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Sile
05-09-13, 09:33
a link to a recent paper

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/hungarian-ancient-dna-and-origins-of.html#comment-form

Maciamo
05-09-13, 16:35
The EAA2013 abstracts (http://dienekes.blogspot.be/2013/09/eaa-2013-abstracts.html) show that a lot of ancient DNA studies will be published soon, especially from Neolithic eastern Europe. The abstracts seem to agree that different Neolithic cultures in south-east Europe were founded by different people. There should also be Y-DNA results, including from the Early Neolithic Starčevo culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star%C4%8Devo_culture).

Fire Haired
06-09-13, 02:32
An assembly of disarticulated human remains deposited in the center of the construction dated to the Eneolithic (4200 BC). On the other hand, the layout of stones comprising the “Tortoise” appears to most accurately line up with the movement of celestial objects as they appeared on the sky around 6300 BC.Mitochondrial DNA lineage extracted from the remains was characteristic to the Mesolithic/Neolithic hunter-gatherer populations from northern Europe as well as Bronze Age groups from south Siberia.

Maciamo what do u think of this it is from the link u showed. When they say Bronze and south Siberians they mean early Indo Iranian speakers like Andronovo culture with Y DNa R1a1(probably R1a1a1b2 Z93 not sure if they tested for that or whatever). I was thinking that maybe the Indo Iranians when i say that i mean proto Indo Iranian speakers and ones that barely inter married while in asia like Sycthains. Maybe they were conquered by a R1a1a1b S224 people but their ancestry is mainly from a group of hunter gathers or farmers from northern Russia. So looking at their mtDNA would really tell their origin. click here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?90089-Where-did-proto-Indo-Iranian-speakers-ancestry-orignate)i was trying to figure out were they came from by mtDNa, hair color, and eye color. Something that was unique is that mtDNA T1 was 10,3% of their mtDNA do u know of any European people like that because T2 is almost completly dominte and T1 never comes close to being that high.

My best guess was they came from kind of northeastern border of Europe. Maybe they ancestry was mainly from hunter gathers conquered by Indo Europeans.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=37091&d=1378427457

LeBrok
06-09-13, 02:46
The EAA2013 abstracts (http://dienekes.blogspot.be/2013/09/eaa-2013-abstracts.html) show that a lot of ancient DNA studies will be published soon, especially from Neolithic eastern Europe. The abstracts seem to agree that different Neolithic cultures in south-east Europe were founded by different people. There should also be Y-DNA results, including from the Early Neolithic Starčevo culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star%C4%8Devo_culture).
Now you got me excited. :)

Fire Haired
06-09-13, 02:49
The EAA2013 abstracts (http://dienekes.blogspot.be/2013/09/eaa-2013-abstracts.html) show that a lot of ancient DNA studies will be published soon, especially from Neolithic eastern Europe. The abstracts seem to agree that different Neolithic cultures in south-east Europe were founded by different people. There should also be Y-DNA results, including from the Early Neolithic Starčevo culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star%C4%8Devo_culture).

All of them come from This thing called 19th EAA Annual Meeting. They say it lasts from September 4th-8th so does this mean they will make all those results including Y DNA public.

Fire Haired
06-09-13, 03:12
There should also be Y-DNA results, including from the Early Neolithic Starčevo culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star%C4%8Devo_culture).

If Starcevo culture was somehow related to LBK, Cardiel, basically the farmers in central Europe, Italy, and Spain. G2a is a good guess it seems like farming in most of Europe was spread by farmers who went back to the same father culture and had alot of G2a. Also 24 of 31 Y DNA samples had G2a from Neolithic Germany(=3), south western France(=22), Alps Italy(=1), and northern Spain(=4).

Since There has already been a 7,000ybp E1b1b V13 found in Neolithic northern Spain. And that E1b1b V13 today in Europe is centered around most of Starcevo culture and that it would have gotten to Spain from the east. That E1b1b V13 is also a good guess. If the farmers did not not inter marry and stayed separate from the hunter gathers like what aust dna from 5,000ybp Gok4 in south swedan and 5,300ybp Otzie in alps italy show they did this at least a little bit. I would not except I2a1b but if they did inter marry with the hunter gathers I2a1b is possible. And maybe there could be a J1 or J2.

nordicwarrior
06-09-13, 04:30
I wonder what surprises will be discovered in Neolithic Eastern Europe? This area seems to hold the promise of quite the mix of ancient tribes. I won der what they will find?

Fire Haired
06-09-13, 04:53
It seems like to me since 7,000 year old Neloithic north Spain and north Germany from two seperate cultures cardiel and LBK had G2a. Also that 19 of 22 5,000ybp Y DNa from southwestern france had G2a. and that the random finding of 5,300 year old otzie the iceman in alps italy had G2a. that the people who spread farming acroos Europe may have had a language family, with distinct Y DNa like Germanic Italo Celtic R1b L51 maybe they were some subclade of G2a. I think farming in most of europe came from the same father culture and may have spread kind of like Indo Europeans. It seems like Afro Asitic languages might be connected with E1b1b but probably not if it is maybe since E11b V13 did exist in Neolithic Europeans maybe was spread in the Neolithic that they spoke a Afro Asiatic language.

GloomyGonzales
06-09-13, 06:04
I wonder what surprises will be discovered in Neolithic Eastern Europe? This area seems to hold the promise of quite the mix of ancient tribes. I won der what they will find?

There can be no surprises the majority of Y-DNA from LBK sites will turn out to be R1a. It's the only haplo that makes sense for this culture.

GloomyGonzales
06-09-13, 06:10
I hope the data about Y-DNA caldes from LBK sites (I predict predominantly R1a clades ) will kill once and forever this stupid Gimbutas's idea about IE people migration from Pontic steppe.

Maciamo
06-09-13, 11:40
There can be no surprises the majority of Y-DNA from LBK sites will turn out to be R1a. It's the only haplo that makes sense for this culture.

I very much disagree with that. I would rather imagine G2a, E1b1b, T and perhaps also J1 and I2. There might be some R1a, but then it would be M417 or earlier subclades, which have no connection to modern Indo-European R1a.

Sile
06-09-13, 13:40
I hope the data about Y-DNA caldes from LBK sites (I predict predominantly R1a clades ) will kill once and forever this stupid Gimbutas's idea about IE people migration from Pontic steppe.

you mean this is wrong!

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/7131/i12u.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/9/i12u.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

sparkey
06-09-13, 18:58
I very much disagree with that. I would rather imagine G2a, E1b1b, T and perhaps also J1 and I2.

Is the omission of J2 deliberate? (Not a challenge, I'm not a J2 expert, and I wonder about that.)

Maciamo
06-09-13, 19:15
Is the omission of J2 deliberate? (Not a challenge, I'm not a J2 expert, and I wonder about that.)

While the distribution of J1 in Europe clearly correlates with other Neolithic haplogroup, J2 doesn't, except perhaps J2b. If J2a came during the Neolithic it would have followed the southern route from Greece to Italy and perhaps further to France and Iberia, but probably not through Southeast Europe, and even less through the LBK.

GloomyGonzales
06-09-13, 21:09
I very much disagree with that. I would rather imagine G2a, E1b1b, T and perhaps also J1 and I2. There might be some R1a, but then it would be M417 or earlier subclades, which have no connection to modern Indo-European R1a.

AFAIK from all the clades you have mentioned only European clades of G2a are old enough to be present in Europe 5500-4500 BC. Concerning R1a clades in Europe the oldest ones were found on the Balkans (age ~9000 BP) while M198- and M417- clades were mostly found in Western Europe so we can safely conclude that there were old settlements of R1a people between the Balkans and Western Europe and this is exactly where Pannonia is located. If we take into account the fact that the age of SNPs M198 and M417 pretty much correlate with the timing of LBK culture and H mtDNA clades were found at these LBK sites we can safely deduce that R1a people have direct connection to LBK culture.

Sile
07-09-13, 00:08
Is the omission of J2 deliberate? (Not a challenge, I'm not a J2 expert, and I wonder about that.)

I wondered about this too, but to most people J2 marker, represents the sea-going Phoenicians, along with the part time sea-going T haplotype, they both landed in similar coastal area. traders preferred the easy sea passage than overland.

Fire Haired
07-09-13, 01:07
AFAIK from all the clades you have mentioned only European clades of G2a are old enough to be present in Europe 5500-4500 BC. Concerning R1a clades in Europe the oldest ones were found on the Balkans (age ~9000 BC) while M198- and M417- clades were mostly found in Western Europe so we can safely conclude that there were old settlements of R1a people between the Balkans and Western Europe and this is exactly where Pannonia is located. If we take into account the fact that the age of SNPs M198 and M417 pretty much correlate with the timing of LBK culture and H mtDNA clades were found at these LBK sites we can safely deduce that R1a people have direct connection to LBK culture.

This stuff u are saying about LBK R1a and INdo European not being R1a is total BS. How do u explain that from 31 Y DNa samples of Neloithic Europe 24 G2a, 4 I2a1a m26, one E1b V13, one F(i bet a decendant), and one F or one of its decendants. Also how do u explain that according to the Kurgen theory Corded ware culture brough balto Slavic languages. and two 4,600ybp Y DNa sample sfrom Corded ware both R1a1. also according to the Kurgen theory Andronovo culture in siberia are suppose to be early Indo Iranian speakers three Y DNa samples two r1a1 and one C. Also how do u explain 4,000 year old tarim mummies west china they were mixed european east asian, proto Indo iranian speakers came out of Russia so if there was a huge migration of european people in asia around that yime it would make sense they were Indo Iranians. all 7 samples had R1a1a.

How do u expplain that modern day Indo Iranian and Balto Slavic speakers have very igh amounts of R1a. They actulley are borther in the R1a tree Balto Slavic R1a1a1b1 Z283 and Indo Iranian r1a1a1b2 Z93 age estimates point to a bronze age Indo Eurpean migration oit of areas were the Kurgen theory says those language migrated from. It all connects. rember what i said about neloithic western european Y DNA. Germanic Italo Celtic R1b L51 according to what Maciamo and age esstimates did not arrive in western europe untill the early bronze age about 5,000ybp. And the first culture they mixed and conquered would be Bell Beaker. two 4,600 year old bell beaker y DNa both R1b. Everything connects Indo European migrations really took off in the bronze age starting 5,000ybp. So not Neolithic. We already have three Y DNa samples from LBK G2a3 L30, F*(i think a decendant), and F or one of its dependents. No R1a i guess it is possible one of the F's were but the G2a is not a suprise when u consider Y DNA from other Neloithic western Europeans.

For more on y DNa spread by Indo Europeans in my opinon click here, (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?91971-Y-DNA-spread-by-Indo-Europeans-(R1a1a1-M417-R1b1a2a1-L51)-(R1b1a2a-L23-R1b1a1-M73-Etc-))
And about Germanic Italo Celts click here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?89535-R1b-L51-L11-Germanic-Italo-Celts-Rulers-and-conqueres-of-Bronze-Iron-age-west-Europe)

INdo Iranians and Balto Slavs click here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?89686-Yamna-culture-source-of-Indo-Iranian-and-Balto-Slavic-languages-and-their-R1a)

Fire Haired
07-09-13, 01:07
I wondered about this too, but to most people J2 marker, represents the sea-going Phoenicians, along with the part time sea-going T haplotype, they both landed in similar coastal area. traders preferred the easy sea passage than overland.

But not all J2 is Phonicean just like not all R1b is Celtic.

Fire Haired
07-09-13, 01:31
While the distribution of J1 in Europe clearly correlates with other Neolithic haplogroup, J2 doesn't, except perhaps J2b. If J2a came during the Neolithic it would have followed the southern route from Greece to Italy and perhaps further to France and Iberia, but probably not through Southeast Europe, and even less through the LBK.

I think u come to quick conclusions when u say it correlates with Neolithic cultures. So much has changed since the Neloithic. Just because Italy today has the most G2a in Europe does not mean it was like that 5,000 years ago. G2a has probably been pounced all over the place and raised and lowered in certain area randomly. Like i remver u saying I2a1b in eastern Europe correlats with Cuc Tryp culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucuteni_culture). When i dont think u consider that about 50% of other eastern Europeans Y DNa is R1a which came with Corded ware culture 5,000ybp and Balto Slavic languages. I guess since Bug Dniester and Yamna culture are mainly in eastern Europe in those areas R1a would have already been very popular maybe all the way back 10,000ybp. But if u minus the R1a in Poland I2a1b might be just as popular as it is in Romania. I guess I2a1b also could have made big miragtions.

I think it is pretty obvisous alot of E1b1b, J1, and J2 came in Greco Roman age at least for Italy and southeast Europe, Because they have so much more mid eastern blood in aust dna test than other europeans. They in the globe13 have 20-24% west asian, 15-18% southwest asian while other Europeans have uselly under 8% for west asian and under 4% for southwest asian. and the amount of those too groups are centered in Greece and southern Italy and pretty popular throughout Itay and areas near Greece. There is no way that is Neloithic since No other Europeans have it is mainly Italy and Greece the only areas with real civlizations connected to the mid east in Europe over 2,000ybp. When u compare the southwest asian west asian percetages southeast Europeans and Italians inter married with the same group of Mid eastern who would have come from around Syria and Iraq. So there was a huge mid eastern gene flow in Italy and southeast europe in the Greco Roman age through the meditreaen u should except to see alot of J1 and J2. Also u rember the R1b ht35 map u made did u see how meditreaen europe had some mid eastern R1b L23 and Z2103 when heir major haplogroups is J so think about how much J is from them

GloomyGonzales
07-09-13, 06:42
This stuff u are saying about LBK R1a and INdo European not being R1a is total BS. How do u explain that from 31 Y DNa samples of Neloithic Europe 24 G2a, 4 I2a1a m26, one E1b V13, one F(i bet a decendant), and one F or one of its decendants. Also how do u explain that according to the Kurgen theory Corded ware culture brough balto Slavic languages. and two 4,600ybp Y DNa sample sfrom Corded ware both R1a1. also according to the Kurgen theory Andronovo culture in siberia are suppose to be early Indo Iranian speakers three Y DNa samples two r1a1 and one C. Also how do u explain 4,000 year old tarim mummies west china they were mixed european east asian, proto Indo iranian speakers came out of Russia so if there was a huge migration of european people in asia around that yime it would make sense they were Indo Iranians. all 7 samples had R1a1a.


Man, I've never told that R1a folks are not IE. Surely they are. I just disagree with the idea that R1a folks have come to Europe from Pontic Steppes. The age of R1a clades in Ukraine and Russia is in a range from 5000 to 4000 years old (~4500 y.o.) while some Balkanic and Western European clades of R1a are in a range from 7000 to 5000 years old. That means that r1a folks have come to Pontic Steppes from Central Europe but not otherwise.

Fire Haired
07-09-13, 07:12
Man, I've never told that R1a folks are not IE. Surely they are. I just disagree with the idea that R1a folks have come to Europe from Pontic Steppes. The age of R1a clades in Ukraine and Russia is in a range from 5000 to 4000 years old (~4500 y.o.) while some Balkanic and Western European clades of R1a are in a range from 7000 to 5000 years old. That means that r1a folks have come to Pontic Steppes from Central Europe but not otherwise.

What clades are u talking about. U should look at Eupedia R1a page (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml). Were it gives a R1a family tree it does not give evry little detail but the basic picture. What clades in the Balkinic are u talking about because if they have R1a1a1b1 it somehow is connected with Balto Slavs. It matter where their clade is postined on the tree. Everything points to migrations for Indo iranian and Balto SLavic languages with r1a1a1 M417 out of the steppes of Russia and Ukriane. Bug Dniester (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBug-Dniester_culture&ei=sLUqUrLLJNP5rAHvqYG4Aw&usg=AFQjCNHQKNUzmeoTFscYPQM6QXpnP6SRCA&sig2=BHrEGZ-bfGkcI6rrqFwCdw&bvm=bv.51773540,d.aWM) and Yaman culture (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDYQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FYamna_c ulture&ei=sLUqUrLLJNP5rAHvqYG4Aw&usg=AFQjCNHb6Rh3o3cAWFpKHCAPoWXk2Xd4rQ&sig2=VZ3K6CnnPXQBv1iQ8DVxcQ&bvm=bv.51773540,d.aWM).

GloomyGonzales
07-09-13, 08:12
What clades are u talking about. U should look at Eupedia R1a page (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml). Were it gives a R1a family tree it does not give evry little detail but the basic picture. What clades in the Balkinic are u talking about because if they have R1a1a1b1 it somehow is connected with Balto Slavs. It matter where their clade is postined on the tree. Everything points to migrations for Indo iranian and Balto SLavic languages with r1a1a1 M417 out of the steppes of Russia and Ukriane. Bug Dniester (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBug-Dniester_culture&ei=sLUqUrLLJNP5rAHvqYG4Aw&usg=AFQjCNHQKNUzmeoTFscYPQM6QXpnP6SRCA&sig2=BHrEGZ-bfGkcI6rrqFwCdw&bvm=bv.51773540,d.aWM) and Yaman culture (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDYQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FYamna_c ulture&ei=sLUqUrLLJNP5rAHvqYG4Aw&usg=AFQjCNHb6Rh3o3cAWFpKHCAPoWXk2Xd4rQ&sig2=VZ3K6CnnPXQBv1iQ8DVxcQ&bvm=bv.51773540,d.aWM).

I'm talking about clades upstream from M417.
Here's the map for these clades:
http://radikal.cc/Img/ShowUploadedImg?id=26fff741a5da43d7b8e5053f6b90fcd 7

Fire Haired
07-09-13, 08:55
I'm talking about clades upstream from M417.
Here's the map for these clades:
http://radikal.cc/Img/ShowUploadedImg?id=26fff741a5da43d7b8e5053f6b90fcd 7

I have seen that map before it is not as good as a map that shows percentages. al that shows is people they have found with it. It does not give an idea how it is distributed. That is not good enough evidence

GloomyGonzales
07-09-13, 10:08
I have seen that map before it is not as good as a map that shows percentages. al that shows is people they have found with it. It does not give an idea how it is distributed. That is not good enough evidence

You say pretty much stupid things percentages have nothing to do with origin and migration route of certain haplos.

Fire Haired
07-09-13, 10:10
You say pretty much stupid things percentages have nothing to do with origin and migration route of certain haplos.

It seems u are using that as ur argument. I am saying that map is unrelible when they dont show percenatges it doesnt show how it is distributed. There is no doubt R1a1a1 M417 has a Ukriane origin with Bug Denister culture and very early Indo Europeans possible proto Indo Europeans.

GloomyGonzales
07-09-13, 12:44
It seems u are using that as ur argument. I am saying that map is unrelible when they dont show percenatges it doesnt show how it is distributed. There is no doubt R1a1a1 M417 has a Ukriane origin with Bug Denister culture and very early Indo Europeans possible proto Indo Europeans.

The majority of males from USA carry R1b Y-DNA. Does it tell us something about origin of R1b haplo? Surely not. The main haplo among American Indians is Q1a. Does it tell us something about origin of Q1a haplo? Surely not. ~ 65% of Finnish men have N1c haplo while the share of this haplo among Polish men makes ~ 5%. Does it mean that Polish guys with N1c have come from Finland. Surely not. The share of R1b among Irish males makes ~90% while the share of this haplo among Jews makes ~10%. Does it mean that Jews carrying r1b haplo have Irish ancestry? Surely not. Why do we know it? Coz we know their clades. Clades tell the story of migration and origin while percentages tell the story of success or failure of some clades in certain geographic location.

Silesian
07-09-13, 14:31
You say pretty much stupid things percentages have nothing to do with origin and migration route of certain haplos.

Here I thought your posts were of topic convoluted drivel, you have proved me wrong with your clear "coz we know their clades" intellect. You set the standard high in your knowledge of migration routes and haplos. Typical, R1a spam/agenda.