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Tomenable
05-07-17, 06:01
And it makes an appearance in Poland during early Middle Ages, at the time of Slavic expansions?

This sample is from the 900s, so 250-350 years after Slavic expansions in Poland. But the 900s is definitely long before any Vlach immigration to Poland. So I2a-Din was in Medieval Poland before any Vlachs.

LeBrok
05-07-17, 06:07
Sample Niemcza_13 from Early Medieval Poland belongs to I2a-Din:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6522-Early-Medieval-aDNA-from-Poland-coming-soon&p=255823&viewfull=1#post255823

So far none of Iron Age Polish samples belongs to I2a-Din or R1a.

This is now one of the oldest I2a-Din samples in ancient DNA, right?:

Niemcza_13 (900-1000 AD), I2a1b2-L621+, mtDNA J1c3e1

Location of Niemcza (to the west of Krosno):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Niemcza

http://chrzest966.pl/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/mapa-Millenium-Plus-Hanna-Kocka-ryc1.bmp
Right on, it looks more and more like the mainstream archeologists and historians were not wrong saying that Iron Age in Poland up to end of Roman Times were mostly Germanic, and Slavic Expansion happened from East to the West and South in 6th century. Definitely, population replacement in Poland. Whatever Germanics left it wasn't more like 10% of new combined population.
No surprise here, and it always made sense to me.

Tomenable
05-07-17, 06:09
His mtDNA is also common in Slavic areas today:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J_mtDNA.shtml#subclades


J1c3e : found in central and north-eastern Europe

Trojet
05-07-17, 06:18
This sample is from the 900s, so 250-350 years after Slavic expansions in Poland. But the 900s is definitely long before any Vlach immigration to Poland. So I2a-Din was in Medieval Poland before any Vlachs.


Right on, it looks more and more like the mainstream archeologists and historians were not wrong saying that Iron Age in Poland up to end of Roman Times were mostly Germanic, and Slavic Expansion happened from East to the West and South in 6th century.

That's right!
And it appears those of us who looked at the data and chose to interpret them accordingly, were right all along regarding I2a-"Din" expansion.

Kingslav
05-07-17, 06:46
That's right!
And it appears those of us who looked at the data and chose to interpret them accordingly, were right all along regarding I2a-Din expansion. So it seems I2a-"Din" has been I2a-Slav confirmed.

This clade I2A-Din my ancestor, must not forget they were nomadic on horse, they covered entire continent of Eurasia meaning Asia and Europe on horse. What makes you think they cant go from balkan to polish/czech border where sample niemcza 13 was found? What is being celebrated? I2A-Dinaric that name scientist gave for mountains where I2A-Din found in highest concentrations. Nothing is changed. I2A-Din originated northeast balkans where second and only other branch is found. Not germany. If they got some I2A-Din up there consider yourself lucky.

Fatherland
05-07-17, 06:58
This clade I2A-Din my ancestor, must not forget they were nomadic on horse, they covered entire continent of Eurasia meaning Asia and Europe on horse. What makes you think they cant go from balkan to polish/czech border where sample niemcza 13 was found? What is being celebrated? I2A-Dinaric that name scientist gave for mountains where I2A-Din found in highest concentrations. Nothing is changed. I2A-Din originated northeast balkans where second and only other branch is found. Not germany. If they got some I2A-Din up there consider yourself lucky.
Wrong. There is nothing special about it.

Kingslav
05-07-17, 07:41
Wrong. There is nothing special about it.

Same as I2A-Din travel to polish/czech border they travel to Albania and assimilate there. And many others dont forget. There something special I2A-Din is tallest dont forget.

Kingslav
05-07-17, 08:08
I just read tomenable hypothesis of I2A-DIN expansion on anthrogenica.com and he has I2A-DIN expanding from Belarussia? The Polesian swamp marshes is home of I2A-DIN according tomenable where I2A-DIN is rarely found but this is birth place I2A-Din according tomenable. He even draw a map for you of his false hypothesis for Albanians to "salivate" over. I will post the link shortly. I really didnt want do this to a Pole, how can you push this agenda of yours and empower Albanians reading in this forum to believe your "theory"? You are R1B. I2A-Din not your haplogroup. Western spys.

Kingslav
05-07-17, 08:31
You can dislike my post, that is your right. Nothing changed for Albanians you are conquered by I2A-Din. You should know by this point, God blessed us Thracians with that endurance.

LABERIA
05-07-17, 09:40
You can dislike my post, that is your right. Nothing changed for Albanians you are conquered by I2A-Din. You should know by this point, God blessed us Thracians with that endurance.
It's good to avoid this discussions of Albanians conquered by I2A-Din. We know very well who was conquered and by whom. Let's respect the decision of LeBrok about this issue. Believe me, it's very painful if we enter in details. So, let's try to make a civilised discussion.

Nik
05-07-17, 11:02
Nik you attempting to cover Serbian Slavic % because you part Serb and you know this, so bringing down Slavic % in Serbs is CONVENIENT for Albanians. This couldnt be more FALSE. I2A-Din is SLAVIC.


This is amateur response. I hope people read just to understand true falseness of your statement lol. You are comparing every slav to northern slavs, making seem that we have blue eyes and gold hair lol. Here some proof, I have dark hair and dark eyes, my mother was same as me dark hair and dark eyes, my father is I2A-Din and has black hair. Not even brown but pitch black hair and dark eyes, he is 193 cm and all men on paternal side myself included are giants 190-205 cm and we are recorded as tallest haplogroup in world, I2A-Din. This is well noted and yes we are SLAVS. And as no surprise we tallest due to our nomadic warrior lifestyle being recruited by other groups to protect them from their "invaders" lol, and you think we not assimilate their women? Lol. In addition our warm climate in balkans and heavy meat diet didnt hurt our development so get me some cevapi off bbq. And height genetically predetermined for most part as I told you already.
Bla bla bla...

I even made sure to say that Northern Slavs have mostly blue eyes and some of the highest percentages of blonde hair, and you still didn't get it. Oh well, a lesson for me not to waste time.


Many Ukrainians are dark-haired, dark-eyed too. Your point is invalid. There is no such thing as a "pure Slav".

Not counting the women with dyed fake hair color or old people with grey hair(most of them were brunet too), but these people(Ukrainians) are mainly brunet:

These are crowd-pictures so there is no cherrypicking.
"Many Ukrainians are dark-haired, dark-eyed too". Wow, what a great point mate. I feel so stupid right now.

How about concentrating really hard on my post and read why its exactly in the place with almost 80-90% Slavic yDna haplogroups that the eyes are the darkest, and compare it to the surrounding areas. Unless you believe Albanians have lighter features than Slavs.

Then again, another issue rises. Did the Early South Slavs who belonged to I2a to guard the mountains while the R1a will take care of the lowlands? Seems like Early Slavs knew about genetics 15 centuries before us, or its simply an extreme coincidence that most of the I2a settled in Herzegovina?

Seems to me like they were being surrounded by incoming R1a.

But anyway, why I am wasting my time with the Albanian version of Kingslav.


Highlighting similarities between Balkan people is a noble thing to do.
But there is no complex of inferiority in being proud of the small differences.
What makes the Balkan such fantastic place are the large varieties within small distances.
The problem is that its not the small differences that create the complex of inferiority, it's the awareness of how others perceive them combined with a weak/childish personality which results in such people succumbing to the temptation of proving their worth to the people who despise them and don't even care about their arguments.

Such a waste of time and nerves if u ask me.

Many people hate us, so what?

They hate us for being mostly Muslim, so what? Our ancestors lived in a tough period where the Ottomans butchered us for 300 years, imposed high taxes, and sweetened the deal by allowing them to carry weapons and use horses if they convert. Case closed.

They hate us for spreading criminality in Europe or USA as if we are the only ones. Yeah we were screwed by the Western Powers having our lands given as gifts to our neighbours, then not supported by them in WW2 but rather given like trash to the Russians to do as they please, then following 45 years of harsh communist regime. What do you expect out of that, painters and ballerinas?

Long story short, this is who we r, a hot blooded nation with tendencies to violence trying to make our way to the top on our own at all costs and using all the methods we can.

Boasting in forums that we are Illyrians and E-V13, J2b2, R1b, etc. and that Serbs are newcomers won't change anything.

Kingslav
05-07-17, 11:18
It's good to avoid this discussions of Albanians conquered by I2A-Din. We know very well who was conquered and by whom. Let's respect the decision of LeBrok about this issue. Believe, it's very painful if we enter in details. So, let's try to make a civilised discussion.

"Around the 6th century, Slavs appeared on Byzantine borders in great numbers. The Byzantine records note that grass would not regrow in places where the slavs had marched through, so great were their numbers. After a military movement even the Peloponnese and Asia Minor were reported to have Slavic settlements. This southern movement has traditionally been seen as an invasive expansion. By the end of 6th century, Slavs had settled the eastern alps region." Slavs Migrations Wikipedia.

Summary of slav invasions and population replacement in South Balkans. Approximately beginning 500 AD.

Kingslav
05-07-17, 11:37
Bla bla bla...

I even made sure to say that Northern Slavs have mostly blue eyes and some of the highest percentages of blonde hair, and you still didn't get it. Oh well, a lesson for me not to waste time.


"Many Ukrainians are dark-haired, dark-eyed too". Wow, what a great point mate. I feel so stupid right now.

How about concentrating really hard on my post and read why its exactly in the place with almost 80-90% Slavic yDna haplogroups that the eyes are the darkest, and compare it to the surrounding areas. Unless you believe Albanians have lighter features than Slavs.

Then again, another issue rises. Did the Early South Slavs who belonged to I2a to guard the mountains while the R1a will take care of the lowlands? Seems like Early Slavs knew about genetics 15 centuries before us, or its simply an extreme coincidence that most of the I2a settled in Herzegovina?

Seems to me like they were being surrounded by incoming R1a.

But anyway, why I am wasting my time with the Albanian version of Kingslav.


The problem is that its not the small differences that create the complex of inferiority, it's the awareness of how others perceive them combined with a weak/childish personality which results in such people succumbing to the temptation of proving their worth to the people who despise them and don't even care about their arguments.

Such a waste of time and nerves if u ask me.

Many people hate us, so what?

They hate us for being mostly Muslim, so what? Our ancestors lived in a tough period where the Ottomans butchered us for 300 years, imposed high taxes, and sweetened the deal by allowing them to carry weapons and use horses if they convert. Case closed.

They hate us for spreading criminality in Europe or USA as if we are the only ones. Yeah we were screwed by the Western Powers having our lands given as gifts to our neighbours, then not supported by them in WW2 but rather given like trash to the Russians to do as they please, then following 45 years of harsh communist regime. What do you expect out of that, painters and ballerinas?

Long story short, this is who we r, a hot blooded nation with tendencies to violence trying to make our way to the top on our own at all costs and using all the methods we can.

Boasting in forums that we are Illyrians and E-V13, J2b2, R1b, etc. and that Serbs are newcomers won't change anything.

Im not one those snitches report. Dont call any my people trash. Any slavs, i havent attack you yet. You just had whiskey shot? What you said post above to me or fatherland make ZERO sense. Sounds like you slurring finish sentence.

DuPidh
05-07-17, 12:01
Many Ukrainians are dark-haired, dark-eyed too. Your point is invalid. There is no such thing as a "pure Slav".

Not counting the women with dyed fake hair color or old people with grey hair(most of them were brunet too), but these people(Ukrainians) are mainly brunet:

Ukrainians

https://img.rt.com/files/news/23/00/50/00/333donetsk-kharkov-ukraine-protest.n.jpg

https://gdb.rferl.org/C31CAFFB-F5EA-4E9A-8444-113A0B8DFF8D_cx0_cy1_cw77_mw1024_mh1024_r1_s.jpg

http://i2.cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/140125094002-03-ukraine-protests-0124-horizontal-large-gallery.jpg

https://img.rt.com/files/2016.05/original/573efe34c46188dd5c8b459d.jpg

https://img.rt.com/files/news/27/92/c0/00/9.jpg


These are crowd-pictures so there is no cherrypicking.
I have not seen the Ukrainian y dna, but what I have seen randomly people from Ukraine they also show Mongolic features. I mean Yeltsin type of people are common even in Ukraine

Kingslav
05-07-17, 12:22
I have not seen the Ukrainian y dna, but what I have seen randomly people from Ukraine they also show Mongolic features. I mean Yeltsin type of people are common even in Ukraine

East slavs for example Ukrainians and other Slavs mixed with Tatars (Turks) to a small degree. Tatars have drop of mongol admixture. I am showing very small 0.35% Mongol on wegene calculator.

Garrick
05-07-17, 13:59
This sample is from the 900s, so 250-350 years after Slavic expansions in Poland. But the 900s is definitely long before any Vlach immigration to Poland. So I2a-Din was in Medieval Poland before any Vlachs.

Tomenable, big reputation. You gave situation in 900-1000 AD, several centuries after Slavic expansion. And how LeBrok said it is expected.

We speak all the time in which tribe I-CTS10228 could emerge after bottleneck 300 BC and we gave a lot of opportunities. What some people here don’t understand is emergence of Early Slavs. They mentioned in 6th century AD. Who wants search (proto) Slavs before 6 century AD he or she is in the very slippery terrain. There are a lot of hypothesis and many are rejected. On the other hand German, Celtic, Sarmatian, Thracian tribes are pretty much documented.

From today's knowledge the best candidate for emergence of I-CTS10228 after bottleneck, 300 BC, is German tribe Bastarnae. Bastarnae migrated to the south-east and about after start of new era they were on the border of Thracians (Getae-Dacians) and Sarmatians. They mixed with both populations and Thracians and Bastarnae themselves brought this haplogroup to the Balkans much before arrival of Slavs. Sarmatians could bring this haplogroup to the north-east.

For Bastarnae is similar conclusion in other genealogy forums what means consensus is seen for this very exciting investigation about this European haplogroup. Of course there are other possibilities, science has last words, we will see investigations haplogroups in the time about 300 BC and somewhat after.

Unfortunately big problem for investigation of DNA skeletons of Bastarnae is that because they cremated bodies in high temperatures (900 degree C).

Bergin
05-07-17, 15:06
Tomenable, big reputation. You gave situation in 900-1000 AD, several centuries after Slavic expansion. And how LeBrok said it is expected.

We speak all the time in which tribe I-CTS10228 could emerge after bottleneck 300 BC and we gave a lot of opportunities. What some people here don’t understand is emergence of Early Slavs. They mentioned in 6th century AD. Who wants search (proto) Slavs before 6 century AD he or she is in the very slippery terrain. There are a lot of hypothesis and many are rejected. On the other hand German, Celtic, Sarmatian, Thracian tribes are pretty much documented.

From today's knowledge the best candidate for emergence of I-CTS10228 after bottleneck, 300 BC, is German tribe Bastarnae. Bastarnae migrated to the south-east and about after start of new era they were on the border of Thracians (Getae-Dacians) and Sarmatians. They mixed with both populations and Thracians and Bastarnae themselves brought this haplogroup to the Balkans much before arrival of Slavs. Sarmatians could bring this haplogroup to the north-east.

For Bastarnae is similar conclusion in other genealogy forums what means consensus is seen for this very exciting investigation about this European haplogroup. Of course there are other possibilities, science has last words, we will see investigations haplogroups in the time about 300 BC and somewhat after.

Unfortunately big problem for investigation of DNA skeletons of Bastarnae is that because they cremated bodies in high temperatures (900 degree C).


Garrick,
Your theory, even though it might sound logical, requires few layers of probing to become feasible.

1-Do realize that you will need genetic confirmation from the Bastarnae Y-DNA to link I2a-Din to them (your proposed origin).
2-You need proof of I2a-din among late Thracians (your proposed host).
3-You need proof of major Thraco - Bastarnae settlements/gene-pool in west balkans (your proposed vector).
4-You need proof of selective elimination of only Thracian haplogroups by the slavic expansion (your proposed clean start).


Maybe I am wrong but these four points are not proven.
(btw, I know very little of Bastarnae)

LeBrok
05-07-17, 16:18
I just read tomenable hypothesis of I2A-DIN expansion on anthrogenica.com and he has I2A-DIN expanding from Belarussia? The Polesian swamp marshes is home of I2A-DIN according tomenable where I2A-DIN is rarely found but this is birth place I2A-Din according tomenable. He even draw a map for you of his false hypothesis for Albanians to "salivate" over. I will post the link shortly. I really didnt want do this to a Pole, how can you push this agenda of yours and empower Albanians reading in this forum to believe your "theory"? You are R1B. I2A-Din not your haplogroup. Western spys. I don't want to do this to anyone but if you think you are on some kind of crusade against other ethnicities represented on Eupedia, you are on the wrong site. Don't demean any ethnicity, religion or nationality or their will be consequences till you change or you don't come here anymore.

Garrick
05-07-17, 16:20
Garrick,
Your theory, even though it might sound logical, requires few layers of probing to become feasible.

1-Do realize that you will need genetic confirmation from the Bastarnae Y-DNA to link I2a-Din to them (your proposed origin).
2-You need proof of I2a-din among late Thracians (your proposed host).
3-You need proof of major Thraco - Bastarnae settlements/gene-pool in west balkans (your proposed vector).
4-You need proof of selective elimination of only Thracian haplogroups by the slavic expansion (your proposed clean start).


Maybe I am wrong but these four points are not proven.
(btw, I know very little of Bastarnae)

It is not my theory. You can read other genealogy forums, much before than in this thread. And here Sile introduced. We investigated different tribes.

There are alternatives. But German tribe Bastarnae give logic answer, and it is possible scenario.

If someone reads carefully there are four theories: Thracian, Illyrian, German and Slavic. And Illyrian theory is rejected as implausible. Is is not impossible that a fifth theory appear.

What is very likely that this haplogoup existed in genetic fund Thracians (Getae-Dacians) in today's Romania and Balkans before Slavic expansion in 6th century. If this is correct than Bastarnae theory gets in importance, they mixed with Thracians (and Sarmatians). Surely there will be investigations of YDNA for these periods and territories.

Even Bastarnae themselves three (documented) times entered deep into Balkans.

About Slavic theory, there are a lot of problems. One of problems is time period, which and where Slavs existed 300 BC. Objectively Slavs mentioned in 6th century AD. But of course we can see different cultures in Eastern Europe/Western Russia before 6 century AD. Unfortunately scientists have no consensus whether some of them could be proto-Slavic. It is very slippery terrain. Ethnogenesis of Slavs is very complex.

After all, judging, I-CTS10228 very hard can be originally Slavic marker, in sense that it emerged somewhere among Slavs 300 BC after bottleneck. It is not plausible. Of course, no one challenges its later expansion among the Slavs.

LeBrok
05-07-17, 16:27
Summary of slav invasions and population replacement in South Balkans. Approximately beginning 500 AD.There was no population replacement in Balkans during Slavic expansion. There was population addition. This is not an opinion but a fact written into genetics of Balkan people. We can see much bigger population addition in countries which speak Slavic languages and Romania, and much less addition in Greece and Albania.
Try to be less emotional and more rational.

Bergin
05-07-17, 16:40
It is not my theory. You can read other genealogy forums, much before than in this thread. And here Sile introduced. We investigated different tribes.

There are alternatives. But German tribe Bastarnae give logic answer, and it is possible scenario.

If someone reads carefully there are four theories: Thracian, Illyrian, German and Slavic. And Illyrian theory is rejected as implausible. Is is not impossible that a fifth theory appear.

What is very likely that this haplogoup existed in genetic fund Thracians (Getae-Dacians) in today's Romania and Balkans before Slavic expansion in 6th century. If this is correct than Bastarnae theory gets in importance, they mixed with Thracians (and Sarmatians). Surely there will be investigations of YDNA for these periods and territories.

Even Bastarnae themselves three (documented) times entered deep into Balkans.

About Slavic theory, there are a lot of problems. One of problems is time period, which and where Slavs existed 300 BC. Objectively Slavs mentioned in 6th century AD. But of course we can see different cultures in Eastern Europe/Western Russia before 6 century AD. Unfortunately scientists have no consensus whether some of them could be proto-Slavic. It is very slippery terrain. Ethnogenesis of Slavs is very complex.

After all, judging, I-CTS10228 very hard can be originally Slavic marker, in sense that it emerged somewhere among Slavs 300 BC after bottleneck. It is not plausible, according time and geography. Of course, no one challenges its later expansion among the Slavs.


Garrick, I am neither pro or against your conjecture.

I am just saying that is pretty hard to confirm it with the actual state of the data, that is all.

Genetic claims require genetic facts,
which for the moment are lacking.

Kingslav
05-07-17, 22:48
There was no population replacement in Balkans during Slavic expansion. There was population addition. This is not an opinion but a fact written into genetics of Balkan people. We can see much bigger population addition in countries which speak Slavic languages and Romania, and much less addition in Greece and Albania.
Try to be less emotional and more rational.

I agree 100% there was a population addition of Slavic genes into South Balkan people. And as you said this is not an opinion but a fact written into genetics of Balkan people. Do I agree there wasn't some kind of population replacement here? No. I don't agree with your comment. As was stated in Slav Migrations paper these were invasive expansions.

Bergin
05-07-17, 23:40
There was no population replacement in Balkans during Slavic expansion. There was population addition. This is not an opinion but a fact written into genetics of Balkan people. We can see much bigger population addition in countries which speak Slavic languages and Romania, and much less addition in Greece and Albania.
Try to be less emotional and more rational.

LeBrok, would you mind explaining a bit more in detail, sounds pretty relevant.

LeBrok
05-07-17, 23:51
LeBrok, would you mind explaining a bit more in detail, sounds pretty relevant.
It is shown in level of admixtures and genetic distances. For example, if Slavs expanded from Belarus or Ukraine and replaced all inhabitants of balkans, they new inhabitants of Balkans would look exactly like Belarusians or Ukrainians and plot exactly in the same place on PCA. As we know, it is not the case, therefore population replacement didn't happen. We also know that genomes of Balkan Slavs are not identical from Croatia to Bulgaria, therefore not pointing to South Slavs replacing all inhabitants of the area either.

LeBrok
06-07-17, 00:02
I agree 100% there was a population addition of Slavic genes into South Balkan people. And as you said this is not an opinion but a fact written into genetics of Balkan people. Do I agree there wasn't some kind of population replacement here? No. I don't agree with your comment. As was stated in Slav Migratations paper these were invasive expansions.Do you have a split personality syndrome or something? Both can't be right, unless you mean "substantial change of population" instead of replacement. Technically replacement should mean old population was gone and new population came to live.

Bergin
06-07-17, 00:23
It is shown in level of admixtures and genetic distances. For example, if Slavs expanded from Belarus or Ukraine and replaced all inhabitants of balkans, they new inhabitants of Balkans would look exactly like Belarusians or Ukrainians and plot exactly in the same place on PCA. As we know, it is not the case, therefore population replacement didn't happen. We also know that genomes of Balkan Slavs are not identical from Croatia to Bulgaria, therefore not pointing to South Slavs replacing all inhabitants of the area either.

I see, makes sense.
Just how can one exclude first replacement and secondly mixture with the neighbors?
So is it a common assumption that the PCA of the balkan has been only weakly perturbed in the last millenia?

Kingslav
06-07-17, 01:00
Tomenable, big reputation. You gave situation in 900-1000 AD, several centuries after Slavic expansion. And how LeBrok said it is expected.

We speak all the time in which tribe I-CTS10228 could emerge after bottleneck 300 BC and we gave a lot of opportunities. What some people here don’t understand is emergence of Early Slavs. They mentioned in 6th century AD. Who wants search (proto) Slavs before 6 century AD he or she is in the very slippery terrain. There are a lot of hypothesis and many are rejected. On the other hand German, Celtic, Sarmatian, Thracian tribes are pretty much documented.

From today's knowledge the best candidate for emergence of I-CTS10228 after bottleneck, 300 BC, is German tribe Bastarnae. Bastarnae migrated to the south-east and about after start of new era they were on the border of Thracians (Getae-Dacians) and Sarmatians. They mixed with both populations and Thracians and Bastarnae themselves brought this haplogroup to the Balkans much before arrival of Slavs. Sarmatians could bring this haplogroup to the north-east.

For Bastarnae is similar conclusion in other genealogy forums what means consensus is seen for this very exciting investigation about this European haplogroup. Of course there are other possibilities, science has last words, we will see investigations haplogroups in the time about 300 BC and somewhat after.

Unfortunately big problem for investigation of DNA skeletons of Bastarnae is that because they cremated bodies in high temperatures (900 degree C).

What Lebrok said is expected. He is correct I agree with Garrick and Lebrok. Slavic expansions happened East-West-South. Ofcourse there is population replacement in Poland from ancient times. What needs to be understood by outsiders, Poland was not always where it is located now. There was event "WW2" displaced many Poles from their original conquered territory of 17th Century Polish Commonwealth, I am talking about places like Western Ukraine, Northern Romania, Moldova, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia, etc all belong to Poland where Poles and others lived and thrived for centuries in all these places I have listed. This was Polish homeland. In late 18th century Poland was ripped apart literally by new powers Russia, Austro-Hungary, Prussia. My ancestors didn't move anywhere despite this new government, they remained in same place even through changed borders remained and kept the "Polish Tradition" even after they technically didn't have our own homeland until 1918 for over 100 years.

Garrick, Tomenable big reputation? His theory is faulty with I2A-DIN expanding from Polesian swamp marshes in Belarus. I might have misunderstood your statement so correct me if I am wrong, what does reputation have to do with reality, or in correct terms to this discussion the expansion of I2A-DIN? If you decide to dive into these forums you should know exactly what is being discussed and not just throw around misleading hypothesis because this is curving discussion in wrong direction, not mention offended to people of this genetic by throwing out there unfounded statements. I mean you will not see me on the R1B thread talking about hypothesis because that is not my cup of tea. My goal is not intimidate anyone on here, everyone has right voice opinion on here to help contribute the missing puzzle pieces of this elaborate genetics discussion we are having. All I'm saying is post with some care. Meaning talk about things you know about. And don't spam. Any knowledge is welcome and sure there will be disagreements as comes with this territory but we can make effort to be civil about instead of constant spamming.

Garrick, my next point is yes you are right Slavs emerged as a known group around 500 AD. In a historical writings context. At this point in time they had entire army that ravaged Balkans. These Slavs had been interbreeding for centuries prior to 500 AD, it takes generations to create army of humans. I really don't want joke Slavs were not poofed out of magic in 500 AD nor were they dropped from mysterious UFO at approximate location of Danube lol. They were in these areas long time before that and existed, lived and yes we Slavs as you Garrick have done excellent job explaining with references are some sort combination of the groups living around the Black Sea ( Thracians, Sarmatians, Bastarnae, etc ) what is exact combination? I don't know but I certainly can narrow down to certain groups that we are and I can weed out the the groups the we definitely aren't. Some proof can be found on gedmatch calculators when you look at my sample or any other strong Modern East European samples. Now, I have reason to believe some of the things about I2A-DIN due to the research and it simply being my own haplogroup which I have studied. I want to thank Garrick for your extensive posts about Bastarnae tribe. You have opened my eyes to some knowledge about this tribe helping put more pieces of puzzle together that's what we all here for I mean most of us lol. I must admit you are putting far too much interest issues like TMRCA, Slavs not being recorded in history until 6th Century being slippery terrain, I will say again Garrick we are mix of these tribes and these tribes are somewhat Slavic in ancient perspective. Slavs didn't show up with entire army in 500 AD, we were interbreeding for centuries and your always discussing this 2300 years old theory of I2A-DIN which we need to remember is still a "theory" not a solid proof yet. Even we take this theory for truth it makes sense with migrations of Sarmatians, Scythians around exact time of 2300 years that I2A-DIN emerged.

Kingslav
06-07-17, 01:40
Do you have a split personality syndrome or something? Both can't be right, unless you mean "substantial change of population" instead of replacement. Technically replacement should mean old population was gone and new population came to live.

I dont have anything you mention in post above. I was trying to use less demeaning word choice and not be offensive. But you made me do it with this post so now I must clarify. There was partial replacement of Balkans population. This is evident in modern South-Balkanite showing Slavic DNA and yes this includes Albanians and to slightly less extent even Greeks. Modern Balkanites show Slavic DNA. They were conquered by Slavs to their dislike. Case closed. There was a "replacement", this wasnt friendly gathering of Slavs like you making seem, this was war that consequenced with partial population replacement. You twisted my words and then accused me of brain condition.

Garrick
06-07-17, 01:53
What Lebrok said is expected. He is correct I agree with Garrick and Lebrok. Slavic expansions happened East-West-South. Ofcourse there is population replacement in Poland from ancient times. What needs to be understood by outsiders, Poland was not always where it is located now. There was event "WW2" displaced many Poles from their original conquered territory of 17th Century Polish Commonwealth, I am talking about places like Western Ukraine, Northern Romania, Moldova, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia, etc all belong to Poland where Poles and others lived and thrived for centuries in all these places I have listed. This was Polish homeland. In late 18th century Poland was ripped apart literally by new powers Russia, Austro-Hungary, Prussia. My ancestors didn't move anywhere despite this new government, they remained in same place even through changed borders remained and kept the "Polish Tradition" even after they technically didn't have our own homeland until 1918 for over 100 years.

Garrick, Tomenable big reputation? His theory is faulty with I2A-DIN expanding from Polesian swamp marshes in Belarus. I might have misunderstood your statement so correct me if I am wrong, what does reputation have to do with reality, or in correct terms to this discussion the expansion of I2A-DIN? If you decide to dive into these forums you should know exactly what is being discussed and not just throw around misleading hypothesis because this is curving discussion in wrong direction, not mention offended to people of this genetic by throwing out there unfounded statements. I mean you will not see me on the R1B thread talking about hypothesis because that is not my cup of tea. My goal is not intimidate anyone on here, everyone has right voice opinion on here to help contribute the missing puzzle pieces of this elaborate genetics discussion we are having. All I'm saying is post with some care. Meaning talk about things you know about. And don't spam. Any knowledge is welcome and sure there will be disagreements as comes with this territory but we can make effort to be civil about instead of constant spamming.

Garrick, my next point is yes you are right Slavs emerged as a known group around 500 AD. In a historical writings context. At this point in time they had entire army that ravaged Balkans. These Slavs had been interbreeding for centuries prior to 500 AD, it takes generations to create army of humans. I really don't want joke Slavs were not poofed out of magic in 500 AD nor were they dropped from mysterious UFO at approximate location of Danube lol. They were in these areas long time before that and existed, lived and yes we Slavs as you Garrick have done excellent job explaining with references are some sort combination of the groups living around the Black Sea ( Thracians, Sarmatians, Bastarnae, etc ) what is exact combination? I don't know but I certainly can narrow down to certain groups that we are and I can weed out the the groups the we definitely aren't. Some proof can be found on gedmatch calculators when you look at my sample or any other strong Modern East European samples. Now, I have reason to believe some of the things about I2A-DIN due to the research and it simply being my own haplogroup which I have studied. I want to thank Garrick for your extensive posts about Bastarnae tribe. You have opened my eyes to some knowledge about this tribe helping put more pieces of puzzle together that's what we all here for I mean most of us lol. I must admit you are putting far too much interest issues like TMRCA, Slavs not being recorded in history until 6th Century being slippery terrain, I will say again Garrick we are mix of these tribes and these tribes are somewhat Slavic in ancient perspective. Slavs didn't show up with entire army in 500 AD, we were interbreeding for centuries and your always discussing this 2300 years old theory of I2A-DIN which we need to remember is still a "theory" not a solid proof yet. Even we take this theory for truth it makes sense with migrations of Sarmatians, Scythians around exact time of 2300 years that I2A-DIN emerged.

Kingslav
I gave him reputation because he refreshed the thread with new data, always appreciate when someone put something useful.

Nobody mentioned his theory about Polesia. Yes I read it. And I read more different scenarios, for example one of them I-CTS10228 or his older clades moved from Scotland via Sweden, via Baltic shore till Polesia. Somewhere (Sweden?) I-CTS10228 emerged. Etc.

Here we discussed another scenario, and I think it is more plausible. But it is good that more assumptions exist, people can see different views about this exciting life of haplogoup which moved from Western Europe or Northern Europe (Scandinavia) toward East, barely survived in longer period and after bottleneck emerged and quickly spread. It is story about destiny and human survival and expansion.

About ethnogenesis of Slavs I wrote that it is very complex issue, a lot of scientists from many sciences tried to put together a piece of the truth, and there are many different views and theories, some of them are mutualy exclusive. Some discutants here, unfortunately, don't know about matter, and try to spam or stifle thread, some of them mention aliens or wonder how many of the Slavs suddenly got out of nowhere, it is completely unnecessary and useless (if they think will have some benefit, no). But it is linked with politics what I would not about it therefore I try turn such intentions in fun.

Here in Eupedia there are some threads about Slavs but definitely it is time that someone open new thread, but seriously, to be very good prepared and know subject. Unfortunately some Slavs lead trivial discussions and went nowhere. There is another approach, more easy, opening thread based on some scientific paper about Slavs, this can be incentive to develop an interesting discussion, but only if members are constructive, if strong destruction emerge, the thread will go wrong.

LeBrok
06-07-17, 03:27
I dont have anything you mention in post above. I was trying to use less demeaning word choice and not be offensive. But you made me do it with this post so now I must clarify. There was partial replacement of Balkans population. This is evident in modern South-Balkanite showing Slavic DNA and yes this includes Albanians and to slightly less extent even Greeks. Modern Balkanites show Slavic DNA. They were conquered by Slavs to their dislike. Case closed. There was a "replacement", this wasnt friendly gathering of Slavs like you making seem, this was war that consequenced with partial population replacement. You twisted my words and then accused me of brain condition.
I have a feeling that your choice of terms describing Slavic expansion is meant to show some form of Slavic dominance and superiority. And I don't mean way back but in your heart and head now. It never leads to right conclusions and civil discussion.

Kingslav
06-07-17, 03:58
I have a feeling that your choice of terms describing Slavic expansion is meant to show some form of Slavic dominance and superiority. And I don't mean way back but in your heart and head now. It never leads to right conclusions and civil discussion.

Slavic superiority no I don't believe in such thing I am not Hitler to be speaking of "Master-Races" as no such thing exists. "Dominance", yes now we are talking. With over 360 million people strong, Slavs are the largest ethnic-linguistic group in all of Europe showing a certain "Dominance" in this region of the world. This is all facts that you are clearly not amused by. However, this is your problem not mine.

LeBrok
06-07-17, 04:05
Slavic superiority no I don't believe in such thing I am not Hitler to be speaking of "Master-Races" as no such thing exists. "Dominance", yes now we are talking. With over 360 million people strong, Slavs are the largest ethnic-linguistic group in all of Europe showing a certain "Dominance" in this region of the world. This is all facts that you are clearly not amused by. However, this is your problem not mine.Keep going along with your sucky attitude and it will be your problem soon.

Milan.M
06-07-17, 09:30
[email protected] here is some thread you might be interested http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32270-Four-questions-for-those-who-still-believe-in-prehistoric-Slavs-and-other-fairy-tales

Garrick
06-07-17, 13:34
[email protected] here is some thread you might be interested http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32270-Four-questions-for-those-who-still-believe-in-prehistoric-Slavs-and-other-fairy-tales

No, I didn't think about it, and that you do not misunderstand me, I didn't not think about any of the threads open in Eupedia about the Slavs. I thought about something new, I found one interesting scientific paper of Polish scientists. It is not too demanding, and in some things is probably wrong because authors are not from the field of genetic genealogy, but anyway it is interesting to open of debate.

Milan.M
06-07-17, 13:49
Post it then.. I hope is not again the Bastarnae and I2a din.That one was from Florin Curta,archeologist and historian for south east Europe.

Garrick
06-07-17, 15:34
Post it then.. I hope is not again the Bastarnae and I2a din.That one was from Florin Curta,archeologist and historian for south east Europe.

No, nothing to do with I-CTS10228. And Curta is not mentioned. It is about R1a, warriors and nobility related to Poland.

Tomenable
06-07-17, 21:17
I really didnt want do this to a Pole, how can you push this agenda of yours and empower Albanians reading in this forum to believe your "theory"? You are R1B. I2A-Din not your haplogroup. Western spys.

How did you call me?! A Western spy?! :annoyed:

No, I'm not a Western spy. The Piast dynasty were R1b. Real Kingslavs were R1b, not I2a-Din: :smile:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIjKijhv1OU

MOESAN
06-07-17, 22:12
Many Ukrainians are dark-haired, dark-eyed too. Your point is invalid. There is no such thing as a "pure Slav".

Not counting the women with dyed fake hair color or old people with grey hair(most of them were brunet too), but these people(Ukrainians) are mainly brunet:

Ukrainians

https://img.rt.com/files/news/23/00/50/00/333donetsk-kharkov-ukraine-protest.n.jpg

https://gdb.rferl.org/C31CAFFB-F5EA-4E9A-8444-113A0B8DFF8D_cx0_cy1_cw77_mw1024_mh1024_r1_s.jpg

http://i2.cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/140125094002-03-ukraine-protests-0124-horizontal-large-gallery.jpg

https://img.rt.com/files/2016.05/original/573efe34c46188dd5c8b459d.jpg

https://img.rt.com/files/news/27/92/c0/00/9.jpg


These are crowd-pictures so there is no cherrypicking.

It would be off topic, otherwise I would have answered you about your "pigmentation concepts" - all the way, Uraina is vaste and subergional differences exist, evidently -

Garrick
06-07-17, 22:34
Garrick, I am neither pro or against your conjecture. I am just saying that is pretty hard to confirm it with the actual state of the data, that is all. Genetic claims require genetic facts, which for the moment are lacking. Yes, Russian scientist in correspondence confirmed me that I-CTS10228 was part of genetic fund of Thracians/Dacians before Slavs. Russian science has very solid foundations for it. Although investigations didn't do, it will be found in investigations. Somewhere in Dacia, Moesia, Dardania etc before 6th century this haplogroup will be found. Therefore all who write whole haplogroup I-CTS10228 as I2a-Slav write stupidity.

When science definitely find and confirm this, it means people who lived in the Dacia or as Free Dacian tribes (todays Romanians, Moldavians, Tosks etc) at least in one part they didn't acquire this haplogroup from Slavs. It is same for part of I-CTS10228 population of today's Bulgarians, Serbs etc.

Bergin
07-07-17, 00:18
Yes, Russian scientist in correspondence confirmed me that I-CTS10228 was part of genetic fund of Thracians/Dacians before Slavs. Russian science has very solid foundations for it. Although investigations didn't do, it will be found in investigations. Somewhere in Dacia, Moesia, Dardania etc before 6th century this haplogroup will be found. Therefore all who write whole haplogroup I-CTS10228 as I2a-Slav write stupidity.

When science definitely find and confirm this, it means people who lived in the Dacia or as Free Dacian tribes (todays Romanians, Moldavians, Tosks etc) at least in one part they didn't acquire this haplogroup from Slavs. It is same for part of I-CTS10228 population of today's Bulgarians, Serbs etc.

The evidence you are mentioning regarding this Russian scientist I suppose will be published soon.
If so, such paper will probably be discussed and interpreted in depth in the forum.

In meantime, the published works regarding ancient Thracians DNA don't show any evidence of I2a-din (or direct ancestor). Do you agree?

Kingslav
07-07-17, 01:10
How did you call me?! A Western spy?! :annoyed:

No, I'm not a Western spy. The Piast dynasty were R1b. Real Kingslavs were R1b, not I2a-Din: :smile:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIjKijhv1OU

Understand this, R1B was and always will be a minority group in Slavic lands as it was RAVAGED towards the west direction many times in the history. I2A-DIN and R1A is dominant lineages in Slavic lands. Can a Slav be R1B? Sure we will accept them but they are still MINORITY. Your attempt to connect the dynasty of Polish Kings to R1B is unfounded. Ancient populations haplogroups show much differences and diversity to modern populations and this is TRUE not only in Poland but in ALL countries and every historian knows this. The Romanov dynasty in Russia was believed to be R1B does this make all Russians R1B? No. Once again, Walery Jan Slawek 19th Prime Minister of Poland is my GREAT UNCLE and I can assure you he was NOT an R1B. I think bringing Boris the Slav and Youtube Vlogger into this might have something to do with being minority Slav, I could be wrong but I doubt it. - Kingslav

Fatherland
07-07-17, 02:27
Haplo-supremacists, this is a laughing matter.

Kingslav
07-07-17, 04:14
During the 18th, 19th and part of 20th centuries when Russia, Austro-Hungary, Prussia divided Polish Commonwealth among their "ambitious" selves, they tried refer to my ancestors living south of Carpathian Mountains (Podkarpackie) as RUSYNS or RUTHENIANS. Here is some info on Rusyns.

" Their language, called Rusyn or Ruthenian, is a variety of East Slavic and is spoken in Lemko, Hutsul, Boyko/Bojkian, Sjan, and Transcarpathian/Verchovyna dialects.

Their traditional religions for centuries have been Eastern Orthodoxy and Greek Catholicism.

It's believed that the Rusyns descend from multiple old tribes including White Croats, Rus', and Vlachs.

It is interesting to add that according to some American documents from the beginning of 20th century there were about 100,000 immigrants to the US born around Kraków (Southern Poland) who declared themselves to be Bielo-Chorvats, i.e. White Croats by nationality."

Among Rusyn members of the "Carpatho-Rusyn Heritage DNA Project", these are among the Y-DNA haplogroups:

• E-L117 from some with ancestors from Slovakia and Ukraine,
• E-L142 from some with ancestors from Ukraine and Poland,
• E-L542 from some with ancestors from Ukraine, Poland, and Slovakia,
• I-M170 from some with ancestors from Ukraine and Slovakia,
• I-P37 from some with ancestors from Ukraine, Poland, and Slovakia,
• R-M198 from some with ancestors from Slovakia,
• R-M269 from some with ancestors from Slovakia and Poland,
• R-M512 from some with ancestors from Slovakia, Czechia, Poland, and Ukraine,
• R-Z283 from some with ancestors from Slovakia and Ukraine,
• R-SRY10831 from some with ancestors from Ukraine and Poland,
• and I-CTS10228, R-Z280, and several more.

- Rusyn Genetics, Khazaria.com

My ancestors descended from Vlachs which is opposing Tomenable earlier statement that Poles do not descend from Vlachs. Also no R1B was found among these southern POLISH/ UKRAINIANS. Even some haplogroup E was found but definitely no R1B here.

LeBrok
07-07-17, 05:26
It is interesting to add that according to some American documents from the beginning of 20th century there were about 100,000 immigrants to the US born around Kraków (Southern Poland) who declared themselves to be Bielo-Chorvats, i.e. White Croats by nationality."
This is because Austro-Hungarian empire called conquered parts of Poland, White Croatia. According to A-H policy they didn't conquer Poland, but they liberated White Croats from polish occupation. This was their political game, that's all. Before this there was no polish historical sources about White Croat minority in Poland. A-Hs created White Croats in Poland. Polish people from Krakow had in their A-H documents written White Croats instead of Polish ethnicity. This document was presented to emigration authorities in NY city at their arrival. That's why they wrote White Croats as their ethnicity and not Polish. Most emigrants didn't speak any English, so they couldn't correct this mistake.
So many people are confused about this now.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/Railway_map_Austria-Hungary.png/1280px-Railway_map_Austria-Hungary.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria-Hungary#/media/File:Railway_map_Austria-Hungary.png


My ancestors descended from Vlachs which is opposing Tomenable earlier statement that Poles do not descend from Vlachs. Also no R1B was found among these POLISH/ UKRAINIANS. Even some haplogroup E was found but definitely no R1B here.
Maybe so, but they couldn't be Slavs. Vlach communities spoke Roman language, or form of it like Romanians (Walachia). All Slavs called Roman speaking communities Wlochy (Vlachy). All Slavs still call Italy, Wlochy. Vlachs were Roman (pig latin) speaking, not Slavic.

Kingslav
07-07-17, 05:28
This sample is from the 900s, so 250-350 years after Slavic expansions in Poland. But the 900s is definitely long before any Vlach immigration to Poland. So I2a-Din was in Medieval Poland before any Vlachs.

Can you elaborate more on your theory of I2A-DIN emerging from Polesian swamp marshes? The 1 you posted earlier anthrogenica.com with hand-drawn map very intriguing theory also second part of my question is how did Rusyns (my ancestors) descend from Vlachs if there was no Vlachs in medieval Poland according to your observations? Thanks - Kingslav :)

Fire Haired14
07-07-17, 05:29
Yes, Russian scientist in correspondence confirmed me that I-CTS10228 was part of genetic fund of Thracians/Dacians before Slavs.

Did these Russians scientist take DNA from Thracian/Dacian bones?

LeBrok
07-07-17, 05:36
Did these Russians scientist take DNA from Thracian/Dacian bones?
I find this unlikely. Why would concentrate on Thracian and Dacians from all the sites? Besides, they have their own vast territory to genetically survey, and funds are very limited.

Fire Haired14
07-07-17, 05:39
Many Ukrainians are dark-haired, dark-eyed too. Your point is invalid. There is no such thing as a "pure Slav".

Not counting the women with dyed fake hair color or old people with grey hair(most of them were brunet too), but these people(Ukrainians) are mainly brunet:

These are crowd-pictures so there is no cherrypicking.

Most of those Ukrainians looks like they could be Vladimir Putin's brother, they definitely fit the Eastern European sterotype. The president of Poland looks so similar he could be Vladimir Putin's brother as well. In Wisconsin, I vacation there in the summer, there's lots of Polish immigrants and lots of them also have this typical Slavic look. Even though they have the same pigmentation as British-German-Swedish Americans it is easy to recognize who is a Polish immigrant. I see it in a lot of Yugoslavs in my neighborhood as well.

That interests me because it indicates EEF-WHG-Steppe stuff can't explain everything, there could Slavic-specific traits that people in Ireland with a similar EEF-WHG-Steppe makeup don't share.

Kingslav
07-07-17, 05:58
This is because Austro-Hungarian empire called conquered parts of Poland, White Croatia. According to A-H policy they didn't conquer Poland, but they liberated White Croats from polish occupation. This was their political game, that's all. Before this there was no polish historical sources about White Croat minority in Poland. A-Hs created White Croats in Poland. Polish people from Krakow had in their A-H documents written White Croats instead of Polish ethnicity. This document was presented to emigration authorities in NY city at their arrival. That's why they wrote White Croats as their ethnicity and not Polish. Most emigrants didn't speak any English, so they couldn't correct this mistake.
So many people are confused about this now.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/Railway_map_Austria-Hungary.png/1280px-Railway_map_Austria-Hungary.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria-Hungary#/media/File:Railway_map_Austria-Hungary.png


Maybe so, but they couldn't be Slavs. Vlach communities spoke Roman language, or form of it like Romanians (Walachia). All Slavs called Roman speaking communities Wlochy (Vlachy). All Slavs still call Italy, Wlochy. Vlachs were Roman (pig latin) speaking, not Slavic.

My first language Polish I know what means Wloch, it refers to modern Italians but is loosely thrown term that also refers to Wlosi root word of HAIR in my language, which we use to refer any dark haired people as slang. When I discussed with my father regarding his grandfather my greatgrandfather who lived in Bukovina and identified as Bulgarian, my father referred to him being Wloch which means "dark and hairy". Also White Croats defended southern border of Poland for centuries and never moved from this place despite bloodshed. They are I2A-DIN SLAVS. R1B is minority group in slavic lands I will repeat. Issue of Vlachs is issue of I2A-DIN some consider Slavic others not. This thread we talk about this issue. But the VLACHS I descend from identify as SLAVS and nothing else.

LABERIA
07-07-17, 06:00
This Russian scientist, have a name?

Kingslav
07-07-17, 06:17
Another question, if these White Croats my grandfather who was born Bukovina, Romania never identify Polish why would they fight for Poland during WW2 and consequentially take refuge in Southern Poland when the new borders were drawn 1945? Polish person is mixed-slavic person, check my oracle the answers are infront of you. If White-Croats wasnt Polish as you are claiming maybe in profile I would have flag Croatia, or Romania maybe Bulgaria, but that clearly not the scenario here I was born POLE.

LeBrok
07-07-17, 06:25
My first language Polish I know what means Wloch, it refers to modern Italians but is loosely thrown term that also refers to Wlosi root word of HAIR in my language, which we use to refer any dark haired people as slang. When I discussed with my father regarding his grandfather my greatgrandfather who lived in Bukovina and identified as Bulgarian, my father referred to him being Wloch which means "dark and hairy".Maybe this is how you understood your father. Your expalanation is at least a bit confusing. Is you father saying that your grandfather is Wloch, because of him being dark and hairy or was he from real Vlach community? I never heard any polish person referring to a brunet, even a hairy one, as wloch in my life. And I'm polish.
Maybe he was saining, Wlochaty and not Wloch?


Also White Croats defended southern border of Poland for centuries and never moved from this place despite bloodshed. Can you refer us to polish historical source.

Fatherland
07-07-17, 06:28
This Russian scientist, have a name?
He never found anything that Garrick attempts to project about. Don't let him confuse you or other folks.

LeBrok
07-07-17, 06:35
Another question, if these White Croats my grandfather who was born Bukovina, Romania never identify Polish why would they fight for Poland during WW2 and consequentially take refuge in Southern Poland when the new borders were drawn 1945? Polish person is mixed-slavic person, check my oracle the answers are infront of you. If White-Croats wasnt Polish as you are claiming maybe in profile I would have flag Croatia, or Romania maybe Bulgaria, but that clearly not the scenario here I was born POLE.Maybe you didn't understand the point, because I said Polish people in A-H empire. I should have said, all people (or almost all) who lived on former Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth land, under Austro-Hungarian jurisdiction were called White Chroats by Austro-Hungarian government.

Kingslav
07-07-17, 06:37
I have uncle non blood relation but intermarriage, he is smaller stature guy maybe 5’6 dark moustache and dark tan, everyone in family refers to him WLOCH as friendly joke meaning Italian, nonetheless he is Polish. Wloch is oftenly thrown around term in my family and other southern Poles I know. Personally I cant speak for R1B I dont really know any. Maybe you make Baltic jokes Im not sure.

Leka
07-07-17, 06:49
This Russian scientist, have a name?

Not at the moment, he is however Garric's bed buddy from the looks of it that 'leaks' on his ear, here and there, secrets of his futuristic projects. I say he is solid, we should trust him.

LABERIA
07-07-17, 06:51
He never found anything that Garrick attempts to project about. Don't let him confuse you or other folks.

My question was a contribution exactly in this direction. He(Garrick) pretend that he have this exchange of emails with this Russian scientist. First of all it's important to know who is this scientist. I am not saying that this person exist or not, but we want to know who is him, his academic background, etc. A name.

Kingslav
07-07-17, 07:09
Most of those Ukrainians looks like they could be Vladimir Putin's brother, they definitely fit the Eastern European sterotype. The president of Poland looks so similar he could be Vladimir Putin's brother as well. In Wisconsin, I vacation there in the summer, there's lots of Polish immigrants and lots of them also have this typical Slavic look. Even though they have the same pigmentation as British-German-Swedish Americans it is easy to recognize who is a Polish immigrant. I see it in a lot of Yugoslavs in my neighborhood as well.

That interests me because it indicates EEF-WHG-Steppe stuff can't explain everything, there could Slavic-specific traits that people in Ireland with a similar EEF-WHG-Steppe makeup don't share.

We dont have pigmentation of British-German-Swedish lol maybe odd Baltic mixed Ukrainian or eastern Ukrainian does, it is summer now and sorry my skin is not white nor red. Probably shouldnt admit but all my life I get mistaken for Albanian 1st choice by some people to be honest. Now, lets pretend I didnt mention that dilemma. Moving on...

LABERIA
07-07-17, 07:15
Not at the moment, he is however Garric's bed buddy from the looks of it that 'leaks' on his ear, here and there, secrets of his futurustic projects. I say he is solid, we should trust him.

Ku je o Drenicë. Long time that i don't see you my friend.

Milan.M
07-07-17, 08:28
During the 18th, 19th and part of 20th centuries when Russia, Austro-Hungary, Prussia divided Polish Commonwealth among their "ambitious" selves, they tried refer to my ancestors living south of Carpathian Mountains (Podkarpackie) as RUSYNS or RUTHENIANS. Here is some info on Rusyns.

" Their language, called Rusyn or Ruthenian, is a variety of East Slavic and is spoken in Lemko, Hutsul, Boyko/Bojkian, Sjan, and Transcarpathian/Verchovyna dialects.

Their traditional religions for centuries have been Eastern Orthodoxy and Greek Catholicism.

It's believed that the Rusyns descend from multiple old tribes including White Croats, Rus', and Vlachs.

It is interesting to add that according to some American documents from the beginning of 20th century there were about 100,000 immigrants to the US born around Kraków (Southern Poland) who declared themselves to be Bielo-Chorvats, i.e. White Croats by nationality."

Among Rusyn members of the "Carpatho-Rusyn Heritage DNA Project", these are among the Y-DNA haplogroups:

• E-L117 from some with ancestors from Slovakia and Ukraine,
• E-L142 from some with ancestors from Ukraine and Poland,
• E-L542 from some with ancestors from Ukraine, Poland, and Slovakia,
• I-M170 from some with ancestors from Ukraine and Slovakia,
• I-P37 from some with ancestors from Ukraine, Poland, and Slovakia,
• R-M198 from some with ancestors from Slovakia,
• R-M269 from some with ancestors from Slovakia and Poland,
• R-M512 from some with ancestors from Slovakia, Czechia, Poland, and Ukraine,
• R-Z283 from some with ancestors from Slovakia and Ukraine,
• R-SRY10831 from some with ancestors from Ukraine and Poland,
• and I-CTS10228, R-Z280, and several more.

- Rusyn Genetics, Khazaria.com

My ancestors descended from Vlachs which is opposing Tomenable earlier statement that Poles do not descend from Vlachs. Also no R1B was found among these southern POLISH/ UKRAINIANS. Even some haplogroup E was found but definitely no R1B here.
I didn't knew you are from that region Kingslav,very interesting.I know some other people with similar ancestry like yours,maybe coincidence or not,they are all emotionaly somehow "attached" to South Slavs.Thank you.
I was discussing the genetics of the Hutsuls,Boykos and Lemkos couple of times in this forum but i did not had much information about it but from other people sayings i knew they are "south-slavic" shifted or similar.

That's the old Getae land,so your statements were right all along,from that region and Danube basin our ancestors used to fight the Roman empire until their defeat.
To Galicia,Dniester or Tyras were living Tyragetae sub tribe of the Getae.Old name of the Sclavenes (Slavs) acording to ancient authors.

You are Kingslav,Tomenable Kingwend hehe


The first ruler of the Piasts Mieszko was "Dagome, King of the Wends"
Real Kingwends were majority R1a or R1b?

Kingslav
07-07-17, 09:15
I didn't knew you are from that region Kingslav,very interesting.I know some other people with similar ancestry like yours,maybe coincidence or not,they are all emotionaly somehow "attached" to South Slavs.Thank you.
I was discussing the genetics of the Hutsuls,Boykos and Lemkos couple of times in this forum but i did not had much information about it but from other people sayings i knew they are "south-slavic" shifted or similar.

That's the old Getae land,so your statements were right all along,from that region and Danube basin our ancestors used to fight the Roman empire until their defeat.
To Galicia,Dniester or Tyras were living Tyragetae sub tribe of the Getae. Old name of the Sclavenes (Slavs) acording to ancient authors.

You are Kingslav,Tomenable Kingwend hehe


The first ruler of the Piasts Mieszko was "Dagome, King of the Wends"
Real Kingwends were majority R1a or R1b?

Thank you for seeing truth brother, much appreciated. My family is South-Slavic shifted on both sides Paternal, Maternal. This is complicated history I know, in this region of world with wars, and borders re-drawing. Ukraina in my language literally means "borderland". There is more similarity than differences between us Eastern Europeans and Albanians included also. There will always be nationalism, religion, history, etc to seperate us but is what it is. We must stay strong against all the western spys. Yes the Polish dynasty was R1B to my surprise but also was Romanov dynasty in Russia R1B also. I dont believe much importance as they make it seem, probably family with most acquired wealth and ruling power in that era were R1B I dont see any other importance of R1B being a major haplogroup among slavs.

Kingslav
07-07-17, 09:35
I didn't knew you are from that region Kingslav,very interesting.I know some other people with similar ancestry like yours,maybe coincidence or not,they are all emotionaly somehow "attached" to South Slavs.Thank you.
I was discussing the genetics of the Hutsuls,Boykos and Lemkos couple of times in this forum but i did not had much information about it but from other people sayings i knew they are "south-slavic" shifted or similar.

That's the old Getae land,so your statements were right all along,from that region and Danube basin our ancestors used to fight the Roman empire until their defeat.
To Galicia,Dniester or Tyras were living Tyragetae sub tribe of the Getae.

I am closer shifted with South Slavs, than West Slavs or East Slavs. This what I know about grandparents.

Paternal Grandfather- Bulgarian
Paternal Grandmother- Polish
Maternal Grandmother- Ukrainian/ Latvian
Maternal Grandfather- Sephardic Spanish/ Serbian

Unfortunately I only knew 2 of 4 grandparents other 2 passed away prior my birth, my babcia (grandma) raised me from birth until 6 years I am very grateful for this.

Milan.M
07-07-17, 09:40
Piast could even be a merchant,he also could be native with R1b there is still Slavs carrying that haplogroup.Romanov was also not Rus neither Rurikid.They were brought there after dinastic crisis.
I don't know much about Piasts so excuse me if i made some mistake is still Polish history,but taken in consideration the steps they made in religion and state building,also the steps against pagans and Polabian Slavs together with Germans/Franks,he was with ties with Holy Roman empire,that is visible.

Kingslav
07-07-17, 09:47
Piast could even be a merchant with an army,Romanov was also not Rus neither Rurikid.They were brought there after dinastic crisis.
I don't know much about Piasts so excuse me if i made some mistake is still Polish history,but taken in consideration the steps they made in religion and state building in those time they were going hand in hand anyway,also the steps against pagans and Polabian Slavs together with Germans/Franks,he was with ties with Holy Roman empire,that is visible.

I agree, R1B had to come from west it wasnt originated from Poland.

Milan.M
07-07-17, 09:49
Kingslav please don't use the word "western spys" here,they might not understand the sarcasm and ban you.I know there is a page "Squating Slavs" on facebook where they use this in sarcastic way but still they might get you wrong here.

Tomenable
07-07-17, 11:59
I1-M253 all over Iron Age Poland:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34258-Iron-Age-and-Early-Medieval-Polish-DNA/page3?p=513761&viewfull=1#post513761


Three of them belonged to the sub-branch I1a3a1a1a (I-L1237)Subclade I-L1237 on YFull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L1237/

The basal lineage of this subclade, I-L1237*, can be found here:

http://i.imgur.com/bncBRqP.png

So Jordanes was right - the Goths had originated from Sweden?


I agree, R1B had to come from west it wasnt originated from Poland.R1b actually originated from Russia, Yamnaya culture.

I2a has more western (WHG) origins than R1b (EHG).

Garrick
07-07-17, 12:12
In regards to I2a-slav .........it is a very poor name, better to use dinaric for the mountains or something like a culture Vucedol
There are I2 in north italy Remendello culture

These days one Asian man asked me that in three sentences fast say anything about what is characteric European. It is not easy (brain must do fast).

Answer:

1) I1 and I2 old European, haplogroup I is in Europe 35000 years
2) Greek democracy foundation for contemporary European democracy
3) Industrial revolution, foundation for development European economy and society

He asked me to add two actual things.

Answer:

1) Made in German, the best in the world
2) Beautiful European cities, nowhere in the world

He was very pleased, especially he was interested to know more about European haplogroups I1 and I2, about Greek democracy, and which European cities are must to see.

Fire Haired14
07-07-17, 12:17
There will always be nationalism, religion, history, etc to seperate us but is what it is. We must stay strong against all the western spys.

Eastern Europe didn't have nationalism between 1945 and 1991. And did you notice the Polish crowd chanted "USA, USA!" at the end of Trump's uplifting anti-Soviet, anti-Russia, pro-Poland speech yesterday.

Kingslav
07-07-17, 13:42
What means didnt have nationalism? We always had nationalism. 1945, 1991, 966 or any others you can imagine. We have complex government that is different from western democracy for long time. I fail to see how that is not nationalism? - FireHaired14

Kingslav
07-07-17, 15:26
I1-M253 all over Iron Age Poland:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34258-Iron-Age-and-Early-Medieval-Polish-DNA/page3?p=513761&viewfull=1#post513761

Subclade I-L1237 on YFull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L1237/

The basal lineage of this subclade, I-L1237*, can be found here:

http://i.imgur.com/bncBRqP.png

So Jordanes was right - the Goths had originated from Sweden?

R1b actually originated from Russia, Yamnaya culture.

I2a has more western (WHG) origins than R1b (EHG).

Nice effort Tomenable you almost sneaked 1 again. As we know I is the original European haplogroup only 1 that survived last glacial maximum, we could expect I haplogroup native European haplogroup people to mix with ancient WHG since they were in Europe also. No surprise. You saying that your haplogroup R1B originated in Russia Yamnaya and didn't mix with WHG is your claim. Ok. Also you said I2A has more WHG than R1B, I did compare and actually you have more WHG than my I2A sample.

2) Tomenable, Polish (haplogroup: R1b-DF27):


Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 43.79
2 Natufian 34.21
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 20.69
4 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 1
5 East_Asian 0.31


Ancient Eurasia K6
Compared Results.

Kingslav WHG- 42.82 - I2A
Tomenable WHG- 43.79 - R1B

Can you explain?

LeBrok
07-07-17, 16:41
What means didnt have nationalism? We always had nationalism. 1945, 1991, 966 or any others you can imagine. We have complex government that is different from western democracy for long time. I fail to see how that is not nationalism? - FireHaired14
Not during P-L Commonwealth. Everybody was preoccupied how to keep a country of many religions and ethnicities together.

Tomenable
07-07-17, 17:39
Not during P-L Commonwealth. Everybody was preoccupied how to keep a country of many religions and ethnicities together.

The biggest multicultural experiment in European history until modern Sweden? ;)

Garrick
07-07-17, 20:42
I1-M253 all over Iron Age Poland:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34258-Iron-Age-and-Early-Medieval-Polish-DNA/page3?p=513761&viewfull=1#post513761

Subclade I-L1237 on YFull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L1237/

The basal lineage of this subclade, I-L1237*, can be found here:

http://i.imgur.com/bncBRqP.png

So Jordanes was right - the Goths had originated from Sweden?

R1b actually originated from Russia, Yamnaya culture.

I2a has more western (WHG) origins than R1b (EHG).

Your information are actual and valuable.

For Goths it is expected for me.

For I2a, we speak about it, this rounds are important for everyone.

https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5647/54029168.5b/0_9b1cc_1d5ef020_orig.jpg

WHG: I2a; EHG: I2b and I2c; SHG: I2a and I2c

Kingslav
08-07-17, 00:53
The biggest multicultural experiment in European history until modern Sweden? ;)

I dont understand what this has to do I2A-DIN? It is clear "SZLACHTA" would not talk about homeland with this negative tone, in some attempt to draw comparison with "western Sweden" where "group assaults" taking place on nightly basis to put lightly. It is clear now what peasant class you belong. People often mistake about Poles with 40 million plus 20 million abroad 60 million Poles total, that we are all same, not true when different family had different responsibility in Polish Commonwealth a large vast land. No surprise to me when Albanians and other groups sense this non-unity among Poles and feed off it and try bash us, I dont blame them they know how to stand united at very least. People like you are giving them this ammunition. If you not satisfied with Polish Commonwealth legacy, than cross border to western side, I heard "Merkel" is taking new application everyday.

Kingslav
08-07-17, 01:16
Can you elaborate more on your theory of I2A-DIN emerging from Polesian swamp marshes? The 1 you posted earlier anthrogenica.com with hand-drawn map lol very intriguing theory also second part of my question is how did Rusyns (my ancestors) descend from Vlachs if there was no Vlachs in medieval Poland according to your observations? Thanks- Kingslav

Can we get back on topic of I2A-DIN now?

This 2 questions Im really trying get out of Tomenable. So far he has chose to go "mute" since I dismissed his last theory.

Kingslav
08-07-17, 01:47
I dont understand what this has to do I2A-DIN? It is clear "SZLACHTA" would not talk about homeland with this negative tone, in some attempt to draw comparison with "western Sweden" where "group assaults" taking place on nightly basis to put lightly. It is clear now what peasant class you belong. People often mistake about Poles with 40 million plus 20 million abroad 60 million Poles total, that we are all same, not true when different family had different responsibility in Polish Commonwealth a large vast land. No surprise to me when Albanians and other groups sense this non-unity among Poles and feed off it and try bash us, I dont blame them they know how to stand united at very least. People like you are giving them this ammunition. If you not satisfied with Polish Commonwealth legacy, than cross border to western side, I heard "Merkel" is taking new application everyday.

@Lebrok I noticed you issued me infraction for my above post. Can you explain what part of paragraph you deemed as punishable? Just looking for clarification thats all. Thanks- Kingslav

Fire Haired14
08-07-17, 01:49
What means didnt have nationalism? We always had nationalism. 1945, 1991, 966 or any others you can imagine. We have complex government that is different from western democracy for long time. I fail to see how that is not nationalism? - FireHaired14

I got the impression that you think Eastern Europe should be united as one people.

Kingslav
08-07-17, 02:01
I got the impression that you think Eastern Europe should be united as one people.

I got impression that this sneak attempt to bash Slavs specifically, Poles, and "Pro-America statement". I am here to discuss I2A-DIN. The last thing you mention on topic if I remember correctly, was some sort of comparison of Ukrainians with British-German-Swedish groups. Comedy.

LeBrok
08-07-17, 07:43
@Lebrok I noticed you issued me infraction for my above post. Can you explain what part of paragraph you deemed as punishable? Just looking for clarification thats all. Thanks- KingslavIntent of your post is punishable.

LeBrok
08-07-17, 07:45
I got impression that this sneak attempt to bash Slavs specifically, Poles, and "Pro-America statement". I am here to discuss I2A-DIN. The last thing you mention on topic if I remember correctly, was some sort of comparison of Ukrainians with British-German-Swedish groups. Comedy.Nah, I don't think you are here to discuss anything. You are here to tell us what to think.

Fatherland
08-07-17, 07:48
It's good to avoid this discussions of Albanians conquered by I2A-Din. We know very well who was conquered and by whom. Let's respect the decision of LeBrok about this issue. Believe me, it's very painful if we enter in details. So, let's try to make a civilised discussion.
Upvoted your post http://i.imgur.com/aaIPJM8.gif Metal shall never die http://i.imgur.com/aaIPJM8.gif



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8ZqFlw6hYg

Fatherland
08-07-17, 08:12
It's good to avoid this discussions of Albanians conquered by I2A-Din. We know very well who was conquered and by whom. Let's respect the decision of LeBrok about this issue. Believe me, it's very painful if we enter in details. So, let's try to make a civilised discussion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asnnqaogaxQ

Garrick
08-07-17, 08:23
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170623/1eb8d5f483c941feb61df3844c0840e7.jpg

R1b-Z2103: Proto-Thracian, later mostly Dacians/Free Dacians, they spread through Balkans, Italy etc. Origin is Southern/Central Russia.

J2b2-L283: Subclade M-241. Thracian, Greek, Macedonian. Origin is probably area present day Turkey (south)/Near East (north).

E1b-L618: About this haplogroup there is a lot on Eupedia. It is frequent in the Balkans, Romania, etc. It can be found in many countries of Europe and some outside of Europe. There is in Dalmatia today. Ancient Greeks, Macedonians, Thracians/Dacians, and many others had this haplogroup. Origin not yet been identified.

Fatherland
08-07-17, 08:47
R1b-Z2103: Proto-Thracian, later mostly Dacians/Free Dacians, they spread through Balkans, Italy etc. Origin is Southern/Central Russia.

J2b2-L283: Subclade M-241. Thracian, Greek, Macedonian. Origin is probably area present day Turkey (south)/Near East (north).

E1b-L618: About this haplogroup there is a lot on Eupedia. It is frequent in the Balkans, Romania, etc. It can be found in many countries of Europe and some outside of Europe. There is in Dalmatia today. Ancient Greeks, Macedonians, Thracians/Dacians, and many others had this haplogroup. Origin not yet been identified.
J2b2-L283 is Steppe. Its admixture was typically Steppe, Bronze Age Warriors. None of it is found in Anatolia.

All of those 3 were Illyrian.

Have a good night.

Fustan
08-07-17, 08:49
R1b-Z2103: Proto-Thracian, later mostly Dacians/Free Dacians, they spread through Balkans, Italy etc. Origin is Southern/Central Russia.

J2b2-L283: Subclade M-241. Thracian, Greek, Macedonian. Origin is probably area present day Turkey (south)/Near East (north).

E1b-L618: About this haplogroup there is a lot on Eupedia. It is frequent in the Balkans, Romania, etc. It can be found in many countries of Europe and some outside of Europe. There is in Dalmatia today. Ancient Greeks, Macedonians, Thracians/Dacians, and many others had this haplogroup. Origin not yet been identified.

And not a single haplogroup is Illyrian, they just disappeared, poof! The slavic newcomers from 700ad also dissapeared according to you since you claim I2a isnt slavic.

Very interesting thoughts you have Garrick, I must say!

Milan.M
08-07-17, 08:55
R1b-Z2103: Proto-Thracian, later mostly Dacians/Free Dacians, they spread through Balkans, Italy etc. Origin is Southern/Central Russia.

J2b2-L283: Subclade M-241. Thracian, Greek, Macedonian. Origin is probably area present day Turkey (south)/Near East (north).

E1b-L618: About this haplogroup there is a lot on Eupedia. It is frequent in the Balkans, Romania, etc. It can be found in many countries of Europe and some outside of Europe. There is in Dalmatia today. Ancient Greeks, Macedonians, Thracians/Dacians, and many others had this haplogroup. Origin not yet been identified.
Garick please..
So far in historical Thracian lands were found

E1b1b1a1b 800 B.C

R1a Z93 Merichleri burial mound 1800 B.C



By this time Thracian ethnogenesis were done,all after 1800 B.C can be count as Thracian,because even the mainstream scholars consider Thracians to be formed from indigenous population and multi cordoned culture which lasted from 22nd B.C to exactly 18th B.C when we already found R1a.

R1b you posted is from a culture that was never associated with the Thracians to begin with.However i am not excluding that they "admixed" with this people and carried this haplogroup in minority,but i doubt it was in dominant level or formed the historical Thracians.

Garrick
08-07-17, 09:03
J2b2-L283 is Steppe. Its admixture was typically Steppe. None of it is found in Anatolia.

I wrote about origin of J-M241. It is probably area present day Turkey (south)/near East (north), I would like if someone has another opinion. I always try to find for any haplogroup origin.

Yes, individual found in Croatia J2b2-L283 probably came from Russian steppe. Maciamo wrote about it.

Fatherland
08-07-17, 09:12
I wrote about origin of J-M241. It is probably area present day Turkey (south)/near East (north), I would like if someone has another opinion. I always try to find for any haplogroup origin.

Yes, individual found in Croatia J2b2-L283 probably came from Russian steppe. Maciamo wrote about it.
You're a hypocrite. We can go further back if you wish and IJ exists then. It all depends what context you want to use. So far no J2b2-L283 found in Anatolia, it's 100% European and only found in Europe.

Garrick
08-07-17, 09:13
Garick please..
So far in historical Thracian lands were found

E1b1b1a1b 800 B.C

R1a Z93 Merichleri burial mound 1800 B.C



By this time Thracian ethnogenesis were done,all after 1800 B.C can be count as Thracian,because even the mainstream scholars consider Thracians to be formed from indigenous population and multi cordoned culture which lasted from 22nd B.C to exactly 18th B.C when we already found R1a.

R1b you posted is from a culture that was never associated with the Thracians to begin with.However i am not excluding that they "admixed" with this people and carried this haplogroup in minority,but i doubt it was in dominant level or formed the historical Thracians.

If you read carefully I didn't write Thracian but proto-Thracian. Proto-Thracian people developed from mix Neolithic population and invading Indo-Europeans. It was complex process, yes it is very intersting for discussion but not for this thread.

Milan.M
08-07-17, 09:22
If you read carefully I didn't write Thracian but proto-Thracian. Proto-Thracian people developed from mix Neolithic population and invading Indo-Europeans. It was complex process, yes it is very intersting for discussion but not for this thread.
Could be a minor lineage but it can not be Proto-Thracian cause it didn't formed the bulk of the population from the sources we have now,and was most probably not associated with speakers of Thracian language.
This R1b is out of historical Thracian lands,Thracians expanded to Panonia and as far Southern Poland,Ukraine,river Dniester and Moldova and elsewhere in Balkans but in bit later times than 2700 B.C when this R1b is found in Croatia.

So please when you write your own theories like Bastarnae were I2a din or something similar,say that that is your own opinion like i do,or quote a scholar if you mention one.

Garrick
08-07-17, 09:23
You're a hypocrite. We can go further back if you wish and IJ exists then. It all depends what context you want to use. So far no J2b2-L283 found in Anatolia, it's 100% European and only found in Europe.

No Fatherland. I really didn't think nothing bad. Only spoke about roots what is most interesting for me personally.

If you read carefully I didn't speak about roots of E-V13. It is mysterious. Thread "Where did E-V13 originate" is very interesting.

Garrick
08-07-17, 10:07
Could be a minor lineage but it can not be Proto-Thracian cause it didn't formed the bulk of the population from the sources we have now,and was most probably not associated with speakers of Thracian language.
This R1b is out of historical Thracian lands,Thracians expanded to Panonia and Southern Poland,Ukraine,river Dniester and Moldova and elsewhere in Balkans but in bit later times than 2700 B.C when this R1b is found in Croatia.

So please when you write your own theories like Bastarnae were I2a din or something similar,say that that is your own opinion like i do,or quote a scholar if you mention one.

No. You can read about proto-Thracians:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacians#cite_note-61

Evidence of proto-Thracians or proto-Dacians in the prehistoric period depends on the remains of material culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_culture). It is generally proposed that a proto-Dacian or proto-Thracian people developed from a mixture of indigenous peoples (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Europe) and Indo-Europeans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans) from the time of Proto-Indo-European (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans) expansion in the Early Bronze Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Bronze_Age) (3,300–3,000 BC)[60] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacians#cite_note-61) when the latter, around 1500 BC, conquered the indigenous peoples.[61] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacians#cite_note-62) The indigenous people were Danubian farmers, and the invading people of the BC 3rd millennium were Kurgan warrior-herders from the Ukrainian and Russian steppes.[62] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacians#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMountain199858-63)

[60] Hoddinott, p. 27.
[61] Casson, p. 3.
[62] Mountain, 1998, p. 58

...
About origin of I-CTS10228 everyone can give own views, and readers are judging. We had long journey in this thread until member Sile introduced Bastarnae. In other genealogy forums about Bastarnae as carriers of I-CTS10228 written a lot, earlier. It is not easy terrain for coming to knowledge, and mostly forums about genealogy write about it. You can find another view which gave Tomenable who thinks I-CTS10228 emerged in Polesia. We will find in scientific papers when scientists investigate some territory and period and reveal findings.

Milan.M
08-07-17, 10:14
No. You can read about proto-Thracians:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacians#cite_note-61

Evidence of proto-Thracians or proto-Dacians in the prehistoric period depends on the remains of material culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_culture). It is generally proposed that a proto-Dacian or proto-Thracian people developed from a mixture of indigenous peoples (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Europe) and Indo-Europeans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans) from the time of Proto-Indo-European (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans) expansion in the Early Bronze Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Bronze_Age) (3,300–3,000 BC)[60] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacians#cite_note-61) when the latter, around 1500 BC, conquered the indigenous peoples.[61] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacians#cite_note-62) The indigenous people were Danubian farmers, and the invading people of the BC 3rd millennium were Kurgan warrior-herders from the Ukrainian and Russian steppes.[62] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacians#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMountain199858-63)

[60] Hoddinott, p. 27.
[61] Casson, p. 3.
[62] Mountain, 1998, p. 58

...
About origin of I-CTS10228 everyone can give own views, and readers are judging. We had long journey in this thread until member Sile introduced Bastarnae. In other genealogy forums about Bastarnae as carriers of I-CTS10228 written a lot, earlier. It is not easy terrain for coming to knowledge, and mostly forums about genealogy write about it. You can find another view which gave Tomenable who thinks I-CTS10228 emerged in Polesia. We will find in scientific papers when scientists investigate some territory and period and reveal findings.
R1b that you proposed as Thracian was not indigenous and is found in Vucedol culture,not even one scholar propose Thracians in this culture!!but Illyrians,or i can even add Greeks,considering the haplogroups found.

Multi cordoned culture was in Ukraine that is proposed as Thracian(Indo-European) 22nd to 18th century,and as seen in genetics,if they were the one migrating in Bulgaria and forming the Proto-Thracians it was Srubna related,R1a Z93 found in Merichleri burial mound Bulgaria 1800 B.C.

About Multi cordoned culture-tribes of this culture inhabited an area stretching from the Don (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_River_(Russia)) to Moldavia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldavia), including Dnieper Ukraine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnieper_Ukraine), Right-bank Ukraine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-bank_Ukraine), and part of the modern Ternopil oblast (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ternopil_oblast), and was bordered by the Volga (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga) to the east. The culture succeeded the western Catacomb culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacomb_culture).

That is all we have for right now...


About Bastarnae and I2a din or forum members,ok fine....

Garrick
08-07-17, 10:31
R1b that you proposed as Thracian was not indigenous and is found in Vucedol culture,not even one scholar propose Thracians in this culture!!but Illyrians,or i can even add Greeks,considering the haplogroups found.

Multi cordoned culture was in Ukraine that is proposed as Thracian(Indo-European),and as seen in genetics it was Srubna related,R1a Z93 found in Merichleri burial mound Bulgaria.

Proto-Thracian (since about 3300 years BC till Tracians and Dacians) not Thracian. It is big difference. Please, first you denied the term Proto-Thracian. But it is scientific term and everyone could see what it means and which period covers. We can discuss about what you write, but please not in this thread.

Why you don't give your own opinions about origin of I-CTS10228. Every constructive contribution and different opinions are useful. Despite some unnecessary things in these 34 pages this thread is very popular.

Milan.M
08-07-17, 10:42
Proto-Thracian not Thracian.

It is big difference. Please, first you denied the term Proto-Thracian. But it is scientific term and everyone could see what it means and which period covers. We can discuss about what you write, but please not in this thread.

Why you don't give your own opinions about origin of I-CTS10228. Every constructive contribution and different opinions are useful. Despite some unnecessary things in these 34 pages this thread is very popular.
Scientists speak of Proto-Thracians according to same wikipedia you quoted "from the time of Proto-Indo-European expansion in the Early Bronze Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Bronze_Age) when the latter, around 1500 BC, mixed with indigenous peoples. We speak of proto-Thracians from which during the Iron Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age) (about 1000 BC) Dacians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacians) and Thracians begin developing"

Vucedol culture begin 3000 B.C to 2200 B.C,and nothing to do with Thracians.

I2a din will appear in Iron or later Bronze age samples in Balkans if we have more samples,that is my opinion/believe and i associate it with the Thracian tribes,Getae,Tyragetae,Dacians etc.
Last time from the Balkans there was much more Neolithic than Iron age or late bronze age samples.

Garrick
08-07-17, 10:57
And not a single haplogroup is Illyrian, they just disappeared, poof! The slavic newcomers from 700ad also dissapeared according to you since you claim I2a isnt slavic.

Very interesting thoughts you have Garrick, I must say!

Do you really think Illyrians were in the Balkans 5485 BC or 2725 BC.

Garrick
08-07-17, 11:42
I2a din will appear in Iron or later Bronze age samples in Balkans if we have more samples,that is my opinion/believe and i associate it with the Thracian tribes,Getae,Tyragetae,Dacians etc.
Last time from the Balkans there was much more Neolithic than Iron age or late bronze age samples.

Good, you don't longer reject Proto-Tracians. And it is good to back to topics. Members here discussed about possibility that I-CTS10228 originally emerged among Thracians after bottleneck. Probability exists and it can be possible. We discuss about it all time, Thracian theory is possible, as German theory and Slavic theory. Illyrian theory is rejected as implausible.

One of key thesis is I-CTS10228 entered among Thracians (Getae-Dacians) and came to the Balkans before arriving Slavs to Balkans.

It can be 1) due to transfer I-CTS10228 from any (German) tribe to Tracians/Dacians or 2) direct emergence of I-CTS10228 among Thracians/Dacians after bottleneck.

What is difference. Given time and geography I-CTS10228 could emerge more Western and North than what was Thracian land in 300 BC. German tribes and some cultures are more plausible.

But what you say is necessary for researching. Maybe area was more east and south and Thracian theory would be more plausible. Your contribution to this thread can be valuable.

Milan.M
08-07-17, 17:07
I1-M253 all over Iron Age Poland:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34258-Iron-Age-and-Early-Medieval-Polish-DNA/page3?p=513761&viewfull=1#post513761

Subclade I-L1237 on YFull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L1237/

The basal lineage of this subclade, I-L1237*, can be found here:

http://i.imgur.com/bncBRqP.png

So Jordanes was right - the Goths had originated from Sweden?

R1b actually originated from Russia, Yamnaya culture.

I2a has more western (WHG) origins than R1b (EHG).
Again there is no proved connection in that migration,Wielbark DNA mean nothing,we need Chernyakov culture DNA for "Goths".
Here is opinion of scholars.



Guy Halsall (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Halsall) sees no chronological development from the Wielbark to Chernyakhov culture, given that the latter stage of the Wielbark culture is synchronous with Chernyakhov, and the two regions have minimal territorial overlap. "Although it is often claimed that Cernjachov metalwork derives from Wielbark types, close examination reveals no more than a few types with general similarities to Wielbark types".[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhov_culture#cite_note-14) Michael Kulikowski also challenges the Wielbark connection, highlighting that the greatest reason for Wielbark-Chernyakhov connection derives from a "negative characteristic" (i.e., the absence of weapons in burials), which is less convincing proof than a positive one. He argues that the Chernyakhov culture could just as likely have been an indigenous development of local Pontic, Carpic or Dacian cultures, or a blended culture resulting from Przeworsk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przeworsk_culture) and steppe interactions. Furthermore, he altogether denies the existence of Goths prior to the 3rd century. Kulikowsky states that no Gothic people, nor even a noble kernel, migrated from Scandinavia or the Baltic. Rather, he suggests that the "Goths" formed in situ. Like the Alemanni or the Franks, the Goths were a "product of the Roman frontier"

Jordanes mention "Scandza" also his book is called Getica.

LeBrok
08-07-17, 17:17
You're a hypocrite. We can go further back if you wish and IJ exists then. It all depends what context you want to use. So far no J2b2-L283 found in Anatolia, it's 100% European and only found in Europe. Please, stop being overly aggressive in this discussion.

Garrick
09-07-17, 09:57
Please, stop being overly aggressive in this discussion.

No matter, emotions are in questions, probably he is good guy.

In the Balkans, especially, there are a lot of myths and wrong beliefs and assumptions, probably it is strong reason why this region lags behind.

Your motto should be star guide for Balkan people.

Fustan
09-07-17, 11:30
Please, stop being overly aggressive in this discussion.

What's "overly aggressive" about pointing out hypocrisy, exactly?

Garrick
09-07-17, 12:47
The evidence you are mentioning regarding this Russian scientist I suppose will be published soon.
If so, such paper will probably be discussed and interpreted in depth in the forum.


Surely they somewhat published, they have a lot of institute, and their scientists published, you can see, in many scientific papers what are here in the forum.

These days I read some very good Ukrainian papers about cultures, I like what is pure science, without ideology.

Problem is language, although somewhat can be understood because certain similarities between Slavic languages, and there is no everything in Internet, must be purchased in library.

Tomenable
09-07-17, 15:09
Goths were I1a3, just like Maciamo predicted back in 2015:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34258-Iron-Age-and-Early-Medieval-Polish-DNA/page5?p=514075#post514075

Milan.M
09-07-17, 15:26
Nice,but we made a step more,since this clade is absent from Scandinavia, we ruled out a Gothic migration from there right now.

Garrick
09-07-17, 20:53
You know what is odd. My grandfather who died this year always referd to almost all slavs from Romania as Bulgarians.
I believe that this I2a-din entered at a early time in vlach and slavic population, my best choise would be Bastarnae. This population corespound in time and place to first bringing this Hg in area.

It is the best explanation in terms of time and territory.

I-CTS10228 emerged most probably in Zarubintsy or Poinesti-Lukashevka culture.

Zarubintsy culture, 3rd century BC - 1st century AD.

Poinesti-Lukashevka culture is her predecessor.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/Rome_and_the_Barbarians_in_Eastern_and_Central_Eur ope_around_100_AD_by_Shchukin.png?1499623021690

Both of these cultures science confirmed they are Bastarnaian.

Scientist Pashkovska analyzed Pripyat group of Zarubintsy culture and found it is Bastarnaian (both Yastorf and Pomeranian).

Bastarnae were German tribe, it means I-CTS10228 is German marker.

But Germans transfered this haplogroup to the Thracians/Dacians, Sarmatians and Slavs, (there are opinion Slavic lecixon adopted numerous German words of Bastarnae) plus his ancestor lived in Western Europe in Loschbure thousand of years before (100% WHG) what it means better call it European marker.

It is considered that already members of Poineshti-Lukashevka culture (ended 30 BC) migrated to the Balkans. If it is true I-CTS10228 emerged in the Balkans in the end of the old and in the begining of the new era!

Nik
10-07-17, 09:03
The more I read about it the more I'm convinced about a possible Dacian/Bastarnae/Celtic origin of I-P37.

All the aforementioned populations were resettled in Illyricum, namely the Dacians, Bastarnae, Carpi, Anartes (Celto-Dacians). Then there were several Celtic tribes such as Taurisci, Cotini, Osi, Britogalli.

Fatherland
10-07-17, 20:03
Goths were I1a3, just like Maciamo predicted back in 2015:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34258-Iron-Age-and-Early-Medieval-Polish-DNA/page5?p=514075#post514075
Lol at whoever downvoted this.

Leka
11-07-17, 02:59
The more I read about it the more I'm convinced about a possible Dacian/Bastarnae/Celtic origin of I-P37.

All the aforementioned populations were resettled in Illyricum, namely the Dacians, Bastarnae, Carpi, Anartes (Celto-Dacians). Then there were several Celtic tribes such as Taurisci, Cotini, Osi, Britogalli.
Obviously you're not reading the data that actually matters or your thought process is really flawed. A Germanic tribe spreading a ydna that's found far and wide among Slavs, follows their movements from Belarus to Greece, that arose only 2300 years, and doesn't exist among Germans to boot, makes sense to you? Sounds like wishful thinking to me.

I2a CTS10228 is what's being questioned here.

Nik
11-07-17, 09:41
Obviously you're not reading the data that actually matters or your thought process is really flawed. A Germanic tribe spreading a ydna that's found far and wide among Slavs, follows their movements from Belarus to Greece, that arose only 2300 years, and doesn't exist among Germans to boot, makes sense to you? Sounds like wishful thinking to me.

I2a CTS10228 is what's being questioned here.
Judging by the speed that you jump into conclusions and insult people, your IQ must be way below average. You (and some others here) sound just like those poor souls that burned innocent beautiful women because "the data that actually mattered" proved them guilty of witchcraft.

Perhaps you and your fellow keyboard swingers can take a chill pill and understand first what it means to be a Slav. Slavs absorbed millions of Germanics, Balts, Scythians, Sarmatians, Dacians, Thracians, Illyrians, Romans, etc, so the CTS10228 guy could have belonged to any of such ethnic groups, got assimilated and marched throughout Eastern Europe joining the Slavic cause.

So until we get A LOT of data from ancient DNA and confirmation that such skeletons belonged specifically to early Slavs judging by their culture, traditions, ornaments found in the area, then we can talk about thought process. Until then everyone can freely exercise the right to freedom of thought.

Back to your IQ, didn't you read that I listed Dacians, Bastarnae, Carpi, Anartes, Taurisci, Osi, Cotini, and Britogalli? All of them besides Bastarnae escaped you? And you talk about wishful thinking.

Fatherland
11-07-17, 14:26
The more I read about it the more I'm convinced about a possible Dacian/Bastarnae/Celtic origin of I-P37.

All the aforementioned populations were resettled in Illyricum, namely the Dacians, Bastarnae, Carpi, Anartes (Celto-Dacians). Then there were several Celtic tribes such as Taurisci, Cotini, Osi, Britogalli.
Wrong, you are the low-IQ poster here, not Leka. Your "theory" is not based on any fact, but pure fantasy and you keep changing it which makes you among the least credible posters.

I2a-CTS10228 is Slavic, nothing else.

I am 100% sure this fantasy has to do with your dubious ethnic background. Stop coping and off with you.

Nik
11-07-17, 14:56
Wrong, you are the low-IQ poster here, not Leka. Your "theory" is not based on any fact, but pure fantasy and you keep changing it which makes you among the least credible posters.

I2a-CTS10228 is Slavic, nothing else.

I am 100% sure this fantasy has to do with your dubious ethnic background. Stop coping and off with you.
Reasons why you're part of the low IQ bunch:

1) Calling me a low-IQ poster because of a different opinion and being skeptical due to lack of evidence
2) Calling my opinion a theory, when its just an opinion which I'm willing to consider besides the other obvious Slavic theory
3) I find that changing your opinion is a sign of intelligence and willingness to learn, as well as neutrality in the matter, unlike stubbornly following an agenda
4) Calling me 'among the least credible posters' when unlike you, I never impose my opinions/theories and call them as the definitive truth without further evidence. There are only a bunch of credible posters in this forum, and they're not right all the time and they know it.
5) You being 100% sure of everything and chasing me in every topic after being schooled so many times.

Now if you have nothing else to add, please refrain from replying to my posts. You're a waste of space in here. I'd rather have credible posters analyze/criticize my opinions/questions.

LeBrok
11-07-17, 14:59
Obviously you're not reading the data that actually matters or your thought process is really flawed. A Germanic tribe spreading a ydna that's found far and wide among Slavs, follows their movements from Belarus to Greece, that arose only 2300 years, and doesn't exist among Germans to boot, makes sense to you? Sounds like wishful thinking to me.

I2a CTS10228 is what's being questioned here.


Wrong, you are the low-IQ poster here, not Leka. Your "theory" is not based on any fact, but pure fantasy and you keep changing it which makes you among the least credible posters.

I am 100% sure this fantasy has to do with your dubious ethnic background. Stop coping and off with you.


Stay civil.

Fatherland
11-07-17, 15:10
[FONT=Verdana]


Stay civil.

Read Nik's post above me. I didn't jump to the IQ discussion beforehand.

LABERIA
11-07-17, 15:17
Tani.......

Leka
11-07-17, 15:28
Judging by the speed that you jump into conclusions and insult people, your IQ must be way below average. You (and some others here) sound just like those poor souls that burned innocent beautiful women because "the data that actually mattered" proved them guilty of witchcraft.

Perhaps you and your fellow keyboard swingers can take a chill pill and understand first what it means to be a Slav. Slavs absorbed millions of Germanics, Balts, Scythians, Sarmatians, Dacians, Thracians, Illyrians, Romans, etc, so the CTS10228 guy could have belonged to any of such ethnic groups, got assimilated and marched throughout Eastern Europe joining the Slavic cause.

So until we get A LOT of data from ancient DNA and confirmation that such skeletons belonged specifically to early Slavs judging by their culture, traditions, ornaments found in the area, then we can talk about thought process. Until then everyone can freely exercise the right to freedom of thought.

Back to your IQ, didn't you read that I listed Dacians, Bastarnae, Carpi, Anartes, Taurisci, Osi, Cotini, and Britogalli? All of them besides Bastarnae escaped you? And you talk about wishful thinking.

I have no time for your nonsense. Topic is regarding CTS10228 and its distribution. If you want to discuss IQ's, mythology and fairy tales, open a topic and invite me.

Nik
11-07-17, 16:02
I have no time for your nonsense. Topic is regarding CTS10228 and its distribution. If you want to discuss IQ's, mythology and fairy tales, open a topic and invite me.
So where's your contribution to the origin of CTS10228 and its distribution? The fact that you use its lack from the 3 Croatian samples?

I'm not disregarding the option that it's a Slavic marker, but rather saying that there's not enough evidence to prove it or disprove that it belonged to another ethnicity around the Carpathians. The reason behind it is that no ancient documents noticed the Slavs while they always spoke of Dacians, Bastarnae, Scytho-Sarmatians in the area, and all of them either got Slavicized or Romanized later on.

If you're claiming that CTS10228 is a Slavic marker, I agree with you as it is one of the modern Slavic markers.

But little details such as its presence among Romanians, Moldovans, and Vlachs, and the physical appearance of Herzegovinians, do make me think twice before accepting the obvious theory of it being Slavic. Call me old fashioned (regarding the anthropological part) but I can't see how a half NE European half Balkanite is darker than a full Balkanite. Similarly, seems strange that the Slavic invaders turned nomadic and got Romanized in a period when the opposite was happening, then Slavs settling in South Albania and instead of getting Albanized they became Vlachs, or again I2a originally Slavic tribes became Vlachs in ex-Yugoslavia while being from the "ruling class" and at the peak of their power and expansion.

Therefore, I'd go back a few years when Maciamo suggested that it was brought by the Dacians in the Balkans initially, then Slavs brought even more and spread it around.

LABERIA
11-07-17, 16:36
So where's your contribution to the origin of CTS10228 and its distribution? The fact that you use its lack from the 3 Croatian samples?

I'm not disregarding the option that it's a Slavic marker, but rather saying that there's not enough evidence to prove it or disprove that it belonged to another ethnicity around the Carpathians. The reason behind it is that no ancient documents noticed the Slavs while they always spoke of Dacians, Bastarnae, Scytho-Sarmatians in the area, and all of them either got Slavicized or Romanized later on.

If you're claiming that CTS10228 is a Slavic marker, I agree with you as it is one of the modern Slavic markers.

But little details such as its presence among Romanians, Moldovans, and Vlachs, and the physical appearance of Herzegovinians, do make me think twice before accepting the obvious theory of it being Slavic. Call me old fashioned (regarding the anthropological part) but I can't see how a half NE European half Balkanite is darker than a full Balkanite. Similarly, seems strange that the Slavic invaders turned nomadic and got Romanized in a period when the opposite was happening, then Slavs settling in South Albania and instead of getting Albanized they became Vlachs, or again I2a originally Slavic tribes became Vlachs in ex-Yugoslavia while being from the "ruling class" and at the peak of their power and expansion.

Therefore, I'd go back a few years when Maciamo suggested that it was brought by the Dacians in the Balkans initially, then Slavs brought even more and spread it around.
There are two theories about the Vlachs in South Balkans.
First, they arrived from today Romania.
Second, they are latinised natives of Epir.
What we know for sure, if we accept the second option, is that before latinisation this people were not greeks.
It's true that Vlachs are more darker than the average southern Albanian. About Vlachs, you can add other elements regarding their ethnogenesis, from roman mercenaries or colons settled by romans, etc. They are really a great enigma.
I don't know much about genetics, but my opinion from what i read here is that this haplogroup was brought by slavs. I have serious doubts about the percentage of slavs in South Albania. I don't see serious studies about this. Maybe other studies in the future can prove even a high percentage, i don't know. But this actual data don't convince me.

Nik
12-07-17, 13:08
There are two theories about the Vlachs in South Balkans.
First, they arrived from today Romania.
Second, they are latinised natives of Epir.
What we know for sure, if we accept the second option, is that before latinisation this people were not greeks.
It's true that Vlachs are more darker than the average southern Albanian. About Vlachs, you can add other elements regarding their ethnogenesis, from roman mercenaries or colons settled by romans, etc. They are really a great enigma.
I don't know much about genetics, but my opinion from what i read here is that this haplogroup was brought by slavs. I have serious doubts about the percentage of slavs in South Albania. I don't see serious studies about this. Maybe other studies in the future can prove even a high percentage, i don't know. But this actual data don't convince me.
Well I for instance think that both theories can be true. Vlachs are too diverse from each other, therefore I see them as Romanized, Illyrians, Epirotes, Thracians, Greeks, Macedonians, Dacians, Germanics, Celts, etc.

But considering the specific haplogroups of some Vlachs in South Albania and Macedonia for example, they do show an Eastern Balkan influence, having more J2a, R1a, and I2a. Obviously many here will say that J2a is Greek, while R1a and I2a are Slavic, but we know that's not true (yet). Thracians definitely had tons of J2a together with Macedonians, as well as R1a. It's only I2a that needs to be proven although the age CTS10228 is too young to have been widespread among South Thracians, so I'd rather considering a Northern origin in the area possibly inhabited by Dacians, Scythians, Bastarnae, Slavs, etc.

Perhaps that could explain why Vlachs are on average more Mediterranean/Pontid than Albanians, just like modern Bulgarians and Romanians.

LABERIA
12-07-17, 13:41
Well I for instance think that both theories can be true. Vlachs are too diverse from each other, therefore I see them as Romanized, Illyrians, Epirotes, Thracians, Greeks, Macedonians, Dacians, Germanics, Celts, etc.

But considering the specific haplogroups of some Vlachs in South Albania and Macedonia for example, they do show an Eastern Balkan influence, having more J2a, R1a, and I2a. Obviously many here will say that J2a is Greek, while R1a and I2a are Slavic, but we know that's not true (yet). Thracians definitely had tons of J2a together with Macedonians, as well as R1a. It's only I2a that needs to be proven although the age CTS10228 is too young to have been widespread among South Thracians, so I'd rather considering a Northern origin in the area possibly inhabited by Dacians, Scythians, Bastarnae, Slavs, etc.

Perhaps that could explain why Vlachs are on average more Mediterranean/Pontid than Albanians, just like modern Bulgarians and Romanians.

Every option is open regarding Vlachs, but this was really interesting:

Call me old fashioned (regarding the anthropological part) but I can't see how a half NE European half Balkanite is darker than a full Balkanite.
If we follow this, than Vlachs of Epir are latinised natives.

DuPidh
12-07-17, 15:41
Well I for instance think that both theories can be true. Vlachs are too diverse from each other, therefore I see them as Romanized, Illyrians, Epirotes, Thracians, Greeks, Macedonians, Dacians, Germanics, Celts, etc.

But considering the specific haplogroups of some Vlachs in South Albania and Macedonia for example, they do show an Eastern Balkan influence, having more J2a, R1a, and I2a. Obviously many here will say that J2a is Greek, while R1a and I2a are Slavic, but we know that's not true (yet). Thracians definitely had tons of J2a together with Macedonians, as well as R1a. It's only I2a that needs to be proven although the age CTS10228 is too young to have been widespread among South Thracians, so I'd rather considering a Northern origin in the area possibly inhabited by Dacians, Scythians, Bastarnae, Slavs, etc.

Perhaps that could explain why Vlachs are on average more Mediterranean/Pontid than Albanians, just like modern Bulgarians and Romanians.
J2a is i huge haplogroup. Not all of that is Helen. Greek is a wider term. One can be Greek but have nothing to do with Hellens. A Greek could be an Albanian emigre, a Vlah, a Slav, a Thracian, and so on, who lives in Greece. But Hellens left it written that they were sharing the same space with Pellazgoi. Pellasgoi being the earliest inhabitants of Ballkans were not as mixed as today Greeks. Their best haplogroup candidate is I, G, E. So the other major Haplogroup of today's Greeks is J2a, a certain subclade of J2a, Which is the Hellenic marker. Hellens adoppted the Phoenician alphabet and language they spoke is close to Armenian, so for this to happen they must have lived in Anatolia. So, yes, J2a is a Hellenic marker. As you live Greece and go north this marker almost disappears.
As for Vlahs being Illyrians or Thracian: If they were Illyrians why do they call Albanians Arbanas?

Nik
12-07-17, 19:47
J2a is i huge haplogroup. Not all of that is Helen. Greek is a wider term. One can be Greek but have nothing to do with Hellens. A Greek could be an Albanian emigre, a Vlah, a Slav, a Thracian, and so on, who lives in Greece. But Hellens left it written that they were sharing the same space with Pellazgoi. Pellasgoi being the earliest inhabitants of Ballkans were not as mixed as today Greeks. Their best haplogroup candidate is I, G, E. So the other major Haplogroup of today's Greeks is J2a, a certain subclade of J2a, Which is the Hellenic marker. Hellens adoppted the Phoenician alphabet and language they spoke is close to Armenian, so for this to happen they must have lived in Anatolia. So, yes, J2a is a Hellenic marker. As you live Greece and go north this marker almost disappears.
Wow, thank you for the lecture. You opened my eyes.


As for Vlahs being Illyrians or Thracian: If they were Illyrians why do they call Albanians Arbanas?
Huh? I don't get where you're going with this. How are they supposed to call Albanians if they were Illyrians or Thracians?

Trojet
12-07-17, 20:57
LOL. It seems like every post on this thread is being down-rated. I'm guessing someone will down-rate this post too.

EDIT: I was right. Evidence that some will down-rate pretty much anything...

Trojet
12-07-17, 21:20
Obviously many here will say that J2a is Greek, while R1a and I2a are Slavic, but we know that's not true (yet).

First of all, you're not specifying which "R1a" and "I2a" clades you're talking about. Second of all how do you know that's not true. Evidence says *certain* I2a and R1a clades are Slavic.


Thracians definitely had tons of J2a together with Macedonians, as well as R1a. It's only I2a that needs to be proven although the age CTS10228 is too young to have been widespread among South Thracians

Since you claim Thracians definitely had "tons" of J2a and R1a, you must know something we don't, as I'm not aware of any study that tested many Thracian remains. So we'd like to see the evidence. Furthermore, I see you seem to be convinced that I-CTS10228 (I2a-Din) was present among Thracians, and you're just waiting for this to be proven. I wonder who Slavicized these populations in Thrace then, since going by what you're saying, Thracians must've not been very different from present day populations.


Perhaps that could explain why Vlachs are on average more Mediterranean/Pontid than Albanians, just like modern Bulgarians and Romanians.

And this is another area you appear to be struggling with. You seem to confuse genetics, specifically Y-DNA, with appearance/phenotype. They don't have to go in a parallel pattern.

Dinarid
13-07-17, 04:01
Bla bla bla...

I even made sure to say that Northern Slavs have mostly blue eyes and some of the highest percentages of blonde hair, and you still didn't get it. Oh well, a lesson for me not to waste time.


"Many Ukrainians are dark-haired, dark-eyed too". Wow, what a great point mate. I feel so stupid right now.

How about concentrating really hard on my post and read why its exactly in the place with almost 80-90% Slavic yDna haplogroups that the eyes are the darkest, and compare it to the surrounding areas. Unless you believe Albanians have lighter features than Slavs.

Then again, another issue rises. Did the Early South Slavs who belonged to I2a to guard the mountains while the R1a will take care of the lowlands? Seems like Early Slavs knew about genetics 15 centuries before us, or its simply an extreme coincidence that most of the I2a settled in Herzegovina?

Seems to me like they were being surrounded by incoming R1a.

But anyway, why I am wasting my time with the Albanian version of Kingslav.


The problem is that its not the small differences that create the complex of inferiority, it's the awareness of how others perceive them combined with a weak/childish personality which results in such people succumbing to the temptation of proving their worth to the people who despise them and don't even care about their arguments.

Such a waste of time and nerves if u ask me.

Many people hate us, so what?

They hate us for being mostly Muslim, so what? Our ancestors lived in a tough period where the Ottomans butchered us for 300 years, imposed high taxes, and sweetened the deal by allowing them to carry weapons and use horses if they convert. Case closed.

They hate us for spreading criminality in Europe or USA as if we are the only ones. Yeah we were screwed by the Western Powers having our lands given as gifts to our neighbours, then not supported by them in WW2 but rather given like trash to the Russians to do as they please, then following 45 years of harsh communist regime. What do you expect out of that, painters and ballerinas?

Long story short, this is who we r, a hot blooded nation with tendencies to violence trying to make our way to the top on our own at all costs and using all the methods we can.

Boasting in forums that we are Illyrians and E-V13, J2b2, R1b, etc. and that Serbs are newcomers won't change anything.

Good luck getting anywhere with that attitude. The same racist argument can be made about any group of people whose nation has endured hardship, and is often used about third-world inhabitants in the rhetoric of those with a rather unsavory agenda. You are accepting what Stormfront is telling you that you are. How sad. I'm just glad most Albanians don't think like that.

Leka
13-07-17, 05:43
So where's your contribution to the origin of CTS10228 and its distribution? The fact that you use its lack from the 3 Croatian samples?

I'm not disregarding the option that it's a Slavic marker, but rather saying that there's not enough evidence to prove it or disprove that it belonged to another ethnicity around the Carpathians. The reason behind it is that no ancient documents noticed the Slavs while they always spoke of Dacians, Bastarnae, Scytho-Sarmatians in the area, and all of them either got Slavicized or Romanized later on.

If you're claiming that CTS10228 is a Slavic marker, I agree with you as it is one of the modern Slavic markers.

But little details such as its presence among Romanians, Moldovans, and Vlachs, and the physical appearance of Herzegovinians, do make me think twice before accepting the obvious theory of it being Slavic. Call me old fashioned (regarding the anthropological part) but I can't see how a half NE European half Balkanite is darker than a full Balkanite. Similarly, seems strange that the Slavic invaders turned nomadic and got Romanized in a period when the opposite was happening, then Slavs settling in South Albania and instead of getting Albanized they became Vlachs, or again I2a originally Slavic tribes became Vlachs in ex-Yugoslavia while being from the "ruling class" and at the peak of their power and expansion.

Therefore, I'd go back a few years when Maciamo suggested that it was brought by the Dacians in the Balkans initially, then Slavs brought even more and spread it around.
Brother, I don't need to contribute, scientists are doing just that along with CTS10228 folks who are testing. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't contribute to that extent. All one needs to do is follow the data, and if you haven't followed this specific halpogroup closely, look at the yfull tree to get a general idea: https://yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/. As you can see all sub-branches downstream are to be found from Russia to Greece: PH908 (formed 1850ybp) found from Greece to Finland; S17250 (formed 2300ybp, TMRCA 1850ybp) found from Russian, Poland to Greece; same thing with Z17855 from Lithuania to Greece; same thing with Y4460 etc. To dig deeper, check the TMRCA dates, most branches seem to have really started to pickup steam right around 250-300 AD, which makes perfect sense when one combines this data along with the historical sources that speak of the Slavic expansion - which other population fits the bill better? Please don't mention obscure tribes that we know nothing about, when we actually have the evidence staring right at us genetically, linguistically and historically.

Thracians, Illyrians etc. where disintegrating around this time. Their golden days and when they were in full swing that were a force to recon with this specific SNP/clade was miniscule (2300ybp)....

Phenotype doesn't correlate with ydna, y chromosome makes merely one percentile of your genetic profile. Autosomal DNA is what influence phenotype and other features.

Milan.M
13-07-17, 07:57
Here some people want to convince us in something they themselves contradict.
They claim the oldest I-CTS10228-* (https://yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228*/) is from Podkarpackie (Subcarpathian) region in Poland,that is southern Poland,ok fine.The TMRCA is 2300 years and that this haplogroup is Slavic,Slavs presumably living in what is now Poland.
But we had DNA from Iron Age Poland just couple days ago AND this is who lived there;

So out of 16:

8 I1 (I-M253)
- 3 I1a3a1a1a (I-L1237)
- 1 I1a2a (I-Z59)
- 4 just I-M253

4 G2a (G-P15)

1 I2a2 (I-m436)
1 R1a M420
1 R1b1 (R-L278)
1 E1b1 (E-P2)

The TMRCA of I-CTS10228-* (https://yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228*/) is in this timespan,see the results above.There was no Slavs in Poland in that time.

But more interesting is to who lived in Southern Poland,this is what member Trojet have to say;

Furthermore, I see you seem to be convinced that I-CTS10228 (I2a-Din) was present among Thracians, and you're just waiting for this to be proven. I wonder who Slavicized these populations in Thrace then, since going by what you're saying, Thracians must've not been very different from present day populations.


Right but Thracians were not living only in the Roman province of Thrace.To ancient Greeks like Herodotus they were most numerous people in Europe,to Roman like Pliny the most powerful but whatever,The ancient Greeks employed the term "Thrace" to refer to all of the territory which lay north of Thessaly inhabited by the Thracians, a region which "had no definite boundaries" and to which other regions (like Macedonia and even Scythia) were added.
Thracians inhabited parts of the ancient provinces of Thrace, Moesia, Macedonia, Dacia, Scythia Minor, Sarmatia, Bithynia, Mysia, Pannonia, and other regions of the Balkans and Anatolia. This area extended over most of the Balkans region, and the Getae north of the Danube as far as beyond the Bug and including Panonia in the west.There were about 200 Thracian tribes.
For example the Tyragetae were living along the river Dniester in Ukraine,one of the name of Dniester is Tyras,that's from where they got their name.
So if in Poland according to DNA there was no Slavs 2300 years ago,who lived in southern Poland Podkarpackie? Well we have that in written history.

Conclusion;If one want to say that in southern Poland lived Slavs 2300 years ago one should say that Thracians are Slavs.

Or unless one want to claim "Celts" now or Germanics?

Garrick
13-07-17, 16:32
Here some people want to convince us in something they themselves contradict.
They claim the oldest I-CTS10228-* (https://yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228*/) is from Podkarpackie (Subcarpathian) region in Poland,that is southern Poland,ok fine.The TMRCA is 2300 years and that this haplogroup is Slavic,Slavs presumably living in what is now Poland.
But we had DNA from Iron Age Poland just couple days ago AND this is who lived there;

So out of 16:

8 I1 (I-M253)
- 3 I1a3a1a1a (I-L1237)
- 1 I1a2a (I-Z59)
- 4 just I-M253

4 G2a (G-P15)

1 I2a2 (I-m436)
1 R1a M420
1 R1b1 (R-L278)
1 E1b1 (E-P2)

The TMRCA of I-CTS10228-* (https://yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228*/) is in this timespan,see the results above.There was no Slavs in Poland in that time.

But more interesting is to who lived in Southern Poland,this is what member Trojet have to say;


Right but Thracians were not living only in the Roman province of Thrace.To ancient Greeks like Herodotus they were most numerous people in Europe,to Roman like Pliny the most powerful but whatever,The ancient Greeks employed the term "Thrace" to refer to all of the territory which lay north of Thessaly inhabited by the Thracians, a region which "had no definite boundaries" and to which other regions (like Macedonia and even Scythia) were added.
Thracians inhabited parts of the ancient provinces of Thrace, Moesia, Macedonia, Dacia, Scythia Minor, Sarmatia, Bithynia, Mysia, Pannonia, and other regions of the Balkans and Anatolia. This area extended over most of the Balkans region, and the Getae north of the Danube as far as beyond the Bug and including Panonia in the west.There were about 200 Thracian tribes.
For example the Tyragetae were living along the river Dniester in Ukraine,one of the name of Dniester is Tyras,that's from where they got their name.
So if in Poland according to DNA there was no Slavs 2300 years ago,who lived in southern Poland Podkarpackie? Well we have that in written history.

Conclusion;If one want to say that in southern Poland lived Slavs 2300 years ago one should say that Thracians are Slavs.

Or unless one want to claim "Celts" now or Germanics?


I-CTS10228 emerged after bottleneck 300 BC along river Vistula how Nordtvedt determined.

According territory and time it is best placed Bastarnae, next is neighbouring tribe Scirii.

No Thracian and Slavic tribes there in that time.

Thracians have important role when Bastarnae migrated on the south east.

Bastarnae mixed with Thracians and it is not controversial.

But if someone searches Thracians along river Vistula he or she can search and search.

Time is for new thread.

Nik
13-07-17, 22:54
First of all, you're not specifying which "R1a" and "I2a" clades you're talking about.
I was talking about the old R1a that possibly came to the Balkans with the IE tribes and is present among Albanians and Greeks. I might be wrong, but this is what I read here in Eupedia. So please correct if I'm wrong about the R1a among Vlachs.


Second of all how do you know that's not true. Evidence says *certain* I2a and R1a clades are Slavic.
I used the word yet, didnt I? I'm the one saying we dont know yet and you're the one claiming that CTS10228 is definitely Slavic.



Since you claim Thracians definitely had "tons" of J2a and R1a, you must know something we don't, as I'm not aware of any study that tested many Thracian remains. So we'd like to see the evidence.
Again, I'm not trying to mislead anyone or pull a Garrick-like move with fake information, but AFAIK there has been found J2a and R1a among Thracian skeletons. You're more than welcome to correct me and I'll automatically change my views on it. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "tons" since the topic is know to be full of grammar Nazis waiting for any opportunity to roast you, but it was just a logical assumptions. In any case, I take that back. Kindly read my sentence by ignoring the word "tons".


Furthermore, I see you seem to be convinced that I-CTS10228 (I2a-Din) was present among Thracians, and you're just waiting for this to be proven. I wonder who Slavicized these populations in Thrace then, since going by what you're saying, Thracians must've not been very different from present day populations.
You seem to be convinced that I'm convinced. In reality I keep mentioning in every post Dacians, Bastarnae, Scythians, Slavs, Celts.
Isn't the Slavic R1a enough evidence of ruling elite imposing their language to the rest? I believe their numbers were more than enough to gradually Slavicize tribes of shepherds over 1000 years.



And this is another area you appear to be struggling with. You seem to confuse genetics, specifically Y-DNA, with appearance/phenotype. They don't have to go in a parallel pattern.
Don't play dumb with me by feeding me kindergarten logic of not confusing genetics with appearance, unless you believe that Early Slavs were darker than Balkanites. Since I personally believe that they were indeed fairer (just like ancient Greeks perceived Scythians) and these I2a + R1a tribes moved to Herzegovina where they make up 90% of the yDna (and I'm counting the Slavic mtdna as 0% to make a point), then for what reasons do they end up looking the way they do? Is there any other admixture among Herzegovinians that we dont know of? Were the indigenous Herzegovinian women way darker than those in the surrounding areas?


Good luck getting anywhere with that attitude.
You'd be surprised but that attitude gets you wherever you want in life. I'm actually not doing bad at all.


The same racist argument can be made about any group of people whose nation has endured hardship, and is often used about third-world inhabitants in the rhetoric of those with a rather unsavory agenda. You are accepting what Stormfront is telling you that you are. How sad. I'm just glad most Albanians don't think like that.
Accepting? Rather not giving a F of what a bunch of losers think about you. And most Albanians dont give a F either and are too damn proud in case you haven't noticed.


Brother, I don't need to contribute, scientists are doing just that along with CTS10228 folks who are testing. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't contribute to that extent. All one needs to do is follow the data, and if you haven't followed this specific halpogroup closely, look at the yfull tree to get a general idea: https://yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/. As you can see all sub-branches downstream are to be found from Russia to Greece: PH908 (formed 1850ybp) found from Greece to Finland; S17250 (formed 2300ybp, TMRCA 1850ybp) found from Russian, Poland to Greece; same thing with Z17855 from Lithuania to Greece; same thing with Y4460 etc. To dig deeper, check the TMRCA dates, most branches seem to have really started to pickup steam right around 250-300 AD, which makes perfect sense when one combines this data along with the historical sources that speak of the Slavic expansion - which other population fits the bill better? Please don't mention obscure tribes that we know nothing about, when we actually have the evidence staring right at us genetically, linguistically and historically.

Thracians, Illyrians etc. where disintegrating around this time. Their golden days and when they were in full swing that were a force to recon with this specific SNP/clade was miniscule (2300ybp)....

Phenotype doesn't correlate with ydna, y chromosome makes merely one percentile of your genetic profile. Autosomal DNA is what influence phenotype and other features.
Fair enough. I hope you understand that I have no personal interest in making I2a Dacian or non-Slavic like some Albanians claim here. I'm just entitled to an opinion and I'm holding off until the evidence is conclusive.

With regards to phenotype, the only reason I can find is that the I2a + R1a tribes mixed a lot with Romanian-like Mediterranean natives in Eastern Balkans before moving to Illyricum. But then again, didn't the White Croats and Serbs from somewhere near Poland?

Leka
14-07-17, 03:07
Evidence is very conclusive that CTS10228 was part of the Slavic realm when they started expanding, that much is evident, because there is no other explanation that can make sense of how a Czech, Belarusian, Russian, Pole, Greek, Serbian, Bosnian, Croat, Bulgarian and an Albanian, on most of the sub-branches, can share a common ancestor that lived anywhere from 500 years ago to max 2300 years ago. Where Slavs got it is another matter which shouldn't concern us much to my opinion, and we might never know.

Slavs were not all blond blue/green eyed, and neither were all the Balkan folk charcoal brown - you can't simplify things to that extent. Serbs and other Balkan Slavs have other influence that they have absorbed, not just Vlahs and Albanians, but also Avars, Huns, Bulgars etc. All depends on the region, same thing with Albanians; rural isolated areas tend to be more homogeneous phenotype wise.

Garrick
14-07-17, 03:32
Again, I'm not trying to mislead anyone or pull a Garrick-like move with fake information, but AFAIK there has been found J2a and R1a among Thracian skeletons. You're more than welcome to correct me and I'll automatically change my views on it. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "tons" since the topic is know to be full of grammar Nazis waiting for any opportunity to roast you, but it was just a logical assumptions. In any case, I take that back. Kindly read my sentence by ignoring the word "tons".


About someone who spread fake information is not talked. There is fable about shepherd who twice spread false information that the wolf attacked sheeps. Third time no one paid any attention to him. And the wolf really showed up.

Back to thread. You really gave some good observations. And in the thread we can see that some people don't see woods from the trees. Therefore delusion in which they fall is deep. You noticed in private life people who know some details but they are weak analysts and misjudge the whole picture. Here in the thread is (inter alia) one very important thing that people overlook but you (intuitively) not. And it is big quality (although without insight what is in question). Congratulations.

Somewhere in the thread you wrote people in South Slavic countries have less confidence. No. Confidence is high and very high that it is not good. So high confidence can means big ego. And someone's big ego means selfishness and thinking for himself without taking other people into account, too much selfishness probably is not good for society.

Objectively has no standing on this or that side. It is for persons who are emotively on the one side. Here are given four theories and you can notice how some members, dice per dice, contribute increasing knowledge about subject. For me emotively all the same if I-CTS10228 is German, Thracian, Slavic or Illyrian marker. But intellectual curiosity. When enter in matter we need to ask questions and seek answers.

(English is not something I can boast of, but hope it is understood.)

Leka
14-07-17, 03:54
You're a typical Serb Garric, throw as much mud on the wall and see what sticks is the usual route Serbs take in these sort of discussions (like they tend to do at poreklo, where you got your bastarnea theory).

Nik
14-07-17, 12:27
Evidence is very conclusive that CTS10228 was part of the Slavic realm when they started expanding, that much is evident, because there is no other explanation that can make sense of how a Czech, Belarusian, Russian, Pole, Greek, Serbian, Bosnian, Croat, Bulgarian and an Albanian, on most of the sub-branches, can share a common ancestor that lived anywhere from 500 years ago to max 2300 years ago. Where Slavs got it is another matter which shouldn't concern us much to my opinion, and we might never know.
Well I guess we've been arguing the whole time when we're actually of the same opinion. I also believe that CTS10228 reached its current distribution partly or mostly because of the Slavs (either joined them, escaped from them, or were assimilated) and other barbarians that came from NE Europe, but unlike you I'm curious about the origin.


Slavs were not all blond blue/green eyed, and neither were all the Balkan folk charcoal brown - you can't simplify things to that extent. Serbs and other Balkan Slavs have other influence that they have absorbed, not just Vlahs and Albanians, but also Avars, Huns, Bulgars etc. All depends on the region, same thing with Albanians; rural isolated areas tend to be more homogeneous phenotype wise.
Of course, but we can still talk about population averages. AFAIK there's no unusual yDNA or mtDNA among Herzegovinians and Serbs to justify the darker pigmentation.


About someone who spread fake information is not talked. There is fable about shepherd who twice spread false information that the wolf attacked sheeps. Third time no one paid any attention to him. And the wolf really showed up.
Yeah, I don't think that has really been the case with you. You've spread fake information and got caught several times. I don't know if you did it intentionally or not though.


Back to thread. You really gave some good observations. And in the thread we can see that some people don't see woods from the trees. Therefore delusion in which they fall is deep. You noticed in private life people who know some details but they are weak analysts and misjudge the whole picture. Here in the thread is (inter alia) one very important thing that people overlook but you (intuitively) not. And it is big quality (although without insight what is in question). Congratulations.
Thank you for the kind words.


Somewhere in the thread you wrote people in South Slavic countries have less confidence. No. Confidence is high and very high that it is not good. So high confidence can means big ego. And someone's big ego means selfishness and thinking for himself without taking other people into account, too much selfishness probably is not good for society.
I don't remember saying that and I find it strange. Actually from personal experience I find South Slavs to have a lot of confidence.

Garrick
14-07-17, 13:45
You're a typical Serb Garric, throw as much mud on the wall and see what sticks is the usual route Serbs take in these sort of discussions (like they tend to do at poreklo, where you got your bastarnea theory).

No. You didn't follow earlier.

Bastarnae here introduced by Sile, he is Italian.


I think the Bastanae could be one of the sources.............moving from south Ukraine to moesia/macedonia ~300BC ..............100000 with women and children is a major number in those days

I thought about German tribe Scirii what it is not bed. They were close to Bastarnae, even I read later in some book that they mixed with Bastarnae, they could bring I-CTS10228 too. Yet Bastarnae are the main object of our attention.

What is surprise for me a lot of Albanians follow Serbian website Poreklo. It looks Much more than I do.

But Poreklo is not source of Bastarnae theory for I-CTS10228. They saw in the website Anthrogenica where Bastarnae introduced and lead very quality discussions. Maybe someone before Anthrogenica introduced Bastarnae I don't know but really there were very good arguments.

Leka
14-07-17, 18:17
Ah yeah of course Sile thought of it, it must hold true then. I would have to apologise to you, Garrik. All makes sense now, silly of me to have not seen it - Bastarnea by 300BC reached ancient Macedonia and then from there veliki Alexander himself is responsible for the rest. Done and done, we should close this thread now!

LABERIA
14-07-17, 19:20
I have a work colleague, an Albanian heritage , who says ( was told by his gfather ) albanians originate as part the Bastanae ( mixed people ) and where part of the 80000 contingent that went from the south Carpathians mountain area to Macedonia to help Philip of Macedon defeat the advancing illyrians from the north .......I think it was about 350BC

I doubt that..........but the bastanae ....where a bastard people of different races
This is how Bastarnae was introduced in this forum. Unbelievable.

Sile
14-07-17, 20:31
This is how Bastarnae was introduced in this forum. Unbelievable.

ROFL, you seem to be in panic mode

Are you saying the bastarnae never existed ?

Are you saying the ancient historians fabricated these people?


or maybe , I should not listen to my scholared albanian friend from Resena macedonia and state that everything which is outside of the borders of albania is a lie like you seem to do!

Garrick
14-07-17, 20:38
@Leka @Laberia
It's not helping.
In the meantime, much has been learned.
Knowledge is power.

Azzurro
14-07-17, 20:40
I personally do not believe that I-CTS10228 was from this Germanic Bastarnae tribe, we have seen some ancient Germanic dna and there is no hints that I-CTS10228 was among them. I have an alternative theory on this origin of I-CTS10228, as I-CTS10228 itself was not slavic but its downstreams were very likely amongst proto-Slavs and became Slavic. I think I-CTS10228 was in fact originally a Scythian line, as the Scythians are one of the groups that form the Slavs. The following downstreams of I-CTS10228 are Slavic I-Z17855, I-S8201, and I-S17250 which is a huge line.

Leka
14-07-17, 20:47
This is how Bastarnae was introduced in this forum. Unbelievable.
I see, thanks Laberia. So after all we are not the Bastarnea as he postulated back then, the bastard people as he puts it, but Slavs are. Really nice, me like so far where this is going.

Azzurro
14-07-17, 20:56
I see, thanks Laberia. So after all we are not the Bastarnea as he postulated back then, the bastard people as he puts it, but Slavs are. Really nice, me like so far where this is going.

How can anyone think the Albanians are the descendants of the Bastarnae? There is no link between Albanians and Germanic peoples, Shqiptaret are the descendants of Illyrians.

Garrick
14-07-17, 21:07
I personally do not believe that I-CTS10228 was from this Germanic Bastarnae tribe, we have seen some ancient Germanic dna and there is no hints that I-CTS10228 was among them. I have an alternative theory on this origin of I-CTS10228, as I-CTS10228 itself was not slavic but its downstreams were very likely amongst proto-Slavs and became Slavic. I think I-CTS10228 was in fact originally a Scythian line, as the Scythians are one of the groups that form the Slavs. The following downstreams of I-CTS10228 are Slavic I-Z17855, I-S8201, and I-S17250 which is a huge line.

Azzuro

And I thought something similar but after intensive reading of matter I changed opinion.

Because for I-CTS10228 is key Zarubintsy culture. Pan Slavist scientists did all to prove that Zarubintsy was Slavic.

But no. Scientific papers of Ukrainian scientists showed that Zarubintsy culture was mostly Bastarnaian and what is important too that Bastarnae was German tribe.

Nothing Scythian although it is possible that Bastarnae also had Celtic elements.

What is logic German/Celtic because they were first along river of Vistula. It is too west for Scythian, Sarmatian, Slavic and Thracian in that time (300 BC).

Now much is known in science, and scientists are certainly working to identify Bastarnae YDNA.

What is not so easy because Bastarnae burned bodies till 900 degree Celsius.

But sooner or later it will be determined.

Milan.M
14-07-17, 21:17
Garick enough with that Bastarnae,you said it and done.There was no Zarubintsy culture DNA,no Proto-Slavic,no Getic/Thracian and no Bastarnian DNA yet.Your "theory" is nothing more than theories said by others here.Everyone believe what he likes at the end of the day,you said it already many times.Also Nordvedt connected I2a din with the Slavs from Poland, a typical charlatan and hobbyst i am saying that from day one, and I was right there was no Slavs in iron age Poland according to DNA.So enough with his "theories" too.

Azzurro
14-07-17, 21:28
Azzuro

And I thought something similar but after intensive reading of matter I changed opinion.

Because for I-CTS10228 is key Zarubintsy culture. Pan Slavist scientists did all to prove that Zarubintsy was Slavic.

But no. Scientific papers of Ukrainian scientists showed that Zarubintsy culture was mostly Bastarnaian and what is important too that Bastarnae was German tribe.

Nothing Scythian although it is possible that Bastarnae also had Celtic elements.

What is logic German/Celtic because they were first along river of Vistula. It is too west for Scythian, Sarmatian, Slavic and Thracian in that time (300 BC).

Now much is known in science, and scientists are certainly working to identify Bastarnae YDNA.

What is not so easy because Bastarnae burned bodies till 900 degree Celsius.

But sooner or later it will be determined.

Garrick,

You should re-evaluate the Scythian connection, I'll give you a very good example, let's look at the I-A2512 branch which is belongs mostly to Greeks and Ashkenazim, this line forms around 2100 ybp, now it can't be the Bastarnae because they never settled in Greece, but there was Scythians in Greece which makes the Scythian connection more plausible in this case.

Sile
14-07-17, 21:42
I personally do not believe that I-CTS10228 was from this Germanic Bastarnae tribe, we have seen some ancient Germanic dna and there is no hints that I-CTS10228 was among them. I have an alternative theory on this origin of I-CTS10228, as I-CTS10228 itself was not slavic but its downstreams were very likely amongst proto-Slavs and became Slavic. I think I-CTS10228 was in fact originally a Scythian line, as the Scythians are one of the groups that form the Slavs. The following downstreams of I-CTS10228 are Slavic I-Z17855, I-S8201, and I-S17250 which is a huge line.

Are not the scythian too late in time for your scenario............maybe you mean sarmatians

Sile
14-07-17, 21:49
How can anyone think the Albanians are the descendants of the Bastarnae? There is no link between Albanians and Germanic peoples, Shqiptaret are the descendants of Illyrians.

The ancient DNA of the 2 do not match..................the bulk of illyrians have a northern/danubian/central european group of haplotypes, while Albanians and greeks have more anatolian/east med. haplotype ...............your connection is fickle

Garrick
14-07-17, 21:54
Garrick,

You should re-evaluate the Scythian connection, I'll give you a very good example, let's look at the I-A2512 branch which is belongs mostly to Greeks and Ashkenazim, this line forms around 2100 ybp, now it can't be the Bastarnae because they never settled in Greece, but there was Scythians in Greece which makes the Scythian connection more plausible in this case.

Azzuro

Even there are opinions that Bastarnae partly was Scythian.

But I think it has explanation.

Bastarnae arrived too south and east that they mixed with Thracians and Sarmatians. And it is possible with Scythians too, they were close.

What I see as main problem is psychological for Bastarnae theory which has very good foundations with regard evidence Zarubintsy culture was mostly Bastarnaian.

For a lot of Slavs is hard accepted fact that big part of Slavs is origin German. It is much easier that they are Thracians, Scythians, Celts etc.

But it is only psychological, paths of haplogroups don't follow pan-national rules and borders.

Bastarnae mixed with Thracians and Sarmatians and maybe Scythians, too. They arrived too east and south from Vistula homeland.

Therefore it is not simply to say German, because it is long process mixed a lot of different groups (Germans, Celts, Sarmatians, Thracians, Scythians etc.) in very complex Slavic ethnogenesis.

Kiev culture is first culture for which someone can say it is Slavic, and Bastarnaian Zarubintsy culture was one of foundations to the Kiev culture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev_culture

Milan.M
14-07-17, 21:56
Garrick,

You should re-evaluate the Scythian connection, I'll give you a very good example, let's look at the I-A2512 branch which is belongs mostly to Greeks and Ashkenazim, this line forms around 2100 ybp, now it can't be the Bastarnae because they never settled in Greece, but there was Scythians in Greece which makes the Scythian connection more plausible in this case.
I'll tell you the "Scythian" connection,that is the Getic/Thracian connection.
First appearing in the 6th century bc, the Getae were subjected to Scythian (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Scythian) influence and were known as expert mounted archers.
I believe that was one of major lineages among them,i am however not excluding that this haplogroup was present among others.

Scythian simply mean an archer most probably and this name was applied to nomads,the Getae too were called Scythians because had more nomadic lifestyle than other Thracians.
Thracians spread it in Greece,especialy north Greece and others parts were settled by Thracians.

Old name of the Sclavenes is this one,it is very easy to grasp if one read ancient authors.

That's my theory YAY!!

LABERIA
14-07-17, 22:19
How can anyone think the Albanians are the descendants of the Bastarnae? There is no link between Albanians and Germanic peoples, Shqiptaret are the descendants of Illyrians.
Excuse me, you don`t read it? It was told to Sile by a work colleague, etc, etc, etc.

zanipolo
14-07-17, 22:50
I'll tell you the "Scythian" connection,that is the Getic/Thracian connection.
First appearing in the 6th century bc, the Getae were subjected to Scythian (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Scythian) influence and were known as expert mounted archers.
I believe that was one of major lineages among them,i am however not excluding that this haplogroup was present among others.

Scythian simply mean an archer most probably and this name was applied to nomads,the Getae too were called Scythians because had more nomadic lifestyle than other Thracians.
Thracians spread it in Greece,especialy north Greece and others parts were settled by Thracians.

Old name of the Sclavenes is this one,it is very easy to grasp if one read ancient authors.

That's my theory YAY!!

some people say scythians and sarmatians are the same people and some say they are not, which is true?

Milan.M
14-07-17, 23:17
some people say scythians and sarmatians are the same people and some say they are not, which is true?
I believe that Scythian was a term for nomads,since it was used for peoples from different origin Getic/Thracians,Bulgarians,Alans,Iranian tribes etc

While Sarmatians was first applied for people living east of Tanais according to Herodotus,sea of Azov which was still part of "Scythia" i guess,however later applied to people along black sea,European Sarmatia bordered Germania,while Asiatic Sarmatia was the Eastern part including Tanais,Cimmerian Bosporus etc,not clear explanation of the name.

I guess the name has it's origin either in their status/occupation,life style or the land they inhabited.

Trojet
14-07-17, 23:38
Azzurro, I wouldn't waste my time with Garrick, Sile (aka Vettor from Anthrogenica), and the likes. Clearly, they have been spending the last six years at Eupedia trashing and spamming Albanian threads, or anything related to Albanians for that matter.

I can imagine that even if there was a large Illyrian Y-DNA study that found predominantly E1b-V13, J2b2-L283, R1b-BY611 and PF7562 in their remains (the main HGs among Albanians), they would still deny any connection with Albanians.

Garrick
15-07-17, 00:17
Azzurro, I wouldn't waste my time with Garrick, Sile (aka Vettor from Anthrogenica), and the likes. Clearly, they have been spending the last six years at Eupedia trashing and spamming Albanian threads or anything related to Albanians for that matter.


You "invent" "I2a-Slavic" marker for I-CTS10228?

Trojet
15-07-17, 00:36
You "invent" "I2a-Slavic" marker for I-CTS10228?

I'm going by what the evidence and actual researchers in this field say, and not some Eupedia spammers posting misleading information like here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29041-I2a-Din-came-to-the-Balkans-and-Dinaric-Alps-with-the-Thracians-Dacians-Illyrians/page22?p=512387&viewfull=1#post512387) and here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29041-I2a-Din-came-to-the-Balkans-and-Dinaric-Alps-with-the-Thracians-Dacians-Illyrians/page28?p=513385&viewfull=1#post513385).

Among others, the admin of Serbian DNA Project states this:

"The Serbs are predominantly descendants of the Slavs. Y-haplogroups which are genetically of Slavic signature are I2a-CTS10228 (also knows as I2a-Dinaric), R1a-Z280, and R1a-M458, which all together make up over half of Serbian paternal lineages."

Source: http://dnk.poreklo.rs/genetska-slika-lepenskog-vira-vince/

Have a nice day!

Azzurro
15-07-17, 00:53
Azzurro, I wouldn't waste my time with Garrick, Sile (aka Vettor from Anthrogenica), and the likes. Clearly, they have been spending the last six years at Eupedia trashing and spamming Albanian threads, or anything related to Albanians for that matter.

I can imagine that even if there was a large Illyrian Y-DNA study that found predominantly E1b-V13, J2b2-L283, R1b-BY611 and PF7562 in their remains (the main HGs among Albanians), they would still deny any connection with Albanians.

Trojet, I never understood all this Albanian hate (it must be an agenda thing), there is clear evidence that Albanians are the direct descendants of Illyrians even linguistically speaking Albanian is language Isolate and the main HG's E1b-V13, J2b2-L283, R1b-BY611 and PF7562 are all Balkan in origin, I wonder do people think this a magical arrangement? The obvious answer is Albanians are descendants of Illyrians and the Albanian language was one of various Illyrian languages spoken, there was even an Illyrian tribe called Albani who happened to live in Albania along with the Taulantii, the evidence is clear, Albanians are very likely a mixture of these two Illyrian tribes.

Garrick
15-07-17, 01:16
@Trojet
This is not offense and with good intention, whole Internet will make jokes with you.

I say this kindly, with good intentions, all the knowledge points out that the I-CTS10228 did not originate among the Slavs and it cannot be "I2a-Slav" as you "invented".

It is always best to call the haplogroup in its right name, in this case: I-CTS10228.

Sile
15-07-17, 02:16
Trojet, I never understood all this Albanian hate (it must be an agenda thing), there is clear evidence that Albanians are the direct descendants of Illyrians even linguistically speaking Albanian is language Isolate and the main HG's E1b-V13, J2b2-L283, R1b-BY611 and PF7562 are all Balkan in origin, I wonder do people think this a magical arrangement? The obvious answer is Albanians are descendants of Illyrians and the Albanian language was one of various Illyrian languages spoken, there was even an Illyrian tribe called Albani who happened to live in Albania along with the Taulantii, the evidence is clear, Albanians are very likely a mixture of these two Illyrian tribes.

there is no liguistic proof, there is no archeological proof, the DNA does not match...........to claim an ancient race based on less than 10% of these peoples and lands is the same as saying all Gallic people are italians because Italians have some gallic markers

the Albani was first announced in 150AD ...........that is 1000 years later than when the illyrian are first noted in east Austria ( noricum )

Bergin
15-07-17, 04:32
there is no liguistic proof, there is no archeological proof, the DNA does not match...........to claim an ancient race based on less than 10% of these peoples and lands is the same as saying all Gallic people are italians because Italians have some gallic markers

the Albani was first announced in 150AD ...........that is 1000 years later than when the illyrian are first noted in east Austria ( noricum )

Sile, the topic is I2a-din!
Your opinion about Albanians is not of any relevance here.



@Trojet
Just because someone makes 100 mistakes, it does not justify to make even 1 mistake.

Far by an inch, far by a mile!

I2a-din is probably called as such because in most of the actual measures (modern populations) it highlights a geographic connotation.

I2a-Slav was a mistake, just accept it. We all make mistakes.

Please don't put emotions above critical thinking!

mobileacc200
15-07-17, 05:06
So what are you guys debating here? Even birds on trees know that I2-cts10228 is Slavic marker and it was brought by Slavs on Balkan. Evidence is overwhelming..

mobileacc200
15-07-17, 05:07
Double post

Milan.M
15-07-17, 06:12
I never denied the Getic (Slavic) origin of I2a din.This without fuss will explain you why Romanians,Moldavians and many Vlachs are the same geneticaly especialy with their South-Slavic neighbors despite speaking different languages.They descent from this and alike tribes.Whether one is pleased by it or not,the chronicles say old name of Sclavenes is Getae.The more north Slavs have more Wendish ancestry therefore more R1a,this admixture and kin has much longer history.

Bergin
15-07-17, 06:44
I never denied the Getic (Slavic) origin of I2a din.This without fuss will explain you why Romanians,Moldavians and many Vlachs are the same geneticaly especialy with their South-Slavic neighbors despite speaking different languages.They descent from this and alike tribes.Whether one is pleased by it or not,the chronicles say old name of Sclavenes is Getae.The more north Slavs have more Wendish ancestry therefore more R1a,this admixture and kin has much longer history.

Sorry Milan, but I really am so angry at this entire thread.

If history would say that Getae is Slavic(if so), then great. But what does it have to do with genetics?


If you don't know the Y-Dna of Getae (and we don't), then you have zero right to connect it with anything (scientifically speaking).

So do you know the Y-DNA of Getae?
Science is not an opinion.

Milan.M
15-07-17, 06:54
I have their contemporaries Bergin saying this,so far I trust them much more than any modern interpretations,imaginations and wishful thinking disscused here.Everyone here has zero right to connect it with different peoples according to you then, but they does.

Bergin
15-07-17, 09:21
I have their contemporaries Bergin saying this,so far I trust them much more than any modern interpretations,imaginations and wishful thinking disscused here.Everyone here has zero right to connect it with different peoples according to you then, but they does.


Milan, I apologize if I sounded rude. Clearly everyone has right to opinions. Honestly, I am not trained neither in history nor genetics.
It is just that with this thread it is getting harder by the second to learn something solid - but the topic is so interesting.

I don't have any monopoly on rights to connect, that was a lapsus.
What I was tying to say was that:
if we want to rely purely on History, then fine, but is going to be based on ancient scripts and should already be stated in modern history books.
If we want to rely purely on Genetics, then we need Y-DNA matches in reasonable numbers (at least more than 1).

Milan.M
15-07-17, 10:14
Well Bergin you are right but for example there is couple hypothesis about Slavic homeland alone,the most accepted one back in the days was Western Ukraine,that is the mainstream thesis too.However there is respected scholars with much different views, and many recently.The same is true about IE thesis most accepted is Kurgan but there is other theories.Edit; better to cut this short and not going in another topic.

Garrick
15-07-17, 11:49
Garick enough with that Bastarnae,you said it and done.There was no Zarubintsy culture DNA,no Proto-Slavic,no Getic/Thracian and no Bastarnian DNA yet.Your "theory" is nothing more than theories said by others here.Everyone believe what he likes at the end of the day,you said it already many times.Also Nordvedt connected I2a din with the Slavs from Poland, a typical charlatan and hobbyst i am saying that from day one, and I was right there was no Slavs in iron age Poland according to DNA.So enough with his "theories" too. In territorial relations Nordtvedt determined emergence of I2a Din along Vistula river (today's Poland). In time relations Nordtvedt determined TMRCA for I2a Din, similar result achieved Klyosov. YFull team uses this result. Yes using some another methods TMRCA can be some older but not so much. People who thought that TMRCA for I2a Din is much bigger were disappointed. But what is more important: belief in something what is illusion or rely on facts. In first case science cannot help. Nordtvedt is scientist PhD. Yes he is physicist not genetic genealogist but he is serious researcher. He used scientific methods. Someone can be critical and it is desirable, but it does not make benefits to say that Nordtvedt is charlatan.

Trojet
15-07-17, 13:56
@Trojet
Just because someone makes 100 mistakes, it does not justify to make even 1 mistake.

Far by an inch, far by a mile!

Not sure where you're going with this.


I2a-din is probably called as such because in most of the actual measures (modern populations) it highlights a geographic connotation.

I2a-Slav was a mistake, just accept it. We all make mistakes.

Please don't put emotions above critical thinking!

If you'd like to understand Genetics better, I suggest you stop paying attention to fairy tales from users like Garrick, Sile, etc, and read other respectable forums. The reason why it was named as "Din" was because of the high concentration of it in the Dinaric Alps, before there was a SNP designation for it. Keep in mind that statistically speaking, there are far more carriers of I-CTS10228 (Din) in Eastern and Western Slavic countries than Southern ones. And no, I don't see why it's a "mistake" to call it I2a-Slavic, since we're talking about the specific I2a that's found overwhelmingly in the Slavic countries (East, West, South). There is some who call I2a-M26 as "Sardinian" since it's found overwhelmingly in Sardinia. Obviously, you or anyone else don't have to call it as such.

Similarly, there is younger mutations of Y-haplogroups which are found overwhelmingly in Albanian populations and almost inexistent in others, so such clusters can be called "Albanian".


Please don't put emotions above critical thinking!

Not sure what "emotions" you're taking about, either. I honestly have no personal interest in this, besides just pointing out what the facts and evidence are.

Garrick
15-07-17, 20:33
@Trojet

You love Serbian site Poreklo.

However they say that for sample I5236 (location Padina, Serbia, 8753-8351 BC) is confirmed only that it is I-P37 and it is neither confirmed it is negative for M-423 nor positive for M-423. You claim that it is negative for M-423 (without quotation the source).

Someone of you is wrong for sample I5236. I can check at one of authors of the paper, and I will do when that question is actual for me, for now other issues are more urgent.

...
And we know that I-P37 (positive for M-423) was in Paleolithic Europe, in the Balkans (no matter it confirmed or sooner or later).

According to Nordtvedt:

https://lundiak.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/i_haplogroup_migration_map_by_ken_via_ppt.png

...
For this thread it is not important.

Here is important in which population I-CTS10228 emerged, spread and how it came to the Balkans.

You claim I-CTS10228 emerged among Slavs and it should be called according your "invention" "I2a-Slav".

mobileacc200
15-07-17, 20:39
For sure, I2a-CTS10228 can be called I2a-Slav because it is so represented among Slavic countries that it cant be anything else. Balkan is not even important there are milions and milions of I2a-Slav from Russia to Moldova, Ukraine, Poland... And they have variations while entire clade is pretty young.

What's wrong with calling it I2a-Slav?

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a40 using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Garrick
15-07-17, 20:50
Are not the scythian too late in time for your scenario............maybe you mean sarmatians

Generally yes, but Scythians still cannot be excluded.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/Rome_and_the_Barbarians_in_Eastern_and_Central_Eur ope_around_100_AD_by_Shchukin.png?1499623021690

Although people often confuse Scythians and Sarmatians.

And there are disputes, for example if Roxolani were Sarmatians or remote of Scythian peoples.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roxolani

Trojet
15-07-17, 20:54
@Trojet

You love Serbian site Poreklo.

However they say that for sample I5236 (location Padina, Serbia, 8753-8351 BC) is confirmed only that it is I-P37 and it is neither confirmed it is negative for M-423 nor positive for M-423. You claim that it is negative for M-423 (without quotation the source).

Please read my comment about sample I5236 (I-P37) from a month ago in case you missed it, when I said since the authors didn't report M423 or L621, this sample is negative for them: www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29041-I2a-Din-came-to-the-Balkans-and-Dinaric-Alps-with-the-Thracians-Dacians-Illyrians/page8?p=511700#post511700

For sample I5236 to be the "forefather" of I-CTS10228 as you claimed, he needs to be proven positive not only for M423 but also for some L621 SNPs, as this sample comes from 10500 years ago, and by then I-L621 SNPs would have started developing: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L621/

Garrick
15-07-17, 21:01
For sure, I2a-CTS10228 can be called I2a-Slav because it is so represented among Slavic countries that it cant be anything else. Balkan is not even important there are milions and milions of I2a-Slav from Russia to Moldova, Ukraine, Poland... And they have variations while entire clade is pretty young.

What's wrong with calling it I2a-Slav?

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a40 using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

No. It is nonsense. Haplogroups have unique names. You can see nomenclature system for Y-DNA haplogroups:
https://isogg.org/wiki/Y-DNA_project_help

Different people, populations, nations can have same haplogroup. For example I-CTS10228 can be found among many European nations in different percents. But if someone "invents" new name for haplogroup as "I2a-Slav" it is different story. It means Romanians or Moldavians or Albanians etc. who have "I2a-Slav" haplogroup are identified as Slavs, what is nonsense.

And Trojet is wrong. Because I-CTS10228 was not emerged among Slavs and several hundred years Germans, Celts, Sarmatians, Thracians/Dacians, Scythians etc spread this haplogroup without Slavs. Slavic ethnogenesis is very complex and a lot of very different people/populations/tribes contributed.

Sile
15-07-17, 21:53
Not sure where you're going with this.



If you'd like to understand Genetics better, I suggest you stop paying attention to fairy tales from users like Garrick, Sile, etc, and read other respectable forums. The reason why it was named as "Din" was because of the high concentration of it in the Dinaric Alps, before there was a SNP designation for it. Keep in mind that statistically speaking, there are far more carriers of I-CTS10228 (Din) in Eastern and Western Slavic countries than Southern ones. And no, I don't see why it's a "mistake" to call it I2a-Slavic, since we're talking about the specific I2a that's found overwhelmingly in the Slavic countries (East, West, South). There is some who call I2a-M26 as "Sardinian" since it's found overwhelmingly in Sardinia. Obviously, you or anyone else don't have to call it as such.

Similarly, there is younger mutations of Y-haplogroups which are found overwhelmingly in Albanian populations and almost inexistent in others, so such clusters can be called "Albanian".



Not sure what "emotions" you're taking about, either. I honestly have no personal interest in this, besides just pointing out what the facts and evidence are.

You do not know what you are talking about in regards to cts10228.............it was formed 3650BC in south-central poland and slovakia lands ( upper vistula mountainous areas as well ) ..............There where no slavs in those places in the time of 3650BC

You need to stop placing modern nations and linking them to ancient places ...............they do not match...............you assume too much

mobileacc200
15-07-17, 22:15
No. It is nonsense.

Trojet is wrong. Because I-CTS10228 was not emerged among Slavs and several hundred years Germans, Celts, Sarmatians, Thracians/Dacians, Scythians etc spread this haplogroup.


Thracians, Sarmathians, Scythians spread I2a-10228??

Where do you pull this info and how you come to these theories?

Trojet
15-07-17, 22:32
You do not know what you are talking about in regards to cts10228.............it was formed 3650BC in south-central poland and slovakia lands ( upper vistula mountainous areas as well ) ..............There where no slavs in those places in the time of 3650BC

You need to stop placing modern nations and linking them to ancient places ...............they do not match...............you assume too much

According to the current YFull tree, the I-CTS10228 mutation could be as old as 5300 years or as young as 2300 years (formed 5300, TMRCA 2300). The reason is because there is about 29 SNPs involved and we don't know in which order they would have happened as there is no sample that tested negative for one of those SNPs.

However, in the next version of the YFull tree, there should be a split, since from what I understood, sample YF09727 FRA tested negative for some of those 29 SNPs but positive for CTS10228 mutation itself, so CTS10228 should move upstream.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/

When we associate it with Slavic expansions, we talk about its downstream clades which start expanding about 2300 ybp (TMRCA), at the time when Slavs or Proto-Slavs existed and started expanding, and not his ancient ancestor who lived some 5300 ybp. Why so, because among other reasons, such young clades with a TMRCA of only 2300 ybp and less are widespread throughout the Slavic countries and rare in other places.

Garrick
15-07-17, 22:41
Thracians, Sarmathians, Scythians spread I2a-10228??

Where do you pull this info and how you come to these theories?

You should read many pages in this thread. And not only in this thread and Eupedia, you can read other forums and sources. You can agree or disagree with what various contributors wrote, but they gave some arguments.

I-CTS10228 emerged after bottleneck 300 BC along river Vistula. The most appropriate tribe according time and geography is German tribe Bastarnae. Some scholars speak about Celtic origin of this tribe or mixed German-Celtic origin. This tribe migrated in the south-east in area surrounded by Thracians (Getae-Dacians) and Sarmatians. Bastarnae mixed with both of them. Also Bastarnae several time were in Balkans and mixed with Balkan Thracian.

And I am very careful when speak about Scythians but they cannot be completely excluded. They mixed with Sarmatians, Thracians, etc. and they could have this haplogroup too.

Garrick
15-07-17, 23:00
Please read my comment about sample I5236 (I-P37) from a month ago in case you missed it, when I said since the authors didn't report M423 or L621, this sample is negative for them: www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29041-I2a-Din-came-to-the-Balkans-and-Dinaric-Alps-with-the-Thracians-Dacians-Illyrians/page8?p=511700#post511700 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29041-I2a-Din-came-to-the-Balkans-and-Dinaric-Alps-with-the-Thracians-Dacians-Illyrians/page8?p=511700#post511700) For sample I5236 to be the "forefather" of I-CTS10228 as you claimed, he needs to be proven positive not only for M423 but also for some L621 SNPs, as this sample comes from 10500 years ago, and by then I-L621 SNPs would have started developing: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L621/ You like Poreklo, they say one thing you the opposite. Someone is wrong. Definitely I will check at authors of paper and I will inform.
According to the current YFull tree, the I-CTS10228 mutation could be as old as 5300 years or as young as 2300 years (formed 5300, TMRCA 2300). The reason is because there is about 29 SNPs involved and we don't know in which order they would have happened as there is no sample that tested negative for one of those SNPs. However, in the next version of the YFull tree, there should be a split, since from what I understood, sample YF09727 FRA tested negative for some of those 29 SNPs but positive for CTS10228 mutation itself, so CTS10228 should move upstream. https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/ When we associate it with Slavic expansions, we talk about its downstream clades which start expanding about 2300 ybp, at the time when Slavs or Proto-Slavs existed and started expanding, and not his ancient ancestor who lived some 5300 ybp. Why so, because among other reasons, such young clades with a TMRCA of only 2300 ybp and less are widespread throughout the Slavic countries and rare in other places. You claim Slavs or proto-Slavs existed 300 BC in upper stream of Vistula?! No one source mentions it. Maybe you investigated and found?

Sile
16-07-17, 01:08
According to the current YFull tree, the I-CTS10228 mutation could be as old as 5300 years or as young as 2300 years (formed 5300, TMRCA 2300). The reason is because there is about 29 SNPs involved and we don't know in which order they would have happened as there is no sample that tested negative for one of those SNPs.

However, in the next version of the YFull tree, there should be a split, since from what I understood, sample YF09727 FRA tested negative for some of those 29 SNPs but positive for CTS10228 mutation itself, so CTS10228 should move upstream.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/

When we associate it with Slavic expansions, we talk about its downstream clades which start expanding about 2300 ybp (TMRCA), at the time when Slavs or Proto-Slavs existed and started expanding, and not his ancient ancestor who lived some 5300 ybp. Why so, because among other reasons, such young clades with a TMRCA of only 2300 ybp and less are widespread throughout the Slavic countries and rare in other places.


the french person will only confirm that he migrated from south Poland area.

what and where was the negative cts10228 found...............this will give a better understanding

in regards to 2300ybp ( Tmrca )..............this only means the year is 350BC .........you are not saying that there where slavs in south Poland lands in 350BC , are you?

Garrick
16-07-17, 02:09
Even Stalin's archeologists and historians who tried look for proto-Slavs/Slavs practically everywhere but they didn't speak about proto-Slavs/Slavs in upper Vistula area 300 BC.

They saw proto-Slavs in Upper Paleolithic cultures in today's areas of Ukraine and Russia, they spoke about Slavic colonies in the Elba even Hamburg but during second half of first millennia new era, nothing about 300 BC along upper-middle Vistula.

I gave Ptolomy chart 150 AD (even 450 years after emergence of I-CTS10228 after bottleneck) Tabula Europae VIII, we see a lot different tribes (Celtic, German, Thracian/Dacian, Sarmatian etc.), and nobody answered, question was: Where are Slavs?

mobileacc200
16-07-17, 17:07
You should read many pages in this thread. And not only in this thread and Eupedia, you can read other forums and sources. You can agree or disagree with what various contributors wrote, but they gave some arguments.

I-CTS10228 emerged after bottleneck 300 BC along river Vistula. The most appropriate tribe according time and geography is German tribe Bastarnae. Some scholars speak about Celtic origin of this tribe or mixed German-Celtic origin. This tribe migrated in the south-east in area surrounded by Thracians (Getae-Dacians) and Sarmatians. Bastarnae mixed with both of them. Also Bastarnae several time were in Balkans and mixed with Balkan Thracian.

And I am very careful when speak about Scythians but they cannot be completely excluded. They mixed with Sarmatians, Thracians, etc. and they could have this haplogroup too.


So, Sarmatians, Thracians, Dacians, German tribes like Bastarnae and also Celts all carried I2a-Din?

If Thracians have carried it, it would be all over Greeks, Albanians and Italians..

When its not but its strongly associated only with Slavs and their expansions like Early Medieval one into a Balkan..

Seems you just throwing theories and im yet waiting for some better explanation. Do you have ancient Sarmatian dna sample tested as I2a-Slav or this is just another theory (wish) of yours?

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DuPidh
16-07-17, 19:55
You should read many pages in this thread. And not only in this thread and Eupedia, you can read other forums and sources. You can agree or disagree with what various contributors wrote, but they gave some arguments.I-CTS10228 emerged after bottleneck 300 BC along river Vistula. The most appropriate tribe according time and geography is German tribe Bastarnae. Some scholars speak about Celtic origin of this tribe or mixed German-Celtic origin. This tribe migrated in the south-east in area surrounded by Thracians (Getae-Dacians) and Sarmatians. Bastarnae mixed with both of them. Also Bastarnae several time were in Balkans and mixed with Balkan Thracian.And I am very careful when speak about Scythians but they cannot be completely excluded. They mixed with Sarmatians, Thracians, etc. and they could have this haplogroup too. Here are some major flaw with your reasoning:a) South Slavs have in general over 35% of their male lineages I2a. Had it been true that I2a originated in some other place besides Slavs it would have shown in mtDNA composition of South Slavs. Which means had it Celts been the original carriers, Celtic genes would have been part of Slavic populations gene pool, which surprisingly are not. Slavic Dna does not show affinities with Celtic countriesb) There is no need for more needles debate

mobileacc200
16-07-17, 20:47
Even if only 5% Russians carried I2a Din, Balkan is totally insignificant in numbers. And where is Ukraine, Poland, Slovakia, Romania, Moldova, Belarus, all countries with milions of I2a-Slav, and they have variations.
I
Looks like I2a2-Din were Slavicized by R1a and since then they are together forming Slavic ethnogenesis.

Now what people were I2a2-Din before getting Slavicized is hard to tell but doubtfully Sarmatians, Celts or Thracians..

Most likely some farming passive native society.

Their expansion is associated with R1a Slavic expansions..

I2a2-Din is undoubtfully Slavic just as R1a, no matter if they were not Slavs in one point of their history, their bloom and expansion is strongly tied with Slavs.

Even tho they have distant Sardinian or Celtic relatives, speaking of CTS10228, there is almost no more Slavic marker besides R1a.

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Sile
16-07-17, 20:50
Here are some major flaw with your reasoning:a) South Slavs have in general over 35% of their male lineages I2a. Had it been true that I2a originated in some other place besides Slavs it would have shown in mtDNA composition of South Slavs. Which means had it Celts been the original carriers, Celtic genes would have been part of Slavic populations gene pool, which surprisingly are not. Slavic Dna does not show affinities with Celtic countriesb) There is no need for more needles debate

The oldest written people known as Illyrians came from east-austria , pannonia, ............everyone knows they had G2a and I2a markers

these bronze-age illyrians moved slowly in a north-east direction form modern Vienna to be involved in the bronze age amber trail trade . this I2a also went into Italy, croatia, Bosnia etc...................and yes , the celts absorbed the illyrians in austria from ~700BC and continued to absorb them into celtic society as far south as northern Serbia ( you should know from there the celts failed in their invasion of Greece ).................the slavs would have absorbed "illyrian" markers because they absorbed illyrian-celts

Not all of one haplogroup belongs to one people .................so what I2a do you refer to as certain subclades belong to different areas ................I also hope you are not one of these people that think R1a is only a slavic marker

Sile
16-07-17, 21:14
a 2004-2006 study by Rootsi and spanish scholars on ancient illyrians

name legend below:
Autariates = Bosnia
Delmatae = Pannonia
Noricum = East-Austria
Taulanti = Montenegro and Albania
Dardanians = Croatia
Histri = Istria
Veneti = North-East Italy
Japodes = Slovenia
Liburni = Italians and Croats

RESULTS AND DISCUSSION
The results of the frequencies of selected haplogroups analyzed in present populations living in
historically Illyrian area indicate clear differences in their distribution (Table 1).

Haplogroup I
(I1b-P37): The highest frequency is found for
haplogroup I1b-P37 (Rootsi et al., 2004), in the historical
continental areas of
Autariates (63.80%)
Delmatae (48%),
Noricum (20%)
Taulanti (17%),
Dardanians (13.50%)
Liburni (9.5%),
Veneti (0.5%).
This haplogroup is not present in the populations from the areas settled by
Japodes and Histri.

Haplogroup R
(R1b-M137): The highest frequency distribution of R1b-M173 (Kivisild et al., 2003) in the area of
Veneti (62%),
Autariates (27.27%)
Japodes (26.67%),
Noricum (21%),
Histri (18.18%),
Taulantii (17.60%),
Liburni (16.40%),
Dardanians (14.55%) and
Delmatae (7.06%).

Haplogroup R1a:
Its frequency peaks are in north-western areas of
Histri (45.45%),
Liburni (38.40%)
Noricum (37%),
Delmatae (22.58%),
Japodes (13.33%)
Autariates (12.10%),
Taulanti (9.80%)
Dardanians (8.82%).
This haplogroup is absent in the area of Veneti.

Haplogrupa E
(E3b1-M78): The frequencies in our sample are the following:
Dardanians (36.80%),
Taulantii (27%),
Japodes (13.33%),
Veneti (10.40%),
Histri (9.09%),
Autariates (8.50%)
Delmatae (4.66%).
In the area of Noricum this haplogroup is absent.

Haplogroup J (J2-M172):
The frequency peak is found in
Dardanians (15.02%)
Taulanti (14.30%),
Liburni (10.90%),
Veneti (9.60%)
Japodes (6.67%),
Delmatae (2.09%)
Autariates (1.40%).
It is absent in Noricum and the area of Histri

mobileacc200
16-07-17, 21:23
Again dreams of Autariates, Taulanti, Liburni and other ancient tribes that carried no I2a-Din nor Slavic R1a and obvious ignoring of Russia, Moldova, Belarus, Poland, Ukraine, Slovakia and other closest I2a-Slav relatives.. And really not so distant ones since I2a-Din has low TMRCA.

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Garrick
16-07-17, 21:32
So, Sarmatians, Thracians, Dacians, German tribes like Bastarnae and also Celts all carried I2a-Din?

If Thracians have carried it, it would be all over Greeks, Albanians and Italians..

When its not but its strongly associated only with Slavs and their expansions like Early Medieval one into a Balkan..

Seems you just throwing theories and im yet waiting for some better explanation. Do you have ancient Sarmatian dna sample tested as I2a-Slav or this is just another theory (wish) of yours?

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a40 using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

It is not so trivial how you think.

And I-CTS10228 arrived to the Balkans, thanking Bastarnae and mixed Bastarnae/Thracians, much before Slavs formed, there are historical records about Bastarnae in the Balkans.

Term Slavic many people misinterpret, this primary refers to language, not ethnos.

And "invention" "I2a-Slav " is nonsense.

But enjoy, it will be new thread soon.

mobileacc200
16-07-17, 21:38
It is not so trivial how you think.

But enjoy, it will be new thread soon.
Ohh i cant wait, enlighten me please because from where im standing it looks like you cant and not even cant but you hardly refuse to accept facts, and not to mention you are trying so hard to make it look like its not Slavic that only makes you look like you have inferiority issues. Instead of accepting facts. Enlighten me please! Do you have Sarmatian or Tracian ancient dna sample or we are throwing theories like on some market or bazaar here?

Garrick
16-07-17, 21:43
Ohh i cant wait, enlighten me please because from where im standing it looks like you cant and not even cant but you hardly refuse to accept facts, and not to mention you are trying so hard to make it look like its not Slavic that only makes you look like you have inferiority issues. Instead of accepting facts. Enlighten me please! Do you have Sarmatian or Tracian ancient dna sample or we are throwing theories like on some market or bazaar here?

You'll wait. Be patient.

Garrick
16-07-17, 21:51
a 2004-2006 study by Rootsi and spanish scholars on ancient illyrians

name legend below:
Autariates = Bosnia
Delmatae = Pannonia
Noricum = East-Austria
Taulanti = Montenegro and Albania
Dardanians = Croatia
Histri = Istria
Veneti = North-East Italy
Japodes = Slovenia
Liburni = Italians and Croats

RESULTS AND DISCUSSION
The results of the frequencies of selected haplogroups analyzed in present populations living in
historically Illyrian area indicate clear differences in their distribution (Table 1).

Haplogroup I
(I1b-P37): The highest frequency is found for
haplogroup I1b-P37 (Rootsi et al., 2004), in the historical
continental areas of
Autariates (63.80%)
Delmatae (48%),
Noricum (20%)
Taulanti (17%),
Dardanians (13.50%)
Liburni (9.5%),
Veneti (0.5%).
This haplogroup is not present in the populations from the areas settled by
Japodes and Histri.

Haplogroup R
(R1b-M137): The highest frequency distribution of R1b-M173 (Kivisild et al., 2003) in the area of
Veneti (62%),
Autariates (27.27%)
Japodes (26.67%),
Noricum (21%),
Histri (18.18%),
Taulantii (17.60%),
Liburni (16.40%),
Dardanians (14.55%) and
Delmatae (7.06%).

Haplogroup R1a:
Its frequency peaks are in north-western areas of
Histri (45.45%),
Liburni (38.40%)
Noricum (37%),
Delmatae (22.58%),
Japodes (13.33%)
Autariates (12.10%),
Taulanti (9.80%)
Dardanians (8.82%).
This haplogroup is absent in the area of Veneti.

Haplogrupa E
(E3b1-M78): The frequencies in our sample are the following:
Dardanians (36.80%),
Taulantii (27%),
Japodes (13.33%),
Veneti (10.40%),
Histri (9.09%),
Autariates (8.50%)
Delmatae (4.66%).
In the area of Noricum this haplogroup is absent.

Haplogroup J (J2-M172):
The frequency peak is found in
Dardanians (15.02%)
Taulanti (14.30%),
Liburni (10.90%),
Veneti (9.60%)
Japodes (6.67%),
Delmatae (2.09%)
Autariates (1.40%).
It is absent in Noricum and the area of Histri

Sile
Who has no arguments trying with spam.

But it is a waste of time.

mobileacc200
16-07-17, 22:04
Sile
Who has no arguments trying with spam.

But it is a waste of time.
You and your buddy just spammed the crap with that nonsense when i made very good arguments and asked questions, you two spammed just to change subject.

That research is complete crap btw, what were they trying to prove?

Testing people in Slovenia and calling it Liburns like they tested ancient Liburns then trying to represent like they had R1a or I2a-Din. You really have to be low IQ to try to prove anything with it.

It would be like me testing Americans and claiming that Apache or Cherokee tribes were black because there are Afro American haplogroups living now in their territories..

If there is I2a-Din in Dalmatae territory now l its because ancient Dalmatae were exiled and withdraw from these territories and not that you are them.

Same with Slovenians and Liburns and so on..

I2a din is Slavic marker just as all Medieval documents describe Slavic invasion in Balkan in Early Middle Ages.
Wherever Slavs are described to intrude today we find I2a-Din and R1a there.

And where Slavs have not intruded, there suddenly i2a-din stops.

Fatherland
16-07-17, 22:09
This thread subject is outdated and should be removed.

Garrick
16-07-17, 23:00
You and your buddy just spammed the crap with that nonsense when i made very good arguments and asked questions, you two spammed just to change subject.

That research is complete crap btw, what were they trying to prove?

Testing people in Slovenia and calling it Liburns like they tested ancient Liburns then trying to represent like they had R1a or I2a-Din. You really have to be low IQ to try to prove anything with it.

It would be like me testing Americans and claiming that Apache or Cherokee tribes were black because there are Afro American haplogroups living now in their territories..

If there is I2a-Din in Dalmatae territory now l its because ancient Dalmatae were exiled and withdraw from these territories and not that you are them.

Same with Slovenians and Liburns and so on..

I2a din is Slavic marker just as all Medieval documents describe Slavic invasion in Balkan in Early Middle Ages.
Wherever Slavs are described to intrude today we find I2a-Din and R1a there.

And where Slavs have not intruded, there suddenly i2a-din stops.

No.

Thread speaks about people who brought I-CTS10228 to the Balkans.

And we know now, first Germans (Bastarnae) and Thracians (mixed with Bastarnae) brought this haplogroup to the Balkans, later different populations brought to the Balkans but also bearers of this haplogroup brought out of Balkans, many migrations were from the Balkans in the time of Muslim Ottoman occupation.

mobileacc200
17-07-17, 00:01
No.

Thread speaks about people who brought I-CTS10228 to the Balkans.

And we know now, first Germans (Bastarnae) and Thracians (mixed with Bastarnae) brought this haplogroup to the Balkans, later different populations brought to the Balkans but also bearers of this haplogroup brought out of Balkans, many migrations were from the Balkans in the time of Muslim Ottoman occupation.
U laži su kratke noge.

Again.. If there was I2a-Slav in Thracians it would be represented in Italians and eventually Romans too.. But this is just not a case, I2a-din stops where Slavs never intruded.

Second, you just fail to face countries from Russia to Slovakia with milions of I2a-din, you guys are all related within a 2400 years..

Also every Medieval document speaks about Slavic intrusion into Balkan just at places where we find I2a-din and R1a combined with milions of their closest relatives in Eastern and Northern Slavic countries.

Milan.M
17-07-17, 06:03
...............

Sile
17-07-17, 07:54
U laži su kratke noge.

Again.. If there was I2a-Slav in Thracians it would be represented in Italians and eventually Romans too.. But this is just not a case, I2a-din stops where Slavs never intruded.

Second, you just fail to face countries from Russia to Slovakia with milions of I2a-din, you guys are all related within a 2400 years..

Also every Medieval document speaks about Slavic intrusion into Balkan just at places where we find I2a-din and R1a combined with milions of their closest relatives in Eastern and Northern Slavic countries.

It is impossible that CTS10228 is slavic, .............it is older ( 900 years older ) than slavic migrations into south Poland , where CTS10228 originates

Sile
17-07-17, 07:56
Again dreams of Autariates, Taulanti, Liburni and other ancient tribes that carried no I2a-Din nor Slavic R1a and obvious ignoring of Russia, Moldova, Belarus, Poland, Ukraine, Slovakia and other closest I2a-Slav relatives.. And really not so distant ones since I2a-Din has low TMRCA.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a40 using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

R1a was in the balkans before the slavs arrived.............you are one of these that think all R1a is slavic type of thinking people.

Sile
17-07-17, 07:58
This thread subject is outdated and should be removed.

I gave you guys the date of CTS10228 from YFull and all of you have failed to answer , clearly YFull shows that that marker cannot be slavic

Yetos
17-07-17, 08:52
U laži su kratke noge.

Again.. If there was I2a-Slav in Thracians it would be represented in Italians and eventually Romans too.. But this is just not a case, I2a-din stops where Slavs never intruded.

Second, you just fail to face countries from Russia to Slovakia with milions of I2a-din, you guys are all related within a 2400 years..

Also every Medieval document speaks about Slavic intrusion into Balkan just at places where we find I2a-din and R1a combined with milions of their closest relatives in Eastern and Northern Slavic countries.

R1a in Balkans is at least 4000 years old,
in fact Balkans can be, due to many mutations a possible homeland of R1a,
but we consider it as a sink of IE.

Garrick
17-07-17, 09:08
U laži su kratke noge.

Again.. If there was I2a-Slav in Thracians it would be represented in Italians and eventually Romans too.. But this is just not a case, I2a-din stops where Slavs never intruded.

Second, you just fail to face countries from Russia to Slovakia with milions of I2a-din, you guys are all related within a 2400 years..

Also every Medieval document speaks about Slavic intrusion into Balkan just at places where we find I2a-din and R1a combined with milions of their closest relatives in Eastern and Northern Slavic countries.

No.

I-CTS10228 is Bastarnae and mixed Bastarnae with Thracians, in the Balkans Bastarnae were Thracinized (and they didn't speak their German language more).

Bastarnae arrived in the Balkans, not in Italy.

LABERIA
17-07-17, 09:40
Some discussions here, remember me more and more the famous pseudo-scientific theories of the Serb "scholars". Exist an "school" in Serbia who produce this kind of theories. The most famous "scholar", is this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jovan_I._Dereti%C4%87
Probably, soon we will read how Dorians and Spartans were serbs, Thracians were serbs but ancient greeks had difficulty with the ancient name of the serbs Ras and for this reason called this people Thrax, the Roman Emperor Maximus Trax was a serb, etc. This are very famous theories in today Serbia.

Yetos
17-07-17, 09:49
Some discussions here, remember me more and more the famous pseudo-scientific theories of the Serb "scholars". Exist an "school" in Serbia who produce this kind of theories. The most famous "scholar", is this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jovan_I._Dereti%C4%87
Probably, soon we will read how Dorians and Spartans were serbs, Thracians were serbs but ancient greeks had difficulty with the ancient name of the serbs Ras and for this reason called this people Thrax, the Roman Emperor Maximus Trax was a serb, etc. This are very famous theories in today Serbia.

we already heard that king Pyrros was Albanian and Epiros is not Greek

and mother of Greek language is Albanian.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34038-similarites-between-greek-and-albanian?highlight=similarities+greek+albanian

LABERIA
17-07-17, 09:50
we already heard that king Pyrros was Albanian and Epiros is not Greek

No, the most funny thing is that you pretend to be original makedonian.
If you want to discuss about Epir, open a separate thread and show what do you know about this topic.

Yetos
17-07-17, 09:53
No, the most funny thing is that you pretend to be original makedonian.

No the most funny is that you claim to be Epirotes descendant of Pyrros

LABERIA
17-07-17, 09:55
No the most funny is that you claim to be Epirotes descendant of Pyrros
I understand why you immediately defended the serbs, is the slavic blood in your veins.
Do you have any comments about my new signature?

Yetos
17-07-17, 09:58
I understand why you immediately defended the serbs, is the slavic blood in your veins.
Do you have any comments about my new signature?

No
that is reason I write original,

simply I am tired of Fyrom and Albanian pseudoscience.


read N kasomoulis
you will find greater family relatives of mine there,
search the ones who liberate the Arbanites (Ανδριτσος) from Laberian Ali Pasha hands

LABERIA
17-07-17, 10:07
No
that is reason I write original,

simply I am tired of Fyrom and Albanian pseudoscience.


read N kasomoulis
you will find greater family relatives of mine there,
search the ones who liberate the Arbanites (Ανδριτσος) from Laberian Ali Pasha hands

Probably you are tired because you are an old man. It's time for you to spend much more time with your family. You had all the time in this years but it's hard to find single post of yours that can be considered useful.
BTW, what about my signature?

LABERIA
17-07-17, 10:13
Sorry Yetos, the source of my signature:
[O Γέρων Κολοκοτρώνης, τ.Β’, Εν Αθήναις, Βιβλιοθήκη της Εστίας, 1889]

Yetos
17-07-17, 10:29
Sorry Yetos, the source of my signature:
[O Γέρων Κολοκοτρώνης, τ.Β’, Εν Αθήναις, Βιβλιοθήκη της Εστίας, 1889]


Ι answer about your signature

Search N Kasomoulis memories to find my wider family name who liberate Arbanitan Androutsos father and family from Ali Pasha tortures, and send them to Zakynthos with the Olympos ntaifa.


also this

Το γράμμα σας το ελάβαμε και σας γράφομεν και ημεῖς ότι ποτέ δεν είχαμεν σκοπὸ για να ανταμωθῶμεν με τους Τούρκους, διότι και αυτοὺς τους θεωρούμεν κακοὺς εχθρούς μας, και νάρθουμε να σας χτυπήσουμε. Τα θέλατε εσείς, γιατί από τον καιρό που γίνηκε το σεφέρι [σήμ: η επανάσταση] το Μάρτι το έτος 1769 και εμβήκατε στο Μωριὰ για να βοηθήσετε τους Τούρκους και να χτυπήσετε εμάς τους Μοραΐτες, δέκα χρόνια γένουνται από καιρὸ εκείνον έως σήμερα, πού μας ετυρρανίσατε, μας εγδύσατε εσκοτώσατε τους πατέρες μας, τις μητέρες μας, τα αδέρφια μας, τις γυναίκες μας, τα παιδιά μας, τους συγγενείς και τους πατριώτες μας. Και μας κάματε τέτοια πολλὰ κακὰ που εμείς δεν μπορούμε πλιὰ να σας χωνεύουμε και ούτε να σας συγχωρήσομε, για δαυτὸ μαζωχθήκαμε ούλοι δω πέρα να σας χτυπήσομε και με τη δύναμη του θεού -αν μπορέσωμε- να σας διώξωμε πλιὰ απ' το Μωριά. Αν εσείς θέλετε για να πολεμήσουμε και να σκοτωθούμε, εμείς σας συγχωρούμε για όλα τα χάλια πού μας εκάματε, και ελάτε μερικοί απὸ όλους σας να μας φέρτε τα άρματα σας, και να μας δώσετε όσα χρήματα έχετε στα κιμέρια σας πού τα μαζώξατε απὸ τους πατριώτες μας, και ύστερα να σας στείλουμε με μεγάλο σιγουρητὸ στην πατρίδα σας. Ελάτε και σας καρτεροῦμε, γιατί πάν' κεῖνα που ξέρατε. Ἐλᾶτε το ταχύ, ἀλλοιῶς θα το μετανοήσετε.

Από Τρίκορφα 10 Ιουλίου έτος 1779

Με την συμφωνία απὸ όλους τους κλέφτες και τους αρματολοὺς του Μωριά, υπογράφουμε εμείς οι πρώτοι αρχηγοί,



Κωνσταντίνος Κολοκοτρώνης και " Αλέξης Δάρας "




the reply of Konstantinos Kolokotronis to the 10 000 Tosk Turk-Albanians who ruined Peloponese, after the Orlov's revolt
remember the 2 Bey names from Toskeria?
Ali hadji Osman bey
Suleiman bey

Theodoros Kolokotronis in his memories mention the tower made by heads

Garrick
17-07-17, 10:30
Some discussions here, remember me more and more the famous pseudo-scientific theories of the Serb "scholars". Exist an "school" in Serbia who produce this kind of theories. The most famous "scholar", is this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jovan_I._Dereti%C4%87
Probably, soon we will read how Dorians and Spartans were serbs, Thracians were serbs but ancient greeks had difficulty with the ancient name of the serbs Ras and for this reason called this people Thrax, the Roman Emperor Maximus Trax was a serb, etc. This are very famous theories in today Serbia.

Nobody discussed about Dorians and Spartians.

If you like there are another threads.

What some Serbs write you can discuss with them.

Here we discuss about origin of I-CTS10228, Bastarnae and their path to the Balkans.

Thracians mixed with Bastarnae, what is logical because Bastarnae migrated to the Getae-Dacian terittory and Bastarne were in today's areas Romania and Balkans.

LABERIA
17-07-17, 10:55
Ι answer about your signature

Search N Kasomoulis memories to find my wider family name who liberate Arbanitan Androutsos father and family from Ali Pasha tortures, and send them to Zakynthos with the Olympos ntaifa.


also this

Το γράμμα σας το ελάβαμε και σας γράφομεν και ημεῖς ότι ποτέ δεν είχαμεν σκοπὸ για να ανταμωθῶμεν με τους Τούρκους, διότι και αυτοὺς τους θεωρούμεν κακοὺς εχθρούς μας, και νάρθουμε να σας χτυπήσουμε. Τα θέλατε εσείς, γιατί από τον καιρό που γίνηκε το σεφέρι [σήμ: η επανάσταση] το Μάρτι το έτος 1769 και εμβήκατε στο Μωριὰ για να βοηθήσετε τους Τούρκους και να χτυπήσετε εμάς τους Μοραΐτες, δέκα χρόνια γένουνται από καιρὸ εκείνον έως σήμερα, πού μας ετυρρανίσατε, μας εγδύσατε εσκοτώσατε τους πατέρες μας, τις μητέρες μας, τα αδέρφια μας, τις γυναίκες μας, τα παιδιά μας, τους συγγενείς και τους πατριώτες μας. Και μας κάματε τέτοια πολλὰ κακὰ που εμείς δεν μπορούμε πλιὰ να σας χωνεύουμε και ούτε να σας συγχωρήσομε, για δαυτὸ μαζωχθήκαμε ούλοι δω πέρα να σας χτυπήσομε και με τη δύναμη του θεού -αν μπορέσωμε- να σας διώξωμε πλιὰ απ' το Μωριά. Αν εσείς θέλετε για να πολεμήσουμε και να σκοτωθούμε, εμείς σας συγχωρούμε για όλα τα χάλια πού μας εκάματε, και ελάτε μερικοί απὸ όλους σας να μας φέρτε τα άρματα σας, και να μας δώσετε όσα χρήματα έχετε στα κιμέρια σας πού τα μαζώξατε απὸ τους πατριώτες μας, και ύστερα να σας στείλουμε με μεγάλο σιγουρητὸ στην πατρίδα σας. Ελάτε και σας καρτεροῦμε, γιατί πάν' κεῖνα που ξέρατε. Ἐλᾶτε το ταχύ, ἀλλοιῶς θα το μετανοήσετε.

Από Τρίκορφα 10 Ιουλίου έτος 1779

Με την συμφωνία απὸ όλους τους κλέφτες και τους αρματολοὺς του Μωριά, υπογράφουμε εμείς οι πρώτοι αρχηγοί,



Κωνσταντίνος Κολοκοτρώνης και " Αλέξης Δάρας "




the reply of Konstantinos Kolokotronis to the 10 000 Tosk Turk-Albanians who ruined Peloponese, after the Orlov's revolt
remember the 2 Bey names from Toskeria?
Ali hadji Osman bey
Suleiman bey

Theodoros Kolokotronis in his memories mention the tower made by heads
Yetos, i have no interest about this kocomiu, the folktales of your family or how you use to brainwash people in your country.
Your family was part of this project:
https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%91%CE%BB%CE%AE_%CE%A6%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%BC%CE%AC% CE%BA%CE%B7%CF%82
How do you explain in the folktales of your family and what's the opinion of this kocomiu about this events?
Even Napoleon Bonaparte was interested personally.

LABERIA
17-07-17, 11:40
Yetos, i have no interest about this kocomiu, the folktales of your family or how you use to brainwash people in your country.
Your family was part of this project:
https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%91%CE%BB%CE%AE_%CE%A6%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%BC%CE%AC% CE%BA%CE%B7%CF%82
How do you explain in the folktales of your family and what's the opinion of this kocomiu about this events?
Even Napoleon Bonaparte was interested personally.

Edit.
https://teleologikos.wordpress.com/2006/03/24/%CE%BC%CF%8D%CE%B8%CE%BF%CE%B9-%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%B9-%CF%80%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%B3%CE%BC%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%B9%C E%BA%CF%8C%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%84%CE%B5%CF%82-%CE%B3%CE%B9%CE%B1-%CF%84%CE%B1-400-%CE%AD%CF%84%CE%B7/

Yetos
17-07-17, 11:56
Yetos, i have no interest about this kocomiu, the folktales of your family or how you use to brainwash people in your country.
Your family was part of this project:
https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%91%CE%BB%CE%AE_%CE%A6%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%BC%CE%AC% CE%BA%CE%B7%CF%82
How do you explain in the folktales of your family and what's the opinion of this kocomiu about this events?
Even Napoleon Bonaparte was interested personally.


Again you destroy History,

typical for you,

you Forgot the Orlov's revolt
you forgot everything
and just pass me a lie as truth

the truth for that is this
the plan that you mention is from French comissioner at Eptanisa Ντονζελώ Francois xavier Donzelot
who promised a state of Greeks and Albanians to Farmakis and Kolokotronis
in fact he managed to gather armatoloi to fight for Francais in Croatia
against other armatoloi who fought for Russia.


but the reply of Kolokotronis was this and based on expereince by Orlov's and Russia

what I have to do with Bonaparts.
once we are baptised with water
once we are baptised with blood
once we are baptised with liberation of country
if they want to liberate my country
we will find 5 and 10 000
but to fight for them? we can't

(yet some armatoloi went to Napoli Croatia Egypt)

and declined

Besides
that plan of Francais empire (Napoleon) is nothing comparing Ρηγας Φερραιος and Φιλλικη Εταιρεια.

So again you tell us nothing,

as for my fairytales or folktales
read Kasomoulis


KASOMOYLIS IS THE STRONGEST HISTORIAN OF 1821 REVOLT

I guess you did not even know who is my flag and who is my avatar


and I suggest to read this

https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9C%CE%B1%CE%BA%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%B5%CE%B9%CF%8C_% CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82_%CE%91%CF%81%CE%B2%CE%B1%CE%BD%C E%B9%CF%84%CE%B9%CE%AC%CF%82


I suggest read post # 957

Ps
there is a word that Greeks Albanians Arbanites Turks used, Νισαφι Nisaf,
a good nisaf can make you even an vlamis.
so the mention of Farmakis with the later massacre and battle of Lalla is not as Eythymiou provides it,
but as is written above.
yes Farmakis cooperate with Kolokotronis who made a nisafi and is considered a hero of Greek revolt
and street have its name and is teached in history.
cause Farmakis enemy was the Ottoman pasha.
and he received help from Greeks not from Turk friendly Albanians

The rest are only in your mind

LABERIA
17-07-17, 12:12
Again you destroy History,

typical for you,

you Forgot the Orlov's revolt
you forgot everything
and just pass me a lie as truth

the truth for that is this
the plan that you mention is from French comissioner at Eptanisa Ντονζελώ Francois xavier Donzelot
who promised a state of Greeks and Albanians to Farmakis and Kolokotronis
in fact he managed to gather armatoloi to fight for Francais in Croatia
against other armatoloi who fought for Russia.


but the reply of Kolokotronis was this and based on expereince by Orlov's and Russia

what I have to do with Bonaparts.
once we are baptised with water
once we are baptised with blood
once we are baptised with liberation of country
if they want to liberate my country
we will find 5 and 10 000
but to fight for them? we can't

(yet some armatoloi went to Napoli Croatia Egypt)

and declined

Besides
that plan of Francais empire (Napoleon) is nothing comparing Ρηγας Φερραιος and Φιλλικη Εταιρεια.

So again you tell us nothing,

as for my fairytales or folktales
read Kasomoulis


KASOMOYLIS IS THE STRONGEST HISTORIAN OF 1821 REVOLT

I guess you did not even know who is my flag and who is my avatar


and I suggest to read this

https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9C%CE%B1%CE%BA%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%B5%CE%B9%CF%8C_% CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82_%CE%91%CF%81%CE%B2%CE%B1%CE%BD%C E%B9%CF%84%CE%B9%CE%AC%CF%82


I suggest read post # 957

Yetos, you have this incredible capacity to turn the thread in a total mess full with BS. I told you, open a new thread and explain this your folktales. Now please stop quoting me because this discussion is of topic.

Yetos
17-07-17, 12:20
the one who boom the thread is you with this


Some discussions here, remember me more and more the famous pseudo-scientific theories of the Serb "scholars". Exist an "school" in Serbia who produce this kind of theories. The most famous "scholar", is this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jovan_I._Dereti%C4%87
Probably, soon we will read how Dorians and Spartans were serbs, Thracians were serbs but ancient greeks had difficulty with the ancient name of the serbs Ras and for this reason called this people Thrax, the Roman Emperor Maximus Trax was a serb, etc. This are very famous theories in today Serbia.


I only answer that the same thing you do in most of the threads of Forum
same way you act years now claiming that Epiros was never Greek

and you ask me about your signature,
and I answer your imagination who lives in the lie


you have the ability to pass a lie as a truth,
but when truth comes on surface
you only accuse others that boom the place

DuPidh
17-07-17, 12:26
The oldest written people known as Illyrians came from east-austria , pannonia, ............everyone knows they had G2a and I2a markers

these bronze-age illyrians moved slowly in a north-east direction form modern Vienna to be involved in the bronze age amber trail trade . this I2a also went into Italy, croatia, Bosnia etc...................and yes , the celts absorbed the illyrians in austria from ~700BC and continued to absorb them into celtic society as far south as northern Serbia ( you should know from there the celts failed in their invasion of Greece ).................the slavs would have absorbed "illyrian" markers because they absorbed illyrian-celts

Not all of one haplogroup belongs to one people .................so what I2a do you refer to as certain subclades belong to different areas ................I also hope you are not one of these people that think R1a is only a slavic marker

Take the case of Finish. They have considerable amounts of I1. But they have even more Mongolic. Their ancesry tests show their links with both populations. Their tests show certain percentage east Asian ancestry. Had I2a been Gothic or Celtic today Croats or Bosnians, who have more than half of their male lineages I2a, should have shown a large percentage of their genes as western European origin. Instead in average the genes of this countries show eastern European the largest amount and the rest Southern European, and East Asian. Negligibly amounts of Western European where French and Germans are included. So in Case of Bosnia where 70% of males are I2a the western ancestry should have been at amounts of at least 50% western European. Instead as you know is Estern, which means I2a people of Bosnia were carrying Eastern genes. So the discussion that I2a is not Slavic is waste of time

LABERIA
17-07-17, 12:34
the one who boom the thread is you with this




I only answer that the same thing you do in most of the threads of Forum
same way you act years now claiming that Epiros was never Greek

and you ask me about your signature,
and I answer your imagination who lives in the lie


you have the ability to pass a lie as a truth,
but when truth comes on surface
you only accuse others that boom the place

Thank you for proving that you derailed this thread.
Again i want repeat, if you have something to discuss not related to this thread, open a new thread.
There you can explain all the folktales about your family and other. If you think that one of my posts is not correct you can explain why, but not here. Going around in forum like a zombie and accusing the others without proves it is not correct, it's not normal.
If you don't want to open a new thread you can use this thread:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30592-Balkanian-disagreements/page27?p=471131&highlight=Kandari#post471131

Yetos
17-07-17, 12:39
Thank you for proving that you derailed this thread.
Again i want repeat, if you have something to discuss not related to this thread, open a new thread.
There you can explain all the folktales about your family and other. If you think that one of my posts is not correct you can explain why, but not here. Going around in forum like a zombie and accusing the others without proves it is not correct, it's not normal.


and again I repeat
you bomb the thread with your post # 949 as many other
as a zombie and you keep say to us that Epirus was never Greek but Albanian
and King Pyrros was Albanian

and you keep provide lies as truth.

YOU WANT TO HAVE LAST WORD,
OK next post is yours,
if that satisfies you,

And no I have other works to do than dicuss with a false history as you provide it.


written by the father of Kolokotronis

Το γράμμα σας το ελάβαμε και σας γράφομεν και ημεῖς ότι ποτέ δεν είχαμεν σκοπὸ για να ανταμωθῶμεν με τους Τούρκους, διότι και αυτοὺς τους θεωρούμεν κακοὺς εχθρούς μας, και νάρθουμε να σας χτυπήσουμε. Τα θέλατε εσείς, γιατί από τον καιρό που γίνηκε το σεφέρι [σήμ: η επανάσταση] το Μάρτι το έτος 1769 και εμβήκατε στο Μωριὰ για να βοηθήσετε τους Τούρκους και να χτυπήσετε εμάς τους Μοραΐτες, δέκα χρόνια γένουνται από καιρὸ εκείνον έως σήμερα, πού μας ετυρρανίσατε, μας εγδύσατε εσκοτώσατε τους πατέρες μας, τις μητέρες μας, τα αδέρφια μας, τις γυναίκες μας, τα παιδιά μας, τους συγγενείς και τους πατριώτες μας. Και μας κάματε τέτοια πολλὰ κακὰ που εμείς δεν μπορούμε πλιὰ να σας χωνεύουμε και ούτε να σας συγχωρήσομε, για δαυτὸ μαζωχθήκαμε ούλοι δω πέρα να σας χτυπήσομε και με τη δύναμη του θεού -αν μπορέσωμε- να σας διώξωμε πλιὰ απ' το Μωριά. Αν εσείς θέλετε για να πολεμήσουμε και να σκοτωθούμε, εμείς σας συγχωρούμε για όλα τα χάλια πού μας εκάματε, και ελάτε μερικοί απὸ όλους σας να μας φέρτε τα άρματα σας, και να μας δώσετε όσα χρήματα έχετε στα κιμέρια σας πού τα μαζώξατε απὸ τους πατριώτες μας, και ύστερα να σας στείλουμε με μεγάλο σιγουρητὸ στην πατρίδα σας. Ελάτε και σας καρτεροῦμε, γιατί πάν' κεῖνα που ξέρατε. Ἐλᾶτε το ταχύ, ἀλλοιῶς θα το μετανοήσετε.

Από Τρίκορφα 10 Ιουλίου έτος 1779

Με την συμφωνία απὸ όλους τους κλέφτες και τους αρματολοὺς του Μωριά, υπογράφουμε εμείς οι πρώτοι αρχηγοί,


Κωνσταντίνος Κολοκοτρώνης και " Αλέξης Δάρας "

LABERIA
17-07-17, 12:43
and again I repeat
you bomb the thread with your post # 949 as many other
as a zombie and you keep say to us that Epirus was never Greek but Albanian
and King Pyrros was Albanian

and you keep provide lies as truth.

YOU WANT TO HAVE LAST WORD,
OK next post is yours,
if that satisfies you,

And no I have other works to do than dicuss with a false history as you provide it.
If you think that my post was bomb, here there are mods and they can decide about this. You are not a moderator. You have no right to attack me or to discuss in this thread about Epir. You have the right to report to the mods this post # 949 and later it's their duty to decide. But you can not bring here in this thread the discussion about Epir. There are other threads where you can discuss about all this.

Yetos
17-07-17, 13:05
well I have same rights as you do

we are equal

and with the same way you post this


Some discussions here, remember me more and more the famous pseudo-scientific theories of the Serb "scholars". Exist an "school" in Serbia who produce this kind of theories. The most famous "scholar", is this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jovan_I._Dereti%C4%87
Probably, soon we will read how Dorians and Spartans were serbs, Thracians were serbs but ancient greeks had difficulty with the ancient name of the serbs Ras and for this reason called this people Thrax, the Roman Emperor Maximus Trax was a serb, etc. This are very famous theories in today Serbia.

I say that you personally, I have no difference in rights
cause if Serbian 'strange theories' claim Spartans as Serbs, which is stupid
SAME WAY YOU CLAIM KING PYRROS AND EPIRUS AS ALBANIAN which is the same degree stupidity.
same strange theories as you say, Serbs have, you also carry

No I am not going to discuss your strange theories.

LABERIA
17-07-17, 13:24
well I have same rights as you do

we are equal

and with the same way you post this



I say that you personally, I have no difference in rights
cause if Serbian 'strange theories' claim Spartans as Serbs, which is stupid
SAME WAY YOU CLAIM KING PYRROS AND EPIRUS AS ALBANIAN which is the same degree stupidity.
same strange theories as you say, Serbs have, you also carry

No I am not going to discuss your strange theories.
But this thread is not dedicated to your revenge against me about Epir. Do you understand that this thread is not about Epir? There are other threads where you can explain your point of view, always supported by credible sources. Because your posts are only unfounded personal opinions without a source or a link. Now please stop quoting me if this is possible.

Garrick
17-07-17, 16:49
So in Case of Bosnia where 70% of males are I2a the western ancestry should have been at amounts of at least 50% western European. Instead as you know is Estern, which means I2a people of Bosnia were carrying Eastern genes. So the discussion that I2a is not Slavic is waste of time

Everyone can see this chart.

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/East-European-admixture.gif
I2a-Din has peak in Herzegovina and East-European admixture there is very low.

In most parts of Serbia, Croatia and northern Bosnia East European admixture is similar as Eastern Germany, Eastern Austria, Hungary and Romania and much smaller than in Eastern Poland, Balarus or Western Russia. Maciamo wrote: "Note the resemblance with the distribution of Y-DNA haplogroup R1a (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#distribution).."

Azzurro
17-07-17, 16:59
There is another possibility that I think could be the I2a-CTS10228's ancestor, and its the Scordisci Celts, they almost match the TMRCA of I2a-CTS10228 and settled throughout the entire Balkans, minus Greece and Albania (which could be a problem because of I-A2512, however a branch could of ended up in Greece).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci

This makes more sense than a Germanic origin, as the characteristic Germanic I haplogroup is I1, so indeed a Celtic line. In my opinion the ancestor of I2-CTS10228 is either a Scordisci Celt or a Scytho-Gatae.

DuPidh
17-07-17, 17:51
Everyone can see this chart.

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/East-European-admixture.gif
I2a-Din has peak in Herzegovina and East-European admixture there is very low.

In most parts of Serbia, Croatia and northern Bosnia East European admixture is similar as Eastern Germany, Eastern Austria, Hungary and Romania and much smaller than in Eastern Poland, Balarus or Western Russia. Maciamo wrote: "Note the resemblance with the distribution of Y-DNA haplogroup R1a (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#distribution).."

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_Northwest_European.png

So if I2a was Celt or German origin Bosnians with the highest I2a in the world should have been averaged at least in North western European admixture. As this map shows they have none. No connections whatsoever. Conclusion; I2a was brought en mass in the Balkans by Slavs. Clearly a slavic marker.

Leka
17-07-17, 18:25
There is another possibility that I think could be the I2a-CTS10228's ancestor, and its the Scordisci Celts, they almost match the TMRCA of I2a-CTS10228 and settled throughout the entire Balkans, minus Greece and Albania (which could be a problem because of I-A2512, however a branch could of ended up in Greece).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci

This makes more sense than a Germanic origin, as the characteristic Germanic I haplogroup is I1, so indeed a Celtic line. In my opinion the ancestor of I2-CTS10228 is either a Scordisci Celt or a Scytho-Gatae.

When CTS10228 just merely started expanding Scordisci were well established as a tribe. Also you would have to explain to us how a minor hybrid Celtic and Illyrian tribe got to Belarusia, Russia, Ukrain and Poland and also at the same time successfully spread all over Balkans.

doku
17-07-17, 18:31
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_Northwest_European.png

So if I2a was Celt or German origin Bosnians with the highest I2a in the world should have been averaged at least in North western European admixture. As this map shows they have none. No connections whatsoever. Conclusion; I2a was brought en mass in the Balkans by Slavs. Clearly a slavic marker.
On the dodecad project, the Bosnian have average 20-30% NW Europe, E Europe 20-30%, the Mediterranean 20-30% West Asia 10-20%.

Garrick
17-07-17, 18:40
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_Northwest_European.png

So if I2a was Celt or German origin Bosnians with the highest I2a in the world should have been averaged at least in North western European admixture. As this map shows they have none. No connections whatsoever. Conclusion; I2a was brought en mass in the Balkans by Slavs. Clearly a slavic marker.

No. Your conclusion is completely wrong. You can read admixtures of nations, you are confuse.

And it will not help you to show that I-CTS10228 emerged among Slavs who didn't exist in upper Vistula area 300 BC.

Back to topic.

Azzurro
17-07-17, 18:54
When CTS10228 just merely started expanding Scordisci were well established as a tribe. Also you would have to explain to us how a minor hybrid Celtic and Illyrian tribe got to Belarusia, Russia, Ukrain and Poland and also at the same time successfully spread all over Balkans.

I think the ancestor or CTS10228 itself was a Scordisci or Scytho-Gatae line, it's downstreams became Slavic afterwards, such as I-PH908 and I-S17250 are Slavic and were part of the expansion, it would make I-CTS10228 a proto Slavic marker and its downstreams would thus majorly become Slavic.

Garrick
17-07-17, 19:14
I think the ancestor or CTS10228 itself was a Scordisci or Scytho-Gatae line, it's downstreams became Slavic afterwards, such as I-PH908 and I-S17250 are Slavic and were part of the expansion, it would make I-CTS10228 a proto Slavic marker and its downstreams would thus majorly become Slavic.

Azzuro
Several people here in Eupedia and other forums thought about Scordisci but they were not in upper/middle Vistula area.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci

Also they were smaller tribe than Bastarnae, some scientists due to size for Bastarnae say they were not tribe but people(nation).

DuPidh
17-07-17, 19:51
On the dodecad project, the Bosnian have average 20-30% NW Europe, E Europe 20-30%, the Mediterranean 20-30% West Asia 10-20%.

On Ancestry Bosnian's score above 65% Eastern European. The rest is Southern European and other minor lineages. Clearly the map has Garric introduced has major mistakes but I did accept it since was from the same source I got mine.

DuPidh
17-07-17, 20:01
No. Your conclusion is completely wrong. You can read admixtures of nations, you are confuse.

And it will not help you to show that I-CTS10228 emerged among Slavs who didn't exist in upper Vistula area 300 BC.

Back to topic.
Common sense! I2a people traveled with their women. It was not males only. It means if there are 50% I2a men in Bosnia who came let say From a German tribe, with them traveled almost as many females of the same ethnicity .So the population should have a significant amount of genes of that tribe. Bosnian's in our case don't. So that means they come from where most of their genes are. And most are from East, as I said your map is profoundly wrong. the real figure is 65%

Sile
17-07-17, 20:06
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_Northwest_European.png

So if I2a was Celt or German origin Bosnians with the highest I2a in the world should have been averaged at least in North western European admixture. As this map shows they have none. No connections whatsoever. Conclusion; I2a was brought en mass in the Balkans by Slavs. Clearly a slavic marker.

wrong again, the marker arrived in the balkans long before the slavs arrived 1000 years later................

Sile
17-07-17, 20:10
I think the ancestor or CTS10228 itself was a Scordisci or Scytho-Gatae line, it's downstreams became Slavic afterwards, such as I-PH908 and I-S17250 are Slavic and were part of the expansion, it would make I-CTS10228 a proto Slavic marker and its downstreams would thus majorly become Slavic.

Do you really believe it is a celtic marker?

https://www.academia.edu/31354293/THE_BARBARIAN_DANUBE_-_On_Celtic_Settlements_and_Fortifications_on_the_L ower_Danube

Sile
17-07-17, 20:18
Nobody discussed about Dorians and Spartians.

If you like there are another threads.

What some Serbs write you can discuss with them.

Here we discuss about origin of I-CTS10228, Bastarnae and their path to the Balkans.

Thracians mixed with Bastarnae, what is logical because Bastarnae migrated to the Getae-Dacian terittory and Bastarne were in today's areas Romania and Balkans.

scholars know that the bastarnae spoke a form of germanic, but they are not sure....................other scholars state the bastarnae are gallic-celts mixing with sarmatians

https://www.academia.edu/4835555/Gallo-Scythians

but , for this thread , the marker is still not a slavic marker


The Peucini were the southern branch of the Bastarnae tribal confederation, initially settled in the Lower Danube region, specifically around the island of Peuce, from which they took their name – ‘while those who took possession of Peuce, the island in the Ister, are called Peucini’ (Strabo Vii, 3,17).

From the end of the 3rd/beginning of the 2nd c. BC (coinciding chronologically with the collapse of the Celtic Tyle state in eastern Thrace) the Peucini began to expand southwards into sub-Danubian Thrace, where they are referred to variously as ‘Galatians’, ‘Bastarnae’ or ‘Gauls’. In 179 BC they first appear in historical sources as allies of the Scordisci and the Macedonian king Philip V, who intended to send them against Rome. The geo-political significance of the Peucini at this stage is noted by ancient authors. Livy informs us that:

‘The envoys whom he had sent to the Bastarnae to summon assistance had returned and brought back with them some young nobles, amongst them some of royal blood. One of these promised to give his sister in marriage to Philip’s son, and the king was quite elated at the prospect of an alliance with that nation’ (Livy. History of Rome. Book 40:5).

Garrick
17-07-17, 20:21
Common sense! I2a people traveled with their women. It was not males only. It means if there are 50% I2a men in Bosnia who came let say From a German tribe, with them traveled almost as many females of the same ethnicity .So the population should have a significant amount of genes of that tribe. Bosnian's in our case don't. So that means they come from where most of their genes are. And most are from East, as I said your map is profoundly wrong. the real figure is 65%

You should carefully what is written. If you want trivialize it does not help.

Leka
17-07-17, 20:39
No. Your conclusion is completely wrong. You can read admixtures of nations, you are confuse.

And it will not help you to show that I-CTS10228 emerged among Slavs who didn't exist in upper Vistula area 300 BC.

Back to topic.

But CTS10228 was in Vistula area, confirmed by aDNA? Obviosly CTS10228 moved west and south with Slavs.

Garrick
17-07-17, 20:46
scholars know that the bastarnae spoke a form of germanic, but they are not sure....................other scholars state the bastarnae are gallic-celts mixing with sarmatians

https://www.academia.edu/4835555/Gallo-Scythians

but , for this thread , the marker is still not a slavic marker


The Peucini were the southern branch of the Bastarnae tribal confederation, initially settled in the Lower Danube region, specifically around the island of Peuce, from which they took their name – ‘while those who took possession of Peuce, the island in the Ister, are called Peucini’ (Strabo Vii, 3,17).

From the end of the 3rd/beginning of the 2nd c. BC (coinciding chronologically with the collapse of the Celtic Tyle state in eastern Thrace) the Peucini began to expand southwards into sub-Danubian Thrace, where they are referred to variously as ‘Galatians’, ‘Bastarnae’ or ‘Gauls’. In 179 BC they first appear in historical sources as allies of the Scordisci and the Macedonian king Philip V, who intended to send them against Rome. The geo-political significance of the Peucini at this stage is noted by ancient authors. Livy informs us that:

‘The envoys whom he had sent to the Bastarnae to summon assistance had returned and brought back with them some young nobles, amongst them some of royal blood. One of these promised to give his sister in marriage to Philip’s son, and the king was quite elated at the prospect of an alliance with that nation’ (Livy. History of Rome. Book 40:5).

Reputation.

Yes, scholars didn't sure if this is German tribe, or Celtic tribe or mixed German/Celtic tribe, although with new knowledge German view is closer.

Pan-Slavist scientists don't like speak about Bastarnae origin, because they loved that Zarubintsy culture was proto-Slavic, and they say Bastarnae were Bastarnae people, avoid mention their German/Celtic roots, but no Zarubintsy culture was not proto-Slavic it was mostly Bastarnaian, including influence Celts, Sarmatians etc., and Zarubintsy culture had high amount of I-CTS10228 carriers.

Yes, we talk about all time, Bastarnae were in today's Romania and Balkans, and they mixed with Thracians/Dacians.

Even an author writes that after 2nd century AD big parts of Balkans were Bastarnae origin.

Sile
17-07-17, 20:53
But CTS10228 was in Vistula area, confirmed by aDNA? Obviosly CTS10228 moved west and south with Slavs.

and the slavs where not there at the time of CTS10228 ...................you are more than 1000 years difference

Garrick
17-07-17, 20:58
But CTS10228 was in Vistula area, confirmed by aDNA? Obviosly CTS10228 moved west and south with Slavs.

Secretly, nobody could know, proto-Slav strategists installed in the third century BC in the upper/middle course of the Vistula special agents.

The Bastarnae and surrounding tribes thought they were members of their people, but they were not, they were trained Slavic agents.

They secretly were carrying the I-CTS10228 all the way to sixth century AD, it was one of the most successful strategic endeavors in history.

Leka
17-07-17, 21:23
and the slavs where not there at the time of CTS10228 ...................you are more than 1000 years difference

That's another hunch of yours right? I don't see how your response answers my question, though. When aDNA confirms that perhaps CTS10228 was in Poland around 300 BC we can come back to your "1000 years of difference" comment (assuming that's what it implies).

Azzurro
17-07-17, 22:08
Do you really believe it is a celtic marker?

https://www.academia.edu/31354293/THE_BARBARIAN_DANUBE_-_On_Celtic_Settlements_and_Fortifications_on_the_L ower_Danube

I believe it could be, the Scordisci Tribe moved in during this time and there's a I-CTS10228* in France, though my first choice would have be that it is a Scythian marker well in terms of I-CTS10228 itself, two branches of I-CTS10228 which would be A2512 and SK1241 show a pre-Slavic disposition of this subclade which matches Scythian routes and territory it is the most sensible explanation, and it makes sense for a Slavic origin as well as S17250 and PH908 would have been amongst the progenitors of Slavs, Slavs do have Scythian-Samarritan roots as well.

Sile
17-07-17, 23:27
That's another hunch of yours right? I don't see how your response answers my question, though. When aDNA confirms that perhaps CTS10228 was in Poland around 300 BC we can come back to your "1000 years of difference" comment (assuming that's what it implies).

You do realise that there where no slavs in poland around 300BC, ...........lets hope you understand now

Sile
17-07-17, 23:32
I believe it could be, the Scordisci Tribe moved in during this time and there's a I-CTS10228* in France, though my first choice would have be that it is a Scythian marker well in terms of I-CTS10228 itself, two branches of I-CTS10228 which would be A2512 and SK1241 show a pre-Slavic disposition of this subclade which matches Scythian routes and territory it is the most sensible explanation, and it makes sense for a Slavic origin as well as S17250 and PH908 would have been amongst the progenitors of Slavs, Slavs do have Scythian-Samarritan roots as well.

to find where a subclade that is positive comes from, you need to find the same subclade which is negative, ............negative are far older in time than postive ones.............the negative from yfull is roughhly in the same area...see map

https://s17.postimg.org/yvbxxas0f/10228.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/8a9f1qpmz/)

btw, many nations in europe have scythian and sarmatians genes .................what's your point?

Azzurro
18-07-17, 00:08
to find where a subclade that is positive comes from, you need to find the same subclade which is negative, ............negative are far older in time than postive ones.............the negative from yfull is roughhly in the same area...see map

https://s17.postimg.org/yvbxxas0f/10228.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/8a9f1qpmz/)

btw, many nations in europe have scythian and sarmatians genes .................what's your point?

I personally do not believe that, there is also one in France. People migrate, all this tells me is that I-CTS10228 came from the East, to me theres two strong indicators of origin of a subclade who is the highest frequency today (if not born there, a specific migration had to have brought i.e. R1b and Indo-Europeans Westward migration) and the TMRCA to see what was going on during this time period to see what possible connections can be made. The absolute best way would always be ancient dna, btw a good example would be E-V13 many people think it would have been born in the Balkans yet the oldest E-V13 was found in Spain.

For the ethnogenesis of Slavs, Scythian and Sarmatians played a huge role thus it makes it important to this discussion.

Garrick
18-07-17, 01:10
I personally do not believe that, there is also one in France. People migrate, all this tells me is that I-CTS10228 came from the East, to me theres two strong indicators of origin of a subclade who is the highest frequency today (if not born there, a specific migration had to have brought i.e. R1b and Indo-Europeans Westward migration) and the TMRCA to see what was going on during this time period to see what possible connections can be made. The absolute best way would always be ancient dna, btw a good example would be E-V13 many people think it would have been born in the Balkans yet the oldest E-V13 was found in Spain.

For the ethnogenesis of Slavs, Scythian and Sarmatians played a huge role thus it makes it important to this discussion.

Scythians and Sarmatians are important for ethnogenesis of Slavs but not for I-CTS10228. Although they could get it because of mix with Bastarnae.

Upper-middle course of Vistula is not randomly selected. Nordvedt investigated and determined TMRCA and territory of this haplogroup, and where it could emerge after bottleneck.

We can debate if Bastarnae were Celtic or German tribe, and probably they could be German/Celtic. There are authors who say first they Celtic and gradually became German. Today German view is closer. But they migrated and arrived to territory of Getae-Dacians and Sarmatians and they mixed with both. Poinesti Lukasevka culture is mostly Bastarnaian. And they arrived and and settled to the areas present day Romania, Serbia, Bulgaria etc.

Key is Zarubintsy culture, because I-CTS10228 was probably one of main haplogroup.

Zarubintsy culture, red.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Przeworsk_culture.png

Pan Slavist scientists spoke it is proto-Slavic. It is rejected.

Some scientists thought it is Sarmatian or Scythian. Some scientists argued it is Celtic. And they can be right. Because all of mentioned had influence.

But developed Zarubintsy culture was mostly Bastarnaian with Scirii. Scientists detailed investigated (archeology, pottery, fibula, etc.), and determined.

Sile
18-07-17, 01:37
I personally do not believe that, there is also one in France. People migrate, all this tells me is that I-CTS10228 came from the East, to me theres two strong indicators of origin of a subclade who is the highest frequency today (if not born there, a specific migration had to have brought i.e. R1b and Indo-Europeans Westward migration) and the TMRCA to see what was going on during this time period to see what possible connections can be made. The absolute best way would always be ancient dna, btw a good example would be E-V13 many people think it would have been born in the Balkans yet the oldest E-V13 was found in Spain.

For the ethnogenesis of Slavs, Scythian and Sarmatians played a huge role thus it makes it important to this discussion.

you do not believe what?

as an example, for me ( in yfull ) I have a negative marker which is 500 years older than the first person with that as a positive marker ( for same subclade) and as per yfull written notes to me , the negative is always older

Leka
18-07-17, 01:37
and the slavs where not there at the time of CTS10228 ...................you are more than 1000 years difference


You do realise that there where no slavs in poland around 300BC, ...........lets hope you understand now

And your point is? You keep repeating it like a parrot.

Sile
18-07-17, 01:43
And your point is? You keep repeating it like a parrot.

my point is that the marker cannot be slavic if it originates in areas where slavs where not there at that point in time .............is that easy for you to understand.

Azzurro
18-07-17, 03:40
you do not believe what?

as an example, for me ( in yfull ) I have a negative marker which is 500 years older than the first person with that as a positive marker ( for same subclade) and as per yfull written notes to me , the negative is always older

That the negative is necessarily the origin of a subclade. And the TMRCA's in my opinion are not set in stone some might be older and some younger, I think each haplogroup has its own snp mutation rate. It could even turn out if I2 would mutate faster than CTS10228 being Slavic would be 100% if its older than it could be 100% Getae, I am sure as the years go by it will be more precise.

Even in your example how about if a BigY result turns out to be in the same negative as you, and transfers to Yfull and is listed at the same position but this persons country of origin is Egypt or Russia so now where would you think your subclade was born? Is it Italy or Egypt/Russia? That's why ancient dna is the absolute best solution because that will tell you where your clade was born.

Sile
18-07-17, 06:32
That the negative is necessarily the origin of a subclade. And the TMRCA's in my opinion are not set in stone some might be older and some younger, I think each haplogroup has its own snp mutation rate. It could even turn out if I2 would mutate faster than CTS10228 being Slavic would be 100% if its older than it could be 100% Getae, I am sure as the years go by it will be more precise.

Even in your example how about if a BigY result turns out to be in the same negative as you, and transfers to Yfull and is listed at the same position but this persons country of origin is Egypt or Russia so now where would you think your subclade was born? Is it Italy or Egypt/Russia? That's why ancient dna is the absolute best solution because that will tell you where your clade was born.

here is part of cts10228 in yfull 5.04v

https://s3.postimg.org/fwsrs0c4j/i2a.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/rlwrfz333/)

its age is 5300ybp

ybp is set at = 1950 AD

so age of CTS10228 is 1950-5300 = 3350BC ............that is the age of the first positive CTS10228 .................who do you think was around in south Poland in 3350BC ?


then we have TMRCA
(TMRCA) estimates can be given based on DNA test results and established mutation rates as practiced in genetic genealogy,

so that result is 1950-2300 = 350BC ..............again who was in south Poland at the time of 350BC .................we all know it was not slavic or are you trying to rewrite history ?

............................

CTS10228 came from

I-CTS4002SK1240/YP198/S23503 * CTS10936 * YP195/S24427+6 SNPsformed 6600 ybp, TMRCA 5300 ybp info

so it's negative ( if it is found ) would be 1300 older than 3350BC

Kingslav
18-07-17, 08:00
Do you really believe it is a celtic marker? https://www.academia.edu/31354293/THE_BARBARIAN_DANUBE_-_On_Celtic_Settlements_and_Fortifications_on_the_L ower_Danube http://www.eliznik.org.uk/EastEurope/History/balkans-map/late-eneolithic.htm

^ in the link maps of Balkans with detailed history and summary 3500 BC and other maps included.

I2A-DIN originated in the region south of Carpathians due to mixing of Early Neolithic European Farmers, and Indo-European Pontic Steppe Invaders. In this region were Thracians, Dacians, Bastarnae and Steppe Invaders were mostly Sarmatians, Scythians. The Carpathian Mountains were a forested refuge during last Ice Age which thrived human survival. Other parts of Europe were covered by Tundra or Glaciers.

Celts had short period occupying around Hungarian Plain during Iron Age, later migrating. They could not carry the marker I-CTS10228.

Kingslav
18-07-17, 08:32
Everyone can see this chart.

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/East-European-admixture.gif
I2a-Din has peak in Herzegovina and East-European admixture there is very low.

In most parts of Serbia, Croatia and northern Bosnia East European admixture is similar as Eastern Germany, Eastern Austria, Hungary and Romania and much smaller than in Eastern Poland, Balarus or Western Russia. Maciamo wrote: "Note the resemblance with the distribution of Y-DNA haplogroup R1a (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#distribution).."

This is good proof. When you look closely at map bulk of R1A admixture is located Northeastern Poland, Belarussia, Lithuania, Southern Latvia, Western Russia, Northern Ukraine but at that point where Carpathian Mountains begin there is a shift from R1A dominant to I2A dominant and this trend continues into Balkans where I2A found highest concentration in Bosnia 75%.