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View Full Version : British ancestry almost all from Celtic and Germanic Conqueres



Fire Haired
04-09-13, 05:16
I have seen alot of evidence in Y DNA, aust DNA, and hair color. That people in the British isles trace maybe almost all of their ancestry to Insular Celtic invasions anywhere from 3,000-4,3000ybp and Germanic invasions from about 400-600ad. Since the British isels are so remote you would except they are the most original for their area genetically but they probably have changed the most from migrations out of all Europeans.

Almost all Y DNA of pre Celts is almost non extisint

This is the weakest and most simple part of my argument. Irleand unlike Britian did not face huge Germanic invasions. They do have some Germanic Y DNA from inter marriage and i guess Vikings who also went to Britain. But basically Ireland, Wales, and Highlands of Scotland have kept almost only Insular Celtic Y DNA. They range from 80-98% of Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 i am pretty sire almost all is under Italo Celtic R1b S116/P312 or R1b L21.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b.gif

So before Germanic invasions the British isles would have had probably 90%> Y DNA under R1b1a2a1a L11. When i was looking for Y DNA that may not be from Celtic invasions. I2a2a1 M284 was the first one i looked at. Its age estimates were only 3,000 years old so probably 100's maybe 1,000 years after Insular Celts would have taken control. Also I2a2a shows signs of being spread by other Celts and Germanic tribes in the bronze and iron ages so it would make sense this ws brought over by Insular Celts with R1b L21.

The next candate was I2a1b2 L161.1. It is called Isles but is found in many parts of Europe.

here is a map from FTDNA
http://www.robertgabel.de/I2a-L161map.png

It is by far most popular in the British isles and since it is very popular in Britanny who are Britons who ran away from Germanic invasion tells me it was popular in the British isles in at least Insular Celtic times from 1,500-4,00ybp. I2a1b period is very popular in eastern Europe in central and south eastern Europe it is almost always over 20%. So it is kind of the hg I of eastern Europe I guess I2a1b1 L161.1 is the western and central European branch. It is estimated according to FTDNA to be 6,600 years old i think it was spread by farming and since farming in Europe sprea through first eastern Europe some I2a1b was picked up and brought to centrala dn western Europe. So I think it is a pre Celtic Y DNA haplgroup of the British isles. Since 24 of 31 Y DNA samples from Neloithic western Europe had G2a. and that it seems the farmers that spread acroos Europe from 9,000-5,500ybp who all came from a father culture in western Anatolia were mainly G2a and E1b1b. That most G2a and E1b1b in the British isles in pre Celtic. But it still seems like the Insular Celts nearly made the native paternal lineages extinct deifntley because of conquest.

Red hair and K12b Gedorsian are most popular in the British isles both associated with the spread of Germanic Italo Celtic languages.

Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1 L51 father R1b1a2a L23 is centered around Caucus, Anatolia, and Iraq and also popular in southeastern Europe. There is no doubt that all non mid eastern R1b descends from R1b that migrated out of the mid east. It seems like the haplogroup may have originated there too. So at some point either R1b L23 or its father R1b M269 or its grandfather R1b P297 had to of migrated out of the mid east into Europe anywhere from 10,000-6,000ybp. The Gedorsian in the K12b aust DNA test is a off branch of their west asian. It shows a huge connection in distribution with heavily R1b people.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Gedrosian-admixture.gif
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b.gif
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/red_hair_map_europe.jpg
I think it is pretty obvious the Gedorsian stayed in R1b1a2a1 L51 Germanic Italo Celts as they traveled acroos Europe. And it is highest in the British isles where R1b1a2a1 L51 is highest. maybe because they have the highest amount of blood from proto Germanic Italo Celtic speakers.

Red hair also shows huge connections with the distribution of Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1 L51 not with the rest of R1b though. The reason is probably because as R1b L51 father R1b L23 was migrating out of the mid east it inter married with a very red haired group of Europeans who then became mainly R1b L23 in Y DNA. Then as they spread to western Europe starting 5,000ybp forming into R1b L51 they spread that Y DNA, Germanic Italo Celtic languages, Gedorsian, and red hair in western Europe. It is so obvious that red hair in Scandinavia is from Germanic's. I think it is defintley possibly their brother group Italo Celts spread it to western Europe to. Since The British isles have the most before Germanic invasions it would have been 10-15% this is more evidence they have the most Germanic Italo celtic blood in western Europe. And since red hair is recessive and that they have 10-15% it makes sense that the natives were almost completely killed off.

Evidence England and Lowlands of Scotland have mainly Blood from Germanic invaders 400-600ad.

The Y DNA of England and Lowlands of Scotland has alot of Germanic.

Her is a map of Germanic R1b S21/U16 u can see England and LOwlands of Scotland have about 20-30% more than most Germanic speakers.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S21.gif Y DNA I1 would have not existed in pre Celtic and pre Germanic people of the British isles. Here is a map of I1 and u can see it is very popular in basically the same areas of England and Lowlands of Scotland as R1b S21.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I1.gif

Overall England and Lowlands of Scotland have about 40-60% Y DNA from the Germanic invasions. Also red hair if u look above is 5-10% in most of England Lowlands of Scotland area while in Ireland, highlands of Scotland, and Wales it is mainly 10-15%. The Germanic tribes that invaded would have had about 3-10% red hair so they reduced the amount of red hair.

Also fair hair is higher around England and lowlands of Scotland than in Ireland, Wales, and highlands of Scotland. Obvisouly because of their Germanic blood which came from areas were fair hair is very popular.
http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/274/c/2/europe_blonde_hair_map_by_arminius1871-d4bi138.jpg

This is kind of loose evidence but it does show that The Germanic tribes that invaded Britain really came form were they said they did. and people who say they are descended from them really are mainly descended form them. Since Germanic tribes could kill off so much of the Insular Celtic blood in recorded times after the Roman empire why couldnt Insular Celts done the same 3,000-4,300ybp which it seems they did.

Basically what i am trying to say is people in the British isles are really a results of Celtic invasions(3,000-4,300ybp) and Germanic invasions (400ad-600ad). So their ancestry was truly mixed and created in the bronze and iron ages. It is hard to believe almost twice people groups in the British isles were almost eliminated.

adamo
14-09-13, 19:45
6017 Interesting map of Celtic migrations.

Fire Haired
14-09-13, 20:39
6017 Interesting map of Celtic migrations.

The map makes alot of sense. But for a while people thought Celts came to the British isles not until 500bc. Y DNa has helped so much to track Celtic migrations. Hallstat was at first the oldest for sure Celtic culture. and people thought of it as just a language and it came to the BRitish isles not in a major invasion. Now we know by Y DNA there was a huge invasion of the British isles by Celts in the bronze age 4,000-4,500ybp and since over 50% of western Euro Y DNA is under Italo Celtic R1b P312 we know they did not just spread their language is a random or peaceful way it was very direct and they conquered people.

Degredado
17-09-13, 07:39
So the Celts nearly wipe out the natives, and then the Anglo-Saxons kill off half the Celts, then the Vikings make both of them pay for all their genocidal sins... and in a final twist the Normans (who were probably mostly of Celto-Gallic stock by 1066) finally recapture Britain, never to give it up again. :cool-v:

Fire Haired
17-09-13, 23:28
So the Celts nearly wipe out the natives, and then the Anglo-Saxons kill off half the Celts, then the Vikings make both of them pay for all their genocidal sins... and in a final twist the Normans (who were probably mostly of Celto-Gallic stock by 1066) finally recapture Britain, never to give it up again. :cool-v:

Pretty much The Vikings did not make as big of a genetic input though as the Angeals, Jutes, and Saxons. IF u look at Iceland it has 15-20% R1b L21 which is the majority of Insular Celtic Y DNA so there was alot of contact and inter marriage with Vikings and people in the British isles. The genetic make up of people in the British isles was born in conquering and war for English just 1,400ybp. There not unqiue in that way if u look at human history almost everything is decided by the winner of a war and war is contintley happening. If u look at iron age Europeans, mid easterns, east asians, central asians(Indo Iranian tribes(sycthians and others), Mongols, and Tukrs). war was happening 24/7.

Petter
20-09-13, 13:00
Isn't the Bell Beaker culture a more likely candidate for the spread of R1B? Bell Beaker people were clearly very mobile, especially at sea, and more advanced than the previous cultures. Celts seem like much later arriving people.

Fire Haired
21-09-13, 06:29
Isn't the Bell Beaker culture a more likely candidate for the spread of R1B? Bell Beaker people were clearly very mobile, especially at sea, and more advanced than the previous cultures. Celts seem like much later arriving people.

NO i think Bell BEaker ws conquered and partley adopted by Germanic Italo Celts. Look at what FTDNA has to say click here (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/default.aspx?section=results). I don't completely trust age estimates but they are to young for R1b1a2a1a L11 to be Neolithic origin it would have arrived around 6,000-5,000ybp at the earliest so late Neolithic and age of its subclades show it spreading in the bronze age. u should also click on this Spread of R1b1a2a1a L11 Germanic Italo Celts in western Europe (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?93100-Spread-of-Germanic-Italo-Celts-and-R1b1a2a1a-L11)

Petter
22-09-13, 09:49
Your FTDNA source above clearly states that connecting Y-DNA to language families is controversial. (Also, you don't consider mtDNA in you post above, so it is wrong to say that "almost all blood" is from certain invasions)

For your theory to be true, you must assume that the Celtic language arrived very early to Ireland. Most scholars still believe that it did not arrive before the iron age, around 600 BC. There are a few theories suggesting that it arrived very early, but those are still in minority (and it is always wise to consider all theories, and not simply dismiss some because they don't fit your ideas).

A massive population replacement I don't find very implausible. One must always consider the alternative theories, and at least in the case of Ireland, population bottlenecks may very well lead to Y-DNA homogeneity. The island is small and its agriculture is sensitive to climate change and parasites. However, the diversity map of R1B seems to suggest migration as a cause.

If we assume a migration then a Bell Beaker people invasion is probably the most likely. Those people may have spoken a paleo-European language such as a Basque-related language, an extinct Indo-European language or proto-Celtic. (If it was proto-Celtic I would somehow think that there would be more consensus around the early arrival date, though)

adamo
22-09-13, 11:06
As for what concerns the indo-Europeans they seem to adhere to the hg R1 (R1a,R1b).

Jackson
22-09-13, 11:39
Your FTDNA source above clearly states that connecting Y-DNA to language families is controversial. (Also, you don't consider mtDNA in you post above, so it is wrong to say that "almost all blood" is from certain invasions)

For your theory to be true, you must assume that the Celtic language arrived very early to Ireland. Most scholars still believe that it did not arrive before the iron age, around 600 BC. There are a few theories suggesting that it arrived very early, but those are still in minority (and it is always wise to consider all theories, and not simply dismiss some because they don't fit your ideas).

A massive population replacement I don't find very implausible. One must always consider the alternative theories, and at least in the case of Ireland, population bottlenecks may very well lead to Y-DNA homogeneity. The island is small and its agriculture is sensitive to climate change and parasites. However, the diversity map of R1B seems to suggest migration as a cause.

If we assume a migration then a Bell Beaker people invasion is probably the most likely. Those people may have spoken a paleo-European language such as a Basque-related language, an extinct Indo-European language or proto-Celtic. (If it was proto-Celtic I would somehow think that there would be more consensus around the early arrival date, though)

These are good points. With the clannish type system in Ireland it is pretty plausible that if one haplogroup is vastly over-represented in the elite, it will over time come to dominate, as the elite would have a large number of children, who may also have a large number of children and filter into the general population over the years.

Would be fascinating to know what language was spoken in Ireland before Celtic.