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adamo
01-09-13, 21:47
The ancient Oenotrians where among the very first of the barbarian pelasgians to invade Italy. They settled down from an area stretching from southern campania deep into southern Calabria. "Oenotrians" translates roughly to the wine cultivators. The Oenotrians where led by a legendary king named Italos, son of Penelope and Telegonus. Telegonus's mother was Circe. Circe was intimately linked to Colchis (Georgia near Armenia) this is from where she first left for Italy. Circe's son, Telegonus, ruled over the Etruscans or tyrsenoi (was an important figure to them.) as for the Oenotrians of early historical southern Italy. Telegonus founded Tusculum near Rome and praenese as well. Later, the Ionian Greeks would found Reggio Calabria, and a heavy influx of Achaean Greeks would found croton, catanzaro, locris etc.

adamo
01-09-13, 21:52
Remember; Oenotrians are a type of equivalent to Etruscans or iapygians, but are not to be confused with them, as they inhabit a different region of Italy:

The Oenotrians ("tribe led by Oenotrus" or "people from the land of vines - Οἰνωτρία") were an ancient Italic people of unknown origin who inhabited a territory from Paestum to southern Calabria in southern Italy.[1] By the sixth century BC, the Oenotrians had been absorbed with other Italic tribes.[2]
Ancient Greek writers stated that Oenotrians arrived there at the beginning of the Iron Age (11th century BC) from Greece through the Strait of Otranto together with other people of the same ethnic group. According to Pausanias and Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Oenotria was named after Oenotrus, one of the fifty (the youngest) sons of Lycaon who migrated there from Arcadia in Peloponnese.[3][4] According to Antoninus Liberalis, their arrival triggered the migration of the Elymians to Sicily.[citation needed] The settlement of the Greeks with the first stable colonies, such as Metapontum, founded on a native one (Metabon), pushed the Oenotrians inland. From these positions a "wear and tear war" was started off with the Greek colonies, which they plundered more than once.[citation needed] From the 5th century BC onwards, they disappeared under the pressure of the Sabellian people.[citation needed]
A likely derivation of the ethnonym Oenotrian would be the Greek οἶνος (oinos), "wine",[5] as the Oenotrians inhabited a territory rich in vineyards, with Oenotria (or Enotria) being extended to refer to the entirety of Southern Italy.[6][improper synthesis?] Hesychius mentions the word οἴνωτρον (oinōtron), a kind of a vine stake.[7]

evidence for a turkey (lycaonia) to Achaea, Greece and then to southern Italy/Calabria migration.

adamo
01-09-13, 21:57
So there you have a good example of the spread of J2 from the Middle East towards Italy. Oenotrius was one of the fifty sons of Lycaon; Lycaon is derived from Lycaonia (region of south-central Turkey). From here they moved to Arcadia in the Peloponnese as members of a pelasgian branch of "tyrsenian sea people types". Now they either sailed from Greece to Calabria or they crossed directly from Albania via the straight of Otranto; either way they ended up in "Italia" (southern Italy.)

adamo
01-09-13, 22:02
The Greeks, the Etruscans, the Phoenicians, medieval Jews; they all left a middle eastern imprint in their own respective regions of the italian peninsula at differing frequencies, usually between 10 and 30% of the males, in Italy's case. The national level is about 20-25% J2.

LeBrok
01-09-13, 22:05
Remember; Oenotrians are a type of equivalent to Etruscans or iapygians, but are not to be confused with them, as they inhabit a different region of Italy:

The Oenotrians ("tribe led by Oenotrus" or "people from the land of vines - Οἰνωτρία") were an ancient Italic people of unknown origin who inhabited a territory from Paestum to southern Calabria in southern Italy.[1] By the sixth century BC, the Oenotrians had been absorbed with other Italic tribes.[2]
Ancient Greek writers stated that Oenotrians arrived there at the beginning of the Iron Age (11th century BC) from Greece through the Strait of Otranto together with other people of the same ethnic group. According to Pausanias and Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Oenotria was named after Oenotrus, one of the fifty (the youngest) sons of Lycaon who migrated there from Arcadia in Peloponnese.[3][4] According to Antoninus Liberalis, their arrival triggered the migration of the Elymians to Sicily.[citation needed] The settlement of the Greeks with the first stable colonies, such as Metapontum, founded on a native one (Metabon), pushed the Oenotrians inland. From these positions a "wear and tear war" was started off with the Greek colonies, which they plundered more than once.[citation needed] From the 5th century BC onwards, they disappeared under the pressure of the Sabellian people.[citation needed]
A likely derivation of the ethnonym Oenotrian would be the Greek οἶνος (oinos), "wine",[5] as the Oenotrians inhabited a territory rich in vineyards, with Oenotria (or Enotria) being extended to refer to the entirety of Southern Italy.[6][improper synthesis?] Hesychius mentions the word οἴνωτρον (oinōtron), a kind of a vine stake.[7]

evidence for a turkey (lycaonia) to Achaea, Greece and then to southern Italy/Calabria migration.

Please, if you copy someone elses work give a link to original article.

adamo
12-09-13, 04:11
Interesting information on origins of the Oenotrians


11 1 But the most learned of the Roman historians, among whom is Porcius Cato, who compiled with the greatest care the "origins"29 of the Italian cities, p35Gaius Sempronius30 and a great many others, say that they were Greeks, part of those who once dwelt in Achaia, and that they migrated many generations before the Trojan war. But they do not go on to indicate either the Greek tribe to which they belonged or the city from which they removed, or the date or the leader of the colony, or as the result of what turns of fortune they left their mother country; and although they are following a Greek legend, they have cited no Greek historian as their authority. It is uncertain, therefore, what the truth of the matter is. But if what they say is true, the Aborigines can be a colony of no other people but of those who are now called Arcadians; 2 for these were the first of all the Greeks to cross the Ionian Gulf, under the leadership of Oenotrus, the son of Lycaon, and to settle in Italy. This Oenotrus was the fifth from Aezeius and Phoroneus, who were the first kings in the Peloponnesus. For Niobê was the daughter of Phoroneus, and Pelasgus was the son of Niobê and Zeus, it is said; Lycaon was the son of Aezeius and Deïanira was the daughter of Lycaon; Deïanira and Pelasgus were the parents of another Lycaon, whose son Oenotrus was born seventeen generations before the Trojan expedition. This, then, was the time when the Greeks sent the colony into Italy. 3 Oenotrus left Greece because he was dissatisfied with his portion of his father's land; for, as Lycaon had twenty-two sons, it was necessary to divide Arcadia into as many shares. For this reason Oenotrus left the Peloponnesus, p37prepared a fleet, and crossed the Ionian Gulf with Peucetius, one of his brothers. They were accompanied by many of their own people — for this nation is said to have been very populous in early times — and by as many other Greeks as had less land than was sufficient for them. 4 Peucetius landed his people above the Iapygian Promontory, which was the first part of Italy they made, and settled there; and from him the inhabitants of this region were called Peucetians. But Oenotrus with the greater part of the expedition came into the other sea that washes the western regions along the coast of Italy; it was then called the Ausonian Sea, from the Ausonians who dwelt beside it, but after the Tyrrhenians became masters at sea its name was changed to that which it now bears.


12 1 And finding there much land suitable for pasturage and much for tillage, but for the most part unoccupied, and even that which was inhabited not thickly populated, he cleared some of it of the barbarians and built small towns contiguous to one another on the mountains, which was the customary manner of habitation in use among the ancients. And all the land he occupied, which was very extensive, was called Oenotria, and all the people under his command Oenotrians, which was the third name they had borne. For in the reign of Aezeius they were called Aezeians, when Lycaon succeeded to the rule, Lycaonians, and after Oenotrus p39led them into Italy they were for a while called Oenotrians. 2 What I say is supported by the testimony of Sophocles, the tragic poet, in his drama entitled Triptolemus; for he there represents Demeter as informing Triptolemus how large a tract of land he would have to travel over while sowing it with the seeds she had given him. For, after first referring to the eastern part of Italy, which reaches from the Iapygian Promontory to the Sicilian Strait, and then touching upon Sicily on the opposite side, she returns again to the western part of Italy and enumerates the most important nations that inhabit this coast, beginning with the settlement of the Oenotrians. But it is enough to quote merely the iambics in which he says:


"And after this, — first, then, upon the right,
Oenotria wide-outstretched and Tyrrhene Gulf,
And next the Ligurian land shall welcome thee."31
3 And Antiochus of Syracuse,32 a very early historian, in his account of the settlement of Italy, when enumerating the most ancient inhabitants in the order in which each of them held possession of any part of it, says that the first who are reported to have inhabited that country are the Oenotrians. His words are these: "Antiochus, the son of Xenophanes, wrote this account of Italy, which comprises all that is most credible and certain out of p41the ancient tales; this country, which is now called Italy, was formerly possessed by the Oenotrians." Then he relates in what manner they were governed and says that in the course of time Italus came to be their king, after whom they were named Italians; that this man was succeeded by Morges, after whom they were called Morgetes, and that Sicelus, being received as a guest by Morges and setting up a kingdom for himself, divided the nation. After which he adds these words: "Thus those who had been Oenotrians became Sicels, Morgetes and Italians."


13 1 Now let me also show the origin of the Oenotrian race, offering as my witness another of the early historians, Pherecydes of Athens,33 who was a genealogist inferior to none. He thus expresses himself concerning the kings of Arcadia: "Of Pelasgus and Deïanira was born Lycaon; this man married Cyllenê, a Naiad nymph, after whom Mount Cyllenê is named." Then, having given an account of their children and of the places each of them inhabited, he mentions Oenotrus and Peucetius, in these words: "And Oenotrus, after whom are named the Oenotrians who live in Italy, and Peucetius, after whom are named the Peucetians who live on the Ionian Gulf." 2 Such, then, are the accounts given by the ancient poets and writers of legends concerning the places of abode and the origin of the Oenotrians; and on their authority p43I assume that if the Aborigines were in reality a Greek nation, according to the opinion of Cato, Sempronius and many others, they were descendants of these Oenotrians. For I find that the Pelasgians and Cretans and the other nations that lived in Italy came thither afterwards; nor can I discover that any other expedition more ancient than this came from Greece to the western parts of Europe. 3 I am of the opinion that the Oenotrians, besides making themselves masters of many other regions in Italy, some of which they found unoccupied and others but thinly inhabited, also seized a portion of the country of the Umbrians, and that they were called Aborigines from their dwelling on the mountains34 (for it is characteristic of the Arcadians to be fond of the mountains), in the same manner as at Athens some are called Hyperakriori,35 and others Paralioi.36 4 But if any are naturally slow in giving credit to accounts of ancient matters without due examination, let them be slow also in believing the Aborigines to be Ligurians, Umbrians, or any other barbarians, and let them suspend their judgment till they have heard what remains to be told and then determine which opinion out of all is the most probable.

adamo
12-09-13, 04:47
The Oenotrians where a pelasgians group, the Tyrrhenians built towers and had cultural similarities to the Caucasian Mossynoecians (Moschi or Meshketi; a Georgian group) after Meschech, son of Japheth (Georgians and Armenians and ancient Phrygians are associated with Meshech. These Tyrrhenian types may have originally expanded from the Samtskhe-Javakheti region on the turco-Georgian border and would have been high in J-M67. This J-M67, in all Europe, would resurface in north-central Italy at 10%.

adamo
12-09-13, 04:56
When looking at a map of J-M67, it would appear that the highest frequencies are near the Turkey/Georgia border and decrease but are still higher than normal across west-central turkey heading towards the Aegean Sea. The frequencies can be found in 10% of north-central Italians, possibly partly indicative of Etruscan ancestors/origins. As we know, the two most frequent subclades found in Italians are R1b u152 (12% of italian males) and G2a (P15) 11%, a Neolithic middle eastern genetic signal. So Neolithic influence in Italy is definitely present and should not be controversed or debated. The frequencies,oddly,are much lower in Greece.

adamo
12-09-13, 07:58
In other words, the 10% J-M67 in north-central Italy could be a genetic signal of the Etruscans, if they do indeed originate from the Georgia/Armenia region. But the Etruscans must have had other haplogroups as well; north-central Italy also has 10% J2b; a more Hellenic genetic signal.

Sile
12-09-13, 08:00
When looking at a map of J-M67, it would appear that the highest frequencies are near the Turkey/Georgia border and decrease but are still higher than normal across west-central turkey heading towards the Aegean Sea. The frequencies can be found in 10% of north-central Italians, possibly partly indicative of Etruscan ancestors/origins. As we know, the two most frequent subclades found in Italians are R1b u152 (12% of italian males) and G2a (P15) 11%, a Neolithic middle eastern genetic signal. So Neolithic influence in Italy is definitely present and should not be controversed or debated.

I thought they ended up in central and southern Italy. If you believe in Japheth, then the north-central and northeastern italians where from anatolia, the kaskans ( unknown, but G1a/G2a seems the story )and lycians ( mostly J2).
Kaskans being on the black sea and Lycians on southern anatolia but merging with trojans as both spoke luwian language.
Strange thing is, neither are Hittite related...........odd to me.

adamo
12-09-13, 08:07
Who ended up in south-central Italy? J-M92 experiences a high in south-central Italy and again in western Anatolia and a portion of western India. M92 is downstream of M67.

adamo
12-09-13, 08:08
Wait, re-explain me about the kaskians and Lycians

Sile
12-09-13, 08:09
Who ended up in south-central Italy? J-M92 experiences a high in south-central Italy and again in western Anatolia and a portion of western India. M92 is downstream of M67.

The
Oenotrians

Sile
12-09-13, 08:13
Wait, re-explain me about the kaskians and Lycians

Story is they ended up eventually on the padanian plains. It stated the rulers wore these type of Anatolian/thracian headwear .The venetian Doges continued the usage of this type until 1797, but the lombards stopped once the lombards settled in central northern italy.

adamo
12-09-13, 08:23
The Oenotrians, They settled Hisperia, between Paestum and Calabria. To me the evidence is crystal clear on this group of pelasgians; the peucetians who settled Apulia (Iapygians) Along with daunians/messapian fractions as well ( basically all of Apulia); This was Peucetius, along with brother Oenotrus (settled western coast of southern campania down to toe of Calabria) Ultimately, both sons trace down to Lycaon. "Hisperia" was once known as Lucania. Lycaon was a Lycaonian from Lycaonia (southern Anatolia).

adamo
12-09-13, 08:24
The Lombards brought most of Italy's I1 and some of it's R1b S-21 as well.

adamo
12-09-13, 08:28
Lucania late in history ( mid nine-hundreds) Byzantine Empire re-patriation of Lucania:

Lucania was a Byzantine province (theme) in southern Italy that was probably established c. 968, under Emperor Nikephoros II Phokas. It was situated between the two older Byzantine provinces of Longobardia in the east and Calabria in the west, and was formed to encompass the areas in the mostly Lombard-populated theme of Longobardia where Byzantine Greeks from Calabria had settled in the early 10th century (the regions of Latinianon, Lagonegro and Mercurion). Tursi was chosen as the theme's capital and also as the seat of a new metropolitan bishopric to encompass the province. The theme of Lucania was probably under the overall authority of the Catepan of Italy at Bari.
The province corresponds roughly to the modern Italian region of Basilicata.

adamo
12-09-13, 08:29
The name of the region (Lucania) capital was established at Tursi, Ancient Greek "Thyrsoi".

adamo
12-09-13, 08:35
History of the Greek colony of Siris, giving us insight into the Oenotrians and southern Italy:

Siris was a Greek colony which at one time attained to a great amount of wealth and prosperity; however, its history is extremely obscure and uncertain. Its first origin was generally ascribed to a Trojan colony; and, as a proof of this, an ancient statue of Minerva was shown there which claimed to be the true Trojan Palladium.[1] Whatever may have been the origin of this legend, there seems no doubt that Siris was originally a city of the Chones, the native Oenotrian inhabitants of this part of Italy.[2] A legend found in the Etymologicon,[3] according to which the city derived its name from a daughter of Morges, king of the Siculi, evidently points in the same direction, as the Morgetes also were an Oenotrian tribe. From these first settlers it was wrested, as we are told, by a body of Ionian colonists from Colophon, who had fled from their native city to avoid the dominion of the Lydians.[4] The period of this emigration is very uncertain; but it appears probable that it must have taken place not long after the capture of the city by Gyges, king of Lydia, about 700-690 BCE.

adamo
12-09-13, 08:39
So there you have it; legends of Anatolian Lydians in the north, the middle eastern wine cultivators (well,Greeks in a sense) in the south; much exotic genetic influence across many regions of Italy. Trojan colonies at Segesta in western Sicily or parts of southern and north-central Italy; Greeks as well in particular, Greek influence.

adamo
12-09-13, 10:25
First, they where known as the Aezeians under Aiezeus, then they where known as the lycaonians of Lycaonia (south-central turkey) after Lycaon, who led them safely from Anatolia to Arcadia in the Peloponnese (Southern mainland Greece.) From here, Peucetius would end in in northern Apulia (along with Daunus and Messapus) and Oenotrus would end up on the southwestern coast of mainland Italy. They would thereafter change their name from the Lycaonians to the succeeding Oenotrians, after Oenotrus, son of Lycaon, who led his people from southern Greece to southern Italy. As I stated though, southern Italy's Oenotrians where most probably of Anatolian genetic stock with typical middle eastern Y-DNA/MTDNA lineages.

adamo
12-09-13, 10:44
The Iapygians where pelasgians


They spoke the Messapian language since the Messapians themselves were the southernmost tribe of the Iapyges. Their other tribes included the Dauni and the Peucetii.[4]
The name Iapyges is derived from Greek authors who linked the tribe's origin to Daedalus's son Iapyx. They were called Apuli, Salentini (or Sallentini) and Calabri by Roman authors. Iapygians were akin to the Oenotrians, an ancient Italic people who lived in the territory of Basilicata and Northern Calabria.


Information on the Daunians, brothers to Messapians,Peucetians,Oenotrians and any and all other tribes derived from these (pelasgians.)


Daunians
The ethnonym is connected to the name of the wolf, plausibly the totemic animal of this nation. The cult of the wolf was widespread in ancient Italy and was related to the Arcadian mystery cult. In fact daunos means wolf, according to ancient glosses, and is the correspondent of Greek taunos from a Indoeuropean root *dhau- to strangle, meaning literally strangler. Among the Daunians towns one may mention Lucera (Leucaria) and among other nations the ethnonym of the Lucani (Loucanoi) and of that the Hirpini, from another word meaning wolf. The outcome of the Indoeuropean voiced aspirate dh is proper of the Illyrian languages and thus different from the corresponding Latin Faunus and Oscan which is not attested.


Loucanoi is a Daunian ethnonym, and thus a Pelasgian one.


Daunus,Messapus,Peucetius and Oenotrus where probably all sons of Lycaon. The father of Lycaon is Pelasgus; father of all Pelasgians.


It would seem that Telegonus was the father of Italus; father of the before mentioned people's. Telegonus also held a certain cultural sway on the Etruscans; he was fathered by Odysseus of Ithaca and Circe. Circe came from the Caucasus (Armenia/Georgia) region.

dominique_nuit
05-05-17, 15:55
Hello Adamo -- Interesting thread -- Wouldn't it make more sense to theorize the Oenotrians as G2A?