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Fatherland
19-06-17, 23:24
People, the Iain Mathiesen paper on southeastern Europe indicates that the local WHG in the Balkans, who were extremely few in number to begin with, were absorbed, but they made very little difference in the genome of the farmers. That's at least the story so far.

Unless future samples up end that conclusion, relatively high levels of WHG in the Balkans would come from later migrations.

No one knows what the Doric people were like autosomally. We'll have to wait and see if the upcoming ancient Greek dna paper has any samples. That would clear up quite a few matters.

From what we can see from prior papers but also from the Mathiesen et al paper on the genetics of ancient Southeastern Europe, even up to the Iron Age "steppe" ancestry wasn't very widespread in the Balkans. The highest percentages were about 30%, yes, and very sporadic in the different cultures? The Iron Age samples were even less steppe, I believe, than the Bronze Age ones. Some of those samples were Thracian, to the best of my recollection.

Imo, you'd be much better off studying the composition of those samples than looking at modern clusters based on modern populations.

See:
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/30/135616

The problem is Yetos going offtopic with these bizarre claims of Albanians being western newcomers due to the elevated "Atlanto-Med" component in Albanians which is not fully Atlantic, but: part Early European Farmer - part Atlantic/WHG-like..

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-uJ3wHmXSLm0/UFtAN2nsPJI/AAAAAAAAD0g/4sIVqH0icsE/s1600/MDLPatlantomed.jpg

If he stops posting to me with bizarre theories then I will stop responding to him. I might aswell just put him on ignore now.

Yetos
19-06-17, 23:29
The problem is Yetos going offtopic with these bizarre claims of Albanians being western newcomers due to the elevated "Atlanto-Med" component in Albanians which is not fully Atlantic, but: part Early European Farmer - part Atlantic/WHG-like..

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-uJ3wHmXSLm0/UFtAN2nsPJI/AAAAAAAAD0g/4sIVqH0icsE/s1600/MDLPatlantomed.jpg

Now I am off topic?

is that your tactic always?

you named Atlantic which is foreign to Balkans, as local made in balkans
you claim bell beaker
you claimed Cetina river as proto Bell beaker !!!!!!!!
you claim mtDNA connection and matriarchcal lineage connection with Atlantic mark,

you put me in ignore list

Non of these work?

and Now I am off topic and I use an Agenda?

I wonder what your gods have to say about your attitude?

and YES I SAY IT CLEARLY
THE HIGH ATLANTIC MARK IN WEST BALKANS IS NOT LOCAL,
BUT RATHER AN ENTRANCE FROM ROMAN LEGIONS
CRUSADERS
NORMANDS

OR ELSE WHICH I CAN NOT IMAGINE,

Fatherland
19-06-17, 23:33
Now I am off topic?

is that your tactic always?

you named Atlantic whic is foreign to Balkans,
you claim bell beaker
you claimed Cetina river as proto Bell beaker !!!!!!!!
you claim mtDNA connection and matriarchcal lineage connection with Atlantic mark,

Non of these work?

and Now I am off topic and I use an Agenda?

I wonder what your gods have to say about your escaping methods?
Yes, with your bizarre theories.

My points are:
It is not foreign to the Balkans, not anymore than Near-Eastern, West-Asian is.
Check how many times I wrote proto-.
Cetina culture has connections with Bell Beaker culture.
Surviving mtDNA lineages are way more numerous than yDNA in Europe.

You are escaping by putting your own twisted words in my mouth. Don't be sneaky.

TLDR: Albanians have higher Atlantic admixture than Greeks due to our lower West Asian and lower Near Eastern admixture on average.

Bergin
19-06-17, 23:36
When I gave 4 theories after correspondence with Russian scientists, expert for genetic genealogy, people begun overwhelmed the thread with unnecessary and pointless things. They do not even respect for Maciamo who opened this greater thread.

I think Maciamo opened the thread in 2013. And honestly it was a fair option.
We are in 2017.
The goal of last wave of discussions was to assess the huge amount of samples from the Mathieson et al paper relative to the topic (origin of i2a-din).
No I2a-Din or ancestor found.

For some people lack of evidence became evidence (?), for some others hope is still there. As said, fair enough.
I promise you that if/when evidence is shown for the balkan origin of I2a-Din, I will be very happy (honestly, better a lost brother than no brother).

I also apologize for all the Albanian fury, but we really got a J2b2 and a pre-EV13 from that paper, so forgive us some 'balcan-style' celebration.
Maybe the next paper will be your turn to celebrate.

Yetos
19-06-17, 23:38
It is not foreign to the Balkans.
Check how many times I wrote proto-.
Cetina culture has connections with Bell Beaker culture.
Surviving mtDNA lineages are way more numerous than yDNA in Europe.


You are escaping by putting your own twisted words in my mouth.

where did you find that Cetina culture is Bell beaker,
cetina river culture is a secondary IE with Greco-Illyrian helmets and Greek swords,
most important are Vucocar and Vatin, a possible sprunk of Myceneans
cetina is a much later 1000 years, estimated around 1500 2000 BC

Give me a good scientific source that puts Cetina as mother of Bell beaker
And not an anonymous blog of stupidity.

Fatherland
19-06-17, 23:39
where
TLDR: Albanians have higher Atlantic admixture than Greeks due to our lower West Asian and lower Near Eastern admixture on average.

Shifting is relevant.

Yetos
19-06-17, 23:46
TLDR: Albanians have higher Atlantic admixture than Greeks due to our lower West Asian and lower Near Eastern admixture on average.

Shifting is relevant.


that is your 3rd escape,

The answer why Albania has high Atlantic mark is infront of you,
But you still deny to admit it due to a stupid ultra nationalism,

Patriot upper limit is Nationalism
Nationalism upper limit is Ultra Nationalism
Ultra Nationalism upper limit is Blindness and Stupidity

when you understand that, return to the lvl of a patriot,
cause it is value and honor to be one
but it is stupid to be an ultra nationalist

Fatherland
19-06-17, 23:47
that is your 3rd escape,

The answer why Albania has high Atlantic mark is infront of you,
But you still deny to admit it due to a stupid ultra nationalism,

Patriot upper limit is Nationalism
Nationalism upper limit is Ultra Nationalism
Ultra Nationalism upper limit is Blindness and Stupidity

when you understand that, return to the lvl of a patriot,
cause it is value to be one
but it is stupid to be an ultra nationalist
Says who? You are suggesting I'm an ultra-nationalist when you have written "Makedonian original" in your profile?
How are you so sure that you are "Makedonian original" when they haven't released any papers on Ancient Macedonian samples yet?

Ancient Macedonians could have been J2b2-L283 + other haplos for all that we know, along with the Mycenaeans and the Illyrians(as recently proven and me).

You are a hypocrite and I have given you too many chances to continue your nonsensical posting.
Finally, welcome to ignore list.

Kingslav
19-06-17, 23:51
that is your 3rd escape,

The answer why Albania has high Atlantic mark is infront of you,
But you still deny to admit it due to a stupid ultra nationalism,

Patriot upper limit is Nationalism
Nationalism upper limit is Ultra Nationalism
Ultra Nationalism upper limit is Blindness and Stupidity

when you understand that, return to the lvl of a patriot,
cause it is value and honor to be one
but it is stupid to be an ultra nationalist

Very true words for this forum.

Garrick
20-06-17, 00:14
I have already stated Illyrians come from southwest balkans. Specifically Albania. I am quoted for saying this. THRACIANS come from northeast balkans where Thrace was located, and some of the other Slavic members have given solid references to back up this theory.

Problem is that it could not be possible. If you see Greater Illyricum in the Balkans R1b BY611 and PF7563 are nowhere, except something among Albanians (you can notice several carriers in Bulgaria and Romania yet, and beyond Balkans).

If they were Illyrian markers, today whole Balkans would have significant percent these clades.

What is much logical they could came much later, probably from Romania and beyond (any Free Dacian tribe?). We can suppose carriers of BY611 and PF7563 are probably speakers of Albanian and if it is true Albanian is young language in the Balkans. But please I will not discuss this here more because it is moving away from the thread.

Yetos
20-06-17, 00:15
Yes, with your bizarre theories.

My points are:
It is not foreign to the Balkans, not anymore than Near-Eastern, West-Asian is.
Check how many times I wrote proto-.
Cetina culture has connections with Bell Beaker culture.
Surviving mtDNA lineages are way more numerous than yDNA in Europe.

You are escaping by putting your own twisted words in my mouth. Don't be sneaky.

TLDR: Albanians have higher Atlantic admixture than Greeks due to our lower West Asian and lower Near Eastern admixture on average.


NO

THAT IS FROM THE WORK OF Volker Heyd university of Zagreb

A possible explanation for this disparity can again be derived from the chronological aspect of those peripheries. Apparently, the emergence of Proto-Cetina coincides with that of ESKK around the 24th century BC, i.e. the middle Bell Beaker period, when in vast parts of Central Europe, as well as in parts of northern Italy, the decorated beakers are increasingly replaced by the so-called accompanying pottery. Genuine Bell Beakers from around 2500 BC on would then be contemporary with the preceding Adriatic variant of the late Vučedol culture, as confirmed by the two ‘beaker derivates’. Further material of the Adriatic Vučedol also shows this Bell Beaker influence, as, for example, the unequivocal comb-stamp decoration on Vučedol vessels from the Vela Špilja and Tradanj Špilja caves, or from Otišić-Vlake. 17 (http://www.aegeobalkanprehistory.net/index.php?p=article&id_art=10#_ftn17) Nevertheless Vučedol does seem to have shown a reserved attitude towards the Bell Beaker phenomenon at first. Only at the transition Vučedol/Proto-Cetina an observable change occurs and those Bell Beaker elements become accepted, even merged with the local tradition to form a new unity. Against this background Proto-Cetina proves to be not only another Bell Beaker periphery, but a syncretistic culture in its own right. Linking it to the Bell Beaker development is also helpful for the understanding of the otherwise rather schematic inner development and chronology of Proto-Cetina/Cetina: numerous stamped decoration in the assemblages, namely with comb-stamp still, might be at the beginning, followed by the classic Cetina vessels among which incised decoration more or less prevail, to be eventually superseded by largely undecorated assemblages like that of Krajicina Spilja on Vis. 18 (http://www.aegeobalkanprehistory.net/index.php?p=article&id_art=10#_ftn18)

Also from same work

In the form of the Bell Beaker phenomenon those expansive systems reach their widest extension as now not only the continental West and Northwest, the central and western Mediterranean islands, but even parts of Africa are incorporated. Recent research again calls the Iberian peninsula the starting point of the Bell Beaker phenomenon, repeatedly pointing to the high concentration of monotonously decorated early Bell Beakers in the area of the Tagus river estuary. 2 (http://www.aegeobalkanprehistory.net/index.php?p=article&id_art=10#_ftn2) Several new radiocarbon dates have confirmed the early assignment of the phenomenon on the Iberian peninsula – as early as 2700 BC – and therefore put it in close proximity to the transformational wave that had set the stage for the Corded Ware / Single Grave cultures. However, this might be understood in a way that the respective geographical setting and substrate will materialise in very diverse forms, also taking in exogenous factors. Expanding westwards along the Atlantic and Mediterranean shores in the early 26th century BC and reaching the British islands, northern Italy, Central Europe and the Carpathian basin around or shortly after 2500 BC, the Bell Beaker phenomenon arrives at its peak. This should also be the moment when the underlying ideology and, deriving from that, the typical Bell Beaker package is fully developed. 3 (http://www.aegeobalkanprehistory.net/index.php?p=article&id_art=10#_ftn3) However, not a monolithic block can be discerned, but rather a patchwork of diverse Beaker groups in mutual contact. Another dimension arises from interaction with the sometimes very distinct local cultural groups: at least in the initial phase the Bell Beakers are never self-contained. It seems, that the phenomenon succeeds only in some areas in completely absorbing the autochthonous cultures. What we finally see is an impressively dynamic co-existence of different cultural systems between 2500-2200 BC, until the expansion of the Early Bronze Age establishes a whole new cultural basis.

Vucedol Vatin etc are possibly the proto Myceneans or the Proto NW Greeks,
that is a clear IE culure with same characteristics till troyan war,

the link
http://www.aegeobalkanprehistory.net/index.php?p=article&id_art=10


the problem is that bell beaker in West and central Europe is at least 5 centuries older,
and Vatin Vucocar are considered as the first IE spots or stops in central and West Balkans after the Cotofeni which might be the creation of Thracians.

I suggest read Heyd's work.

it will help your theories,
and open your eyes,
why Albania has Atlantic is obvious and infront of you.

No need to create histories about Alliens

it is 1:20 here I have to go,
I will drive till 1200 m high the mountain to celebrate the shortest night.

Angela
20-06-17, 00:15
Now I am off topic?

is that your tactic always?

you named Atlantic which is foreign to Balkans, as local made in balkans
you claim bell beaker
you claimed Cetina river as proto Bell beaker !!!!!!!!
you claim mtDNA connection and matriarchcal lineage connection with Atlantic mark,

you put me in ignore list

Non of these work?

and Now I am off topic and I use an Agenda?

I wonder what your gods have to say about your attitude?

and YES I SAY IT CLEARLY
THE HIGH ATLANTIC MARK IN WEST BALKANS IS NOT LOCAL,
BUT RATHER AN ENTRANCE FROM ROMAN LEGIONS
CRUSADERS
NORMANDS

OR ELSE WHICH I CAN NOT IMAGINE,

Yetos, you can't possibly believe that. Albanians carry y dna lineages that are very low in Crusaders and Normans. I sincerely doubt that the genomic make-up of the Albanians has anything to do with such modern populations. I don't know about Roman input, but Albanians look like a small population originally which then expanded without much if any admixture, so I doubt it was the Romans.

There are documented migrations into the Balkans of Celts, Germanic, etc. in the pre-historic period, which might have more impact on a genome which didn't admix as much if at all with the Slavic speaking migrants.

The descendants of those Slavic speaking migrants got more East Baltic/Northeast Euro type admixture, which changed the proportions a bit.

Imo, I don't think it's any more complicated than that.

Has it ever occurred to you guys that if you did a test on all the males in your lineages, other than the direct line, you might find lines that you didn't expect? Someone who carries I2aDin might find E-V13 for example, and vice versa. I think it's important to think about the implications of that.

Yetos
20-06-17, 00:24
Yetos, you can't possibly believe that. Albanians carry y dna lineages that are very low in Crusaders and Normans. I sincerely doubt that the genomic make-up of the Albanians has anything to do with such modern populations. I don't know about Roman input, but Albanians look like a small population originally which then expanded without much if any admixture, so I doubt it was the Romans.

There are documented migrations into the Balkans of Celts, Germanic, etc. in the pre-historic period, which might have more impact on a genome which didn't admix as much if at all with the Slavic speaking migrants.

The descendants of those Slavic speaking migrants got more East Baltic/Northeast Euro type admixture, which changed the proportions a bit.

Imo, I don't think it's any more complicated than that.

Has it ever occurred to you guys that if you did a test on all the males in your lineages, other than the direct line, you might find lines that you didn't expect? Someone who carries I2aDin might find E-V13 for example, and vice versa. I think it's important to think about the implications of that.

Yes but Albanians carry high Roman Y-DNA.

West Egnatia road is high peak of Aromani and Albanians,
from Thessaloniki to Dyrrachion
and from Nis or Naissos till Dyrrachion the area was full of Roman legions
Nis had more army than Con/polis hershelf.

Fatherland
20-06-17, 00:28
Yes but Albanians carry high Roman Y-DNA.
We don't. Even the Latin-speaking Aromanians don't.

R1b-L23 is an Eastern clade of R1b related to Yamnaya. This clade is both common in Albanians, Greeks(especially Peloponnesse), Romanians and to some extent Bulgarians.

Italians have another clade which was common among Romans.

Fatherland
20-06-17, 00:30
Yetos, you can't possibly believe that. Albanians carry y dna lineages that are very low in Crusaders and Normans. I sincerely doubt that the genomic make-up of the Albanians has anything to do with such modern populations. I don't know about Roman input, but Albanians look like a small population originally which then expanded without much if any admixture, so I doubt it was the Romans.

There are documented migrations into the Balkans of Celts, Germanic, etc. in the pre-historic period, which might have more impact on a genome which didn't admix as much if at all with the Slavic speaking migrants.

The descendants of those Slavic speaking migrants got more East Baltic/Northeast Euro type admixture, which changed the proportions a bit.

Imo, I don't think it's any more complicated than that.

Has it ever occurred to you guys that if you did a test on all the males in your lineages, other than the direct line, you might find lines that you didn't expect? Someone who carries I2aDin might find E-V13 for example, and vice versa. I think it's important to think about the implications of that.
Well said. Some people are trying to come off as psuedo-intellectuals by making things more complex than they really are.

Normans and Goths were mostly I1 as far as I know. Fustan has more info on their specific clades in Albania, but they are a smaller percentage of about 5% I1 or less in total.

Garrick
20-06-17, 00:56
I think Maciamo opened the thread in 2013. And honestly it was a fair option.
We are in 2017.
The goal of last wave of discussions was to assess the huge amount of samples from the Mathieson et al paper relative to the topic (origin of i2a-din).
No I2a-Din or ancestor found.

For some people lack of evidence became evidence (?), for some others hope is still there. As said, fair enough.
I promise you that if/when evidence is shown for the balkan origin of I2a-Din, I will be very happy (honestly, better a lost brother than no brother).

I also apologize for all the Albanian fury, but we really got a J2b2 and a pre-EV13 from that paper, so forgive us some 'balcan-style' celebration.
Maybe the next paper will be your turn to celebrate.

I am very pleased that you do not undermine the effort that I-CTS10228 could emerge after bottleneck somewhere in present day Southern Poland, Western Ukraine, Northern Romania and beyond about 300 BC or earlier in any German or Thracian tribe (or mixed) and connected with Sarmatians. It is key for this discussion.

Thracians and Germans could bring this haplogroup to the Balkans in first century AD or something earlier or later. It is not illogical that I-PH908 could emerge somewhere in the Balkans in that time. If it emerged approximately in 150 AD in Illyrian land somewhere in present-day Bosnia or Western Serbia or surrounding it is Illyrian marker. People can make assumptions (based on current knowledge, research, evidence etc), and they will see how real they are when body of knowledge is greater.

Kingslav
20-06-17, 01:35
Now everyone getting political all of a sudden. Ok. We are Thraco-Sarmatians. You are Illyro-Thracians mixed with other stuff you are debating with Yetos lol. You branch from us, evidence is Albanczyk is 20% I2A + 10% R1A = 30% Slav markers. Your silly I2A-Slav joke you talk about, 30% I2A-Slav is 1/3 of your genes.

Fustan
20-06-17, 01:39
Now everyone getting political all of a sudden. Ok. We are Thraco-Sarmatians. You are Illyro-Thracians mixed with other stuff you are debating with Yetos lol. You branch from us, evidence is Albanczyk is 20% I2A + 10% R1A = 30% Slav markers. Your silly I2A-Slav joke you talk about, 30% I2A-Slav is 1/3 of your genes.

Here are the frequencies in our Y-DNA Project which consists almost entirely of ghegs, who have throughout history, been described as the tallest of the Albanians (and in so, the Balkans).

http://puu.sh/woSyd/f12df0e449.png

I2 is around a measly 3.5 percent, and R1a is nowhere to be found.


I2a and R1a is more common of South Albania, mainly due to assimilation of their subdued slavic population.

Angela
20-06-17, 01:41
We don't. Even the Latin-speaking Aromanians don't.

R1b-L23 is an Eastern clade of R1b related to Yamnaya. This clade is both common in Albanians, Greeks(especially Peloponnesse), Romanians and to some extent Bulgarians.

Italians have another clade which was common among Romans.

Actually, there's quite a bit of R1b-L23 in Italy, although the cline is south/north, with more in the south than the north. There's a lot of it among Calabrians, for example, but whether some went from Italy to the Balkans as well as perhaps earlier having come from the Balkans to Italy, no one knows.

Obviously, we don't know anything yet about the y dna lineages carried by any of the ancient peoples of Italy because we don't have any published ancient dna yet.

Fatherland
20-06-17, 01:46
Actually, there's quite a bit of R1b-L23 in Italy, although the cline is south/north, with more in the south than the north. There's a lot of it among Calabrians, for example, but whether some went from Italy to the Balkans as well as perhaps earlier having come from the Balkans to Italy, no one knows.

Obviously, we don't know anything yet about the y dna lineages carried by any of the ancient peoples of Italy because we don't have any published ancient dna yet.
Indeed. R1b-L23 is the highest in Pontic Greeks of northern Turkey iirc.
I've seen J2b2-L283 in Messapia, perhaps it arrived there with together R1b-L23 with the Illyrians or earlier.
There are also Arbereshe in Italy with those clades.

Kingslav
20-06-17, 01:46
I2A is always slavic marker if you have those genes than you part slav.

Fustan
20-06-17, 01:47
Actually, there's quite a bit of R1b-L23 in Italy, although the cline is south/north, with more in the south than the north. There's a lot of it among Calabrians, for example, but whether some went from Italy to the Balkans as well as perhaps earlier having come from the Balkans to Italy, no one knows.

Obviously, we don't know anything yet about the y dna lineages carried by any of the ancient peoples of Italy because we don't have any published ancient dna yet.


Apulians seem to have some J2b2 that belongs to the PH1751 clade as well which is interesting. Messapians who were Indo-Europeans or Illyrians have been thought to have settled there in antiquity.

I believe there is certainly some ancient Balkan input in ancient Italy.

Angela
20-06-17, 02:00
As you can see, although not precisely the same:
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-Z2103.png

@Fustan,

Yes, that's true about J2b, although it's not just in Puglia.

Fatherland
20-06-17, 02:00
Albanians are not tallest in balkans lol and this not described in history. But this website is useful tool for me and dont want banned so I will follow Angela instruction and not discuss height issues in this specific thread.
You are like a broken record.

Kingslav
20-06-17, 02:19
Google Albanian haplogroups there is valid charts of all haplogroups from all regions Albania.

zanipolo
20-06-17, 08:10
Google Albanian haplogroups there is valid charts of all haplogroups from all regions Albania.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

Nik
20-06-17, 11:24
Woah, so many posts in 1 day over nothing.

Anyway, I did some research on the Atlantic admixture and since even Otzi had 25% of it, it wouldnt be unreasonable to assume that people from the same but more Southern mountain ranges (Dinaric Alps) wouldn't have it in similar levels. That said, Fatherland can be right in assuming that it's ancient.

On the other hand, I noticed that the North-Western admixture is the same for Albanians, South Slavs, and Romanians, and it actually increases in Northern Bosnia and Croatia.

That said, it doesn't seem to me as a recent North-Western input in Albanians. At best we can go on and speculate about Catalans and even that wouldnt make sense why its specifically higher in Ghegs, despite the lack of North Iberian haplogroups in general.

With regards to I2a-Din, I've mentioned before that Dacians and were recorded to have been pushed South-Westwards beyond the Danube and even resettled there. Then the Carpi and other Free Dacians made their incursions there, followed by additional waves of Goths. On top of that, Northern Illyria went also through demographic changes with many of its strongest tribes being utterly destroyed and resettled in Dacia after The Great Illyrian Revolt, as if those mountain ranges weren't already sparsely populated enough for a small intrusion of I2a-Din folks to make a difference.

Then the Slavs came and more and more people were pushed further South or isolated in the mountains just like the I2a-Din. And I insist on the fact that the I2a-Din majority area is historically known as heavily populated by Vlachs who were moved further West by the Ottomans and settled in Herzegovina, Bosnia, Dalmatia, Lika, Northern Montenegro, etc. I'll have to agree with the Slavic members that with the facts I have, I consider this haplogroup to be North-Eastern Balkan and not North-Eastern European.

Garrick
20-06-17, 20:48
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

You gave real results haplogroups covering wider areas from Caucasus, to North Africa.

It is not dispute, R-Z2108* found in Caucasus, R-Z2108 developed during the time and a lot of clades emerged.

It is important for analyze, for different disciplines, genetic genealogy, archeology, linguistics etc. but this is not the thread.

Garrick
20-06-17, 21:17
Woah, so many posts in 1 day over nothing.

Anyway, I did some research on the Atlantic admixture and since even Otzi had 25% of it, it wouldnt be unreasonable to assume that people from the same but more Southern mountain ranges (Dinaric Alps) wouldn't have it in similar levels. That said, Fatherland can be right in assuming that it's ancient.

On the other hand, I noticed that the North-Western admixture is the same for Albanians, South Slavs, and Romanians, and it actually increases in Northern Bosnia and Croatia.

That said, it doesn't seem to me as a recent North-Western input in Albanians. At best we can go on and speculate about Catalans and even that wouldnt make sense why its specifically higher in Ghegs, despite the lack of North Iberian haplogroups in general.

With regards to I2a-Din, I've mentioned before that Dacians and were recorded to have been pushed South-Westwards beyond the Danube and even resettled there. Then the Carpi and other Free Dacians made their incursions there, followed by additional waves of Goths. On top of that, Northern Illyria went also through demographic changes with many of its strongest tribes being utterly destroyed and resettled in Dacia after The Great Illyrian Revolt, as if those mountain ranges weren't already sparsely populated enough for a small intrusion of I2a-Din folks to make a difference.

Then the Slavs came and more and more people were pushed further South or isolated in the mountains just like the I2a-Din. And I insist on the fact that the I2a-Din majority area is historically known as heavily populated by Vlachs who were moved further West by the Ottomans and settled in Herzegovina, Bosnia, Dalmatia, Lika, Northern Montenegro, etc. I'll have to agree with the Slavic members that with the facts I have, I consider this haplogroup to be North-Eastern Balkan and not North-Eastern European.

I-PH908 probably emerged in the Balkan in Thracian or Illyrian land about 150 AD.

And we demonstrated likely moving I-CTS10228 toward south to the Balkan in the time approximately first century of the new era.

We can see YFull.com: I-PH908* found in Serbia, Macedonia, Balkan Turkey plus Sardinia and Baden Wurttemberg.

In Family Tree DNA almost all PH908 are in Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia plus Montenegro, Macedonia, Slovenia, and a few in other states, probably emigrated (no one is in Poland, Ukraine, Belarus... nor in any Eastern and Northern Slavic country).

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/dinaric_alps_dna/default.aspx?section=yresults

Trojet
20-06-17, 23:22
I-PH908 probably emerged in the Balkan in Thracian or Illyrian land about 150 AD.

And we demonstrated likely moving I-CTS10228 toward south to the Balkan in the time approximately first century of the new era.

We can see YFull.com: I-PH908* found in Serbia, Macedonia, Balkan Turkey plus Sardinia and Baden Wurttemberg.

In Family Tree DNA almost all PH908 are in Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia plus Montenegro, Macedonia, Slovenia, and a few in other states, probably emigrated (no one is in Poland, Ukraine, Belarus... nor in any Eastern and Northern Slavic country).

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/dinaric_alps_dna/default.aspx?section=yresults

By far this is the biggest lie you have told us, and you know it.

Here is the facts: I invite everyone to look at the following picture taken from FamilyTreeDNA I2a Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/i-2a-hap-group/about/background) and see that this guy is straight up lying when he claims there is no I-PH908 in Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, etc. In the red box we can see that I-PH908 is spread out in considerable amounts in Eastern Slavic countries among others. Considering I-PH908 ("Dinaric South") phylogeographic distribution is almost entirely in the Slavic world or wherever they migrated, and TMRCA of only 1850 ybp (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-PH908/), its origin must lie somewhere north of the Carpathians. And it obviously could have only expanded after "this tribe's" Most Recent Common Ancestor lived 1850 ybp, which is precisely during the early Middle Ages when the Slavs were expanding and as a Slavic speaking marker.

http://i65.tinypic.com/2zywhux.jpg

Fustan
20-06-17, 23:35
That's a lot of PH908 indeed! I should be more cautious with Garrick's posts, he almost fooled me!

Fatherland
20-06-17, 23:37
That's a lot of PH908 indeed! I should be more cautious with Garrick's posts, he almost fooled me!
Hahaha, what a sneaky individual Garrick is.

Fatherland
20-06-17, 23:40
Great catch Trojet! Garrick nearly managed to sneak his lies through!

I-PH908 seems to be even more more exclusively Slavic than R1a is.

Fatherland
20-06-17, 23:42
Here are the frequencies in our Y-DNA Project which consists almost entirely of ghegs, who have throughout history, been described as the tallest of the Albanians (and in so, the Balkans).

http://puu.sh/woSyd/f12df0e449.png

I2 is around a measly 3.5 percent, and R1a is nowhere to be found.


I2a and R1a is more common of South Albania, mainly due to assimilation of their subdued slavic population.

This is the truth. The real haplogroup frequency among Ghegs with some, but very few outliers of non-Gheg origin.
Add my yDNA there and we'll have one more J2b2-L283 sample.

Trojet
20-06-17, 23:46
That's a lot of PH908 indeed! I should be more cautious with Garrick's posts, he almost fooled me!


Hahaha, what a sneaky individual Garrick is.

"Garrick" thought he could sneak a big lie in, because he thought Trojet was full of it and stopped responding to their lies.


I-PH908 seems to be more more exclusively Slavic than R1a is.

Exactly. People don't realize this due to the "DINARIC SOUTH" label, which was only given to it for the high concentration in the Slavic Dinaric Alps before we had a SNP designation for it.
And some will always fall for this if they only read posts on Eupedia by users like "Garrick", Miroslav, Milan, Sile, etc, and don't get the the latest on this field from other more reliable sources.

Nonetheless, considering the facts I laid out above, it seems to be the most Slavic marker there is.

Garrick
21-06-17, 00:02
By far this is the biggest lie you have told us, and you know it.

Here is the facts: I invite everyone to look at the following picture taken from FamilyTreeDNA I2a Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/i-2a-hap-group/about/background) and see that this guy is straight up lying when he claims there is no I-PH908 in Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, etc. In the read box we can see that I-PH908 is spread out in considerable amounts in Eastern Slavic countries among others. Considering I-PH908 ("Dinaric South") phylogeographic distribution is almost entirely in the Slavic world or wherever they migrated, and TMRCA of only 1850 ybp (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-PH908/), its origin must lie somewhere north of the Carpathians. And it obviously could have only expanded after "this tribe's" Most Recent Common Ancestor lived 1850 ybp, which is precisely during the early Middle Ages when the Slavs expanded and as a Slavic speaking marker.

http://img.pixady.com/2017/06/704721_iph908.jpg

You got nothing due to my worse English where it is obvious that I mistakenly expressed myself.

I changed the sentence several times and in the end I made a mistake, I had to read it once again.

It makes no sense to point due to language errors, and I'm not perfect in English, although I'm personally pleased that I've made progress in English and I do not make too many mistakes as earlier.

Balkanite
21-06-17, 00:30
(no one is in Poland, Ukraine, Belarus... nor in any Eastern and Northern Slavic country).

Actually you didnt make one single "english" mistake in this sentence.
And to me it seems like you pretty consequently tried to deny I2a-slav for all other slavs than dinar slavs.
You managed to write the same point two times in one sentence.
How is that a "english" mistake?
How will you cover the above quoted lie?

Garrick
21-06-17, 00:49
"Garrick" thought he could sneak a big lie in, because he thought Trojet was full of it and stopped responding to their lies.



Exactly. People don't realize this due to the "DINARIC SOUTH" label, which was only given to it for the high concentration in the Slavic Dinaric Alps before we had a SNP designation for it.
And some will always fall for this if they only read posts on Eupedia by users like "Garrick", Miroslav, Milan, Sile, etc, and don't get the the latest on this field from other more reliable sources.

Nonetheless, considering the facts I laid out above, it seems to be the most Slavic marker there is.

Moronic.

It's not worthwhile to comment on it.

Garrick
21-06-17, 01:12
Actually you didnt make one single "english" mistake in this sentence.
And to me it seems like you pretty consequently tried to deny I2a-slav for all other slavs than dinar slavs.
You managed to write the same point two times in one sentence.
How is that a "english" mistake?
How will you cover the above quoted lie?

Few Albanians have warned me of my bad English, maybe you, but I am grateful for that.

Once on Eupedia I made big blame, I said sentences that sounded racist and moderator reacted, but by nature I am an anti-racist.

I thought I could without translate google but really I can not, and not ashamed to say, it's a much better and very useful tool.

Garrick
21-06-17, 02:04
And back to topic.

It is natural that I-PH908 is represented among Ukrainians, Poles, Belarus and other Slavic people what I wanted to say (but made accidental translate language error).

Unfortunately faith of people in the Balkans was very difficult, almost unbearable, in time of Ottomans.

Due to Muslim Ottoman oppression, many people had to evade their homes, including Serbs from Kosovo and Metohija.

Great migration of Serbs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Migrations_of_the_Serbs

During the Austro-Turkish war (1683-1699) relations between Muslims and Christians in the European provinces of the Ottoman Empire were extremely radicalized, resulting in calls by Muslim religious leaders for the persecution of local Christians and Jews. As a result of oppression, Christians and their church leaders, headed by Serbian Patriarch Arsenije III Serbian sided with the Austrians in 1689. In the following campaigns, Turkish forces conducted systematic atrocities against the Christian population in Serbian regions, resulting in the Great Migration of 1690.

Sources provide different data regarding the number of people in the first migration:



37,000 families into Habsburg Monarchy, according to a manuscript at Sisatovac monastery written by monk Stefan of Ravanica 28 years after the first wave.
37,000 families, according to a book by Pavle Julinac, printed in 1765.
37,000 families led by the Patriarch, according to Jovan Rajić, published in 1794–95.
37,000 families led by the Patriarch, according to Johann Engel, published 1801.
Emile Picot concluded that it was 35,000 to 40,000 families, between 400,000 and 500,000 people. "It is a constant tradition that this population is counted by families, not by heads" also insisting that these were large extended families (see Zadruga).
The Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences, supports the figure of 37,000 families.


Only in First migration a large number of Serbs have fled, mostly from Kosovo.

And Croats fled from Muslim Ottomans too. For example with Wikipedia:

"The ancestors of the Croats in the Czech Republic arrived in the 1500s from central Croatia, fleeing before the Ottoman Turks. The period of their settling is at the same time as the arrival of the Croats to Austria, Hungary and Slovakia, who are called the Burgenland Croats."
...

In Ukraine even created an area New Serbia of the migrants from Serbia.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/New_serbia_map.png/1280px-New_serbia_map.png

Nik
21-06-17, 07:23
So you're saying 37,000 Serbs (assuming predominantly I2a-Din even if they're from Kosovo), they gave birth to several million Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, Czech, etc?

Kingslav
21-06-17, 08:16
When this state New Serbia was brought into existince in 1752, Poland ruled over what is now Poland, Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia and also parts of Romania, Russia and Estonia. Former Polish Commonwealth. In these Southern lands of Commonwealth already lived pre-migration descendants of White Croats (Bijeli Hravti) who carry I2A-Din. Serbs didnt give birth to Eastern Europeans, but we did accept Serbs into our lands because they Slavs with similar culture. I2A-Din already existed there but Serbs could brought more.

Balkanite
21-06-17, 09:05
1234567890

Kingslav
21-06-17, 09:25
It is generally considered that the name of Croats - Hrvat/Horvat/Harvat, etymologically is not of Slavic origin, but a borrowing from Iranian languages. It is considered that the ethnonym Hrvat is first attested on the two Tanais Tablets, found in the Greek colony of Tanais in the late 2nd and early 3rd century AD, at the time when the colony was surrounded by Iranian-speaking Sarmatians. The first Iranian tribes who lived on the shores of Sea of Azov were Scythians, who arrived there c. 7th century BCE. Around the 4th century BCE they withdrew before the incursions of Sarmatians. In that area occurred extensive Early Slavic and Iranian cultural and linguistical contacts. - White Croats Wikipedia

Nik
21-06-17, 12:13
I wanna invite everyone to go briefly through these 3 articles on Vlachs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs_in_medieval_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs_in_medieval_Serbia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs_of_Croatia

It is evident that a large bulk fo Vlachs moved Westward from Central Balkans towards Herzegovina, Dalmatia, Montenegro, Bosnia, Croatia, then later towards the Habsburg Empire lands.

There are way too many little clues to consider it a coincidence, together with the I2a-Din peak in South Albania being exactly where Vlachs live, with areas having up to 70% of it.

Seems highly improbable that Slavs who initially settled in the lowlands moved later to the mountains, adopted a Romance speech along with their names and became nomadic or semi-nomadic for no reason whatsoever (the Ottomans weren't a threat yet in that period), then got re-Slavicized again by the 15th-16th century (which "coincidentally" is the time they lost their privileges and became sedentary).

Now of course I expect some members to lecture me on how the term Vlach was simply a profession, that of a shepherd specifically, but I don't buy that crap. Vlachs were Romance speaking (not denying that they spoke Slavic too) and were always a separate ethnic group, even from Albanians that had an identical culture and the language being the only difference, although many Vlach last names seem to have been Albanian, which is to be expected from 2 of the oldest ethnic groups in the Balkans.

From the anthropology perspective (at least for me), that solves the mystery of the more Mediterranean features of the population of Herzegovina, Dalmatia, and North Montenegro. It wouldn't be wrong to assume that if I2a-Din was indeed Slavic we would have had a population with far more North-East European features and at least a hybrid Baltid-Dinarid mix.

Balkanite
21-06-17, 12:53
Stop those crappy wikipedia references guys.
I could write that the whole world stem from a middle age slavic king on a piece of paper, and it would be just as trustworthy as that website.

No one is believing you guys.
You are bringing up a outdated theory proposed in 2013.

Everyone knows that I2a-slav is a marker of slavic expansions, and there is nothing to be ashamed of.

Move on please.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nik
21-06-17, 13:04
Stop those crappy wikipedia references guys.
I could write that the whole world stem from a middle age slavic king on a piece of paper, and it would be just as trustworthy as that website.

No one is believing you guys.
You are bringing up a outdated theory proposed in 2013.

Everyone knows that I2a-slav is a marker of slavic expansions, and there is nothing to be ashamed of.

Move on please.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Look at Wikipedia as a page where several sources are gathered. Find the source that you disagree with and bring evidence. U seem quite ignorant though.

Trojet
21-06-17, 13:27
Look at Wikipedia as a page where several sources are gathered. Find the source that you disagree with and bring evidence. U seem quite ignorant though.

Why don't you try to respond to the facts I laid out above. How do you explain the early Middle Age expansion of this clade, as suggested by its young TMRCA, almost entirely throughout the Slavic world.
Instead, you're pushing for some baseless "indigenous Vlach" theory, as if Vlachs could've only been I2a-Din, and not E-V13, J2b2, R1b, J2a, etc.

Balkanite
21-06-17, 14:08
Look at Wikipedia as a page where several sources are gathered. Find the source that you disagree with and bring evidence. U seem quite ignorant though.

Then quote those sources instead. I do not need to see third hand interpretations written by serbs like yourself.

Hehe i seem ignorant? You are writing "you" as "U".
Good luck making people take you seriously.

Balkanite
21-06-17, 14:11
Why don't you try to respond to the facts I laid out above. How do you explain the early Middle Age expansion of this clade, as suggested by its young TMRCA, almost entirely throughout the Slavic world.
Instead, you're pushing for some baseless "indigenous Vlach" theory, as if Vlachs could've only been I2a-Din, and not E-V13, J2b2, R1b, J2a, etc.

Trojet, you shouldnt expect Nik or the others to counter any facts.

The child does obviously not know what facts are. So for him countering facts is a whole new undiscovered dimension of knowlegde.
Its like schooling my 3 year old nephew. We got to start from the bottom here.
For gods sake, he is using 2010ish wikipedia articles written by serbs, to prove a point about haplogroups. It is very convinient for him though, that way he can keep his greek helmeted avatar while still being a slav.

Fatherland
21-06-17, 15:08
I2a-Slav is the new name, as it's Slavic in origin from North Eastern Europe, relatively recent too.
It only exists in Slavic speakers or areas with previous Slavic presence.

It's ironic that the same people who are discrediting Kenneth Nordtvedt are the same ones using the designation he gave to it: "-Din".


Vlachs in FYROM, for example have alot of R1a and I2a-Slav. Alot of the early Slavs settled in the area.

Ghegs are somewhat Vlachs except that Ghegs don't have that extra MENA or Slavic input.

Ghegs(original Illyrians) are in other words the autochthonous version - opposed to Vlachs who lost their Illyrian identity from Slavic incursions and other, foreign admixtures.

Fatherland
21-06-17, 15:10
Then quote those sources instead. I do not need to see third hand interpretations written by serbs like yourself.

Hehe i seem ignorant? You are writing "you" as "U".
Good luck making people take you seriously.
Is Nik Serbian, or I2a-Slav atleast? Then I am not surprised with his coping, regardless of facts presented.


It's time to accept reality: J2b2-L283, R1b-L23 and possibly EV13(Ancient Thracian sample found with it) are the Illyrian haplogroups.

Nik
21-06-17, 15:39
@Balkanite, I can have a decent conversation with Trojet and rather avoid ye (since you're an immigrant in Ireland). If I'm confused or have a different opinion and engaging in this topic, means I'm willing to learn.

Being ignorant in this field is not smth u should take as an offense, unless ur making a living out of it and I doubt that. You're one of those low level possibly uneducated Albanians that make the rest of us look bad. I'm actually proud we have members such as Trojet, Bergin, or others who's names I can't recall, unlike fake nationalists like you who claim to be Arvanite on other posts just to prove a point.

And as for me being a Serb, first its a stupid conclusion because Serbs hate being called Vlach, as well as being perceived as similar to Albanians. Second, I hail from one of the most Albanian regions and clans so for ur nationalisms sake u should pray I'm not actually a Serb. Where are you from by the way? Gjakova by any chance? I have a hunch.

@Trojet
Which facts are you referring to?

1) I see it as a North-Eastern Balkans and Carpathian haplogroup? You got any facts that disprove my belief?

2) Since Vlachs where indigenous Romanized people, I assumed it was their Westward and Southward migration that brought this haplogroup to its current distribution, while the local Illyrian-Dardanian haplogroups fled Southward and were concentrated in what became the Albanian speaking area of the Balkans, and eventually surrounded by the more Northern Balkanites such as the Romanized Pannonians, Dacians, Bastarnae, Carpi, Scythians, Goths, u name it. Vlachs were even settling in Poland, Slovakia, and Moravia, although it could have been a separate migration that spread it there. So where's the weakness of this theory with regards to the Balkans?

3) I said that many Montenegrin/Serb/Herzegovinian clans were Vlachs. Are you saying that Slavs turned into Vlachs (or were simply called Vlachs due to being Orthodox or simply shepherds as Serbs claim) and later became Slavs again? If not, where's the problem with my theory again?

4) In a region where genetically they make up the majority (70% I2a-Din and 15-20% R1a), why do they look closer to Albanians than to Russians/Poles/Ukrainians?

And one more thing, since you bring up the fact that I2a-Din is present all over the Slavic speaking countries, are you considering the fact that most of the I2a-Din in West and East Slavs is actually I2a-Din-North and not South? From what I remember, I-North is older so its distribution to North-Eastern Europe doesn't have to be linked to the same population movements that spread it in the Balkans. What do you think?

Fustan
21-06-17, 15:44
I would propose that haplogroup G is also native combined with the haplogroups on Father's excellent post above, since (if I recall correctly) it was found in Neolithic Thessaly (or was it Thessaloniki?).

I2a-Slav however, is obviously not.

Balkanite
21-06-17, 15:49
Is Nik Serbian, or I2a-Slav atleast? Then I am not surprised with his coping, regardless of facts presented.

I guess only a I2a-slav would go through such lengths, just to confuse people with this non sense about I2a-slav being a Thracian or Illyrian paternal line.


It's time to accept reality: J2b2-L283, R1b-L23 and possibly EV13(Ancient Thracian sample found with it) are the Illyrian haplogroups.
And yes, what you are saying here is not only logical, but everyone with eyes(and knowlegde of ancient DNA+TMRCA) should be able to see these facts.

And i believe that most people here on eupedia who understands these basic principles of genetics, they know that you are right.

Unfortunately there is a little gang of wikipedia citers who constantly try to spam this thread with outdated, altered and absurd third hand sources, trying to pollute the minds of the new eupedia users with theories of some long lost slavic speaking thracians bearing the haplogroup of I2a-slav.

Nik
21-06-17, 15:49
Vlachs in FYROM, for example have alot of R1a and I2a-Slav. Alot of the early Slavs settled in the area.

Ghegs are somewhat Vlachs except that Ghegs don't have that extra MENA or Slavic input.

Ghegs(original Illyrians) are in other words the autochthonous version - opposed to Vlachs who lost their Illyrian identity from Slavic incursions and other, foreign admixtures.
1) Romanians have R1a and I2a-Din too and those haplgroups are not exclusive to Slavs. They could have been Dacian, Scythian, Bastarnae, Sarmatian, Balts, East Germans.

2) Vlach is a wide term as they are local Romanized Balkanites, so obviously they belong to a different mix of haplogroups depending on the region they settled or the region they hailed from. If they were Greeks, obviously they have a lot of J2a and E-V13, if Illyrians they must have J2b, E-V13, and R1b, and if they were Dacians they could be I2a, R1a, E-V13, R1b. Do you get it?

Just for curiosity since you took Balkanite's "accusation" of me being Serb for granted, where are you from then?

Fatherland
21-06-17, 15:55
1) Romanians have R1a and I2a-Din too and those haplgroups are not exclusive to Slavs. They could have been Dacian, Scythian, Bastarnae, Sarmatian, Balts, East Germans.

2) Vlach is a wide term as they are local Romanized Balkanites, so obviously they belong to a different mix of haplogroups depending on the region they settled or the region they hailed from. If they were Greeks, obviously they have a lot of J2a and E-V13, if Illyrians they must have J2b, E-V13, and R1b, and if they were Dacians they could be I2a, R1a, E-V13, R1b. Do you get it?

Just for curiosity since you took Balkanite's "accusation" of me being Serb for granted, where are you from then?
You are confusing modern haplogroups with Ancient while there is no proof.

I am what I am - an Illyrian, a Ghegide. Of the same stock as the Ancient Illyrian man they found in Dalmatia: J2b2-L283.

I am not a Vlach who are of mixed races, neither am I a Slav who came from the swamps of North Eastern Europe.

You are just speculating. We don't know what Ancient Greeks carried in the mainland until Ancient samples are out.
The Ancient EV13 that was found was Thracian.

Not every haplogroup that exists in modern people belonged to Ancient people that we know.

Trojet
21-06-17, 15:59
@Nik, I don't have time to be repeating myself over and over. Please read my numerous posts again in this thread, if you didn't pay close attention.

In short: It matters less which "Dinaric" cluster (North or South) is more common in the Balkans or East Slavs. Percentages are meaningless. What matters is both are present in considerable amounts in East, West, and South Slavs. Considering that North of the Carpathians there is many samples who are ancestral to the "Dinaric" clade (I-CTS10228), and nowhere south of the Carpathians, it's origin most definitely lies North of the Carpathians. And also considering it's young TMRCA, it expanded as part of Slavic migrations. I have nothing else to say.

If you're one of the Albanians who carries this clade, you have nothing to worry about, as it by no means changes your ethnic identity. Afterall the Y-DNA represents the origin of only one of your many ancestral lines. Although my Y-DNA and maternal Y-DNA are not I-CTS10228, if I were to test my many other ancestral lines, this clade will most likely show up. The Slavs have been living near us for the last 1500 years. So it is to be expected that we have some genetic input. But in the end it doesn't change our ethnic identity. Just like the Slavs have a considerable amount of Pre-Slavic Y-DNA, but in the end they are still Slavs. There is no present Balkan population that is genetically 100% the same as Pre-Slavic Paleo-Balkan populations. However, considering the data, the Gheg Albanians are to the closest thing we have.

Fustan
21-06-17, 16:00
Nik, if you're I2a-Slav (like it seems you are) there is nothing wrong with that man!
It's a perfectly fine haplogroup that exists in our Slavic neighbors, so it's not a totally alien haplogroup, like say H.

Nik
21-06-17, 16:01
You are confusing modern haplogroups with Ancient while there is no proof.

I am what I am - an Illyrian, a Ghegide. Of the same stock as the Ancient Illyrian man they found in Dalmatia: J2b2-L283.

I am not a Vlach who are a of mixed race, neither am I a Slav who came from the swamps of North Eastern Europe.

You are just speculating. We don't know what Ancient Greeks carried in the mainland until Ancient samples are out.
The Ancient EV13 that was found is Thracian.
So, I give an opinion and I clearly state that it's just a theory while you are so confident that I2a-Din is Slavic that even decided to change its name to I2a-Slavic, yet I am the one speculating? Jeez.

Yeah, yeah, you're the descendant of Bato I know. I mean which region and which clan? Ghegide, lol. Chilling too much with Greeks? Simply Gheg would suffice.

Garrick
21-06-17, 16:03
So you're saying 37,000 Serbs (assuming predominantly I2a-Din even if they're from Kosovo), they gave birth to several million Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, Czech, etc?

There was 37000 families it is between 400000 and 500000 people according to Emile Picot, and this is only one migration.

"Emile Picot concluded that it was 35,000 to 40,000 families, between 400,000 and 500,000 people. "It is a constant tradition that this population is counted by families, not by heads" also insisting that these were large extended families (see Zadruga)."

Fatherland
21-06-17, 16:08
Ghegide, lol. Chilling too much with Greeks? Simply Gheg would suffice.

Wrong. Ghegide is an early exonym given by Western travelers in Albania when they studied the populations of the Balkans.

I can see however, you have been chilling out too much with Slavs. Perhaps you are one yourself.

Nik
21-06-17, 16:13
@Nik, I don't have time to be repeating myself over and over. Please read my numerous posts again in this thread, if you didn't pay close attention.

In short: It matters less which "Dinaric" cluster (North or South) is more common in the Balkans or East Slavs. Percentages are meaningless. What matters is both are present in considerable amounts in East, West, and South Slavs. Considering that North of the Carpathians there is many samples who are ancestral to the "Dinaric" clade (I-CTS10228), and nowhere south of the Carpathians, it's origin must lie North of the Carpathians. And also considering it's young TMRCA, it expanded as a part of Slavic migrations. I have nothing else to say.

If you're one of the Albanians who carries this clade, you have nothing to worry about, as it by no means changes your ethnic identity. Afterall the Y-DNA represents the origin of only one of your many ancestral lines. Although my Y-DNA and maternal Y-DNA are not I-CTS10228, I'm sure this clade will show up in one of my many other ancestral lines if I test them. The Slavs have been living among us for the last 1500 years. So it is to be expected that we have some genetic input. But in the end it doesn't change our ethnic identity. Just like the Slavs have a considerable amount of Pre-Slavic Y-DNA, but in the end they are still Slavs. There is no present Balkan population that is genetically 100% the same as Pre-Slavic Paleo-Balkan populations. However, considering the data, the Gheg Albanians are to the closest thing we have.
Nobody asked u to repeat urself. If ur tired u can leave, its not a classroom. I asked u some direct questions and expected u to answer each of them with a Yes or No.

Anyway, I have read everything u have said and understood ur point long before I knew u existed. Obviously u learned all these from other posts just and articles just like I did. It seems ur not getting my point.

Are you saying that the Slavic homeland is exactly where I2a-Din was formed? Because from my knowledge it isnt and even if it is, haplogroups are shared by several neighbouring ethnicities.

In the case of the area around the North Carpathians, I'm sure u know there were Dacians, Scythians, Goths, Sarmatians, Slavs, Balts, etc. there, right?

And as for me being I2a-Din, lol. That's why all of u are reacting so negatively? The explanation u made should be actually directed to Balkanite because he seems like the type to offended by the change of having I2a admixture.

No, I'm not I2a and although I haven't tested myself, its highly unlikely that I am I2a. U know me from another forum and you're waiting for me to test myself ;)

Nik
21-06-17, 16:15
Wrong. Ghegide is an early exonym given by Western travelers in Albania when they studied the populations of the Balkans.

I can see however, you have been chilling out too much with Slavs. Perhaps you are one yourself.
Just tell me where u r from Bato. Albanians never called themselves Ghegides and the ending is Greek, just like Toskides, Liapides, Tsamides, no matter who used that version. Well what do u know, u just learnt smth.

Balkanite
21-06-17, 16:16
Editeditedit

Fatherland
21-06-17, 16:22
Just tell me where u r from Bato. Albanians never called themselves Ghegides and the ending is Greek, just like Toskides, Liapides, Tsamides, no matter who used that version. Well what do u know, u just learnt smth.
Strawman arguments after one another.

I am what I am. No need for u to complicate it any further.
I suggest u check with ur I2a-Slav relatives since u don't answer what ​u are asking.


Stop coping, you're not worth wasting my time on with your unintelligent posts.

gyms
21-06-17, 16:25
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0179474

For Haplogroup I2 breakdown, it is much higher in Turkish Cypriots than Greek Cypriots.

For Turkish Cypriot I2, the number is 26

1. I-P37: 18
2. I-L596: 4 (I2c)
3. I-M223: 4

For Greek Cypriot I2, the number is 9

1. I-P37: 6
2. I-L596: 2 (I2c)
3. I-M223: 1

Essentially they both look the same except Turkish Cypriots have 3x the amount of I2.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10974-Greek-Cypriots-and-Turkish-Cypriots-have-common-paternal-roots!-(new-study)

gyms
21-06-17, 16:31
Alexander Varzari, V. Kharkov, Wolfgang Stephan, V. Dergachev, V. Puzyrev, E. H. Weiss, and Vadim Stepanov. "Searching for the origin of Gagauzes: inferences from Y-chromosome analysis." (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19107901) American Journal of Human Biology 21:3 (May-June 2009): pages 326-336. Excerpts from the Abstract:
"[...] The origin of the Gagauzes is obscure. They may be descendants of the Turkic nomadic tribes from the Eurasian steppes, as suggested by the "Steppe" hypothesis, or have a complex Anatolian-steppe origin, as postulated by the "Seljuk" or "Anatolian" hypothesis. To distinguish these hypotheses, a sample of 89 Y-chromosomes representing two Gagauz populations from the Republic of Moldova was analyzed for 28 binary and seven STR polymorphisms. In the gene pool of the Gagauzes a total of 15 Y-haplogroups were identified, the most common being I-P37 (20.2%), R-M17 (19.1%), G-M201 (13.5%), R-M269 (12.4%), and E-M78 (11.1%).


Ivan Nasidze, Dominique Quinque, Irina Udina, Svetlana Kunizheva, and Mark Stoneking. "The Gagauz, a Linguistic Enclave, are Not a Genetic Isolate." (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17147693) Annals of Human Genetics 71(Part 3) (May 2007): pages 379-389. First published online on November 28, 2006. This study examines uniparental DNA. Gagauzians are more closely related to their non-Turkic neighbors in southeastern Europe than to Anatolian Turks. Table 3, "Y chromosome SNP haplogroup frequencies in Moldavians and Gagauz, and their geographic neighbours", reveals the following frequencies for Gagauz people according to the 49 Gagauzians sampled:
20.4% in E-YAP,
2% in F-M89,
4.1% in G-M201,
32.7% in I-M170,
14.3% in J2-M172,
2% in K-M9,
2% in P-M45,
8.2% in R1-M173,
14.3% in R1a1-M17.

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/gagauzians.html

Trojet
21-06-17, 16:32
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0179474

For Haplogroup I2 breakdown, it is much higher in Turkish Cypriots than Greek Cypriots.

For Turkish Cypriot I2, the number is 26

1. I-P37: 18
2. I-L596: 4 (I2c)
3. I-M223: 4

For Greek Cypriot I2, the number is 9

1. I-P37: 6
2. I-L596: 2 (I2c)
3. I-M223: 1

Essentially they both look the same except Turkish Cypriots have 3x the amount of I2.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10974-Greek-Cypriots-and-Turkish-Cypriots-have-common-paternal-roots!-(new-study)

None of the I2 are I2a-Din. So this post is not even relevant to this thread

Balkanite
21-06-17, 16:38
@nik
You shouldnt be calling people ignorant when you are still writing "u" and "ur" like a fifth grader.

Move on and let the men do the talking.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fatherland
21-06-17, 16:43
It saddens me to see that some Ghegs have degraded to the level of homosexual nerds who masturbate while reading the history of their forefathers. YOU must be one of those Kosovo or Montenegro immigrants softened by the Western culture, so YOU can put that J2b2 of yours wherever it pleases YOU ;)
I'm not opening the door for foreign and modern haplogroups into Ancient Illyrian or Thracian genepool like some fantasy action story.

I'm not the one who masturbates to Ancient people and supposed haplogroups in them like you do, your avatar and posting history gives great hints to that.

I saw your previous posts, they are laughable.

Like I said, don't be a hypocrite.

Reported by the way. This is unacceptable behavior for a member that has been here since 2010.

Garrick
21-06-17, 16:46
1) Romanians have R1a and I2a-Din too and those haplgroups are not exclusive to Slavs. They could have been Dacian, Scythian, Bastarnae, Sarmatian, Balts, East Germans.


Yes, we have enough evidence about this.

Objectively, who wants facts (no politics, no ideology) older clades of I-CTS10228 were in Western and Northern Europe. After bottleneck very probably I-CTS10228 emerged in any eastern German tribe, and in this topic one member suggested it is Bastarnae. And Bastarnae had Sarmatian and Thracian (Getae-Dacian) influence too.

If we see tribes in present-day areas Eastern Slovakia, South-East Poland, Northern Romania, Western Ukraine, Northern Moldavia and beyond we can say:

I-CTS10228 was in genetic fund of Thracians (Getae-Dacians), and some Germans and Sarmatians after bottleneck, 300 (or more years) BC.

Can anyone dispute this anymore.

Authors calculated TMRCA differently, between 2300 and 3000 ybp, but it doesn't matter, if someone likes Nordtvedt and Klyosov and their methods we will take 2300 ybp as referent calculation.

It means in that time, German, Thracian and Sarmatian people were carriers of this haplogroup. Thracian and German (Gothic) tribes carried this haplogroup to the south e.g. Balkans and Sarmatians carried this haplogroup to the East and North.

If this is factual situation therefore it is ridiculous that someone calls I-CTS10228 Slavic marker, it doesn't matter if he or she is Pan-Slavist, or Albanian nationalist, or from Mars, etc.

Fatherland
21-06-17, 16:47
I-CTS10228 is exclusively Slavic while R1a is not.

I-CTS10228 is how the Slavic ethnogenesis came about.

Deal with it, regardless if you have been a member here propagating fantasy stories since 2010.

Balkanite
21-06-17, 16:53
Uuuuu an internet bully. I feel abused. Disgusting softened mama's boys.

By the way, u said shouldnt instead of shouldn't. Ha ha

It is easy for you to act tough online my slavic friend

Trojet
21-06-17, 17:08
The doors are not urs to open in the first place. Ur just some haplogroup enthusiast so dont give urself so much credit.

My avatar? What does that have to do with anything? Usually I put Pyrrhus of Epirus but that was taken from another member.

My posts are laughable? Give examples or dont bother at all like an angry kid bringing up avatars and previous posts into the conversation.

Everything we claim at this point is a theory and only the ancient dna will be the judge of who's theory was right and who was fantasizing. So stop speculating and calling my theory a fantasy action story boy. But then again, a true Gheg knows that patience is a virtue of real men, not westernized pidh mashkull wannabes like urself. Now go complain to mama or some moderator in this case. I'm done with scum.

You're offending here. This in unacceptable.

Trojet
21-06-17, 17:09
Delete....

Garrick
21-06-17, 18:19
I-CTS10228 is exclusively Slavic while R1a is not.

I-CTS10228 is how the Slavic ethnogenesis came about.

Deal with it, regardless if you have been a member here propagating fantasy stories since 2010.

No, the opposite, I-CTS10228 originally nothing to do with Slavs.
...

Anyone who really wants to follow back until to Loschbour (Luxemburg) and Motala (Sweden) will notice areas in Europe where older clades could be.

Follow forward, since its creation, I-CTS10228 barely survived and after bottleneck it could emerged most probably in some German tribe, spreading to Thracians (Getae-Dacians) and Sarmatians.

Fustan
21-06-17, 18:41
Give me ur real name in private and I'll add u as a friend on Facebook immediately. From then on arrange a meeting with me anytime u come to Albania (unless ur from Kosovo).


Why are you so angry dude? No need for personal threats! Just because you're I2a doesn't mean youre not Albanian, only that generations ago you had a Slavic great grandfather.

Angela
21-06-17, 18:53
Nik has gone bye-bye. Anyone else who posts foul, disgusting insults and threats will do the same.

Am I clear?

Garrick
21-06-17, 20:09
We can locate wider area where I-CTS10228 could emerge after bottleneck, 300 BC.

What do we have?

This is based on Ptolomey's book.

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00maplinks/mughal/porro1598/europe08sarmatia.jpg

What do we see?

German, Thracian (and Sarmatian) tribes in areas where I-CTS10228 emerged. For example:

Bondini, Geurini, Peucini, Carpani, Basternae, Tagri, Tyrangetae etc.


Look carefully and tell:

Where are Slavs?

...

I-CTS10228 didn't emerge after bottleneck in 300 BC among Slavs.

I-CTS10228 is not Slavic marker.

I-CTS10228 can be German or Thracian (Getae-Dacian) marker or mixed German/Thracian marker if it is impossible precisely determine.

IronSide
21-06-17, 20:24
I feel this thread will go on forever.

Yetos
21-06-17, 20:33
I feel this thread will go on forever.

+1 from me
I agree
Aimos peninsula is unigue

Angela
21-06-17, 21:13
This is just spamming the same stuff over and over again.

There is absolutely nothing new. Even finding I2a-Din in a member of one of the Slavic speaking tribes who moved into the former Yugoslavia in the Middle Ages, should that happen, won't convince him.

Garrick
21-06-17, 21:34
I feel this thread will go on forever.

I think this thread is elaborated.

We gave four theories in science:

1. Slavic theory
2. Thracian theory
3. German theory
4. Illyrian theory.

We concluded:

1) Theory 4. is not possible for I-CTS10228, but it could be possible for younger clade I-PH908 (I-PH908 could be Illyrian if emerged in 150 AD in Illyricum, or Thracian marker if emerged in 150 in land of Thracian tribes, or anything third)

2) I-CTS10228 could not emerge among Slavs because Slavs were not in areas where this haplogroup could appear after bottleneck.

3) I-CTS10228 could be German or Thracian marker, or mixed German/Thracian marker.

It means Maciamo can be right that I-CTS10228 came to the Balkans with Thracians (Getae-Dacians). Plus Germans.

I-CTS10228 didn't come to Balkans with Illyrians, but probability exists younger clade I-PH908 could be emerged among Illyrians.

...
I am not passionate interested for this thread more, because Maciamo's assumption is proven to be plausible (one part for Thracians/Dacians) except someone brings new scientific facts. And I'm not interested in bickering.

Garrick
21-06-17, 21:55
This is just spamming the same stuff over and over again.

There is absolutely nothing new. Even finding I2a-Din in a member of one of the Slavic speaking tribes who moved into the former Yugoslavia in the Middle Ages, should that happen, won't convince him.

Angela, let's see from both perspectives. Because it is possible, what you say, with probability 1. Of course it is possible that scientists find I-CTS10228 in the Balkans in 1 or 2 century. Because carriers of haplogroup moved on the south, on the east and on the north many times for 2300 years. Many tribes could bring this haplogroup. But here other question dominated: where I-CTS10228 carrier emerged after bottleneck 300 BC, among Slavs, among Thracians, among Germans or among Illyrians.

Kingslav
22-06-17, 00:26
I-CTS10228 is exclusively Slavic while R1a is not.

I-CTS10228 is how the Slavic ethnogenesis came about.

Deal with it, regardless if you have been a member here propagating fantasy stories since 2010.

Wrong again, and I have only read up to 10:47 am today lol. R1A is exclusive Slav marker that was acquired from assimilation of Balts, Sarmatians and Nordics to make your famous "Proto-Slavs" the blonde hair kind which can ironically be found in Albania also. I2A-Din is Dinaric marker the "Tall Slavs" which is mix of Thracians, Sarmatians, Goths. These dudes are making valid point and citing all there sources. And you guys don't cite anything and just argue. I am starting to believe your source is that Balkans DNA video on youtube with groups like Thracians Illyrians etc you know what I'm talking about, that looks like a third grader made for his social sciences project. Propaganda.

Angela
22-06-17, 00:31
Wrong again, and I have only read up to 10:47 am today lol. R1A is exclusive Slav marker that was acquired from assimilation of Balts, Sarmatians and Nordics to make your famous "Proto-Slavs" the blonde hair kind which can ironically be found in Albania also. I2A-Din is Dinaric marker the "Tall Slavs" which is mix of Thracians, Sarmatians, Goths. These dudes are making valid point and citing all there sources. And you guys don't cite anything and just argue. I am starting to believe your source is that Balkans DNA video on youtube with groups like Thracians Illyrians etc that looks like a third grader made for his social sciences project. Propaganda.

After all of the papers of the recent years how can you possibly say R1a is exclusively a Slav marker?

When R1a formed there were no Slavs, for goodness' sakes.

Sometimes I feel like Alice down the rabbit hole. Or Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz: I don't think this is Kansas anymore, Toto!

@Garrick
You have to also consider where was his father, and his father? Where was the specific subclade which led to this one? Don't you see that? From everything I can see, it looks like it was north of the Carpathians, and so, no, not "autochthonous", and less "native" in the former Yugoslavia probably than E-V13 and J2b and R1b and G2a. I think I2a-Din is late in the Balkans, maybe as late as R1a.

Not that I see why this should have any importance whatsoever.

Kingslav
22-06-17, 01:06
After all of the papers of the recent years how can you possibly say R1a is exclusively a Slav marker?

When R1a formed there were no Slavs, for goodness' sakes.

Sometimes I feel like Alice down the rabbit hole. Or Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz: I don't think this is Kansas anymore, Toto!

@Garrick
You have to also consider where was his father, and his father? Where was the specific subclade which led to this one? Don't you see that? From everything I can see, it looks like it was north of the Carpathians, and so, no, not "autonomous", and less "native" probably than E-V13 and J2b.

Not that I see why this should have any importance whatsoever.

I agree Angela R1A formed in Indian south-continent that is why my other cousins Afghans, North Indians, Tajiks, etc carry R1A. We know Sarmatians originated in Asia and carried R1A based off archaeological findings I can source for you. R1A people were first to domesticate horse allowing them to travel further than any race ever before. When R1A diversified 5300 years ago in steppe it was being brought by Sarmatians and then mixed with Balts and Nordics. To make the blonde hair Northeast Slavs. Didn't happen overnight took many generations and thousands of years. I am Slav so I believe this, what is your other theory of how R1A spread? If I may ask, and apologize for confusion I meant to say R1A is Slavic marker in EUROPE as R1A is also found in Afghans, North Indians, Tajiks, etc.

Garrick
22-06-17, 05:44
@Garrick
You have to also consider where was his father, and his father? Where was the specific subclade which led to this one? Don't you see that? From everything I can see, it looks like it was north of the Carpathians, and so, no, not "autochthonous", and less "native" in the former Yugoslavia probably than E-V13 and J2b and R1b and G2a. I think I2a-Din is late in the Balkans, maybe as late as R1a.

Not that I see why this should have any importance whatsoever.

I don't see that someone denounce this. Some old I2a branches were in the Balkans 9000 years ago and earlier. If we are talking about I-CTS10228 it came first to the Balkans in some period after 300 BC, it is possible in 0-100 AD or +/-. Here debate was whose is this marker and who brought it to the Balkans. And I gave any evidence, just what you are talking about territory and fathers, that it is probably German or Thracian or mixed German/Thracian marker and entered to the Balkans first with Thracians and Germans. Your question about importance is right, reputation. I don't value why and how much is important. For science it is important to clarify movement I2a (all branches, old and younger) in Europe since Paleolithic till today.

MOESAN
22-06-17, 12:50
Language and genetics are diferent issues.

The Romanian Othodox Church used Old Church Slavonic for liturgical purposes up to the 17th Century.

After the Slavic migrations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_migrations), Slavonic became the liturgical language of the Eastern Orthodox Church in present-day Romania, under the influence of the South Slavic feudal states.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic_in_Romania

interesting point - but before to answer it needs to determine the parts of lexicon concerned by slavic words; I 'll try to find something out; that said the Slavs input is Romania is surely light enough spite evident for me, and not level in the country -

gyms
22-06-17, 18:38
Garrick,the Thracian-German hypothesis is very exciting,but there is no evidence for that.Is there any ancient Thracian/German I2a-"Din" in the world wide database?

Angela
22-06-17, 21:14
@Garrick,

If I2a-Din was Germanic and Gothic, why not equal quantities of R1b-U106 and I1 in the Balkans?

Kingslav
22-06-17, 21:57
@Garrick,

If I2a-Din was Germanic and Gothic, why not equal quantities of R1b-U106 and I1 in the Balkans?
East Germanic tribes carry I2 and also R1A acquired from neighbours "Proto-Slavs" who WERE forming at times of expansion of I2A 1900 years ago.

Kingslav
22-06-17, 22:02
This is evident in modern populations Germans, Swedes for example who have 10-20% Eastern European R1A affinities in there modern genome. Germans not purely R1B either...

Balkanite
22-06-17, 22:11
East Germanic tribes carry I2 and also R1A acquired from neighbours "Proto-Slavs" who WERE forming at times of expansion of I2A 1900 years ago.

So according to you some proto-slavs bearing hg I2a jumped on the "goth train" to the balkans, just to be slavicized a couple of hundreds years later by actual slavs bearing the same haplogroups as themselves?
How convenient..

Kingslav
22-06-17, 22:29
I already said I2a is Thracians, Sarmatians, Goths. These groups lived in close proximity so the elites in these tribes definitely carried Dinaric marker I2A. No imaginary train but on horseback as its well documented Thracian arrived from northeast with there Gold plated chariots etc, which is striking resemblance with Sarmatians known for their luxorious Golds who were expanding at this time from east, hmmmmmm??? Next problem, you can fool other people i dont really care with terms Thracians, Dacians, Getae, etc but its documented these were for same people given by different historian. You putting all your chips right now on these names but if i prove they were same people your theory no foundation. You didnt travel timemachine 2000 years to document these tribe names.

Trojet
22-06-17, 22:46
Garrick the Serb (and the likes) is purposely spamming this thread with disinformation to discredit the likeliest theory, which is the Slavic. Perfect example of this disinformation can be seen here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29041-I2a-Din-came-to-the-Balkans-and-Dinaric-Alps-with-the-Thracians-Dacians-Illyrians/page22?p=512387&viewfull=1#post512387).
I don't get it. As if there is something wrong with being Slav.

Kingslav
22-06-17, 22:50
Users like Garrick the Serb are purposely spamming this thread with disinformation to discredit the likeliest theory, which is the Slavic. Perfect example of this disinformation can be seen here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29041-I2a-Din-came-to-the-Balkans-and-Dinaric-Alps-with-the-Thracians-Dacians-Illyrians/page22?p=512387&viewfull=1#post512387).
I don't get. As if there is something wrong with being Slav.
Slav is best, stop changing topic rapidly 10 mins or less everytime I disprove your fantasy dreams and modern illusions.

Balkanite
22-06-17, 22:52
You didnt travel timemachine 2000 years to document these tribe names.

If we go by that logic, why bother with history at all?
Then we can call all of the ancient writers liars.
There are no such thing as absolute facts when we are talking history.

By your logic i should be able to tell you that Abraham Lincoln never existed. And that all portaits of him are made up, and his descendants are paid liars.
And you do not have a time machine to go back and prove me wrong.

You see?
That logic does not go hand in hand with studying the past.

That kind of logic fits better for a life of crime.
Innocent till proven guilty, right?

Trojet
22-06-17, 23:08
Slav is best, stop changing topic rapidly 10 mins or less everytime I disprove your fantasy dreams and modern illusions.

LMAO, you have "disproved" nothing I said. And do not quote me again with fairy tales, as it seems you're more interested in engaging in fairy tales, rather than having an intelligent conversation.

I guess you're a Serb too, not happy with your I2a-Slav pretending to be Polak. I very much doubt a true Polak carrying I-CTS10228 aka I2a-Slav (which is thousands of them) would claim that his paternal ancestor came from the Balkans "Thracian".

Garrick
22-06-17, 23:55
+1 from me
I agree
Aimos peninsula is unigue

As always hit right in to center, reputation.

It is truth, unfortunately. There are still people everywhere in the Balkans who don't know what is cooperation and collaboration. Today, without cooperation has no progress. And those who cheat and lie don't have an advantage, on the contrary, they are losers. Everyone can read game theory.

There is a old Serbian fair tale:

In Trojan's are goats ears

It is story since Roman period on the Balkans, about truth and lie.

It is difficult for me to translate, and Serbian is archaic, but there is a lesson of story that truth is revealed no matter what kinds of actions Trojan did to prevent it.

The truth is always revealed, earlier or later, there is no secret under the heavens.

Fatherland
23-06-17, 00:37
As always hit right in to center, reputation.


It is truth, unfortunately. There are still people everywhere in the Balkans who don't know what is cooperation and collaboration. Today, without cooperation has no progress. And those who cheat and lie don't have an advantage, on the contrary, they are losers. Everyone can read game theory.

There is a old Serbian fair tale:

In Trojan's are goats ears

It is story since Roman period on the Balkans, about truth and lie.

It is difficult for me to translate, and Serbian is archaic, but there is a lesson of story that truth is revealed no matter what kinds of actions Trojan did to prevent it.

The truth is always revealed, earlier or later, there is no secret under the heavens.
The Father of the Serbian Nation Dobrica Cosic considers the ability to lie and lying to be the highest morale virtue of the Serbian people and the foundation of Serbian pride.

Here is a direct quote by Dobrica Cosic: ''Lying is the highest virtue of the Serbian people.''

Dobrica Cosic continues and says: ''We lie to deceive ourselves, to console others, we lie for mercy, we lie to fight fear, to encourage ourselves, to hide our and somebody else's misery. Lying is a trait of our patriotism and the proof of our innate intelligence. We lie creatively, imaginatively and inventively.''

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So basically please, spare us the lies and deceit.

Kingslav
23-06-17, 02:47
I am here debating facts that I sourced for you to possibly look into, you can deny them as facts you have that right we live in a democracy now, but I won't lower myself to your religious/ race wars you are on here to lead. This my Great Great Uncle, Walery Jan Slawek. 1879-1939. 19th Prime Minister of Poland. Google him maybe you will learn something.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walery_Sławek

Fatherland
23-06-17, 03:44
@Garrick,

If I2a-Din was Germanic and Gothic, why not equal quantities of R1b-U106 and I1 in the Balkans?
Spot on, right there.


Goths aka Goter/Gutes hailed from the isle of Gotland east of Sweden to give people a clearer idea of their haplogroups. If we go way further back in time, they were originally from the mainland of middle-southern part of Sweden.

According to the history of Gotland, there was a great migration out of the island back in the time when the Goths as we know started appearing.

They were split into two groups: Västergötar and Östergötar and they both did indeed mainly carry R1b-U106 and I1.

Gutnish is still spoken in Gotland and Fårö.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutnish

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Gutnish

MOESAN
23-06-17, 09:59
[QUOTE=MOESAN;511861]

I see my post has been "tackled"! Concerning meetings between two pops, the first result is often (rather than bilinguism), after some time and generations in patrilocal societies, the winner language is the language of (males) elite as a rule (the exceptions exist, but they need very specific context); nurses language rarely becomes the winner -

it' becomes a bit off topic -just a correction: I swallowed the word 'diglossy' (rather than 'bilinguism')

Balkanite
23-06-17, 10:06
The Father of the Serbian Nation Dobrica Cosic considers the ability to lie and lying to be the highest morale virtue of the Serbian people and the foundation of Serbian pride.

Here is a direct quote by Dobrica Cosic: ''Lying is the highest virtue of the Serbian people.''

Dobrica Cosic continues and says: ''We lie to deceive ourselves, to console others, we lie for mercy, we lie to fight fear, to encourage ourselves, to hide our and somebody else's misery. Lying is a trait of our patriotism and the proof of our innate intelligence. We lie creatively, imaginatively and inventively.''

------------------------------------

So basically please, spare us the lies and deceit.
These quotes sum up pretty well what Garrick, Kingslav and Co. are trying to do here.

Flavius
23-06-17, 16:03
Perhaps silly questions and the reply may be somewhere above within this convoluted thread but it's difficult to follow...

Are there any pre-500 AD yDNA samples from Balkans?
Has any of them been found to be I2a-Din?

Balkanite
23-06-17, 16:31
Perhaps silly questions and the reply may be somewhere above within this convoluted thread but it's difficult to follow...

Are there any pre-500 AD yDNA samples from Balkans?
Has any of them been found to be I2a-Din?

I understand why you think the thread is diffucult to follow. I really do. 60-70% of the thread is just spam.

But to answer the question on pre-500 Dna from the region, i have a map with some haplogroups found in the relevant area. I2a-"din"/slav is nowhere to be seen, neither on on this map nor in any ancient DNA sample found in the balkans to date.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170623/1eb8d5f483c941feb61df3844c0840e7.jpg

Garrick
23-06-17, 22:54
The Father of the Serbian Nation Dobrica Cosic considers the ability to lie and lying to be the highest morale virtue of the Serbian people and the foundation of Serbian pride.

Here is a direct quote by Dobrica Cosic: ''Lying is the highest virtue of the Serbian people.''

Dobrica Cosic continues and says: ''We lie to deceive ourselves, to console others, we lie for mercy, we lie to fight fear, to encourage ourselves, to hide our and somebody else's misery. Lying is a trait of our patriotism and the proof of our innate intelligence. We lie creatively, imaginatively and inventively.''

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So basically please, spare us the lies and deceit.

It is not offense, do you really believe in that crap.

There are people who still believe earth is flat:

http://www.news.com.au/technology/science/space/the-flat-earth-theory-has-seen-a-resurgence-with-people-trying-to-prove-our-planet-is-not-a-sphere/news-story/0bd1226fbe2e2bc819ec12733591e8c9

Garrick
23-06-17, 23:00
Garrick,the Thracian-German hypothesis is very exciting,but there is no evidence for that.Is there any ancient Thracian/German I2a-"Din" in the world wide database?

Yes you're right it is very exciting.

I'm not I-CTS10228 carrier and I am not personally interested but story about this haplogroup is very exciting.

I2 and generally I haplogroup is for respect, the first Homo sapiens in Europe in period 45,000 to 28,000 years ago were I carriers (plus CT, C1a, C1b and F).

I2 carriers were in Europe in Paleolithic 26500-19000 ybp, I2 and I1 carriers are practically only true Europeans and autochthonous.

I-P37 is Forefather of I-CTS10228.

This haplogroup is found in Balkans, Serbia, in Lepen whirl, location Padina, age estimation is 8753-8351 BC.

It is really exciting that I-CTS10228 descendants of I-P37 return to the Balkans with Germans and Thracians.

Balkanite
24-06-17, 01:29
It is really exciting that I-CTS10228 descendants of I-P37 return to the Balkans with Germans and Thracians.
I2a-slav/din came to the balkans with slavs.
As this is one of the strongest slavic markers.

Both slavs and non-slavs are agreeing on this.
You probably know that people do not believe you, but it rather seems like you are trying to convince yourself.

You have probably made some spartacus tattoo or germanic Rune tattoos in 2013, when everyone still believed these crackpot german/thracian theories. And now there seems to be no way back for you.

You should be happy with your origins like all the other slavs are. I only see Serbs trying to push this through for some reason. Why cant you just be proud of what you are? Like the polaks and the russians are.

Garrick
24-06-17, 01:53
I2a-slav/din came to the balkans with slavs.
As this is one of the strongest slavic markers.

Both slavs and non-slavs are agreeing on this.
You probably know that people do not believe you, but it rather seems like you are trying to convince yourself.

You have probably made some spartacus tattoo or germanic Rune tattoos in 2013, when everyone still believed these crackpot german/thracian theories. And now there seems to be no way back for you.

You should be happy with your origins like all the other slavs are. I only see Serbs trying to push this through for some reason. Why cant you just be proud of what you are? Like the polaks and the russians are.

Completely wrong.

Kingslav
24-06-17, 02:07
I2a-slav/din came to the balkans with slavs.
As this is one of the strongest slavic markers.

Both slavs and non-slavs are agreeing on this.
You probably know that people do not believe you, but it rather seems like you are trying to convince yourself.

You have probably made some spartacus tattoo or germanic Rune tattoos in 2013, when everyone still believed these crackpot german/thracian theories. And now there seems to be no way back for you.

You should be happy with your origins like all the other slavs are. I only see Serbs trying to push this through for some reason. Why cant you just be proud of what you are? Like the polaks and the russians are.

If this was valid I would show 100% Northeast Europe on Gedmatch calculator going back Thousands year, but reality I am showing many regions from ancient ancestors assimilating other tribes.

Kingslav
24-06-17, 02:41
Here my MDLP K16 Gedmatch-

Population
Amerindian 0.94
Ancestor -
Steppe 22.43
Indian 0.07
Arctic -
Australian -
Caucasian 19.36
EastAfrican 0.08
NorthEastEuropean 31.54
NearEast -
Neolithic 24.72
NorthAfrican -
Oceanic 0.60
Siberian 0.22
SouthEastAsian -
Subsaharian -

Not 100% Northeast Europe, just small 31.5% actually and look what else I found 24.7% Neolithic for a "Proto Slav"??? How this happen? I am supposed to be from far far north with Eskimos almost according y'all. Now to compare my 24.7% Neolithic with Albanian average for Neolithic is 27.3%. We not that different you making it seem lol.

Kingslav
24-06-17, 03:02
I really can't make this stuff up you can check my gedmatch oracles lol. Slav DNA

Albanian + Czech + Czech + Estonian @ 1.395128

Bergin
24-06-17, 05:28
Small comment, slightly off-topic, but somehow related.

2000 years ago, Virgil wrote a poem, The Aeneid.
It fantasized a glorious ancestry for Romans, with the defeated Trojans moving to Italy under Aeneas who is blessed by fate to found Rome.

So some of you guys (without distinction) are in good company, just that the idea is not exactly Virgin.



Nevertheless, if someone is considering to write a masterpiece about glorious Thraco-Illyrian roots, then please do.
I might even have a title for that poem:
ASTEROPAIOS


If you are not planning to write a masterpiece, then do realize that vulgarities on the topic have already made at least two victims: Apsurdistan and Nick.
Don't you think is time to let go for some time?

Sile
24-06-17, 09:08
Small comment, slightly off-topic, but somehow related.

2000 years ago, Virgil wrote a poem, The Aeneid.
It fantasized a glorious ancestry for Romans, with the defeated Trojans moving to Italy under Aeneas who is blessed by fate to found Rome.

So some of you guys (without distinction) are in good company, just that the idea is not exactly Virgin.



Nevertheless, if someone is considering to write a masterpiece about glorious Thraco-Illyrian roots, then please do.
I might even have a title for that poem:
ASTEROPAIOS


If you are not planning to write a masterpiece, then do realize that vulgarities on the topic have already made at least two victims: Apsurdistan and Nick.
Don't you think is time to let go for some time?

Aeneas was not a trojan...he married into trojan society............yes he brought trojans with him , as well as all the other dozen allies the trojans had

Balkanite
24-06-17, 09:41
Sile, Garrick, Bergin and Kingslav. Stop posting off topic bullshit.

I2a-slav/din came to the balkans with slavs.
As this is one of the strongest slavic markers.
No ancient I2a-slav has been found in the balkans.

Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Balkanite
24-06-17, 09:48
I can go on forever. Everytime you 4 serbian spies post spam and propaganda, i will just repeat myself again.

I2a-slav/din came to the balkans with slavs.
As this is one of the strongest slavic markers.
No ancient I2a-slav/din has been found the balkans.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Kingslav
24-06-17, 10:00
According to the "Geography" by Ptolemy, Sarmatia was considered to be territory of Poland, Lithuania, and Tartary and consisted of Asian and European parts divided by the Don River. As a geographical term, Sarmatia was always indistinct, but very stable. The presumed ancestors of the szlachta, the Sarmatians, were a confederacy of predominantly Iranian tribes living north of the Black Sea. In the 5th century BC Herodotus wrote that these tribes were descendants of the Scythians and Amazons. The Sarmatians were infiltrated by the Goths and others in the 2nd century AD, and may have had some strong and direct links to Poland. The legend of Polish descent from Sarmatians stuck and grew until most of those within the Commonwealth, and many abroad, believed that many Polish nobles were descendants of the Sarmatians (Sauromates). Another tradition came to surmise that the Sarmatians themselves were descended from Japheth, son of Noah. Sarmatism- Wikipedia

Balkanite
24-06-17, 10:18
You are going off topic.

Everytime you post spam and propaganda, i will just repeat myself again.

I2a-slav/din came to the balkans with slavs.
As this is one of the strongest slavic markers.
No ancient I2a-slav/din has been found the balkans.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Kingslav
24-06-17, 10:33
You are going off topic. Everytime you post spam and propaganda, i will just repeat myself again. I2a-slav/din came to the balkans with slavs. As this is one of the strongest slavic markers. No ancient I2a-slav/din has been found the balkans. Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698) The origins of the Thracians remain obscure, in the absence of written historical records. Evidence of proto-Thracians in the prehistoric period depends on artifacts of material culture. Leo Klejn identifies proto-Thracians with the multi-cordoned ware culture that was pushed away from Ukraine by the advancing timber grave culture or Srubna . It is generally proposed that a proto-Thracian people developed from a mixture of indigenous peoples and Indo-Europeans from the time of Proto-Indo-European expansion in the Early Bronze Age when the latter, around 1500 BC, mixed with indigenous peoples. We speak of proto-Thracians from which during the Iron Age (about 1000 BC) Dacians and Thracians begin developing. - Thracians Wikipedia Thracians inhabited parts of the ancient provinces of Thrace, Moesia, Macedonia, Dacia, Scythia Minor, Sarmatia, Bithynia, Mysia, Pannonia, and other regions of the Balkans and Anatolia. This area extended over most of the Balkans region, and the Getae north of the Danube as far as beyond the Bug and including Panonia in the west. There were about 200 Thracian tribes. Thracians- Wikipedia

Balkanite
24-06-17, 10:45
You are going off topic.
You can start posting thracian history here if we one day find out they were in fact slavs.

Everytime you post spam and propaganda, i will just repeat myself again.

I2a-slav/din came to the balkans with slavs.
As this is one of the strongest slavic markers.
No ancient I2a-slav/din has been found the balkans.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Kingslav
24-06-17, 10:58
You are going off topic.
You can start posting thracian history here if we one day find out they were in fact slavs.

Everytime you post spam and propaganda, i will just repeat myself again.

I2a-slav/din came to the balkans with slavs.
As this is one of the strongest slavic markers.
No ancient I2a-slav/din has been found the balkans.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Thracians inhabited parts of the ancient provinces of Thrace, Moesia, Macedonia, Dacia, Scythia Minor, Sarmatia, Bithynia, Mysia, Pannonia, and other regions of the Balkans and Anatolia. This area extended over most of the Balkans region, and the Getae north of the Danube as far as beyond the Bug and including Panonia in the west. There were about 200 Thracian tribes. Thracians- Wikipedia

Balkanite, just quick question, how do you explain Thracians living in Slavic lands ^ as quoted in upper statement but they themselves Thracians are not Slavs? But they living in the land...

Balkanite
24-06-17, 11:09
@kingslav
so you theory that I2a-slav is based on the assumption that thracians were slavs?

Kingslav
24-06-17, 11:21
@kingslav
so you theory that I2a-slav is based on the assumption that thracians were slavs?

I said already my theory since second post, I2A-Din people are descendants of Thracians.

" I am not Illyrian descendant IMO, Illyrian is south Balkans. Specifically Albanians. I believe Thracians come from near Black Sea coast ( Romania, Moldova, Ukraine ) where you can find I2A." - Kingslav Page 16

Sile
24-06-17, 12:42
I can go on forever. Everytime you 4 serbian spies post spam and propaganda, i will just repeat myself again.

I2a-slav/din came to the balkans with slavs.
As this is one of the strongest slavic markers.
No ancient I2a-slav/din has been found the balkans.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

listen turk, no markers belong to any race........

Balkanite
24-06-17, 13:00
listen turk, no markers belong to any race........
Hehehe, a balkanite with haplogroup T is calling a J2b2-l283 a turk. How funny. Check ancient Dna please.

Anyways, maybe markers dont belong to specific groups anymore, but they did originate in some groups for sure.
and it seems I2a-slav originated the same place as Proto-slavs originated, as all slavic countries bear this haplogroup.
If the R1a Porto-slavs enslaved a sarmatian or thracian is not for me to say. But it sure seems that I2a-din spoke slavic since the proto-slavs were forming

Trojet
24-06-17, 14:33
Sile is wrong here again, and his comment calling someone from the Balkans a "Turk" is wrong too. No one is talking about all of "I2a", or markers that are thousands of years older than present ethnicities existed.

In this case the specific marker I-CTS10228 aka I2a-Slav "Din", has a TMRCA of only 2300 ybp. Originally he could've only lived at one culture, most likely Slavic or Proto-Slavic given the phylogeographic distribution and other factors. So yes, he lived at the time when the Slavs or Proto-Slavs existed, and his descendants expanded soon after throughout what we now know as the Slavic world, and obviously as a Slavic speaking marker, and therefore it can be called I2a-Slav.

Similarly, we're finding younger mutations/markers who are almost entirely present among Albanian speaking populations. So such markers can be called Albanian.

Angela
24-06-17, 14:43
listen turk, no markers belong to any race........

You know better than this. One more insult and you get another infraction, which means you're banned again. Control yourself.

Angela
24-06-17, 14:57
Gentlemen, somebody had to bring the Slavic languages to the Balkans. There is not enough R1a, imo, especially in certain countries. So, it seems that I2a-Din was probably involved. Whether it was in the area of Poland or Ukraine originally or incorporated in central Europe during the Slavic migrations, I don't know, but I doubt it was in the western Balkans.

There is also the evidence of IBD allele sharing, which documents the Slavic migrations south.

See: Ralph and Coop
http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555

Bergin
24-06-17, 15:46
I can go on forever. Everytime you 4 serbian spies post spam and propaganda, i will just repeat myself again.

I2a-slav/din came to the balkans with slavs.
As this is one of the strongest slavic markers.
No ancient I2a-slav/din has been found the balkans.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

I suppose there is a first time for everything, even for being called a serbian spy.
Balkanite, if you think that being J2b2 makes you Albanian, sorry to say but you are delusional.

What makes you Albanian are the games you play as a kid:
topa gropash, topa rrasash, doce kanoce, rraqi rraqi kikiko, rrjeta dhe peshku, topadjegesi, kala dibrance.




Regarding propaganda, you created a nickname for pure purpose of stereotyping: I2a-slav.
Your logic might be correct, but this does not give you any right to modify scientific terminology with propagandist connotations.

The term I2a-slav is unknown to the world so all your posts that include such term are by definition spam.

I would like to celebrate with someone the findings of the J2b2 and of the pre-ev13, instead of saddening myself about this hole in the water.
So please come back to your senses.
I still do thank you a lot for your videos.

Balkanite
24-06-17, 16:02
I suppose there is a first time for everything, even for being called a serbian spy.
Balkanite, if you think that being J2b2 makes you Albanian, sorry to say but you are delusional.

What makes you Albanian are the games you play as a kid:
topa gropash, topa rrasash, doce kanoce, rraqi rraqi kikiko, rrjeta dhe peshku, topadjegesi, kala dibrance.




Regarding propaganda, you created a nickname for pure purpose of stereotyping: I2a-slav.
Your logic might be correct, but this does not give you any right to modify scientific terminology with propagandist connotations.

The term I2a-slav is unknown to the world so all your posts that include such term are by definition spam.

I would like to celebrate with someone the findings of the J2b2 and of the pre-ev13, instead of saddening myself about this hole in the water.
So please come back to your senses.
I still do thank you a lot for your videos.
Actually i did not mean to add your name too. Now i remember you from other threads, and i dont think you are a serbian spy(not that it matters what i think people are)

And regarding the fact that i call that marker I2a-slav, is just as wrong/right as calling it I2a-din. And i would even argue that I2a-din is a more misleading term than I2a-slav, as it is not a specific dinaric marker, but rather a slavic one which is found throughout the slavic world and everywhere slavs have had influence.
I2a-din is not Scientific terminology. Or at least I2a-slav is just as scientific.

MOESAN
24-06-17, 16:17
Naive and pacific try
Without going too deeply in the thread but just to try to make things clear :

- Y-I is in Europe since Paleolithic
- Y2 is in Europe since Azilean (~14000/13000 BC Bichon)
- Y-I2 is very ancient in all over Europe
- Late Mesolithic/Early Neolithic shows dominance of Y-I2a1 and Y-I2a2 (+ Y-R1b) among Danubian Balkans HG’s, and in Iberia (but here I2a2 seems increasing about Eneolithic in no more Hg’s pops but among megalithers)
- at these stages there was not question of Slavs and maybe not question of Y-I2-Din at all
- Y-I2-Din seems appearing in the supposed places of formation of the future Slavic pops complex


we know uniparental haplo’s are tied to autosomes only for a time, and that sexually unbalanced crossings between pops can easily unclench the former statistical links ; so there is not something like a « slavic haplo » by itself ; but we can try to find if some subclade of an haplo have been typical and/or have found birth among a pop or its proto-pop, no sin here, no honour or life engaged for ever ;
my thoughts (for what they are worth of) :
at LN a lot of pops of East-Central and South-East-Central Europe was shift towards HG’s Y-haplo’s (Y-I2 and Y-R1b) and Farmers mt-haplo’s ; among them, one of the northeasternmost ones of the Carpathians mountains knew a bottleneck eliminating the most of Y-R1b and Y-I2a2, leaving place to only Y-I2a1b – this last pop profited of the Tripolye « aura » (increase in demogtaphy and founder effect) and around (pre-)Bronze Age in the eastern slopes took contact with Y-R1a tribes of the lowlands and western steppes ; I want not go into detailed subclades here ; were these Y-R1a tribes I-Ean or I-Eanized, it’s not the thread to discuss this) ; these dominantly Y-R1a tribes further developped the Baltic-slavic group of langages but I think the individualisation of Slavic took place by the influence of the Carpathian Eneolithic groups (whose Y-I2a1 had produced the Y-I2a-Din) : influence based upon crossings between the 2 firstly distinct pops -


So a great enough number of Y-I2a-Din bearers took part in the Slavic genesis what doesn’t signify that the whole Y-I2a-Din bearers was implicated : I think Y-R1a stayed by far the most important element, and some Tripolye male lineages (Y-G2a + some Y-E1b?) surely were taken into the process – All the way I’m sure Slavic colonization of the Balkans imported Y-I2a-Din (« Slavics » + later incorporated elements from Carpathians) but I cannot be sure other pops rich for Y-I2a-Din (but poor for Y-R1a or lacking it) did not the same travel before the Slavs, under another label (I-E or not) … to disentangle this question we need more and well distributed ancient Y-DNA.
Whatever the input Iranic tribes (Scythians, Sarmatians) could have had linguistically too, they are not responsible I think for the Y-I2a-Din, or only by displacing pops; Thracians and Illyrians are another story but I lack knowledge about their genesis and the reality of their « ethnic » territory, and I think I’m not alone to be ignorant on this very point -



Concerning auDNA and Slavs, Slavs were not « pure » Northerners (even Balts are not), and their dominant male Y-R1a lineages were balanced by dense enough female mt-DNA of diverse origins, as well from Balkans Farmers (by origin) as from Caucasus CHG (by origin too) whatever the dates of entry of these elements -

Balkanite
24-06-17, 16:19
And besides, i have written tens of times now that an albanian bearing I2a-slav/din is just as albanian as a j2b2, v13 or r1b.
I am sure that I have some I2a-slav/din somewhere in my family if i test others than my direct paternal line. But at least i admit that i may have had a minimal slav input sometime in the last 1500 years.

MOESAN
24-06-17, 17:06
we know uniparental haplo’s are tied to autosomes only for a time, and that sexually unbalanced crossings between pops can easily unclench the former statistical links ; so there is not something like a « slavic haplo » by itself

The age: I made a clown of myself! My statement is true but the right reasoning is: uniparental haplo's are not tied to language by nature, even if sometimes they can be linked to it more than autosomals are in the case of male elite transmition... Sorry -
ConcerningY-R1a and India, I red somewhere (I'll try to find the source) that the first lineages Y-R1a1-L657 "LPKSTR" post L342-2(post-Z93) found there would be appeared around 3300/3000 BC through the Bolan Pass (Balutchistan) as "confirmed by archeology, toponymy, numismatic, linguistic, iconography, litteracy..."; linked to "wheeled transport, agriculture, metallurgy; origin: Transcaucasia ("Kura-Araxes migration" according to the theory): horizon Tureng Tepe, Tepe Hissar, Altyn Depe, Mundigask, Shatr-i-Sokhta, Mehrgarh, burnish greyware..."
This very haplo R1a would be found among Goud Saraswat Brahmins (in Lothi): their tradition speaks of a Sarasvati tribe coming from the river Sarasvati or Haraxvati of the Rig-Veda, supposedly non I-E, which the paper places as the Argandab river in Afghanistan and not not the today Ghaggar-Hakra; this tribe would have been there (fghanistan) in the 4000 BC...
to take with some taste of salt, but the basis is that Y-R1a would not be so ancient in India...

Garrick
24-06-17, 17:15
@Garrick,

If I2a-Din was Germanic and Gothic, why not equal quantities of R1b-U106 and I1 in the Balkans?

Angela, yes, your question is right in the center.

And question is very complex, as this mattery is very complex.

I will try to see some facts (of course it is simplistic, for detailed discussion we can write scientific monography), with what we can dispose and what we can talk about.

I2 and generally I haplogroup is exciting for studying, the first Homo sapiens in Europe in period 45,000 to 28,000 years ago were I carriers (plus CT, C1a, C1b and F). I2 carriers were in Europe in Paleolithic 26500-19000 ybp, I2 and I1 carriers are practically only true Europeans and autochthonous. This fact is important to know where the carriers of the I2a haplogroup could move in the old days.

I-P37 is Forefather of I-CTS10228. This haplogroup is found in Balkans, Serbia, in Lepen whirl, location Padina, age estimation is 8753-8351 BC. Very important lineage I-M423 is found in Loschbour, today’s Louxembourg, 6000 years BC.

If we try to notice where the predecessors of I-CTS10228 lived there is Middle, Western and Northern Europe and beyond, reaching Western parts of Eastern Europe. It is nothing to do with areas of Near East, Caucasus, Iran, Russia, Finland etc. This fact is very important. I-CTS10228 is formed 5300 years ago and it was somewhere in Middle/Western/Northern Europe. It is barely survived, and for now we don’t know about reasons for bottleneck, but area where it lived is logical.

After bottleneck I-CTS10228 emerged before 300 BC. Where? It can be somewhere in today’s Poland/Southern Poland, Slovakia, Carpatian area and beyond.

Who lived in this time in this areas?

Slavic people no. It is the important fact. If I-CTS10228 didn’t emerge among Slavs it cannot be Slavic marker.

We can try to get knowledge in which tribe I-CTS10228 could emerge.

We can acquire knowledge from Greek and Roman sources.

We can see in the Ptolomy map which (#580).

In Poland, Slovakia and Western Ukraine lived German tribes, on the south Thracians and on the east, Sarmatians, who were Iranian people.
Where we can search Slavs , they are Venede in the Baltic sea.

We will not search nationalistic German and Polish/Russian sources which every culture in Iron age in aforementioned areas and beyond proclaimed as Germanic or Slavic depending on whether author is German or Slavic origin .Therefore we escape this.

In that time in these areas and beyond were Celtic, Sarmatian, Thracian etc. tribes and some cultures were mixed.

Some scholars some of cultures in the areas of present days Poland, Slovakia, Western Ukraine, Carpatian mounntains in Iron age claim even as Illyrian.

For one of significant culture in that time, which covered big part of Poland and beyond, even reached Moldavia, Pomeranian culture, scientists are sure it is not Slavic, but they are not sure if it is Germanic or no. But tribe Bastarnae is good candidate for this culture, and this is German tribe:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomeranian_culture
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomeranian_culture)
In the picture: Pomeranian culture (oliva green)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/ArcheologicalCulturesOfCentralEuropeAtEarlyPreRoma nIronAge.png

And Zarubintsy culture since 300 BC was not Slavic:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarubintsy_culture
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarubintsy_culture)
If we can enter in historical Roman and Greek sources, we can see that Slavic people were connected to the territory from river Dneister in today’s Central Ukraine to Baltic sea. Maybe Milodrag culture, located in area the rivers Dnieper and Pripyat, north from Kiev, can be Slavic culture, although it is not proven:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milograd_culture

But culture is very far of area where I-CTS10228 emerged.

What is saffer terrain, to see which tribes lived in the aforementioned area approximately in 300 BC.

Several German tribes are candidates:

Lugii: they lived in today’s Silesia, Greater Poland, Mazovia and Little Poland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugii
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugii)
Buri: they lived between Southern Poland, Czech and Northern Carpatian. Not to be confused with Thracian Burs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buri_tribe
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buri_tribe)
Lugii and Buri were mentioned by Ptolomy as one tribe Lugoi Buroi.

Scirii: they lived in Northern Poland and they moved about 200 BC to the south about 230 BC. Later they lived in Carpatian mountains and Black sea. They mixed with Bastarnae.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scirii
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scirii)
Bastarnae: Their homeland is probably Pomerania (today Poland) or Southern Poland and Western Ukraine. They migrated and lived since 200 BC in region of Carpatian mountains, to the river Dnieper in Ukraine and were connected with Thracians on the south and Sarmatians in the East. They came to the present days Moldavia and Romanian Danube Delta. They reached Balkans more times in Thracian land.

If we see time and geography the best candidate for first I-CTS10228 carriers after bottleneck are Bastarnae and maybe Scirii.

Therefore neither Goths not Gepids are candidates, they came later from the north, but it can be possible that these tribes could pick up somewhere this haplogroup in their movements.

Bastarnae mixed with Thracians and Sarmatians. Thracians brought this haplogroup to the Balkans and Sarmatians probably transfered to the Slavs.

There is no doubt that I-CTS10228 will be found in the Balkans ,in period 0-5th century AD (maybe even earlier) what is significantly before arrival of Slavs.

Angela
24-06-17, 20:04
I suppose there is a first time for everything, even for being called a serbian spy.
Balkanite, if you think that being J2b2 makes you Albanian, sorry to say but you are delusional.

What makes you Albanian are the games you play as a kid:
topa gropash, topa rrasash, doce kanoce, rraqi rraqi kikiko, rrjeta dhe peshku, topadjegesi, kala dibrance.




Regarding propaganda, you created a nickname for pure purpose of stereotyping: I2a-slav.
Your logic might be correct, but this does not give you any right to modify scientific terminology with propagandist connotations.

The term I2a-slav is unknown to the world so all your posts that include such term are by definition spam.

I would like to celebrate with someone the findings of the J2b2 and of the pre-ev13, instead of saddening myself about this hole in the water.
So please come back to your senses.
I still do thank you a lot for your videos.

I find myself largely in agreement.

Indeed, yDna doesn't determine autosomal content, much less nationality and culture. I think it's a misunderstanding of genetics to think so.

Angela
24-06-17, 20:09
Naive and pacific try
Without going too deeply in the thread but just to try to make things clear :

- Y-I is in Europe since Paleolithic
- Y2 is in Europe since Azilean (~14000/13000 BC Bichon)
- Y-I2 is very ancient in all over Europe
- Late Mesolithic/Early Neolithic shows dominance of Y-I2a1 and Y-I2a2 (+ Y-R1b) among Danubian Balkans HG’s, and in Iberia (but here I2a2 seems increasing about Eneolithic in no more Hg’s pops but among megalithers)
- at these stages there was not question of Slavs and maybe not question of Y-I2-Din at all
- Y-I2-Din seems appearing in the supposed places of formation of the future Slavic pops complex


we know uniparental haplo’s are tied to autosomes only for a time, and that sexually unbalanced crossings between pops can easily unclench the former statistical links ; so there is not something like a « slavic haplo » by itself ; but we can try to find if some subclade of an haplo have been typical and/or have found birth among a pop or its proto-pop, no sin here, no honour or life engaged for ever ;
my thoughts (for what they are worth of) :
at LN a lot of pops of East-Central and South-East-Central Europe was shift towards HG’s Y-haplo’s (Y-I2 and Y-R1b) and Farmers mt-haplo’s ; among them, one of the northeasternmost ones of the Carpathians mountains knew a bottleneck eliminating the most of Y-R1b and Y-I2a2, leaving place to only Y-I2a1b – this last pop profited of the Tripolye « aura » (increase in demogtaphy and founder effect) and around (pre-)Bronze Age in the eastern slopes took contact with Y-R1a tribes of the lowlands and western steppes ; I want not go into detailed subclades here ; were these Y-R1a tribes I-Ean or I-Eanized, it’s not the thread to discuss this) ; these dominantly Y-R1a tribes further developped the Baltic-slavic group of langages but I think the individualisation of Slavic took place by the influence of the Carpathian Eneolithic groups (whose Y-I2a1 had produced the Y-I2a-Din) : influence based upon crossings between the 2 firstly distinct pops -


So a great enough number of Y-I2a-Din bearers took part in the Slavic genesis what doesn’t signify that the whole Y-I2a-Din bearers was implicated : I think Y-R1a stayed by far the most important element, and some Tripolye male lineages (Y-G2a + some Y-E1b?) surely were taken into the process – All the way I’m sure Slavic colonization of the Balkans imported Y-I2a-Din (« Slavics » + later incorporated elements from Carpathians) but I cannot be sure other pops rich for Y-I2a-Din (but poor for Y-R1a or lacking it) did not the same travel before the Slavs, under another label (I-E or not) … to disentangle this question we need more and well distributed ancient Y-DNA.
Whatever the input Iranic tribes (Scythians, Sarmatians) could have had linguistically too, they are not responsible I think for the Y-I2a-Din, or only by displacing pops; Thracians and Illyrians are another story but I lack knowledge about their genesis and the reality of their « ethnic » territory, and I think I’m not alone to be ignorant on this very point -



Concerning auDNA and Slavs, Slavs were not « pure » Northerners (even Balts are not), and their dominant male Y-R1a lineages were balanced by dense enough female mt-DNA of diverse origins, as well from Balkans Farmers (by origin) as from Caucasus CHG (by origin too) whatever the dates of entry of these elements -

It's a sensible and very nuanced analysis, Moesan, which probably won't satisfy for that very reason either side. :)

MOESAN
24-06-17, 20:29
Thanks Angela, it augments even more the pleasure I'm taking when drinking just now a reasonable taste of scottish whisky (to help my heart condition). My post is a bit off topic but I hope it 'll help to freshen the atmosphere: these topics are so interesting (and I learn things, among some rubbish, and I like it), so, why to spoil this pleasure? Buona sera.

Sile
24-06-17, 20:50
Sile is wrong here again, and his comment calling someone from the Balkans a "Turk" is wrong too. No one is talking about all of "I2a", or markers that are thousands of years older than present ethnicities existed.

In this case the specific marker I-CTS10228 aka I2a-Slav "Din", has a TMRCA of only 2300 ybp. Originally he could've only lived at one culture, most likely Slavic or Proto-Slavic given the phylogeographic distribution and other factors. So yes, he lived at the time when the Slavs or Proto-Slavs existed, and his descendants expanded soon after throughout what we now know as the Slavic world, and obviously as a Slavic speaking marker, and therefore it can be called I2a-Slav.

Similarly, we're finding younger mutations/markers who are almost entirely present among Albanian speaking populations. So such markers can be called Albanian.

He called me a serb , is that not wrong!, am I a serb!

There is no I2a-slav ...it is fabricated.............the slavs do not even know who their "founding" tribe is
Read Russian papers on this and they state we know of no tribe that was slav, all we know is that the slav language first appeared on the modern border of belarus and ukraine

Sile
24-06-17, 20:53
Actually i did not mean to add your name too. Now i remember you from other threads, and i dont think you are a serbian spy(not that it matters what i think people are)

And regarding the fact that i call that marker I2a-slav, is just as wrong/right as calling it I2a-din. And i would even argue that I2a-din is a more misleading term than I2a-slav, as it is not a specific dinaric marker, but rather a slavic one which is found throughout the slavic world and everywhere slavs have had influence.
I2a-din is not Scientific terminology. Or at least I2a-slav is just as scientific.

You mentioned me as a serb, why is that ?

A. Papadimitriou
24-06-17, 21:23
What makes you Albanian are the games you play as a kid:
topa gropash, topa rrasash, doce kanoce, rraqi rraqi kikiko, rrjeta dhe peshku, topadjegesi, kala dibrance.


That's a good idea for a thread. I mean a thread about the games the kids play in each country and similaties/differences.

A. Papadimitriou
24-06-17, 21:34
If we can enter in historical Roman and Greek sources, we can see that Slavic people were connected to the territory from river Dneister in today’s Central Ukraine to Baltic sea. Maybe Milodrag culture, located in area the rivers Dnieper and Pripyat, north from Kiev, can be Slavic culture, although it is not proven:


What are those sources?

Kingslav
24-06-17, 21:37
@Garrick very detailed post, I hope some members decide to read it to very end, after doing more research and reading your post it seems that the Bastarnae were likely Germanic tribe that was mixing with I2A around Black Sea Coast, Goths from Gotland Island were likely mixing with R1A Proto-Slavs much further north of the Black Sea. Possibly North Poland, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia.

Trojet
24-06-17, 21:38
He called me a serb , is that not wrong!, am I a serb!

AFAIK, you're Italian and not Serb.
Balkanite can speak for himself, but I'd guess he doesn't know what you are. And therefore maybe the reason why he called you a Serb was based on your behavior. You always question anything Albanian, whether here at Eupedia or at Anthrogenica, and take the side of the Slavs on such matters. You know very well what I'm talking about! So he had a good reason.

You however, knew where he is from (as can be seen by his username), and therefore had no reason to call him a "Turk" besides insulting.



There is no I2a-slav ...it is fabricated.............the slavs do not even know who their "founding" tribe is
Read Russian papers on this and they state we know of no tribe that was slav, all we know is that the slav language first appeared on the modern border of belarus and ukraine

I2a-"Dinaric" label was created or fabricated as well for I-CTS10228, and some people still use it. With recent data, the evidence has already been laid out multiple times why some of us would like to use I2a-Slav instead of "Dinaric". If you or anyone else don't like this label, you don't have to use it.

Balkanite
24-06-17, 22:10
You mentioned me as a serb, why is that ?

I did not at one single point say anything about your nationality. Friend.

I only said metaphorically that i believe you are a serbian spy. In other words, that means that in my opinion you are practicing methods and pulling an agenda which to an extreme degree resembles those of serbian nationalists who are trying to lay out propagandic knowlegde/science which could legitimize future serbian actions against kosova.

So i have brought up no insults regarding your nationality, as serbian spies can be of any origin. I have even heard of albanians being spies for serbia.

If you are paid or not is not for me to say.
As you can see i spend a lot of energy too, without getting paid for it. But that is because even though i got a bit of irish blood, i am albanian in the heart and albanian all the way inside to the core of my bones. That is why i waste my time on this thread pushing through truth.
What is you excuse for being so fiery in you heart about this thread if you are not a slav and it is not money?

Someone who had no interest on this specific issue would write his opinion 1, 2 or maybe 3 times and afterwards just wait for more ancient dna while laughing at the balkanites tearing each other apart.
But for some reason you seem to be in the middle of the fights everytime. I wonder why that is.

Sile
24-06-17, 22:55
AFAIK, you're Italian and not Serb.
I guess Balkanite doesn't know what you are. And therefore maybe the reason why he called you a Serb was based on your behavior. Because you always question anything Albanian, whether here at Eupedia or at Anthrogenica, and take the side of the Slavs on such matters. You know very well what I'm talking about! So he had a good reason.

You however, seemingly called him a "Turk" because you figured he is Albanian, and used it as an insult for all Albanians.




I2a-"Dinaric" label was created or fabricated as well for I-CTS10228, and some people still use it. With recent data, the evidence has already been laid out multiple times why some of us would like to use I2a-Slav instead of "Dinaric". If you or anyone else don't like this label, you don't have to use it.

I did not figure anything that he was albanian, he has a republic of Ireland flag

also, by questioning anything albanian does not make me anti-albanian ............I question any race regardless on who they are

I mentioned many times to you in regards to albanians in ancient times, like, no Roman records until 150AD on albanians even though the Romans made the major road from durres to constantinople through albanian lands.
- albanians claiming illyrian ancestry when bosnian, croats and slovenians had 90% of Illyrian lands ........can they also claim illyrian.
I know the serbs claim thracian via the triballi tribe

this claiming of illyrian does not help anybody

In regards to I2a-slav .........it is a very poor name, better to use dinaric for the mountains or something like a culture Vucedol
There are I2 in north italy Remendello culture

Balkanite
24-06-17, 23:21
I did not figure anything that he was albanian, he has a republic of Ireland flag
Why is the world would you call someone you thought was from Ireland a turk then? Does not add up.

ps. I have told tons of times now that i have some irish ancestry. But i identify mostt as albanian(arvanite as we are called in my fathers town igoumenitsa).
And i have chosen the irish flag because that is where i am located most of the year. Sometimes im in the balkans, sometimes italy, sometimes Scandinavia.



- albanians claiming illyrian ancestry when bosnian, croats and slovenians had 90% of Illyrian lands........can they also claim illyrian.
Its not 90% of the illyrians lands they occupy. Far from it.
And they came with the slavic migrations, and are not illyrians. 99% of them claim slav ancestry, not illyrian.



this claiming of illyrian does not help anybody
We do not claim illyrian ancestry because it "helps". But because that is how it is.



In regards to I2a-slav .........it is a very poor name, better to use dinaric for the mountains or something like a culture Vucedol
There are I2 in north italy Remendello culture
Why the dinaric mountains? There are more people bearing I2a-slav outside the dinaric mountains than within them. It is gererally found in slavic populations.
And it didnt originate in the dinaric mountains either, as that would not be able to account for the fact that all slavic populations have I2a-slav/din.(history tells us slavs moved from the north into the balkans, not from the balkans into central europe)
So I2a-slav is still more appropriate than I2a-din, as there is no base whatsoever for calling it I2a-din.

Trojet
24-06-17, 23:58
I did not figure anything that he was albanian, he has a republic of Ireland flag

LMAO, I had a good laugh out of this.
You're embarrassing yourself. First of, you very well knew where Balkanite is from as can be seen by his username. Second of all, even if you thought he is from Ireland, why would you call him a "Turk"?
I see no reason besides insulting. You're lucky you didn't get banned.


I mentioned many times to you in regards to albanians in ancient times, like, no Roman records until 150AD on albanians even though the Romans made the major road from durres to constantinople through albanian lands.

And here you are proving true to what I said. Just because Albanians weren't mentioned by the Romans, it doesn't mean they all of a sudden dropped out of the sky. Anyways, I don't want to change the subject, so I'll leave it at that.


- albanians claiming illyrian ancestry when bosnian, croats and slovenians had 90% of Illyrian lands ........can they also claim illyrian.

Regarding Bosnia/Illyria, I'm sure you're aware that one of the major Albanian Y-haplogroups, J2b2a-L283, was recently found in Bronze Age Dalmatia (Bosnia/Croatia), while your I-CTS10228 aka I2a-Slav or it's ancestor I-M423, was nowhere to be found in the area or anywhere in the Balkans for that matter.


In regards to I2a-slav .........it is a very poor name, better to use dinaric for the mountains or something like a culture Vucedol
There are I2 in north italy Remendello culture

And this is another disinformation you're promoting, suggesting as if the I2 in Remedello which was in fact I2-M26 has something to do with I-CTS10228 aka I2a-Slav.
It's like claiming R1a and R1b are the same thing.

Sile
25-06-17, 00:09
LMAO, I had a good laugh out of this.
You're embarrassing yourself. First of, you very well knew where Balkanite is from as can be seen by his username. Second of all, even if you thought he is from Ireland, why would you call him a "Turk"?
I see no reason besides insulting. You're lucky you didn't get banned.



And here you are proving true to what I said. Just because Albanians weren't mentioned by the Romans, it doesn't mean they all of a sudden dropped out of the sky. Besides, I'm sure you're aware that one of the major Albanian HGs J2b2a-L283 was recently found in Bronze Age Dalmatia, while your I-CTS10228 aka I2a-Slav or it's ancestor I-M423 was nowhere to be found in the Balkan area.



And this is another disinformation you're promoting, suggesting as if the I2 in Remedello which was in fact I2-M26 has something to do with I-CTS10228 aka I2a-Slav.
It's like claiming R1a and R1b are the same thing.


Dalmatians are not albanians

you know also skanderberg noted himself as an epirote , not an albanian

I do not care about CTS10228 and it is not albanian as you say it is.

R1a ans R1b come form the same line of K2a
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_(Y-DNA)
I thought you knew about this

Kingslav
25-06-17, 00:18
Thracians inhabited parts of the ancient provinces of Thrace, Moesia, Macedonia, Dacia, Scythia Minor, Sarmatia, Bithynia, Mysia, Pannonia, and other regions of the Balkans and Anatolia. This area extended over most of the Balkans region, and the Getae north of the Danube as far as beyond the Bug and including Panonia in the west. There were about 200 Thracian tribes. Thracians- Wikipedia

Balkanite, just quick question, how do you explain Thracians living in Slavic lands ^ as quoted in upper statement but they themselves Thracians are not Slavs? But they living in the land...

Why can't this question be answered? but has to be ignored EVERYTIME. It is obvious why you ignore, I applaud your fight and cover up tactics not bad effort I'm sure you fooled couple people on here, not me. Let me cut to the chase, I already know that Albanian has duty not admit the THRACIANS they also partly descend from too, are actually rooted from Slavs and even Germans, but my friend in your case this is sad truth. For me it makes no difference. Sorry not sorry.

Sile
25-06-17, 00:19
Why is the world would you call someone you thought was from Ireland a turk then? Does not add up.

ps. I have told tons of times now that i have some irish ancestry. But i identify mostt as albanian(arvanite as we are called in my fathers town igoumenitsa).
And i have chosen the irish flag because that is where i am located most of the year. Sometimes im in the balkans, sometimes italy, sometimes Scandinavia.


Its not 90% of the illyrians lands they occupy. Far from it.
And they came with the slavic migrations, and are not illyrians. 99% of them claim slav ancestry, not illyrian.


We do not claim illyrian ancestry because it "helps". But because that is how it is.


Why the dinaric mountains? There are more people bearing I2a-slav outside the dinaric mountains than within them. It is gererally found in slavic populations.
And it didnt originate in the dinaric mountains either, as that would not be able to account for the fact that all slavic populations have I2a-slav/din.(history tells us slavs moved from the north into the balkans, not from the balkans into central europe)
So I2a-slav is still more appropriate than I2a-din, as there is no base whatsoever for calling it I2a-din.

90% of illyrian lands are outside of Albania, it is impossible to claim you are illyrian, do you think there was no illyrians in illyria when the slavs arrived?
The Hallstatt culture was the predominant Western (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe) and Central European (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe) culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeological_culture) of Early Iron Age Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age_Europe) from the 8th to 6th centuries BC, developing out of the Urnfield culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture) of the 12th century BC (Late Bronze Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_Europe)) and followed in much of its area by the La Tène culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_T%C3%A8ne_culture). It is commonly associated with Proto-Celtic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Celtic) and Celtic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts) populations in the Western Hallstatt zone and with (pre-)Illyrians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians) in the eastern Hallstatt zone.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture#cite_note-1)

Do you see Pre-Illyrians , that is where illyrians began in the east-austrian/slovenian lands


Illyrians lands are from east austria, slovenia, croatia, bosnia, pannonia

what is I2a-slav...........is there I2a-german?, or I2a-british etc etc................its a stupid name ( i2a-slav)

Sile
25-06-17, 00:25
http://www.oocities.org/capitolhill/lobby/7681/origins_3.html



2000 BC - 335 BC



THE BALKAN BRONZE AGE:


HALLSTATT ILLYRIANS

MIGRATE FROM CENTRAL EUROPE

TO THE WESTERN BALKANS

Kingslav
25-06-17, 00:49
http://www.oocities.org/capitolhill/lobby/7681/origins_3.html



2000 BC - 335 BC



THE BALKAN BRONZE AGE:


HALLSTATT ILLYRIANS

MIGRATE FROM CENTRAL EUROPE

TO THE WESTERN BALKANS

Interesting article.

Balkanite
25-06-17, 01:06
@sile, are you making multiple lines of blank spaces between every half a sentence just to fill the thread and make unreadable?

Maybe in the hope that people will just read the title from 2013 and leave it at that?

And by the way, you really do care much about making I2a-slav seem more obscure than it is, dont you?

The mysterious thracian haplogroup which somehow slipped into all places which slavs have settled or raided throughout history.

Move on, there is nothing wrong in being wrong sometimes. You learn, and you move on.

I almost believed this fairytale too a couple if years ago when haplogroups were still at an infant stage.

But come on, why would someone who still believes this in 2017 even be at a forum discussing genetics?
Still believing it clearly indicates to me that you are hardheadedly figting the facts which are right in front of you. Who does that unless the facts compromise their motives?

So imo, you are either pushing these speculations through because you have some personal interest, or because you havent read anything about the history and genetics of the balkans and europe.

And Personally i think you guys are wasting your time. You are clearly not commenting to convince me or Trojet or any other of the active posters on this thread, but to trick new members into believing your fairytales.
But listen why you are wasting your time: Anyone who believes in your propaganda does clearly not know much about history and genes. And therefore their opinion will never matter in the academic world.
So for your own sake, just stop. You are not achieving anything. While you are speculating, the biggest slavic country, russia, is working intensively on pan-slavic theories. And as it seems, the western scholars agree with the russians in this aspect.
No serious academics support your claim, neither slavs nor non-slavs.

None of the people you are trying to trick will be able to do anything against the mighty powers like western scholars and russian scholars.

I on the other hand, i am not trying to trick people like you, because most people with a little knowlegde on history know that your claims are absurd, so they dont need me to teach them.
I do it because it makes me angry to see these things and i cant help myself but react.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Garrick
25-06-17, 01:14
What are those sources?

This is good question, we can see a lot of different free interpretations on the Internet but they are not based on sources, and main sources for that time are Greek and Roman.

Sources are:

Pliny the Elder locates Venedi around Baltic shore.

Ptolomy locates them in Venedic Bay, southern Baltic sea coast.

Tacitus speaks about Venedi too.

What is interesting Herodotus speaks about Neuri, in area between Dniester, Bug and Dnieper rivers, it is possible that they are creators of Milograd culture. Some authors think Nueri are Slavs but it is not proved.

Here we can see Celtic and German tribes since 52 BC and after. Eastern we can see widening Venedi/Slav territories (from Baltic sea to rivers Dniester, Dnieper, and beyond) and reduction of Sarmatian territory (Sarmatians were in expansion since 6 century BC, and in 1 century AD they had 1302764 km2 ).

www.ancient.eu/image/3687/

Yetos
25-06-17, 02:01
90% of illyrian lands are outside of Albania, it is impossible to claim you are illyrian, do you think there was no illyrians in illyria when the slavs arrived?
The Hallstatt culture was the predominant Western (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe) and Central European (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe) culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeological_culture) of Early Iron Age Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age_Europe) from the 8th to 6th centuries BC, developing out of the Urnfield culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture) of the 12th century BC (Late Bronze Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_Europe)) and followed in much of its area by the La Tène culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_T%C3%A8ne_culture). It is commonly associated with Proto-Celtic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Celtic) and Celtic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts) populations in the Western Hallstatt zone and with (pre-)Illyrians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians) in the eastern Hallstatt zone.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture#cite_note-1)

Do you see Pre-Illyrians , that is where illyrians began in the east-austrian/slovenian lands


Illyrians lands are from east austria, slovenia, croatia, bosnia, pannonia

what is I2a-slav...........is there I2a-german?, or I2a-british etc etc................its a stupid name ( i2a-slav)


let me add and mark 2 extra things,

1) From around Noricum modern Austria is considered where the Celts expand to Pannoni Basin (for some oposite) and Illyria,
but Greek Illyria is different than Roman Illyricum,
and many Roman authors point to this,
Illyria is mention as Illyria proprie Dicti in Pliny and others, and Illyricum as a Roman province
So Illyrians moved from Noricum to Illyria proprie Dicti,
but we do not know from Illyria proprie Dicti back to Noricum if the land was Illyrians or others,


2 From Austria around same areas also follow same road centuries later the Alpine Slavs, the term is not mine
we recogn a part of them as Caradanians, the Slovenes,

Caradani also as Kara Dani means Black hills, black mountain, same with word Monte Negro. but until now historically we do not prove that montenegrins were Alpine slavs,
so it can be just a linguistic similarity.

because last days I first the term proto Cetina,
I said many times that Vucedol Vucocar and mainly Vatin are a significant stop and new start for IE

Fatherland
25-06-17, 07:38
90% of illyrian lands are outside of Albania, it is impossible to claim you are illyrian, do you think there was no illyrians in illyria when the slavs arrived?
The Hallstatt culture was the predominant Western (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe) and Central European (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe) culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeological_culture) of Early Iron Age Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age_Europe) from the 8th to 6th centuries BC, developing out of the Urnfield culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture) of the 12th century BC (Late Bronze Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_Europe)) and followed in much of its area by the La Tène culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_T%C3%A8ne_culture). It is commonly associated with Proto-Celtic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Celtic) and Celtic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts) populations in the Western Hallstatt zone and with (pre-)Illyrians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians) in the eastern Hallstatt zone.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture#cite_note-1)

Do you see Pre-Illyrians , that is where illyrians began in the east-austrian/slovenian lands


Illyrians lands are from east austria, slovenia, croatia, bosnia, pannonia

what is I2a-slav...........is there I2a-german?, or I2a-british etc etc................its a stupid name ( i2a-slav)

R1b and J2b2-L283 almost empty in South Slavs. Broken link. You are among the Serbian spies in this thread. Downrated.

Albanians are the main descendants of the Illyrians as proven, no matter the fantasy projections by the Slavs and others in this thread.

Btw, the only Thracians found so far were E-V13.

South Slavs are Slavic. Albanians are Illyrians. The End.

Funny thing, the only neg reps I have got has been from Slavs who can't accept reality and instead they start to copy-paste things from Albanians.

No neg reps will change my Truthbombs.

A. Papadimitriou
25-06-17, 11:16
This is good question, we can see a lot of different free interpretations on the Internet but they are not based on sources, and main sources for that time are Greek and Roman.

Sources are:

Pliny the Elder locates Venedi around Baltic shore.

Ptolomy locates them in Venedic Bay, southern Baltic sea coast.

Tacitus speaks about Venedi too.

What is interesting Herodotus speaks about Neuri, in area between Dniester, Bug and Dnieper rivers, it is possible that they are creators of Milograd culture. Some authors think Nueri are Slavs but it is not proved.

Here we can see Celtic and German tribes since 52 BC and after. Eastern we can see widening Venedi/Slav territories (from Baltic sea to rivers Dniester, Dnieper, and beyond) and reduction of Sarmatian territory (Sarmatians were in expansion since 6 century BC, and in 1 century AD they had 1302764 km2 ).

www.ancient.eu/image/3687/ (http://www.ancient.eu/image/3687/)

It would have been better if you had used excerpts.

Veneti of Tacitus are in 'Germania' (=West of Vistula), although 'their plundering forays take them all over the wooded and mountainous country that rises between the Peucini (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peucini) and the Fenni (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenni)'.
East of Vistula there were 'Sarmatians'.

"Here Suebia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suebia) ends. I do not know whether to class the tribes of the Peucini, Venedi, and Fenni with the Germans or with the Sarmatians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians). The Peucini, however, who are sometimes called Bastarnae, are like Germans in their language, manner of life, and mode of settlement and habitation. Squalor is universal among them and their nobles are indolent. Mixed marriages are giving them something of the repulsive appearance of the Sarmatians... The Veneti have borrowed largely from Sarmatian ways; their plundering forays take them all over the wooded and mountainous country that rises between the Peucini (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peucini) and the Fenni (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenni). Nevertheless, they are to be classed as Germani, for they have settled houses, carry shields and are fond of travelling fast on foot; in all these respects they differ from the Sarmatians, who live in wagons or on horseback."

Garrick
25-06-17, 12:51
It would have been better if you had used excerpts.

Veneti of Tacitus are in 'Germania' (=West of Vistula), although 'their plundering forays take them all over the wooded and mountainous country that rises between the Peucini (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peucini) and the Fenni (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenni)'.
East of Vistula there were 'Sarmatians'.

"Here Suebia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suebia) ends. I do not know whether to class the tribes of the Peucini, Venedi, and Fenni with the Germans or with the Sarmatians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians). The Peucini, however, who are sometimes called Bastarnae, are like Germans in their language, manner of life, and mode of settlement and habitation. Squalor is universal among them and their nobles are indolent. Mixed marriages are giving them something of the repulsive appearance of the Sarmatians... The Veneti have borrowed largely from Sarmatian ways; their plundering forays take them all over the wooded and mountainous country that rises between the Peucini (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peucini) and the Fenni (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenni). Nevertheless, they are to be classed as Germani, for they have settled houses, carry shields and are fond of travelling fast on foot; in all these respects they differ from the Sarmatians, who live in wagons or on horseback."

Papadimitrou
You are right, Venedi/Venedae/Wends in area Vistula/Baltic sea is not defintely accepted who they were, but scientists today don't consider Venedi as Germans, some Roman scholars thought that they are Germans but they did not investigate.

If you want I will send you scientific papers about Venedi in the message.

My intention with Ptolomy map was geographical location, which tribes were in area when I-CTS10228 emerged and expand after bottleneck, and especially Bastarnae (German tribe) is the best candidate.

If Venedi were not Slavs it is even almost much less possible that this haplogroup could appear among the Slavs, because of teritory and time.

Please, we can open new thread about Venedi and discuss if you want, I agree it is very interesting topic, origin of Slavs is obscure, but do you agree, it would be much wide for this thread.

gyms
25-06-17, 13:13
Early Medieval aDNA from Poland

Out of 14, three are analyzed until now (21,42%).
Every is of different subclade.

Kow22 - G2a2b-CTS11324 (7,14% out of 14)
Kow45 - I2a2-L35 (7,14% out of 14)
Kow55 - I1a2a1a1d1a1a1b1 (7,14% out of 14)

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6522-Early-Medieval-aDNA-from-Poland-coming-soon/page51

Garrick
25-06-17, 13:26
They could have as the goths via historians are stated to have absorbed the sarmatians and the bastanae into gothic society.

so , If as I have already stated the bastanae ( not all ) went from south ukraine to moesia/macedonia around ~300BC and then later the bastane that remained where absorbed into gothic society, then we could have found

south-ukraine later became slavic

then we could have found this I-CTS10228 origins

Sile, on another respectable forum on genetic genealogy, the forum members also consider that the Bastarnae tribe was the bearer of the I-CTS10228.

I can give link, discussion is very interesting, but it is probably against rules of forum, it is becoming more accepted on the Internet.

But honor to you for insight.

MOESAN
25-06-17, 15:08
@Gyms

after a look to religious lexicon of Romanian, I found an overwhelming % of words of latin origin; some seem slavic, but often slavic borrowed to greek -
from WIKIpedia
A statistical analysis sorting Romanian words by etymological source carried out by Macrea (1961)[92] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_language#cite_note-93) based on the DLRM[93] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_language#cite_note-94) (49,649 words) showed the following makeup:[94] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_language#cite_note-95)


43% recent Romance loans (mainly French: 38.42%)
20% inherited Latin
11.5% Slavic, including Bulgarian, Serbo-Croatian, Ukrainian, and Russian
4% Turkish
2.40% Modern Greek
2.17% Hungarian
2% German

If the analysis is restricted to a core vocabulary of 2,500 frequent, semantically rich and productive words, then the Latin inheritance comes first, followed by Romance and classical Latin neologisms, whereas the Slavic borrowings come third. The Romanian lexicon is similar by 77% with Italian, 75% with French, 74% with Sardinian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinian_language), 73% with Catalan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_language), 72% with Portuguese and Rheto-Romance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheto-Romance), 71% with Spanish.[95] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_language#cite_note-96)


Romanian according to word origin[96] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_language#cite_note-97)[97] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_language#cite_note-98)









Romance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages)


75.57%


Slavic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_languages)


14.7%


Germanic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languages) (German-based influence, English loanwords)


2.54%


Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Greek)


1.7%


Others


5.49%



some more acute study when excluding slavic loanwords of well delimited origin (so recent: serbo-croat, bulgarian etc...) reduce the slavic superstratum to about 9% and a bit ...
so the origin of slavic words in Romanian is far to be only due to religion influences, IMO.

Sile
25-06-17, 21:10
Papadimitrou
You are right, Venedi/Venedae/Wends in area Vistula/Baltic sea is not defintely accepted who they were, but scientists today don't consider Venedi as Germans, some Roman scholars thought that they are Germans but they did not investigate.

If you want I will send you scientific papers about Venedi in the message.

My intention with Ptolomy map was geographical location, which tribes were in area when I-CTS10228 emerged and expand after bottleneck, and especially Bastarnae (German tribe) is the best candidate.

If Venedi were not Slavs it is even almost much less possible that this haplogroup could appear among the Slavs, because of teritory and time.

Please, we can open new thread about Venedi and discuss if you want, I agree it is very interesting topic, origin of Slavs is obscure, but do you agree, it would be much wide for this thread.

Venedi where west-baltic people belonging to west-balic cairns culture and also belonging to flat-bed grave culture.
they lived on the coast of the baltic sea and nogat river
They where absorbed into gothic society ( as the goths lived next to them on both sides of the vistula river )
Their remnants over time became known as the warmians - an old-prussian baltic tribe

they are an insignificant tribe

Sile
25-06-17, 21:12
R1b and J2b2-L283 almost empty in South Slavs. Broken link. You are among the Serbian spies in this thread. Downrated.

Albanians are the main descendants of the Illyrians as proven, no matter the fantasy projections by the Slavs and others in this thread.

Btw, the only Thracians found so far were E-V13.

South Slavs are Slavic. Albanians are Illyrians. The End.

Funny thing, the only neg reps I have got has been from Slavs who can't accept reality and instead they start to copy-paste things from Albanians.

No neg reps will change my Truthbombs.

90% of illyrian lands are outside of Albania, it is impossible to claim you are illyrian, do you think there was no illyrians in illyria when the slavs arrived?
The Hallstatt culture was the predominant Western (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe) and Central European (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe) culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeological_culture) of Early Iron Age Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age_Europe) from the 8th to 6th centuries BC, developing out of the Urnfield culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture) of the 12th century BC (Late Bronze Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_Europe)) and followed in much of its area by the La Tène culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_T%C3%A8ne_culture). It is commonly associated with Proto-Celtic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Celtic) and Celtic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts) populations in the Western Hallstatt zone and with (pre-)Illyrians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians) in the eastern Hallstatt zone.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture#cite_note-1)

Do you see Pre-Illyrians , that is where illyrians began in the east-austrian/slovenian lands


Illyrians lands are from east austria, slovenia, croatia, bosnia, pannonia

Fatherland
25-06-17, 21:31
90% of illyrian lands are outside of Albania, it is impossible to claim you are illyrian, do you think there was no illyrians in illyria when the slavs arrived?
The Hallstatt culture was the predominant Western (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe) and Central European (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe) culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeological_culture) of Early Iron Age Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age_Europe) from the 8th to 6th centuries BC, developing out of the Urnfield culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture) of the 12th century BC (Late Bronze Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_Europe)) and followed in much of its area by the La Tène culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_T%C3%A8ne_culture). It is commonly associated with Proto-Celtic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Celtic) and Celtic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts) populations in the Western Hallstatt zone and with (pre-)Illyrians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians) in the eastern Hallstatt zone.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture#cite_note-1)

Do you see Pre-Illyrians , that is where illyrians began in the east-austrian/slovenian lands


Illyrians lands are from east austria, slovenia, croatia, bosnia, pannonia

Reported for spamming. I already nullified your arguments in my previous post.

Garrick
25-06-17, 21:57
Venedi where west-baltic people belonging to west-balic cairns culture and also belonging to flat-bed grave culture.
they lived on the coast of the baltic sea and nogat river
They where absorbed into gothic society ( as the goths lived next to them on both sides of the vistula river )
Their remnants over time became known as the warmians - an old-prussian baltic tribe

they are an insignificant tribe

Yes, even it is not important if they were Slavs or Balts or any other population, they weren't in area which is interesting for us and they are not important for the topic. Of course many opinions exist, and some scholars think their territory was greater but since it has not proven they are Slavs we will treat as Venedi and nothing else.

What is important we see Bastarnae were in Thracian (Getae-Dacian) territory and Sarmatian too, and they could transfer I-CTS10228 to them. Amount (one part) I-CTS10229 among Romanian today is probably due to mix Bastarnae with Getae-Dacians. And this haplogroup transferred to the south to Balkans towards Southern Thracian tribes.

Logic says if all I-CTS10228 carriers (plus all R1a carriers) who entered in territory which is present-days Romania were Slavs, today Romania would be Slavic country. It would be very large migrant population. However, I-CTS10228 already existed in territory of present day Romania when Slavs arrived. Certainly Slavs could transfer this haplogroup to people who lived in territory of present days Romania in 6th century too, but for our discussion it is important that this haplogroup existed among Getae-Dacians and Southern Thracian tribes in the Balkans before Slavs.

Sile
25-06-17, 22:56
Reported for spamming. I already nullified your arguments in my previous post.

i do not see where you answered information from scholars ......where is this answer?

just remember the Illyrians and Pre-illyrians where always from the north , beyond the balkans . they moved south after the creation of halstatt culture. this is due to the celts moving against them from further north and west

more info below

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=-yd1huHoXJwC&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=hallstatt+with+celtic+and+illyrian&source=bl&ots=o_-kJEcJs6&sig=ul0MgN1bAtqLThRzJwPdehzKoQ8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi8yovU8dnUAhUBVbwKHcGeCuwQ6AEIPTAH#v=on epage&q=hallstatt%20with%20celtic%20and%20illyrian&f=false


(https://books.google.com.au/books?id=-yd1huHoXJwC&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=hallstatt+with+celtic+and+illyrian&source=bl&ots=o_-kJEcJs6&sig=ul0MgN1bAtqLThRzJwPdehzKoQ8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi8yovU8dnUAhUBVbwKHcGeCuwQ6AEIPTAH#v=on epage&q=hallstatt%20with%20celtic%20and%20illyrian&f=false)https://books.google.com.au/books?id=6E7XAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=hallstatt+with+celtic+and+illyrian&source=bl&ots=wp2QIrQgw0&sig=vy0pM4P0rHWKP-7y_3hej98ys-4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi8yovU8dnUAhUBVbwKHcGeCuwQ6AEIUzAL#v=on epage&q=hallstatt%20with%20celtic%20and%20illyrian&f=false


(https://books.google.com.au/books?id=6E7XAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=hallstatt+with+celtic+and+illyrian&source=bl&ots=wp2QIrQgw0&sig=vy0pM4P0rHWKP-7y_3hej98ys-4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi8yovU8dnUAhUBVbwKHcGeCuwQ6AEIUzAL#v=on epage&q=hallstatt%20with%20celtic%20and%20illyrian&f=false)https://books.google.com.au/books?id=LTbc1GIAwcIC&pg=PA83&lpg=PA83&dq=hallstatt+with+celtic+and+illyrian&source=bl&ots=_v1-UA2rRU&sig=jaHnooGkhDLFJdm5oXFO8GOlKfk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi8yovU8dnUAhUBVbwKHcGeCuwQ6AEIVjAM#v=on epage&q=hallstatt%20with%20celtic%20and%20illyrian&f=false


you need to check out the roman province of Epirus Nova ( which is the roman name for albania ) and see if you can find anything

Sile
25-06-17, 22:57
Yes, even it is not important if they were Slavs or Balts or any other population, they weren't in area which is interesting for us and they are not important for the topic. Of course many opinions exist, and some scholars think their territory was greater but since it has not proven they are Slavs we will treat as Venedi and nothing else.

What is important we see Bastarnae were in Thracian (Getae-Dacian) territory and Sarmatian too, and they could transfer I-CTS10228 to them. Amount (one part) I-CTS10229 among Romanian today is probably due to mix Bastarnae with Getae-Dacians. And this haplogroup transferred to the south to Balkans towards Southern Thracian tribes.

Logic says if all I-CTS10228 carriers (plus all R1a carriers) who entered in territory which is present-days Romania were Slavs, today Romania would be Slavic country. It would be very large migrant population. However, I-CTS10228 already existed in territory of present day Romania when Slavs arrived. Certainly Slavs could transfer this haplogroup to people who lived in territory of present days Romania in 6th century too, but for our discussion it is important that this haplogroup existed among Getae-Dacians and Southern Thracian tribes in the Balkans before Slavs.

Thats the possibility I see as the most logical in regards to that marker.

Garrick
26-06-17, 00:32
@sile, are you making multiple lines of blank spaces between every half a sentence just to fill the thread and make unreadable?

Maybe in the hope that people will just read the title from 2013 and leave it at that?

And by the way, you really do care much about making I2a-slav seem more obscure than it is, dont you?

The mysterious thracian haplogroup which somehow slipped into all places which slavs have settled or raided throughout history.

Move on, there is nothing wrong in being wrong sometimes. You learn, and you move on.

I almost believed this fairytale too a couple if years ago when haplogroups were still at an infant stage.

But come on, why would someone who still believes this in 2017 even be at a forum discussing genetics?
Still believing it clearly indicates to me that you are hardheadedly figting the facts which are right in front of you. Who does that unless the facts compromise their motives?

So imo, you are either pushing these speculations through because you have some personal interest, or because you havent read anything about the history and genetics of the balkans and europe.

And Personally i think you guys are wasting your time. You are clearly not commenting to convince me or Trojet or any other of the active posters on this thread, but to trick new members into believing your fairytales.
But listen why you are wasting your time: Anyone who believes in your propaganda does clearly not know much about history and genes. And therefore their opinion will never matter in the academic world.
So for your own sake, just stop. You are not achieving anything. While you are speculating, the biggest slavic country, russia, is working intensively on pan-slavic theories. And as it seems, the western scholars agree with the russians in this aspect.
No serious academics support your claim, neither slavs nor non-slavs.

None of the people you are trying to trick will be able to do anything against the mighty powers like western scholars and russian scholars.

I on the other hand, i am not trying to trick people like you, because most people with a little knowlegde on history know that your claims are absurd, so they dont need me to teach them.
I do it because it makes me angry to see these things and i cant help myself but react.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

There's always a choice, if you think wasting of time, there is no purpose to participate.

Fustan
26-06-17, 09:09
90% of illyrian lands are outside of Albania, it is impossible to claim you are illyrian, do you think there was no illyrians in illyria when the slavs arrived?
The Hallstatt culture was the predominant Western (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe) and Central European (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe) culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeological_culture) of Early Iron Age Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age_Europe) from the 8th to 6th centuries BC, developing out of the Urnfield culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture) of the 12th century BC (Late Bronze Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_Europe)) and followed in much of its area by the La Tène culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_T%C3%A8ne_culture). It is commonly associated with Proto-Celtic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Celtic) and Celtic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts) populations in the Western Hallstatt zone and with (pre-)Illyrians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians) in the eastern Hallstatt zone.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture#cite_note-1)

Do you see Pre-Illyrians , that is where illyrians began in the east-austrian/slovenian lands


Illyrians lands are from east austria, slovenia, croatia, bosnia, pannonia

If you knew anything about Albanians you would know that many Albanian clans descend from regions in modern Bosnia as well. You might also want to keep in mind that Shkodra was the capital of Illyrians, and that southern Illyricum was considered where the real Illyrians lived, as the north mixed with other groups such as celts.

Also reported for spam as Fatherland had already pointed out his arguments, I just wanted to expand on them.

Sile
26-06-17, 09:24
If you knew anything about Albanians you would know that many Albanian clans descend from regions in modern Bosnia as well. You might also want to keep in mind that Shkodra was the capital of Illyrians, and that southern Illyricum was considered where the real Illyrians lived, as the north mixed with other groups such as celts.

Also reported for spam as Fatherland had already pointed out his arguments, I just wanted to expand on them.

all I know about albanians is that they have no information except made up folktales initiated by nationalists

Are the links I placed all fabricated!

Balkanite
26-06-17, 09:52
all I know about albanians is that they have no information except made up folktales initiated by nationalists

Are the links I placed all fabricated!

Isnt what your saying racism?

Your are kind of saying that a whole people are lying nationalists?

And besides, you are also very obviously decieving people here by saying albanians do not bring any facts.
I can quote at least 50 posts just in this thread alone where Trojet fatherland fustan and myself bring up undisputable facts regarding genetics and/or history.

It surprises me that such discriminating generalizations and deceit is allowed.

doku
26-06-17, 10:07
Nobody spoke Albanian in Bosnian. It's nonsense. If these clans originated from Bosnia, would they have a megalithic burial culture known as STEČCI https://static.klix.ba/media/images/vijesti/160820046.12_mn.jpg?v=1. These monuments do not exist in Albania and anywhere else except in Bosnia Herzegovina,Dalmatia, northern Montenegro and western Serbia. They date from the 12th to the 15th centuries and all the inscriptions are on the ancient archaic Slavic language and the Bosnian cyrillic.

Trojet
26-06-17, 14:10
Nobody spoke Albanian in Bosnian. It's nonsense. If these clans originated from Bosnia, would they have a megalithic burial culture known as STEČCI https://static.klix.ba/media/images/vijesti/160820046.12_mn.jpg?v=1. These monuments do not exist in Albania and anywhere else except in Bosnia Herzegovina,Dalmatia, northern Montenegro and western Serbia. They date from the 12th to the 15th centuries and all the inscriptions are on the ancient archaic Slavic language and the Bosnian cyrillic.

As Fustan pointed out, some Albanian tribes do have a tradition of migrating from the highlands of Herzegovina into North Albania. Some of these tribes are turning up J2b2a-L283. This HG was recently found in Bronze Age Dalmatia. (I2a-Slav was nowhere to be found in these ancient remains, BTW).

Furthermore, Albanian language is mentioned to have been spoken in the area at 1285 AD. Here is a direct quote that even Wikipedia uses:


A Ragusan document dating to 1285 states: "I heard a voice crying in the mountains in the Albanian language" (Audivi unam vocem clamantem in monte in lingua albanesca).

So if we go further back in time and use some logic, when the Slavs settled in the area (where I2a-Slav reaches a very high frequency), it's not far fetched to assume that some indigenous Illyrian tribes would have naturally fled south into present day Albania.

doku
26-06-17, 15:47
Wou, and this is a proof of the thousand-year existence of the Illyrian - Albanian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina, who in the meantime did not leave any material or linguistic proof of their existence. Just to remind you that sout slavish language is very friendly to other languages so one of the most important Sout Slavic words is the word "mater" (mother) Vlach origin.

Fustan
26-06-17, 16:41
Wou, and this is a proof of the thousand-year existence of the Illyrian - Albanian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina, who in the meantime did not leave any material or linguistic proof of their existence. Just to remind you that sout slavish language is very friendly to other languages so one of the most important Sout Slavic words is the word "mater" (mother) Vlach origin.

Why do people here talk about something which they clearly don't know about. You know that Catholics who came from Herzegovina had a tatoo tradition, for example, as did the Herzegovinian Catholics. Similar styles and patterns which have been thought of as pagan in origin.

Trojet
26-06-17, 16:56
Dalmatians are not albanians

Wrong. I never said Dalmatians are Albanians. Although I suspect Albanians have some Dalmatian ancestry. Besides, here is the meaning of the word Dalmatia:
"The name Dalmatia derives from the name of the Dalmatae an Illyrian tribe who inhabited the area. Which is connected with the Illyrian word delme meaning "sheep" (Albanian: delme)." Look here under NAME: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia


you know also skanderberg noted himself as an epirote , not an albanian

Wrong. Skanderbeg never said he wasn't Albanian.


I do not care about CTS10228 and it is not albanian as you say it is.

Wrong again. All this time I've been saying I-CTS10228 is Slav (I2a-Slav), and yet you're claiming I said it was "Albanian".


R1a ans R1b come form the same line of K2a
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_(Y-DNA)
I thought you knew about this

Amazing! Wrong for the fourth time in the same post (it has to be a record, lol). I never said R1a and R1b are not related, and I obviously know they share an ancestor from some 20,000 years ago. What I said was they are not the same thing. All this can be seen here (www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29041-I2a-Din-came-to-the-Balkans-and-Dinaric-Alps-with-the-Thracians-Dacians-Illyrians/page26?p=512768&viewfull=1#post512768).

LMAO, is this what you've been doing for the last 6 years at Eupedia.

Trojet
26-06-17, 17:12
90% of illyrian lands are outside of Albania, it is impossible to claim you are illyrian, do you think there was no illyrians in illyria when the slavs arrived?
The Hallstatt culture was the predominant Western (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe) and Central European (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe) culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeological_culture) of Early Iron Age Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age_Europe) from the 8th to 6th centuries BC, developing out of the Urnfield culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture) of the 12th century BC (Late Bronze Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_Europe)) and followed in much of its area by the La Tène culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_T%C3%A8ne_culture). It is commonly associated with Proto-Celtic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Celtic) and Celtic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts) populations in the Western Hallstatt zone and with (pre-)Illyrians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians) in the eastern Hallstatt zone.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture#cite_note-1)

Do you see Pre-Illyrians , that is where illyrians began in the east-austrian/slovenian lands


Illyrians lands are from east austria, slovenia, croatia, bosnia, pannonia

what is I2a-slav...........is there I2a-german?, or I2a-british etc etc................its a stupid name ( i2a-slav)


90% of illyrian lands are outside of Albania, it is impossible to claim you are illyrian, do you think there was no illyrians in illyria when the slavs arrived?
The Hallstatt culture was the predominant Western (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe) and Central European (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe) culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeological_culture) of Early Iron Age Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age_Europe) from the 8th to 6th centuries BC, developing out of the Urnfield culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture) of the 12th century BC (Late Bronze Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_Europe)) and followed in much of its area by the La Tène culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_T%C3%A8ne_culture). It is commonly associated with Proto-Celtic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Celtic) and Celtic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts) populations in the Western Hallstatt zone and with (pre-)Illyrians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians) in the eastern Hallstatt zone.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture#cite_note-1)

Do you see Pre-Illyrians , that is where illyrians began in the east-austrian/slovenian lands


Illyrians lands are from east austria, slovenia, croatia, bosnia, pannonia

Basically the same exact thing in two different posts, LOL!
Proof that Sile is a Copy-Paste machine, recycling the same anti-Albanian propaganda at Eupedia for the last 6 years.

Angela
26-06-17, 18:20
You're all spamming the same ideas over and over again, but it hits a new low when you copy and paste. That means you, Sile. You're skating on thin ice already.

Bring the temperature down or people are going to start getting infractions for provocative, disruptive posts.

Am I clear?

Yetos
27-06-17, 01:23
recycling the same anti-Albanian propaganda at Eupedia for the last 6 years.

@Trojet
there are also forumers that promote Albanian propaganda for 6 years.

What bothers me, and sometimes I, it also possesed me, in the Forum is

WHO WILL PREVAIL

I had many argue in Forum.
I earn friends and enemies.
Many times I caught my shelf at the 'limits' and sometimes I passed the limits

BUT
Democracy is to hear all options,
Academic thinking is to judge all thoughts, reject accept, and if can not find correct mention all possible well proved theories
the forum has been accused for Anti-Albanian propaganda !!!!!

So personally I am tired of what is friendly-phillo or hostile-anti

so Trojet,
we both can post our thoughts and links,
BUT IF YOU CAN NOT CONVICE ME ( I speak generally not personally)
I HAVE THE RIGHT TO BRING FOR DISCUSS ANOTHER THEORY,

BUT
If I accept your theories, then what am I?
a wise? a Phillo-Albanian
if I reject your theories and write/link the ones I believe
SUDDENLY I AM ANTI-ALBANIAN?

that reminds the fear of speach few decades before,
if you said something about Jews you were accused as Anti-Semitic,
Today if you say something about islam you are accused as a Racist etc,

we are very Dogmatic many of us (I include me also)
to the degree of Despotism if someone express something Different.

Time to relax all,
Democracy demands all opinions to be heard, wrong friendly anti hostile
Academic thinking and scientif prove/laws justify the corrects,
and if can decide on what is correct, or many seems correct, then All opinions that passed the ΖΥΓΟΣ (libra) of pass the libra must Exist,


PS
I used that word many times propaganda, and agenda,
but all where to hoax information, mainly away from clear scientific prove


for six years I read and read the same crap of Kollia,
ELEOS, have mercy, your fingers do not feel pain writting and writting the same

Milan.M
27-06-17, 08:47
[email protected]
You even made an assumption that Bastarnae are "Germans" there is no such proof whatsoever.
Bastareus is name of Thracian ruler/king of present day R.Macedonia 4.B.C most probably a Paeonian/Thracian.

Magna Germania in antiquity does not equal the present day connotation Germans,has no ethnic connotation or linguistic connotation of today.Just like in Illyria were living people speaking different languages,the same way in Magna Germania were living people speaking different languages and not only Germans of today.If you take Strabo clasification of Bastarnae as Germani,or the Veneti as Germani he does that because they were not nomads like the Sarmatians,but traveled on foot so were part of Germani!
Regarding "Gothi/Getae" i gave my opinion and opinion on some scholars who even wrote books about it.

This is Thracian coin and not German.

http://munzeo.com/images/18.Sep.2011/170682073725_2.JPG


Overally we will wait much more to make general conclusion about this haplogroup I2a din.

Dinarid
28-06-17, 23:51
Miroslav, Garrick, Milan and Dinarid, you can down thumb me and anyone else who shows up your illogic until kingdom come. . It's just ultra-nationalistic obfuscation and everyone knows it. Who do you think you're kidding? Everyone else in the amateur community knows that this whole argument is nonsense, and as for the academics, you're not even on their radar.

You keep spamming the same distorted arguments over and over again, and harassing other members, and you're all going to get infractions. Everyone else is tired of being on this merry-go-round.
I'm surprised to have seen my name. Can you explain to me what I've done? I was not involved in this conversation until now. I don't even know what argument I've been making as I haven't even participated in this thread.

blevins13
30-06-17, 09:07
90% of illyrian lands are outside of Albania, it is impossible to claim you are illyrian, do you think there was no illyrians in illyria when the slavs arrived?
The Hallstatt culture was the predominant Western (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe) and Central European (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe) culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeological_culture) of Early Iron Age Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age_Europe) from the 8th to 6th centuries BC, developing out of the Urnfield culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture) of the 12th century BC (Late Bronze Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_Europe)) and followed in much of its area by the La Tène culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_T%C3%A8ne_culture). It is commonly associated with Proto-Celtic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Celtic) and Celtic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts) populations in the Western Hallstatt zone and with (pre-)Illyrians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians) in the eastern Hallstatt zone.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture#cite_note-1)

Do you see Pre-Illyrians , that is where illyrians began in the east-austrian/slovenian lands


Illyrians lands are from east austria, slovenia, croatia, bosnia, pannonia

Scutari/ Shkodra was the center of the Illyrian Queen Teuta, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teuta, so all you saying makes no historical sense.


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blevins13
30-06-17, 09:14
Now everyone getting political all of a sudden. Ok. We are Thraco-Sarmatians. You are Illyro-Thracians mixed with other stuff you are debating with Yetos lol. You branch from us, evidence is Albanczyk is 20% I2A + 10% R1A = 30% Slav markers. Your silly I2A-Slav joke you talk about, 30% I2A-Slav is 1/3 of your genes.

Dream on....


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Kingslav
30-06-17, 22:57
Dream on....


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Why you mad? Telling you truth, you can try prove me wrong. Whats your theory? Try prove with facts, Im not accepting anymore folktales

Garrick
01-07-17, 12:28
[email protected]
You even made an assumption that Bastarnae are "Germans" there is no such proof whatsoever.
Bastareus is name of Thracian ruler/king of present day R.Macedonia 4.B.C most probably a Paeonian/Thracian.

Magna Germania in antiquity does not equal the present day connotation Germans,has no ethnic connotation or linguistic connotation of today.Just like in Illyria were living people speaking different languages,the same way in Magna Germania were living people speaking different languages and not only Germans of today.If you take Strabo clasification of Bastarnae as Germani,or the Veneti as Germani he does that because they were not nomads like the Sarmatians,but traveled on foot so were part of Germani!
Regarding "Gothi/Getae" i gave my opinion and opinion on some scholars who even wrote books about it.

This is Thracian coin and not German.

http://munzeo.com/images/18.Sep.2011/170682073725_2.JPG


Overally we will wait much more to make general conclusion about this haplogroup I2a din.

It is not what someone wants or dream, you can see here a bunch of dreamers.

Truth is quite different.

Bastarnae were German tribe, it is proved. Yes someone can thinks that in Bastarnae were elements of other populations.

Bastarnae are most probably creators of Zarubintsy culture, it is area where I-CTS10228 emerged after bottleneck; it was not Slavic culture what is proved.

Bastarnae migrated to South East and there they mixed with Thracians (Getae-Dacians) and Sarmatians. It is reason why I-CTS10228 were not spread in the West of Europe where it created but in South and East.

Bastarnae entered deep in territory of Dacia (Peuceni) and it is reason why Romanians and Moldavians high percents this haplogroup.

Bastarnae arrived in todays Serbia - Moesia and Dardania too. And Dacians/Thracians brought this haplogroup around Balkans too. There were several possibilities how this haplogroup arrived in Illiricum. Theoreticaly even younger clade I-PH908 could emerge in Illyricum todays Western Serbia, Bosnia or Montenegro.

Sarmatians spread this haplogroup northern and eastern to the Slavs.

There is no more dilemma, Bastarnae was German tribe, technically it is correct to say I-CTS10228 is German marker. But since this marker is truly European and by origin and it is related to several European populations, it is most correct to call it:

I2a-European.

blevins13
01-07-17, 14:57
You are going off topic.

Everytime you post spam and propaganda, i will just repeat myself again.

I2a-slav/din came to the balkans with slavs.
As this is one of the strongest slavic markers.
No ancient I2a-slav/din has been found the balkans.


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This makes sense so far....


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blevins13
01-07-17, 15:02
I said already my theory since second post, I2A-Din people are descendants of Thracians.

" I am not Illyrian descendant IMO, Illyrian is south Balkans. Specifically Albanians. I believe Thracians come from near Black Sea coast ( Romania, Moldova, Ukraine ) where you can find I2A." - Kingslav Page 16

You wish but no way....I think Slavs might have more chances to be aliens than Thracians


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blevins13
01-07-17, 16:02
no I have no agenda,
that is why I did not took much posts in this thread,
but the difference is obvious,

it clearly a population that moved from elsewhere to Albania,
and surely not ancient,
rather Roman or medieval Crusades or Normands,
the peak is very high to consider it ancient, as also is not from Anatoolia neither from Alps neither from Yamnaa,
it is from West Europe,

Admit it and do not hide behind finger,
Like it or not,
Atlantic is not a mark that created in Balkans,
but a mark brought to Aimos peninsula.






Yetos, you are all over the place, first you said Albanians were brought by Turks, now they are crusaders ..... will see what will be next.



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Garrick
01-07-17, 16:07
blevins13

Three posts but do not help you.

Garrick
01-07-17, 21:03
I have one more ....maybe it is alien. The proto-slave has been taken by aliens and modified genetically and than also abused in many ways.


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Yes, when someone has no idea about problem aliens and UFO are first thoughts.

Unfortunately they are usually weather balloons, planet Venus, rared cloud formations, ball lightning, meteors, artificial satellites, lanterns, flares, aircraft, and sometimes hoaxes.

http://www.higgypop.com/blog/10-most-common-explanations-for-ufo-sightings/

So, before someone thinks that Bastarnae are aliens there are better explanations:

http://dbpedia.org/page/Bastarnae

The Bastarnae (Latin variants: Bastarni, or Basternae; Ancient Greek: Βαστάρναι or Βαστέρναι) were an ancient people who between 200 BC and 300 AD inhabited the region between the Carpathian mountains and the river Dnieper, to the north and east of ancient Dacia. The Peucini, denoted a branch of the Bastarnae by Greco-Roman writers, occupied the region north of the Danube delta. The ethno-linguistic affiliation of the Bastarnae was probably Germanic, which is supported by ancient historians and modern archeology. However, some ancient literary sources imply Celtic or Scytho-Sarmatian influences. The most likely scenario is that they were originally a group of East Germanic tribes, originally resident in the lower Vistula river valley. In ca. 200 BC, these tribes then migrated, possibly accompanied by some Celtic elements, southeastwards into the North Pontic region. Some elements appear to have become assimilated, to some extent, by the surrounding Sarmatians by the 3rd century. Although largely sedentary, some elements may have adopted a semi-nomadic lifestyle. It has not, so far, been possible to identify archaeological sites which can be conclusively attributed to the Bastarnae. The archaeological horizons most often associated by scholars with the Bastarnae are the Zarubintsy and Poienesti-Lukashevka cultures. The Bastarnae first came into conflict with the Romans during the 1st century BC, when, in alliance with Dacians and Sarmatians, they unsuccessfully resisted Roman expansion into Moesia and Pannonia. Later, they appear to have maintained friendly relations with the Roman empire during the first two centuries AD. This changed from c. 180, when the Bastarnae are recorded as participants in an invasion of Roman territory, once again in alliance with Sarmatian and Dacian elements. In the mid-3rd century, the Bastarnae were part of a Gothic-led grand coalition of lower Danube tribes which repeatedly invaded the Balkan provinces of the Roman empire. Large numbers of Bastarnae were resettled within the Roman empire in the late 3rd century.

blevins13
02-07-17, 20:01
Oh very smart answer Blevin. You are educated brother, educated with wrong book. I am 100% SLAV, my dna results below you should read, I know exactly what I am. Through centuries of our WARS my ancestors keep gene pool clean. There is no true proof more than science and science will put your FOLKTALES to shame. Alien, I always consider someone who doesn't know what they are, but you can't put that on Slavs. You are getting away with racist comment "slaves" you wouldnt get away. Also thanks for posting picture man, I noticed you have blonde pigment more than even my sister, what ottoman ancestor did you get from? Poland has fastest growing economy in Europe year 2017, Garrick already addressed this but that is off topic so I will leave it alone for now.

Racism...no way, at the and we all come from the same place Africa, I am not sure about Slavs maybe their genes are really special Alien, just kidding, your claims about Thracian are funny but we have time and we will see who is right... I am R1b no relation to ottomans but even if I was an ottoman does that make me bad.

LABERIA
03-07-17, 11:23
It is not offense, do you really believe in that crap.

There are people who still believe earth is flat:

http://www.news.com.au/technology/science/space/the-flat-earth-theory-has-seen-a-resurgence-with-people-trying-to-prove-our-planet-is-not-a-sphere/news-story/0bd1226fbe2e2bc819ec12733591e8c9

Excuse me but i don't understand, what have to do the theory of flat earth with I2a-Din?

Garrick
03-07-17, 14:30
But even there was one i do not mind it. We are 100% autochthonous in the Balkans my DNA proves that.


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Wrong.

Objectively autochthonous in the Balkans is I-P37 forefather of I-CTS10228, found in Serbia in Lepen Whirl, time 8753-8351 BC.

If your ancestors are older in the Balkans than 9000 years BC, yes, you are autochthnous.

But probability is 0, therefore you are newcomer.

It is reality, fair tales are for other topics.

Johane Derite
03-07-17, 15:36
Wrong.

Objectively autochthonous in the Balkans is I-P37 forefather of I-CTS10228, found in Serbia in Lepen Whirl, time 8753-8351 BC.

Can I have a link for this source?

blevins13
03-07-17, 16:05
Wrong.

Objectively autochthonous in the Balkans is I-P37 forefather of I-CTS10228, found in Serbia in Lepen Whirl, time 8753-8351 BC.

If your ancestors are older in the Balkans than 9000 years BC, yes, you are autochthnous.

But probability is 0, therefore you are newcomer.

It is reality, fair tales are for other topics.

Illuminate us with some academic references but not from pseudoscientist..... and than we will consider changing our ideas based on what has been proven so far....


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Trojet
03-07-17, 18:47
Objectively autochthonous in the Balkans is I-P37 forefather of I-CTS10228, found in Serbia in Lepen Whirl, time 8753-8351 BC.


Can I have a link for this source?

No, because this is another disinformation that Garrick the Serb is trying to sneak in, just like he was trying to do here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29041-I2a-Din-came-to-the-Balkans-and-Dinaric-Alps-with-the-Thracians-Dacians-Illyrians/page22?p=512387&viewfull=1#post512387).

Sample I5236, which he is talking about, could not have been the "forefather" of I-CTS10228 because he is negative for I-M423 where I-CTS10228 stems from. He is either some extinct I-P37 or possibly I-M26, which is the "Sardinian" branch and split during the Paleolithic.

What he doesn't tell you is that in the same area (Iron Gates, Serbia) they found R1b's from the Mesolithic (samples I5237, I5240). So by his logic those R1b's are the "forefathers" of all current Balkan R1b's. However, this is not true either, as they are negative for R1b-M269, where Balkan R1b stems from. (Source (http://www.biorxiv.org/highwire/filestream/42639/field_highwire_adjunct_files/1/135616-2.xlsx)).

http://i65.tinypic.com/2rzv144.jpg

Angela
03-07-17, 18:52
Blevins, the next time you use the word "slave" instead of "Slav", you'll get an infraction.

If you people keep posting off-topic material after all the warnings, I'm going to start handing out infractions again.

Yetos
03-07-17, 19:24
Yetos, you are all over the place, first you said Albanians were brought by Turks, now they are crusaders ..... will see what will be next.



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Blevins since you read my post,

Tell what I say,
Before I send your post to moderators,

I am clear what I said,

And I Insist on that.

and next time you blaim me such, I will call moderators,

Fustan
03-07-17, 20:03
No, because this is another disinformation that Garrick the Serb is trying to sneak in, just like he was trying to do here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29041-I2a-Din-came-to-the-Balkans-and-Dinaric-Alps-with-the-Thracians-Dacians-Illyrians/page22?p=512387&viewfull=1#post512387).

Sample I5236, which he is talking about, could not have been the "forefather" of I-CTS10228 because he is negative for I-M423 where I-CTS10228 stems from. He is either some extinct I-P37 or possibly I-M26, which is the "Sardinian" branch and split during the Paleolithic.

What he doesn't tell you is that in the same area (Iron Gates, Serbia) they found R1b's from the Mesolithic (samples I5237, I5240). So by his logic those R1b's are the "forefathers" of all current Balkan R1b's. However, this is not true either, as they are negative for R1b-M269, where Balkan R1b stems from. (Source (http://www.biorxiv.org/highwire/filestream/42639/field_highwire_adjunct_files/1/135616-2.xlsx)).

http://i65.tinypic.com/2rzv144.jpg


Wow, thanks for this post! Garrick almost fooled me again, he's very sneaky and seems to try to trick people all the time!

Again, very informative post as always Trojet.

Megalophias
03-07-17, 20:19
Also ancient I2a1-P37 is found all over Europe, right back to Bichon from Switzerland, who is over 13 000 years old. Also Loschbour from Luxembourg, Motala from Sweden, Latvian hunter-gatherers, western European Neolithic farmers.

gyms
03-07-17, 20:26
Negligible genetic flow in Slavic expansion to the Balcans
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.hu/2015/09/negligible-genetic-flow-in-slavic.html

Fatherland
03-07-17, 20:47
No, because this is another disinformation that Garrick the Serb is trying to sneak in, just like he was trying to do here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29041-I2a-Din-came-to-the-Balkans-and-Dinaric-Alps-with-the-Thracians-Dacians-Illyrians/page22?p=512387&viewfull=1#post512387).

Sample I5236, which he is talking about, could not have been the "forefather" of I-CTS10228 because he is negative for I-M423 where I-CTS10228 stems from. He is either some extinct I-P37 or possibly I-M26, which is the "Sardinian" branch and split during the Paleolithic.

What he doesn't tell you is that in the same area (Iron Gates, Serbia) they found R1b's from the Mesolithic (samples I5237, I5240). So by his logic those R1b's are the "forefathers" of all current Balkan R1b's. However, this is not true either, as they are negative for R1b-M269, where Balkan R1b stems from. (Source (http://www.biorxiv.org/highwire/filestream/42639/field_highwire_adjunct_files/1/135616-2.xlsx)).

http://i65.tinypic.com/2rzv144.jpg

Quoted for the absolute truth. You defeated Garrick completely in this post.

Garrick is very sneaky and posts nonsense at nights when nobody is on.

Garrick
03-07-17, 21:54
Negligible genetic flow in Slavic expansion to the Balcans


http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.hu/2015/09/negligible-genetic-flow-in-slavic.html

Gyms
Here we have fun, some people don't want realize where I-CTS10228 and his older clades until forefathers could lived and moved.

We can notice link from Balkans via Western Europe to Northern Europe, and it is area about we can talk.

It means older clades of I-CTS10228 were in Western Europe and we can search how much they could be to north and south.

Poor people who "invent" term I2a-Slav, it is nonsense over nonsense, but human stupidity has no limits.

They live in hopeless that nothing will be found about I-CTS10228 in the time of bottlenecks, and earlier for older clades - direct ancestors.

I said, it is irony that technically I-CTS10228 is German marker because most probably it emerged after bottleneck among members of German tribe Bastarnae.

Irony, because German troops came to the Balkans twice and fought against Southern Slavs not knowing that they originate from a German tribe.

Yes this haplogroup entered in genetic fund of Thracians and they spread this haplogroup in the Balkans but originally it is German (Bastarnae) marker.

Given the very exciting destiny and definitely completely European, without problem, someone can use term I2a-European marker.

Garrick
03-07-17, 22:05
Quoted for the absolute truth. You defeated Garrick completely in this post.

Garrick is very sneaky and posts nonsense at nights when nobody is on.

Wrong, certainly you can believe in your idol who invented term "I2a-Slav", nobody defend you to believe.

There will be unlimited disappointment when the truth is revealed, dices are getting faster.

blevins13
03-07-17, 22:34
Blevins since you read my post,

Tell what I say,
Before I send your post to moderators,

I am clear what I said,

And I Insist on that.

and next time you blaim me such, I will call moderators,



I have read your posts, you have been posting from 2011.


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blevins13
03-07-17, 22:36
Blevins, the next time you use the word "slave" instead of "Slav", you'll get an infraction.

If you people keep posting off-topic material after all the warnings, I'm going to start handing out infractions again.

Hi Angela, that was a typing mistake, there was no intention to insult anyone.


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Garrick
03-07-17, 23:41
Blevins since you read my post, Tell what I say, Before I send your post to moderators, I am clear what I said, And I Insist on that. and next time you blaim me such, I will call moderators,

Story is over.

I asked: Where are Slavs, and nobody answered. How people who "invent" that I-CTS10228 is "I2a-Slav" cannot find Slavs on the Ptolomy chart, it is implausible (stupid).

Question: Where are Slavs? can be changed in another question. In which Slavic tribe I-CTS10228 emerged after bottleneck, 2300 (or more) years ago?

And nobody who "knows" about "I2a-Slav" marker will give answer because know nothing. Things are complex and since problem is very complex it is easiest to speak empty without being in the essence.

Certainly problem what I-CTS10228 is hard to find in early times is what Bastarnae cremated bodies to temperatures reaching 900 degrees C, but scientists will find sooner or later, and older clades too, what is important to follow movements and territory.

Angela
04-07-17, 00:00
Hi Angela, that was a typing mistake, there was no intention to insult anyone.


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O.K. Good. Glad to hear it, Blevins.

@Garrick,
The fact remains that your post about the different lineages was incorrect and misleading.

Garrick
04-07-17, 01:59
@Garrick,
The fact remains that your post about the different lineages was incorrect and misleading.

Angela
Only fact is that I2a-Slav is incorrect and stupid term. There is nowhere else except on this forum. Using this wrong term completely reduces the reputation of the entire forum. But those who "invented" it are not even aware of what kind of stupidity they have done.

...
And sometimes it is just a matter of time. For example I gave information that I-CTS10228* is found in Alsace (France near German border). If more people say something, that does not mean they are right.

Everyone can see that I gave correct information (the other thing is that it disturbs someone's wrong assumptions):

http://i.imgur.com/swPGPog.png

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/

By clicking FRA we can see area is Bas-Rhin and it is in Alsace.

It means my post was correct.

Kingslav
04-07-17, 04:47
Negligible genetic flow in Slavic expansion to the Balcans


http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.hu/2015/09/negligible-genetic-flow-in-slavic.html

False propaganda in this article. Can be summed up first quote comments by Davidski...

"This study didn't have any samples from the ethnic Polish core (Greater Poland in West-Central Poland). The only western Polish sample is from Wroclaw, which was mostly settled by migrants what is now western Ukraine after WWII. Other Polish samples are from Warsaw, which is actually in what was originally Masovia, and even Estonia, which was a Polish colony a couple of hundred years ago. Yes, they actually used people from the Polish diaspora in Estonia, where there was a lot of mixing between Poles, Estonians and Russians.

So I don't really know what this paper says about Poland's genetic structure? Probably not much."

This paper tells nothing about truth of Poles and author is telling half lies trying to separate East, West, South Slavs but then ironically it shows on graph these groups overlapping or closest radius to each other. Lol. What is point of this post gyms? Leave the Slavic matters to those with the expertise my neighbour of north. Some people are looking hard for these "unique" research papers. Lol

Dinarid
04-07-17, 05:19
I still struggle to see how the main branch of I2a1b-Dinaric (+L147.2) can be attributed in its entirety to Slavic invaders. It doesn't seem likely that anything brought by relatively recent invaders could be so pervasive throughout deeply-entrenched populations with millennia of history living where they have, including such high frequencies among Romanians and non-negligeable concentrations in other non-Slavic groups around the Balkans.

Nik
04-07-17, 08:27
I still struggle to see how the main branch of I2a1b-Dinaric (+L147.2) can be attributed in its entirety to Slavic invaders. It doesn't seem likely that anything brought by relatively recent invaders could be so pervasive throughout deeply-entrenched populations with millennia of history living where they have, including such high frequencies among Romanians and non-negligeable concentrations in other non-Slavic groups around the Balkans.
It is in the advantage of some insecure Albanians to be autochthonous and unique in front of Internet forum members. Same goes to the insecure South Slavs. Must be the effects of Stormfront or whatever other forums there are. I personally see it as an inferiority complex wanting to be accepted by the enemy.

No matter how hard they try to prove their point of being Illyrians and indigenous, many people will still hate us and despise our heritage due to religion and criminality. If one day there will be a scientific paper called 'The Illyrian-Albanian continuity', such people will transfer the hatred to the Illyrians and call them dirty pirate scum LOL

It actually takes a trip to such countries and a few friends to start to realize that we're more similar than different despite one side being I2a dominated (well thats the case only for Herzegovina anyway) and the other E-V13 and J2b2 dominated.

Even if I2a is indeed Slavic, that would make the male population of Serbia max 50% Slavic descended, so basically 1/4 Slavic.

Kingslav
04-07-17, 09:18
It is in the advantage of some insecure Albanians to be autochthonous and unique in front of Internet forum members. Same goes to the insecure South Slavs. Must be the effects of Stormfront or whatever other forums there are. I personally see it as an inferiority complex wanting to be accepted by the enemy.

No matter how hard they try to prove their point of being Illyrians and indigenous, many people will still hate us and despise our heritage due to religion and criminality. If one day there will be a scientific paper called 'The Illyrian-Albanian continuity', such people will transfer the hatred to the Illyrians and call them dirty pirate scum LOL

It actually takes a trip to such countries and a few friends to start to realize that we're more similar than different despite one side being I2a dominated (well thats the case only for Herzegovina anyway) and the other E-V13 and J2b2 dominated.

Even if I2a is indeed Slavic, that would make the male population of Serbia max 50% Slavic descended, so basically 1/4 Slavic.


I2A Slavs and R1A Slavs we are not entirely Slavic in ancient perspective must be remembered as others addressed already. We mixed with Thracians, Sarmatians, Scythians, Bastarnae, Tatars, Balts, Vikings that is just some ancient groups that I can confirm not even mentioning some modern groups we mixed with. There is more groups we mixing with as we conquered and maintained land mass of Northeast & Southeast Europe. For example, Serbs this means mixing with Illyrians, etc through expansion. For some Albanians this means mixing with Serbs, etc. I have infront of me Serbs showing average 29.1%-35.4% I2A and 20.4%-25.8% R1A. Serbs is NOT 1/4 Slav like you are attempting here. Serbs is MORE than HALF Slavic. To be technical 50%-61% of I2A/R1A combined in Serbs and we know these are the 2 Slavic haplogroups.

Bergin
04-07-17, 12:24
I still struggle to see how the main branch of I2a1b-Dinaric (+L147.2) can be attributed in its entirety to Slavic invaders. It doesn't seem likely that anything brought by relatively recent invaders could be so pervasive throughout deeply-entrenched populations with millennia of history living where they have, including such high frequencies among Romanians and non-negligeable concentrations in other non-Slavic groups around the Balkans.

Nothing is 100%.
It is somehow paradoxical to consider I2a-din a recent arrival, when I think we all agree that it has been in the Balkans at least for 1500 years.
There is no chance that people knew about being I, R, J, or E haplogroups. They were just mixing, and today the Balkans is autosomally very correlated.
I would have been much more surprised if you would have no I2a-din among other Balkan populations.

gyms
04-07-17, 12:34
What is point of this post gyms? Leave the Slavic matters to those with the expertise my neighbour of north. Some people are looking hard for these "unique" research papers. Lol

I-CTS10228 is not a Slavic matter,My Lord.

Kingslav
04-07-17, 12:53
What is point of this post gyms? Leave the Slavic matters to those with the expertise my neighbour of north. Some people are looking hard for these "unique" research papers. Lol

I-CTS10228 is not a Slavic matter,My Lord.

Lol you are saying I am not slav? Funny joke, I am I-CTS10228. Which means same as I2A-Din but gyms wants to look clever with his whiny response

Garrick
04-07-17, 13:30
Lol you are saying I am not slav? Funny joke, I am I-CTS10228. Which means same as I2A-Din but gyms wants to look clever with his whiny response.

Kingslav
Certainly you can be Slav. It depends which is your clade. What TMRCA for your clade is younger probability that you are Slav increases, if it is older than 1400 years probability is much smaller. But it is not so easy, also you need to collect more information, for example from which tribe (fraternity) is your family, geographical area, historical records, can you monitor movements your ancestors etc. Sometimes it requires a lot of effort and time, it can be hard mission. Only you are I-CTS10228 cannot tell with high probability if you Slav or no.

Kingslav
04-07-17, 13:57
Kingslav
Certainly you can be Slav. It depends which is your clade. What TMRCA for your clade is younger probability that you are Slav increases, if it is older than 1400 years probability is much smaller. But it is not so easy, also you need to collect more information, for example from which tribe (fraternity) is your family, geographical area, historical records, can you monitor movements your ancestors etc. Sometimes it requires a lot of effort and time, it can be hard mission. Only you are I-CTS10228 cannot tell with high probability if you Slav or no.

Garrick you overthinking about clades and TMRCA. We are similar humans from same tribes. This concept is simple. Vlachs, Dacian, Thracians, Getae, White Croats, I2A-Din, R1A and others is all different names for similar tribes given by different historian for these tribes who were assimilating each other to make slavs. I wouldnt be online here discussing, if I didnt have already detailed family history.

LABERIA
04-07-17, 14:36
Garrick you overthinking about clades and TMRCA. We are similar humans from same tribes. This concept is simple. Vlachs, Dacian, Thracians, Getae, White Croats, I2A-Din, R1A and others is all different names for similar tribes given by different historian for these tribes who were assimilating each other to make slavs. I wouldnt be online here discussing, if I didnt have already detailed family history.

One day you will claim that even ancient greeks were slavs. There are people who support this kind of theories. You are just doing your best, to give an international attention to this theories that you discuss in your slavic forums.

Nik
04-07-17, 14:56
I have infront of me Serbs showing average 29.1%-35.4% I2A and 20.4%-25.8% R1A. Serbs is NOT 1/4 Slav like you are attempting here. Serbs is MORE than HALF Slavic. To be technical 50%-61% of I2A/R1A combined in Serbs and we know these are the 2 Slavic haplogroups.
Say hi to the Serbs in front of u.

50%-61% of combined I2a + R1a means they're only 25%-30.5% Slavic at best, unless Slavs come from eggs and don't require women to reproduce, therefore mtdna doesn't count for you.

Long story short serbs are 10%-25% max Slavic with the evidence we have so far.

I still don't know how a 60% Slav ends up having mostly brown eyes and dark hair, belonging predominantly to the Dinaric type, while the more pure Slavs fall into the extreme opposite set of characteristics with mostly blue eyes and having some of the highest percentages of fair hair in the world. What's even worse is that the areas with more I2a like 70% in Herzergovina end up being even taller and with darker eye and hair pigmentation than the surrounding areas. Some intriguing shyt I'd say.

You think its the mountain air and cevapi messing up the genes?

Garrick
04-07-17, 15:01
Garrick you overthinking about clades and TMRCA. We are similar humans from same tribes. This concept is simple. Vlachs, Dacian, Thracians, Getae, White Croats, I2A-Din, R1A and others is all different names for similar tribes given by different historian for these tribes who were assimilating each other to make slavs. I wouldnt be online here discussing, if I didnt have already detailed family history.

Kingslav, you gave me excellent idea, it would be good that someone open new thread about Early Slavs, because here is main problem, many people have no elementary understanding, and they think that Slavs are aliens or have come out of nowhere.

But, you agree, it is not for this thread, here is question of origin of I-CTS10228, in which population it is emerged and first came to the Balkans.

With all the knowledge we posses we know that term I2a-Slav is stupidity, and instead of real discussions we have to watch many spams and nonsense, but all right, it can be good for fun, and we will seriously approach closer and better answers.

IronSide
04-07-17, 15:16
I swear by all the gods that this thread will never stop.

LeBrok
04-07-17, 15:22
It is in the advantage of some insecure Albanians to be autochthonous and unique in front of Internet forum members. Same goes to the insecure South Slavs. Must be the effects of Stormfront or whatever other forums there are. I personally see it as an inferiority complex wanting to be accepted by the enemy.

No matter how hard they try to prove their point of being Illyrians and indigenous, many people will still hate us and despise our heritage due to religion and criminality. If one day there will be a scientific paper called 'The Illyrian-Albanian continuity', such people will transfer the hatred to the Illyrians and call them dirty pirate scum LOL

It actually takes a trip to such countries and a few friends to start to realize that we're more similar than different despite one side being I2a dominated (well thats the case only for Herzegovina anyway) and the other E-V13 and J2b2 dominated.

Even if I2a is indeed Slavic, that would make the male population of Serbia max 50% Slavic descended, so basically 1/4 Slavic.Exactly. We are all mixtures local hunter gatherers, Anatolian farmers, IE migrants, and few others. And yet people will find something superior in themselves and hatred for the others.

LABERIA
04-07-17, 15:55
Say hi to the Serbs in front of u.

50%-61% of combined I2a + R1a means they're only 25%-30.5% Slavic at best, unless Slavs come from eggs and don't require women to reproduce, therefore mtdna doesn't count for you.

Long story short serbs are 10%-25% max Slavic with the evidence we have so far.

I still don't know how a 60% Slav ends up having mostly brown eyes and dark hair, belonging predominantly to the Dinaric type, while the more pure Slavs fall into the extreme opposite set of characteristics with mostly blue eyes and having some of the highest percentages of fair hair in the world. What's even worse is that the areas with more I2a like 70% in Herzergovina end up being even taller and with darker eye and hair pigmentation than the surrounding areas. Some intriguing shyt I'd say.

You think its the mountain air and cevapi messing up the genes?

Serbs are heavily mixed with Turks. The concept of ethnic purity is stupid and nobody accept it. But mixing of population is not the same in various nations. From all Balkan people, Serbs are the most mixed with Turks. This is an common knowledge and it is supported by many historical sources, even in the serbian folklore you can find evidences of this.

LeBrok
04-07-17, 16:19
Serbs are heavily mixed with Turks. The concept of ethnic purity is stupid and nobody accept it. But mixing of population is not the same in various nations. From all Balkan people, Serbs are the most mixed with Turks. This is an common knowledge and it is supported by many historical sources, even in the serbian folklore you can find evidences of this.I'll take this post as your effort into demining ethnicities. One more attempt and you'll see consequences. This time just a warning.
And for your information, there is no genetic evidence that Serbs are the most mixed with Turks. However, I'm not saying that it would be something bad.

Johane Derite
04-07-17, 16:33
Serbs are heavily mixed with Turks. The concept of ethnic purity is stupid and nobody accept it. But mixing of population is not the same in various nations. From all Balkan people, Serbs are the most mixed with Turks. This is an common knowledge and it is supported by many historical sources, even in the serbian folklore you can find evidences of this.

This is just unfounded and obviously racist conjecture. Seriously you bring shame to me as an Albanian when I read at what levels you are debating in this thread. Don't speak for Albanians when you argue on forums about issues that clearly pertain to your individual particular insecurities and psychological complexes.

LABERIA
04-07-17, 16:36
This is just unfounded and obviously racist conjecture. Seriously you bring shame to me as an Albanian when I read at what levels you are debating in this thread. Don't speak for Albanians when you argue on forums about issues that clearly pertain to your individual particular insecurities and psychological complexes.

It's absolutely true and are plenty of evidences, but i don't intend to continue this discussion because i got an warning from the mod.
Please, speak for yourself and not in the name of Albanians.

Trojet
04-07-17, 16:50
I'll take this post as your effort into demining ethnicities. One more attempt and you'll see consequences. This time just a warning.
And for your information, there is no genetic evidence that Serbs are the most mixed with Turks. However, I'm not saying that it would be something bad.

I see you are pretty quick to jump into something that you think is offensive. I don't necessarily agree with Labëria, but I didn't take his post the same way you did. It's true that nations are mixed, some more than others. You basically said the same thing in your previous post.

But if you're going to interfere, at least be consistent like Angela. User Garrick basically called certain members "poor" and "stupid", as you can see below, and yet you said nothing.


Poor people who "invent" term I2a-Slav, it is nonsense over nonsense, but human stupidity has no limits.

LeBrok
04-07-17, 16:54
I see you are pretty quick to jump into something that you think is offensive. I don't always agree with Labëria, but I didn't take his post the same way you did. It's true that nations are mixed. You basically said the same thing in your previous post.

But if you're going to interfere, at least be consistent. User Garrick basically called certain members "stupid", as you can see below, and yet you said nothing.
I advise you to get off you warhorse.

Trojet
04-07-17, 16:55
I advise you to get off you warhorse.

LOL, is that your response?
And you're a moderator?!

Bergin
04-07-17, 16:57
It is in the advantage of some insecure Albanians to be autochthonous and unique in front of Internet forum members. Same goes to the insecure South Slavs. Must be the effects of Stormfront or whatever other forums there are. I personally see it as an inferiority complex wanting to be accepted by the enemy.

No matter how hard they try to prove their point of being Illyrians and indigenous, many people will still hate us and despise our heritage due to religion and criminality. If one day there will be a scientific paper called 'The Illyrian-Albanian continuity', such people will transfer the hatred to the Illyrians and call them dirty pirate scum LOL

It actually takes a trip to such countries and a few friends to start to realize that we're more similar than different despite one side being I2a dominated (well thats the case only for Herzegovina anyway) and the other E-V13 and J2b2 dominated.

Even if I2a is indeed Slavic, that would make the male population of Serbia max 50% Slavic descended, so basically 1/4 Slavic.

Highlighting similarities between Balkan people is a noble thing to do.
But there is no complex of inferiority in being proud of the small differences.
What makes the Balkan such fantastic place are the large varieties within small distances.

Cip
04-07-17, 19:16
Serbs is NOT 1/4 Slav like you are attempting here. Serbs is MORE than HALF Slavic. To be technical 50%-61% of I2A/R1A combined in Serbs and we know these are the 2 Slavic haplogroups.

By that logic Romania (I2a-28%, R1a-18%) must be 46% slavic and Bulgaria (I2a-20%, R1a-17%) - 37% slavic! LOL
I suport the ideea that first I2a came with Bastarnae, entered the genepool of dacians and other populations including later slavs. The origin of slavs is debated, the origin of romanians is debated. Why is there so much I2a in romanians and vlachs, if it was only a slavic marker.
In Croatia, Istria peninsula there was a group of latin speaking vlachs called istro-romanians that settled in a completely deserted region, just after the black plage. They originated in north Transilvania, Maramures area. I wonder if there is any data about their haploroups. Most of them were slavised in time.

Fatherland
04-07-17, 20:59
Say hi to the Serbs in front of u.

50%-61% of combined I2a + R1a means they're only 25%-30.5% Slavic at best, unless Slavs come from eggs and don't require women to reproduce, therefore mtdna doesn't count for you.

Long story short serbs are 10%-25% max Slavic with the evidence we have so far.

I still don't know how a 60% Slav ends up having mostly brown eyes and dark hair, belonging predominantly to the Dinaric type, while the more pure Slavs fall into the extreme opposite set of characteristics with mostly blue eyes and having some of the highest percentages of fair hair in the world. What's even worse is that the areas with more I2a like 70% in Herzergovina end up being even taller and with darker eye and hair pigmentation than the surrounding areas. Some intriguing shyt I'd say.

You think its the mountain air and cevapi messing up the genes?

Many Ukrainians are dark-haired, dark-eyed too. Your point is invalid. There is no such thing as a "pure Slav".

Not counting the women with dyed fake hair color or old people with grey hair(most of them were brunet too), but these people(Ukrainians) are mainly brunet:

Ukrainians

https://img.rt.com/files/news/23/00/50/00/333donetsk-kharkov-ukraine-protest.n.jpg

https://gdb.rferl.org/C31CAFFB-F5EA-4E9A-8444-113A0B8DFF8D_cx0_cy1_cw77_mw1024_mh1024_r1_s.jpg

http://i2.cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/140125094002-03-ukraine-protests-0124-horizontal-large-gallery.jpg

https://img.rt.com/files/2016.05/original/573efe34c46188dd5c8b459d.jpg

https://img.rt.com/files/news/27/92/c0/00/9.jpg


These are crowd-pictures so there is no cherrypicking.

Kingslav
04-07-17, 22:35
Say hi to the Serbs in front of u.

50%-61% of combined I2a + R1a means they're only 25%-30.5% Slavic at best, unless Slavs come from eggs and don't require women to reproduce, therefore mtdna doesn't count for you.

Long story short serbs are 10%-25% max Slavic with the evidence we have so far.

I still don't know how a 60% Slav ends up having mostly brown eyes and dark hair, belonging predominantly to the Dinaric type, while the more pure Slavs fall into the extreme opposite set of characteristics with mostly blue eyes and having some of the highest percentages of fair hair in the world. What's even worse is that the areas with more I2a like 70% in Herzergovina end up being even taller and with darker eye and hair pigmentation than the surrounding areas. Some intriguing shyt I'd say.

You think its the mountain air and cevapi messing up the genes?

This is amateur response. I hope people read just to understand true falseness of your statement lol. You are comparing every slav to northern slavs, making seem that we have blue eyes and gold hair lol. Here some proof, I have dark hair and dark eyes, my mother was same as me dark hair and dark eyes, my father is I2A-Din and has black hair. Not even brown but pitch black hair and dark eyes, he is 193 cm and all men on paternal side myself included are giants 190-205 cm and we are recorded as tallest haplogroup in world, I2A-Din. This is well noted and yes we are SLAVS. And as no surprise we tallest due to our nomadic warrior lifestyle being recruited by other groups to protect them from their "invaders" lol, and you think we not assimilate their women? Lol. In addition our warm climate in balkans and heavy meat diet didnt hurt our development so get me some cevapi off bbq. And height genetically predetermined for most part as I told you already.

Kingslav
04-07-17, 22:48
Nik you attempting to cover Serbian Slavic % because you part Serb and you know this, so bringing down Slavic % in Serbs is CONVENIENT for Albanians. This couldnt be more FALSE. I2A-Din is SLAVIC.

Kingslav
04-07-17, 23:15
Kingslav, you gave me excellent idea, it would be good that someone open new thread about Early Slavs, because here is main problem, many people have no elementary understanding, and they think that Slavs are aliens or have come out of nowhere.

But, you agree, it is not for this thread, here is question of origin of I-CTS10228, in which population it is emerged and first came to the Balkans.

With all the knowledge we posses we know that term I2a-Slav is stupidity, and instead of real discussions we have to watch many spams and nonsense, but all right, it can be good for fun, and we will seriously approach closer and better answers.

I agree. Its like educating little baby who is stubborn and wont listen, and depends on weak insult alien lol, they make themselves look "uneducated" lol and there is people on here reading who is NEUTRAL and can put 1 and 2 together to see truth. Not my problem.

Kingslav
05-07-17, 00:05
By that logic Romania (I2a-28%, R1a-18%) must be 46% slavic and Bulgaria (I2a-20%, R1a-17%) - 37% slavic! LOL
I suport the ideea that first I2a came with Bastarnae, entered the genepool of dacians and other populations including later slavs. The origin of slavs is debated, the origin of romanians is debated. Why is there so much I2a in romanians and vlachs, if it was only a slavic marker.
In Croatia, Istria peninsula there was a group of latin speaking vlachs called istro-romanians that settled in a completely deserted region, just after the black plage. They originated in north Transilvania, Maramures area. I wonder if there is any data about their haploroups. Most of them were slavised in time.

That is right cip, actually my paternal grandfather was living Bukovina which is now Romania ironically for you. Lol. Different borders back then. My father in early 1960s knew his grandfather and uncles who I never met they were deceased by time I was born, he tells me they identified as Bulgarian. He remembers them for their "Dark Hairy Beards" as we can grow easy. This was long time before internet or there would be more proof. We are POLES nonetheless and this was decided by events that took place during and after WW2. Difficult for uneducated people to understand. I know.

LeBrok
05-07-17, 00:14
I agree. Its like educating little baby who is stubborn and wont listen, and depends on weak insult alien lol, they make themselves look "uneducated" lol and there is people on here reading who is NEUTRAL and can put 1 and 2 together to see truth. Not my problem.
Please, tone down your rhetoric.

Kingslav
05-07-17, 00:30
Many Ukrainians are dark-haired, dark-eyed too. Your point is invalid. There is no such thing as a "pure Slav".

Not counting the women with dyed fake hair color or old people with grey hair(most of them were brunet too), but these people(Ukrainians) are mainly brunet:

Ukrainians

https://img.rt.com/files/news/23/00/50/00/333donetsk-kharkov-ukraine-protest.n.jpg

https://gdb.rferl.org/C31CAFFB-F5EA-4E9A-8444-113A0B8DFF8D_cx0_cy1_cw77_mw1024_mh1024_r1_s.jpg

http://i2.cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/140125094002-03-ukraine-protests-0124-horizontal-large-gallery.jpg

https://img.rt.com/files/2016.05/original/573efe34c46188dd5c8b459d.jpg

https://img.rt.com/files/news/27/92/c0/00/9.jpg


These are crowd-pictures so there is no cherrypicking.

Appreciate this post Fatherland. Solid post of Ukrainians in Kiev. They mostly not gold hair.

Cip
05-07-17, 00:40
That is right cip, actually my paternal grandfather was living Bukovina which is now Romania ironically for you. Lol. Different borders back then. My father in early 1960s knew his grandfather and uncles who I never met they were deceased by time I was born, he tells me they identified as Bulgarian. He remembers them for their "Dark Hairy Beards" as we can grow easy. This was long time before internet or there would be more proof. We are POLES nonetheless and this was decided by events that took place during and after WW2. Difficult for uneducated people to understand. I know.
You know what is odd. My grandfather who died this year always referd to almost all slavs from Romania as Bulgarians.
I believe that this I2a-din entered at a early time in vlach and slavic population, my best choise would be Bastarnae. This population corespound in time and place to first bringing this Hg in area.

Kingslav
05-07-17, 00:55
You know what is odd. My grandfather who died this year always referd to almost all slavs from Romania as Bulgarians.
I believe that this I2a-din entered at a early time in vlach and slavic population, my best choise would be Bastarnae. This population corespound in time and place to first bringing this Hg in area.

If your Y-Haplogroup is G2A then I assume you would be much less Slavic than possibly other Romanians. What your grandfather said is correct and parallels with my own understanding. Sorry for your loss. In ancient perspective, we should remember Thrace was centered in Romania, Bulgaria.

Bergin
05-07-17, 00:56
I don't know much about the Bastarnae, is there any ancient Dna found in relation with these people?

Cip
05-07-17, 01:13
If your Y-Haplogroup is G2A then I assume you would be much less Slavic than possibly other Romanians. What your grandfather said is correct and parallels with my own understanding. Sorry for your loss. In ancient perspective, we should remember Thrace was centered in Romania, Bulgaria.
Yes. My Hg is G2a - Z29424 negativ to all subgroups TMRCA 3200 years - paleo-balkanic origin. My father did the test and autosomal he is 22% east Europe, so very probably slavic ancesters also. After all Romanians would not be Romanians without the slavic input.
I also suspect a strong link of I2a-din with the Chernyakhov culture. Maybe more research on this will led some light.

Dinarid
05-07-17, 03:17
It's funny because all of those engaged in bickering over it agree that I2a1b is autochthonous to the Balkans, whether "inherently Slavic" or not.

Bergin
05-07-17, 04:09
It's funny because all of those engaged in bickering over it agree that I2a1b is autochthonous to the Balkans, whether "inherently Slavic" or not.
Yes, I think that even 1500 years is a long time.

Tomenable
05-07-17, 05:07
Sample Niemcza_13 from Early Medieval Poland belongs to I2a-Din:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6522-Early-Medieval-aDNA-from-Poland-coming-soon&p=255823&viewfull=1#post255823

So far none of Iron Age Polish samples belongs to I2a-Din or R1a.

This is now one of the oldest I2a-Din samples in ancient DNA, right?:

Niemcza_13 (900-1000 AD), I2a1b2-L621+, mtDNA J1c3e1

Location of Niemcza (to the west of Krosno):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Niemcza

http://chrzest966.pl/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/mapa-Millenium-Plus-Hanna-Kocka-ryc1.bmp

Trojet
05-07-17, 05:55
Sample Niemcza_13 from Early Medieval Poland belongs to I2a-Din:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6522-Early-Medieval-aDNA-from-Poland-coming-soon&p=255823&viewfull=1#post255823

So far none of Iron Age Polish samples belongs to I2a-Din or R1a.

This is now one of the oldest I2a-Din samples in ancient DNA, right?:

Niemcza_13 (900-1000 AD), I2a1b2-L621+, mtDNA J1c3e1

Location of Niemcza (to the west of Krosno):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Niemcza

http://chrzest966.pl/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/mapa-Millenium-Plus-Hanna-Kocka-ryc1.bmp

Thanks! That's right, so far this should be the oldest I2a-"Din" in an ancient DNA context. And it makes an appearance in Poland during early Middle Ages, at the time of Slavic expansions?