PDA

View Full Version : McCain-Obama meeting on Syria



Mmuller
02-09-13, 15:58
Obama is meeting today with one of his biggest critics -- Sen. John McCain, to try and get some help making his case on Syria. McCain said he believes that in the end the resolution will pass because its failure would hurt the president's standing abroad.

"If Congress overrules a decision of the President of the United States on an issue of national security, that could set a catastrophic precedent in the future," said McCain.

In any case Obama will try to persuade Sen. McCain to lobby this resolution through the Congress. If it doesn't work there will be another way out - Superman will return and help the US (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-HXQZrdWQiEk/UiR_wRItwSI/AAAAAAAAAFE/jmgakaxTYYk/s1600/SUPERMAN2.jpg)))
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-HXQZrdWQiEk/UiR_wRItwSI/AAAAAAAAAFE/jmgakaxTYYk/s1600/SUPERMAN2.jpg

nordicquarreler
04-09-13, 07:25
My apologies to the rest of the world and to the innocent residents of Syria that will be wounded or killed by an ill advised attack by the U.S. I am for a strong Israel and feel it should be protected, but this is... sad. Jumping in a civil war that we have no business in is plain dumb. McCain should have learned from his terrible experiences in Vietnam that man should not strive to kill his brother. He has selected a pathway of lower vibrational energy rather than the higher path of enlightenment. If this attack happens, I am truly sorry for the hurt that will occur.

Mmuller
04-09-13, 08:38
After meeting with Obama Republican hawk Sen. Lindsey Graham said that "If we lost a vote in Congress dealing with the chemical weapons being used in Syria, what effect would that have on Iran and their nuclear program?"


It is clear that the US consider Syria as bridgehead in order to make a reality of following actions against Iran, isn't it?

Sile
04-09-13, 10:57
My apologies to the rest of the world and to the innocent residents of Syria that will be wounded or killed by an ill advised attack by the U.S. I am for a strong Israel and feel it should be protected, but this is... sad. Jumping in a civil war that we have no business in is plain dumb. McCain should have learned from his terrible experiences in Vietnam that man should not strive to kill his brother. He has selected a pathway of lower vibrational energy rather than the higher path of enlightenment. If this attack happens, I am truly sorry for the hurt that will occur.

The U.S will be roped in again, when will they learn. Besides who do you support, assad or a sect that treats half its citizens as less than the value of a goat

greyd
04-09-13, 14:51
Oh man, this whole thing's going into a desaster... Thousands of people have to suffer there, most of them innocent even if some of them are guilty in some way... :(

LeBrok
04-09-13, 17:06
After meeting with Obama Republican hawk Sen. Lindsey Graham said that "If we lost a vote in Congress dealing with the chemical weapons being used in Syria, what effect would that have on Iran and their nuclear program?"


It is clear that the US consider Syria as bridgehead in order to make a reality of following actions against Iran, isn't it?





Nope. Obama obviously wants out, and the best way is to pull the Cameron trick. That's why there will be vote over this motion in Congress. At least there is 50 percent chance for No vote and avoiding military action, versus "keeping his word" and punishing Assad for using gas.

Fire Haired
05-09-13, 00:27
Mmuller can u please put down the sick picture of the gay old man and super man. It isn't funny.

I am so sick of Americans who just debate over this and think conservative vs liberal. We need to stop thinking about philosophy's and how complicated it will be, We need to be strong and defeat Syria government and not let any more messed up corrupt governments and Muslim extremist to take office we need to take control the mid east has been given to many 2nd chances we cant trust them with their own government. When are panza gay Europeans finally gonna help they are still resting after WW2. America would not have to pay so much money if we actulley worked as the UNITED NATIONS we need to fight together if we had equal European and American troops then add in Russian and Chinese think about what an incredible fighting force for justice around the world that would be.

And when will we realize

bad guys= Russia, China, North Korea, all communists really, and Muslim world

Good guys: USA, Europe(not Russia), South Korea, Japan, all free 1st world countries

i would say that there are many corrupt nations in sub shara Africa too and not sure if we can trust all of latin america. I am sick of people saying these wars were 10,000's of people are dying are not our business. We need to work together to end all these non sense wars mainly in the Muslim world.

Why does Obama wait till chemical weapons i think it is pretty bad over 100,000 people have died from guns, bombs, and knifes. It is so stupid how they go by text book stuff it does not matter of assad used chemical weapons or not why are people so stuck on that. Why does Obama wait till now we should have invaded 100,000 deaths ago.

Fire Haired
05-09-13, 00:34
Oh man, this whole thing's going into a desaster... Thousands of people have to suffer there, most of them innocent even if some of them are guilty in some way... :(

over 100,000 have already died in Syria it is about time the UNITED NATIONS not just america end the war. If we did this100,000 deaths ago 10,000 of lives would have been safed. I think it is sick and wrong that powerful western nations watch people suffer around the world in non sense wars and say well it is not our business and have stupid philosophy debates. When in Europe, Russia, ad China gonna help to end this stuff with america. A huge reason the UNITED nations began was because of world two and to work together stop wars like this and america has been spending all the money and fighting the wars plus we give away more money than any other country.

Fire Haired
05-09-13, 00:43
The U.S will be roped in again, when will they learn. Besides who do you support, assad or a sect that treats half its citizens as less than the value of a goat

US will be roped again?? We kicked Saddem's A** in 2 weeks and he had the third largest military in the world. We can do better in Syria. And when will we be the UNITED NATIONS why is it only america helping poor people like Syrians. Were was Europe in the Korean, Vietnam, and recent wars in the Muslim world. I know what ur thinking okay. Vietnam was a unmoral war. No it was not we fought for freedom of south Vietnamese from evil communist north Vietnamese who were conquering them but people have been brain washed to think america was the bad guy. I think we did not fight to win the war we killed more soldiers won more battles but we never planned on actulley winning because it could cause world war 3.

It seems to me the UNITED nations was formed to stop stuff like this because of world war 2. and it seems only america is following up with that. We need to realize over 100,000!!!! Syrians have died. And all we do is debate for months. While 10,000's of people are dying. I am so ashamed of how america has reacted to this and how late we are in invading who cares if he used chemical weapons or not. And this time we need to honestly regulate their government don't let more Muslim extremist or corrupt secular people like saddem take control.

LeBrok
05-09-13, 02:09
We need to realize over 100,000!!!! Syrians have died.
I'm telling you people are nuts. Just to be against America, they lament possible civilians casualties, disregarding 100k killed already and more to come.
They don't really care how many will die, but you will hear about every death if they are killed by Americans.

Hey Mmuller, I didn't hear you complaining, even a bit, about Assad gassing his own people. Was it ok with you?

sparkey
05-09-13, 04:02
And when will we realize

bad guys= Russia, China, North Korea, all communists really, and Muslim world

Good guys: USA, Europe(not Russia), South Korea, Japan, all free 1st world countries

Hopefully never, because worldwide national relationships are far more complicated than that. Putting "Muslim world" under "bad guys" is particularly baffling if you're supporting a strike on Syria, considering that you'll be hopping in with some interesting bedfellows if you do so:

New "good" guys: Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Ahrar ash-Sham, Hamas, Chechen rebels like those who inspired the Tsarnaevs, and even Al-Qaeda

The Syrian Civil War has much more to do with Shia vs. Sunni than it does dictatorship vs. democracy. Letting the rebels win may bring somebody worse than Assad to power. And that's not to mention the vengeance that would ensue! I would hate to be an Alawite if Assad loses the war. Even the Melkites could be wiped out. This is way more serious than playing good guys/bad guys.

LeBrok
05-09-13, 05:22
Hopefully never, because worldwide national relationships are far more complicated than that. Putting "Muslim world" under "bad guys" is particularly baffling if you're supporting a strike on Syria, considering that you'll be hopping in with some interesting bedfellows if you do so:

New "good" guys: Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Ahrar ash-Sham, Hamas, Chechen rebels like those who inspired the Tsarnaevs, and even Al-Qaeda

The Syrian Civil War has much more to do with Shia vs. Sunni than it does dictatorship vs. democracy. Letting the rebels win may bring somebody worse than Assad to power. And that's not to mention the vengeance that would ensue! I would hate to be an Alawite if Assad loses the war. Even the Melkites could be wiped out. This is way more serious than playing good guys/bad guys.
I'm in complete agreement. I was just hoping for a "smack on Assad's head" for using poisonous gas. Otherwise I don't have sides in this war. It seems that most western leaders and public don't know what to do with that either.
I guess it will be an internal affair to the end. Well, maybe except short time bombing (to punish Assad) if Congress approves such action for Obama.
I wonder what pissed off Putin will do in revenge against west? Oil prices are going up?

nordicquarreler
05-09-13, 06:43
I don't see how Assad would have ever used gas knowing that we would be forced to act. Does not compute. Rand Paul is the only sane leader we have in the U.S. This entire episode doesn't smell right to me. What if the global economy is much, much worse than the pundits are allowed to admit publicly... and this generated war is a way for the elites to relieve pressure from a restless and angry populace?

Mmuller
05-09-13, 09:16
I'm telling you people are nuts. Just to be against America, they lament possible civilians casualties, disregarding 100k killed already and more to come.
They don't really care how many will die, but you will hear about every death if they are killed by Americans.

Hey Mmuller, I didn't hear you complaining, even a bit, about Assad gassing his own people. Was it ok with you?

Have you got evidence related to Assad gassing? I think, you haven't. We watched only fabricated footage on youtube. It is unthinkable to persuade society that Assad used chemical weapon against own people.

Nobody1
05-09-13, 14:16
The way i see it, is that there is no "Good and Bad" in Syria; There is only Bad and Worse;
So what ever the Military strike will achieve and to whom ever it will be helpful - it will not make anything better for the Syrians; Lebanon will prob. be part of the Syrian civil war in a few months as well;

The only Good thing the UN, EU and US can do at this moment is help the millions of refugees that want to flee Syria and the millions that are currently on the run;

Mmuller
05-09-13, 14:35
LeBrok...Have you got evidence related to Assad gassing? I think, you haven't. We watched only fabricated footage on youtube. It is unthinkable to persuade society that Assad used chemical weapon against own people.

Ike
05-09-13, 15:52
Except for the fact that Assad is not "gassing" his own people, but a bunch of foreign marauders, rapists and terrorists.

FBS
05-09-13, 16:19
I don't see how Assad would have ever used gas knowing that we would be forced to act. Does not compute. Rand Paul is the only sane leader we have in the U.S. This entire episode doesn't smell right to me. What if the global economy is much, much worse than the pundits are allowed to admit publicly... and this generated war is a way for the elites to relieve pressure from a restless and angry populace?
Well, I have been in Kosovo during the Milosevic regime, and the war, and I have witnessed myself that tyrants and their followers become monsters and their intelligence diminishes in war times. Milosevic with his troops were being bombed from above and they continued doing their "job" below. We on the ground thought that he was stupid and not intelligent since he was under the loop of entire world, and that Milosevics' calculation, to create a new reality on the ground would give him an edge, was totally stupid. But we learned to not underestimate the stupidity of the tyrants and criminals, they will do whatever it takes to kill those "rats" that are creating them problems. The other side is always considered "non human". Hitler was stupid as well otherwise he would have succeeded.

LeBrok
05-09-13, 17:10
LeBrok...Have you got evidence related to Assad gassing? I think, you haven't. We watched only fabricated footage on youtube. It is unthinkable to persuade society that Assad used chemical weapon against own people.
Have you ever learned about any tyrants killing thousands or even millions of their own citizens?

FBS
05-09-13, 18:50
Our dear beloved Idi Amin who loved his people so much that he threw them to crocodiles. He killed 300,000 people (estimated), expeled all the asians and devastated the state economy. Tyrants are dumb, unfortunatelu they create huge problems since the smart people try to use logic and common sense in understandig them while they push for their narcisistic agenda.

Fire Haired
05-09-13, 22:34
Hopefully never, because worldwide national relationships are far more complicated than that. Putting "Muslim world" under "bad guys" is particularly baffling if you're supporting a strike on Syria, considering that you'll be hopping in with some interesting bedfellows if you do so:

New "good" guys: Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Ahrar ash-Sham, Hamas, Chechen rebels like those who inspired the Tsarnaevs, and even Al-Qaeda

The Syrian Civil War has much more to do with Shia vs. Sunni than it does dictatorship vs. democracy. Letting the rebels win may bring somebody worse than Assad to power. And that's not to mention the vengeance that would ensue! I would hate to be an Alawite if Assad loses the war. Even the Melkites could be wiped out. This is way more serious than playing good guys/bad guys.

I agree that worldwide relations are more complicated but what i said is pretty much true. I guess we need to keep good relations but our governments cant lie and act like we think china is our friend and wants the best for the western world or that their government treats their people right. Right now the whole Muslim world seems to be ruled by extreme muslims or corrupt people like assad and saddam. Plus so many hate the western world.

Fire Haired
05-09-13, 22:39
I don't see how Assad would have ever used gas knowing that we would be forced to act. Does not compute. Rand Paul is the only sane leader we have in the U.S. This entire episode doesn't smell right to me. What if the global economy is much, much worse than the pundits are allowed to admit publicly... and this generated war is a way for the elites to relieve pressure from a restless and angry populace?

Doesn't matter if he used gas why are people so stuck on that. Over 100,000 people have died because of this war it is about time the UNITED nations not just america go down there and end the war and stop any other corrpupt government from taking control of syria. So this does not happen again. I think it is so dumb how people are stuck on chemical weapons sure it is a horrible death but so is getting shot or bombed which has happened to 10,000s of people.

Fire Haired
05-09-13, 22:41
The way i see it, is that there is no "Good and Bad" in Syria; There is only Bad and Worse;
So what ever the Military strike will achieve and to whom ever it will be helpful - it will not make anything better for the Syrians; Lebanon will prob. be part of the Syrian civil war in a few months as well;

The only Good thing the UN, EU and US can do at this moment is help the millions of refugees that want to flee Syria and the millions that are currently on the run;

I dis agree america took down Saddem in 2 weeks. If the rest of the united nations helps america there wont be a country spending unbelievable amounts of money which is what america is going to have to do if we fight alone. We need to end the war and stop anyother corrupt leader from taking control of syria.

Fire Haired
05-09-13, 22:41
LeBrok...Have you got evidence related to Assad gassing? I think, you haven't. We watched only fabricated footage on youtube. It is unthinkable to persuade society that Assad used chemical weapon against own people.

WHO CARES!!!! over 100,000 people have died doesn't matter if he used gas or not.

Ike
06-09-13, 00:33
Right now the whole Muslim world seems to be ruled by extreme muslims or corrupt people like assad and saddam. Plus so many hate the western world.

:useless: Especially when we know that Assad's legit government is actually under the attack of muslim fundamentalist rebels. Would you just care to read the first paragraph, and than stop talking nonsense, on this thread. You're so uninformed that it hurts my ears....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/01/rand-paul-syria_n_3852644.html

Fire Haired
06-09-13, 01:49
:useless: Especially when we know that Assad's legit government is actually under the attack of muslim fundamentalist rebels. Would you just care to read the first paragraph, and than stop talking nonsense, on this thread. You're so uninformed that it hurts my ears....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/01/rand-paul-syria_n_3852644.html
What i am saying is true are u really going to argue muslims are not causing a bunch of nonsense wars and killing innocent people dont u remeber 9/11. I know assad is under attck by extreme muslims that is why i have been saying the UN should control their government. We cant let more corrupt things that cause 10,000's of deaths to happen agian. We cant even really trust the citzens because they are brain washed and more are extremist than u would think.

So what if assad is defending Christians probably what that means is he doesn't want to kill them all like most mid eastern leaders. Kind of like how northerners in the american civil war did not exactly want equal rights for black people they just didnt like slavery. U cant get away from the evil and corruption in the mid east.

I am not saying all muslims are evil but what i am saying is the muslim world is maybe the biggest threat right now because it is controlled by corrupt and evil people. and why isn't Obama and the UNITED nations invading iran yet why wait right before they are about to get nuclear weapons. Were they ever taught to not wait till the last minute they have already made that mistake with syria.

Ike
06-09-13, 11:09
What i am saying is true are u really going to argue muslims are not causing a bunch of nonsense wars and killing innocent people dont u remeber 9/11.
OK, some of them are fundamentalists.



I know assad is under attck by extreme muslims that is why i have been saying the UN should control their government.

:confused2: So, when US was under the attack of extreme muslims(9/11), UN should have taken control over their government?



We cant let more corrupt things that cause 10,000's of deaths to happen agian. We cant even really trust the citzens because they are brain washed and more are extremist than u would think.

You realise that the rebel army forces have nothing to do with actual Syrian rebels, and that they are organized from abroad, and that they are coming from all over the world to make havoc and raise chaos in Syria?



So what if assad is defending Christians probably what that means is he doesn't want to kill them all like most mid eastern leaders.


He is not defending them, but he defended them for decades. Before him they were really jeopardized, where was UN and US then? He managed to get all Syrian people to live together, without killing each other. Some undemocratic measures had to be taken in order for violence to stop. And it worked so far, until democrats stated calling for freedom - and we saw what happened. Everyone in the world (including some Syrians) suddenly feel free it's OK to go to Syria and kill their citizens. That's a kind of freedom that is good for Syria? Maybe we should kill all the Syrians (both muslim and christians), cause that would solve the problem?




I am not saying all muslims are evil but what i am saying is the muslim world is maybe the biggest threat right now because it is controlled by corrupt and evil people.


Agree. UN should make a belt around Syria, and make evil mercenaries stop coming in.



and why isn't Obama and the UNITED nations invading iran yet why wait right before they are about to get nuclear weapons. Were they ever taught to not wait till the last minute they have already made that mistake with syria.

I agree, UN should have invaded US in 1943. before they made their first atomic bomb. Also should have invaded SSSR for the same reasons, and then UK, France and all others...World would be much better place without nuclear weapons.

But it didn't happen :/ I think there are 15 countries now in possession of Nukes, and more of them are to come. There is nothing UN can do now. It was a good method in the olden days, but they can't control it anymore. In like 50-100 years, half of the world will have them.

Luan
06-09-13, 18:48
Something should be done for sure.

Garrick
06-09-13, 23:10
Hopefully never, because worldwide national relationships are far more complicated than that. Putting "Muslim world" under "bad guys" is particularly baffling if you're supporting a strike on Syria, considering that you'll be hopping in with some interesting bedfellows if you do so:

New "good" guys: Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Ahrar ash-Sham, Hamas, Chechen rebels like those who inspired the Tsarnaevs, and even Al-Qaeda

The Syrian Civil War has much more to do with Shia vs. Sunni than it does dictatorship vs. democracy. Letting the rebels win may bring somebody worse than Assad to power. And that's not to mention the vengeance that would ensue! I would hate to be an Alawite if Assad loses the war. Even the Melkites could be wiped out. This is way more serious than playing good guys/bad guys.

Yes, the problem is complex. There are no easy answers. I wonder whether it is better for complex problems to be solved fast methods or otherwise. Fast methods lead to a quick solutions but time may show that quick fixes can be most wrong. On the other hand, if the problem does not solve it escalates. I think that the way to solve complex problems must be improved.

Fire Haired
07-09-13, 16:10
OK, some of them are fundamentalists.

Tue but it is a major problem that is what u need to realize one of the biggest in the world. And causing 1,00's and 1,00's of deaths every year and our national security is always on alert spending money because of them.



:confused2: So, when US was under the attack of extreme muslims(9/11), UN should have taken control over their government?

US Syria two very diff countries. No way the needed to some how retaliate.



You realise that the rebel army forces have nothing to do with actual Syrian rebels, and that they are organized from abroad, and that they are coming from all over the world to make havoc and raise chaos in Syria?

I dont care my point was that no matter what we cant trust the mid east. When we take down one evil person another one comes up they wont stop killing each other. So i think we need to just say we cant trust u with ur own government. I know this sounds crazy but i think the US should make mid eastern colnies to stop the killings and threat to the rest of the world that is the only solution. Think about it we go over there take down another evil government another more evil one will always pop up. We take down some terriost 10,000,000 more a born the next year fighting a war against terrorist is kind of stupid it is not a real war their like insects. There is no hope changed the minds of people in the mid east so what other solution is there.




He is not defending them, but he defended them for decades. Before him they were really jeopardized, where was UN and US then? He managed to get all Syrian people to live together, without killing each other. Some undemocratic measures had to be taken in order for violence to stop. And it worked so far, until democrats stated calling for freedom - and we saw what happened. Everyone in the world (including some Syrians) suddenly feel free it's OK to go to Syria and kill their citizens. That's a kind of freedom that is good for Syria? Maybe we should kill all the Syrians (both muslim and christians), cause that would solve the problem?

Why is this even a issue if he defended Christians that is a good thing Muslims have been slaughtering Christians since the begging of their religion.




I agree, UN should have invaded US in 1943. before they made their first atomic bomb. Also should have invaded SSSR for the same reasons, and then UK, France and all others...World would be much better place without nuclear weapons.

But it didn't happen :/ I think there are 15 countries now in possession of Nukes, and more of them are to come. There is nothing UN can do now. It was a good method in the olden days, but they can't control it anymore. In like 50-100 years, half of the world will have them.

Now ur sounding like a total idiot. It is a competently diff situation with those countries except USSR. We gave consonant warnings to japense cities people to leave before we nuked them we needed to do it to end the war. We dont want to conquer countries for no reason look at our foreign policy all we want to do is help even with Muslims who want to kill us all. America and Iran two very very very very very diff countries.A country like iran which says they want to kill all jews and supporst assad compared to a country like america which wants to help people.

Ike
07-09-13, 17:48
Tue but it is a major problem that is what u need to realize one of the biggest in the world. And causing 1,00's and 1,00's of deaths every year and our national security is always on alert spending money because of them.


Agree. Something should be done about them, but I don't think that wars or retaliations against some poor civilians are answers. In the end, someone is selling them all that guns, ammo and equipment. Although, when I think better, where did these (http://dadanewsdaily.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/rebel_souvenirs.jpg) guys got money for these weapons? By selling those souvenirs?!



US Syria two very diff countries. No way the needed to some how retaliate.

You should not treat another country unequal just because it's not your country.




I dont care my point was that no matter what we cant trust the mid east. When we take down one evil person another one comes up they wont stop killing each other. So i think we need to just say we cant trust u with ur own government. I know this sounds crazy but i think the US should make mid eastern colnies to stop the killings and threat to the rest of the world that is the only solution. Think about it we go over there take down another evil government another more evil one will always pop up. We take down some terriost 10,000,000 more a born the next year fighting a war against terrorist is kind of stupid it is not a real war their like insects. There is no hope changed the minds of people in the mid east so what other solution is there.


I don't think they are all to blame. Those are usually fundamentalists and religious freaks that are like 1% of population. OK, one percent out of 100 million is 1.000.000 terrorists, but they are also terrorizing their own people. What bothers me the most is that US is somehow always on the side of terrorists, with the excuse that the current govenment is not democratic enough. US always end up on the side where weapons trade, drugs, corruption and human trafficking is a major issue.



Why is this even a issue if he defended Christians that is a good thing Muslims have been slaughtering Christians since the begging of their religion.

It is an issue because US now supports the other side. Like WTF?




Now ur sounding like a total idiot. It is a competently diff situation with those countries except USSR. We gave consonant warnings to japense cities people to leave before we nuked them we needed to do it to end the war. We dont want to conquer countries for no reason look at our foreign policy all we want to do is help even with Muslims who want to kill us all. America and Iran two very very very very very diff countries.A country like iran which says they want to kill all jews and supporst assad compared to a country like america which wants to help people.

From my point of view you are all terrorists. You're all using oppressive methods to enforce your way of life, out of your district.

Fire Haired
07-09-13, 19:01
You should not treat another country unequal just because it's not your country.

When my country was literally built on justice and wants to help people not blow them up i can.





I don't think they are all to blame. Those are usually fundamentalists and religious freaks that are like 1% of population. OK, one percent out of 100 million is 1.000.000 terrorists, but they are also terrorizing their own people. What bothers me the most is that US is somehow always on the side of terrorists, with the excuse that the current govenment is not democratic enough. US always end up on the side where weapons trade, drugs, corruption and human trafficking is a major issue.

It is western people built on hate agianst whites and tradtional westerners. Because of so many bad things we have done recently and how powerful we have been. since the 1960's people have started not to just say some things westerns have done is bad but they have a hate for westerners. So it is always the brown man who is the victim to them. So they cant stand saying that MUslims are very corrupt and conquered people in a worse way than the western world did. So they try tp defend them and say we stero type. We have pretty good reasons. To i live in every muslim area there is actulley one of the biggest muslim communites in america is my neighborhood. And my family has talked with a guy from Iraq we worked for Sadem hussian and his job was like their version of CIA. He left to america with his family because of constant death threats from other muslims partly because of how secular they were and people know who he was. He said in the Mosques of america all they preach is JIhad and anti america that is why he does not go. and he showed us the type of clothing extreme muslim men wear and they actulley plan own over throwing america within. This is not a nagry white person from Kentucky this is a muslim from iraq saying these things. I know most are normal people but extremist have the power and are one of our biggest threats we need to stop caring about feelings and liberal agenda and anti white spirit.



It is an issue because US now supports the other side. Like WTF?

I don't know how true that is. So many of our founding fathers were strong Christians. People don't like to admit it but america in many ways was created by WASPS very evangelical Christians. Even though in modern media and modern establishment in the western world is kind of anti Christian. They still want human rights and wont side with Muslims killing Christians.





From my point of view you are all terrorists. You're all using oppressive methods to enforce your way of life, out of your district.

We are all terriotsit? look at what america wants to do for the world all we want to do is help. We dont say death to all Jews or all Muslims. Our government was made not to make mistakes corrupt governments like in the mid east do. U must be out of ur mind to think it is the same sutuation with America Uk and other countires with nukes except communist ones.

Ike
07-09-13, 21:10
When my country was literally built on justice and wants to help people not blow them up i can.
Was also built on the work of black people.



It is western people built on hate agianst whites and tradtional westerners. Because of so many bad things we have done recently and how powerful we have been. since the 1960's people have started not to just say some things westerns have done is bad but they have a hate for westerners. So it is always the brown man who is the victim to them. So they cant stand saying that MUslims are very corrupt and conquered people in a worse way than the western world did. So they try tp defend them and say we stero type. We have pretty good reasons. To i live in every muslim area there is actulley one of the biggest muslim communites in america is my neighborhood. And my family has talked with a guy from Iraq we worked for Sadem hussian and his job was like their version of CIA. He left to america with his family because of constant death threats from other muslims partly because of how secular they were and people know who he was. He said in the Mosques of america all they preach is JIhad and anti america that is why he does not go. and he showed us the type of clothing extreme muslim men wear and they actulley plan own over throwing america within. This is not a nagry white person from Kentucky this is a muslim from iraq saying these things. I know most are normal people but extremist have the power and are one of our biggest threats we need to stop caring about feelings and liberal agenda and anti white spirit.

I agree. You should deal with those kind of people. Can't let terrorists destroy your society. Muslim religion may be at medieval stage right now (like Christians in the time of Crusades) and we can't wait for centuries for them to outgrow their adolescent issues.



We are all terriotsit? look at what america wants to do for the world all we want to do is help. We dont say death to all Jews or all Muslims. Our government was made not to make mistakes corrupt governments like in the mid east do. U must be out of ur mind to think it is the same sutuation with America Uk and other countires with nukes except communist ones.

OK. Get a world map, and color in red all the countries that US waged war and you'll get a clearer picture. I really think that, and I'm not out of my mind.
I'm also getting infractions for what I'm saying, and I can't help it if it hurts someone to hear the truth.

Fire Haired
08-09-13, 04:49
Was also built on the work of black people.

That is extremely unaccurte historically. Yes for a long time america i guess later only the south had slaves but they are not what built the country they were apart of it. I understand america has made mistakes. But u can deny what our country was built on which is not to make the same mistakes every tribe and nation has in human history. Modern free democracy was really spread by America we were the first to make a modern democracy. I know u have alot of bias against america but u need to open ur eyes at what good things we have done.




I agree. You should deal with those kind of people. Can't let terrorists destroy your society. Muslim religion may be at medieval stage right now (like Christians in the time of Crusades) and we can't wait for centuries for them to outgrow their adolescent issues.

For one thing humans are humans we are not any diff than we were in the mid ages. Also Christianity never changes it did not develop into something new after the mid ages, Sure we had corrupt evil leaders in Europe since really the Roman empire who say they are real Christians but that does not represent the Christianity. U have made it clear u have a anto Christian anti America spirit which is total 1960';s modern liberalism. Which was in reaction to bad parts of traditional western society but went way to far.




OK. Get a world map, and color in red all the countries that US waged war and you'll get a clearer picture. I really think that, and I'm not out of my mind.
I'm also getting infractions for what I'm saying, and I can't help it if it hurts someone to hear the truth.

Please Stop trying to pose america as this big bad guy. We help other nations we fought in Vietnam for freedom of south veitmanese and a evil communist government which was conquering them yet i hear so many people including my teachers act as if america was the villain. U are wrong if u think america is a evil country. The only un justice wars i can think of are ones with native Americans which i dont know that much about.

Ike
08-09-13, 05:20
That is extremely unaccurte historically. Yes for a long time america i guess later only the south had slaves but they are not what built the country they were apart of it. I understand america has made mistakes. But u can deny what our country was built on which is not to make the same mistakes every tribe and nation has in human history. Modern free democracy was really spread by America we were the first to make a modern democracy. I know u have alot of bias against america but u need to open ur eyes at what good things we have done.

It is accurate, and it's funny in the context of your previous statement : "My country was literally built on justice". And why do we talk about democracy anyway? It's just a buzzword, a semantic diversion.




For one thing humans are humans we are not any diff than we were in the mid ages. Also Christianity never changes it did not develop into something new after the mid ages, Sure we had corrupt evil leaders in Europe since really the Roman empire who say they are real Christians but that does not represent the Christianity. U have made it clear u have a anto Christian anti America spirit which is total 1960';s modern liberalism. Which was in reaction to bad parts of traditional western society but went way to far.


I have a lot more antis in my spirit. Those are just 2 out of 1000. Third is for that modern liberal thing.



Please Stop trying to pose america as this big bad guy. We help other nations we fought in Vietnam for freedom of south veitmanese and a evil communist government which was conquering them yet i hear so many people including my teachers act as if america was the villain. U are wrong if u think america is a evil country. The only un justice wars i can think of are ones with native Americans which i dont know that much about.

I am not trying to pose America as anything. US is doing it themselves. US fought in Vietnam for freedom? :startled: OMG. Just like in Libya and is planning in Syria?

'Evil communists' is another verbal diversion. It has no real meaning, nor does it correlate. There is evil, there are communists, there are democrats and there are others. Everyone can be evil. 'Evil communist' of 20th century is the same paradigm as 'flying female witch' from the 15th.

Alan
08-09-13, 12:08
A few air strikes to take out the Jets and other planes of Assad + chemical depots this would be helpful but then they also need to target a few of the extremist rebels.

Alan
08-09-13, 15:35
The U.S will be roped in again, when will they learn. sides who do you support, assad or a sect that treats half its citizens as less than the value of a goat

The extremist rebels are indeed no option but Assad is not much different.

Even if people did not agree the only real solution for Syria is dividing it into several states for Druze, Kurds, Allawites and Sunni Arabs. Christians are scattered through the whole country but there seems to be a dominance in Eastern Syria like Deir ez Zor.

Ike
08-09-13, 16:28
Not much different ? I didn't see people tortured or dying in Syria before the terrorists started their "democratic revolution".

McCain is hoping that Russia, China and Iran are bluffing. He plays poker with WW3 in stake. We should trust his judgment?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo9Nmeyz5lo

Fire Haired
08-09-13, 19:09
It is accurate, and it's funny in the context of your previous statement : "My country was literally built on justice". And why do we talk about democracy anyway? It's just a buzzword, a semantic diversion.

JUst stop. compare modern america to anceint rome and modern muslim countries u can see the differnce. america is the reason that type of government is wide spread and why we dont see napoleans and hitlers in europe anymore.


I am not trying to pose America as anything. US is doing it themselves. US fought in Vietnam for freedom? :startled: OMG. Just like in Libya and is planning in Syria?

We fought for freedom of south veitmanese from a corrupt soviet supported communist government to kill and conquer them.


'Evil communists' is another verbal diversion. It has no real meaning, nor does it correlate. There is evil, there are communists, there are democrats and there are others. Everyone can be evil. 'Evil communist' of 20th century is the same paradigm as 'flying female witch' from the 15th.

Communist sure is a form of government which has resulted in evill countries. Look ate north korea, china(breaking into Us military systems), soviet union, Russia(giving syrian government weapons trying to help Iran get nukes), cuba. U know what i mean.

Alan
09-09-13, 00:17
Not much different ? I didn't see people tortured or dying in Syria before the terrorists started their "democratic revolution".

McCain is hoping that Russia, China and Iran are bluffing. He plays poker with WW3 in stake. We should trust his judgment?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo9Nmeyz5lo

It is because you weren't interested in seeing them than because as far as my knowledge goes the first ever torture was started by Assad forces towards Sunnis who supported the Rebels and I saw a few videos of it back than. The first extreme brutal torture video I saw from Syria was Assad Soldiers slowly stabbing Rebel supporters to death with knifes. Now it has reached a point where both sides are killing each other with no mercy. And with Al Qaida linked extremists from other countries arriving in Syria the Rebels became even more brutal.

look out for it on Youtube there are quite allot.

I already said but will repeat Rebels are no option but a Syria under Assad rule again is no choice either because for hell you can be sure. If the Rebels win they will massacre the Allawites and if Assad wins he will do the same in revenge.

It might be because I am a Kurd myself but the only side which I see has still kept their human morals and shows slightest democratic signal is the Kurdish side.


Syria is full of small prison cells where people were tortured for decades.

Ike
09-09-13, 03:30
JUst stop. compare modern america to anceint rome and modern muslim countries u can see the differnce. america is the reason that type of government is wide spread and why we dont see napoleans and hitlers in europe anymore.
If you want to call yourself righteous, you should not see the difference. Justice is blind. Either you're a man of law, or you're a politician.



We fought for freedom of south veitmanese from a corrupt soviet supported communist government to kill and conquer them.

Yeah, and before that there were French fighting there, and before that there was WWII. If you just stopped for a second and gave that people a rest, I guess it would be far better for them. Instead of that you gave them 35 years of almost continuous war and they were honored to meet Agent Orange.



Communist sure is a form of government which has resulted in evill countries. Look ate north korea, china(breaking into Us military systems), soviet union, Russia(giving syrian government weapons trying to help Iran get nukes), cuba. U know what i mean.

Yeah, Chinese are so evil, they won't let Americans drive their ships through their seas. Very evil. BTW, WTH are US looking for in the Chines seas? What would you do if you saw couple of Chinese battle ships 20 miles from the coasts of California?

I also know a couple of US companies that sold weapons/equipment to Hitler, so I wouldn't rush into that subject if I were you.



It is because you weren't interested in seeing them than because as far as my knowledge goes the first ever torture was started by Assad forces towards Sunnis who supported the Rebels and I saw a few videos of it back than.

I'd like to see how US would react if a group of Sunni rebels claimed a part of Oregon. I'm sure they wouldn't live that much to be tortured. It's a pure hypocrisy how NATO countries solve their own problems, and how they treat others for the same things.

Alan
09-09-13, 11:43
If you want to call yourself righteous, you should not see the difference. Justice is blind. Either you're a man of law, or you're a politician.


Yeah, and before that there were French fighting there, and before that there was WWII. If you just stopped for a second and gave that people a rest, I guess it would be far better for them. Instead of that you gave them 35 years of almost continuous war and they were honored to meet Agent Orange.



Yeah, Chinese are so evil, they won't let Americans drive their ships through their seas. Very evil. BTW, WTH are US looking for in the Chines seas? What would you do if you saw couple of Chinese battle ships 20 miles from the coasts of California?

I also know a couple of US companies that sold weapons/equipment to Hitler, so I wouldn't rush into that subject if I were you.




I'd like to see how US would react if a group of Sunni rebels claimed a part of Oregon. I'm sure they wouldn't live that much to be tortured. It's a pure hypocrisy how NATO countries solve their own problems, and how they treat others for the same things.

I think it depends on the point of view. I would like to see how the majority of US or any other Civil population would react if they were ruled by a power grabbing leader from a minority group for over decades. Sunnis are the majority in the country and Assad claiming hand on non Allawite, Sunni Arab, Druze or Kurdish populated areas shows it is rather Assad which sees the country as a Oregon cookie he can claim all for himself. You are ignoring the problematic here. Of course the Sunni Rebels are extremists and they claim land for themselves which doesn't belong them either. And they are very Brutal but this does not make Assad another option. I don't know if you know much about Syria's history and how it even came to existence in it's modern form.

If Assad was really democratic person, he would have hold elections long time ago and not promised some now when he feels the heat under himself.

Ike
09-09-13, 13:10
I think it depends on the point of view. I would like to see how the majority of US or any other Civil population would react if they were ruled by a power grabbing leader from a minority group for over decades.

You are ignoring the true nature of the conflict, where we have a president who was upholding the law and homicidal rebels, and observing the problem from the wrong point of view. We saw how US government reacted after 11/9 when a small group of terrorists made their "statement". Was anyone concerned about civil rights at that moment? You could have easily said back then, that Bush was a tyrant president who doesn't let people move where they want, and is running a witch-hunt against Semitic people. And it was really true at that time. But you're ignoring the circumstances in which those conditions occurred.


I'm just wondering if anyone can confirm the translations of their chanting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PviOH5bP2Zk

Jackson
09-09-13, 13:13
I think it depends on the point of view. I would like to see how the majority of US or any other Civil population would react if they were ruled by a power grabbing leader from a minority group for over decades. Sunnis are the majority in the country and Assad claiming hand on non Allawite, Sunni Arab, Druze or Kurdish populated areas shows it is rather Assad which sees the country as a Oregon cookie he can claim all for himself. You are ignoring the problematic here. Of course the Sunni Rebels are extremists and they claim land for themselves which doesn't belong them either. And they are very Brutal but this does not make Assad another option. I don't know if you know much about Syria's history and how it even came to existence in it's modern form.

If Assad was really democratic he would have hold elections long time before and not promised some now when he feels the heat under himself.

Assad has made many reforms and he has promised his people elections as well. Most of the population support him, in fact there are pro-government demonstrations, and SAA troops sing about him in-between firefights. If you watch and read some non-mainstream reports, and also watch the fair number of interviews with him, you will quickly see that he is not who the west make him out to be. In fact he is more democratic and fair minded than many of our own politicians. He also dismissed and sanctioned the man responsible for the deaths in the initial protest. Although radical Islamic elements have been there from the start, 80-90% of the 'FSA' now are Islamic fundamentalists. That's also the reason why the refugee numbers increased so dramatically - because they are fleeing from these people and not the government. I've seen videos of Assad moving around freely in Damascus, if his people were trying to topple him he wouldn't be able to do this. Syria is under seige by foreign terrorists, nothing more, nothing less.

Fire Haired
10-09-13, 03:17
Yeah, and before that there were French fighting there, and before that there was WWII. If you just stopped for a second and gave that people a rest, I guess it would be far better for them. Instead of that you gave them 35 years of almost continuous war and they were honored to meet Agent Orange.

They were being conquered by an evil government we helped end of story. When u say give them a break u are saying let them be killed and oppressed. Ur reasoning is full of half truths and and just sayings with no facts.




Yeah, Chinese are so evil, they won't let Americans drive their ships through their seas. Very evil. BTW, WTH are US looking for in the Chines seas? What would you do if you saw couple of Chinese battle ships 20 miles from the coasts of California?

I also know a couple of US companies that sold weapons/equipment to Hitler, so I wouldn't rush into that subject if I were you.

Yearh they are they just hacked into our military recently i wonder. Why they oppress their people they are apart of the communist movement that created the soviet union and north korea, they dont give their people full human rights. I know people are jealous and angry at America. But look at us all we do is help literally and we blame ourselfs. China oesnt have to worry about america bombing them for no reason because we are run by the people if people like u and me object it we can take uout the government leaders who started it. Plus we go through a process were our governments leaders decide to attack and they were elected by us and are not evil dictators like Hitler. So what u are saying makes no sense china as nothing to worry about. Maybe if they gave their people equal rights and were not so pre communist and north Korea america would not be hostile towards them. Ur negative statements trying to make america seem like a evil empire make no sense at all.

America was one of the biggest or biggest hero of world war two. So what if american companies did that. It does not repsent our government why are u so desperate and show little things that dont matter to try to make america look like some big bad guy.

Fire Haired
10-09-13, 03:19
You are ignoring the true nature of the conflict, where we have a president who was upholding the law and homicidal rebels, and observing the problem from the wrong point of view. We saw how US government reacted after 11/9 when a small group of terrorists made their "statement". Was anyone concerned about civil rights at that moment? You could have easily said back then, that Bush was a tyrant president who doesn't let people move where they want, and is running a witch-hunt against Semitic people. And it was really true at that time. But you're ignoring the circumstances in which those conditions occurred.


I'm just wondering if anyone can confirm the translations of their chanting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PviOH5bP2Zk

Just stop already. BUsh did that because they are a threat and we needed to retaliate. He also saw it as an opportunity to take down saddem i guess later on. Dont u dare say stuff like that about 9/11 u have no idea how much those people suffered. Stop with ur terrible critical thinking that trys to pose america as something it was built not to be.

Ike
10-09-13, 14:03
They were being conquered by an evil government we helped end of story. When u say give them a break u are saying let them be killed and oppressed. Ur reasoning is full of half truths and and just sayings with no facts.

They were being conquered by their own government, but they were killed by yours.
I think they'd rather have a 10 years parliament debate, than be dead.
Half-truths? What is not true? That your army killed millions of people that never endangered your country?



Yearh they are they just hacked into our military recently i wonder.

I have no doubts that you're in their system, just not bragging about that.



Why they oppress their people they are apart of the communist movement that created the soviet union and north korea, they dont give their people full human rights. I know people are jealous and angry at America. But look at us all we do is help literally and we blame ourselfs.

It would be nice for you if you stopped using internal-oppression as an excuse for external-aggression.



China oesnt have to worry about america bombing them for no reason because we are run by the people if people like u and me object it we can take uout the government leaders who started it.

There's plenty more from where those came from. Let's see you change them? You thought you did it when Vietnam war ended, and what's been afterwards? US in war in Afghanistan, Panama, Iraq, Yugoslavia, Pakistan, etc... And you say you can take them out?



Plus we go through a process were our governments leaders decide to attack and they were elected by us and are not evil dictators like Hitler.

There are many numbers below zero. You don't have to be down in Hitler's range to be negative. It's not all black and white.



So what u are saying makes no sense china as nothing to worry about. Maybe if they gave their people equal rights and were not so pre communist and north Korea america would not be hostile towards them.

Maybe, if the whole world was just like you....
And you're so concerned for others well being, that you can't stop killing them.



But look at us all we do is help literally and we blame ourselfs.

Stop "helping" then. It would be better for all.



America was one of the biggest or biggest hero of world war two.

Only in movies. The casualties of Stalingrad are comparable to casualties of US, France and Britain all together in the whole WW2.



So what if american companies did that. It does not repsent our government why are u so desperate and show little things that dont matter to try to make america look like some big bad guy.
Me being desperate or not, wouldn't make it different. It all already happened the way it did.
And that's a hell of an attitude there?! So what if Chinese companies are selling nukes to Iran, Osama and whatever?


Just stop already. BUsh did that because they are a threat and we needed to retaliate. He also saw it as an opportunity to take down saddem i guess later on. Dont u dare say stuff like that about 9/11 u have no idea how much those people suffered. Stop with ur terrible critical thinking that trys to pose america as something it was built not to be.

You turned this into wrong direction. I wasn't talking about any kind of retaliation. My post was about Bush treatment of his own people as a parallel to what Assad is doing in Syria when his county is endangered just like US was. Why is US using one standards for themselves, and when someone else acts the same way they call it repression?

nurset
10-09-13, 14:05
Mmuller can u please put down the sick picture of the gay old man and super man. It isn't funny.

I am so sick of Americans who just debate over this and think conservative vs liberal. We need to stop thinking about philosophy's and how complicated it will be, We need to be strong and defeat Syria government and not let any more messed up corrupt governments and Muslim extremist to take office we need to take control the mid east has been given to many 2nd chances we cant trust them with their own government. When are panza gay Europeans finally gonna help they are still resting after WW2. America would not have to pay so much money if we actulley worked as the UNITED NATIONS we need to fight together if we had equal European and American troops then add in Russian and Chinese think about what an incredible fighting force for justice around the world that would be.

And when will we realize

bad guys= Russia, China, North Korea, all communists really, and Muslim world

Good guys: USA, Europe(not Russia), South Korea, Japan, all free 1st world countries

i would say that there are many corrupt nations in sub shara Africa too and not sure if we can trust all of latin america. I am sick of people saying these wars were 10,000's of people are dying are not our business. We need to work together to end all these non sense wars mainly in the Muslim world.

Why does Obama wait till chemical weapons i think it is pretty bad over 100,000 people have died from guns, bombs, and knifes. It is so stupid how they go by text book stuff it does not matter of assad used chemical weapons or not why are people so stuck on that. Why does Obama wait till now we should have invaded 100,000 deaths ago.

Fire Haired, do you really think that Obama wants to invade Syria because of deaths and casualties of civilians. I know this is boolshit. Nobody is really protecting human rights of Syrians because first of all, us actions are dictated by governmental interests and commercial benefit, and surely the ME is the prior region for America, mostly by its huge resources of crude oil.

I hate the historic time of colonization of weak nations and tribes which didn't threaten the invaders and were peaceful. Do you stand for the return of this time?? It is not democratic.

P.S. I don't think that the photo is stupid, suppose it was made to express concern of the planned strikes and protect peace in ME.

LeBrok
10-09-13, 16:36
Fire Haired, do you really think that Obama wants to invade Syria because of deaths and casualties of civilians. I know this is boolshit. Nobody is really protecting human rights of Syrians because first of all, us actions are dictated by governmental interests and commercial benefit, and surely the ME is the prior region for America, mostly by its huge resources of crude oil.

At any time after WWII till present America had military power and resources to conquer and colonize Middle East and it's oil. Why didn't they do that?

nurset
10-09-13, 16:51
At any time after WWII till present America had military power and resources to conquer and colonize Middle East and it's oil. Why didn't they do that?

After WWII there was USSR with its communist blog and strong army, then they did so.
1. Operation Desert Storm
2. Afghanistan
3. Iraq
4. Arab Spring

But they cannot organize civil peaceful life in invaded countries. Seems that Chaos Theory in ME is still popular in Administration.

LeBrok
10-09-13, 17:07
After WWII there was USSR with its communist blog and strong army, then they did so.
1. Operation Desert Storm
3. Iraq

It was in and out scenario, more to stabilize peace to stabilize oil prices than to control production. For your information, there are Iranian companies pumping oil in Iraq, so it looks like Iraq can sell oil wherever it wants.


4. Arab Spring Oh, you think someone organized the Arab Spring. Don't you think unhappy people can get engry by themselves and protest?


2. Afghanistan and also Syria have no oil. They don't fit your hypothesis.
Tell me about one instance of US government owning oil fields in ME, pumping oil to there tankers and taking it to US without paying for oil.




But they cannot organize civil peaceful life in invaded countries. Tell me how much time it took Germany to get peaceful and democratic after end of monarchy after WWI?

Ike
11-09-13, 00:10
At any time after WWII till present America had military power and resources to conquer and colonize Middle East and it's oil. Why didn't they do that?

Because the old concept of slavery doesn't work any more. There were too many bloody rebellions, and they know better now. They have to make people think they are free so they gave them false illusion of independence, while in fact 90 % governments of the world are controlled by them. Once in a while, when some decent democratic leader shows up (like Gaddafi, Hussein or Assad) they stumble down like vultures to kill him and devastate his country.

People provide them with workmanship( food, services, etc..) and bodies (organs and sex), and they give them printed colored paper for that. They print it without limitation. It's almost as same as in roman Empire, just modern concept, where US are behind the smoke screen of local governments, so that primitive people would think that they have themselves to blame for the wrong choice. Once the primitives get aware of that, it is too late because they are too old - they are deep in credit debts, they can't afford to lose their jobs, thir organisms are weaker and doctors are expensive.


On the other side their kids are teenagers that are already hypnotized by Western values - values that have no meaning nor practical purpose, that are blasphemous, and that make generation gap even bigger. It makes them hate their current way of life, hate their parents and country they live in. So they strive for independence at age 18, because they are young and healthy and they can/would work anything. That would give them 10 years of nice time, until they get kids when they realize they are old, tired, disposable, treated like slaves, and that there is no way out anymore.

And that's the way US wants us all to live.

LeBrok
11-09-13, 03:03
when some decent democratic leader shows up (like Gaddafi, Hussein or Assad) they stumble down like vultures to kill him and devastate his country.
Post and memorize definition of democracy, and edit your post, or I consider this tro-lling.
And no, your personal definition doesn't count.


People provide them with workmanship( food, services, etc..) and bodies (organs and sex), and they give them printed colored paper for that. They print it without limitation. It's almost as same as in roman Empire, just modern concept, where US are behind the smoke screen of local governments, so that primitive people would think that they have themselves to blame for the wrong choice. Once the primitives get aware of that, it is too late because they are too old - they are deep in credit debts, they can't afford to lose their jobs, thir organisms are weaker and doctors are expensive.
On the other side their kids are teenagers that are already hypnotized by Western values - values that have no meaning nor practical purpose, that are blasphemous, and that make generation gap even bigger. It makes them hate their current way of life, hate their parents and country they live in. So they strive for independence at age 18, because they are young and healthy and they can/would work anything. That would give them 10 years of nice time, until they get kids when they realize they are old, tired, disposable, treated like slaves, and that there is no way out anymore.

And that's the way US wants us all to live.
I just wonder how successful you are in this world you don't understand?

FBS
11-09-13, 10:29
Because the old concept of slavery doesn't work any more. There were too many bloody rebellions, and they know better now. They have to make people think they are free so they gave them false illusion of independence, while in fact 90 % governments of the world are controlled by them. Once in a while, when some decent democratic leader shows up (like Gaddafi, Hussein or Assad) they stumble down like vultures to kill him and devastate his country.

People provide them with workmanship( food, services, etc..) and bodies (organs and sex), and they give them printed colored paper for that. They print it without limitation. It's almost as same as in roman Empire, just modern concept, where US are behind the smoke screen of local governments, so that primitive people would think that they have themselves to blame for the wrong choice. Once the primitives get aware of that, it is too late because they are too old - they are deep in credit debts, they can't afford to lose their jobs, thir organisms are weaker and doctors are expensive.


On the other side their kids are teenagers that are already hypnotized by Western values - values that have no meaning nor practical purpose, that are blasphemous, and that make generation gap even bigger. It makes them hate their current way of life, hate their parents and country they live in. So they strive for independence at age 18, because they are young and healthy and they can/would work anything. That would give them 10 years of nice time, until they get kids when they realize they are old, tired, disposable, treated like slaves, and that there is no way out anymore.

And that's the way US wants us all to live.

What a twisted perception of the world :), you would make a good "soldier" of Enver Hoxha.

Alan
12-09-13, 02:03
Once in a while, when some decent democratic leader shows up (like Gaddafi, Hussein or Assad) they stumble down like vultures to kill him and devastate his country.



With that sentence you have lost allot of credibility in my eyes. The hate for anything American seems to be so big among some people that they have lost any relation to reality.

nurset
12-09-13, 11:08
Tell me how much time it took Germany to get peaceful and democratic after end of monarchy after WWI?

I am afraid you miss regional wars with world ones. At that time all countries were in difficult situation even America with the Great Depression.
But during that period of time till WWII Germany became the most powerful industrial country in Europe and is still lokomotive if the EU.

And US Administration and Congress cannot make any consensus on Syria. The winner of the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize cannot twerk Assad.

6016

Ike
12-09-13, 11:19
@LeBrok
The definition of democracy? OK, let me remember from high school... it was somewhere in old Greece - We lay down in the sun, theoretizing and making philosophy, while slaves work for us. Good enough?

@FBS
Maybe we share same views, I don't know much about him. Anyway, I doubt I'd be soldier for anyone.

@Alan Don't overreact. There is no hatred for everything that is American. Just for that part where they intrude on others, and impose them their democracy.



You people tell that Saddam made war campaigns that ended in killing tens of thousands of Kurds, and declare it a genocide. OK. But when Turkey does the same or worse thing, then there is no reaction. Why? I have no other explanation except for it is a NATO member. If you wanted democracy, why hasn't anyone pleaded for Kurdish independence. We all know there are ~ 30.000.000 Kurds around here, and they get slaughtered by everyone around for decades:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/Kurdish-inhabited_area_by_CIA_(1992).jpg/734px-Kurdish-inhabited_area_by_CIA_(1992).jpg

ElHorsto
12-09-13, 12:00
After WWII there was USSR with its communist blog and strong army, then they did so.
1. Operation Desert Storm
2. Afghanistan
3. Iraq
4. Arab Spring

But they cannot organize civil peaceful life in invaded countries. Seems that Chaos Theory in ME is still popular in Administration.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ha1rEhovONU&feature=share

Fire Haired
15-09-13, 00:22
They were being conquered by their own government, but they were killed by yours.
I think they'd rather have a 10 years parliament debate, than be dead.
Half-truths? What is not true? That your army killed millions of people that never endangered your country?

Ur not using any historical facts. I think the US needs to stop fighting fake wars like we have since WW2. we need to go all out on Syria's government blow them away in a week even better than a Iraq. Then after that i really don't know what to do. We cant trust the Syrian rebels they would do just as bad or worse. We cant trust the Syrian people at all the extremist Muslims or just extremist always find a way to get power. Because of that the best thing i can think of is make them a colonie kind of like Puerto Rico that is the best way to safe lives and make live better for the Syrian people, the mid east, and really the whole world. But that in so many ways goes against American ideology but i don't think we should let the people rule the government we cant trust them. We need to forget about the philosophy on life and we need to do what safes lives and helps people's lives.

U need to stop trying to pose post WW2 America as a imperialistic power. All of or wars have been to help other people. We give so much money away. We are not this evil country u poss us as. The whole western world since WW2 has been very good u don't see Napoleons or Hitlers anymore. Hitler was just 70-80 years ago Napoleon 200 the western world changed alot. Europe used to constintley be in wars like the mid east and Africa u can see that when u look in history books. America and Democracy is what mainly changed that. After world war 2. It was kind of the begging of the free world and the modern world.



I have no doubts that you're in their system, just not bragging about that.
What are u trying to say??



It would be nice for you if you stopped using internal-oppression as an excuse for external-aggression.

It is a very good reason. If u see people being massacred and u have very powerful rich militarties and we made the UNITED nations after WW2 to stop stuff like that we need to attack. Ur philosophy is just let the mid east kill themlseves when u have the power to stop it just watch 100,000's of thousands of people die.



There's plenty more from where those came from. Let's see you change them? You thought you did it when Vietnam war ended, and what's been afterwards? US in war in Afghanistan, Panama, Iraq, Yugoslavia, Pakistan, etc... And you say you can take them out?

America destroyed North Vietmanese when it came to winning battles and killing solderis. I think i mentioned the statics earlier but u can look it up ur self. It is a myth in America that we were the bad guys and that we lost and that the north vietmanese were these un stoppble people who ambushed american soldiers that's not what happened it was something like 7 times more veit cong died than American's. The reason we could not win the war and invade north is because it could start world war 3. We cant conquer China's communist government because that would start world war 3 and all the nuclear stuff. I dont know the specifcs of the US wars in the mid east. We chould have done much better in iraq i say make it a colony or Some how stop any corrupt governmemt which would pop up if we let their people run it as crazy as that sounds its the best solution.



Maybe, if the whole world was just like you....
And you're so concerned for others well being, that you can't stop killing them.

If the whole world was like america seriously we would have no wars and almost no foreign problems. I cant stop killing evil people who will cause more deaths if we don't stop them and stop their source which is their power in the government.



Stop "helping" then. It would be better for all.
No it wouldn't u know how much we help the world i cant explain it all. We are the biggest part in making the modern world and the free world.



Only in movies. The casualties of Stalingrad are comparable to casualties of US, France and Britain all together in the whole WW2.

I am not going to go into long explanation on this. Just look at the stats yes america was the biggest part in winning [email protected] We beat Japan and were huge in helping beat the Nazis. Sure USSR was big in helping beat the Nazis but we fought two wars on two oppiste oceans.



Me being desperate or not, wouldn't make it different. It all already happened the way it did.
And that's a hell of an attitude there?! So what if Chinese companies are selling nukes to Iran, Osama and whatever?



[QUOTE=Ike;415819]You turned this into wrong direction. I wasn't talking about any kind of retaliation. My post was about Bush treatment of his own people as a parallel to what Assad is doing in Syria when his county is endangered just like US was. Why is US using one standards for themselves, and when someone else acts the same way they call it repression?

Little Chinese kids 2,000 years from now are going too look at people who say stuff like that. The same way we look at Romans who allowed Germans to be so involved in their military and were so pacife towards them which ended up with Germans taking the entire western Roman empire. That is just retarted we need to care alot if China or Russia is helping a country that also wants to destory the western world deifntley if it has to do with nukes.

Ike
15-09-13, 01:59
We need to forget about the philosophy on life and we need to do what safes lives and helps people's lives.
But what really happens is that US always end up leaving trail of death, destroyed country and economy. I remember it happened in Libya not long ago. You wanna bet it would not happen in Syria too?



U need to stop trying to pose post WW2 America as a imperialistic power. All of or wars have been to help other people. We give so much money away. We are not this evil country u poss us as.
1. American soldiers that are all over the world pose that, not I.
2. Real money? Based on gold? Or just paper money?
3. Prove that. Lets see normal life just once, where US treaded.



What are u trying to say??

Just that US has very effective MI service. You don't think so?



It is a very good reason. If u see people being massacred and u have very powerful rich militarties and we made the UNITED nations after WW2 to stop stuff like that we need to attack. Ur philosophy is just let the mid east kill themlseves when u have the power to stop it just watch 100,000's of thousands of people die.

Your logic would be fine if CIA wasn't the one which initiated the conflict in Syria. If there wasn't for US, there would be no Syrian war, no conflict, no rebels, probably just students demonstrating from time to time, which happens all over the world.



America destroyed North Vietmanese when it came to winning battles and killing solderis. I think i mentioned the statics earlier but u can look it up ur self. It is a myth in America that we were the bad guys and that we lost and that the north vietmanese were these un stoppble people who ambushed american soldiers that's not what happened it was something like 7 times more veit cong died than American's. The reason we could not win the war and invade north is because it could start world war 3. We cant conquer China's communist government because that would start world war 3 and all the nuclear stuff. I dont know the specifcs of the US wars in the mid east. We chould have done much better in iraq i say make it a colony or Some how stop any corrupt governmemt which would pop up if we let their people run it as crazy as that sounds its the best solution.

Why would you say it was a myth? US soldiers came on North Vietnamese territory to kill North Vietnamese which didn't even had an Atom bomb. Not even chemical weapons... Nor cruisers and airplanes. Nor choppers and tanks.... Nor electricity, petrol and food.... Did they have uniforms?

Pssst, we know you would like to conquer China, but don't say it out loud :laughing:
You'd already conquer the whole world just if they didn't have nukes.



If the whole world was like america seriously we would have no wars and almost no foreign problems.

I already said that I have no doubt that US wants to make us all be like it. And that it will not stop, and won't restraint to use any method to make all the world subjected to it.



I cant stop killing evil people who will cause more deaths if we don't stop them and stop their source which is their power in the government.

Than you should take your gun, and go to Washington :laughing:



No it wouldn't u know how much we help the world i cant explain it all. We are the biggest part in making the modern world and the free world.

That's what you think. I'm sure that Napoleon felt the same about himself. Do Libyans or Iraqi think that?




I am not going to go into long explanation on this. Just look at the stats yes america was the biggest part in winning [email protected] We beat Japan and were huge in helping beat the Nazis. Sure USSR was big in helping beat the Nazis but we fought two wars on two oppiste oceans.

I'm not even going to get into this one. :sad-2:



Little Chinese kids 2,000 years from now are going too look at people who say stuff like that. The same way we look at Romans who allowed Germans to be so involved in their military and were so pacife towards them which ended up with Germans taking the entire western Roman empire. That is just retarted we need to care alot if China or Russia is helping a country that also wants to destory the western world deifntley if it has to do with nukes.

Little Chinese kids have books, where they read how little Chinese kids lived 5000 years ago. Where did you get the idea that they can learn anything from US?

Sile
15-09-13, 02:12
But what really happens is that US always end up leaving trail of death, destroyed country and economy. I remember it happened in Libya not long ago. You wanna bet it would not happen in Syria too?


1. American soldiers that are all over the world pose that, not I.
2. Real money? Based on gold? Or just paper money?
3. Prove that. Lets see normal life just once, where US treaded.


Just that US has very effective MI service. You don't think so?


Your logic would be fine if CIA wasn't the one which initiated the conflict in Syria. If there wasn't for US, there would be no Syrian war, no conflict, no rebels, probably just students demonstrating from time to time, which happens all over the world.


Why would you say it was a myth? US soldiers came on North Vietnamese territory to kill North Vietnamese which didn't even had an Atom bomb. Not even chemical weapons... Nor cruisers and airplanes. Nor choppers and tanks.... Nor electricity, petrol and food.... Did they have uniforms?

Pssst, we know you would like to conquer China, but don't say it out loud :laughing:
You'd already conquer the whole world just if they didn't have nukes.


I already said that I have no doubt that US wants to make us all be like it. And that it will not stop, and won't restraint to use any method to make all the world subjected to it.


Than you should take your gun, and go to Washington :laughing:


That's what you think. I'm sure that Napoleon felt the same about himself. Do Libyans or Iraqi think that?



I'm not even going to get into this one. :sad-2:



Little Chinese kids have books, where they read how little Chinese kids lived 5000 years ago. Where did you get the idea that they can learn anything from US?

you know the americans want to sell arms, you need wars to sell arms

LeBrok
15-09-13, 03:27
you know the americans want to sell arms, you need wars to sell arms
Who did they sell arms in Syrian conflict? Maybe you should blame Russia for this war?

With this logic Australia is behind strikes in coal mines in South Africa, and uses Tesla Coil to create earthquakes in mines in China, just to sell more Australian coal. It makes sense, isn't it.

Sile
15-09-13, 04:50
Who did they sell arms in Syrian conflict? Maybe you should blame Russia for this war?

With this logic Australia is behind strikes in coal mines in South Africa, and uses Tesla Coil to create earthquakes in mines in China, just to sell more Australian coal. It makes sense, isn't it.

of course russia is in it as well and many other nations.

yes, australia is trying to sell all its brown coal. we have a big deposit. the one reason the australian government does not promote solar and wind energy.
You know , all politicans are from the same vein

Ike
15-09-13, 13:18
@LeBrok

Again, reductio ad rediculum. You could have also said that Africans induced the Ice age to sell more land in Greece to Gauls. And that that's where Dorians appeared from.

LeBrok
15-09-13, 18:09
@LeBrok

Again, reductio ad rediculum. You could have also said that Africans induced the Ice age to sell more land in Greece to Gauls. And that that's where Dorians appeared from.
Now you see where conspiracy theories can bring us. Let's keep the facts straight.

Ike
15-09-13, 18:33
Where do you see conspiracy? Everything is logical. People need money, and they sell drugs, guns, people. It happened all throughout the history. You're the one who's introducing an extraordinary and naive thesis that it doesn't happen just because someone says they're not doing it. You're the one who wants us to believe that things are different than what they've always been. Well I'm not convinced. You'll have to do a lot better than this if you're speaking for US.

LeBrok
16-09-13, 00:36
Where do you see conspiracy? Everything is logical. People need money, and they sell drugs, guns, people. It happened all throughout the history. You're the one who's introducing an extraordinary and naive thesis that it doesn't happen just because someone says they're not doing it. You're the one who wants us to believe that things are different than what they've always been. Well I'm not convinced. You'll have to do a lot better than this if you're speaking for US.
It is also logical to conclude that there are many power centers around this planet trying to influence the world. We have US, Russia, China, India, Germany and Israel all selling weapons. You have also oil money, diamond money, bank money, drug money pulling in all directions. We have governments of big countries pulling other ways. We have religious leaders influencing outcomes in Middle East too. We have hundreds of billionaires on this planet who can throw big money at many problems, and according to their point of view.
On top of it we have tyrants and millions of hungry, disappointed and angry people in this mix.
It is very illogical to conclude that US has any substantial control over all this mess.

It is interesting that conspiracy theorists always see someone in control of any station on this planet. Thinking, nothing could happen on this world without someone deciding about everything. I find it very spiritual. It is like our ancestors, not knowing how world works, gave gods control over thunders. Likewise today, not knowing how Syrian war started, people need to invent someone in control, someone who started it. So for the lack of any evidence, you've chosen US with CIA, in control of Syrian conflict. How spiritual of you.


Your logic would be fine if CIA wasn't the one which initiated the conflict in Syria. If there wasn't for US, there would be no Syrian war, no conflict, no rebels, probably just students demonstrating from time to time, which happens all over the world.

Isn't it logical that US wants stability in ME to get cheap oil? Every time there is a conflict in ME oil prices are going up.
Isn't it logical that if US don't sell weapons to Syria they don't keep sides. Now you have reluctant US and West to attack Assad, although he buys arms in Russia. What does that tell you?
Isn't it possible that sometimes angry and disappointed people can rebel on their own?
Isn't it logical that electronic companies, which are many times richer than arms companies these days, can influence world more with their billions? They want peace, because in times of peace and prosperity they sell more electronics and get richer. Also in times of peace and production bankers make more money, because people have jobs and can borrow money from banks to buy homes, cars and what's not. Also bankers who invested money in Syria are losing their billions now when country is in ruin, nobody works and Assad is running out of money too. Are the bankers influential, or is it just a mirage in conspirator's eyes.

Isn't it also logical to conclude that very often, on this planet, things can happen because of human incompetence and stupidity, lack of control and short sightedness? Humans are not perfect, expect unexpected and a lot of mess.

Ike
16-09-13, 03:54
You're talking plenty about what's logical and what illogical, and not giving any facts. Facts are dead people, economic indexes, and number of wars US has led, all with the same outcomes. You're trying to divert the course of conversation into subjective domain, where we would debate about who's opinion is more logical or who's president is more democratic. I already know your opinion and your interpretations and rationalizations of historical events. You're not going anywhere with it. You have devised a very complex logical pattern trying to explain what is obvious (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/occam's%20razor). You would be more convincing if you gave some actual examples of US DoS politics producing positive effects (if there are any).

As for what US is doing, Einstein said "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." I don't believe they are insane. I think they know perfectly well what are they doing.

p.s. I would be very happy if I'm proven wrong, and if it eventually shows up that they are just insane.

Fire Haired
16-09-13, 05:19
Ike u obviously have a dis like of america and want to say it is a imperialistic power. U need to realize America does not want to kill innocent people or steal oil. Modern western countries aren't even close to as bad as they where 100 or 200 years ago. South Korea is very grateful for the war we lead there if we did not they would be as bad off as the North Koreans i don't think i need to explain that to u. In Vietnam just looking at the statics the US military was very successful in fighting but not winning the war. Because it would need up as a huge nuclear war so the US was not really fighting to win or for anything. I think it was good to stop evil communist expansion but if ur not going in there to win why be there. I don't know that much about the wars in Yugoslavia i know the one in the early 1990's in Kuwait was successful.

For the recent wars in the mid east even though i have grown up hearing about them i don't know that much about specific's. I think it was good to take out saddem just because he was an evil dictator and a threat i think we should have made Iraq a colony as crazy as that sounds in someway stop any type of corrupt person from taking power or add the country ourselfs. This is totally against founding American ideals but we cant trust the people with the government they always end up killing each other like in Syria. I think it was the right thing to do to fight against terrorist groups mainly because of 9-11. We have been the most influencle and powerful nation including in military since world war 2. In the cold war we represented the free world like the Soviet Union represented the Communist world. We cant take over 3,000 of our people being killed by terrorist and not retaliate. Those terrorist are blowing people up all the time it is good to get a super power military to chase them down.

Like i said i don't know the specific's but i would bet America did not go all out or do as well as we could. I bet we were not aggressive enough either. So i don't really know what to say about those wars but the intention to start them is good i don't know if we fought them the right way.

I think the most important thing for America right now when it comes to foreign wars and threats. Is for the people to wake up. And realize right now we are in a worse position than in 1962 and during the prime of the cold war. Russia is just as big as a threat as the Soviet Union their just disguised. China and North Korea deifntley are as big threats as Soviet Union maybe their not being as aggressive as the USSR during the cold war. The whole Muslim world is a huge threat most of it is run by people who would love to see all of our heads on stakes and i mean all westerns not just Americans so u too. The American people needs to know what is happening China, Russia, Muslim World=bad.

Lebrok before has taken this as i hate Muslims. I am just looking at the facts they are a huge threat.

LeBrok
16-09-13, 06:07
You're talking plenty about what's logical and what illogical, and not giving any facts. Facts are dead people, economic indexes, and number of wars US has led, all with the same outcomes.
1. War with Germany - US won. Germany is now democratic and everybody in Europe likes them these days.
2. War with Japan - US won. Japan is now democratic monarchy, and one of richest country in Asia.
3. Korean war - US and coalition managed to keep half of the peninsula and gave start to South Korea. South Korea is successful and democratic. North Korea is dictatorship nightmare, poor, with every tenth citizen in labour camps.
4. Vietnam - US withdrawn from lack of public support for the war. Till today Vietnam is one of poorest in Asia, only recently implementing reforms of free market, capitalism and liberalization of life and politics. (hmm, so many millions died for communist ideas which now are not in fashion and forgotten). Perhaps they should admitted finally they were wrong and apologize to the public. You can say communists won this round
5. First Iraq war - Saddam Hussein and Iraqi army defeated, Kuwait liberated and prosperous again.
6. Second Iraq war - Saddam dead, Iraqis learning democracy and have a chance to decide about nature of their country. It is a mess for now but they are free. Second war was not necessary if Bush senior finished Saddam in the first one.
7. Afghanistan, Taliban defeated, Afghan women liberated. Unfortunately there is no will in the west to fight long war and no help from Pakistan in fighting Taliban. Main terrorist Osama Bin Laden is dead, together with many of his seconds in command. No big terrorist attack in US since 9/11. But at the end of the day Taliban might be in power again Afghanistan if West quits.
8. Cold War - Soviet Block quits. No money, no will, no freedoms. Capitalism wins, with US as the leader. Remnants of communism, North Korea and Cuba, are one of poorest countries in the world, and people are the least free.

So what the heck by "same outcomes" you mean? If you mean that in all of the conflicts people died then it is the same outcome for all the wars since beginning of humankind (with Serbian wars included), and it doesn't relate only or specially to USA.



gave some actual examples of US DoS politics producing positive effects (if there are any).
You are alive thanks to US finishing Germany (not taking anything from Russian effort). After Jews' Slavs were next to go into gas chambers. It means you or your parents. Just for this you should thank US, at least once in your life.
Would you rather see all Korea being like North Korea?
Would you rather see Imperial Japan ruling Asia till now?
Would you rather want Osama to be still alive, and Islamic terrorists attacking more european targets?
Would you rather see women not going to schools in Afghanistan?
Would you rather want to see million or more Yugoslavians killed in domestic war, if US didn't force Serbia army to stop?
Would you rather see Saddam controlling whole Middle East and dictating world oil prices?
would you rather want to see Soviets conquering and "helping" more countries in the world, rendering them poor, more poor and their citizens without freedom of speech?


I think they know perfectly well what are they doing. Actually it is insane to think this, not knowing the facts and basing your conclusion on guessing, ala conspiracy. Human incompetence, bad planning, bad informations and wrong advisors are also viable options. You might also refresh on Chaos Theory. It is not logical (not knowing all the facts) to pick only one possibility.


p.s. I would be very happy if I'm proven wrong, and if it eventually shows up that they are just insane.
Did I give you enough details this time to think about? I'm expecting same in return.

LeBrok
16-09-13, 06:13
Lebrok before has taken this as i hate Muslims. I am just looking at the facts they are a huge threat.
Is Fareed Zakaria and Dr Oz a big thread? And other hundreds of famous good American Muslims.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_Muslims

nordicquarreler
16-09-13, 06:47
You may not want my honest assessment of Fareed. I will leave it at that.

Sile
16-09-13, 07:38
[QUOTE=LeBrok;416127][/I]
1. War with Germany - US won. Germany is now democratic and everybody in Europe likes them these days.
2. War with Japan - US won. Japan is now democratic monarchy, and one of richest country in Asia.
3. Korean war - US and coalition managed to keep half of the peninsula and gave start to South Korea. South Korea is successful and democratic. North Korea is dictatorship nightmare, poor, with every tenth citizen in labour camps.
4. Vietnam - US withdrawn from lack of public support for the war. Till today Vietnam is one of poorest in Asia, only recently implementing reforms of free market, capitalism and liberalization of life and politics. (hmm, so many millions died for communist ideas which now are not in fashion and forgotten). Perhaps they should admitted finally they were wrong and apologize to the public. You can say communists won this round
5. First Iraq war - Saddam Hussein and Iraqi army defeated, Kuwait liberated and prosperous again.
6. Second Iraq war - Saddam dead, Iraqis learning democracy and have a chance to decide about nature of their country. It is a mess for now but they are free. Second war was not necessary if Bush senior finished Saddam in the first one.
7. Afghanistan, Taliban defeated, Afghan women liberated. Unfortunately there is no will in the west to fight long war and no help from Pakistan in fighting Taliban. Main terrorist Osama Bin Laden is dead, together with many of his seconds in command. No big terrorist attack in US since 9/11. But at the end of the day Taliban might be in power again Afghanistan if West quits.
8. Cold War - Soviet Block quits. No money, no will, no freedoms. Capitalism wins, with US as the leader. Remnants of communism, North Korea and Cuba, are one of poorest countries in the world, and people are the least free.

/QUOTE]
lol, which history do you read?

1 - ditto
2 - did'nt need to nuke them, they where already defeated
3 - ditto
4 -US lost, there is no more of their ally south Vietnam
5 -ditto
6 - iran is still destroyed and still not a democracy
7- taliban was never defeated, no-one can defeat them
8- capitalism of the 60s and 70s ok...capitalism as from the 80s to today is corrupt in a major way...fault of globalization

LeBrok
16-09-13, 08:46
2 - did'nt need to nuke them, they where already defeated

Irrelevant to this discussion. Otherwise before nukes, they were ready to die for the emperor their god, to the last one.
Americans didn't nuke Vietcong and look what happened. They've just kept coming even with no weapons.



6 - iran is still destroyed and still not a democracy Before you teach me history check your geography.


7- taliban was never defeated, no-one can defeat themTaliban was defeated in Afghanistan. The new attacks are coming every spring from Pakistan.


8- capitalism of the 60s and 70s ok...capitalism as from the 80s to today is corrupt in a major way...fault of globalizationYou are the first one with news like this. How did you figure it out?

Ike
16-09-13, 13:49
Ike u obviously have a dis like of america and want to say it is a imperialistic power. U need to realize America does not want to kill innocent people or steal oil. Modern western countries aren't even close to as bad as they where 100 or 200 years ago. South Korea is very grateful for the war we lead there if we did not they would be as bad off as the North Koreans i don't think i need to explain that to u.
You missed to say that North Koreans and Chinese are acting like "bad assess" because they have seen what has happened in South Korea and they are afraid that same could happen to them.



In Vietnam just looking at the statics the US military was very successful in fighting but not winning the war. Because it would need up as a huge nuclear war so the US was not really fighting to win or for anything. I think it was good to stop evil communist expansion but if ur not going in there to win why be there. I don't know that much about the wars in Yugoslavia i know the one in the early 1990's in Kuwait was successful.

Just skip Vietnam war, it was total US/French fiasco, with or without winning. As for what Vietnamese think:
"They viewed the conflict as a colonial war, fought initially against France, then against America..."



I think it was good to take out saddem just because he was an evil dictator and a threat i think we should have made Iraq a colony as crazy as that sounds in someway stop any type of corrupt person from taking power or add the country ourselfs.
Adding? What country? Kuwait? That territory doesn't even have basic elements to support life. It has no drinking water. And what about why the war started? It was large debt of Iraq towards Kuwait (something like 50.000.000.000 USD), and about Kuwait digging Iraqi oil. Why did no one talk about that?



2. In the cold war we represented the free world like the Soviet Union represented the Communist world.

Does that imply that you were the free ones, and communists were not? Does that mean that if some country calls itself "Democratic Republic of Something" it is really democratic? Does that mean that if Norway changes it's name to Socialist Republic of Norway, you'll consider it as a possible threat? You people show strong notions to generalize things.



Like i said i don't know the specific's but i would bet America did not go all out or do as well as we could. I bet we were not aggressive enough either. So i don't really know what to say about those wars but the intention to start them is good i don't know if we fought them the right way.


You should join politics with this attitude. Go directly to Paul Wolfowitz, he'll fill you up for details and make you a millionaire on the fly.



I think the most important thing for America right now when it comes to foreign wars and threats. Is for the people to wake up. And realize right now we are in a worse position than in 1962 and during the prime of the cold war. Russia is just as big as a threat as the Soviet Union their just disguised. China and North Korea deifntley are as big threats as Soviet Union maybe their not being as aggressive as the USSR during the cold war. The whole Muslim world is a huge threat most of it is run by people who would love to see all of our heads on stakes and i mean all westerns not just Americans so u too. The American people needs to know what is happening China, Russia, Muslim World=bad.


Well, I think the opposite. I never saw Soviet Union fighting wars around US, but I see NATO all around Russia. It's almost encapsulated. Who is the aggressor there?

Ike
16-09-13, 15:50
1. War with Germany - US won. Germany is now democratic and everybody in Europe likes them these days.
2. War with Japan - US won. Japan is now democratic monarchy, and one of richest country in Asia.
3. Korean war - US and coalition managed to keep half of the peninsula and gave start to South Korea. South Korea is successful and democratic. North Korea is dictatorship nightmare, poor, with every tenth citizen in labour camps.
4. Vietnam - US withdrawn from lack of public support for the war. Till today Vietnam is one of poorest in Asia, only recently implementing reforms of free market, capitalism and liberalization of life and politics. (hmm, so many millions died for communist ideas which now are not in fashion and forgotten). Perhaps they should admitted finally they were wrong and apologize to the public. You can say communists won this round
5. First Iraq war - Saddam Hussein and Iraqi army defeated, Kuwait liberated and prosperous again.
6. Second Iraq war - Saddam dead, Iraqis learning democracy and have a chance to decide about nature of their country. It is a mess for now but they are free. Second war was not necessary if Bush senior finished Saddam in the first one.
7. Afghanistan, Taliban defeated, Afghan women liberated. Unfortunately there is no will in the west to fight long war and no help from Pakistan in fighting Taliban. Main terrorist Osama Bin Laden is dead, together with many of his seconds in command. No big terrorist attack in US since 9/11. But at the end of the day Taliban might be in power again Afghanistan if West quits.
8. Cold War - Soviet Block quits. No money, no will, no freedoms. Capitalism wins, with US as the leader. Remnants of communism, North Korea and Cuba, are one of poorest countries in the world, and people are the least free.

So what the heck by "same outcomes" you mean? If you mean that in all of the conflicts people died then it is the same outcome for all the wars since beginning of humankind (with Serbian wars included), and it doesn't relate only or specially to USA.



1. US almost wasn't even in Europe war. War begun in 1939, but US made their famous "invasion" in 1944. That was the end of the war. Soviets asked them from help since the beginning. They promised in 1942. They didn't do it. They promised in 1943. They didn't do it. Soviets obliterated German army, entered Poland, Slovakia, Romania, East Germany and "OMG, Germans are loosing the war to commies, we must help 'em."

2. China became communist country in 1949. It's very symptomatic that that's the very same year when MacArthur handed the power to Japanese government.

3. Well, you call that democratic. I call the Usianized.

4. Please no Vietnam. You pushed the country directly from colonialism to 35 years of war, and now you're attributing the consequences to victims.

5. Kuwait is an administrative zone around the sink hole through which British suck the Arabian oil.

6. Murder of Hussein.

7. "It was around the time of this investment, incidentally, that Osama bin Laden made his first trip to the Khyber Pass, where he would soon join the Mujaheddin and the CIA in the holy war that expelled the Soviets from Afghanistan."

8. No money? After Hitler vandalized half of the Europe (interesting, just the Eastern half). We all know what Russia, Lithuania, Ukraine and Poland looked like after WW2. You can't compare it to Denmark and France (with which Hitler was delighted BTW). You're comparing scorched earth with bridges, theaters and museums.

Same motive - US fighting for "democracy".
Same pattern - US organize anti-governmental demonstrations and rebels
Same reaction - US people always wonder "Why do we need this war?"
Same outcome - more dead than in any other solution, country infrastructure and economy destroyed, industry exhausted and in possession of foreign corporations, imposed governments that serves US interests, youth indoctrinated and Usianized and military bases closer to Russia and China.



You are alive thanks to US finishing Germany (not taking anything from Russian effort). After Jews' Slavs were next to go into gas chambers. It means you or your parents. Just for this you should thank US, at least once in your life.

Yugoslavia was almost free when US found it "reasonable to take serious participation in Europe war". It freed by itself. Soviets helped us free some northern parts of the country, and we are very grateful for that. It's interesting that many street names changed with "democrats" in Belgrade. Streets of General Zdanov and Marshall Tolbuhin (whose armies participated d in liberation of Belgrade ), "JNA street" (which liberated the country), Boulevard of Anti-Fascist Council, etc. Self-proclaimed democrats are eager to erase every remnant of that times, and to make us forget the heroic battle and help of Russian and Soviet peoplea gains the fascism. They'd probably like us to forget on whose side was Croatia in WW2, what it did, and whose ideas it is administrating even today backed by Germany(again) and US.

Yeah, we know exactly whose (http://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/mar/26/balkans16) bombs killed the most civilians during WW2, and I was not surprise when they did it again.



Would you rather see all Korea being like North Korea?
Would you rather see Imperial Japan ruling Asia till now?
Would you rather want Osama to be still alive, and Islamic terrorists attacking more european targets?
Would you rather see women not going to schools in Afghanistan?
Would you rather want to see million or more Yugoslavians killed in domestic war, if US didn't force Serbia army to stop?
Would you rather see Saddam controlling whole Middle East and dictating world oil prices?
would you rather want to see Soviets conquering and "helping" more countries in the world, rendering them poor, more poor and their citizens without freedom of speech?

1. North Korea wouldn't be in situation like this if there wasn't for US "aid".

2. I'm not supporting Hitler nor his allies.

3.Osama's dad was a billionaire, and as I'm informed we could ask Bush because two families are familiar with each other.

4. Yeah, like we think US is there for human rights :)
" Afghanistan has been the greatest illicit opium producer in the entire world, ahead of Burma (Myanmar), the "Golden Triangle", and Latin America since 1992, excluding the year 2001. Afghanistan is the main producer of opium in the "Golden Crescent". Opium production in Afghanistan has been on the rise since U.S. occupation started in 2001".

5. Serbs weren't forced to stop, because they didn't go anywhere. They were where thay have always been, and US cleansed them. Get hold of the facts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyoWem9Nvsc).

6. What's the difference. It is now being controlled by paper dollar of US. Some OPEC countries are already questioning this practice, and US is turning an evil-eye on them just for a thought.

7. Soviets may be poor in money or gold, but there are much more valuable things in life that material wealth. We know who made most money in WW1, we know who sold guns to both Hitler and Stalin, and who issued bonds. It's no miracle some countries are rich, and some decent countries are poor



Actually it is insane to think this, not knowing the facts and basing your conclusion on guessing, ala conspiracy. Human incompetence, bad planning, bad informations and wrong advisors are also viable options. You might also refresh on Chaos Theory. It is not logical (not knowing all the facts) to pick only one possibility.
OK, then they are just insane.

Fire Haired
17-09-13, 02:25
You missed to say that North Koreans and Chinese are acting like "bad assess" because they have seen what has happened in South Korea and they are afraid that same could happen to them.

Right there u just showed ur obliviously biased. Seriosuly u are going to defend china and north korea and somehow say their life is better than south koreans. This is such a stupid argument i will just ask u to research urself. I have meet many south Koreans and their lives are just as well off as Americans and are gratful we helped and look at america as a close friend.



Just skip Vietnam war, it was total US/French fiasco, with or without winning. As for what Vietnamese think:
"They viewed the conflict as a colonial war, fought initially against France, then against America..."

America fought for south vietnam so that they would not be conquered by a evil oppressive north Vietnamese soviet supported government. The war was just stop trying to pose america as having these dark secret evil imperialistic intentions.




Adding? What country? Kuwait? That territory doesn't even have basic elements to support life. It has no drinking water. And what about why the war started? It was large debt of Iraq towards Kuwait (something like 50.000.000.000 USD), and about Kuwait digging Iraqi oil. Why did no one talk about that?

What i know is Iraq under saddem tried to conquer Kuwait and the UN stopped him.




Does that imply that you were the free ones, and communists were not? Does that mean that if some country calls itself "Democratic Republic of Something" it is really democratic? Does that mean that if Norway changes it's name to Socialist Republic of Norway, you'll consider it as a possible threat? You people show strong notions to generalize things.
No but u know what i mean i dont think we need to argue if Soviet Union, China, Veitnam, and north korea were good guys or bad guys so thats why i call them communist bad guys. Dont u know what the cold war is it was not USSR defending agianst america advance and american oppression it was america defending agianst communist oppersion and conquering and oppression of people in eastern Europe and asia. They were the bad guys we were the good guys any one from Europe, latin america, africa whatever would agree with that. It was good guys aka the free world in Europe and America against the bad guys aka the communist.




You should join politics with this attitude. Go directly to Paul Wolfowitz, he'll fill you up for details and make you a millionaire on the fly.

If i was a politician i would study and know the specific's of the wars politicians aren't idiots they have incredible educations and its their job to know that stuff. And yes America intention was good but i doubt we fought the wars as best as we could.




Well, I think the opposite. I never saw Soviet Union fighting wars around US, but I see NATO all around Russia. It's almost encapsulated. Who is the aggressor there?

America=good soviet union=bad END OF STORY.

Fire Haired
17-09-13, 02:28
[QUOTE=LeBrok;416127][/I]
1. War with Germany - US won. Germany is now democratic and everybody in Europe likes them these days.
2. War with Japan - US won. Japan is now democratic monarchy, and one of richest country in Asia.
3. Korean war - US and coalition managed to keep half of the peninsula and gave start to South Korea. South Korea is successful and democratic. North Korea is dictatorship nightmare, poor, with every tenth citizen in labour camps.
4. Vietnam - US withdrawn from lack of public support for the war. Till today Vietnam is one of poorest in Asia, only recently implementing reforms of free market, capitalism and liberalization of life and politics. (hmm, so many millions died for communist ideas which now are not in fashion and forgotten). Perhaps they should admitted finally they were wrong and apologize to the public. You can say communists won this round
5. First Iraq war - Saddam Hussein and Iraqi army defeated, Kuwait liberated and prosperous again.
6. Second Iraq war - Saddam dead, Iraqis learning democracy and have a chance to decide about nature of their country. It is a mess for now but they are free. Second war was not necessary if Bush senior finished Saddam in the first one.
7. Afghanistan, Taliban defeated, Afghan women liberated. Unfortunately there is no will in the west to fight long war and no help from Pakistan in fighting Taliban. Main terrorist Osama Bin Laden is dead, together with many of his seconds in command. No big terrorist attack in US since 9/11. But at the end of the day Taliban might be in power again Afghanistan if West quits.
8. Cold War - Soviet Block quits. No money, no will, no freedoms. Capitalism wins, with US as the leader. Remnants of communism, North Korea and Cuba, are one of poorest countries in the world, and people are the least free.

/QUOTE]
lol, which history do you read?

1 - ditto
2 - did'nt need to nuke them, they where already defeated
3 - ditto
4 -US lost, there is no more of their ally south Vietnam
5 -ditto
6 - iran is still destroyed and still not a democracy
7- taliban was never defeated, no-one can defeat them
8- capitalism of the 60s and 70s ok...capitalism as from the 80s to today is corrupt in a major way...fault of globalization

I agree with pretty much everything ur saying finally someone shows the truth.

LeBrok
17-09-13, 06:15
I'm sorry but you lost track of argument. All these points are listed where response to your "Same outcomes of US wars", which showed different outcomes, like victories versus defeets, some going according to plan, some creating unexpected mess.
What you posted instead is your feelings about these points, with random thoughts.

Do you agree or not that wars, US was involved in, had different outcomes?
If you think US lost all of them, as you seem insinuating, please argument accordingly.


1. US almost wasn't even in Europe war. War begun in 1939, but US made their famous "invasion" in 1944. That was the end of the war. Soviets asked them from help since the beginning. They promised in 1942. They didn't do it. They promised in 1943. They didn't do it. Soviets obliterated German army, entered Poland, Slovakia, Romania, East Germany and "OMG, Germans are loosing the war to commies, we must help 'em."
I have a book recommendation for you: Russia's Life Saver: Lend-Lease Aid to the USSR


Take it from Zhukov:
"It is now said that the Allies never helped us . . . However, one cannot deny that the Americans gave us so much material, without which we could not have formed our reserves and could not have continued the war . . . we had no explosives and powder. There was none to equip rifle bullets. The Americans actually came to our assistance with powder and explosives. And how much sheet steel did they give us. We really could not have quickly put right our production of tanks if the Americans had not helped with steel. And today it seems as though we had all this ourselves in abundance."

- Favorite Russian troops' food was American canned meat, Tushonka.
- Remember Stalin Organs aka Katiusha? They were installed on Studebaker trucks from USA. Tens of thousand of trucks sent to Soviets.
- almost all aviation fuel and radio equipment (for T34s) was from the US and England.
- tons of rubber and steel supplies.
Without western help Russians would die of hunger first than win the war.
-Plus US crippled German factory production with bombings, destroyed refineries in Romania and tied up 1/3 of wehrmacht forces in the west.



You don't respect my point of view, but you should respect the best russian general.



2. China became communist country in 1949. It's very symptomatic that that's the very same year when MacArthur handed the power to Japanese government. Whoo hoo, more conspiracy...


3. Well, you call that democratic. I call the Usianized. Right, nothing like Yugoslavian communist system. The rest is deep shi-t. What about outcome of US war?
Japan is prosperous, unlike countries who were conquered by Russia.


4. Please no Vietnam. You pushed the country directly from colonialism to 35 years of war, and now you're attributing the consequences to victims. lol, yes play the victim game. Singapore and hong kong was colonized to and look at them now. They've chosen the correct path, the free market capitalism. Who chooses communism is poor. Don't you see the pattern?


5. Kuwait is an administrative zone around the sink hole through which British suck the Arabian oil.
No idea what you mean.
Outcome of US wars?


6. Murder of Hussein.By his own people. That's how they loved him, the friendly tyrant.


7. "It was around the time of this investment, incidentally, that Osama bin Laden made his first trip to the Khyber Pass, where he would soon join the Mujaheddin and the CIA in the holy war that expelled the Soviets from Afghanistan." Again, what this has to do with "outcome of US wars"?

8. No money? After Hitler vandalized half of the Europe (interesting, just the Eastern half). We all know what Russia, Lithuania, Ukraine and Poland looked like after WW2. You can't compare it to Denmark and France (with which Hitler was delighted BTW). You're comparing scorched earth with bridges, theaters and museums.
Germany was scorched too, and look, West Germany was prosperous, East Germany poor and enslaved. Day before Gorbachev opened the Berlin wall, hundreds of thousand East Germans were standing by the gates!
There were no West Germans running away to East Germany. Can't you see the pattern?


Finally to the point:

Same motive - US fighting for "democracy".
No, priority is to fight enemy like communists or nazis, not to change political system. Is Kuwait democratic?
If democracy is US way to rule the world, theyn why is Serbia democratic now? Is US controlling Serbia now?
Plot is thickening...


Same pattern - US organize anti-governmental demonstrations and rebels
Show me examples for these countries, Germany, Vietnam, North Korea, Japan, etc


Same reaction - US people always wonder "Why do we need this war?"
I'm sure you had this reaction in Yugoslavia. Sort of like same pattern "people are killed in wars" all wars.


Same outcome - more dead than in any other solution, country infrastructure and economy destroyed, industry exhausted and in possession of foreign corporations, imposed governments that serves US interests, youth indoctrinated and Usianized and military bases closer to Russia and China. Again, you are describing pattern of all wars, and not anything particular to USA.




1. North Korea wouldn't be in situation like this if there wasn't for US "aid".
Didn't they have good communist friends Russia and China? South Korea has chosen free market capitalism and is rich now. Can't you see the pattern again? Capitalism = rich, communism = poor and enslaved.


2. I'm not supporting Hitler nor his allies. I've never suggested that.


3.Osama's dad was a billionaire, and as I'm informed we could ask Bush because two families are familiar with each other. So Bush asked Obama to kill Osama, because he knew too much? Plot thickens...


4. Yeah, like we think US is there for human rights :)
" Afghanistan has been the greatest illicit opium producer in the entire world, ahead of Burma (Myanmar), the "Golden Triangle", and Latin America since 1992, excluding the year 2001. Afghanistan is the main producer of opium in the "Golden Crescent". Opium production in Afghanistan has been on the rise since U.S. occupation started in 2001".
Yeh, isn't it obvious! Now Americans can pay off the big deficit!
So again, sneaky Americans want to give Afghans freedoms and democracy and spend billions of doolars to protect them from Taliban, just to be able to steal their opium. Now it makes sense...


5. Serbs weren't forced to stop, because they didn't go anywhere. They were where thay have always been, and US cleansed them. Get hold of the facts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyoWem9Nvsc). Right after you cleansed the Bosniaks and Croats.


6. What's the difference. It is now being controlled by paper dollar of US. Some OPEC countries are already questioning this practice, and US is turning an evil-eye on them just for a thought. This thought doesn't make sense. US is buying most of its oil, and domestic oil has to be paid at market prices. US wants cheap oil to get out of recession now. OPEC (is not free market) sets prices by themselves, Russians too. 80% of world's oil is in governments' hands, Russians, Venezuela, OPEC, they need high oil prices to pay their debts and deficits. And yes, even with oil riches many countries are in big debts.


7. Soviets may be poor in money or gold, but there are much more valuable things in life that material wealth. We know who made most money in WW1, we know who sold guns to both Hitler and Stalin, and who issued bonds. It's no miracle some countries are rich, and some decent countries are poor I'm sorry but you have no idea how economy works. It's not about money, it's about production! You produce - you have goods to buy. You don't produce - you have nothing to buy. You can print billions of dollars, but if you don't produce you will buy nothing for your paper money, or gold money. Capitalism is producing a lot, that's why countries with capitalist economy are rich. Communism never produced much, therefore people were poor (nothing to buy). People were unhappy and demanded changes, so communists introduced dictatorship restrictions for citizens. That's why every attempt on communism ended up with dictatorship and tyranny for citizens.
Can you see the pattern? Every communist country was a dictatorship, either one man or one party, well, and poor.

Ike
17-09-13, 14:17
I'm sorry but you lost track of argument. All these points are listed where response to your "Same outcomes of US wars", which showed different outcomes, like victories versus defeets, some going according to plan, some creating unexpected mess.
What you posted instead is your feelings about these points, with random thoughts.


You're the one who purposely involved WW2 where whole world was in and made a confusion. You know very well that I was initially talking about other US wars. Random thoughts? :) Duhh...

I've never said that US lost any war. It is not about the victory or defeat. It is not about how you interpreted the outcome - do Vietnamese think they won, or do Americans, I simply don't care. I'm talking about situation down on Earth. I don't care about mental interpretations of people involved.



Do you agree or not that wars, US was involved in, had different outcomes?
If you think US lost all of them, as you seem insinuating, please argument accordingly.

Where the heck have you seen that I ever said that US lost any war?! From my every post you can clearly see that it pulled off almost everything it could from every war involved.



I have a book recommendation for you: Russia's Life Saver: Lend-Lease Aid to the USSR
Take it from Zhukov:
"It is now said that the Allies never helped us . . . However, one cannot deny that the Americans gave us so much material, without which we could not have formed our reserves and could not have continued the war . . . we had no explosives and powder. There was none to equip rifle bullets. The Americans actually came to our assistance with powder and explosives. And how much sheet steel did they give us. We really could not have quickly put right our production of tanks if the Americans had not helped with steel. And today it seems as though we had all this ourselves in abundance."....

Why are you saying this? I know that. I already talked about that in my previous post. You think that came for free? Do YOU know how economy works, and why US got enormously richer after every WW?

If you label those actions as help, it can be also said that US helped Hitler during.



-Without western help Russians would die of hunger first than win the war.
-Plus US crippled German factory production with bombings, destroyed refineries in Romania and tied up 1/3 of wehrmacht forces in the west.

Yeah, so would Germans be stuck in Poland, if there was not for US petrol.



2. China became communist country in 1949. It's very symptomatic that that's the very same year when MacArthur handed the power to Japanese government.
Whoo hoo, more conspiracy...

No conspiracy. Just a fact. You're to contemplate it.


3. Well, you call that democratic. I call the Usianized.
Right, nothing like Yugoslavian communist system. The rest is deep shi-t. What about outcome of US war?

What about Yugoslavian system? Dude, I don't know what country did you live in, and what did some people who said they were communists did to you, but trust me it seems they were not communist, just as same as todays countries call themselves 'democratic', are totally not like that.



Japan is prosperous, unlike countries who were conquered by Russia.

It seems you just hate Russia. It doesn't have anything with communism. And that you mentally associated your hate towards Russia to anything that has communist/socialist denotation. You have programmed yourself successfully. That's not being open minded.



4. Please no Vietnam. You pushed the country directly from colonialism to 35 years of war, and now you're attributing the consequences to victims.
lol, yes play the victim game. Singapore and hong kong was colonized to and look at them now. They've chosen the correct path, the free market capitalism. Who chooses communism is poor. Don't you see the pattern?

You seem to be obsessed with money. And you value peoples lives with amount money they have. What's with that? I don't get it. You should seriously address that. Don't do it anymore - for your own sake, for your kids sake and for world prosperity sake. Change is slow, but possible.

And stop mocking poor Vietnamese. Is wasn't Vietnamese army on US soil, but opposite. It wasn't Vietnamese army dropping chemical weapons on US soil, but opposite. It wasn't US kids that were born with mutations but Vietnamese. Why are you being so mean?



6. Murder of Hussein.
By his own people. That's how they loved him, the friendly tyrant.

I'm sure that in every country you can find a group of men that wants president dead. Especially if country is at war, and loaded with guns, and dead people whose relatives seek conciliation. I'm sure that you can find lot of Americans who'd hang Obama.



Again, what this has to do with "outcome of US wars"?

I've already told you everything about those wars. Let me start again, and concentrate on what's most important.
"Same outcome - more dead than in any other solution, country infrastructure and economy destroyed, industry exhausted and in possession of foreign corporations, imposed governments that serves US interests, youth indoctrinated and Usianized and military bases closer to Russia and China."



Germany was scorched too, and look, West Germany was prosperous, East Germany poor and enslaved. Day before Gorbachev opened the Berlin wall, hundreds of thousand East Germans were standing by the gates!
There were no West Germans running away to East Germany. Can't you see the pattern?

Yeah, the west Germany was scorched ? Did they build all those 18/9th century building and bridges after WW2. There was almost no war in west Germany. US and UK never really fought Hitler. What happened at Dunkirk? It is now known that Churchill was sorry for not using A-boms on Soviets while they could, before USSR built one.



Finally to the point:
Same motive - US fighting for "democracy".
No, priority is to fight enemy like communists or nazis, not to change political system. Is Kuwait democratic?

I don't believe what aggressor says. Like we didn't believe Hitler, we should not believe Americans. Why do you? You always believe what someone says to you? I don't think so. So, why do you take for granted the 'vindications for war'?




If democracy is US way to rule the world, theyn why is Serbia democratic now? Is US controlling Serbia now?

Sadly but it isn't. There has been CIA organized revolution in Serbia, and they got hold of the government in 2000.



Again, you are describing pattern of all wars, and not anything particular to USA.

Yes, but US is the one who is starting them all. US is the one who is controlling the government. US corporations enter the country, and monopolize markets...




1. North Korea wouldn't be in situation like this if there wasn't for US "aid".
Didn't they have good communist friends Russia and China? South Korea has chosen free market capitalism and is rich now. Can't you see the pattern again? Capitalism = rich, communism = poor and enslaved.

So it's all about free market? Where US can dominate the market with it's enormous wealth that it made in big wars?



3.Osama's dad was a billionaire, and as I'm informed we could ask Bush because two families are familiar with each other.
So Bush asked Obama to kill Osama, because he knew too much? Plot thickens...

What plot? There is no plot. It is obvious that Bush and Osama are old acquaintances, and they must know what was it all about.



4. Yeah, like we think US is there for human rights :)
" Afghanistan has been the greatest illicit opium producer in the entire world, ahead of Burma (Myanmar), the "Golden Triangle", and Latin America since 1992, excluding the year 2001. Afghanistan is the main producer of opium in the "Golden Crescent". Opium production in Afghanistan has been on the rise since U.S. occupation started in 2001".
Yeh, isn't it obvious! Now Americans can pay off the big deficit!
So again, sneaky Americans want to give Afghans freedoms and democracy and spend billions of doolars to protect them from Taliban, just to be able to steal their opium. Now it makes sense...


They just want the resources. Why are you thinking that money has a certain magical value, and that it is valued more that real, material, perceptible goods like cocaine or heroin? They print money....on HP and Epson printer. They don't care about deficit. That number of $12343245 is of no importance. It is important that you have actual control on the field.



5. Serbs weren't forced to stop, because they didn't go anywhere. They were where thay have always been, and US cleansed them. Get hold of the facts.
Right after you cleansed the Bosniaks and Croats.

You obviously haven't even seen the video I've sent you. By saying things like this, you've proven that you have absolutely no idea what has happened on the territory of Yugoslavia. With you being like that, there is no point of speaking about the subject. Are you ever going to inform yourself?



I'm sorry but you have no idea how economy works. It's not about money, it's about production! You produce - you have goods to buy. You don't produce - you have nothing to buy. You can print billions of dollars, but if you don't produce you will buy nothing for your paper money, or gold money. Capitalism is producing a lot, that's why countries with capitalist economy are rich. Communism never produced much, therefore people were poor (nothing to buy). People were unhappy and demanded changes, so communists introduced dictatorship restrictions for citizens. That's why every attempt on communism ended up with dictatorship and tyranny for citizens.
Can you see the pattern? Every communist country was a dictatorship, either one man or one party, well, and poor.

Yes, I know that economy that West created is about money and production. If you don't produce, you make no money and you die, just like sharks - when they stop swimming they die. They got you in debts, and once you lose your job you're out. That's why you have to be humble to your superiors, that made it possible for you to keep your house, your wife and your kids. That's why you work all day till dusk while some other go to Bahamas.

Speaking about economy you also forgot to mention the surplus/deficit relation. Because some countries live in wealth other countries have no food. You look like a Darwinist who thinks that better and stronger should survive, while others should die, and you're pestering me about communism because I think that those people should be given peace and food.

Ike
17-09-13, 14:43
Seriosuly u are going to defend china and north korea and somehow say their life is better than south koreans. This is such a stupid argument i will just ask u to research urself. I have meet many south Koreans and their lives are just as well off as Americans and are gratful we helped and look at america as a close friend.
Seriously I am.



America fought for south vietnam so that they would not be conquered by a evil oppressive north Vietnamese soviet supported government. The war was just stop trying to pose america as having these dark secret evil imperialistic intentions.
But why are they acting like that then? Why aren't they like Sweden, Brazil or Australia? Minding their own business, and let UN initiate actions?



What i know is Iraq under saddem tried to conquer Kuwait and the UN stopped him.

The story is always much more complicated than what officials say. Those civilizations exist there for like 5000 years and there is constant turmoil, yet US is always making it look like "it started one hour ago when one kid stole a toy from another". Majority of US citizens are uneducated, they know nothing about world history and geography and they are lazy to read books, and that's why they take official explanations for granted.



No but u know what i mean i dont think we need to argue if Soviet Union, China, Veitnam, and north korea were good guys or bad guys so thats why i call them communist bad guys. Dont u know what the cold war is it was not USSR defending agianst america advance and american oppression it was america defending agianst communist oppersion and conquering and oppression of people in eastern Europe and asia. They were the bad guys we were the good guys any one from Europe, latin america, africa whatever would agree with that. It was good guys aka the free world in Europe and America against the bad guys aka the communist.

Well, you think that communist are bad but on the other hand, while you think that, US is trying to take over the world and impose it's definition of the world to all. I was never threatened by any communist country. They've never told me how I should live or what I should do. On the other hand western 'democrats' are desperate to enforce that their law clauses pass into our Constitution, and they are usually for the bad of people and for the good of their corporations. I can only agree that it is most beneficial for US citizens, and I can see that there is no reason for you to saw off the branch you're sitting on.



If i was a politician i would study and know the specific's of the wars politicians aren't idiots they have incredible educations and its their job to know that stuff. And yes America intention was good but i doubt we fought the wars as best as we could.

Yes, they are very well informed, educated and skilled. They are working for the benefit of US, as I stated up.


America=good soviet union=bad END OF STORY.
Warshaw Pact and Soviet Union fell apart 2 decades ago. I don't hear anyone mentioning of NATO dismantling, or US falling apart. I guess you're still 20th century cold war state of mind.

Fire Haired
17-09-13, 23:14
The story is always much more complicated than what officials say. Those civilizations exist there for like 5000 years and there is constant turmoil, yet US is always making it look like "it started one hour ago when one kid stole a toy from another". Majority of US citizens are uneducated, they know nothing about world history and geography and they are lazy to read books, and that's why they take official explanations for granted.

Actylley no Iraq is not descended from Babylon or whatever maybe genetically but that's it. There now all Muslims islam spread and conquered the mid east and north Africa in the middle ages. So these rivals aren't that old. Just like with Europe and Rome u don't see people in Europe worshiping Thor or doing human sacrifice or doing any traditional things they did 2,000ybp same story with the mid east. Right now Europe is in what i call the Roman Christian era over 2,000ybp west Europe was in the iron-bronze Germanic Italo Celtic era. It is really complicated but the culture and traditions of tribes and nations that were not Rome pretty much died out same thing happened to the mid east from what i know with Islam. Alot changes throughout history modern Iraqis probably have very little knowledge as much or less than the average american on the ancient middle east.

It is dumb how western people assume since the mid east is the birth place of civilization the Bible is set there and the people seem so ancient because they wear turbins that somehow they come straight fro Babylon its not true. They have changed pretty much as much as Europe has.

America is one of the more educated countries in the world. Ur obviously showing some hate for america finally u are being honest.

Fire Haired
17-09-13, 23:21
Ike i am freaking sick or restarted responses that are just full of hate towards america ur to stubborn to agree with anything that does not say america is evil. Just look it up North Koreans lives suck compared to south Korea same with all of those Communist countries. America is not trying to take over the world. We have helped the world in many ways we are the biggest creator of the modern free world and we created so much of modern technology and pop culture people like america's stuff that's why it spread we did not force it. I love my country so i will always point out mistakes and want them to be corrected i wont defend certain things my country does if it is wrong. I am sick of talking with u ur to stubborn to admit America is not this evil country u think it is. I cant believe u defend north korma. soviet union, and all the other communist who are BAD GUYS period look up the stats ur self. U should see America as ur friend if u look at our forigen policy all we do is try to help countures and help keep human rights and protect and support countries like ur's.

Ike
18-09-13, 00:35
America is one of the more educated countries in the world. Ur obviously showing some hate for america finally u are being honest.

You mean imported educated US citizens? From Moldavia, China, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Serbia, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Poland, Slovakia, etc...

I'm perfectly aware how you do what you do, but it's still a fact that US born children have little or no knowledge about history and geography. They have proven it many times, and that is not my fault. I bet 95 % of your friends can't find France or Sweden on the map.

Why do you say I hate America? I have nothing against US. They have some problems with the rest of the world and I'm just pointing that out. If they didn't have their troops in almost all states of the world in the last 100 years we wouldn't be having this conversation.

P.S. I can't see US as my friend, when it bombed my country with depleted uranium, which will eventually kill lots of inhabitants of Serbia, Balkan, mostly Kosovo (Albanians will suffer the most) their own troops, and UN peace-keepers in large numbers. They never even said they're sorry.

Fire Haired
18-09-13, 02:00
Most people would be able to find Sweden and France on a map. But yes it does surprise me how little most know about Geography but there are imported Korean kids in my school they are not any better and in history class could not answer key part of their countries history. But what we learn in history class and geography is pretty good of course most people don't remember it but the school system gives a pretty good idea about human history and american history. America is one of the more educated countries in the world. The people who get the worst education are inner city kids who have terrible schools and the kids don't care. People in the middle of ghettos don't understand that they have just as much of an ability to be successful if they work hard as a rich suburban kid. Which is an example of how great capitalism is which is one of the founding things in America and what has helped it the most.

From what i know the best Unvirsites are in America for example the Ivy league and Notre Dame and University of Chicago. So ur Yugoslavian i am not lying right no I have had some Yugoslavian friends growing up and Yugoslavian neighbors for most of my live. Someone i went to school with a Muslim Yugoslavian his aunt and uncle were executed on TV by Serbians and there were Serbians in the same class. They all had mentioned that war it is the reason most of them came to America and all came in the 1990's. I don't understand the whole conflict just it was an ethnic thing Croations on Serbians and Serbians on Bosnians etc. but i don't anything after that. Also that there were genocides and tons of killings and that it went on for a while like in Syria and that the UN came in late. U need to understand America wanted to help people u cant except them to create magical bombs that only kill ur enemies. I am sure if the UN did not get in many many more Yugoslavians would die. I dont know the whole thing with the uranium. That is not a reason though to say the UN's intention to end the war was wrong. Without those troops there would be alot less peace in the world america is NOT the imperialistic power u think it is and u cant twist thinks and lie about America's intentions in war's. If they did not say sorry and do something about accedentley killing citizens i think that's wrong.

LeBrok
19-09-13, 03:46
Have you got evidence related to Assad gassing? I think, you haven't. We watched only fabricated footage on youtube. It is unthinkable to persuade society that Assad used chemical weapon against own people.
It's even more unthinkable that rebels used chemical weapon on themselves.
Are you still sure of your conclusion after UN report?
Gas came in ground to ground rockets from NW direction. Now even more evidence points to Assad.

LeBrok
19-09-13, 05:47
You're the one who purposely involved WW2 where whole world was in and made a confusion. You know very well that I was initially talking about other US wars. Random thoughts? :) Duhh...

I've never said that US lost any war. It is not about the victory or defeat. It is not about how you interpreted the outcome - do Vietnamese think they won, or do Americans, I simply don't care. I'm talking about situation down on Earth. I don't care about mental interpretations of people involved.
I guess, now we have to stick to only your mental interpretation of US wars. How objective...



Where the heck have you seen that I ever said that US lost any war?! From my every post you can clearly see that it pulled off almost everything it could from every war involved. Sorry, I didn't have a clue that you've set the rules and interpretations.
Go cherry pick.



Why are you saying this? I know that. I already talked about that in my previous post. You think that came for free? Do YOU know how economy works, and why US got enormously richer after every WW? US was already biggest and richest economy even before the war, so there is no secret that they were still the richest 6 years later. Considering the fact that only US, from all the big economies didn't have the war on their soil and didn't get bombed and ruined, they surely stayed even richer when compared to destroyed Europe and Asia after the war. And yet they rushed with money to help Europe with Marshal Plan.


If you label those actions as help, it can be also said that US helped Hitler during. Why not talk about Communist Russia helping Hitler. At least we have a clean cut communist government helping Hitler and not just few private companies doing business in Germany.



Yeah, so would Germans be stuck in Poland, if there was not for US petrol. I'm sure they would be stuck in Serbia too, and you would be none existent. If you believe the words of the greatest soviet general Zhukov, then you should thank the US for saving your parents lives and yours. He said that Russia wouldn't survived without US help. I guess you know better than Zhukov about this subject.


t seems you just hate Russia. It doesn't have anything with communism. I hate communism because I was born and had to live in it. I don't hate Russia or Russians. I have Russian friends.


You seem to be obsessed with money. And you value peoples lives with amount money they have. What's with that? I don't get it. You should seriously address that. Don't do it anymore - for your own sake, for your kids sake and for world prosperity sake. Change is slow, but possible. Another wrong assumption of yours. You are wrong about me as you are wrong about US and economy in general. I said this:

It's not about money, it's about production!



I've already told you everything about those wars. Let me start again, and concentrate on what's most important.
"Same outcome - more dead than in any other solution, country infrastructure and economy destroyed, industry exhausted and in possession of foreign corporations, imposed governments that serves US interests, youth indoctrinated and Usianized and military bases closer to Russia and China."
Why are you ignoring good stories like Japan, West Germany, South Korea. All prosperous and with US bases on them. You should conclude that having US bases is good for countries, wouldn't you? Isn't it a pattern? Look at all the countries which kicked US out, like Vietnam and Iraq. Still poor.


Yeah, the west Germany was scorched ? Did they build all those 18/9th century building and bridges after WW2. There was almost no war in west Germany. US and UK never really fought Hitler. What happened at Dunkirk?
Yes, nothing was as devastated as East Germany after soviet steamroller when through. West Germany got help from US with Marshal Plan, but East Germany's factories were stripped from all the machines and were taken by Soviets to Russia. You were lucky Soviets didn't "liberate" Yugoslavia.


I don't believe what aggressor says. Like we didn't believe Hitler, we should not believe Americans. Why do you? You always believe what someone says to you? I don't think so. So, why do you take for granted the 'vindications for war'? Assuming that aggressor or stronger country only lies is illogical, same as believing that poor country only says truth.
I don't even assume that you lie, I'm assuming that you see the world differently. From my point of view (as per latest example) your assumptions are way off and you are jumping in conclusion based more on your emotions than logic.




Sadly but it isn't. There has been CIA organized revolution in Serbia, and they got hold of the government in 2000.
Again you're jumping in conclusions lead by your feelings. Logically, there is no benefit for US to disestablished Middle East. Oil prices will go up and this is counter productive to US economy. One of main reasons US attacked Iraq and Afghanistan was to bring stability in Middle East, to make sure oil is produced with lowest prices possible. Saddam already caused two wars there, and Taliban and Al Qaeda's goal was to bring Islamic "revolution" to all Middle East, and the world. Both cases very positive to high oil prices.


Yes, but US is the one who is starting them all.
Wrong memory. Japan attacked US first, North Korea invaded South, South and North vietnamese communists were attacking South Vietnam government forces, Iraq attacked Kuwait, Al Qaeda attacked US. Can't you see that in most of the cases US is being attacked first?


So it's all about free market? Where US can dominate the market with it's enormous wealth that it made in big wars?
Please, enlighten us with numbers how much money US made on Iraq war, or Afghanistan war. Don't forget to subtract the costs of war. Otherwise I'm going to treat this as another conspiracy of yours.




They just want the resources. Why are you thinking that money has a certain magical value, and that it is valued more that real, material, perceptible goods like cocaine or heroin? They print money....on HP and Epson printer. They don't care about deficit. That number of $12343245 is of no importance. It is important that you have actual control on the field.
This number of no importance now is killing Greece and Portugal, and soon can strangle Italy and Spain. If real life shows you examples that numbers matter, how come you keep thinking that they don't. Life shows you otherwise but you keep believing it.
It is like not believing in gravity, because people fly to space and to the moon. After all, gravity is just the number, 9.81 m/s2




You obviously haven't even seen the video I've sent you. By saying things like this, you've proven that you have absolutely no idea what has happened on the territory of Yugoslavia. With you being like that, there is no point of speaking about the subject. Are you ever going to inform yourself? My knowledge of Yugoslavia is not better than yours about the world.



Yes, I know that economy that West created is about money and production. You know wrong. It is about production, money is a tool to exchange products and services more efficiently. Economy can exist without money, it is called bartel market. How do you think people traded before money was invented?


If you don't produce, you make no money and you die, just like sharks - when they stop swimming they die. They got you in debts, and once you lose your job you're out. That's why you have to be humble to your superiors, that made it possible for you to keep your house, your wife and your kids. That's why you work all day till dusk while some other go to Bahamas.
In Canada we work hard and then we go Bahamas to rest. Nothing wrong with this. Maybe you should change your country to more capitalistic one, where things work better for people?


Speaking about economy you also forgot to mention the surplus/deficit relation. Because some countries live in wealth other countries have no food. Let me stress it again, we have a lot because we produce. Canada produces 4 times more food we can eat. Surprisingly we never had a colony to steal from. Actually we were a British colony, so according to your theory of deficit, we should be poor and dieing, right? Please drop these crazy books you are reading. They are confusing you.



You look like a Darwinist who thinks that better and stronger should survive, while others should die, and you're pestering me about communism because I think that those people should be given peace and food.
These are two separate things. One can understand how the world works, what is best economy, how to stay strong, how cruel the mother nature is, or people in this respect. However it doesn't mean one doesn't have humane and social feelings and be a loving father, helpful friend, sending aid to Africa, be a productive member of society, pay taxes and be proud of it.


All successful modern countries have free market capitalism. On other hand from all countries which tried communistic or socialistic economy only two still continues, and they are one of poorest on this planet.
What is your choice? Will you choose with logic, or with your feelings?

Ike
21-09-13, 14:37
I guess, now we have to stick to only your mental interpretation of US wars. How objective... Sorry, I didn't have a clue that you've set the rules and interpretations.
Go cherry pick.
You're deliberately trying to change the subject. You know exactly what wars we are talking about -the war US started, and there are many of them. It's the last wave of US colonization politics that begun after WW2. And we know what happened before that:

a) In the United States in the 19th century, Manifest destiny was the widely held belief that American settlers were destined to expand across the continent. Historians have for the most part agreed that there are three basic themes to Manifest Destiny.
1. The special virtues of the American people and their institutions
2. America's mission to redeem and remake the world in the image of America
3. A divine destiny under God's direction to accomplish this wonderful task

b) The Monroe Doctrine was a policy of the United States introduced on December 2, 1823. It stated that further efforts by European nations to colonize land or interfere with states in North or South America would be viewed as acts of aggression, requiring U.S. intervention.
c) Roosevelt added the Roosevelt Corollary to the Monroe Doctrine in 1904. This corollary asserted the right of the United States to intervene in Latin America in cases of “flagrant and chronic wrongdoing by a Latin American Nation”.
d) In 1928, the Clark Memorandum was released, concluding that the United States need not invoke the Monroe Doctrine as a defense of its interventions in Latin America.




US was already biggest and richest economy even before the war, so there is no secret that they were still the richest 6 years later. Considering the fact that only US, from all the big economies didn't have the war on their soil and didn't get bombed and ruined, they surely stayed even richer when compared to destroyed Europe and Asia after the war. And yet they rushed with money to help Europe with Marshal Plan.
I'm not talking about how big they were, but how much they got bigger during the war. There is a difference between the two.


Why not talk about Communist Russia helping Hitler. At least we have a clean cut communist government helping Hitler and not just few private companies doing business in Germany.

You've automatically diverted all your hate towards Russia to communism, although the two don't always overlap.


I'm sure they would be stuck in Serbia too, and you would be none existent. If you believe the words of the greatest soviet general Zhukov, then you should thank the US for saving your parents lives and yours. He said that Russia wouldn't survived without US help. I guess you know better than Zhukov about this subject.
Germans weren't very fond of killing people in Serbia. Many, many more were killed by Croatians in NDH. It's a different subject, I'd not go into that now.


I hate communism because I was born and had to live in it. I don't hate Russia or Russians. I have Russian friends.
I'm not saying that you hate Russians, but you clearly have a bias for communism and Russian government thing. Soviets were not always good, you know. They sometimes were selfish and watching their own interests. That doesn't have anything to do with communism.



Another wrong assumption of yours. You are wrong about me as you are wrong about US and economy in general. I said this:
Why are you ignoring good stories like Japan, West Germany, South Korea. All prosperous and with US bases on them. You should conclude that having US bases is good for countries, wouldn't you? Isn't it a pattern? Look at all the countries which kicked US out, like Vietnam and Iraq. Still poor.

Stop involving WW2 because there ware many more G7+ (of that time )interests involved. I'm talking about wars that US made with countries that have no football stadium or theater.


Yes, nothing was as devastated as East Germany after soviet steamroller when through. West Germany got help from US with Marshal Plan, but East Germany's factories were stripped from all the machines and were taken by Soviets to Russia. You were lucky Soviets didn't "liberate" Yugoslavia.

So, again, you've interpreted Soviet post war treatment of Eastern Europe as communism. I guess some countries were not treated correctly, but what does it have with communism? Just as same as I know that US is not much about democracy these days, I know that Soviets were not much into communism those days. Why do you fall for their self-designations?


Assuming that aggressor or stronger country only lies is illogical, same as believing that poor country only says truth.
I don't even assume that you lie, I'm assuming that you see the world differently. From my point of view (as per latest example) your assumptions are way off and you are jumping in conclusion based more on your emotions than logic.
I've never said that aggressor always lie. I did not say anything about poor countries. Well, I think you're pretty much logical, but you a) tend to generalize things b)are too naive and trust what other people say



Again you're jumping in conclusions lead by your feelings. Logically, there is no benefit for US to disestablished Middle East. Oil prices will go up and this is counter productive to US economy. One of main reasons US attacked Iraq and Afghanistan was to bring stability in Middle East, to make sure oil is produced with lowest prices possible.
I agree with that. US wanted to make sure for their oil.
That's why they started the war. But whether the region is stabilized or destabilized was of no importance to them.


Please, enlighten us with numbers how much money US made on Iraq war, or Afghanistan war. Don't forget to subtract the costs of war. Otherwise I'm going to treat this as another conspiracy of yours.

I've already told you twice. You're too much into money, and are weighing everything through the prism of money. Getting a nuclear warhead closer to Russian border is way more worth than a bag of paper.



This number of no importance now is killing Greece and Portugal, and soon can strangle Italy and Spain. If real life shows you examples that numbers matter, how come you keep thinking that they don't. Life shows you otherwise but you keep believing it.
It is like not believing in gravity, because people fly to space and to the moon. After all, gravity is just the number, 9.81 m/s2
No, it's not. Gravity existed before it was discovered by humans and before humans knew numbers. Gravity exists no matter if you believe in it or not. On the other hand money has it's worth that is based on the belief of human that one get something in return for it. If there is no belief, it loses it's value. Why do you accept CND dollars for your month's work? Because the government guarantees that it represents the value of your work. Would you take money that I printed on my inkjet for a job you have done? Off course not, because you don't believe you can get anything for it.


My knowledge of Yugoslavia is not better than yours about the world.
It's because you watch too much TV. Plug it out, and take it in the basement. It's so mind numbing.



You know wrong. It is about production, money is a tool to exchange products and services more efficiently. Economy can exist without money, it is called bartel market. How do you think people traded before money was invented?

Why are you going into this? I said precisely "the economy that West has created". Why should we talk about medieval times of neolithic ... I know history, you know history, nice, lets stick to the subject.



In Canada we work hard and then we go Bahamas to rest. Nothing wrong with this. Maybe you should change your country to more capitalistic one, where things work better for people?

1. I agree
2. Leave that choice to others. Countries have parliaments and governments these days. If people think they're living bad, they will change it, they don't need to be "bombed for their own good."


Let me stress it again, we have a lot because we produce. Canada produces 4 times more food we can eat. Surprisingly we never had a colony to steal from. Actually we were a British colony, so according to your theory of deficit, we should be poor and dieing, right? Please drop these crazy books you are reading. They are confusing you.
You are generalizing things. US colonization is directed toward east. They are not insaine to make mess in their own yard.
LoL, this is funny in the light of my previous comment.




These are two separate things. One can understand how the world works, what is best economy, how to stay strong, how cruel the mother nature is, or people in this respect. However it doesn't mean one doesn't have humane and social feelings and be a loving father, helpful friend, sending aid to Africa, be a productive member of society, pay taxes and be proud of it.
I agree. That's why I said "you look like (over the internet off course)". It doesn't mean you are.




All successful modern countries have free market capitalism. On other hand from all countries which tried communistic or socialistic economy only two still continues, and they are one of poorest on this planet. What is your choice? Will you choose with logic, or with your feelings?

There are things that humans value more than gold.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLCEUpIg8rE