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Garrick
12-09-13, 14:13
LeBrok
Yes, you’re right, democracy is the best solution.

But problems are complex and quick fixes are not good. Because for quick fixes in the longer terms result as the worst solutions.

Sparkley explained very clearly:




The Syrian Civil War has much more to do with Shia vs. Sunni than it does dictatorship vs. democracy. Letting the rebels win may bring somebody worse than Assad to power. And that's not to mention the vengeance that would ensue! I would hate to be an Alawite if Assad loses the war. Even the Melkites could be wiped out. This is way more serious than playing good guys/bad guys.

If someone cannot take account complexity of situation, Syria would quickly lost Shiites and all ethnic and religious groups that have supported Assad. You agree that it is not good solution.

Key decision makers can improve the ways how to solve complex problems. I think it is not good strategy win-lost, where one side gets all and another nothing. In a long term win-win solutions are the best.

You have an example of Kosovo. Before 1999 in Kosovo lived Serbs, Gorans, Roma etc. After 1999 Kosovo became ethnically pure Albanian.

It is not good for all, including Albanians. Today Kosovo is least developed part of Europe and very poor. Serbia has a lot invested in Kosovo and, for a time 20-30 years ago, Kosovo had a very rapid development. Sustainability is a problem in the long term. Kosovo today would have much better perspective that the Serbs remained.

And certainly it could be found a win-win solution. Complex problems require a longer time to solution but solutions are long-term and sustainable, quick solutions are wrong. And to reiterate what I said, democracy is the best way, but for democracy specific conditions must be created, it takes a more time and engagement, but leads to much better and more sustainable solutions.

FBS
12-09-13, 14:19
@LeBrok
The definition of democracy? OK, let me remember from high school... it was somewhere in old Greece - We lay down in the sun, theoretizing and making philosophy, while slaves work for us. Good enough?

@FBS
Maybe we share same views, I don't know much about him. Anyway, I doubt I'd be soldier for anyone.

@Alan Don't overreact. There is no hatred for everything that is American. Just for that part where they intrude on others, and impose them their democracy.



You people tell that Saddam made war campaigns that ended in killing tens of thousands of Kurds, and declare it a genocide. OK. But when Turkey does the same or worse thing, then there is no reaction. Why? I have no other explanation except for it is a NATO member. If you wanted democracy, why hasn't anyone pleaded for Kurdish independence. We all know there are ~ 30.000.000 Kurds around here, and they get slaughtered by everyone around for decades:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/Kurdish-inhabited_area_by_CIA_(1992).jpg/734px-Kurdish-inhabited_area_by_CIA_(1992).jpg

I agree regarding the Kurdish question. But, there is something going on even in Turkey. If you sit and talk with Turkish people who live abroad but go to Turkey very often, they have a feeling that there is something wrong going on with their country, same feeling of uncertainty that we had in Yugoslavia before everything went "down the drains". So: Iraq, Syria, most probably Iran and the last one will be Turkey?! Is it possible? - even I do not believe in it, and I listened in disbelief the Turks who were speaking in fear of their country future, and possible involvement of US in partitioning it, but there is a "smoke" I guess. Even though political stances and plans might change overnight, that is how we humans are - adaptable and opportunistic. Turks fear that Erdogan has a mission in destroying Turkey, something that Serb citizens used to say about Milosevic, claiming that he was a CIA guy, before the heavy conflicts started. Fiction?

FBS
12-09-13, 14:56
LeBrok
Yes, you’re right, democracy is the best solution.

But problems are complex and quick fixes are not good. Because for quick fixes in the longer terms result as the worst solutions.

Sparkley explained very clearly:



If someone cannot take account complexity of situation, Syria would quickly lost Shiites and all ethnic and religious groups that have supported Assad. You agree that it is not good solution.

Key decision makers can improve the ways how to solve complex problems. I think it is not good strategy win-lost, where one side gets all and another nothing. In a long term win-win solutions are the best.

You have an example of Kosovo. Before 1999 in Kosovo lived Serbs, Gorans, Roma etc. After 1999 Kosovo became ethnically pure Albanian.

It is not good for all, including Albanians. Today Kosovo is least developed part of Europe and very poor. Serbia has a lot invested in Kosovo and, for a time 20-30 years ago, Kosovo had a very rapid development. Sustainability is a problem in the long term. Kosovo today would have much better perspective that the Serbs remained.

And certainly it could be found a win-win solution. Complex problems require a longer time to solution but solutions are long-term and sustainable, quick solutions are wrong. And to reiterate what I said, democracy is the best way, but for democracy specific conditions must be created, it takes a more time and engagement, but leads to much better and more sustainable solutions.

I am sorry Garrick but in Kosovo we have Serbs, Montenegrin, Bosniaks, Turks, Gorani, Croats, Roma, Ashkali, Egyptians. All of them have their parties represented locally and centrally.

We have Serb ministers and deputy prime ministers http://www.kryeministri-ks.net/?page=2,43,30 & http://www.kryeministri-ks.net/?page=2,6,1836, http://www.kryeministri-ks.net/?page=2,43,25
Turk ministers http://www.kryeministri-ks.net/?page=2,43,27.

We have Montenegro house in the center of Prishtina https://www.facebook.com/pages/Montenegro-House/309874715710558.

The Serbs of North are finally getting inside the constitutional system of Kosova in November 2013. You should follow the talks more closely, (among other news) http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics.php?yyyy=2013&mm=07&dd=24&nav_id=87062.

Croat president visited the small community of Croats in Janjeva http://www.president-ksgov.net/?page=2,6,3015.

Kosovo is multi-ethnic. Albanian, Serbian and Turkish language are official languages and English. All the official documents are in four languages, and my recent birth certificate was signed by a Serb that works in the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Kosovo.

The only problem is that Serb community in the north does not want to get integrated in Kosovo system since they do not recognize Kosovo (mind you it is a parallel system created for the sake of crime & shady businesses since they do not pay taxes to anyone) while they do not bother about the Serbs that are in other parts of Kosovo.

The final results of the international involvement in Kosovo for us “mortals” are very good. Finally we have started to breathe and live normally, with no tanks and military on the streets, no tear gas and no curfews. You should first visit the country that you are talking about and then write about them. I see that you have no clue what is going on in Kosovo.

FBS
12-09-13, 15:05
@Garrick

One more link regarding the Gorani and Bosniak community and the visit of Minister (of Kosovo) who is a Serb: http://www.demotix.com/news/2486653/minister-community-and-return-dalibor-jevti-visited-dragash#media-2484843

Garrick
12-09-13, 16:03
I am sorry Garrick but in Kosovo we have Serbs, Montenegrin, Bosniaks, Turks, Gorani, Croats, Roma, Ashkali, Egyptians. All of them have their parties represented locally and centrally.

We have Serb ministers and deputy prime ministers http://www.kryeministri-ks.net/?page=2,43,30 & http://www.kryeministri-ks.net/?page=2,6,1836, http://www.kryeministri-ks.net/?page=2,43,25
Turk ministers http://www.kryeministri-ks.net/?page=2,43,27.

We have Montenegro house in the center of Prishtina https://www.facebook.com/pages/Montenegro-House/309874715710558.

The Serbs of North are finally getting inside the constitutional system of Kosova in November 2013. You should follow the talks more closely, (among other news) http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics.php?yyyy=2013&mm=07&dd=24&nav_id=87062.

Croat president visited the small community of Croats in Janjeva http://www.president-ksgov.net/?page=2,6,3015.

Kosovo is multi-ethnic. Albanian, Serbian and Turkish language are official languages and English. All the official documents are in four languages, and my recent birth certificate was signed by a Serb that works in the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Kosovo.

The only problem is that Serb community in the north does not want to get integrated in Kosovo system since they do not recognize Kosovo (mind you it is a parallel system created for the sake of crime & shady businesses since they do not pay taxes to anyone) while they do not bother about the Serbs that are in other parts of Kosovo.

The final results of the international involvement in Kosovo for us “mortals” are very good. Finally we have started to breathe and live normally, with no tanks and military on the streets, no tear gas and no curfews. You should first visit the country that you are talking about and then write about them. I see that you have no clue what is going on in Kosovo.

You can see. According last census performed in Yugoslavia, in Kosovo lived:

Serbs and Montenegrins 15.12%
Bosniacs and Gorans (then writted as Muslims) 3.7%
Roma 2.15%
Turks 0.79%
Croats 0.55%

After only several months 1999, Kosovo became almost ethnically pure. People have become refugees.
Today all minorities in Kosovo about you write are less than 7%. And it is reality.

If in Syria apply the same principle the same can happen. And, you agree, it is not good way.

FBS
12-09-13, 16:32
I apologize to others, since this thread has to do with Syria but I feel obliged to answer to all of those who did not experience in their skin the danger of getting wiped out as a nation and then to be saved by "the bad guys". I was in Kosovo all the time and still am here and I witnessed everything myself.

@Garrick
Percentages are different, what do you expect after such a conflict, but the fact is that Kosovo is not (quote your words) "ethnically pure Albanian" and the international community (US and EU) are very determined to do it right till the end. So the "bad guys" are not that bad after all, things are not always black and white. That is why we have a minister for return who is a Serb, in order to bring back those that would like to come back. But people will chose where they want to live. It is the same with Albanians who fled during the war and during the Milosevic regime, a lot of them did not come back.

Ike
12-09-13, 16:34
Kosovo is a very complex subject, that goes beyond of what US is willing to see(and this thread). I wouldn't talk about details in here, cause it deserves at least its' own thread, but I suppose it will get so hot in there, that there is no point in starting it :)

For what is worth, it's good thing that there is finally some sort of effort shown on all three sides (EU, Serbian, Albanian) so that there is a hope for political solution. I personally think that both Serbs and Albanians should forget about final solution for now, and orientate on regulating life in the area - water, food, electricity, medical care, social security, education, infrastructure (roads, bridges, railways), communications (mobile, internet), etc..

There are a lot of important problems in present moment, and it will take years to sort that out. Maybe in a decade of two, in a new and refreshed Kosovo society, some new generations will be able to find a solution for the problem (which we weren't capable of).

Garrick
12-09-13, 17:09
I apologize to others, since this thread has to do with Syria but I feel obliged to answer to all of those who did not experience in their skin the danger of getting wiped out as a nation and then to be saved by "the bad guys". I was in Kosovo all the time and still am here and I witnessed everything myself.

@Garrick
Percentages are different, what do you expect after such a conflict, but the fact is that Kosovo is not (quote your words) "ethnically pure Albanian" and the international community (US and EU) are very determined to do it right till the end. So the "bad guys" are not that bad after all, things are not always black and white. That is why we have a minister for return who is a Serb, in order to bring back those that would like to come back. But people will chose where they want to live. It is the same with Albanians who fled during the war and during the Milosevic regime, a lot of them did not come back.

I am talking about Syria.

Quick solution for Serbia led that Kosovo today is ethnic cleanest land in Europe. Over 93% inhabitants of Kosovo today are Albanians. You almost cannot find no country from south to north of Europe so ethnically pure.

Syria can be same example if key decision makers make quick fixes. Problems are complex and require adequate and sustainable long-term solutions. This requires more time and commitment but in the long run leads to winning position.

Garrick
12-09-13, 20:52
Kosovo is a very complex subject, that goes beyond of what US is willing to see(and this thread). I wouldn't talk about details in here, cause it deserves at least its' own thread, but I suppose it will get so hot in there, that there is no point in starting it :)

For what is worth, it's good thing that there is finally some sort of effort shown on all three sides (EU, Serbian, Albanian) so that there is a hope for political solution. I personally think that both Serbs and Albanians should forget about final solution for now, and orientate on regulating life in the area - water, food, electricity, medical care, social security, education, infrastructure (roads, bridges, railways), communications (mobile, internet), etc..

There are a lot of important problems in present moment, and it will take years to sort that out. Maybe in a decade of two, in a new and refreshed Kosovo society, some new generations will be able to find a solution for the problem (which we weren't capable of).

Yes, Kosovo is complex, and Syria is complex. These days more politicians compare Syria and Kosovo, including American president Mr. Obama. American president was awarded the Nobel peace prize. Americans are now more cautious because they know what happened in Kosovo after June 1999.

American Cato institute (2000):

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/natos-disastrous-victory-kosovo

“NATO’s attack was supposed to bring peace to this territory of Yugoslavia. But immediately after Washington’s “triumph” came the mass flight of ethnic Serbs.

Those who did not run, including Croats, Gypsies, Jews and even non-Albanian Muslims, have been bombed, shot, kidnapped, beaten and robbed. Scores of orthodox churches, monasteries and other religious sites have been despoiled.

Gen. Klaus Reinhardt, head of the NATO “peacekeeping” force (KFOR), admits that Kosovo remains too dangerous for the 150,000 to 250,000 refugees to return.”

American Cato institute (2013):

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/biggest-fool-all

“Of course, Clinton ignored the fact that the triumphant ethnic Albanians then engaged in their own campaign of ethnic cleansing — while U.S. troops were occupying Kosovo.”

And in Syria this situation can be repeated. The solution is not that Alawites and all ethnic and religious groups who support President Mr. Assad be wiped out. Solution for Syria should be long-term and sustainable. Of course democracy is the best way.

Ike
15-09-13, 01:17
Democracy, in which the majority will decide; and majority is for extermination of the minority :)

Sile
15-09-13, 02:11
Yes, Kosovo is complex, and Syria is complex. These days more politicians compare Syria and Kosovo, including American president Mr. Obama. American president was awarded the Nobel peace prize. Americans are now more cautious because they know what happened in Kosovo after June 1999.

American Cato institute (2000):

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/natos-disastrous-victory-kosovo

“NATO’s attack was supposed to bring peace to this territory of Yugoslavia. But immediately after Washington’s “triumph” came the mass flight of ethnic Serbs.

Those who did not run, including Croats, Gypsies, Jews and even non-Albanian Muslims, have been bombed, shot, kidnapped, beaten and robbed. Scores of orthodox churches, monasteries and other religious sites have been despoiled.

Gen. Klaus Reinhardt, head of the NATO “peacekeeping” force (KFOR), admits that Kosovo remains too dangerous for the 150,000 to 250,000 refugees to return.”

American Cato institute (2013):

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/biggest-fool-all

“Of course, Clinton ignored the fact that the triumphant ethnic Albanians then engaged in their own campaign of ethnic cleansing — while U.S. troops were occupying Kosovo.”

And in Syria this situation can be repeated. The solution is not that Alawites and all ethnic and religious groups who support President Mr. Assad be wiped out. Solution for Syria should be long-term and sustainable. Of course democracy is the best way.

the old french proposal ( when they ran syria decades ago) is being talked about as a political solution.....it is ...to split the nation in 3

Syria in the south
Assyria in middle and give the kurds some lands up north. Of course the turks and iraqs do not want to see a Kurdistan:rolleyes2:

FBS
15-09-13, 12:13
Democracy, in which the majority will decide; and majority is for extermination of the minority :)
Yeah, let's exterminate the majority for the sake of minority :) I see it is happening in Serbia, the minorities are running the country! Hell yeah, it's a model all over the modern world, only Kosovo is an exception where the majority is at power, strange...

Ike
15-09-13, 13:14
If you value the democratic development of the country with the engagement of minorities in state politics, Serbia would be one of the most democratic republics in the world since WW2 :)

Garrick
15-09-13, 13:37
Yeah, let's exterminate the majority for the sake of minority :) I see it is happening in Serbia, the minorities are running the country! Hell yeah, it's a model all over the modern world, only Kosovo is an exception where the majority is at power, strange...

Look this video:



That video can answer to you (i think u have see).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I64nIJscP44
In internet u can find so many video like this subbed in italian.

In Albania, Serbs was banned all: Serbian names and surnames, Serbian language, religion, culture, the right to education in their own language, basic human rights, etc. From the thirties to nineties Serbs in Albania are almost albanized. You can see in this video that in time king Zogu were discriminatory laws against Serbs. And especially discriminatory laws were in time of rule of Communist Enver Hoxa. Serbs and Montenegrins are prohibited ethnicity and violated human rights.

On the other side Albanians in Serbia and SFR Yugoslavia had all the rights, language, culture, religion, education in Albanian, all. And not only that. Republic of Serbia and Yugoslav federation gave heavily to develop areas which are inhabited by Albanians. As Serbian province, Serbia and SFR Yugoslavia invested in AP Kosovo over 18 billion dollars from 1961 to 1990. In time: 1956-1990 average rate of industrial growth in AP Kosovo was the 6.3%. From 1952 to 1990 GDP in AP Kosovo grew 5.4 times.

Compare, Serbs and Montenegrins in Albania suffered extinction. Albanians in Serbia had big progress. And Albanians from Albania came to live in Serbian province Kosovo because it was a better life and greater rights. Marko94 is objective and thanks for this educational video.

FBS
15-09-13, 15:57
If you value the democratic development of the country with the engagement of minorities in state politics, Serbia would be one of the most democratic republics in the world since WW2 :)
This is the most ironic joke I have ever heard. All the majority run states discriminate heavily other minorities not only on the ethnic basis but also on political affinities, class, regional language and customs (within the same ethnic group), the list is endless. Same is happening in Serbia as well. Your comments are childish and not in touch with reality, totally brainwashed as if the Serbs are the only angels on earth. Wake up and face the reality - grow up.

FBS
15-09-13, 16:40
There have always been bad things going on in Balkans between the nations on all sides, and there have been some nasty deeds from Serbian side since 1912 on Albanians. But now things are different, Balkans is trying to move on and join EU. Digging the past and becoming bitter about it will not help forget and forgive and try to see the future.

To balance your one sided "truth" try to read some of this: http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/kosovo/chap3.htm. Otherwise I hate to dig in the bitter past, but since you are bringing up the issue of Serbs in Albania that are none of my concern, since I am in Kosovo and I was part of Yugoslavia, I brought up the issue of Albanians in Kosovo under the governance of Serbia within Yugoslavia.

Things are never black and white, minorities exist everywhere and it is a hard work for the majority to get passed their egos, and in Kosovo is definitely going to get better. Why? Because the best solution for Kosovo is to get to EU - and one cannot get to be a part of a certain community if does not respect the regulations of that same community.

So let us focus each of us on making our own states better instead of digging the past and trying to find the wrongdoing only on the other side.

Luan
15-09-13, 18:23
On the other side Albanians in Serbia and SFR Yugoslavia had all the rights, language, culture, religion, education in Albanian, all. And not only that. Republic of Serbia and Yugoslav federation gave heavily to develop areas which are inhabited by Albanians. As Serbian province, Serbia and SFR Yugoslavia invested in AP Kosovo over 18 billion dollars from 1961 to 1990. In time: 1956-1990 average rate of industrial growth in AP Kosovo was the 6.3%. From 1952 to 1990 GDP in AP Kosovo grew 5.4 times.

Compare, Serbs and Montenegrins in Albania suffered extinction. Albanians in Serbia had big progress. And Albanians from Albania came to live in Serbian province Kosovo because it was a better life and greater rights. Marko94 is objective and thanks for this educational video.[/QUOTE]

More Serbian propaganda, I am old enough to know Serbian treatment on Albanian, I have lived through it. And my father and mother lived through it, my grandfather, who Serbs destroyed his house in his village. Stop your lies no matter what kosova is independent and we will never be with Serbia and never forget what Serbia have done.

Ike
15-09-13, 18:27
This is the most ironic joke I have ever heard. All the majority run states discriminate heavily other minorities not only on the ethnic basis but also on political affinities, class, regional language and customs (within the same ethnic group), the list is endless. Same is happening in Serbia as well. Your comments are childish and not in touch with reality, totally brainwashed as if the Serbs are the only angels on earth. Wake up and face the reality - grow up.

That was not a joke. Albanians were never discriminated in Serbia. I won't go into other matters since this is thread about Kosovo and you're probably Albanian, so lets stick to that one.

1. I need an explanation how could one minority, that was allegedly treated as Kosovo Albanians claim they were, managed to rise from 500.000 to 1.500.000?

2. Find me a region in which population rose 3x in a 40 years period?


6018

Garrick
15-09-13, 19:23
More Serbian propaganda, I am old enough to know Serbian treatment on Albanian, I have lived through it. And my father and mother lived through it, my grandfather, who Serbs destroyed his house in his village. Stop your lies no matter what kosova is independent and we will never be with Serbia and never forget what Serbia have done.

Only facts. Serbs and Montenegrins in Albania did not have basic human rights. For example find one school in Albania in Serbian. Serbs and Montenegrins had no right even to their names and surnames. They were discriminated as no one in Europe, and albanized.

Compare with Albanians in Serbian autonomous province of Kosovo. Albanians had school and colleges in Albanian. Serbia invested in education of Albanians. Albanians were MPs, members of the government, directors by state enterprises etc. The data about 18 billion dollars invested in Kosovo by Serbia and SFR Yugoslavia is right, and you can check if you do not beleive. Ike is right Serbia was one of the most republic in the world with great respects of human rights. Serbs and Montenegrins in Albania could only dream what they had Albanians in Serbia. So much for human rights in Serbia and Albania.

Luan you know it, and tell honestly, why Albanians from Albania came to live in Serbia in time of Enver Hoxa?
Two related reasons.
1. In Serbia life was much better than Albania and
2. Albanians in Serbia felt free, and they knew that in Serbia was no discrimination.

And most important, Albanians in Serbia had great personal progress, much more than in Albania, where was Enver Hoxa's dictatorship. There are all facts that is very easy to someone checks.

Luan
15-09-13, 20:18
Only facts. Serbs and Montenegrins in Albania did not have basic human rights. For example find one school in Albania in Serbian. Serbs and Montenegrins had no right even to their names and surnames. They were discriminated as no one in Europe, and albanized.

Compare with Albanians in Serbian autonomous province of Kosovo. Albanians had school and colleges in Albanian. Serbia invested in education of Albanians. Albanians were MPs, members of the government, directors by state enterprises etc. The data about 18 billion dollars invested in Kosovo by Serbia and SFR Yugoslavia is right, and you can check if you do not beleive. Ike is right Serbia was one of the most republic in the world with great respects of human rights. Serbs and Montenegrins in Albania could only dream what they had Albanians in Serbia. So much for human rights in Serbia and Albania.

Luan you know it, and tell honestly, why Albanians from Albania came to live in Serbia in time of Enver Hoxa?
Two related reasons.
1. In Serbia life was much better than Albania and
2. Albanians in Serbia felt free, and they knew that in Serbia was no discrimination.

And most important, Albanians in Serbia had great personal progress, much more than in Albania, where was Enver Hoxa's dictatorship. There are all facts that is very easy to someone checks.
My god, is this what serb government is teaching. I told you, I lived through the serbian control of Kosova, My eyes don't lie, and my parents neither. My Grandfather is 97 years old and still has memories what its was like. You may try to persuade non Albanians with your lies but we Albanian in Kosova will always know the truth. It wont change the stats of Kosova. We are free now.

Luan
15-09-13, 20:28
Speaking of Montenegrins, they too didn't want to be with serbia and left by majority.

Ike
15-09-13, 20:39
My god, is this what serb government is teaching. I told you, I lived through the serbian control of Kosova, My eyes don't lie, and my parents neither. My Grandfather is 97 years old and still has memories what its was like. You may try to persuade non Albanians with your lies but we Albanian in Kosova will always know the truth. It wont change the stats of Kosova. We are free now.

We don't have to try anything. Facts speak for themselves. Where are answers to my questions?

Knovas
15-09-13, 21:13
As a Catalan, I totally respect Kosovo and Montenegro. You'll always have our support.

Greetings.

Garrick
15-09-13, 22:12
Speaking of Montenegrins, they too didn't want to be with serbia and left by majority.

Montenegro was republic in SFR Yugoslavia and in SR Yugoslavia, as Serbia. Montenegro could do what wanted. Montenegro was one of six republics of SFR Yugoslavia. They choose to live with Serbia 1991 in SR Yugoslavia, 2002 country changed name in Serbia and Montenegro and 2006 Montenegro became state. It is all ok. I love Montenegrins, they are wonderful and brave people, and a lot of Serbs have roots in Montenegro (Shumadia and Belgrade, especially). Montenegro there is no topic, but Kosovo, and majority Montenegrins together with the Serbs after June 1999 left Kosovo.

Topic was on Syria and it is complex problem. And a lot of politicians in the West these days, including American President Mr. Obama, compared Syria with Kosovo. Because Kosovo was complex problem too. And for Kosovo applied a quick fix. Quick solution led to ethnic cleansing, today in Kosovo live less than 7% Serbs, Montenegrins, Gorans, Roma and all other peoples who are not Albanians. In Syria is similar, if one side gets all (win-lost situation), there will be a lot of refugees. Syria have different religious and ethnic group as Kosovo had before 1999.

Garrick
15-09-13, 22:22
As a Catalan, I totally respect Kosovo and Montenegro. You'll always have our support.

Greetings.

Respect is commendable. But you should know that it is different situation.

Serbia and Montenegro were two republics of Yugoslavia. It is similar as Catalonia and Valencia.

But Kosovo was part of Serbia, as for example Pyrenees is part of Catalonia. I doubt you would be glad that Pyrenees be independent of Catalonia, this would mean Catalonia to be reduced. Just an example (no offense).

Garrick
15-09-13, 22:41
That was not a joke. Albanians were never discriminated in Serbia. I won't go into other matters since this is thread about Kosovo and you're probably Albanian, so lets stick to that one.

1. I need an explanation how could one minority, that was allegedly treated as Kosovo Albanians claim they were, managed to rise from 500.000 to 1.500.000?

2. Find me a region in which population rose 3x in a 40 years period?


Census 1991 did not exist. These are just some estimates, but situation changed. Only reliable last census before 1999 was in 1981, and of course, 2011, but Serbs in four municipalities of north Kosovo have not been introduced in census.

Knovas
15-09-13, 22:44
In Catalonia we have the Vall d'Aran region, which is culturally different from the rest of Catalonia (they do speak a dialect of Occitan called Aranès). As far as I know, the vast majority of the Catalans would agree if they decide to leave. Of course I prefer they remain with us, but on top of that I'll always respect their will to be.

I understand your points, and trust me I have no particular issue with Serbia. But to force people is never a good solution, no one can stop a nation when it wants to follow a different way. Honestly, that's what I think.

Best.

Sile
15-09-13, 22:46
This is the most ironic joke I have ever heard. All the majority run states discriminate heavily other minorities not only on the ethnic basis but also on political affinities, class, regional language and customs (within the same ethnic group), the list is endless. Same is happening in Serbia as well. Your comments are childish and not in touch with reality, totally brainwashed as if the Serbs are the only angels on earth. Wake up and face the reality - grow up.

except if your moslem, then you rule any country you want, you have your language and your religion get special exceptions

FBS
15-09-13, 22:49
That was not a joke. Albanians were never discriminated in Serbia. I won't go into other matters since this is thread about Kosovo and you're probably Albanian, so lets stick to that one.

1. I need an explanation how could one minority, that was allegedly treated as Kosovo Albanians claim they were, managed to rise from 500.000 to 1.500.000?

2. Find me a region in which population rose 3x in a 40 years period?


6018
What are you, 90? Can't you se the flag, I am Kosovar and I am speaking about Kosovo Albanians and this thread is about Kosovo, not Albania, read more carefully my replies and check the link that I have posted. I am sorry to say but your IQ is not one to be admired.

Garrick
15-09-13, 23:28
In Catalonia we have the Vall d'Aran region, which is culturally different from the rest of Catalonia (they do speak a dialect of Occitan called Aranès). As far as I know, the vast majority of the Catalans would agree if they decide to leave. Of course I prefer they remain with us, but on top of that I'll always respect their will to be.

I understand your points, and trust me I have no particular issue with Serbia. But to force people is never a good solution, no one can stop a nation when it wants to follow a different way. Honestly, that's what I think.

Best.

Problem was complex, because many areas were "leopard skin" with mixed population, and Serbia has invested years and decades a lot of money, and had a lot of companies. Quick solution led to ethnic cleansing. There were 300,000 refugees from Kosovo after June, 1999, accepted by government of Serbia and about 10,000 accepted by government of Montenegro.

I'm convinced that it could be a better way to solve the problem, rather than win-lost type in which one side gets all and another loses everything. I think it should be improved ways of solving complex problems, as Kosovo, Syria, etc.

Garrick
16-09-13, 02:18
Otherwise I hate to dig in the bitter past, but since you are bringing up the issue of Serbs in Albania that are none of my concern, since I am in Kosovo and I was part of Yugoslavia, I brought up the issue of Albanians in Kosovo under the governance of Serbia within Yugoslavia.



After the death of president Tito Yugoslavia descended into problems. Serbian, Croatian and Slovenian leaders were not able to find a deal (now in all three republics many people still love the country, Yugoslavia was a great place to live). At the beginning of the nineties federation began to crumble. Serbia and Montenegro remained in the country which no longer had the name Socialist, retaining the name Yugoslavia. And Kosovo is still part of Serbia. These are all historical facts.

The disintegration of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia led to the economic collapse. The economic factor in all of this is extremely important because the federal funds for Kosovo dried up and Serbia due to problems had not able to invest as before.

The nineties were not easy at venues across the former Yugoslavia. There were many problems. Certainly for Kosovo could find a solution that would satisfy the economic and political needs of all citizens regardless of their ethnic or religious affiliation, and the Republic of Serbia.

For Kosovo is especially important to understand the problem from the economic side. A lot of money Serbia and Yugoslav federation invested over the decades in Kosovo that was one extremely underdeveloped area to create a solid place to live. Extremely high birth rate is contributing to the funds, no matter how big, were still insufficient the Autonomous Province of Kosovo reaches remaining part of Serbia and the Yugoslav federation (Ike noticed how big was the population growth).

Addition the economic, the ethnic issue is certainly an essential part of the problem. Someone on another thread mentioned a religious problem, Serbs and Montenegrins are Christians, Kosovo Albanians are Muslim, but religious element is just one of the elements that contribute to the growing complexity of the problem. It was certainly more elements that are very important for the problem, including the environment. From this short passage one can imagine that the Kosovo problem is very complex.

Ike
16-09-13, 03:20
What are you, 90? Can't you se the flag, I am Kosovar and I am speaking about Kosovo Albanians and this thread is about Kosovo, not Albania, read more carefully my replies and check the link that I have posted. I am sorry to say but your IQ is not one to be admired.

I never mentioned Albania anywhere. Don't know what you're trying to pull off here.
You still haven't answered how the number of Albanians in Kosovo rose magically so quickly in such a terrifying conditions. I've read your link, but I didn't wanted to comment it since it's only pulling you down on this subject. If we take it seriously, it looks like the numbers would be even higher.

FBS
16-09-13, 11:17
For Kosovo is especially important to understand the problem from the economic side. A lot of money Serbia and Yugoslav federation invested over the decades in Kosovo that was one extremely underdeveloped area to create a solid place to live. Extremely high birth rate is contributing to the funds, no matter how big, were still insufficient the Autonomous Province of Kosovo reaches remaining part of Serbia and the Yugoslav federation (Ike noticed how big was the population growth).

Addition the economic, the ethnic issue is certainly an essential part of the problem. Someone on another thread mentioned a religious problem, Serbs and Montenegrins are Christians, Kosovo Albanians are Muslim, but religious element is just one of the elements that contribute to the growing complexity of the problem. It was certainly more elements that are very important for the problem, including the environment. From this short passage one can imagine that the Kosovo problem is very complex.

Kosovo is a closed subject, same as there is no more Yugoslavia, and we are able to take care of ourselves and our minorities. And yes, this is a success story for NATO, US and EU. We will eternally be thankful to them for their willingness to stand up for the human rights. A lot of work lays ahead but we will make it through. There is no looking back anymore. Things are changing, not only in Balkans but in EU as well;Catalonia, Scotland, probably Veneto, and other movements that I do not know of and I wish them all the best of luck in succeeding.

FBS
16-09-13, 11:42
This is what we should be focusing at:

Serbia/Kosovo: Landmark Opportunity for Human Rights (http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/04/23/serbiakosovo-landmark-opportunity-human-rights)
APR 23, 2013
The April 19 agreement between Serbia and Kosovo offers a landmark opportunity to improve human rights protection in both countries.


http://www.hrw.org/europecentral-asia/serbia

We need good news and be happy for the "baby steps" taken on both sides, that is the only way for the better future.

Ike
16-09-13, 16:30
Kosovo is a closed subject, same as there is no more Yugoslavia, and we are able to take care of ourselves and our minorities. And yes, this is a success story for NATO, US and EU. We will eternally be thankful to them for their willingness to stand up for the human rights. A lot of work lays ahead but we will make it through. There is no looking back anymore. Things are changing, not only in Balkans but in EU as well;Catalonia, Scotland, probably Veneto, and other movements that I do not know of and I wish them all the best of luck in succeeding.

What do you mean closed? Are you suggesting that one minority can take away the territory of another country just on the basis of enormous immigration or birth rate?

Your support to the "movements you're not familiar of" indicates your full subjectivity. Why would you support something you know nothing about? Just because their pattern of behavior may help your cause? It looks like you'd be supporting any separatist movement in the world.

Anyway, KiM is not Albanian. There is no logic to relate the administrative zone of KiM which was formed after WW2 with Serbian-Albanian relations. If anything, Albanians in Yugoslavia could have asked independence on the territories with their population. Why would anyone let you pull out the parts of SFRJ that are not inhabited with Albanians. Do you consider that as a democracy?

FBS
16-09-13, 17:00
1. What do you mean closed? Are you suggesting that one minority can take away the territory of another country just on the basis of enormous immigration or birth rate?

2. Your support to the "movements you're not familiar of" indicates your full subjectivity. Why would you support something you know nothing about? Just because their pattern of behavior may help your cause? It looks like you'd be supporting any separatist movement in the world.

3. a)Anyway, KiM is not Albanian. b)There is no logic to relate the administrative zone of KiM which was formed after WW2 with Serbian-Albanian relations. c)If anything, Albanians in Yugoslavia could have asked independence on the territories with their population. d)Why would anyone let you pull out the parts of SFRJ that are not inhabited with Albanians. e)Do you consider that as a democracy?

1. Yes they can, Kosovo is the proof! Considering your logic that is.
2. Yes I will, any rightful and justified non chauvinistic movement for separation. I will always support the self-determination right for the sake of better and independent life without suppression of any kind.
3. a)Kosovo is a state with the majority Albanian and has other minorities as its citizens. b) Well, the borders of Kosovo were set by Yugoslavia with Serbia being a big part of it, so that is your bad. c) We did, but Serbs wanted the whole territory for themselves without Albanians so decided to expel all of Albanians but unfortunately did not work, it came back as a boomerang. d) Same goes for every independent entity/states now created post Yugoslavia such as Macedonia, Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia as well - so this would be opening the Pandoras box. Therefore, you should go to EU and UN and pose this question, why didn't they open the Pandoras box? You should learn more about geopolitical issues. e) I consider it politics/diplomacy on geopolitical scales. Besides, I cannot solve these problems for you, I am not a politician in a high level. Why don't you raise these concerns with your politicians? I am a wrong address for you.

Garrick
16-09-13, 17:45
This is the most ironic joke I have ever heard. All the majority run states discriminate heavily other minorities not only on the ethnic basis but also on political affinities, class, regional language and customs (within the same ethnic group), the list is endless. Same is happening in Serbia as well. Your comments are childish and not in touch with reality, totally brainwashed as if the Serbs are the only angels on earth. Wake up and face the reality - grow up.

Serbs as other nations are not angels, of course. But for Albanians Serbian communists were like Angels. You can see what terrible things communists of Enver Hoxha worked Serbs and Montenegrins in Albania. Did the communists in Serbia revenge? No. Serbian communists were humanists. They honestly believed in the achievement of a socialist society. Serbia has allocated huge funds for development of AP Kosovo, although some other regions of Serbia were underdeveloped. Serbian communist honestly thought that every human being should be given a chance. Their key slogan was “brotherhood and unity”.

Socialism in Serbia and Yugoslavia was different from socialism in Albania, the USSR and the other socialist countries. In Albania, etc. was state socialism. In Serbia and Yugoslavia was self-managing socialism. And in the west there are some similar forms such a self-managing teams and worker’s shareholding. Serbian and Yugoslav model was very interesting and unique.

Certainly minus was that there was no democracy, there was only one party. But away from the dictatorship in other countries (for example government of Enver Hoxha in Albania), in Serbia and Yugoslavia there were a lot of personal freedom. And there was true equality between people regardless of their nationality, religion, etc. And Albanians in such a state of Serbia had much greater progress than the Albanians in Albania. The best proof of this is that the Albanians from Albania came to live in Serbia. Symbolic you’re right, Serbian politicians at the time of self-managing socialism in the Albanian eyes can be described like angels.

Ike
16-09-13, 17:53
@FBS

1. No it can't. Go look international law.

2. Albanians on Kosovo were repressive, chauvinist and lawless in their demands.

3. a) It is not state yet. Don't rush in there.

b) That's stupid reasoning. Everyone's shouting about being repressed in Yugoslavia by communists, but when it comes to the borders, everyone's just fine with them :) Pure hypocrisy.

c) If it was like that, than there wouldn't be 10x more Albanians on Kosovo than what it used to be 100 years ago. And you STILL didn't answer my question about that. Why avoiding....

d)Yes. Opening of that Pandora's box is the only solution to prevent future wars. It's the box US has left.

e) You're the one claiming that no.1. is OK. You're supporting insane US imperialism against Serbs for Albanian gain. Yet you may be aware that it can come around. They will leave you just as soon as you stop serving their interests. A bit of modesty and decency wouldn't hurt you ;)

Garrick
16-09-13, 23:49
Kosovo is a closed subject

You are sure? Is Kosovo the member of United Nation? No.

Someone only can talks about negotiations, it is fact. There are a lot of hard issues

Garrick
17-09-13, 00:07
how the number of Albanians in Kosovo rose magically so quickly in such a terrifying conditions.

After war, from Albania was the wave of immigrants in Serbia (the end of the forties and start fifties). Yugoslav historians have evidence about 30.000 and indications for some 75.000 Albanians. Serbia was better country for life than Albania. I do not go into the reasons why Serbia was so human.

FBS
17-09-13, 13:05
:shocked:
@FBS

1. No it can't. Go look international law.

2. Albanians on Kosovo were repressive, chauvinist and lawless in their demands.

3. a) It is not state yet. Don't rush in there.

b) That's stupid reasoning. Everyone's shouting about being repressed in Yugoslavia by communists, but when it comes to the borders, everyone's just fine with them :) Pure hypocrisy.

c) If it was like that, than there wouldn't be 10x more Albanians on Kosovo than what it used to be 100 years ago. And you STILL didn't answer my question about that. Why avoiding....

d)Yes. Opening of that Pandora's box is the only solution to prevent future wars. It's the box US has left.

e) You're the one claiming that no.1. is OK. You're supporting insane US imperialism against Serbs for Albanian gain. Yet you may be aware that it can come around. They will leave you just as soon as you stop serving their interests. A bit of modesty and decency wouldn't hurt you ;)

Well life's not fair. Who plays the cards cleverly wins. Don't you just hate it?

FBS
17-09-13, 13:52
Serbs as other nations are not angels, of course. But for Albanians Serbian communists were like Angels. You can see what terrible things communists of Enver Hoxha worked Serbs and Montenegrins in Albania. Did the communists in Serbia revenge? No. Serbian communists were humanists. They honestly believed in the achievement of a socialist society. Serbia has allocated huge funds for development of AP Kosovo, although some other regions of Serbia were underdeveloped. Serbian communist honestly thought that every human being should be given a chance. Their key slogan was “brotherhood and unity”.

Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rankovi%C4%87ism

Ranković sought to secure the position of Serbs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs)and Montenegrins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegrins_(ethnic_group)) in Kosovo, they dominated the government, security forces, and industrial employment in Kosovo.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rankovi%C4%87ism#cite_note-Kosovo._2000._Pp._35-9) Ranković as head of Yugoslavia's UDBA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Security_Administration) security forces supported a hardline approach towards Albanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians) in Kosovo who were commonly accused of pursuing seditious activities, including separatism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separatism), and were persecuted due to these allegations of sedition.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rankovi%C4%87ism#cite_note-Kosovo._2000._Pp._35-9) Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) in Kosovo at this time was repressed and both Albanians and Muslim South Slavs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslims_(nationality)) were encouraged to declare themselves to be Turks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_people) and emigrate to Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey).[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rankovi%C4%87ism#cite_note-Kosovo._2000._Pp._35-9)


ALEKSANDAR RANKOVIC--POLITICAL PROFILE OF A YUGOSLAV "STALINIST"
by Slobodan Stankovic http://osaarchivum.org/files/holdings/300/8/3/text/86-3-147.shtml
Rankovic's Stalinist behavior was best illustrated in his dealings with the Albanians in Kosovo, whom he treated in the cruel manner that Stalin did some of the national minorities in the SovietUnion; and his thinking and methods were certainly Stalinist.

Systematic Serbism http://www.eurotopics.net/en/home/presseschau/archiv/magazin/politik-verteilerseite/kosovo-2008-03/kosovo_ueberblick_geschichte/

The years following the abolition of the province autonomy were characterised by systematic "Serbism”. All schools, for example, were required to teach the Serbian curriculum; Kosovo Albanian doctors and nursing staff in public hospitals were fired. Thousands of Kosovo Albanians in other fields suffered the same fate unless they were prepared to declare their loyalty to Serbia in writing. As a result all Serbian institutions were boycotted by the Kosovo Albanians, who began building a parallel underground school and health system (mostly in private homes). Daily police terror caused great insecurity and fear amongst the Kosovo Albanians.

FBS
17-09-13, 14:12
What do you mean closed? Are you suggesting that one minority can take away the territory of another country just on the basis of enormous immigration or birth rate?

Those satanists & devils, how dare they use love/sex instead of guns, tanks, bombs and killing other people. Where is the world getting to?

Ike
17-09-13, 14:58
And you would like to have sex in your neighbour's backyard, and let your children play in his pool.

FBS
17-09-13, 15:27
And you would like to have sex in your neighbour's backyard, and let your children play in his pool.
You have a pool! wow, let's partey:cool-v:...

Beast
17-09-13, 17:08
You can see. According last census performed in Yugoslavia, in Kosovo lived:

Serbs and Montenegrins 15.12%
Bosniacs and Gorans (then writted as Muslims) 3.7%
Roma 2.15%
Turks 0.79%
Croats 0.55%

After only several months 1999, Kosovo became almost ethnically pure. People have become refugees.
Today all minorities in Kosovo about you write are less than 7%. And it is reality.

If in Syria apply the same principle the same can happen. And, you agree, it is not good way.

Are you joking? even before 1999 kosovo was majority Albanian. like 90%.. so there is no way there were 15% Serbs... and you talking about refugees... there were more Albanian refugees during 1999 that escaped Kosovo more than any other group

Beast
17-09-13, 17:18
@FBS

1. No it can't. Go look international law.

2. Albanians on Kosovo were repressive, chauvinist and lawless in their demands.

3. a) It is not state yet. Don't rush in there.

b) That's stupid reasoning. Everyone's shouting about being repressed in Yugoslavia by communists, but when it comes to the borders, everyone's just fine with them :) Pure hypocrisy.

c) If it was like that, than there wouldn't be 10x more Albanians on Kosovo than what it used to be 100 years ago. And you STILL didn't answer my question about that. Why avoiding....

d)Yes. Opening of that Pandora's box is the only solution to prevent future wars. It's the box US has left.

e) You're the one claiming that no.1. is OK. You're supporting insane US imperialism against Serbs for Albanian gain. Yet you may be aware that it can come around. They will leave you just as soon as you stop serving their interests. A bit of modesty and decency wouldn't hurt you ;)

Serving the interest lol... Kosovo war started without caring about weather america helped or not. In Preshevo Albanians fought without any help in budj too. And Jashari family fought without help, the whole village of prekaz, where my uncles are from fought without help.. so what is this bull about ''nato help''.... NATO tried to stop both sides. yes some westerns voulunteered to help Albanians but Russians also help Serbs... Russian nazis helped Serbs, the same neo nazis that stood behind mass killings of children in Chechnya. all of Skenderaj fought without help... where was America when Jashari family members women and children were killed and bodies burned? Same time you had Serbs releasing propaganda videos of this attack pretending only ''some soldiers were killed'' when later footage and news revealed 52 family members were killed... this also what caused NATO to take action. I met a man in Mitrovica who was from donji prekaz with the surname Jashari, and he told me his story how Serbs put a bullet in his 5 year old sons head, he burried him with his own hands. And what about Serbs shooting with snipers at Albanian civilians from the other side of Mitrovica? what about them shooting at Albanian children that were swimming in the lake? these children tried to escape but some of them ended up drowning, a little boy maybe like 7-10 years old.... this is also what caused the burning of orthodox churches in Kosovo by Albanians.. no wonder they were pissed off.

And remember early 19th and 20th century when Serbs were backed up even by austro-hungary, congress of london, and even Ottomans who wanted to stop Albanians from getting independence. I can't mention how many sources I've seen mention Serbs assasinating ALbanian politicians.. you played a dirty game... for example mother theresas father assassinated by Serbs, and many others... and then you talk about things coming around? That is what happened in 1999 because in early 20th century Albanians stood alone and nobody helped Albanian. Serbs were given land by these people (AUSTRO-HUNGARY, BRITS, OTTOMANS) like Kosovo for free, south of Dardania was given to FYROM. ... north Albania (MALESIA) was given to montenegro, and even sandzak was shared just so serbs could have a border with montenegro. even though albanians lived in these land... and what did albanians get? a little land called today 'albania' created by the congress of london. Serbs also betrayed Albanians during WORLD WAR II when Shaban Polluzha helped the partisans against nazis but the Serbs kept harassing Albanians.

Serbs are not so much better either... just look what you did in Srbrenica And Kosovo. and tried to hide it.. and you are good at making propaganda videos.. actually number one in the balkans, I must say.

Garrick
17-09-13, 18:52
Are you joking? even before 1999 kosovo was majority Albanian. like 90%.. so there is no way there were 15% Serbs... and you talking about refugees... there were more Albanian refugees during 1999 that escaped Kosovo more than any other group

You didn't read. Last census in Yugoslavia was 1981 and these data are accurate. After that census was 2011, 12 years after exile of Serbs, Montenegrins, etc. You saw, American Cato Institute estimates about 250,000 refugees (year 2000). After that the number of refugees grew. According Serbian data were about 300,000 refugees in Serbia and according Montenerin data 10,000 refugees in Montenegro. And today in the Kosovo there are over 93% Albanians. When was it in the history? Never.

If you can notice I don't like write about period nineties because there are two diametrically opposed stories. For state of Serbia there were illegal Albanian armed groups. For most of Albanians they were fighters to separate part of territory from Serbia. You can look in Sri Lanka. The same situation. For state of Sri Lanka Tamil fighters were illegal Tamil armed groups. For most of Tamils they were fighters to separate part of territory from Sri Lanka. For some greater powers Tamil fighters were like terrorists. Good for government of Sri Lanka. But the Albanian armed groups were supported. The same situation but different principles.

The real question here is why the Albanians went through armed rebellion? You can see in Serbia Albanians for decades had more rights and the better life than Albanians in Albania, more in the foreign than in homeland country! If the 90's there were any problems they might be resolved in the institutions. Imagine in the world every minority in a country goes into armed rebellion. The world would be chaos. Do you know how many minorities live in the world? Do you really think that all of them are ideally satisfied. Albanians to nineties lived better and had more rights in Serbia, but almost no minority in the world.

And these are all facts. Or you really think that in Albania in the time of Enver Hoxha Albanians had more rights than Albanians in Serbia. If you really thinks it, than for you the facts mean nothing.

Where was the mistake? Quick solution. Such a solution after produces many more problems for which should be much more time and resources to be solved. And this is not long term and sustainable. It is much better to spend more time, review the complex issue from the multiple angles and pay more attention to planning. I have already said, it is necessary to improve the method of solving of complex problems.

FBS
17-09-13, 19:32
The real question here is why the Albanians went through armed rebellion? You can see in Serbia Albanians for decades had more rights and the better life than Albanians in Albania, more in the foreign than in homeland country! If the 90's there were any problems they might be resolved in the institutions. Imagine in the world every minority in a country goes into armed rebellion. The world would be chaos. Do you know how many minorities live in the world? Do you really think that all of them are ideally satisfied. Albanians to nineties lived better and had more rights in Serbia, but almost no minority in the world.
Yeah, there was too much goodness and we could not take it any more. How can someone turn against something as sublime as this (a refresher): Systematic Serbism http://www.eurotopics.net/en/home/pr...ck_geschichte/

The years following the abolition of the province autonomy were characterised by systematic "Serbism”. All schools, for example, were required to teach the Serbian curriculum; Kosovo Albanian doctors and nursing staff in public hospitals were fired. Thousands of Kosovo Albanians in other fields suffered the same fate unless they were prepared to declare their loyalty to Serbia in writing. As a result all Serbian institutions were boycotted by the Kosovo Albanians, who began building a parallel underground school and health system (mostly in private homes). Daily police terror caused great insecurity and fear amongst the Kosovo Albanians.

Ike
17-09-13, 19:48
Serving the interest lol... Kosovo war started without caring about weather america helped or not. In Preshevo Albanians fought without any help in budj too. And Jashari family fought without help, the whole village of prekaz, where my uncles are from fought without help.. so what is this bull about ''nato help''....

The preparations for war in Yugoslavia started right after Tito's death. First demonstrations about independence happened in 1981. At the same time Slovenians and Croatians were preparing for what they did in the nineties. It's no secret.



NATO tried to stop both sides.

NATO bombed Serbia with DU. Tens of thousands of people are about to die. I don't know what's the situation on Kosovo, but since it has been bombed more than any other region it will suffer heavily. No one is spared - Serbs, Albanians, UN, peace-keepers. I'd suggest you all to get the hell out of there for at least 500 years. You can read about it here (http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2013/01/29/serbia-nato-uranium-embrace.html) or use google, there are plenty of materials on that subject.



where was America when Jashari family members women and children were killed and bodies burned? Same time you had Serbs releasing propaganda videos of this attack pretending only ''some soldiers were killed'' when later footage and news revealed 52 family members were killed...

Jashari was a terrorist. He killed people, and state policemen. He didn't want to surrender. He used his family members as a shield while fighting with military. It was clear action, nothing suspicious about it. There are films about it. It's sad his family members died, because he was psychopath.



I met a man in Mitrovica who was from donji prekaz with the surname Jashari, and he told me his story how Serbs put a bullet in his 5 year old sons head, he burried him with his own hands. And what about Serbs shooting with snipers at Albanian civilians from the other side of Mitrovica? what about them shooting at Albanian children that were swimming in the lake? these children tried to escape but some of them ended up drowning, a little boy maybe like 7-10 years old.... this is also what caused the burning of orthodox churches in Kosovo by Albanians.. no wonder they were pissed off.

Lets not start with atrocities which Albanians committed in last 100 years, cause there is not enough space on server for that.



And remember early 19th and 20th century when Serbs were backed up even by austro-hungary, congress of london, and even Ottomans who wanted to stop Albanians from getting independence. I can't mention how many sources I've seen mention Serbs assasinating ALbanian politicians.. you played a dirty game... for example mother theresas father assassinated by Serbs, and many others... and then you talk about things coming around? That is what happened in 1999 because in early 20th century Albanians stood alone and nobody helped Albanian. Serbs were given land by these people (AUSTRO-HUNGARY, BRITS, OTTOMANS) like Kosovo for free, south of Dardania was given to FYROM. ... north Albania (MALESIA) was given to montenegro, and even sandzak was shared just so serbs could have a border with montenegro. even though albanians lived in these land... and what did albanians get? a little land called today 'albania' created by the congress of london. Serbs also betrayed Albanians during WORLD WAR II when Shaban Polluzha helped the partisans against nazis but the Serbs kept harassing Albanians.

Serbs backed up by Austro-Hungary?! That is funny.
And why do you lie about WW2? We all know Albanians were on Hitler's side. They waited the first opportunity to seize the parts of Yugoslavia, and to molest other nationalities.

There's was a very small number of Albanian communists that worked against Hitler and nazists. Fro example Ramiz Sadiku was declared a National hero of Yugoslavia in 1945, but sadly Albanians demolished his monument. Why?



Serbs are not so much better either... just look what you did in Srbrenica And Kosovo. and tried to hide it.. and you are good at making propaganda videos.. actually number one in the balkans, I must say.

What we did, is written in census. While Serbs were holding Kosovo, Albanians in there multiplied three times. Those are the facts. And whenever Albanians get hold of the military power over Kosovo, the number of Serbs gets diminished. Interesting phenomena. Explain it?

You're diverting the subject, trying to involve Bosniaks in this. Why? What's your problem? You don't have enough facts to confront? Since I see Norwegian flag at your profile, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvqHWS_4AuM) is an interesting Norwegian movie about Srebrenica. Come back after you've seen it, and we can continue the conversation about Srebrenica.

Garrick
17-09-13, 19:49
And remember early 19th and 20th century when Serbs were backed up even by austro-hungary, congress of london, and even Ottomans who wanted to stop Albanians from getting independence. I can't mention how many sources I've seen mention Serbs assasinating ALbanian politicians.. you played a dirty game... for example mother theresas father assassinated by Serbs, and many others... and then you talk about things coming around? That is what happened in 1999 because in early 20th century Albanians stood alone and nobody helped Albanian. Serbs were given land by these people (AUSTRO-HUNGARY, BRITS, OTTOMANS) like Kosovo for free, south of Dardania was given to FYROM. ... north Albania (MALESIA) was given to montenegro, and even sandzak was shared just so serbs could have a border with montenegro. even though albanians lived in these land... and what did albanians get? a little land called today 'albania' created by the congress of london. Serbs also betrayed Albanians during WORLD WAR II when Shaban Polluzha helped the partisans against nazis but the Serbs kept harassing Albanians.


These are romantic stories, no facts. Time of romanticism is gone. And nationalism also.

Although the Communists of Serbia and Yugoslavia could be criticized for some things, for this they should be commended: brotherhood and unity. In Serbia and Yugoslavia did not exist the slightest form of discrimination on religion or nation.

But can you say why between 30,000 to 75,000 Albanians from Albania went to Serbia (in fifties), maybe in Albania ruled the hardships and repression.

History had written. Yugoslav and Serbian Communists 1948 said a BIG NO to Stalin. It was very hard situation for Serbia and Yugoslavia. The powerful armed forces of the USSR and its satellites towered over a small but proud Yugoslavia.

However Albanian Communists sided with Stalin. It was time when Yugoslavia and Serbia could be attack with three sided at the same time, with north, with east and with south west (from Albania). Courageous struggle of Yugoslavia was an example of how to defend freedom.

Stalin, USSR and its satellites including Albania, failed. Serbs, Montenegrins and other Yugoslav nations can be proud. Albania was ally large Soviet force.

Someone can notices the differences in mentality. Albanians have liked to be associated with major powers (anyway Stalin USSR, Germany during World Word 2, Ottoman Empire, etc.). Serbs and Montenegrins knew to say NO major powers: Stalin USSR, Germany during World War 2, Otoman Empire etc. This is no romanticism or nationalism, but culture and mentality. Serbs and Montenegrins not rely on greater powers, as Albanians. Serbs and Montenegrins trust in human spirit and creativity.

Ike
17-09-13, 19:58
Yeah, there was too much goodness and we could not take it any more. How can someone turn against something as sublime as this (a refresher): Systematic Serbism http://www.eurotopics.net/en/home/pr...ck_geschichte/

The years following the abolition of the province autonomy were characterised by systematic "Serbism”. All schools, for example, were required to teach the Serbian curriculum; Kosovo Albanian doctors and nursing staff in public hospitals were fired. Thousands of Kosovo Albanians in other fields suffered the same fate unless they were prepared to declare their loyalty to Serbia in writing. As a result all Serbian institutions were boycotted by the Kosovo Albanians, who began building a parallel underground school and health system (mostly in private homes). Daily police terror caused great insecurity and fear amongst the Kosovo Albanians.

Don't turn this around. We both know that Albanians started that. What is so surprising that one country demands that official language and writing system be used in it's institutions? Why did your doctors pretended they know not Serbian language? Can Albanian doctor work in Germany and speak only Albanian? Can he molest German patients by telling them to learn Albanian, and them to come back?!

You purposely molested non-Albanian population on Kosovo, making the living conditions impossible, and in the end you've cause the war. It's your war, you were told to provoke it, backed up by the same countries that provided you Great Albania during WW2. Don't play innocent now.

FBS
17-09-13, 20:47
Don't turn this around. We both know that Albanians started that. What is so surprising that one country demands that official language and writing system be used in it's institutions? Why did your doctors pretended they know not Serbian language? Can Albanian doctor work in Germany and speak only Albanian? Can he molest German patients by telling them to learn Albanian, and them to come back?!

You purposely molested non-Albanian population on Kosovo, making the living conditions impossible, and in the end you've cause the war. It's your war, you were told to provoke it, backed up by the same countries that provided you Great Albania during WW2. Don't play innocent now.
Great, so we won. Nasty little devils, we managed to trick you and the all the Yugoslavia, nc nc nc. Hm :thinking:when I come to think of it, we played the game quite well don't you think? And we managed without having and army, money, media machinery, Milosevic, Arkan, ....wow, we are going to take over the world with this smart! Thank you for all these compliments Ike. I have started to admire myself and all other Kosovar-Albaninas, we are clever, man!:cool-v:

FBS
17-09-13, 20:55
Someone can notices the differences in mentality. Albanians have liked to be associated with major powers (anyway Stalin USSR, Germany during World Word 2, Ottoman Empire, etc.). Serbs and Montenegrins knew to say NO major powers: Stalin USSR, Germany during World War 2, Otoman Empire etc. This is no romanticism or nationalism, but culture and mentality. Serbs and Montenegrins not rely on greater powers, as Albanians. Serbs and Montenegrins trust in human spirit and creativity.
What are you implying?

Marko94
17-09-13, 21:32
Look this video:



In Albania, Serbs was banned all: Serbian names and surnames, Serbian language, religion, culture, the right to education in their own language, basic human rights, etc. From the thirties to nineties Serbs in Albania are almost albanized. You can see in this video that in time king Zogu were discriminatory laws against Serbs. And especially discriminatory laws were in time of rule of Communist Enver Hoxa. Serbs and Montenegrins are prohibited ethnicity and violated human rights.

On the other side Albanians in Serbia and SFR Yugoslavia had all the rights, language, culture, religion, education in Albanian, all. And not only that. Republic of Serbia and Yugoslav federation gave heavily to develop areas which are inhabited by Albanians. As Serbian province, Serbia and SFR Yugoslavia invested in AP Kosovo over 18 billion dollars from 1961 to 1990. In time: 1956-1990 average rate of industrial growth in AP Kosovo was the 6.3%. From 1952 to 1990 GDP in AP Kosovo grew 5.4 times.

Compare, Serbs and Montenegrins in Albania suffered extinction. Albanians in Serbia had big progress. And Albanians from Albania came to live in Serbian province Kosovo because it was a better life and greater rights. Marko94 is objective and thanks for this educational video.
Don't confuse comunism albanian with comunism jugoslavia.
Comunism albanian is like comunism of north korea.
Everything that was in the Yugoslavian communism was buried.
Tito did not bring about "wars" between peoples.
When the killings were hiding this news.
Milosevic did see only the news that made them comfortable.
Milosevic has never been stupid (as they thought the Americans).
He knew that the weak point of the peoples of Eastern Europe is extreme nationalism.
Just see the match Croatia vs Serbia years 90'.
What I mean is that they all did the massacres.
The other ethnic groups (Albanian, Croatian and etc.) made ​​her secretly and small massacres.
The truth about Eastern peoples is that "there has never been a friendship or brotherhood".
The extreme nationalism will divide forever.
we Italians are not nationalists and we are objective.

Marko94
17-09-13, 21:42
That was not a joke. Albanians were never discriminated in Serbia. I won't go into other matters since this is thread about Kosovo and you're probably Albanian, so lets stick to that one.

1. I need an explanation how could one minority, that was allegedly treated as Kosovo Albanians claim they were, managed to rise from 500.000 to 1.500.000?

2. Find me a region in which population rose 3x in a 40 years period?


6018
I have just a question for you.
In the time of this zog and comunism you can't escape from albania.......this number about albanian is fake.
I say to you my origin albanian.
In the 1944 the family of my father was kicked by nazist german from kosovo.
The family of my father decided to take refuge in albania (in a region called mirdita, i do not know if is write right).In 1991, communism ends and my father goes to italy to look for work (remember that from 1920 until 1991 nobody can exit from albania).

Ike
17-09-13, 21:57
Great, so we won. Nasty little devils, we managed to trick you and the all the Yugoslavia, nc nc nc. Hm :thinking:when I come to think of it, we played the game quite well don't you think? And we managed without having and army, money, media machinery, Milosevic, Arkan, ....wow, we are going to take over the world with this smart! Thank you for all these compliments Ike. I have started to admire myself and all other Kosovar-Albaninas, we are clever, man!:cool-v:

Why would you raise yourself to the level of your employers? It's their achievement, not yours.You were just a pawns in someone else's game. And don't forget that - as they have used you against us, they will just as easily push you away, once they don't need you.

Ike
17-09-13, 22:13
@Marko
What are you trying to say? That all censuses were wrong?
Go (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo#History) read for yourself. There are data from medieval Serbia, Turks, Austrians, etc. All is transparent. In 14th century there was almost no Albanians on Kosovo, only 3 settlements. Serb were majority until 17th century. Situation got out of control in period 1961-1981, when number of Albanians on Kosovo doubled. How did it happen? Was it the enormous birth rate, like nowhere in the world, or was it combined with Albanian immigrant, it doesn't really matter. What matters is, that it doesn't give someone right to pester and terrorize other people, especially when they're being nice to you.

Marko94
17-09-13, 22:16
Don't turn this around. We both know that Albanians started that. What is so surprising that one country demands that official language and writing system be used in it's institutions? Why did your doctors pretended they know not Serbian language? Can Albanian doctor work in Germany and speak only Albanian? Can he molest German patients by telling them to learn Albanian, and them to come back?!

You purposely molested non-Albanian population on Kosovo, making the living conditions impossible, and in the end you've cause the war. It's your war, you were told to provoke it, backed up by the same countries that provided you Great Albania during WW2. Don't play innocent now.
The end of yugoslavia there had to be already after ww2.
Do you know why there has not been? Why a communist called tito decided to cover it up.
Whatever was in the time of Tito hid the news.
A Croatian killed a Serb? Tito hid the news.
An Albanian killed a Serb? Tito hid the news.
A Serb killed an Albanian? Tito hid the news.
After the war about indipendence of croatia and slovenia, the great powers (usa, italy, germany and others) have made ​​a deal with Milosevic so that there were no more wars.
If the great powers wanted to divide Yugoslavia could do it too in 1991.

Ike
17-09-13, 22:33
I agree. It should have happened in 1945. but it was not possible. If it was up to Serbs, they'd probably take over the territories where they lived, and leave others part of Yugoslavia aside. What would happen then? Red Army would descent through parts of NDH down to Adriatic, and that was unacceptable to Britain. That's why they backed up Tito all the time, and that's why Yugoslavia was never a part of Warshaw pact.

When Tito died 1980. the plans for dividing Yugoslavia started to become reality. Albanians were the first to claim the parts of Yugoslavia. And it finally happened in 1991. After extensive preparations US and Germany managed to start a war here.

Marko94
17-09-13, 22:43
@Marko
What are you trying to say? That all censuses were wrong?
Go (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo#History) read for yourself. There are data from medieval Serbia, Turks, Austrians, etc. All is transparent. In 14th century there was almost no Albanians on Kosovo, only 3 settlements. Serb were majority until 17th century. Situation got out of control in period 1961-1981, when number of Albanians on Kosovo doubled. How did it happen? Was it the enormous birth rate, like nowhere in the world, or was it combined with Albanian immigrant, it doesn't really matter. What matters is, that it doesn't give someone right to pester and terrorize other people, especially when they're being nice to you.
Anything that concerns immigration of Albanians is well documented.
Since the year 1200 when Charles 1 of naples conquered the coasts of Albania (and part of Montenegro) and imported Albanians (at that time called arbaresh) in southern Italy until 1991 \ 1992 the great migrations.
I would like to ask you a question.
If you come to Italy and i'll show you a census done in an era where everything was fake and controlled by the Mafia you believe it?
the world is manipulated and nobody know the truth.
If you go to albania and you tell him "I do see the census of how many Serbs are there?"
I'll give them, but is a fake census.
I am an objective person, i have no problem saying that "the albanian government is mafia" as i have no problem saying that "the serbian government is mafia".
I do not have problem to say "uck are killer and is mafia".
Because i know the right.
As long as you do take nationalism, you can not have a dialogue.

Garrick
17-09-13, 23:09
Yeah, there was too much goodness and we could not take it any more. How can someone turn against something as sublime as this (a refresher): Systematic Serbism http://www.eurotopics.net/en/home/pr...ck_geschichte/

The years following the abolition of the province autonomy were characterised by systematic "Serbism”. All schools, for example, were required to teach the Serbian curriculum; Kosovo Albanian doctors and nursing staff in public hospitals were fired. Thousands of Kosovo Albanians in other fields suffered the same fate unless they were prepared to declare their loyalty to Serbia in writing. As a result all Serbian institutions were boycotted by the Kosovo Albanians, who began building a parallel underground school and health system (mostly in private homes). Daily police terror caused great insecurity and fear amongst the Kosovo Albanians.

How many there are minorities in the world that were in far worse situation, but they didn't make armed rebellion. According to you Serbs and Montenegrins in Albania, Copts in Egypt, Kurds in Turkey end so on, end so on, should do so. Conditions for many minorities are much more difficult than problems Albanians in Serbia nineties.

I can agree that there were problems. And you can see that I'm not a supporter of president Milosevic. But all the problems, I think those were objective, not the Albanian propaganda, could be resolved, perhaps even relatively quickly, in the institutions of the system. Even, outside of the system passive resistance could have its effects. But no armed rebellion, which absolutely as a way of solving problems is unacceptable.

The world would be chaos if every minority go into armed rebellion and wants to secede from the state. It would be thousand of state in the world and conflicts. Therefore Kosovo is not recognized by the UN. Many countries would have their Kosovo and armed rebellions in the world would be all over the world.

Albanians voting rights were not denied. As soon as the someone has voting right he or she is not in particularly bad situation, for example in Syria people do not have voting rights.

Albanians could vote in elections as citizens of Serbia, large number of Albanian voters in elections meant a large number of Albanian representatives in the Parliament of Serbia. Albanian representatives together with members of Serbian democratic parties could have a majority in Serbian Parliament. And Albanians could be members of Government of Republic of Serbia. Likes as representatives of Turks are in the ruling coalition in Bulgaria, and some of Turks are members of the Bulgarian government. If Albanians 1992 went out in elections for the president of Serbia, possible that Mr. Panic would win Mr. Milosevic.

You can imagine how much it would be easier and better life for all that Albanians acted as responsible citizens. Armed rebellation is wrong and unacceptable approach of solving problems.

Marko94
17-09-13, 23:10
I agree. It should have happened in 1945. but it was not possible. If it was up to Serbs, they'd probably take over the territories where they lived, and leave others part of Yugoslavia aside. What would happen then? Red Army would descent through parts of NDH down to Adriatic, and that was unacceptable to Britain. That's why they backed up Tito all the time, and that's why Yugoslavia was never a part of Warshaw pact.

When Tito died 1980. the plans for dividing Yugoslavia started to become reality. Albanians were the first to claim the parts of Yugoslavia. And it finally happened in 1991. After extensive preparations US and Germany managed to start a war here.
???
I'll tell you how it would end if Yugoslavia did not exist.
1) Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, Bulgaria and fyrom enter in ussr.
2) The Albanians of Kosovo are rebelling because they want independence.
3) The communist government moves albanians in siberia and creates a regional just for them.
Finish it.
The Serbs had much of that luck.
From the ww1, ww2 and the war of yugoslavia you have been kissed by fortune.
Why?
1) Most Christians (Orthodox).
2) You were protected "faithfully" and "continuously" from russia.
If albania have committed your actions, now would not exist.
Why?
1) The majority are muslims.
2) No one defended them.
The serbia exists thanks to russia.
You know why Kosovo and Macedonia was gived to serbia?
Because russia wanted give to you.
In italy the war of yugoslavia is well taught, most of the cold war and the ww1.
I know so many things about war of yugoslavia.

Marko94
17-09-13, 23:19
How many there are minorities in the world that were in far worse situation, but they didn't make armed rebellion. According to you Serbs and Montenegrins in Albania, Copts in Egypt, Kurds in Turkey end so on, end so on, should do so. Conditions for many minorities are much more difficult than problems Albanians in Serbia nineties.

I can agree that there were problems. And you can see that I'm not a supporter of president Milosevic. But all the problems, I think those were objective, not the Albanian propaganda, could be resolved, perhaps even relatively quickly, in the institutions of the system. Even, outside of the system passive resistance could have its effects. But no armed rebellion, which absolutely as a way of solving problems is unacceptable.

The world would be chaos if every minority go into armed rebellion and wants to secede from the state. It would be thousand of state in the world and conflicts. Therefore Kosovo is not recognized by the UN. Many countries would have their Kosovo and armed rebellions in the world would be all over the world.

Albanians voting rights were not denied. As soon as the someone has voting right he or she is not in particularly bad situation, for example in Syria people do not have voting rights.

Albanians could vote in elections as citizens of Serbia, large number of Albanian voters in elections meant a large number of Albanian representatives in the Parliament of Serbia. Albanian representatives together with members of Serbian democratic parties could have a majority in Serbian Parliament. And Albanians could be members of Government of Republic of Serbia. Likes as representatives of Turks are in the ruling coalition in Bulgaria, and some of Turks are members of the Bulgarian government. If Albanians 1992 went out in elections for the president of Serbia, possible that Mr. Panic would win Mr. Milosevic.

You can imagine how much it would be easier and better life for all that Albanians acted as responsible citizens. Armed rebellation is wrong and unacceptable approach of solving problems.
Ok, you have right.
But you wrong in a point.
This territory "called kosovo" whose is it?
Need to wait the answer.
The problem is that when you discover the answer could break another war.

Garrick
17-09-13, 23:43
Don't confuse comunism albanian with comunism jugoslavia.
Comunism albanian is like comunism of north korea.
Everything that was in the Yugoslavian communism was buried.
Tito did not bring about "wars" between peoples.
When the killings were hiding this news.
Milosevic did see only the news that made them comfortable.
Milosevic has never been stupid (as they thought the Americans).
He knew that the weak point of the peoples of Eastern Europe is extreme nationalism.
Just see the match Croatia vs Serbia years 90'.
What I mean is that they all did the massacres.
The other ethnic groups (Albanian, Croatian and etc.) made ​​her secretly and small massacres.
The truth about Eastern peoples is that "there has never been a friendship or brotherhood".
The extreme nationalism will divide forever.
we Italians are not nationalists and we are objective.

I'm not Communist, but Yugoslav communism (correct to say self-managing socialism) had good points. For brotherhood and unity someone can say that it is phrase but it is fact that there was a quite a high level of tolerance among different nations, ant there were high standards the rights of minority. Contrary to communism in Albania which was similar in North Korea.

For East European and Balkans people is characteristic strong nationalism. Although there were nationalists of all colors in Yugoslavia, it were a lot of mixed marriages and began to appear new Yugoslav nation. However since the eighties nationalists of all nations in Yugoslavia began to strengthen again.

But the main story of the late eighties was related to money. Serbian, Croatian and Slovenian elites could not reach agreement on the economy, money and distribution of funds. Everyone wanted to deceive the other. The federal government has been undermined.

Yugoslav sad example is an indication of what is going on complex state when the money runs out. While there is money then love blooms. When problems with money encounter, result is extreme nationalism of all sides.

Garrick
18-09-13, 00:05
Great, so we won. Nasty little devils, we managed to trick you and the all the Yugoslavia, nc nc nc. Hm :thinking:when I come to think of it, we played the game quite well don't you think? And we managed without having and army, money, media machinery, Milosevic, Arkan, ....wow, we are going to take over the world with this smart! Thank you for all these compliments Ike. I have started to admire myself and all other Kosovar-Albaninas, we are clever, man!:cool-v:

You are greatly mistaken, don't get carried away.

In post #62 I explained what Albanians could do. And it could be winning combination for all people, including Albanians.

Ike
18-09-13, 00:16
Anything that concerns immigration of Albanians is well documented.
Since the year 1200 when Charles 1 of naples conquered the coasts of Albania (and part of Montenegro) and imported Albanians (at that time called arbaresh) in southern Italy until 1991 \ 1992 the great migrations.
I would like to ask you a question.
If you come to Italy and i'll show you a census done in an era where everything was fake and controlled by the Mafia you believe it?
the world is manipulated and nobody know the truth.
If you go to albania and you tell him "I do see the census of how many Serbs are there?"
I'll give them, but is a fake census.
I am an objective person, i have no problem saying that "the albanian government is mafia" as i have no problem saying that "the serbian government is mafia".
I do not have problem to say "uck are killer and is mafia".
Because i know the right.
As long as you do take nationalism, you can not have a dialogue.

Yes but when Austrians say something, and Serbs say the same, and Ottomans say the same, and DNA analysis suggests the same, and all historical and written evidence on Kosovo suggest the same, I can't do else but to believe it. If it was just for the census, it could be doubtful, but when so many different sources claim something, we must take it as a fact. Do you have anything against those numbers? I;m always ready to reconsider that position, as long as I hear new data.

p.s. I'm gad you know Yugoslavia, and history. It's very positive thing, at least we can talk about it, unlike with Americans who are totally uninformed.

Yes I agree that Russia was partially on "our side". We share the same language, religion, ancestry and problems with Ottomans. Whenever it was in position Russia helped us, but don't forget that it helped all Balkan peoples, and that it also watched it's own interests. It fu..ed us up with San-Stefano Treaty. It secretly gave Bosnia and Herzegovina to Austro-Hungary, which eventually led to WW1. British and French fuc..ed us up twice, in 1856. when they helped Ottomans, and in 1876. when Russians were about to enter Istanbul.

Big powers play their games, and we are just thrown around. Just like Croatia, Montenegro, Albania close the gap between Italy and Greece and disable Serbia getting out on the Adriatic. Why else do you think Croatia looks like that? It's the same story as with Crimean war.

FBS
18-09-13, 07:26
How many there are minorities in the world that were in far worse situation, but they didn't make armed rebellion. According to you Serbs and Montenegrins in Albania, Copts in Egypt, Kurds in Turkey end so on, end so on, should do so. Conditions for many minorities are much more difficult than problems Albanians in Serbia nineties.

I can agree that there were problems. And you can see that I'm not a supporter of president Milosevic. But all the problems, I think those were objective, not the Albanian propaganda, could be resolved, perhaps even relatively quickly, in the institutions of the system. Even, outside of the system passive resistance could have its effects. But no armed rebellion, which absolutely as a way of solving problems is unacceptable.

The world would be chaos if every minority go into armed rebellion and wants to secede from the state. It would be thousand of state in the world and conflicts. Therefore Kosovo is not recognized by the UN. Many countries would have their Kosovo and armed rebellions in the world would be all over the world.

Albanians voting rights were not denied. As soon as the someone has voting right he or she is not in particularly bad situation, for example in Syria people do not have voting rights.

Albanians could vote in elections as citizens of Serbia, large number of Albanian voters in elections meant a large number of Albanian representatives in the Parliament of Serbia. Albanian representatives together with members of Serbian democratic parties could have a majority in Serbian Parliament. And Albanians could be members of Government of Republic of Serbia. Likes as representatives of Turks are in the ruling coalition in Bulgaria, and some of Turks are members of the Bulgarian government. If Albanians 1992 went out in elections for the president of Serbia, possible that Mr. Panic would win Mr. Milosevic.

You can imagine how much it would be easier and better life for all that Albanians acted as responsible citizens. Armed rebellation is wrong and unacceptable approach of solving problems.
Ahhh, how nice of you being concerned about us. Thank you but no thanks, we can take care of ourselves. We do not need any Serb patronizing, we tried it but it was too painful and deadly. We have found new friends now that do not kill us and let us govern ourselves. And yes, we'd better be with them then with Serbia, I do not hear that Hong Kong regrets for not being part of China for a while. So stop playing this role of a wolf in sheep skin, we know it all too well we have tried it for centuries.

FBS
18-09-13, 07:36
I'm not Communist, but Yugoslav communism (correct to say self-managing socialism) had good points. For brotherhood and unity someone can say that it is phrase but it is fact that there was a quite a high level of tolerance among different nations, ant there were high standards the rights of minority. Contrary to communism in Albania which was similar in North Korea.

For East European and Balkans people is characteristic strong nationalism. Although there were nationalists of all colors in Yugoslavia, it were a lot of mixed marriages and began to appear new Yugoslav nation.
Do I sense nostalgia here? Suddenly a song comes in my head: Gone Daddy gone, love is gone, away,gone away:innocent:....so wake up and face the reality.

FBS
18-09-13, 07:46
Why would you raise yourself to the level of your employers? It's their achievement, not yours.You were just a pawns in someone else's game. And don't forget that - as they have used you against us, they will just as easily push you away, once they don't need you.
Thank you for your concern Ike. You are so nice, but you are forgeting one little something, we the devils used them (USA, EU,NATO, UN) against you, oh and I almost forgott, we made many babies over night.

Marko94
18-09-13, 14:13
I'm not Communist, but Yugoslav communism (correct to say self-managing socialism) had good points. For brotherhood and unity someone can say that it is phrase but it is fact that there was a quite a high level of tolerance among different nations, ant there were high standards the rights of minority. Contrary to communism in Albania which was similar in North Korea.

For East European and Balkans people is characteristic strong nationalism. Although there were nationalists of all colors in Yugoslavia, it were a lot of mixed marriages and began to appear new Yugoslav nation. However since the eighties nationalists of all nations in Yugoslavia began to strengthen again.

But the main story of the late eighties was related to money. Serbian, Croatian and Slovenian elites could not reach agreement on the economy, money and distribution of funds. Everyone wanted to deceive the other. The federal government has been undermined.

Yugoslav sad example is an indication of what is going on complex state when the money runs out. While there is money then love blooms. When problems with money encounter, result is extreme nationalism of all sides.
If it is correct "For brotherhood and unity someone can say that it is phrase but it is fact that there was a quite a high level of tolerance among" now there would have been no war and right now you'd slavs united against the albanians.Your problem is that "you live in a country of second world and you don't know rlly right"
If there was true tolerance among you, now there would be no hate ........ what you called "tolerance" or "slavic unity" are just nice words.
Yugoslavia was a communist, but was very soft.
In communist albania all minorities had no rights and that you are right, but also the albanians had no rights.
In Yugoslavia you could talk about your religion without problems, but in albania nobody can you speak about religion.
Even if you were Catholic, Orthodox or Muslim you could not speak of your religion.
The interviews were made to the Italian grew up in communist albania said that "Communism was terrible, we were not allowed anything, from speaking in italian to try to get out from albania" and "But we were all on the same level, even the slbanian had rights. "

P.S i don't say to you "you are comunist".

Marko94
18-09-13, 15:14
Yes but when Austrians say something, and Serbs say the same, and Ottomans say the same, and DNA analysis suggests the same, and all historical and written evidence on Kosovo suggest the same, I can't do else but to believe it. If it was just for the census, it could be doubtful, but when so many different sources claim something, we must take it as a fact. Do you have anything against those numbers? I;m always ready to reconsider that position, as long as I hear new data.

p.s. I'm gad you know Yugoslavia, and history. It's very positive thing, at least we can talk about it, unlike with Americans who are totally uninformed.

Yes I agree that Russia was partially on "our side". We share the same language, religion, ancestry and problems with Ottomans. Whenever it was in position Russia helped us, but don't forget that it helped all Balkan peoples, and that it also watched it's own interests. It fu..ed us up with San-Stefano Treaty. It secretly gave Bosnia and Herzegovina to Austro-Hungary, which eventually led to WW1. British and French fuc..ed us up twice, in 1856. when they helped Ottomans, and in 1876. when Russians were about to enter Istanbul.

Big powers play their games, and we are just thrown around. Just like Croatia, Montenegro, Albania close the gap between Italy and Greece and disable Serbia getting out on the Adriatic. Why else do you think Croatia looks like that? It's the same story as with Crimean war.
Yea, you have right.
Your source say that "In Croatia there have never been Italian".
Accordin to "ALL THREAD OF EUPEDIA AND ALL SITE OF THIS WORLD" nobody confirmed kosovo are of slavs or slavs stay before of albanians.
And in a post in eupedia are writed "e-v13 stay in europe from paleolitich" or wrong?
If you don't know ottoman hated albanians and greek.
Source austrian don't are correct, because are possible operated.The society Slavic in Austro-Hungarian empire was important and strong.
Is incredible, now "believe in source" but on albania don't believe.
In library of vatican are writet "Skanderbeg (i don't know how is write) was arbaresh" but now is questioned by many people.
Don't is confirmed just by vatican.
I think, when find a collegament with albanian all say "is fake", or when find a collegament with slavs (collegament dream like vinca culture)all to say "is right"!
WTF? LOL.
You can not do only affidamente on DNA, because it is not always correct (i know the e-v13 stay in europe since the paleolithic or i have wrong? and even the greeks have e-v13?).
The DNA and linguistics must be connected.

I want to ask two questions.


1) If the great powers had decided to take Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia and Bosnia as colonies of you who would you have done? Did you go to kill all the royal families? LOL.


2) According to the texts of the Venetian Empire, in venetian albania (venetian albania included the coast of Montenegro and a bit of the center) only the Albanians lived there before 1700. Do you think need give Montenegro to Albania??

Garrick
18-09-13, 19:24
Do I sense nostalgia here? Suddenly a song comes in my head: Gone Daddy gone, love is gone, away,gone away....so wake up and face the reality.

No nostalgia. I’m not old man. Yes, I know that Yugoslav socialist self-managing system was no democratic. And I could list the objections that system by tomorrow morning. But Yugoslav and Serbian communists had good points, for example they didn’t like hardline nationalists all of color. Yes, Yugoslavia is no more, but you can ask people from Triglav to Gevgelia, when they had a better life, in Yugoslavia or now, and when you would see results, maybe you would be surprised with the numbers of responses in favor of Yugoslavia.

Yugoslav and Serbian communists wanted good relations with Albanian communists. But, what’s happened? Albanian communist leaders took the side of Stalin, 1948. From Albania came direct support Albanian cells in Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia to act against federal Yugoslav government and governments of republics. Albania has directly interfered in matters of neighboring country and made rebellion (which is nothing unusual, undermining neighboring state has happened whenever Albania could act). And what Yugoslav and Serbian government could do? Yugoslav and Serbian government had prevented the rebellion. Albanians in Yugoslavia were performed rebellion on behalf of Enver Hoxha and Stalin, and were defeated. Now Albanians say that Tito, Rankovic and other communist cadres had a strong hand. And which government in any country in the world would be did differently.

But Albanians don’t like to say about billions of dollars which Serbian and federal Yugoslavian government invested in areas mostly inhabited of Albanians. There are few examples in the world that regions inhabited by minority receive so much funding. But it is helped progress. Albanians in Serbia and other parts of Yugoslavia lived much much better than Albanians in Albania. And these are facts. And I said, for Albanians Serbian communists were like Angels.

Garrick
18-09-13, 19:34
TI almost forgott, we made many babies over night.

Albanian demographers thought thirty years ago that AP Kosovo in Serbia will have about 2,5 million Albanians, about 800,000 Albanians in Macedonia (former Yugoslav republic), and about 4 millions in Albania. They looked the birth rate and multiplied.

You can see the data:
AP Kosovo 1981: 1,227,736 (77.4%) Albanians; 2011: 1,616,869 (93%) Albanians; 2011 religion of total Kosovo population: 95.60% Muslims, 3.69% Christians
Republic of Macedonia 1981: 377,726 (19.8%) Albanians; 2002: 509,083 (25.2%) Albanians
Albania 1989: 3,111,601 (98.0%) Albanians, 2011: 2,312,356 (82.6%) Albanians

Today in Balkans there are less Albanians (4,438,308) than 2-3 decades before (4,717,063). I didn’t count for Montenegro but it would not much changed calculation.

Why did Albanian demographers make huge mistake? Yes Albanians still have more children than other people in Balkans (but differences are less than before). The point is economic migration to other countries (west Europe, America, Asia…). And for Kosovo numbers are probably less due to participation the diaspora in census (but it doesn’t matter, I included the official data). Today Albanians, especially young Albanians are in big numbers out of Balkans. Since the economy sank.

Irish time wrote that youth unemployment in Kosovo these days is 73 per cent:
http://www.presseurop.eu/en/content/article/1777921-kosovo-s-demographic-time-bomb

In time of SFR Yugoslavia and SR Serbia it was much much better, Albanians were much less migrant workers. But it was the time when Yugoslav and Serbian funds were extraordinary generous. Today these funds are gone. And companies that Serbia widely invested and opened in area with majority Albanian population, and which were profitable and big backbone of development, today are mostly extinguished.

Ike
18-09-13, 19:35
Thank you for your concern Ike. You are so nice, but you are forgeting one little something, we the devils used them (USA, EU,NATO, UN) against you, oh and I almost forgott, we made many babies over night.

LoL. You and I are we. And we can never be them :)

Garrick
18-09-13, 20:30
If it is correct "For brotherhood and unity someone can say that it is phrase but it is fact that there was a quite a high level of tolerance among" now there would have been no war and right now you'd slavs united against the albanians.Your problem is that "you live in a country of second world and you don't know rlly right"
If there was true tolerance among you, now there would be no hate ........ what you called "tolerance" or "slavic unity" are just nice words.
Yugoslavia was a communist, but was very soft."


Yes, I agree with you. You know for the absurd, senseless and strong hatred between Croats and Serbs, whose DNA analysis showed that they are very very similar and practically speaking the same language. Of course, there are many reasons for it, and they are partly due to external influences and there are reasons of religion. Communists congratulations, they were significantly reduced hatred and raised tolerance threshold. There were many mixed marriages and children from these marriages were conducted as Yugoslavs. At one point it seemed that instead of the smaller nations communists created great Yugoslav nation since the number of Yugoslavs significantly increased. Someone in Europe could continue acting to increase the level of tolerance between Serbs and Croats, not necessarily brotherhood and unity, but at least mutual respect. Today in this regard is a bad situation, because hatred strong.

As for the Bosniacs, problems are actually the same complex. Islam puts faith in front of the nation, the first someone is a Muslim, the Islamic Umma community is a community of Muslims, of whatever nation or race or what language they spoke. Muslim Bosnia are closer for example Muslim from Morocco or Indonesia, but a neighbor who is a Serb or a Croat. Islamic Declaration by Alija Izetbegovic meant promoted the establishment of an Islamic order in Bosnia. All non-Muslims in Bosnia, Serbs and Croats, they would became citizens second order in Muslim State. During the socialism communist brotherhood and unity contributed to good relations between all the peoples of Bosnia (for example Alija Izetbegovic was in prison for enemy propaganda). Bosnia was perhaps the greater success brotherhood and unity policy in communist period.

Yet the key are good relations between Croats and Serbs. But here it is no topic and I will not far about it. Naturally, the Albanians are not in group Yugoslav nations, they did not have republic, they were a minority who lived in Yugoslavia, respectively in Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia. And DNA analysis showed that the Geg Albanians are different from all the nations of the former Yugoslavia and in general of all the peoples of the Balkans.

FBS
18-09-13, 21:54
Albanian demographers thought thirty years ago that AP Kosovo in Serbia will have about 2,5 million Albanians, about 800,000 Albanians in Macedonia (former Yugoslav republic), and about 4 millions in Albania. They looked the birth rate and multiplied.

You can see the data:
AP Kosovo 1981: 1,227,736 (77.4%) Albanians; 2011: 1,616,869 (93%) Albanians; 2011 religion of total Kosovo population: 95.60% Muslims, 3.69% Christians
Republic of Macedonia 1981: 377,726 (19.8%) Albanians; 2002: 509,083 (25.2%) Albanians
Albania 1989: 3,111,601 (98.0%) Albanians, 2011: 2,312,356 (82.6%) Albanians

Today in Balkans there are less Albanians (4,438,308) than 2-3 decades before (4,717,063). I didn’t count for Montenegro but it would not much changed calculation.

Why did Albanian demographers make huge mistake? Yes Albanians still have more children than other people in Balkans (but differences are less than before). The point is economic migration to other countries (west Europe, America, Asia…). And for Kosovo numbers are probably less due to participation the diaspora in census (but it doesn’t matter, I included the official data). Today Albanians, especially young Albanians are in big numbers out of Balkans. Since the economy sank.

Irish time wrote that youth unemployment in Kosovo these days is 73 per cent:
http://www.presseurop.eu/en/content/article/1777921-kosovo-s-demographic-time-bomb

In time of SFR Yugoslavia and SR Serbia it was much much better, Albanians were much less migrant workers. But it was the time when Yugoslav and Serbian funds were extraordinary generous. Today these funds are gone. And companies that Serbia widely invested and opened in area with majority Albanian population, and which were profitable and big backbone of development, today are mostly extinguished.
And your point is?

FBS
18-09-13, 22:04
Kosovo thanks all the countries that have recognized its statehood http://www.kosovothanksyou.com/. Thank you all.

FBS
18-09-13, 22:10
There are Serbs who realize the reality and accept the facts, so there is hope:

I am so happy & proud to see independent & free KOSOVA!!! You have my full support!!! Best wishes & regards to all of you!

Dragan, Belgrade, Serbia, May 5, 2009
Copied from this: http://www.kosovothanksyou.com/messages/

Ike
18-09-13, 22:20
Yea, you have right.
1. Your source say that "In Croatia there have never been Italian".

2. Accordin to "ALL THREAD OF EUPEDIA AND ALL SITE OF THIS WORLD" nobody confirmed kosovo are of slavs or slavs stay before of albanians.
And in a post in eupedia are writed "e-v13 stay in europe from paleolitich" or wrong?

3. If you don't know ottoman hated albanians and greek.

4. Source austrian don't are correct, because are possible operated.The society Slavic in Austro-Hungarian empire was important and strong.
Is incredible, now "believe in source" but on albania don't believe.

5.In library of vatican are writet "Skanderbeg (i don't know how is write) was arbaresh" but now is questioned by many people.
Don't is confirmed just by vatican.
I think, when find a collegament with albanian all say "is fake", or when find a collegament with slavs (collegament dream like vinca culture)all to say "is right"!
WTF? LOL.

6. You can not do only affidamente on DNA, because it is not always correct (i know the e-v13 stay in europe since the paleolithic or i have wrong? and even the greeks have e-v13?).
The DNA and linguistics must be connected.

I want to ask two questions.


1) If the great powers had decided to take Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia and Bosnia as colonies of you who would you have done? Did you go to kill all the royal families? LOL.


2) According to the texts of the Venetian Empire, in venetian albania (venetian albania included the coast of Montenegro and a bit of the center) only the Albanians lived there before 1700. Do you think need give Montenegro to Albania??

1. It depends what you have read. Todays country of Croatia consists of Dalmatia, Croatia and Slavonia. You could have easily read that there was no Italians in that Croatia (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Map_of_the_Kingdom_of_Croatia-Slavonia_(1885).png), while they may have been in Dalmatia (which wasn't mentioned).

It is also questionable what is Croatia and who are Italians. If you consider Croatia as a state, it never existed before 1991 (disregarding Hitler's NDH) so there couldn't be any Italians throughout the history in Croatia, because there was no state of Croatia. So, you have to be very careful about details when you read. There are lot of malicious writers :)

2. It doesn't matter who was there first in Paleolithic. DNA analysis say what they say about E-V13 on Kosovo.
FBS himself said (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27529-Kosovo-Albanians-Haplogroups?p=411084&viewfull=1#post411084) that:"It means that the Albanian and the Kosovan populations expanded quite recently from a much smaller source population." It even concurs with everything censuses say. E-V13 population is uniformly spread across Southern-Eastern Europe, but they have just one peak on Kosovo. It is yet to be explained. They even may have nothing to do with Albanians. That's a real possibility. It could have happened that Balkan gypsies of Hg H started talking Albanian 400 years ago. If they populated fast, you'd have 60 % of Albanian speakers being of H origin now. Would that mean that Albanians are originally Indians? Of course not.

3. I know. I think that hatred between Albanians and other nations started because of the religion. People in Balkans just dislike Muslims, because of experience with Ottomans.

4. There are disagreements about numbers, but tendencies of numbers are clear. Well, Albanians could say that all other census were fraud, but I give it a low probability, especially when Kosovo is concerned. I don't see the reason why Ottomans and Austro-Hungary would lie about number of Albanians when it's clear that they both felt greater animosity towards Serbs, which always stood on their paths of imperial expanision.

It is questionable what Albanians felt about themselves at that times. Some Serbian sources from times of our uprising, mention that there have been made attempts to inspire Balkan Albanians to revolt, but that they were too primitive, not interested in politics, and having no clear idea of national identity. I wonder what other sources say about this. Italians could know something about that subject.

South of Yugoslavia was almost without exception a very regressive and conservative, and we even had problems with that in communist Yugoslavia. Most developed regions like Slovenia and northern Croatia, always objected because so much state money was going for Macedonia, Kosovo and Montenegro.

5. It's the same question as with Alexander the Great. He was a great leader, and everyone would like him to be "theirs". Well it can't be what anyone says, but what DNA says. I personally think he was both Albanian and Serbian, but it wouldn't surprise me if he of was Montenegrin, Greek, Italian or Moroccan descent. Everything is possible.

6. Yes, I agree. DNA research shows undoubtable results, but interpretations may differ. All theories must be supported with archaeological and other research. No final statements before that.

1) Did I understand correctly? If all that territories were given to Serbia now?

2) http://albania.terkepek.net/albania-terkep.jpg
Well, there is a natural border. You can see green part of Albania near the sea, and that's where real we have Hg J majority. You see green Kosovo upwards, and that's where we have Hg E majority. We see on the west part of Kosovo mountains rising up to more than 2,5 km and that's where we have Hg I majority.
I could believe that there was J majority on the Adriatic shore,around Skadar lake, but you'll have to take it wuth Montenegrings (and I guess they will not be very nice). Montenegrins are almost insane about their heredity (almost like Jews) and they keep their records for several hundreds years back at least. Anyway DNA analysis of the cemeteries can be conducted. It's easy to find corpses from 17th century, so answering that will not be a big deal.

You would also have to reconcile that theory with Serbian version (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zidanje_Skadra), and (for Kosovo) to explain why are there so many Serbian churches, monasteries, Cyrillic scripts, and so much referral to Kosovo in Serbian culture.

Ike
18-09-13, 22:25
@FBS
Chill out dude, this is not a thread for political marketing, or for raising your self-esteem. If you want to vaunt over the fact that KiM is semi-independent go somewhere else. If you want to convince yourself that KiM is independent, by saying it many times in public, go somewhere else. If you have nothing constructive to say, go somewhere else.

FBS
18-09-13, 23:07
From ‘Nacertanija’ of Garašanin were transmitted the ideas for multiple falsifications of Serbian historiography between 70-80-s of nineteenth century on the land of the Albanians, such as Kosova, baptised by the name ‘Old Serbia' (Stara Srbija).23
This devised term was not mentioned at all in European scientific literature in the past centuries. This term was not noted on geographic maps of south-eastern Europe of 15th-18th centuries either, such as those of Rozeli, Gastald, Mekatore, Kantel, Celebija, Jansen, etc. The term ‘Old Serbia' is not found in the big historical and geographic dictionary either, published in 1884 in Istanbul.24 This indicates that the Serbs had not been able to spread this devised term, invented by Garašanin, until that time (nineteenth century).

FBS
18-09-13, 23:08
The national ideology and Serbian state policy coming out of ‘Nacertanija’ of Garašanin had the intention to occupy else's territories, to denationalise, assimilate and expatriate the other peoples, and the Serbian expansion, colonisation and creation of a greater Serbia were foreseen instead.

FBS
18-09-13, 23:15
The author adds further that the supreme commander of the Serbian military had in his mind to clean Serbia of the other nations, in order to escape the possibility of forming a state of many peoples, such as was the case with Russia, where Caucasus was formed of many peoples. And the president of Serbian government, M. Pirocanac, wrote, “I am very much afraid of the presence of the Albanians in these regions. I base this fear on their centuries-long experience.” He continued with his conclusion that “if we left them here, they would cause us trouble”.51




The Greater Serbian strategy inspired by the doctrinated pan-Slavism of ‘Nacertanija' comprises the danger of annexation and assimilation of their neighbours, and the Albanians in particular.
The idea of ethnic cleansing, as it is seen in the declarations of Serbian higher officials of the time, was a permanent obsession of fear from the multiplication of the Albanians and the high degree of their resistance since 120 years ago. The vacant space that the Albanians left in South Serbia was populated in a systematic way by Serbian inhabitants, who were settled by the Serbian regime during the period 1878-1889 as colonists. People from different places, such as Pirot, Niš, Montenegro, Novi-Pazar, Kosova, Raska, etc., went there and got settled.52 As it can be seen, ethnic cleansing, as a method of forceful changing of the population structure, for the first time in the Balkans and Europe, was accomplished by Serbia, to the detriment of ethnic Albanians, still in nineteenth century.

FBS
18-09-13, 23:17
Source http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/kosovo/chap1.htm

And unfortunately history repeated itself many times. Serb regime tried several times during the history to expel Albanians in order to change the national structure and claim the territories for themselves.

FBS
18-09-13, 23:23
It is questionable what Albanians felt about themselves at that times. Some Serbian sources from times of our uprising, mention that there have been made attempts to inspire Balkan Albanians to revolt, but that they were too primitive, not interested in politics, and having no clear idea of national identity. I wonder what other sources say about this. Italians could know something about that subject.


This is a racist statement.

Garrick
19-09-13, 01:50
From ‘Nacertanija’ of Garašanin were transmitted the ideas for multiple falsifications of Serbian historiography between 70-80-s of nineteenth century on the land of the Albanians, such as Kosova, baptised by the name ‘Old Serbia' (Stara Srbija).23
This devised term was not mentioned at all in European scientific literature in the past centuries. This term was not noted on geographic maps of south-eastern Europe of 15th-18th centuries either, such as those of Rozeli, Gastald, Mekatore, Kantel, Celebija, Jansen, etc. The term ‘Old Serbia' is not found in the big historical and geographic dictionary either, published in 1884 in Istanbul.24 This indicates that the Serbs had not been able to spread this devised term, invented by Garašanin, until that time (nineteenth century).

You write about man of 19 century and in the way to spread propaganda. But Albanians have today’s active projects.

Albanian Koco Danaj, Director Center of Political and Social Forecast in Tirana (capital of Albania) and adviser former Albanian prime ministers, launched “Natural Albania”, it is a Greater Albania which is imagine to include the parts of Montenegro, Serbia, Macedonia and Greece. Natural Albania is and political party in Albania created by Mr. Danaj.

http://danajplatform.blogspot.com/

This is the map that imaginary state:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-_HsXV75bq9A/TXk0UqOUAvI/AAAAAAAAAPY/vMiEnXk98mM/s640/55.jpg

On this map, there are areas in Serbia, Montenegro and Greece, where Albanians do not live (no one!).

This is areas where live Albanians today (in green color):

http://mondediplo.com/maps/IMG/jpg/albania.jpg

Danaj launched petition for collect one million of signatures for Natural (Greater) Albania.

You can know what about petition and this “project” think peoples in mentioned countries, for example in Montenegro:

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/tensions-high-in-montenegro-over-greater-albania-petition

I don’t want write about active claims from Albania to the territory of four states. But due to your messages this is necessary to see.

Arben
19-09-13, 04:50
I doubt Albania would try any ethnic cleansing as certain nations tried in the past. Maybe from a political standpoint yes ei. (OFA) Ohrid Framework Agreement, that have a basis in FYRO-Macedonia because the population is around 25% ethnic Albanian give or take, there is speculation that the numbers are much higher. As to what that entails isnt a renegade fight that draws new lines but a politic intervention on a justification that the Ohrid Framework Agreement, that was implemented in 2002 I believe, has not been 'fully' implemented.

FBS
19-09-13, 10:24
You write about man of 19 century and in the way to spread propaganda. But Albanians have today’s active projects.

Albanian Koco Danaj, Director Center of Political and Social Forecast in Tirana (capital of Albania) and adviser former Albanian prime ministers, launched “Natural Albania”, it is a Greater Albania which is imagine to include the parts of Montenegro, Serbia, Macedonia and Greece. Natural Albania is and political party in Albania created by Mr. Danaj.

http://danajplatform.blogspot.com/

This is the map that imaginary state:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-_HsXV75bq9A/TXk0UqOUAvI/AAAAAAAAAPY/vMiEnXk98mM/s640/55.jpg

On this map, there are areas in Serbia, Montenegro and Greece, where Albanians do not live (no one!).

This is areas where live Albanians today (in green color):

http://mondediplo.com/maps/IMG/jpg/albania.jpg

Danaj launched petition for collect one million of signatures for Natural (Greater) Albania.

You can know what about petition and this “project” think peoples in mentioned countries, for example in Montenegro:

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/tensions-high-in-montenegro-over-greater-albania-petition

I don’t want write about active claims from Albania to the territory of four states. But due to your messages this is necessary to see.
I was not writing, I was quoting and sticking to the discussion about Kosovo while documenting the reasons why Kosovo will never be a part of Serbia again. We will only meet in Europe, if it ever happens.You are mixing Albania in this thread each time you are faced with the facts that prove your claims wrong about the "goodness" of Serbian regime and "brotherhood" in Yugoslavia. If you want to discuss Albania you should start another thread.

FBS
19-09-13, 10:31
@FBS
Chill out dude, this is not a thread for political marketing, or for raising your self-esteem. If you want to vaunt over the fact that KiM is semi-independent go somewhere else. If you want to convince yourself that KiM is independent, by saying it many times in public, go somewhere else. If you have nothing constructive to say, go somewhere else.
Well I guess you do not like it when reality slaps your face. Reality bites, whoever argues with reality will loose.

FBS
19-09-13, 11:07
Another legacy of the Serb righteousness, brotherhood and respect for other non-Serbs:

According to censuses carried out in 1921 and 1931, more than half a million Germans lived in Yugoslavia - 340,000 of them in the northern Serbian province. Known as Volkdeutschers, they settled there in the 18th century following the Turks withdrawal from southern Hungary.
They had become the third largest ethnic community after the Serbs and Hungarians and a leading economic force between the two world wars.
But after the Second World War, retaliatory measures decimated the population. The Danube association says around 80,000 members of the community lost their lives - mainly women, children and the elderly - in concentration camps in the region. According to a 1991 census, just over 5000 Germans remain in Serbia.
Their confiscated property was mainly distributed to Serbs who fled to Vojvodina from Croatia, Bosnia and Montenegro during the war.

source:http://iwpr.net/report-news/serbia-expelled-germans-demand-compensation

This is the way the Serbs treated all non Serbs, no matter who they are and especially those who were seen as a threat due to their high (percentage) presence in Serbia, since this would jeopardize the chances of Serbs being the majority in their own republic. So, it wasn't only Albanians of south Serbia and Kosovo who suffered. This is one of the reasons why Kosovo Albanians first (in 1981) required to become a republic within then Yugoslavia. We had an extensive autonomy since 1974, a status which was only lacking the name republic since we had the right for vote in the federal level, an autonomy that Milosevic abolished both in Vojvodina and Kosovo in 1992, and brought tanks against bare handed civilians. The right for language, jobs and the right for living a decent life was abolished overnight. A harsh apartheid regime was installed. So when you push people against the wall of course they will fight back. qoute:

'Policy of apartheid'

Bernard Kouchner, the UN's special envoy to Kosovo, says in the report's introduction that there had been a systematic policy of apartheid against Kosovo Albanians for at least a decade, but this was no longer the case.

December 23, 1996
The Milosevic regime fired them, and most Albanians employed in government and industry. Albanian schools are now outlawed. According to a new report by Human Rights Watch, police detain or beat up dozens of Albanians every day. Security forces have killed 21 Albanians in the last two years. Ethnic Serbs, especially war refugees, are encouraged to go to Kosovo and take jobs from Albanians. Nearly 350,000 Albanians have emigrated. http://www.nytimes.com/1996/12/23/opinion/serbia-s-apartheid-victims.html

And do you really think (Ike & Garrick) that people would still want to live under such oppression?!

Ike
19-09-13, 17:32
From ‘Nacertanija’ of Garašanin were transmitted the ideas for multiple falsifications of Serbian historiography between 70-80-s of nineteenth century on the land of the Albanians, such as Kosova, baptised by the name ‘Old Serbia' (Stara Srbija).23
This devised term was not mentioned at all in European scientific literature in the past centuries. This term was not noted on geographic maps of south-eastern Europe of 15th-18th centuries either, such as those of Rozeli, Gastald, Mekatore, Kantel, Celebija, Jansen, etc. The term ‘Old Serbia' is not found in the big historical and geographic dictionary either, published in 1884 in Istanbul.24 This indicates that the Serbs had not been able to spread this devised term, invented by Garašanin, until that time (nineteenth century).


The national ideology and Serbian state policy coming out of ‘Nacertanija’ of Garašanin had the intention to occupy else's territories, to denationalise, assimilate and expatriate the other peoples, and the Serbian expansion, colonisation and creation of a greater Serbia were foreseen instead.

I guess you're right. There was no Serbs on Kosovo ever. Only small group of up to 1000.

So where are the maps from Garasanin? Where does he about Kosovo anyway? Have you even read Nacertanije from Garasanin? Where does he talk about occupation, colonization or war?


The author adds further that the supreme commander of the Serbian military had in his mind to clean Serbia of the other nations, in order to escape the possibility of forming a state of many peoples, such as was the case with Russia, where Caucasus was formed of many peoples. And the president of Serbian government, M. Pirocanac, wrote, “I am very much afraid of the presence of the Albanians in these regions. I base this fear on their centuries-long experience.” He continued with his conclusion that “if we left them here, they would cause us trouble”.51

So it seems he was right. You did cause trouble. Now it's up to us Serbs to let us wonder why didn't we let him do that....


The Greater Serbian strategy inspired by the doctrinated pan-Slavism of ‘Nacertanija' comprises the danger of annexation and assimilation of their neighbours, and the Albanians in particular.
The idea of ethnic cleansing, as it is seen in the declarations of Serbian higher officials of the time, was a permanent obsession of fear from the multiplication of the Albanians and the high degree of their resistance since 120 years ago. The vacant space that the Albanians left in South Serbia was populated in a systematic way by Serbian inhabitants, who were settled by the Serbian regime during the period 1878-1889 as colonists. People from different places, such as Pirot, Niš, Montenegro, Novi-Pazar, Kosova, Raska, etc., went there and got settled.52 As it can be seen, ethnic cleansing, as a method of forceful changing of the population structure, for the first time in the Balkans and Europe, was accomplished by Serbia, to the detriment of ethnic Albanians, still in nineteenth century.

You said vacant space? Why was it vacant? Were they forced to go out? Or they just liked Muslim occupation better? How many of them left?


Well I guess you do not like it when reality slaps your face. Reality bites, whoever argues with reality will loose.

Yes, current reality is that you can molest, kill and terrorize people. It's really lame. I hope it won't ever happen to you.


I was not writing, I was quoting and sticking to the discussion about Kosovo while documenting the reasons why Kosovo will never be a part of Serbia again. We will only meet in Europe, if it ever happens.You are mixing Albania in this thread each time you are faced with the facts that prove your claims wrong about the "goodness" of Serbian regime and "brotherhood" in Yugoslavia. If you want to discuss Albania you should start another thread.

So, you agree with me that Kosovars and Albanians are of different national and ethinc identity, that they should not be mixed with each other, and that same language is just a coincidence?


Another legacy of the Serb righteousness, brotherhood and respect for other non-Serbs:

According to censuses carried out in 1921 and 1931, more than half a million Germans lived in Yugoslavia - 340,000 of them in the northern Serbian province...
What do Germans have to do with Kosovo?

Marko94
19-09-13, 18:57
In time of SFR Yugoslavia and SR Serbia it was much much better, Albanians were much less migrant workers. But it was the time when Yugoslav and Serbian funds were extraordinary generous. Today these funds are gone. And companies that Serbia widely invested and opened in area with majority Albanian population, and which were profitable and big backbone of development, today are mostly extinguished.
You kidding me?
How you say "migration"?
You don't understand from 1920 to 1991 albanian can't escape?
And before of 1920 albanian just go in Italy or Austria for find work.
i have a question for you.
If albanian are emigrated to Serbia, in Albania would be documented.In Albania they have the exact census of migration (number and where).
And in these sheets is not written anywhere "serbia".
I can'tt understand why you say serbia? What did you have the serbia to attract so much attention of the Albanians?
In Serbia there was never any "emigration" by the Albanians, because if there was it would be documented for a long time.
Your documents are "false" and "manipulated".
Do you understand or not?
Try to be objective.

Garrick
19-09-13, 18:58
I was not writing, I was quoting and sticking to the discussion about Kosovo while documenting the reasons why Kosovo will never be a part of Serbia again. We will only meet in Europe, if it ever happens.You are mixing Albania in this thread each time you are faced with the facts that prove your claims wrong about the "goodness" of Serbian regime and "brotherhood" in Yugoslavia. If you want to discuss Albania you should start another thread.

It is not quite possible because Albania undermined Serbia often when it could do harm and it had aspirations on Serbian, Montenegrin, Macedonian and Greek territories. For example in World War II Albania took the side of the Axis powers (Mussolini’s Italy and Hitler’s Germany). Axis powers created Greater Albania which has spread to areas of Yugoslavia (today’s Montenegro, Serbia and Macedonia). In the occupied territories was major terror against the Serbs and Montenegrins. In this terror were died 8.000 Serbs and Montenegrins. About 100.000 Serbs and Montenegrins had to flee from occupied territories to significant territorial reduced Serbia which was directly under occupation of Third Reich. You can see the map of Greater Albania and surrounding in the time WWII.

Greater Albania and surrounding states created by axis powers in World War II:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Map_of_Albania_during_WWII.png

FBS
19-09-13, 19:17
It is not quite possible because Albania undermined Serbia often when it could do harm and it had aspirations on Serbian, Montenegrin, Macedonian and Greek territories. For example in World War II Albania took the side of the Axis powers (Mussolini’s Italy and Hitler’s Germany). Axis powers created Greater Albania which has spread to areas of Yugoslavia (today’s Montenegro, Serbia and Macedonia). In the occupied territories was major terror against the Serbs and Montenegrins. In this terror were died 8.000 Serbs and Montenegrins. About 100.000 Serbs and Montenegrins had to flee from occupied territories to significant territorial reduced Serbia which was directly under occupation of Third Reich. You can see the map of Greater Albania and surrounding in the time WWII.

Greater Albania and surrounding states created by axis powers in World War II:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Map_of_Albania_during_WWII.png
What does that have to do anything with Kosovo?

Marko94
19-09-13, 19:27
Yes, I agree with you. You know for the absurd, senseless and strong hatred between Croats and Serbs, whose DNA analysis showed that they are very very similar and practically speaking the same language. Of course, there are many reasons for it, and they are partly due to external influences and there are reasons of religion. Communists congratulations, they were significantly reduced hatred and raised tolerance threshold. There were many mixed marriages and children from these marriages were conducted as Yugoslavs. At one point it seemed that instead of the smaller nations communists created great Yugoslav nation since the number of Yugoslavs significantly increased. Someone in Europe could continue acting to increase the level of tolerance between Serbs and Croats, not necessarily brotherhood and unity, but at least mutual respect. Today in this regard is a bad situation, because hatred strong.
The problem of slavs of south europe is that "they have put too many stories in your head".
Why?
Because they will spread the Slav nationalism (just look at the Balkan wars), you have "spoiled" (giving territories such as Kosovo and Macedonia) and everything.
You speak of communism as if it was a beautiful thing.
But it is not.




As for the Bosniacs, problems are actually the same complex. Islam puts faith in front of the nation, the first someone is a Muslim, the Islamic Umma community is a community of Muslims, of whatever nation or race or what language they spoke. Muslim Bosnia are closer for example Muslim from Morocco or Indonesia, but a neighbor who is a Serb or a Croat. Islamic Declaration by Alija Izetbegovic meant promoted the establishment of an Islamic order in Bosnia. All non-Muslims in Bosnia, Serbs and Croats, they would became citizens second order in Muslim State. During the socialism communist brotherhood and unity contributed to good relations between all the peoples of Bosnia (for example Alija Izetbegovic was in prison for enemy propaganda). Bosnia was perhaps the greater success brotherhood and unity policy in communist period.




You know, the Muslim community in the Balkans had genocides so if you would have them do unto you surely would have broken the 3ww.
You talk about this, but look what is the same thing that was done in the regime of Milosevic (and Orthodox Serbs had advantages).
As in the Tito regime (early), where Catholics were more important.
If they do, you do not need to criticize them because even the Serbian government does.
What I mean is that "everyone is doing it."
Perhaps the only country that does not is the albania.



Yet the key are good relations between Croats and Serbs. But here it is no topic and I will not far about it. Naturally, the Albanians are not in group Yugoslav nations, they did not have republic, they were a minority who lived in Yugoslavia, respectively in Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia. And DNA analysis showed that the Geg Albanians are different from all the nations of the former Yugoslavia and in general of all the peoples of the Balkans.

I know the good raport with croats and serbs........
The your rapport is like rapport china-usa.
If you see the history of kosovo.
From the beginning it was known that the majority were Albanians.
No one can deny that.
But given that the Russians wanted to conquer the Balkans using the South Slavs decided to take action.
You are lucky if the family that real united kingdom had decided to take the albanai and make it a colony certainly kosovo and other territories would be over Albania.
As I have already answered it because it is very isolated.

Garrick
19-09-13, 19:55
You kidding me?
How you say "migration"?
You don't understand from 1920 to 1991 albanian can't escape?
And before of 1920 albanian just go in Italy or Austria for find work.
i have a question for you.
If albanian are emigrated to Serbia, in Albania would be documented.In Albania they have the exact census of migration (number and where).
And in these sheets is not written anywhere "serbia".
I can'tt understand why you say serbia? What did you have the serbia to attract so much attention of the Albanians?
In Serbia there was never any "emigration" by the Albanians, because if there was it would be documented for a long time.
Your documents are "false" and "manipulated".
Do you understand or not?
Try to be objective.

I am not sure if we understood. From 1957 to 1979 in AP Kosovo GDP grew at a rate 6.8%. At the end of this period GDP was 4 times higher. From 1961 to 1990 Serbia and Yugoslav federation invested in this Serbian province 18 billions dollars. This is all done to the Albanians remained in Kosovo. These are data from the Yugoslav sources in Serbo-Croatian. You agree that Yugoslav and Serbian communists did his best to develop this area that was particularly backward.

As funds dried up and Yugoslavia entered the crisis Albanians from Serbia and other parts of Yugoslav federation they more went abroad to work as migrant workers, mostly in west Europe and America.

Albanian demographers 30 years ago predicted that Kosovo will have 2,5 million Albanians about 2010. You can see that it is about 900,000 less. They probably calculated the well but they did not take into account economic migrations. And you saw that today unemployment young Kosovo population is 73 per cent. And these young people will go abroad, they will be new migrant workers. That's bad facts for today's Kosovo authorities. In Yugoslav time it was much much better, young people worked and founded the families. More respect for Yugoslav and Serbian communists (this applies not only to Albanians but also others, Serbs, Croats, etc., self-managing socialism was not bad system, it had results).

Garrick
19-09-13, 20:04
Another legacy of the Serb righteousness, brotherhood and respect for other non-Serbs:

According to censuses carried out in 1921 and 1931, more than half a million Germans lived in Yugoslavia - 340,000 of them in the northern Serbian province. Known as Volkdeutschers, they settled there in the 18th century following the Turks withdrawal from southern Hungary.
They had become the third largest ethnic community after the Serbs and Hungarians and a leading economic force between the two world wars.
But after the Second World War, retaliatory measures decimated the population. The Danube association says around 80,000 members of the community lost their lives - mainly women, children and the elderly - in concentration camps in the region. According to a 1991 census, just over 5000 Germans remain in Serbia.
Their confiscated property was mainly distributed to Serbs who fled to Vojvodina from Croatia, Bosnia and Montenegro during the war.

source:http://iwpr.net/report-news/serbia-expelled-germans-demand-compensation

This is the way the Serbs treated all non Serbs, no matter who they are and especially those who were seen as a threat due to their high (percentage) presence in Serbia, since this would jeopardize the chances of Serbs being the majority in their own republic.

Do not try to get cheap points. And you're wrong, I will shortly although it is not topic.

Danube Germans is Tito’s decision. He was Communist leader and leader of Yugoslav People Army. But, Tito was not Serb. It seems that he was not Croat. I don’t know his nationality, who knows, but it doesn’t matter.

Is Tito was a dictator? Yes, as in some ways he was no different from his colleagues who were communist dictators in other socialist countries. But, there were differences. Yugoslav self-managing socialism was a stark contrast to the state socialism of eastern European countries and Albania. Rights and freedom were at a much higher level. And I appreciate Tito as he knew how to deal with hard nationalists groups of all colors. Again, brotherhood and unity was great civilization heritage. Someone can learn from it.

FBS
19-09-13, 20:07
I guess you're right. There was no Serbs on Kosovo ever. Only small group of up to 1000.

So where are the maps from Garasanin? Where does he about Kosovo anyway? Have you even read Nacertanije from Garasanin? Where does he talk about occupation, colonization or war?

So it seems he was right. You did cause trouble. Now it's up to us Serbs to let us wonder why didn't we let him do that....

You said vacant space? Why was it vacant? Were they forced to go out? Or they just liked Muslim occupation better? How many of them left?

Yes, current reality is that you can molest, kill and terrorize people. It's really lame. I hope it won't ever happen to you.


So, you agree with me that Kosovars and Albanians are of different national and ethinc identity, that they should not be mixed with each other, and that same language is just a coincidence?

What do Germans have to do with Kosovo?

I never said that Kosovar and Albanians are different entities, since that would be charlatanism, not an opinion based on social sciences. Kosovar and Albanians are separated by two political entities (states) but are Albaninas as the social sciences define it, they have the common identity. Only politically are separated, similar to your case with the Serbs in BiH, they are politically separated from Serbia, but no one can stop them from feeling one with the Serbs of Serbia.

Germans of Serbia have to do everything with how the non Serbs were treated (killed and expelled) a proof that shows that not only Albanians were killed and expelled form Serbia and that the "brotherhood" was just a phrase to cover the reality in Socialist Serbia and that Garrick seems to be oblivious to it.

In my posts that you are commenting I quoted the facts and gave sources, so you are not arguing with me but with the fact finders. No matter how hard you argue with me in this thread those facts, put by those fact finders, will not be changed, they are there. On the other hand you are never bringing any facts or sources or valid arguments to this thread. It is always your subjective opinion that is not bringing any facts but only your claims that are not free of chauvinistic sentiment.

Garrick
19-09-13, 20:15
I doubt Albania would try any ethnic cleansing as certain nations tried in the past. Maybe from a political standpoint yes ei. (OFA) Ohrid Framework Agreement, that have a basis in FYRO-Macedonia because the population is around 25% ethnic Albanian give or take, there is speculation that the numbers are much higher. As to what that entails isnt a renegade fight that draws new lines but a politic intervention on a justification that the Ohrid Framework Agreement, that was implemented in 2002 I believe, has not been 'fully' implemented.

You can say about today's situation in Macedonia (former Yugoslav republic), I hoped it has related with this topic. But and in Macedonia Albanians had an armed rebellion against Macedonian authorities. Again, all of problems should be resolved in institutions. I'm against violent methods. If I understand Ohrid Agreement is for a better coexistence Macedonians, Albanians and another peoples who live in Macedonia.

Garrick
19-09-13, 20:24
What does that have to do anything with Kosovo?

Of course it does, when one country acts against another country or other countries. And you can read, former president of Albania Alfred Mojsiu, calls for Kosovo and Albania Union.

Peoples in surrounding, Montenegrins, Serbs, Macedonians and Greeks are afraid of a "Natural" or Greater Albania which promotes Koco Danaj. Such imaginary but dangerous "projects" certainly does not contribute to peace in the region but new tensions flare.

FBS
19-09-13, 20:24
Do not try to get cheap points. And you're wrong, I will shortly although it is not topic.

Danube Germans is Tito’s decision. He was Communist leader and leader of Yugoslav People Army. But, Tito was not Serb. It seems that he was not Croat. I don’t know his nationality, who knows, but it doesn’t matter.

Is Tito was a dictator? Yes, as in some ways he was no different from his colleagues who were communist dictators in other socialist countries. But, there were differences. Yugoslav self-managing socialism was a stark contrast to the state socialism of eastern European countries and Albania. Rights and freedom were at a much higher level. And I appreciate Tito as he knew how to deal with hard nationalists groups of all colors. Again, brotherhood and unity was great civilization heritage. Someone can learn from it.
You are either acting the naivety or you really believe in fairy tales and Santa Claus :confused2:. The aftermath of Yugoslavia has proved that it was a disastrous attempt and that it was just a polished surface while underneath had no solid foundation, that is why we sled into a horrible economic crisis after Titos death, Yugoslavia was in deep debts. With Ante Markovic Yugoslavia tried to reform and go back to capitalistic social order, but the nationalism had already started to boil, it was to late.

FBS
19-09-13, 20:36
Of course it does, when one country acts against another country or other countries. And you can read, former president of Albania Alfred Mojsiu, calls for Kosovo and Albania Union.

Peoples in surrounding, Montenegrins, Serbs, Macedonians and Greeks are afraid of a "Natural" or Greater Albania which promotes Koco Danaj. Such imaginary but dangerous "projects" certainly does not contribute to peace in the region but new tensions flare.
You are right, these are imaginary-wishful projects by some irrelevant individuals and sometime occasional rhetoric, but they do not come close to the programs like Nacertanija or the plans by the Serb academy that was the government program of Serbia ruled by Milosevic.

Garrick
19-09-13, 20:39
Bernard Kouchner, the UN's special envoy to Kosovo, says in the report's introduction that there had been a systematic policy of apartheid against Kosovo Albanians for at least a decade, but this was no longer the case.

December 23, 1996
The Milosevic regime fired them, and most Albanians employed in government and industry. Albanian schools are now outlawed. According to a new report by Human Rights Watch, police detain or beat up dozens of Albanians every day. Security forces have killed 21 Albanians in the last two years. Ethnic Serbs, especially war refugees, are encouraged to go to Kosovo and take jobs from Albanians. Nearly 350,000 Albanians have emigrated. http://www.nytimes.com/1996/12/23/opinion/serbia-s-apartheid-victims.html

And do you really think (Ike & Garrick) that people would still want to live under such oppression?!

I'm not supporter president Milosevic. But someone can say that Mr. Kuschner was interested actor. Institutes are more objective.

You can see articles from American Cato Institute. This is one (quote):

"Unfortunately, conflict wracks many other countries around the world. There has been mass murder in Burundi, Cambodia, Rwanda, Sudan, and Uganda; brutal insurgencies in Angola, Congo, Ethiopia, Liberia, Mozambique, Sierra Leone, and Sri Lanka; bloody wars between Armenia and Azerbaijan, Ethiopia and Somalia, India and Pakistan; endless civil war in Afghanistan; violent separatist campaigns in Iraq (Kurds), Mexico (Chiapans), Northern Ireland (Irish Catholics), Russia (Chechens), Spain (Basques), and Turkey (Kurds); and varying strife in Burma, Georgia, India, Indonesia, Tajikistan, and elsewhere.


Then there is Kosovo. Without doubt, the situation is tragic. Yet the one constant of guerrilla insurgencies and civil wars is their brutality. By both sides.


Slobodan Milosevic is a demagogic thug, but, in fact, the behavior of his government towards Albanians looks not unlike that of the more democratic Turkish regime towards Kurds. The Serbian government has caused untowards civilian casualties in Kosovo, but its conduct does not exist in a vacuum. Last June a U.S. diplomat in Belgrade told me: “If you’re a Serb, hell yes the KLA is a terrorist organization.” Even ethnic Albanians admit that the KLA had targeted Serb policemen and other government employees, Serbs viewed as abusing Kosovars, as well as Albanian “collaborators.” Each cycle of violence has spawned another."

Very real and objective text. For you, in the world should be 100, 1000, 10,000 states (better to say mini states) more than now, because there are much worse situations than it was in Serbia.

Garrick
19-09-13, 20:47
You are right, these are imaginary-wishful projects by some irrelevant individuals and sometime occasional rhetoric, but they do not come close to the programs like Nacertanija or the plans by the Serb academy that was the government program of Serbia ruled by Milosevic.

Mr. Danaj is not irrelevant, because he is Director of Center of political and social forecast in capital of Albania, and he was adviser three former Prime Ministers. Mr. Mojsiu also is no irrelevant, he was a president of Albania.

Mr. Milosevic was president of Serbia but a lot of Serbs was against him. I have already said that Albanians took to the 1992 elections in Serbia (Albanians boycotted) Mr. Panic would win and problems be solved more easily. Although the Milosevic victory against Panic was doubtful. And many out of Serbia do not understand why the Serbs were against Milosevic. And president Milosevic was shrink much more from Serbs (much less from Albanians).

FBS
19-09-13, 20:59
I'm not supporter president Milosevic. But someone can say that Mr. Kuschner was interested actor. Institutes are more objective.

You can see articles from American Cato Institute. This is one (quote):

"Unfortunately, conflict wracks many other countries around the world. There has been mass murder in Burundi, Cambodia, Rwanda, Sudan, and Uganda; brutal insurgencies in Angola, Congo, Ethiopia, Liberia, Mozambique, Sierra Leone, and Sri Lanka; bloody wars between Armenia and Azerbaijan, Ethiopia and Somalia, India and Pakistan; endless civil war in Afghanistan; violent separatist campaigns in Iraq (Kurds), Mexico (Chiapans), Northern Ireland (Irish Catholics), Russia (Chechens), Spain (Basques), and Turkey (Kurds); and varying strife in Burma, Georgia, India, Indonesia, Tajikistan, and elsewhere.


Then there is Kosovo. Without doubt, the situation is tragic. Yet the one constant of guerrilla insurgencies and civil wars is their brutality. By both sides.


Slobodan Milosevic is a demagogic thug, but, in fact, the behavior of his government towards Albanians looks not unlike that of the more democratic Turkish regime towards Kurds. The Serbian government has caused untowards civilian casualties in Kosovo, but its conduct does not exist in a vacuum. Last June a U.S. diplomat in Belgrade told me: “If you’re a Serb, hell yes the KLA is a terrorist organization.” Even ethnic Albanians admit that the KLA had targeted Serb policemen and other government employees, Serbs viewed as abusing Kosovars, as well as Albanian “collaborators.” Each cycle of violence has spawned another."

Very real and objective text. For you, in the world should be 100, 1000, 10,000 states (better to say mini states) more than now, because there are much worse situations than it was in Serbia.
You forgot to provide the source. And if the Milosevic is compared to others does not make it better, or is that what you are trying to scale, bad, worse levels of abuse of authority? If Turks are doing it to Kurds does it make it right for Serbs? And really do you believe that Kosovar Albanians would take the abuse forever? You do not see nor comprehend that it was a fight for freedom from oppression? Something that I would like to see Kurds do for their sake, fight for their freedom from Turks at least, and yes I fully support Kurdish people and every other oppressed entity to become independent. Only independent entities can become interdependent in a healthy manner. And yes it is a trend in the Europe now, and they are not waging wars against one another. Is UK government imposing their will with the tanks against Scotland as did Serbia with Slovenia and Croatia in the name of protecting the Serb minority?

FBS
19-09-13, 21:09
@ Garrick (sorry forgot to quote the text)
Exactly, "was" not "is", Edi Rama is a socialist now in power and his biggest achievement will be bringing Albania closer to the status of EU member, therefore this is an unsubstantiated fear that you are giving too much importance, not gonna happen. Neither Albania nor Kosovo government are that crazy to fight with EU or US in order to make real the Danaj plan, it is just a wishful thinking of Danaj.

Marko94
19-09-13, 21:23
1. It depends what you have read. Todays country of Croatia consists of Dalmatia, Croatia and Slavonia. You could have easily read that there was no Italians in that Croatia (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Map_of_the_Kingdom_of_Croatia-Slavonia_(1885).png), while they may have been in Dalmatia (which wasn't mentioned).

It is also questionable what is Croatia and who are Italians. If you consider Croatia as a state, it never existed before 1991 (disregarding Hitler's NDH) so there couldn't be any Italians throughout the history in Croatia, because there was no state of Croatia. So, you have to be very careful about details when you read. There are lot of malicious writers :)

2. It doesn't matter who was there first in Paleolithic. DNA analysis say what they say about E-V13 on Kosovo.
FBS himself said (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27529-Kosovo-Albanians-Haplogroups?p=411084&viewfull=1#post411084) that:"It means that the Albanian and the Kosovan populations expanded quite recently from a much smaller source population." It even concurs with everything censuses say. E-V13 population is uniformly spread across Southern-Eastern Europe, but they have just one peak on Kosovo. It is yet to be explained. They even may have nothing to do with Albanians. That's a real possibility. It could have happened that Balkan gypsies of Hg H started talking Albanian 400 years ago. If they populated fast, you'd have 60 % of Albanian speakers being of H origin now. Would that mean that Albanians are originally Indians? Of course not.

3. I know. I think that hatred between Albanians and other nations started because of the religion. People in Balkans just dislike Muslims, because of experience with Ottomans.

4. There are disagreements about numbers, but tendencies of numbers are clear. Well, Albanians could say that all other census were fraud, but I give it a low probability, especially when Kosovo is concerned. I don't see the reason why Ottomans and Austro-Hungary would lie about number of Albanians when it's clear that they both felt greater animosity towards Serbs, which always stood on their paths of imperial expanision.

It is questionable what Albanians felt about themselves at that times. Some Serbian sources from times of our uprising, mention that there have been made attempts to inspire Balkan Albanians to revolt, but that they were too primitive, not interested in politics, and having no clear idea of national identity. I wonder what other sources say about this. Italians could know something about that subject.

South of Yugoslavia was almost without exception a very regressive and conservative, and we even had problems with that in communist Yugoslavia. Most developed regions like Slovenia and northern Croatia, always objected because so much state money was going for Macedonia, Kosovo and Montenegro.

5. It's the same question as with Alexander the Great. He was a great leader, and everyone would like him to be "theirs". Well it can't be what anyone says, but what DNA says. I personally think he was both Albanian and Serbian, but it wouldn't surprise me if he of was Montenegrin, Greek, Italian or Moroccan descent. Everything is possible.

6. Yes, I agree. DNA research shows undoubtable results, but interpretations may differ. All theories must be supported with archaeological and other research. No final statements before that.

1) Did I understand correctly? If all that territories were given to Serbia now?

2) http://albania.terkepek.net/albania-terkep.jpg
Well, there is a natural border. You can see green part of Albania near the sea, and that's where real we have Hg J majority. You see green Kosovo upwards, and that's where we have Hg E majority. We see on the west part of Kosovo mountains rising up to more than 2,5 km and that's where we have Hg I majority.
I could believe that there was J majority on the Adriatic shore,around Skadar lake, but you'll have to take it wuth Montenegrings (and I guess they will not be very nice). Montenegrins are almost insane about their heredity (almost like Jews) and they keep their records for several hundreds years back at least. Anyway DNA analysis of the cemeteries can be conducted. It's easy to find corpses from 17th century, so answering that will not be a big deal.

You would also have to reconcile that theory with Serbian version (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zidanje_Skadra), and (for Kosovo) to explain why are there so many Serbian churches, monasteries, Cyrillic scripts, and so much referral to Kosovo in Serbian culture.

1)I wanted to say "In your source are writed there have never been Italian".
This is a ***** (t-r-o-l-l), because the yugoslavia hid census of how many italians were in croatia and some tito drove them.



2)Gypse came from India, all know that.
The census on Kosovo don't are so clear, it is difficult to talk about it and have a clear concept.If you do a comparison and historical facts we note that the "in the ottoman empire, Albanians moved to the center and south of Albania".
After the end of the Ottoman Empire from 1920 until 1991 no one could leave Albania.
What do you think? In Kosovo thanks to the magic have been so many Albanians? From 481,000 Albanians in 90 years there have appeared out more than 2,000,000 (the exact figure is)? What you think?
As I said before, the emigration of Albanians are well documented.


3)Yes, is right.


4)The Austrians hated the Serbs, not the Slavs.
I said before that the society slavs was well strong in the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
The sources Albanian and Italian emigration are well confirmed.
All understand that your surveys are fake.
Try to accept the truth, it is not difficult.
In 90 years in Kosovo albania from 489.000 be 2.000.000 LOL.


What?Albanian don't interest for politic? And league fo prisren??
Don't say fake things.....
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lega_di_Prizren
If it were not for the russia, I wonder how would the fyrom, serbia and bulgaria today......

Ahaha, yes is very funny.
You know that?
Many serbs say that "For us the kosovo is very important!Is the region of religion and of the economy" and "the south of yugoslavia was a very regressive and conservative".
*facepalm*.

5)I don't know about dna of alexander.
I know just he was a important king of ancient macedonian.

6)In fact i don't confimed "kosovo is of albanian", i just say "the source of you are fake about population".

1)Yes, thx to russia, you have take kosovo and macedonia.
The real reason of Russia was give the territories, then thanks to slav nationalism spread you would have united to Russia.
This was the main purpose.
And another one of their aims was also to take the port of Thessaloniki in order to have control of the Mediterranean.

2)I'm not so good for read map.
But, for monastery in Italy is very dispute (i say for kosovo).
In a study done by an Italian researcher, many Orthodox monasteries are built on Catholic churches.
An orthodox monastery very "strange" is a painting much like a painting in an Italian church and some paintings (almost destroyed) it seems that depict "the Blessed Sacrament."
I do not know if this research is true or wrong, but many monasteries ortodssi with paintings depicting saints
But if it were true, I think the Vatican will act to remove them and redo them back Catholic churches.
In Italy the fact the orthodox monasteries is at the center of a dispute if they are old and true.

Marko94
19-09-13, 21:38
I am not sure if we understood. From 1957 to 1979 in AP Kosovo GDP grew at a rate 6.8%. At the end of this period GDP was 4 times higher. From 1961 to 1990 Serbia and Yugoslav federation invested in this Serbian province 18 billions dollars. This is all done to the Albanians remained in Kosovo. These are data from the Yugoslav sources in Serbo-Croatian. You agree that Yugoslav and Serbian communists did his best to develop this area that was particularly backward.

As funds dried up and Yugoslavia entered the crisis Albanians from Serbia and other parts of Yugoslav federation they more went abroad to work as migrant workers, mostly in west Europe and America.

Albanian demographers 30 years ago predicted that Kosovo will have 2,5 million Albanians about 2010. You can see that it is about 900,000 less. They probably calculated the well but they did not take into account economic migrations. And you saw that today unemployment young Kosovo population is 73 per cent. And these young people will go abroad, they will be new migrant workers. That's bad facts for today's Kosovo authorities. In Yugoslav time it was much much better, young people worked and founded the families. More respect for Yugoslav and Serbian communists (this applies not only to Albanians but also others, Serbs, Croats, etc., self-managing socialism was not bad system, it had results).
I wanted to said about emigration.
For econmy don't interest to me, but i know that one of the main issues that divided the yugoslavia was the economic crisis happened after the death of tito.
But about population albanian in kosovo it 's impossible that 480 million people in 30 years and goes to 2,000,000 passes of the population.It 's like to say that I'm going to a uninhabited island with my girlfriend.
And in 30 years the population will be 100,000 people XD.
I think that you too are realizing that those census are not so righteous...

For comunist is the truth, if all country are comunist now we don't exist in this world......

Garrick
19-09-13, 22:25
I wanted to said about emigration.
For econmy don't interest to me, but i know that one of the main issues that divided the yugoslavia was the economic crisis happened after the death of tito.
But about population albanian in kosovo it 's impossible that 480 million people in 30 years and goes to 2,000,000 passes of the population.It 's like to say that I'm going to a uninhabited island with my girlfriend.
And in 30 years the population will be 100,000 people XD.
I think that you too are realizing that those census are not so righteous...

For comunist is the truth, if all country are comunist now we don't exist in this world......

Albanians in AP Kosovo:

1948: 498,242
1953: 524,559
1961: 646,604
1971: 916,168
1981: 1,226,736
2011: 1,616,869

Someone can notice big differences between 1961 and 1981, in only 20 years jump from 580,132 inhabitants!

Three related reasons:

1) big natality: Albanians in the Kosovo had high a rate of birth date
2) immigrants from Albania: life in Albania was hard and in Yugoslavia was much better
3) poor methodology of census, the same person listed multiple times: enumerators were not qualified and deliberately increased the number.

And I think (maybe I'm not right but it is my opinion) last census is not enough realistic, I think that about 1,400,000-1,500,000 is more realistic picture. Diaspora enumerated, and again enumerators was sometimes lacking qualifications.

Birth rate is much lower today, and rate of labor migrations abroad is high. Albanians in Kosovo are stabilizing.

FBS
19-09-13, 23:31
Albanians in AP Kosovo:

1948: 498,242
1953: 524,559
1961: 646,604
1971: 916,168
1981: 1,226,736
2011: 1,616,869

Someone can notice big differences between 1961 and 1981, in only 20 years jump from 580,132 inhabitants!

Three related reasons:

1) big natality: Albanians in the Kosovo had high a rate of birth date
2) immigrants from Albania: life in Albania was hard and in Yugoslavia was much better
3) poor methodology of census, the same person listed multiple times: enumerators were not qualified and deliberately increased the number.

And I think (maybe I'm not right but it is my opinion) last census is not enough realistic, I think that about 1,400,000-1,500,000 is more realistic picture. Diaspora enumerated, and again enumerators was sometimes lacking qualifications.

Birth rate is much lower today, and rate of labor migrations abroad is high. Albanians in Kosovo are stabilizing.
One reason that you keep on forgetting: Internally displaced Albanians from Montenegro, Macedonia, South Serbia. The Albanians that came from Albania were very few and they came with a special agreement between YU and Albania, they were all teachers and professors who got stuck and some of them died without ever seeing their families after the border got closed hermetically between two neighbors. After 1974 there was only the exchange of professors but none of them were allowed to settle in Kosovo or elsewhere in Yugoslavia, there was too much suspicion going on on both sides so everyone coming from another country was considered a spy. Abanians that came to Kosovo from other regions of Yugoslavia decided to live in Kosovo because they could educate their children in Albanian since with the autonomy came the right for studying in Albanian, and they also found jobs.

Second reason can be that the initial cenuses were manipulated since the Serb nationalist wanted to present smaller numbers and Tito just plaid along in order to keep them calm until 1974 when he agreed to give autonomy to Kosovo. So, in 1981 might be the realistic figures.

Ike
20-09-13, 00:47
1)I wanted to say "In your source are writed there have never been Italian".
This is a *****, because the yugoslavia hid census of how many italians were in croatia and some tito drove them.

I still don't quite understand you. I gave you the link of Kosovo demographics, surely there was no Italians there, nor Croatia is mentioned. As for Italians in Croatia, we have data before Yugoslavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Dalmatia#1910), in Kingdom Yugoslavia here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Yugoslavia#Ethnic_groups) and here (http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanovništvo_Jugoslavije#Popis_1921.), and here (http://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demografija_Hrvatske).

1880 - 27.000
1900 - 15.000
1910 - 17.000
1918 - 12.000
1921 - 13.000
1931 - 6.000
1948 - 76.000
1953 - 37.000
1961 - 21.000
1971 - 17.000
1981 - 12.000
1991 - 21.000

What do you think is hidden? Why would Tito lie about Italians, what was his agenda? You think he was lying that they were slowly emigrating from SFRJ?

Gypse came from India, all know that.
Yes, we all know that. That has nothing to do with my point. I could have used Egyptians, Hungaraians or whichever else. I used Gypsies because there are a lot of them in Serbia.


The census on Kosovo don't are so clear, it is difficult to talk about it and have a clear concept.If you do a comparison and historical facts we note that the "in the ottoman empire, Albanians moved to the center and south of Albania"
After the end of the Ottoman Empire from 1920 until 1991 no one could leave Albania.
What do you think? In Kosovo thanks to the magic have been so many Albanians? From 481,000 Albanians in 90 years there have appeared out more than 2,000,000 (the exact figure is)? What you think?
As I said before, the emigration of Albanians are well documented.

I think those figures are correct. I see no reason why would Tito lie about the number of Albanians. In fact, he was the one who wanted to include Albania in Yugoslavia after WW2.

So what are you suggesting that everyone from 1200 AD up till now faked the number of Albanians? Ottomans, Austrians, Serbs, Communists? Why would they do that? So, who built all those Serbian churches and monasteries in Kosovo? Albanians? Why is Serbian Patriarchate located on Kosovo? How do you explain those things?

And what do you mean that emigration from Albanian is well documented? Who can document illegal emigrants precisely? How can those data be more precise than census?



4)The Austrians hated the Serbs, not the Slavs. I have the same opinion, but I said animosity. I think hatred is too hard term for that.



The sources Albanian and Italian emigration are well confirmed.
All understand that your surveys are fake.
Try to accept the truth, it is not difficult.
In 90 years in Kosovo albania from 489.000 be 2.000.000 LOL.

What my surveys? You mean Tito's censuses are fake?


What?Albanian don't interest for politic? And league fo prisren??
Don't say fake things.....
It happened lot later. I'm not talking about Prizren league. Anyway I'm sure there always were nationaly aware Albanians, even in 1400, or else there wouldn't be any Albanians today. But we're talking about majority of the people, and about their attitude towards nationality.


If it were not for the russia, I wonder how would the fyrom, serbia and bulgaria today......

If there wasn't for Russia, Serbs would probably be Catholic, and would be with Austro-Hungary from 1717.


Many serbs say that "For us the kosovo is very important!Is the region of religion and of the economy" and "the south of yugoslavia was a very regressive and conservative".
*facepalm*.
That's a fact that region was undeveloped . Are you even questioning that?


6)In fact i don't confimed "kosovo is of albanian", i just say "the source of you are fake about population".

All sources? From everyone? Find one that says different? Present some other evidence? Why should some Asian trust your words, without any basis for doubt?


1)Yes, thx to russia, you have take kosovo and macedonia.
The real reason of Russia was give the territories, then thanks to slav nationalism spread you would have united to Russia.

Yeah, Russian Tsar came in 1200 AD and said thath Macedonia should belong to Serbia? What are you talking about? Where were Albaninas at that time? Why are there no mentions of any Albanina ruler or battle for centuries? Why did Macedonia and Kosovo belong to Bulgaria? Who waged wars with them for those territories, Serbs or Albanians?



In a study done by an Italian researcher, many Orthodox monasteries are built on Catholic churches.
An orthodox monastery very "strange" is a diponto much like a diponto in an Italian church and some paintings (almost destroyed) it seems that depict "the Blessed Sacrament."
I do not know if this research is true or wrong, but many monasteries ortodssi with paintings depicting saints
But if it were true, I think the Vatican will act to remove them and redo them back Catholic churches.
In Italy the fact the orthodox monasteries is at the center of a dispute if they are old and true.

So what you're saying's that all the Serbian Orthodox monasteries were once Catholic? Who built them and when?

Ike
20-09-13, 01:00
Germans of Serbia have to do everything with how the non Serbs were treated (killed and expelled) a proof that shows that not only Albanians were killed and expelled form Serbia and that the "brotherhood" was just a phrase to cover the reality in Socialist Serbia and that Garrick seems to be oblivious to it.

So that are your proofs? Treatment of Germans at the end of WW2?



In my posts that you are commenting I quoted the facts and gave sources, so you are not arguing with me but with the fact finders. No matter how hard you argue with me in this thread those facts, put by those fact finders, will not be changed, they are there. On the other hand you are never bringing any facts or sources or valid arguments to this thread. It is always your subjective opinion that is not bringing any facts but only your claims that are not free of chauvinistic sentiment.

I asked you for quotes, maps and numbers, and you're giving me this?! :) Nothing have you said up so far, except giving one general notion that Serbs had idea to make a bigger state in XIX century. On the other hand, you're neglecting every valid data, with your personal opinion, and not giving any evidence of support.

What are you even trying to achieve? To kill this thread? It has lost all meaning.

FBS
20-09-13, 07:30
@ike
Do you need to use the language of "shouting"in every post of yours, there is too much noise in the way you are expressing yourself.:sad-2:

Ike
20-09-13, 10:19
You must have confused me with someone else. I speak with normal letters.

FBS
20-09-13, 10:49
@Garrick

The official statistics of unemployment for 6 months of 2012 (I am paste-ing from the Kosovo Agency Statistics):

Kosovo 35.1 %
Urban 28.5 %
Rural 40.1 %
Male 32.0 %
Female 44.4.%
Youth (aged 15 to 24 years) 60.2 %
Source: Labour Force Survey, January to June 2012 (http://esk.rks-gov.net/ENG/publikimet/cat_view/16-labour-market?orderby=dmdate_published)

So the overall unemployment of Kosvo is 35,1%. Female have traditionally been less employed in Kosovo, the percentage was high in YU times as well but nobody cared since we were collectively moderately poor. Rural areas have always been more unemployed since they own their land, so they were considered as self employed in YU.

There is one thing though that is not being taken into account now in Kosovo statistics. Kosovar Law for business registration recognizes only three types of business: Limited Liability, Inc/corporation and small businesses But there is no regulation for the self-employed category, something that functions in Holland for eg and maybe all over EU. There are a lot of self-employed that are not registered, since they are not regulated, and of course they want to avoid the taxation. We have the case now happening in the center of Prishtina, a dispute of these self-employed with the municipality since the municipality wants them to be registered as small businesses and pay taxes that are too high for them. There are also privately employed (for their lifetime) that are not registered as well because of the taxation.

Garrick
20-09-13, 17:11
@Garrick

The official statistics of unemployment for 6 months of 2012 (I am paste-ing from the Kosovo Agency Statistics):

Kosovo 35.1 %
Urban 28.5 %
Rural 40.1 %
Male 32.0 %
Female 44.4.%
Youth (aged 15 to 24 years) 60.2 %
Source: Labour Force Survey, January to June 2012 (http://esk.rks-gov.net/ENG/publikimet/cat_view/16-labour-market?orderby=dmdate_published)

So the overall unemployment of Kosvo is 35,1%. Female have traditionally been less employed in Kosovo, the percentage was high in YU times as well but nobody cared since we were collectively moderately poor. Rural areas have always been more unemployed since they own their land, so they were considered as self employed in YU.

There is one thing though that is not being taken into account now in Kosovo statistics. Kosovar Law for business registration recognizes only three types of business: Limited Liability, Inc/corporation and small businesses But there is no regulation for the self-employed category, something that functions in Holland for eg and maybe all over EU. There are a lot of self-employed that are not registered, since they are not regulated, and of course they want to avoid the taxation. We have the case now happening in the center of Prishtina, a dispute of these self-employed with the municipality since the municipality wants them to be registered as small businesses and pay taxes that are too high for them. There are also privately employed (for their lifetime) that are not registered as well because of the taxation.



Why you've been focusing on to what you see wrong. Bad data (and not only for Kosovo). Kosovo GDP (PPP purchasing power parity) per capita is $7.279. Now Albania is slightly higher, $8.052, and sometimes the Autonomous Province of Kosovo in the Republic of Serbia was much better than Albania. Data that you show it would have been even worse if not hundreds of thousands of Albanians from Kosovo who are now in Western Europe, America, Canada and others. And all the former Yugoslavian countries are poor, and Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia, Croatia, not to talk. Yet at the time of self-managing socialism that was much better. These communists knew what they were doing. Overwhelming fact is that industrial production in the SFR Yugoslavia was 2 and 3 times higher than today in small countries former YU. While other regions and countries of the world progressed, territory of the former SFR Yugoslavia suffered a heavy setback. And even that Slovenia, which bears much of the blame for the breakup of Yugoslavia is not in a much better situation, as waiting for the inevitable bailout.

But to we return to Kosovo. Notice how an Israeli researcher paints people from this area. He thinks Greater Albania is big myth. But here I just want to quote the people as they are characterized by him:

Sam Vaknin, PhD

http://samvak.tripod.com/pp30.html

“To the politicians of the Balkans - almost without exception corrupt and despised by their own constituencies - the myth of Great Albania comes handy. It keeps the phobic Macedonians, the disdainful Serbs and the poor and crime ridden Albanians united and submissive: each group for different, idiosyncratic reasons.”

What do you think, where a heaven for organized crime? In poor areas.

View on Wikipedia:

Crime in Kosovo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Kosovo

I do not like to write about these topics. I know we all would have liked that our region to be characterized by the progress of industry, science, information technology and so on. But it is not. For me personally is the sorrowful fact that the entire region just before the thirty years had much better prospects. Now is the wreck. And that is the reality.

Now you see what I was talking about. Yes, Yugoslavia and Serbia at the time of self-managing socialism had as a major objective for Serbian province of Kosovo:

Development, development, development…

That was possible only with:

Funds, funds, funds.

Many resources are given, billions and billions of dollars, but it was worth it, AP Kosovo is really advanced. From this sad perspective that struck the entire area of the former Yugoslavia including Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia, the old communists can only laugh, a generation who are now in considerable years, including the generation of YU Albanians, can remember the good old days. They can actually be nostalgic. But you cannot blame them, they are entitled to it.

Marko94
20-09-13, 20:46
Albanians in AP Kosovo:

1948: 498,242
1953: 524,559
1961: 646,604
1971: 916,168
1981: 1,226,736
2011: 1,616,869

Someone can notice big differences between 1961 and 1981, in only 20 years jump from 580,132 inhabitants!

Three related reasons:

1) big natality: Albanians in the Kosovo had high a rate of birth date
2) immigrants from Albania: life in Albania was hard and in Yugoslavia was much better
3) poor methodology of census, the same person listed multiple times: enumerators were not qualified and deliberately increased the number.

And I think (maybe I'm not right but it is my opinion) last census is not enough realistic, I think that about 1,400,000-1,500,000 is more realistic picture. Diaspora enumerated, and again enumerators was sometimes lacking qualifications.

Birth rate is much lower today, and rate of labor migrations abroad is high. Albanians in Kosovo are stabilizing.

I think are wrong.

1)It 's impossible that are quai 500,000 Albanians to 1948, given that since 1870 (thanks to the league) it was known that there were many Albanians.
There is something wrong.
So, as mentioned above are wrong.

2)Is impossible that.
Have been closed borders.
Europe has tried many times to enter or stay in Albania near the border.
And then if it were as you say you then in Italy and Greece, there would be little immigration.
Again, the yugoslavia had nothing special.
Then the Albanians who are in Greece, Italy, Germany and Switzerland so stupid that they left them?

3)What? I think this methodology is wrong or fake.
In fact if it were true everything should ends.

All managment is controlled by ue.
Need to know real number of kosovar albanian, because is impossibile from 500.000 go to 2.000.000.
And the normal family albanian is compose by 3 or 4 son.

FBS
20-09-13, 21:42
Why you've been focusing on to what you see wrong. Bad data (and not only for Kosovo). Kosovo GDP (PPP purchasing power parity) per capita is $7.279. Now Albania is slightly higher, $8.052, and sometimes the Autonomous Province of Kosovo in the Republic of Serbia was much better than Albania. Data that you show it would have been even worse if not hundreds of thousands of Albanians from Kosovo who are now in Western Europe, America, Canada and others. And all the former Yugoslavian countries are poor, and Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia, Croatia, not to talk. Yet at the time of self-managing socialism that was much better. These communists knew what they were doing. Overwhelming fact is that industrial production in the SFR Yugoslavia was 2 and 3 times higher than today in small countries former YU. While other regions and countries of the world progressed, territory of the former SFR Yugoslavia suffered a heavy setback. And even that Slovenia, which bears much of the blame for the breakup of Yugoslavia is not in a much better situation, as waiting for the inevitable bailout.

But to we return to Kosovo. Notice how an Israeli researcher paints people from this area. He thinks Greater Albania is big myth. But here I just want to quote the people as they are characterized by him:

Sam Vaknin, PhD

http://samvak.tripod.com/pp30.html

“To the politicians of the Balkans - almost without exception corrupt and despised by their own constituencies - the myth of Great Albania comes handy. It keeps the phobic Macedonians, the disdainful Serbs and the poor and crime ridden Albanians united and submissive: each group for different, idiosyncratic reasons.”

What do you think, where a heaven for organized crime? In poor areas.

View on Wikipedia:

Crime in Kosovo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Kosovo

I do not like to write about these topics. I know we all would have liked that our region to be characterized by the progress of industry, science, information technology and so on. But it is not. For me personally is the sorrowful fact that the entire region just before the thirty years had much better prospects. Now is the wreck. And that is the reality.

Now you see what I was talking about. Yes, Yugoslavia and Serbia at the time of self-managing socialism had as a major objective for Serbian province of Kosovo:

Development, development, development…

That was possible only with:

Funds, funds, funds.

Many resources are given, billions and billions of dollars, but it was worth it, AP Kosovo is really advanced. From this sad perspective that struck the entire area of the former Yugoslavia including Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia, the old communists can only laugh, a generation who are now in considerable years, including the generation of YU Albanians, can remember the good old days. They can actually be nostalgic. But you cannot blame them, they are entitled to it.
Good old Sam Vaknin:rolleyes2:. I used to read 10 years ago his writings on narcissists and I loved it, but I did not know that he was engaged in the region. Thanks for the link I enjoyed reading it all to the end, my thoughts exactly. I know that Greater Albania at this moment is just a myth, something that I expressed in this threadearlier when you brought it up, and politicians use it when they are loosing their power but not when they are secure in their positions, it is just a rhetoric. No one in Kosovo takes this rhetoric seriously, since we know they cannot deliver.

Regarding Yugo - nostalgia, I am sorry but I do not feel the same with you. I think that it is about time for you to let it go as well:disappointed:. There is no use, we have to think of what lies ahead and, most of all, enjoy the now. There is only one life we get to live so we should try to make it as better as possible for ourselves without doing harm to others. We cannot bring back the time, we can only give our best efforts now for a better future, learn from the past and vow never to make same mistakes again. We can only be responsible for our personal deeds, so let us all start from ourselves. Balkan needs to get over the past and look into the future. I hope you agree...:smile:

Marko94
20-09-13, 22:02
I still don't quite understand you. I gave you the link of Kosovo demographics, surely there was no Italians there, nor Croatia is mentioned. As for Italians in Croatia, we have data before Yugoslavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Dalmatia#1910), in Kingdom Yugoslavia here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Yugoslavia#Ethnic_groups) and here (http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanovništvo_Jugoslavije#Popis_1921.), and here (http://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demografija_Hrvatske).

1880 - 27.000
1900 - 15.000
1910 - 17.000
1918 - 12.000
1921 - 13.000
1931 - 6.000
1948 - 76.000
1953 - 37.000
1961 - 21.000
1971 - 17.000
1981 - 12.000
1991 - 21.000

What do you think is hidden? Why would Tito lie about Italians, what was his agenda? You think he was lying that they were slowly emigrating from SFRJ?


I don't speak about kosovo *facepalm*.
I speak about italian kicked by tito in time of yugoslavia.
According to wikipedia, in the begin of XX century the ethnic group italian was well consistent.
OMG i think you don't know nothing about tito, because tito had "kick" italian, i think he don't love italian.
Because if he love italian don't kick.
According to wikipedia, Tito had kicked 250.000-350.000 italian italian, yea Tito don't hate italian.



Yes, we all know that. That has nothing to do with my point. I could have used Egyptians, Hungaraians or whichever else. I used Gypsies because there are a lot of them in Serbia.

In all country of europe are so many gypse.
Special in Romania and Bulgaria.





I think those figures are correct. I see no reason why would Tito lie about the number of Albanians. In fact, he was the one who wanted to include Albania in Yugoslavia after WW2.

So what are you suggesting that everyone from 1200 AD up till now faked the number of Albanians? Ottomans, Austrians, Serbs, Communists? Why would they do that? So, who built all those Serbian churches and monasteries in Kosovo? Albanians? Why is Serbian Patriarchate located on Kosovo? How do you explain those things?

And what do you mean that emigration from Albanian is well documented? Who can document illegal emigrants precisely? How can those data be more precise than census?


If it were so allroa should be, but is not as stranmente.
He never said "i love albanian."
He was a Slav nationalist and he knew that the Albanians were not Slavs.
And then albania never entered in yugoslavia LOL .....

Mhhh, yea.
The albanian was and they were not only loved by neighboring ethnic groups becuase good portion of them was Muslim.
The serbia and serbs don't is a country so clear.
I think I think your idea of Serbia is a country without mafia and ahead of Albania.But it is not.
Your country is full of corruption and mafia as many of the other Balkan countries.
It 's normal that you have modified the census because they were not Slavs and had good relationships.
It takes time to know about kosovo.



I have the same opinion, but I said animosity. I think hatred is too hard term for that.

Hard term for start a war?
I think is low term, the hate and nationalism slavs have contributed.



What my surveys? You mean Tito's censuses are fake?

Mhhh, yea.
If is correct now don't have a problem.
I think albanians like a hungarians was a important problem in yugoslavia because they are not slavs.
Yugoslavia was founded for be a federation with just slavs.
In fact the name is "slavs of south".



It happened lot later. I'm not talking about Prizren league. Anyway I'm sure there always were nationaly aware Albanians, even in 1400, or else there wouldn't be any Albanians today. But we're talking about majority of the people, and about their attitude towards nationality.


Who say that? We don't know again origin of albanian.




If there wasn't for Russia, Serbs would probably be Catholic, and would be with Austro-Hungary from 1717.

Catholic? What? Explain that.



That's a fact that region was undeveloped . Are you even questioning that?


I wanted to say.
Are you who you say it.
This is called utopia.
You can not say one thing as opposed to another.



All sources? From everyone? Find one that says different? Present some other evidence? Why should some Asian trust your words, without any basis for doubt?

Because there is no logical thread.
It 's impossible that in 70 years from 500,000 to 2,000,000 passes (and more).
There is something wrong.



Yeah, Russian Tsar came in 1200 AD and said thath Macedonia should belong to Serbia? What are you talking about? Where were Albaninas at that time? Why are there no mentions of any Albanina ruler or battle for centuries? Why did Macedonia and Kosovo belong to Bulgaria? Who waged wars with them for those territories, Serbs or Albanians?


You know what happen in the cogres of belin in 1887?
I think no...........i answer to you.
"In 1878 thanks to Russia the serbia taked kosovo and montenegro " and "in 1912 again with Russia the Serbia taked a fyrom".
You don't know that?? All know that.
Do not see any mention of the Albanians but they are there.
You think that they are a new ethnic group, but it is not.
If it were so then the Albanian language would not be mainly Latin.
The Albanian language has nothing to Albanian (not yet know their origin) since it is composed of Latin, turkish, slavic, greek, German, Illyrian, Thracian and Dacian.








So what you're saying's that all the Serbian Orthodox monasteries were once Catholic? Who built them and when?

If in some paintings seem to depict the sacrament destroyed then I doubt.
It's nothing confirmed since it is a story of 3 or 4 months ago, if is confirmed by unesco'd (because the are work) be interested to see the actions of the Vatican.

Ike
20-09-13, 22:13
Ok, lets take it one by one. We'll discuss other topics later. Number of ethnic Albanians:

Kosovo census (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo#Ethnic_groups):
1948 - 498.000
1991 - 1.596.000

That is 3.2 times over the 43 year period.

Albania census (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Albania#Ethnic_groups_and_language s):
1945 - 1.075.000
1989 - 3.117.000

That is 2.9 times over the period of 44 years.


The multiplier is pretty much around 3x in both areas.

Garrick
20-09-13, 22:38
Good old Sam Vaknin. I used to read 10 years ago his writings on narcissists and I loved it, but I did not know that he was engaged in the region. Thanks for the link I enjoyed reading it all to the end, my thoughts exactly. I know that Greater Albania at this moment is just a myth, something that I expressed in this threadearlier when you brought it up, and politicians use it when they are loosing their power but not when they are secure in their positions, it is just a rhetoric. No one in Kosovo takes this rhetoric seriously, since we know they cannot deliver.

Regarding Yugo - nostalgia, I am sorry but I do not feel the same with you. I think that it is about time for you to let it go as wel. There is no use, we have to think of what lies ahead and, most of all, enjoy the now. There is only one life we get to live so we should try to make it as better as possible for ourselves without doing harm to others. We cannot bring back the time, we can only give our best efforts now for a better future, learn from the past and vow never to make same mistakes again. We can only be responsible for our personal deeds, so let us all start from ourselves. Balkan needs to get over the past and look into the future. I hope you agree...

Yes, Dr. Vaknin is right, Greater Albania is myth, today, tomorrow and for all times. But that idea brings a lot of fears among Montenegrins, Serbs, Macedonians and Greeks, because projects of Greater Albania have its active supporters.

Yesterday was development, and it was rapid development. Today crime, corruption, extremism etc. eroding societies. It is better to return to the path of development.

FBS
20-09-13, 22:56
Yes, Dr. Vaknin is right, Greater Albania is myth, today, tomorrow and for all times. But that idea brings a lot of fears among Montenegrins, Serbs, Macedonians and Greeks, because projects of Greater Albania have its active supporters.

Yesterday was development, and it was rapid development. Today crime, corruption, extremism etc. eroding societies. It is better to return to the path of development.
Cheer up pal, negativity kills the initiative. So stand up and do something about it in your country. That is what I do with my everyday work, I don't intend to give up. I can definitely give my contribution to the now and to the future, but there is nothing I can do about the past. So, let us make better now:good_job:.

Garrick
20-09-13, 23:02
Ok, lets take it one by one. We'll discuss other topics later. Number of ethnic Albanians:

Kosovo census (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo#Ethnic_groups):
1948 - 498.000
1991 - 1.596.000

That is 3.2 times over the 43 year period.

Albania census (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Albania#Ethnic_groups_and_language s):
1945 - 1.075.000
1989 - 3.117.000

That is 2.9 times over the period of 44 years.


The multiplier is pretty much around 3x in both areas.

Albania after War had immigration from Greece because Albanians in Greece were on the side of the occupiers. I don't know if Albanians from Greece went to Yugoslavia directly, although I do not beleive. Kosovo had immigration from Albania after 1948 (at fifties) and it was documented. Assumed to be from Albania to Serbia about 75.000 Albanians, maybe more. I don't know if immigration continued at sixties and seventies. One part of Turks was assimilated into Albanians. Thesis of FBS about internal immigrations Albanians in Yugoslavia is interesting, but it was not documented. Keep in mind that the figures are exaggerated due to lack of experience interviewing or intentions. Of course birth rate was high. There is still some momentum. Yugoslav and Serbian communists took care about people. Health care was highly improved (better than today in Kosovo!). And child mortality has dropped significantly. Although Albanians difficult recognize, Serbian communists were like angels.

FBS
20-09-13, 23:20
And child mortality has dropped significantly. Although Albanians difficult recognize, Serbian communists were like angels.
Please do not put Serbian communist and angels in one sentence:grin:.

I see that Slavs (Serb and Macedonian) are obsessed with the natality rates of Albanians in Yugoslavia. Be aware that this is a racism. I tried to make it funny and a bit of sarcastic in my previous replies regarding this matter, but seriously you need to drop it since it is in breach of human rights, none can order anyone how many children they can have, it is a personal thing. And frankly this natality thing is a myth used by Slav nationalist so it became a "babaroga"for Serbs and Macedonians of Yugoslavia.

Ike
20-09-13, 23:23
I quoted that because Marko94 expressed doubs that there is no chance that some population had such a high growth of 3x over the period of 4 decades and that Yugoslavian government lied. I've quoted him the Albanian population growth for same period, where he can see that it was not uncommon, and that those two neighbours of same national identity, same language, similar socio-economic position and religion shared the similar population growth rate for that period.

I'm sure there were some people getting here and there, internal migrations, and illegal immigrants on all territories, but not in so big numbers to deteriorate the obvious trend in both populations, or to support his accusations of objectivity of the censuses that communists did.

Garrick
20-09-13, 23:24
Cheer up pal, negativity kills the initiative. So stand up and do something about it in your country. That is what I do with my everyday work, I don't intend to give up. I can definitely give my contribution to the now and to the future, but there is nothing I can do about the past. So, let us make better now.

You did not notice, I wrote in the plural. The Balkans is much collapsed, the Balkans is now ruined. Kosovo has less GDP per capita in compare with quite African countries, which used greatly exceeded. Albania is poor and actually has no development. And Bosnia dropped significantly, but not much better are other former YU republics. Serbia was destroyed due to NATO bombing and sanctions. Bulgaria lost in migrations amazing part of population. The bad thing is that Greece is in trouble. Perhaps due to situation in surrounding some Albanian strategists push for a Greater Albania. If Greece, Serbia, Montenegro and other countries are stronger certainly such "projects" would not exist.

FBS
20-09-13, 23:51
You did not notice, I wrote in the plural. The Balkans is much collapsed, the Balkans is now ruined. Kosovo has less GDP per capita in compare with quite African countries, which used greatly exceeded. Albania is poor and actually has no development. And Bosnia dropped significantly, but not much better are other former YU republics. Serbia was destroyed due to NATO bombing and sanctions. Bulgaria lost in migrations amazing part of population. The bad thing is that Greece is in trouble. Perhaps due to situation in surrounding some Albanian strategists push for a Greater Albania. If Greece, Serbia, Montenegro and other countries are stronger certainly such "projects" would not exist.
Yeah, I see, all doom and gloom. Well people, this is all from me in this thread. I do not think that I can contribute anymore to change your perception of the world and especially Balkans and Albanians, I guess you are not prepared. So be good:cool-v:

Garrick
20-09-13, 23:56
Please do not put Serbian communist and angels in one sentence.

I see that Slavs (Serb and Macedonian) are obsessed with the natality rates of Albanians in Yugoslavia. Be aware that this is a racism. I tried to make it funny and a bit of sarcastic in my previous replies regarding this matter, but seriously you need to drop it since it is in breach of human rights, none can order anyone how many children they can have, it is a personal thing. And frankly this natality thing is a myth used by Slav nationalist so it became a "babaroga"for Serbs and Macedonians of Yugoslavia.

In my writing you can not find, we only commented some earlier census' figures that were illogical and gave explanations. For me the growth of Albanian population in Kosovo is not problem. I said, armed rebellion is problem, and other negative phenomena (crime, Muslim intention to dominate etc.). But we in Serbia almost does not discuss about Albanian birth rate. Two decades ago in the Balkans Albanian children were born for 1/3 larger than Serbian children (Albanians were quite less population), today numbers are same.

But probably you're right for Macedonia. Maybe this is understandable because many places in Macedonia are mixed Albanians and Macedonians and which nation has higher birthrate, this nation will dominate in these places. And Albanians have high population growth in Macedonia. Now Macedonians say that is due to migrations from Kosovo. I don't know, but if migrations from Kosovo exist this will lead to the reduction of the population of Kosovo. I showed official data, now is less Albanians in Balkans than 2-3 decades ago. If and why Macedonians obsessed with Albanian birthrate let explain some Macedonian or Albanian from Macedonia.

Ike
21-09-13, 01:36
And frankly this natality thing is a myth used by Slav nationalist...

That's all you have to say after I've quoted the censuses? What was the point of that sentence of yours?
You're consecutively claiming that someone is lying, and you're incapable to confront the facts.

Garrick
21-09-13, 01:59
Yeah, I see, all doom and gloom. Well people, this is all from me in this thread. I do not think that I can contribute anymore to change your perception of the world and especially Balkans and Albanians, I guess you are not prepared. So be good

What is your point? Balkan is economic devastated, Kosovo is the worst, but all countries are in big economic troubles. Do you think if you keep your mouth shut that things will improve?

Garrick
21-09-13, 17:52
Marko. Your opinion about Slavic nations is not real. Specifically, Serbs in last century and a half were mostly related to the London and United Kingdom. And many Serbs true adore UK. I think that all nations in the world have respect for UK, in England started the Industrial Revolution that was main turning point in the history of mankind.

Certainly Serbs have historic ties with France and Russia too. Also, Serbs highly regard Chinese. Between Balkans nations Serbs have strongest historical ties with Greeks. Serbs were one of the drivers of non-aligned countries and have developed excellent relationships with many Arab countries, African countries, India, Latin American countries and East Asian countries.

The most complex relationships are between Serbs and Germans/Austrians. In two world wars Serbs had three million victims in Balkans as a result of the occupation of Austria-Hungary and Nazi-Germany. In world war two a lot of Serbs were victims of puppet regime established by the Axis powers. By far most of the Serbian victims were in the “Independent state of Croatia” established by Axis powers, in this puppet country was the genocide against Serbs.

Germany today is the country that has one of the best economies in the world. Germany is the country with the most influence in European Union. Personally, I appreciate Germany. But relationships between two countries are complex and I can’t adorn. Although, Serbs and Austrians, Germans were for many centuries the Allies against the Ottoman Empire. Things are not black and white and the relationships between the nations depend on many factors.

And Serbs were Allies with Americans. The conflict between Clinton’s and Milosevic’s administration is tied to a specific time and historical circumstances. World genius Nikola Tesla, ethnic Serb, his most important inventions of mankind, has achieved in America. Serbs over a century emigrate in America, and there is a joke that after Belgrade (capital of Serbia) Chicago is the largest Serbian city.

This is just short of distract from the topic in response to your opinions about Russians and Slavs generally.

We back to the thread.

Marko94
21-09-13, 22:28
Ok, lets take it one by one. We'll discuss other topics later. Number of ethnic Albanians:

Kosovo census (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo#Ethnic_groups):
1948 - 498.000
1991 - 1.596.000

That is 3.2 times over the 43 year period.

Albania census (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Albania#Ethnic_groups_and_language s):
1945 - 1.075.000
1989 - 3.117.000

That is 2.9 times over the period of 44 years.


The multiplier is pretty much around 3x in both areas.

The census about in Kosovo are wrong.
And the census in Albania is a mixture with albanian,greek,italians,slavs and kosovar albanians LOL.
Ike this is a epic fail for you.......

Marko94
21-09-13, 22:43
Albania after War had immigration from Greece because Albanians in Greece were on the side of the occupiers. I don't know if Albanians from Greece went to Yugoslavia directly, although I do not beleive. Kosovo had immigration from Albania after 1948 (at fifties) and it was documented. Assumed to be from Albania to Serbia about 75.000 Albanians, maybe more. I don't know if immigration continued at sixties and seventies. One part of Turks was assimilated into Albanians. Thesis of FBS about internal immigrations Albanians in Yugoslavia is interesting, but it was not documented. Keep in mind that the figures are exaggerated due to lack of experience interviewing or intentions. Of course birth rate was high. There is still some momentum. Yugoslav and Serbian communists took care about people. Health care was highly improved (better than today in Kosovo!). And child mortality has dropped significantly. Although Albanians difficult recognize, Serbian communists were like angels.
OMG.
This is a OMG because you think yugoslavia is a perfect federation, but is a "s***t" (accept the truth) like albania comunist and ussr.
Albanian go just in greece and italy for find work because just two country are very great.
Yugoslavia a important federation for Albanian? Plis ****** Is just a your dream.
Yugoslavia has never been a federation rich and important.
You say "albanian in kosovo are aumented because from albania go in Kosovo", but this is wrong....family of my father was kick from kosovo by nazi german.
My father told me that many families were exiled and sent to Albania.
Thanks to these families kicked created villages in the north of Albania and passing the south by population.
My father was born in a village called "Xhakaze", this village was one of many created by the Kosovar Albanians.
Try to accept the truth, the fact of the censuses are all wrong.
The federation to which you believe that it is "so strong" is actually only a federation gear and without a spirit of nationality and on lies.
I don't understand why all slavs think that "Slavs are the best in the world"....why, why.........you are an example of nationalism given from birth.........

Marko94
21-09-13, 23:17
Marko. Your opinion about Slavic nations is not real. Specifically, Serbs in last century and a half were mostly related to the London and United Kingdom. And many Serbs true adore UK. I think that all nations in the world have respect for UK, in England started the Industrial Revolution that was main turning point in the history of mankind.

Certainly Serbs have historic ties with France and Russia too. Also, Serbs highly regard Chinese. Between Balkans nations Serbs have strongest historical ties with Greeks. Serbs were one of the drivers of non-aligned countries and have developed excellent relationships with many Arab countries, African countries, India, Latin American countries and East Asian countries.

The most complex relationships are between Serbs and Germans/Austrians. In two world wars Serbs had three million victims in Balkans as a result of the occupation of Austria-Hungary and Nazi-Germany. In world war two a lot of Serbs were victims of puppet regime established by the Axis powers. By far most of the Serbian victims were in the “Independent state of Croatia” established by Axis powers, in this puppet country was the genocide against Serbs.

Germany today is the country that has one of the best economies in the world. Germany is the country with the most influence in European Union. Personally, I appreciate Germany. But relationships between two countries are complex and I can’t adorn. Although, Serbs and Austrians, Germans were for many centuries the Allies against the Ottoman Empire. Things are not black and white and the relationships between the nations depend on many factors.

And Serbs were Allies with Americans. The conflict between Clinton’s and Milosevic’s administration is tied to a specific time and historical circumstances. World genius Nikola Tesla, ethnic Serb, his most important inventions of mankind, has achieved in America. Serbs over a century emigrate in America, and there is a joke that after Belgrade (capital of Serbia) Chicago is the largest Serbian city.

This is just short of distract from the topic in response to your opinions about Russians and Slavs generally.

We back to the thread.
Yea, i know how serbia love UK.
In fact governament of serbia "have a contrast with montenegro,fyrom and croatia" because they have recognize kosovo, and in fact uk not have recognize....LOL.
The really love of serbia is just Russia and Putin.
Governament of Serbia take cash from bak european and russia.
The other contry that joined in the ue they did it with their forces and european help.
Serbia enter with help of europa and help for russia :P.
the serbia don't have a personality, is controlled by russia.
Albania don't is controlled by usa,italy, or greece.



greece will have to make a decision.
Serbia or Albania?
Definitely choose albania for profits.
For many things pick Albania.
Economy, dispure of name "fyrom" or "macedonia", place names(south albania), rights of Greeks in the south of Albania.
One thing about Greece, greece don't recognizes Kosovo, ok but they have a rapport economy.
Not just serbia have a good rapport with arabs,chinese and other.

germany have a good rapports with all country of europe......i don't think just serbia have a good rapport iwth germany.
I think is no sense this nationalism.


USA have a rapport with russia and chinese.
But this rapport is truth? or just for economy?
I think in serbia the television say that "Serbia is big country! serbia have a important rapport with and etc.".
This is a "not nationalism" lol.
Listen me, your serbia don't nothing so special for all.......if is serbia is important for usa,germany and other in yugoslavia they not bombard belgrado and not recognizes kosovo.......
USA,Germany have report with you just for economy, but all do this.

And for Nikola Tesla i know he is Croatian......

Garrick
21-09-13, 23:53
OMG.
This is a OMG because you think yugoslavia is a perfect federation, but is a "s***t" (accept the truth) like albania comunist and ussr.
Albanian go just in greece and italy for find work because just two country are very great.
Yugoslavia a important federation for Albanian? Plis ****** Is just a your dream.
Yugoslavia has never been a federation rich and important.
You say "albanian in kosovo are aumented because from albania go in Kosovo", but this is wrong....family of my father was kick from kosovo by nazi german.
My father told me that many families were exiled and sent to Albania.
Thanks to these families kicked created villages in the north of Albania and passing the south by population.
My father was born in a village called "Xhakaze", this village was one of many created by the Kosovar Albanians.
Try to accept the truth, the fact of the censuses are all wrong.
The federation to which you believe that it is "so strong" is actually only a federation gear and without a spirit of nationality and on lies.
I don't understand why all slavs think that "Slavs are the best in the world"....why, why.........you are an example of nationalism given from birth.........

I think you didn't understand about I wrote. I tried to explain to you that Slavs are not much related to one another as you think, and there is no Slav unity. Every Slavic country is for itself and keep its policy. And you can see despite several Slavic nations in Balkans, Serbs have the best relationships with Greeks who are not Slavic people. I told you that the worst relations are between Croats and Serbs, but these two nations are both Slavic and very close according the Y-DNA.

I don't know what you want to say for WWII. Axis powers created Greater Albania. About 8.000-10.000 Serbs and Montenegrins were victims of terror in that puppet state, you can see that in Wikipedia according Serge Krizman Serbian victims are 10,000. About at least 100,000 Serbs and Montenegrins were refugees in Serbia and many of them after the war never came back to Kosovo.

Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo#cite_note-Istorija-56

"World war II

Most of the territory of today's province was occupied by Italian controlled Greater Albania, massacres of some 10,000 Serbs, ethnic cleansing of about 100 to 250,000 or more occurred.


Nazi Germany estimated that from November 1943 to February 1944, 40 000 Serbs fled Italian-occupied Kosovo for Montenegro and Serbia."


I'm not Serbian nationalist (I have liberal views) and you insult me. And find a single sentence where I insulted Albanians. I not say that Yugoslavia was ideal state but it had good sides, some of them which I explained. Be realistic and compares Yugoslavia and Albania in time of communists and tell which of the two countries is a better place to live.

Albanians collaborators of Axis powers were cruel to the Serbs during World War II. But Serbian and Albanian communists have cooperated in the fight against the occupiers and local collaborators.

If I'd really want to write in negative tones about Albanians I'd underlined topics about organized crime, Muslim fight for domination, violence and terror against the Serbs and Montenegrines, etc. But you can see these are not my topics.

My basic thesis is that armed rebellion is unacceptable as a method for achieving goals. Albanians in AP Kosovo in nineties adopted armed rebellion as a method to achieve goal of separatism from Serbia. I've already said what could be the appropriate way instead of armed rebellion.

Garrick
22-09-13, 00:16
And for Nikola Tesla i know he is Croatian......

No.

Tesla is ethnic Serb, his father was a priest of the Serbian Orthodox Church. Many Serbs lived in Lika during the Austria-Hungaria. Serbs fled Lika 1995.

Tesla biography:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla

Nikola Tesla (Serbian Cyrillic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Cyrillic_language): Никола Тесла; 10 July 1856 – 7 January 1943) was a Serbian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_people)-born and later naturalized American [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla#cite_note-2)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla#cite_note-3) inventor, electrical engineer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_engineer), mechanical engineer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_engineering), physicist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicist), and futurist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurist) best known for his contributions to the design of the modern alternating current (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternating_current) (AC) electricity supply (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_supply) system.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla#cite_note-4)"

Tesla loved Serbia and in Serbia is his legacy. You can see Nikola Tesla Museum in Belgrade.

http://www.tesla-museum.org/meni_en.htm

Americans and Serbs realized monument of Tesla in New York on Long Island. This monument will unveil president of Serbia Tomislav Nikolic, 23 september. You can watch it.

http://www.tanjug.rs/news/99776/nikola-tesla-monument-to-be-unveiled-in-new-york-on-monday.htm

Ike
22-09-13, 00:20
The census about in Kosovo are wrong.
And the census in Albania is a mixture with albanian,greek,italians,slavs and kosovar albanians LOL.
Ike this is a epic fail for you.......

No, the data is consistent with each other and with DNA analysis, and they all show the same results. Accept it.

Garrick
22-09-13, 00:49
Yea, i know how serbia love UK.


History is not only 10-20 last years. And maybe you can't understand, UK in Serbia is probably most popular.

Between UK and Serbia exist relations of the royal families, you heard for the royal family Karadjordjevic.



germany have a good rapports with all country of europe......i don't think just serbia have a good rapport iwth germany.


You didn't understand. I just wrote that relationships between Germany and Serbia are very complex. Yes, for Serbia will be very hard to improve these relations.

But if you want to hear what I think about Germany? Very positive. I appreciate Germany for many things. Germany is true leader for European unity. Germany has very important role for European development, how Europe would not tomorrow lagged behind other countries and regions in the world.

Garrick
22-09-13, 01:04
I think in serbia the television say that "Serbia is big country! serbia have a important rapport with and etc.".
This is a "not nationalism" lol.

Television in Serbia say nothing. If you watch different TV channels in Serbia you can see fun, reality programs, series, movies, etc, or programs of economic situation. No one channel have propaganda nor nationalism. Few people would be interested in that. Why do ypu write about something what don't know.


Not just serbia have a good rapport with arabs,chinese and other.


You didn't understand. I didn't write because of Serbian Albanian relations, but only to refute your wrong thesis about Slavic unity. I wrote that Serbs have closer relations with many non Slavic nations than Slavic. Every Slavic nation is for itself. There is no a federation of all Slavs or Slavic military block. Seems to me that you are burdened with the Slavs (no offense).

Marko94
22-09-13, 20:04
I think you didn't understand about I wrote. I tried to explain to you that Slavs are not much related to one another as you think, and there is no Slav unity. Every Slavic country is for itself and keep its policy. And you can see despite several Slavic nations in Balkans, Serbs have the best relationships with Greeks who are not Slavic people. I told you that the worst relations are between Croats and Serbs, but these two nations are both Slavic and very close according the Y-DNA.

I don't know what you want to say for WWII. Axis powers created Greater Albania. About 8.000-10.000 Serbs and Montenegrins were victims of terror in that puppet state, you can see that in Wikipedia according Serge Krizman Serbian victims are 10,000. About at least 100,000 Serbs and Montenegrins were refugees in Serbia and many of them after the war never came back to Kosovo.

Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo#cite_note-Istorija-56

"World war II

Most of the territory of today's province was occupied by Italian controlled Greater Albania, massacres of some 10,000 Serbs, ethnic cleansing of about 100 to 250,000 or more occurred.


Nazi Germany estimated that from November 1943 to February 1944, 40 000 Serbs fled Italian-occupied Kosovo for Montenegro and Serbia."


I'm not Serbian nationalist (I have liberal views) and you insult me. And find a single sentence where I insulted Albanians. I not say that Yugoslavia was ideal state but it had good sides, some of them which I explained. Be realistic and compares Yugoslavia and Albania in time of communists and tell which of the two countries is a better place to live.

Albanians collaborators of Axis powers were cruel to the Serbs during World War II. But Serbian and Albanian communists have cooperated in the fight against the occupiers and local collaborators.

If I'd really want to write in negative tones about Albanians I'd underlined topics about organized crime, Muslim fight for domination, violence and terror against the Serbs and Montenegrines, etc. But you can see these are not my topics.

My basic thesis is that armed rebellion is unacceptable as a method for achieving goals. Albanians in AP Kosovo in nineties adopted armed rebellion as a method to achieve goal of separatism from Serbia. I've already said what could be the appropriate way instead of armed rebellion.

LOL.
Are you a person who makes utopias.
In the previous post says that "the yugoslavia helped us" and that "you have good relations between ethnic groups of yugoslavia" and now you say that "the relationship between Serbia and Croatia is not good?" this is utopia.

The Axis powers have never created the great albania.
They have only given you the command Albanians, that's all.
What has been done to you strangely Serbian is written, however the fact that the Albanians not.
There is no mention of how many Albanians were expelled from Kosovo, however, thanks to the Y-DNA seems that Kosovo is the source of the e-v13, and in northern Albania have very many people e-v13.
Likely that the Albanians of north are from the Kosovo?
The north of Albania was sparsely populated and is now more populated than the south and center.
But now it is very populated and no one know how to explain.

You are not nationalist Serbs? But when you speak of Serbia seems to be one was fabulous.
Look at your answers trusted six nationalistic and you do not realize it.
I'm not offended serbia, but I have offended and criticized the yugoslavia, Communists and Slav nationalism.
You kept saying that Kosovo Albanians are immigrants when in fact it is the opposite.
For me, you can say what you want about Albania or Albanians.

Look communists were worse than the Nazis.
Hitler in his speech congratulated Stalin.
Do you know why? Did you know that what we call the great enemies of the axis are worse than the Nazis? I do not think so.

Maybe you do not know, but in Italy there are nearly 500,000 Albanians.
Of these, 96% are Roman Catholics (including my father).
You write all about albania and albanian, who stop you?

Marko94
22-09-13, 20:09
No.

Tesla is ethnic Serb, his father was a priest of the Serbian Orthodox Church. Many Serbs lived in Lika during the Austria-Hungaria. Serbs fled Lika 1995.

Tesla biography:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla

Nikola Tesla (Serbian Cyrillic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Cyrillic_language): Никола Тесла; 10 July 1856 – 7 January 1943) was a Serbian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_people)-born and later naturalized American [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla#cite_note-2)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla#cite_note-3) inventor, electrical engineer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_engineer), mechanical engineer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_engineering), physicist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicist), and futurist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurist) best known for his contributions to the design of the modern alternating current (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternating_current) (AC) electricity supply (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_supply) system.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla#cite_note-4)"

Tesla loved Serbia and in Serbia is his legacy. You can see Nikola Tesla Museum in Belgrade.

http://www.tesla-museum.org/meni_en.htm

Americans and Serbs realized monument of Tesla in New York on Long Island. This monument will unveil president of Serbia Tomislav Nikolic, 23 september. You can watch it.

http://www.tanjug.rs/news/99776/nikola-tesla-monument-to-be-unveiled-in-new-york-on-monday.htm

The history of Tesla is still unknown.
It 's incredible, because he it was considered Croatian and with a letter (also this is a dispute) he warite "I have origin serbs".
Now say that?
Tesla don't was a genius, he just brought forward the ideas of edison.

Garrick
22-09-13, 21:38
LOL.
Are you a person who makes utopias.
In the previous post says that "the yugoslavia helped us" and that "you have good relations between ethnic groups of yugoslavia" and now you say that "the relationship between Serbia and Croatia is not good?" this is utopia.

The Axis powers have never created the great albania.
They have only given you the command Albanians, that's all.
What has been done to you strangely Serbian is written, however the fact that the Albanians not.
There is no mention of how many Albanians were expelled from Kosovo, however, thanks to the Y-DNA seems that Kosovo is the source of the e-v13, and in northern Albania have very many people e-v13.
Likely that the Albanians of north are from the Kosovo?
The north of Albania was sparsely populated and is now more populated than the south and center.
But now it is very populated and no one know how to explain.

You are not nationalist Serbs? But when you speak of Serbia seems to be one was fabulous.
Look at your answers trusted six nationalistic and you do not realize it.
I'm not offended serbia, but I have offended and criticized the yugoslavia, Communists and Slav nationalism.
You kept saying that Kosovo Albanians are immigrants when in fact it is the opposite.
For me, you can say what you want about Albania or Albanians.

Look communists were worse than the Nazis.
Hitler in his speech congratulated Stalin.
Do you know why? Did you know that what we call the great enemies of the axis are worse than the Nazis? I do not think so.

Maybe you do not know, but in Italy there are nearly 500,000 Albanians.
Of these, 96% are Roman Catholics (including my father).
You write all about albania and albanian, who stop you?

Good, talk returns to normal.

About Great Albania:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Albania

You can see and Greater Albania in WWII.

"Between May 1941 and September 1943, Benito Mussolini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini) placed nearly all the land inhabited by ethnic Albanians under the jurisdiction of an Albanian quisling government. That included the region of Kosovo, parts of the Republic of Macedonia and some small border areas of Montenegro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegro). In Chameria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chameria) an Albanian high commissioner, Xhemil Dino (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xhemil_Dino), was appointed by the Italians; but the area remained under the control of the Italian military command in Athens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athens) and so technically remained a region of Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece)."

Albanian communists were fighting against Albanian collaborators Axis powers, and their role in World War Two is positive. Problem with Albanian communists started 1948 when they supported Stalin against Tito.

I'm not communist, I can write books about communist bad things. But it is not only black, an communists had good results, specifically in Yugoslavia.

I'm sad about today's relations between Croats and Serbs (politicians often try to do something but people are estranged). In time of Yugoslavia relationships were much much better, politics of brotherhood and unity gave results.

I know about Italian Albanians. And I personally love Italy very much.

It is normal that I will write about Albanians (and Serbs) if Kosovo is thread. If thread is Slovenia I would write about Slovenes. And you can notice I had no intention to write this thread. It has been extracted from topic of Syria. Western politicians were at one time compared Syria and Kosovo and with good reason. Syria is very complex as Kosovo is very complex. Quick solution for Syria would be mistake, as for Kosovo was mistake.

I respect all peoples. But if you can notice for me armed rebellion is not acceptable as method of fights. Albanians could realize their rights in institutions of system, it could be much better.

I wrote about documented 30,000 Albanians who came in Serbia after 1948 (in fifties), and there are evidence that their number is to 75.000. This has contributed demographic in favor of Albanians but not so much. And they had very poor conditions in Albania, you've written that in Albania communism was like North Korea.

You can see, again there are plans in the West for link Kosovo and Serbia and Balkan media are saying about the initiative to bind four other countries: Montenegro, Bosnia, Albania and Macedonia. Someone called this Yugoslavia 4.0. But for me it is logical. Balkan economies have collapsed and it is possible that such initiative bears fruit.

Garrick
22-09-13, 22:09
The history of Tesla is still unknown.
It 's incredible, because he it was considered Croatian and with a letter (also this is a dispute) he warite "I have origin serbs".
Now say that?
Tesla don't was a genius, he just brought forward the ideas of edison.

Tesla was Serb, his father was priest of Serbian Orthodox Church, he emphasized his Serbian origin, he wrote in Cyrillic, he gave much of his legacy to Serbia, but I can say he belonged to humanity. Many of his inventions have not been understood in his time, but today may have application. Of course and Edison is great inventor, Edison was the entrepreneur too, and someone who is commercially used the inventions. But Tesla is something different, tomorrow you can watch unveiling of the monument of Nikola Tesla in Long Island in New York, on the initiative Americans and Serbs, and where participant is President of Serbia Mr. Nikolic.

Two pictures from New York:

http://www.b92.net/news/pics/2013/09/23/1221512349523ffa1de331e751441590_640x420.jpg


http://www.b92.net/news/pics/2013/09/23/13827596385240779584aa2085611830_v4_big.JPG

President of Serbia in unveiling of the monument of Nikola Tesla

It is enough this is not topic. Tesla is a unique universal genius who has advanced mankind and he belongs to humanity.

Marko94
24-09-13, 19:52
Good, talk returns to normal.

About Great Albania:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Albania

You can see and Greater Albania in WWII.

"Between May 1941 and September 1943, Benito Mussolini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini) placed nearly all the land inhabited by ethnic Albanians under the jurisdiction of an Albanian quisling government. That included the region of Kosovo, parts of the Republic of Macedonia and some small border areas of Montenegro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegro). In Chameria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chameria) an Albanian high commissioner, Xhemil Dino (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xhemil_Dino), was appointed by the Italians; but the area remained under the control of the Italian military command in Athens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athens) and so technically remained a region of Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece)."




In this video explains very well how the Nazis behaved.
In this video, as well as explaining fascism, also explains assassinations and massacres.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgV3k7L47F4
In youtube you can find 5 video about history of albania.
I think in this video you can see what did the fascists.
In this video you can watch (i'm not sure 100%) what did fasicst, school fascist, the census of population and census literacy and census of massacre and kill.



Albanian communists were fighting against Albanian collaborators Axis powers, and their role in World War Two is positive. Problem with Albanian communists started 1948 when they supported Stalin against Tito.

Albanian comunist like comunist yugoslavs fighting for take a controll of country, not for release......




I'm not communist, I can write books about communist bad things. But it is not only black, an communists had good results, specifically in Yugoslavia.


The Italy there is a saying.
"Guardiamo il risultato" in english 'We only watch the results. "
Ok, look at the results after yugoslavia .........



I'm sad about today's relations between Croats and Serbs (politicians often try to do something but people are estranged). In time of Yugoslavia relationships were much much better, politics of brotherhood and unity gave results.


It is the fault of the Russians.
If you do not spread to russia with the slav nationalism, certainly all the Balkan countries (except Bulgaria) would become colonies.
After the liberation of the colonies would be friends.



I know about Italian Albanians. And I personally love Italy very much.

Us love you.



It is normal that I will write about Albanians (and Serbs) if Kosovo is thread. If thread is Slovenia I would write about Slovenes. And you can notice I had no intention to write this thread. It has been extracted from topic of Syria. Western politicians were at one time compared Syria and Kosovo and with good reason. Syria is very complex as Kosovo is very complex. Quick solution for Syria would be mistake, as for Kosovo was mistake.

But in fact i don't stop you, nobody stop you.
You can say all about albanian and albanians kosovar.





I respect all peoples. But if you can notice for me armed rebellion is not acceptable as method of fights. Albanians could realize their rights in institutions of system, it could be much better.


As long as one of you does not give an apology will never hate.
No matter who is the first, but at least it will be the first step.






I wrote about documented 30,000 Albanians who came in Serbia after 1948 (in fifties), and there are evidence that their number is to 75.000. This has contributed demographic in favor of Albanians but not so much. And they had very poor conditions in Albania, you've written that in Albania communism was like North Korea.

Ok, show the source.



You can see, again there are plans in the West for link Kosovo and Serbia and Balkan media are saying about the initiative to bind four other countries: Montenegro, Bosnia, Albania and Macedonia. Someone called this Yugoslavia 4.0. But for me it is logical. Balkan economies have collapsed and it is possible that such initiative bears fruit.
For economy is normal, south europe is very is a disaster.
In fact see spain,italy,greece,bulgaria,croatia,fyrom and other, this country don't have a good econmy.
Jugoslavia (according to wikipedia) is the term used for "south slavs".
Albanian don't are a ethnic group slav.
Maybe form a Balkan League, but I think it's impossible.
This union is just a dream of the european banks.

Marko94
24-09-13, 20:03
Tesla was Serb, his father was priest of Serbian Orthodox Church, he emphasized his Serbian origin, he wrote in Cyrillic, he gave much of his legacy to Serbia, but I can say he belonged to humanity. Many of his inventions have not been understood in his time, but today may have application. Of course and Edison is great inventor, Edison was the entrepreneur too, and someone who is commercially used the inventions. But Tesla is something different, tomorrow you can watch unveiling of the monument of Nikola Tesla in Long Island in New York, on the initiative Americans and Serbs, and where participant is President of Serbia Mr. Nikolic.

Two pictures from New York:

http://www.b92.net/news/pics/2013/09/23/1221512349523ffa1de331e751441590_640x420.jpg


http://www.b92.net/news/pics/2013/09/23/13827596385240779584aa2085611830_v4_big.JPG

President of Serbia in unveiling of the monument of Nikola Tesla

It is enough this is not topic. Tesla is a unique universal genius who has advanced mankind and he belongs to humanity.

Ok, ok.
(according to usa sources) is always considered Croatian becuase he said to edison (if i'm not mistaken).
Then he sent him a letter in which he wrote that he was Serbian.
But these two things are in conflict, looking a bit 'on the internet I see that the Croats say "he's Croatian" and Serbs "he is Serbia."
Whatever the truth is you could do a test on the y-dna.


and a ultime things.
I would like to know if in Serbia and the Balkan countries are talking about the nationality of Tito.
Because in recent days I have heard a news very interesting.
According to CIA Tito was Russian and not croatian.
I wanted to know if this is talked in balkan?

Garrick
25-09-13, 02:20
In this video explains very well how the Nazis behaved.
In this video, as well as explaining fascism, also explains assassinations and massacres.
I think in this video you can see what did the fascists.

But, I didn't write about that. I wrote historical facts that 8000-10000 Serbs and Montenegrins were massacred in Greater Albania, and at least 100.000 refugees fled from Greater Albania to occupated Serbia.

You heard for Bali Kombetar. It was Albanian fasictics organization.



It is the fault of the Russians.
If you do not spread to russia with the slav nationalism, certainly all the Balkan countries (except Bulgaria) would become colonies.
After the liberation of the colonies would be friends.


Russians have nothing to do with it.

But these are specific Croatian Serbian quarrels.

For example, religion is one of strong factors, Croats are Catholics, Serbs are mostly Orthodox. Serbs have Serbian Orthodox church.



Ok, show the source.


Yugoslav and Serbian historic facts. But it is in Serbian/Croatian. If I find in English I will give link.



For economy is normal, south europe is very is a disaster.
In fact see spain,italy,greece,bulgaria,croatia,fyrom and other, this country don't have a good econmy.
Jugoslavia (according to wikipedia) is the term used for "south slavs".
Albanian don't are a ethnic group slav.
Maybe form a Balkan League, but I think it's impossible.
This union is just a dream of the european banks.

Why today, despite the high birth rate, is less Albanians in Balkans than 20 years ago?

Response is: emigration. Economy Albania is bad, but for Kosovo is worse. And Albanians have become economic migrants in countries of west Europe and north America.

AP Kosovo in Serbia had much better results than Albania. But it was the time when big funds destined for Kosovo. Then AP Kosovo Albanians did not move to west Europe and north America as today.

A lot of firms from Serbia invested in province Kosovo and opened their factories and facilities. Serbia assets will be on the agenda in negotiations.

Initiative that Kosovo connect with Serbia and three other YU republics, and Albania (Yugoslavia 4.0) is intention to revive the region's economic. Serbia can be an engine of growth, and again have the funds for Kosovo, but it needs time because Serbian industry is suffered due to hard international sanctions, and even more during the NATO bombing. Many Serbian industrial capacities and infrastructure were targeted and destroyed.

But idea Yugoslavia 4.0 (without Slovenia and Croatia and with Albania) is logical for me. Such projects can contribute to connecting and strengthening devasted Balkan region.


Ok, ok.
(according to usa sources) is always considered Croatian becuase he said to edison (if i'm not mistaken).
Then he sent him a letter in which he wrote that he was Serbian.
But these two things are in conflict, looking a bit 'on the internet I see that the Croats say "he's Croatian" and Serbs "he is Serbia."
Whatever the truth is you could do a test on the y-dna.


Tesla is Serb. Croats are not Serbian orthodox. Or you think that Serbian Orthodox church is Croatian? What confuses you? Yes, he was born in Austria-Hungaria. Area in which he lived was mostly Serbian. Yes today is Croatia, and there are no Serbs more. (You can read what happened with Serbs in Smiljan, Tesla's birthplace, in time of World War Two if you are interested. And last Serbs left Lika 1995.)

The famous Archimedes from Syracuse was Greek. Yes Syracuse is today in Italy. But Archimedes is no Italian.

Marko94
01-10-13, 19:12
But, I didn't write about that. I wrote historical facts that 8000-10000 Serbs and Montenegrins were massacred in Greater Albania, and at least 100.000 refugees fled from Greater Albania to occupated Serbia.

You heard for Bali Kombetar. It was Albanian fasictics organization.



Not only the Serbs were expelled.
Many Kosovo Albanians were driven out and filled the north of Albania.

No, i don't know who are he.






Russians have nothing to do with it.

But these are specific Croatian Serbian quarrels.

For example, religion is one of strong factors, Croats are Catholics, Serbs are mostly Orthodox. Serbs have Serbian Orthodox church.

That is another matter.





Yugoslav and Serbian historic facts. But it is in Serbian/Croatian. If I find in English I will give link.

Many of the things that you know are false.
As the falsity of the genocide of Serbian children.
The your heads are full of falsehoods.



Who say to me is right about that?

Why today, despite the high birth rate, is less Albanians in Balkans than 20 years ago?

Response is: emigration. Economy Albania is bad, but for Kosovo is worse. And Albanians have become economic migrants in countries of west Europe and north America.

AP Kosovo in Serbia had much better results than Albania. But it was the time when big funds destined for Kosovo. Then AP Kosovo Albanians did not move to west Europe and north America as today.

A lot of firms from Serbia invested in province Kosovo and opened their factories and facilities. Serbia assets will be on the agenda in negotiations.

Initiative that Kosovo connect with Serbia and three other YU republics, and Albania (Yugoslavia 4.0) is intention to revive the region's economic. Serbia can be an engine of growth, and again have the funds for Kosovo, but it needs time because Serbian industry is suffered due to hard international sanctions, and even more during the NATO bombing. Many Serbian industrial capacities and infrastructure were targeted and destroyed.

But idea Yugoslavia 4.0 (without Slovenia and Croatia and with Albania) is logical for me. Such projects can contribute to connecting and strengthening devasted Balkan region.


Ahaha, very funny.
You know why albanian emigrants to other country?
Is simple.
The problem are Serbia and Poland.
The Serbia and Poland are very a problem for country of east europe because of economic conditions and salaries.
You know the salieries of serbians? Is 150 euro monthly.
This is the salaries of normal serbins.
This is not good, because this increases the relocation.
From 2010 to 2013 the 60% of entrepreneurs have gone in serbia.Because wages are the lowest in Europe (west and east europe).
Serbia and Poland are big problems and do go wrong the other countries.
In Albania the normal salary is around 400 euro as opposed to serbia and poland ranging from 150 euro up to 300 euro is better to invest in Poland and Serbia.
What does that mean? Obviously this reduces the work.
No, Serbia never be a motor of economy.
If other country united to you would only hurt.



Tesla is Serb. Croats are not Serbian orthodox. Or you think that Serbian Orthodox church is Croatian? What confuses you? Yes, he was born in Austria-Hungaria. Area in which he lived was mostly Serbian. Yes today is Croatia, and there are no Serbs more. (You can read what happened with Serbs in Smiljan, Tesla's birthplace, in time of World War Two if you are interested. And last Serbs left Lika 1995.)

The famous Archimedes from Syracuse was Greek. Yes Syracuse is today in Italy. But Archimedes is no Italian.


Ok Ok.

Ike
01-10-13, 19:20
Ahaha, very funny.



I wonder what would have been of my life had Albania joined Yugoslavia in 1945. It could possibly only have been better. In a more sane world, Albanians would fight for their right to join Serbia, and Serbs would fight to keep Albanians at bay, but we don’t live in a sane world.In 1990 Kosovo had a per capita GDP three times higher than Albania. Back then I was wondering how long will it take for tables to turn. It didn’t take really long, just a few short years. And it is not like Albania is an economic miracle. They will keep blaming war, but war damaged Serbia much more than it damaged Kosovo, says Dr. Toli

http://illyria.proboards.com/thread/36391/dr-toli-speaks-alb-academic

kamani
01-10-13, 22:00
I wonder what would have been of my life had Albania joined Yugoslavia in 1945.

E.Hoxha stopped that just in time by playing on the animosity between Tito and Russia. Needless to say, even if it worked, it would have been a complete disaster for everyone.

Marko94
02-10-13, 13:23
I wonder what would have been of my life had Albania joined Yugoslavia in 1945. It could possibly only have been better. In a more sane world, Albanians would fight for their right to join Serbia, and Serbs would fight to keep Albanians at bay, but we don’t live in a sane world.In 1990 Kosovo had a per capita GDP three times higher than Albania. Back then I was wondering how long will it take for tables to turn. It didn’t take really long, just a few short years. And it is not like Albania is an economic miracle. They will keep blaming war, but war damaged Serbia much more than it damaged Kosovo, says Dr. Toli

http://illyria.proboards.com/thread/36391/dr-toli-speaks-alb-academic

Mhhhh, you know comunism albanian don't is same of jugoslavia?
You know jugoslavia is a federation compose by "6" country?
You know comunism albania was a very terrible and is like of noth korea?
And pil of albania is 7.848 and kosovo is 3.453.....i think the pil of albania is high or no??
I'm srry, in Serbia the number 3 is under 7.....
Go to study why montenegro and fyrom divide with Serbia.......
Serbia and serbians are like china and chinese.
low labor costs+no right for workers+low taxe=Serbia.
Thx for steal work to us.

Garrick
02-10-13, 20:14
You know the salieries of serbians? Is 150 euro monthly.
This is the salaries of normal serbins.
This is not good, because this increases the relocation.
From 2010 to 2013 the 60% of entrepreneurs have gone in serbia.Because wages are the lowest in Europe (west and east europe).
Serbia and Poland are big problems and do go wrong the other countries.


Why do you talk about things that you didn't check?
If you want accurate data you can see list of countries by GDP (PPP).
Serbia today certainly is not in great shape, but even today it is a lot better than Albania.
Two key reasons for delay of Serbian economy are: sanctions imposed at the beginning of the nineties and many industrial facilities are destroyed in the NATO bombing (honestly I don't know why industry and infrastructure were targets).
Serbia was industrial country, with developed agriculture too, with very good technically educated population, industry now beginning to recover with new investments and construction of new facilities.
And I do not understand why you put Poland in this story.
Perhaps because Poland has a solid industry, I don't know if you against Serbia and Poland as industrial countries or Slavic countries.

Ike
02-10-13, 20:39
E.Hoxha stopped that just in time by playing on the animosity between Tito and Russia. Needless to say, even if it worked, it would have been a complete disaster for everyone.

Yes, Hoxha was too egoistic to exploit that idea.




Thx for steal work to us.

What are you talking about? You're Italian or not?

Marko94
03-10-13, 17:21
Why do you talk about things that you didn't check?
If you want accurate data you can see list of countries by GDP (PPP).
Serbia today certainly is not in great shape, but even today it is a lot better than Albania.
Two key reasons for delay of Serbian economy are: sanctions imposed at the beginning of the nineties and many industrial facilities are destroyed in the NATO bombing (honestly I don't know why industry and infrastructure were targets).
Serbia was industrial country, with developed agriculture too, with very good technically educated population, industry now beginning to recover with new investments and construction of new facilities.
And I do not understand why you put Poland in this story.
Perhaps because Poland has a solid industry, I don't know if you against Serbia and Poland as industrial countries or Slavic countries.



I speak for steal work..........in Serbia the cost of work is around 150 euro......
The increase of GPD in Serbia and Poland is thanks to the entrepreneurs who make the relocation.I think that you do not know how the relocation.
I'll explain.
"They close factories in Italy and opened in Serbia because the cost of workers is around 150 euro."
Understand?
The GDP is the "Gross Domestic Product".
Here is a brief explanation since it seems like you do not know anything or pretend not to know.




There is talk of Product because GDP measures the value of final goods produced, Indoor because the definition and the calculation of GDP takes into account the value of final goods and services produced within a given country (regardless of the nationality of those who produce them )


Summary.
In Italy, close factories and GDP falls.
Why?
Why do entrepreneurs close their factories and opened in Serbia because the cost of workers is around 150 euro.
In Italy the GDP falls and in Serbia's GDP rises.
That's it, I do not understand why you come to talk about things no sense.


Yes, Hoxha was too egoistic to exploit that idea.




What are you talking about? You're Italian or not?

Talking abount? I don't understand you.
I just say to you "In Italy the entrepreneurs closed the factory and reduce work. Why? Because they open in Serbia.
Why open in Serbia? Becuase the coast of worker are around 150 euro."
Fiat,Calze Donne, golden lady and ecc are italian if you don't know that............
Again, thx for steal work to us.

Ike
03-10-13, 17:59
This is Kosovo thread. What for did you pull out Italian-Serbian economic relationships...

Garrick
04-10-13, 00:04
I speak for steal work..........in Serbia the cost of work is around 150 euro......
The increase of GPD in Serbia and Poland is thanks to the entrepreneurs who make the relocation.I think that you do not know how the relocation.
I'll explain.
"They close factories in Italy and opened in Serbia because the cost of workers is around 150 euro."
Understand?
The GDP is the "Gross Domestic Product".
Here is a brief explanation since it seems like you do not know anything or pretend not to know.




There is talk of Product because GDP measures the value of final goods produced, Indoor because the definition and the calculation of GDP takes into account the value of final goods and services produced within a given country (regardless of the nationality of those who produce them )


Summary.
In Italy, close factories and GDP falls.
Why?
Why do entrepreneurs close their factories and opened in Serbia because the cost of workers is around 150 euro.
In Italy the GDP falls and in Serbia's GDP rises.
That's it, I do not understand why you come to talk about things no sense.



Talking abount? I don't understand you.
I just say to you "In Italy the entrepreneurs closed the factory and reduce work. Why? Because they open in Serbia.
Why open in Serbia? Becuase the coast of worker are around 150 euro."
Fiat,Calze Donne, golden lady and ecc are italian if you don't know that............
Again, thx for steal work to us.

In Serbia cost of work is not 150 Euro. I tried to explain but you continue.

I mentoined GDP (PPP) per capita to compare among countries because these data are quite reliable.

PPP: purchasing power parity

The data about salaries are unreliable, see you talking about the wrong salary in Serbia and possible in Poland.

And salaries among countries are not good to compare.

For example if someone has salary in Serbia 700 euros and his colleague in another country 900 euros, but in that country all is more expensive then the question is who is in a better position.

And topic here are not salaries in Serbia or Poland.

Marko94
04-10-13, 12:27
This is Kosovo thread. What for did you pull out Italian-Serbian economic relationships...
garrick was talking about Serbian economy, and more.
In my presence you do not speak the Serbian economy because while GDP grows by you (and increases the work) that we work decreases and the GDP goes down.

Marko94
04-10-13, 14:26
In Serbia cost of work is not 150 Euro. I tried to explain but you continue.

I mentoined GDP (PPP) per capita to compare among countries because these data are quite reliable.

PPP: purchasing power parity

The data about salaries are unreliable, see you talking about the wrong salary in Serbia and possible in Poland.

And salaries among countries are not good to compare.

For example if someone has salary in Serbia 700 euros and his colleague in another country 900 euros, but in that country all is more expensive then the question is who is in a better position.

And topic here are not salaries in Serbia or Poland.

Honestly, are you kidding me?
Your answer me unless and put on a couple of forums.
I want to see the reactions of many of my countrymen.
Probably many of them would shoot.
The wages in Italy and Spain (which are the lowest in Western Europe) are around 900 \ 1,000 euro.
The wages in Eastern Europe ranging from 150 up to 800.
The Czech Republic (in Eastern Europe) has the highest salary (€ 800).
the country with the highest salary (between the states of ex-Yugoslavia) is the slovenia with 600 euro (they use the euro and there is no need for conversion)
Then there's Kosovo with 400 \ 500 EUR (they use the euro andnot there is no need for any conversion).
Then there is the croatia and their salaries are around 400 \ 500 Euros (such as Kosovo).
Serbia, FYROM and Bosnia have salaries ranging from 150 euro up to 300 euro.
Your ignorance and falsehood about salaries makes me angry ......
I do not know if you are nationalist or not, but who told you this on salaries in Serbia is a falsehood.
Remember that you come from Serbia and is a poor country (like the other countries of Eastern Europe).
I think you know the difference between the countries of the first world, second world and third world?

Garrick
04-10-13, 17:14
Honestly, are you kidding me?
Your answer me unless and put on a couple of forums.
I want to see the reactions of many of my countrymen.
Probably many of them would shoot.
The wages in Italy and Spain (which are the lowest in Western Europe) are around 900 \ 1,000 euro.
The wages in Eastern Europe ranging from 150 up to 800.
The Czech Republic (in Eastern Europe) has the highest salary (€ 800).
the country with the highest salary (between the states of ex-Yugoslavia) is the slovenia with 600 euro (they use the euro and there is no need for conversion)
Then there's Kosovo with 400 \ 500 EUR (they use the euro andnot there is no need for any conversion).
Then there is the croatia and their salaries are around 400 \ 500 Euros (such as Kosovo).
Serbia, FYROM and Bosnia have salaries ranging from 150 euro up to 300 euro.
Your ignorance and falsehood about salaries makes me angry ......
I do not know if you are nationalist or not, but who told you this on salaries in Serbia is a falsehood.
Remember that you come from Serbia and is a poor country (like the other countries of Eastern Europe).
I think you know the difference between the countries of the first world, second world and third world?

Today is a big crisis and no country is easily, but I think you underestimate whole east Europe.

In Serbia minimum wage is higher than 150 euros, and it is probably everywhere in east Europe.

Kosovo is the poorest in Europe, and these are the facts. Many, many Albanians from Kosovo today are in west Europe, USA or Canada. Kosovo had the fates rates of growth at the time of Yugoslav and Serbian funds. I don't know if Europe now give funds, but Serbia consistently pay Kosovo debt. And a lot of properties and assets of Serbian companies remained in Kosovo.

GDP (PPP) per capita is good indicator of economic development. of course one indicator can not be perfect, with more indicators can be achieved better picture.

Emigration rate is another indicator. And for Albania emigration rate is much higher than for Serbia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migration_rate

No data for Kosovo but Kosovo has an even greater emigration rate from Albania.

Marko94
04-10-13, 20:33
Today is a big crisis and no country is easily, but I think you underestimate whole east Europe.

In Serbia minimum wage is higher than 150 euros, and it is probably everywhere in east Europe.

Kosovo is the poorest in Europe, and these are the facts. Many, many Albanians from Kosovo today are in west Europe, USA or Canada. Kosovo had the fates rates of growth at the time of Yugoslav and Serbian funds. I don't know if Europe now give funds, but Serbia consistently pay Kosovo debt. And a lot of properties and assets of Serbian companies remained in Kosovo.

GDP (PPP) per capita is good indicator of economic development. of course one indicator can not be perfect, with more indicators can be achieved better picture.

Emigration rate is another indicator. And for Albania emigration rate is much higher than for Serbia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migration_rate

No data for Kosovo but Kosovo has an even greater emigration rate from Albania.

The wages in Eastern Europe ranging from 150 euro up to 800 euro .
The workers of the golden lady and they are paid 150 euro 11 hours of work.
The workers of FIAT (are 3,000 worker) are paid about 280 euro and also work them 11 hours.
What I mean is that we work to give to you .
Only in the past 3 years almost 60 % of the entrepreneurs have gone into Poland and Serbia because the salary ranges from 150 euro up to 350 euro (maximum).
Why should you ? Why have the lowest salaries in europe and also because you do not have rights at work .
Kosovo is a poor state because unemployment is around 45 %, but the salaries they are on the 400 \ 500 EUR .
So the cost of living in Kosovo is much higher than that of Serbia, FYROM and Bosnia .
Why not open it in Albania , Ukraine or Russia or another country ?
Because even them the salaries ranging from 350 euro up to 750 euro .
So it would be a disadvantage.
The salaries depend on the cost of living.
Plus the cost of living and the country is the poor, the wages will be low.
In Italy you can not live with a salary of 150 Euros as in the rest of western europe.

The immigrations is caused by work.
No work, aumented emigration.

Ike
04-10-13, 22:15
Fiat Serbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Automobili_Srbija) was opened in 1955. What does it have to do with Kosovo and salaries in Albania and Ukraine?

Garrick
04-10-13, 22:37
The wages in Eastern Europe ranging from 150 euro up to 800 euro .
The workers of the golden lady and they are paid 150 euro 11 hours of work.
The workers of FIAT (are 3,000 worker) are paid about 280 euro and also work them 11 hours.
What I mean is that we work to give to you .
Only in the past 3 years almost 60 % of the entrepreneurs have gone into Poland and Serbia because the salary ranges from 150 euro up to 350 euro (maximum).
Why should you ? Why have the lowest salaries in europe and also because you do not have rights at work .
Kosovo is a poor state because unemployment is around 45 %, but the salaries they are on the 400 \ 500 EUR .
So the cost of living in Kosovo is much higher than that of Serbia, FYROM and Bosnia .
Why not open it in Albania , Ukraine or Russia or another country ?
Because even them the salaries ranging from 350 euro up to 750 euro .
So it would be a disadvantage.
The salaries depend on the cost of living.
Plus the cost of living and the country is the poor, the wages will be low.
In Italy you can not live with a salary of 150 Euros as in the rest of western europe.

The immigrations is caused by work.
No work, aumented emigration.

I don't know what confuses you, but in Serbia wages are higher than 150 euros.

Average salaries Balkans (with Wikipedia):

Serbia $479
Bulgaria (EU) $414
Romania (EU) $485
Macedonia $458
Albania $264
Montenegro $618

You can see Serbia is similar as Romania.

But Albania is last, way behind Bulgaria.

Italian and other Europeans firms come in Serbia because conditions for investors are favorable and Serbian workers are good educated. This year Serbian economy will have growth.

Prices in Serbia are not high, especially food prices, as Serbia has good agriculture and food industry.

What is not good in Serbian economy is industrial production. Before two and more decades ago this production was much higher. Serbia was industrial country. Good news is that finally, industrial production began to grow significantly but it will need years to be surpassed production in 1989.

Serbia also needs to improve infrastructure and eradicate corruption. All Balkans countries have trouble with corruption.

Serbian industry began to decline due to sanctions, and dropped to the lowest level due to NATO bombing. Then destroyed and infrastructure. Quickly destroyed but recover can take years and years.

I say, fast solutions that are committed some western decision makers, mainly are the worst solutions. It is learned in the painful example of Serbia, therefore careful approach for Syria definitely seems to be better and can lead to sustainable solution.

Marko94
06-10-13, 13:51
Fiat Serbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Automobili_Srbija) was opened in 1955. What does it have to do with Kosovo and salaries in Albania and Ukraine?

when he went into operation?
In 2008\2009.

That was just in comparison.
The fiat (not only them) have decided to open factories in Serbia and Poland because the salaries are low compared to other countries of Eastern Europe.



I don't know what confuses you, but in Serbia wages are higher than 150 euros.

Average salaries Balkans (with Wikipedia):

Serbia $479
Bulgaria (EU) $414
Romania (EU) $485
Macedonia $458
Albania $264
Montenegro $618

You can see Serbia is similar as Romania.

But Albania is last, way behind Bulgaria.

Italian and other Europeans firms come in Serbia because conditions for investors are favorable and Serbian workers are good educated. This year Serbian economy will have growth.

Prices in Serbia are not high, especially food prices, as Serbia has good agriculture and food industry.

What is not good in Serbian economy is industrial production. Before two and more decades ago this production was much higher. Serbia was industrial country. Good news is that finally, industrial production began to grow significantly but it will need years to be surpassed production in 1989.

Serbia also needs to improve infrastructure and eradicate corruption. All Balkans countries have trouble with corruption.

Serbian industry began to decline due to sanctions, and dropped to the lowest level due to NATO bombing. Then destroyed and infrastructure. Quickly destroyed but recover can take years and years.

I say, fast solutions that are committed some western decision makers, mainly are the worst solutions. It is learned in the painful example of Serbia, therefore careful approach for Syria definitely seems to be better and can lead to sustainable solution.

You use google translate.
http://www.frontediliberazionedaibanchieri.it/article-la-menzogna-della-globalizzazione-fiat-e-i-306-euro-di-stipendio-118202305.html
But you have say the normal salary is 700.....now 479.
Pleas show a link.
I can't find, i just find that but...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_average_salary

Ike
06-10-13, 15:00
Fiat Serbia was opened in 1955. What does it have to do with Kosovo and salaries in Albania and Ukraine?


when he went into operation?
In 2008\2009.

You're assuming that it took 53 years for Italians to put one facility into operation? :grin: What organizational geniuses, those Italians...
And the design! OMG, is so retro that it's stunning. New Fiat 600 from Serbia will break all the records :)

http://www.glassrbije.org/kultura/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/field/slike/fica_0.jpg
http://www.kragujevac.co.rs/wp-content/uploads/Fica1.jpg

Garrick
06-10-13, 20:21
But you have say the normal salary is 700.....now 479.


I gave average salaries for Balkans countries.

I didn't say that average salary in Serbia is 700 euros. No.

I said that someone who have salary 700 euros in Serbia maybe has more than his/her colleague who has 900 euros in another country, because costs of living in Serbia are less than in most European countries.

One reason is because Serbia has relatively developed agriculture and it less imports foodstuffs.

Summary again:

Average wages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_net_average_ wage

Serbia $479
Bulgaria (EU) $414
Romania (EU) $485
Macedonia $458
Albania $264
Montenegro $618.

And you can see average wages in Serbia are about three times more than you claimed.

Marko94
07-10-13, 16:46
Fiat Serbia was opened in 1955. What does it have to do with Kosovo and salaries in Albania and Ukraine?



You're assuming that it took 53 years for Italians to put one facility into operation? :grin: What organizational geniuses, those Italians...
And the design! OMG, is so retro that it's stunning. New Fiat 600 from Serbia will break all the records :)

http://www.glassrbije.org/kultura/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/field/slike/fica_0.jpg
http://www.kragujevac.co.rs/wp-content/uploads/Fica1.jpg

Fiat can close it to reopen the factory ......... I know that in 2008 they opened two factories closed (closed in the past) and built a new factory to Kragujeva.
I know this.
And then in between these factories we work 3,000 workers Serbs.
What I do know is this, look at the fact that in Italy the factories in Serbia is not pleasant ......... because while we have 2 factories closed and one is suspended (mirabello) but taking other workers in Serbia .

Marko94
07-10-13, 16:52
I gave average salaries for Balkans countries.

I didn't say that average salary in Serbia is 700 euros. No.

I said that someone who have salary 700 euros in Serbia maybe has more than his/her colleague who has 900 euros in another country, because costs of living in Serbia are less than in most European countries.

One reason is because Serbia has relatively developed agriculture and it less imports foodstuffs.

Summary again:

Average wages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_net_average_ wage

Serbia $479
Bulgaria (EU) $414
Romania (EU) $485
Macedonia $458
Albania $264
Montenegro $618.

And you can see average wages in Serbia are about three times more than you claimed.
But the date about salary for Albania is old.
You can't compare the salary of albanian and serbia, because the date is very long (3 years).

Garrick
07-10-13, 21:58
But the date about salary for Albania is old.
You can't compare the salary of albanian and serbia, because the date is very long (3 years).

Life in Serbia (and all over the Balkans) is better than Albania, and these data are accurate.

You have examples that people from Albania come in Serbia as migrants.

You don't have examples that people from Serbia are migrants to Albania.

Marko94
08-10-13, 18:36
Life in Serbia (and all over the Balkans) is better than Albania, and these data are accurate.

You have examples that people from Albania come in Serbia as migrants.

You don't have examples that people from Serbia are migrants to Albania.
Probably you're an alien or come from a parallel universe where Albanians and Serbs are friends.
Maybe escapes you one thing , the countries of Eastern Europe (except the Czech Republic ) are all poor.
In the internet (thanks to my friend Albanian ) I discovered the Albanians emigrated to Italy , Germany or USA .
Serbia is a poor country , because you have the "courage" to equate Serbia with Italy,Germany,USA and other country of first world ?
Who are you to say that Serbia is rich ? If it were so then why you Serbs emigrated to Italy?



The Albanians have never emigrated to Serbia since these two ethnic groups hate each other, and since the middle ages the albanians have always emigrated to Italy , always.
The fact that the Albanians in Serbia are not yet known .
If it turns out that the Albanians originate in those populations that abiravano the Balkans before the Slavs as you put it? In Italy the fact that the Albanians are Slavs in the Balkans before you ( I'm not saying that Albanians are sourced from Illyrians ) is completely confirmed .
From what? From language.
The word in albanian language is majority.
Probably the Albanians were taken by the Romans and moved in the Balkans ( if they confirm that the Albanians not have origins from the Illyrians , Thracians or other).


Accordin to video (you know which video) in Albania stay 30.000 serbians (don't is a precise census).

kamani
08-10-13, 19:48
The Albanians have never emigrated to Serbia since these two ethnic groups hate each other
Let's calm down a bit, Albanians don't hate Serbs, a few Kosovar Albanians maybe, because they were occupied by them and have had bad experiences. Albanians from Albania don't know/don't care about Serbs, they don't immigrate there because it does not have to offer much more than Albania.

Ike
08-10-13, 19:49
He is just joking with you Garrick. You see that he is turning your thoughts around, and making a total mess out of this thread.

Garrick
08-10-13, 20:16
He is just joking with you Garrick. You see that he is turning your thoughts around, and making a total mess out of this thread.

I have patience. And I avoid many things to say. When I would write it he would only ever seen as unfavorable to the reality (for Albanians). But I will not, I want to be gentle. But this what I write is based on data and data are relentless, whatever effort distortion can't twist the true.

Garrick
08-10-13, 20:23
Let's calm down a bit, Albanians don't hate Serbs, a few Kosovar Albanians maybe, because they were occupied by them and have had bad experiences. Albanians from Albania don't know/don't care about Serbs, they don't immigrate there because it does not have to offer much more than Albania.

I was clear enough. I didn't write that people from Albania have mass emigration in Serbia. I only wrote that there are migrants from Albania to Serbia, but no migrants from Serbia to Albania. These are not big numbers and these are facts. Serbia, in spite of all that had, is survived and it is much better place for life than Albania.

Marko94
08-10-13, 20:51
Let's calm down a bit, Albanians don't hate Serbs, a few Kosovar Albanians maybe, because they were occupied by them and have had bad experiences. Albanians from Albania don't know/don't care about Serbs, they don't immigrate there because it does not have to offer much more than Albania.
I'm not angry.
I know the Albanians hate Serbs as the Serbs hate Albanians.
Just only see the match Serbia vs Italy what they burned.
Obviously I do not say "all Albanians hate Serbs," but probably the majority (perhaps only scutari not hate them because it is half Serbian).

About emigration.
The thing that you say is the same thing that I say.
The problem is that Garrick think that Serbia is a great power, but in reality is only a poor country such as Albania, Ukraine, FYROM, Romania and other.
I do not understand why Garrick thinks that Serbia is far ahead of all, since it is not.

Marko94
08-10-13, 20:52
He is just joking with you Garrick. You see that he is turning your thoughts around, and making a total mess out of this thread.
Don't is a joking.
I just say the truth.

Marko94
08-10-13, 21:23
I was clear enough. I didn't write that people from Albania have mass emigration in Serbia. I only wrote that there are migrants from Albania to Serbia, but no migrants from Serbia to Albania. These are not big numbers and these are facts. Serbia, in spite of all that had, is survived and it is much better place for life than Albania.
Mhhhh?
You know how is work a country ?
Maybe you do not know , but it was thanks to companies ( national and international) earn with taxes.
In Serbia there are 500 Italian companies active (for Repubblica are 1.100 http://inchieste.repubblica.it/it/repubblica/rep-it/2012/03/12/news/investimenti_italiani_in_serbia-31234386/)
Do you know why there are so many compared to other countries of the Balkans ?
For the cost of workers ( low) and taxes (which are around 11 % -22 %).


I'll explain how the brain of an Italian businessman .


"I'm failing, in which country I go to the location for save my company?
There needs a country where the cost of workers is low and low taxes .
Ok , I make a list.
( this is just a example , i know just the salary of serbia and poland )
Albania = The salary is around 450 \ 500 euro and the taxe is 14% with right worker .
Croatia = The salary is around 450 \ 500 euro and taxe 12% or 10 % with right worker .
Poland = The salary is around 300 \ 400 euro and taxe 12 % or 13% without right worker .
Serbia = The salary is 200 \ 300 euro and taxe is 12 % or 13% without tight worker .
Now I have to choose which country.
I choose serbia because wages are low, I make them work 11 hours a day and taxes are low . "
This is why there are so many Italian companies in Serbia compared to other countries of Eastern Europe .

Ike
08-10-13, 21:42
Don't is a joking. I just say the truth.

1. You do not. You're saying a lot of misleading things that divert the conversation to a nonsense. How are sentences like this supposed to be interpreted?

Who are you to say that Serbia is rich ? If it were so then why you Serbs emigrated to Italy?

Why are you involving a subjective descriptor as "being rich" is, next to specific parameters that define an economic status of one country, which Garrick has presented?
More than that, where have you seen him saying that Serbia is rich, or that is richer compared to Italy?

2.Your generalization about Albanians is also wrong. I'm the third person here to know that most of Albanians from Albania don't care a lot about Serbia (negative or positive). For what is worth, I have also heard that they have negative bias towards Albanians of Kosovo. If you have different opinion or better data, present them.

3. Are you the one who is giving negative ratings to Garrick's posts? Because that would be a misuse of rating system. It is not Facebook like/dislike button. You don't give someone a negative rating just because you don't agree with his opinion.

4. You "Italian businessman" logic is fine, but if it was only for that, then Serbia would be full of Swedish, German, British, Canadian and Japanese factories....

Marko94
10-10-13, 20:19
1. You do not. You're saying a lot of misleading things that divert the conversation to a nonsense. How are sentences like this supposed to be interpreted?


Why are you involving a subjective descriptor as "being rich" is, next to specific parameters that define an economic status of one country, which Garrick has presented?
More than that, where have you seen him saying that Serbia is rich, or that is richer compared to Italy?

2.Your generalization about Albanians is also wrong. I'm the third person here to know that most of Albanians from Albania don't care a lot about Serbia (negative or positive). For what is worth, I have also heard that they have negative bias towards Albanians of Kosovo. If you have different opinion or better data, present them.

3. Are you the one who is giving negative ratings to Garrick's posts? Because that would be a misuse of rating system. It is not Facebook like/dislike button. You don't give someone a negative rating just because you don't agree with his opinion.

4. You "Italian businessman" logic is fine, but if it was only for that, then Serbia would be full of Swedish, German, British, Canadian and Japanese factories....

1)No, no I'm telling you what's going on in Serbia (increase in GDP and increase request work) and what is happening in Italy (decrease of GDP and a decrease in job demands).It was you who talk about the economy serbia, I'm just saying do not be so happy because in Italy everything is wrong.

He said that Serbia is better than the other countries of the Balkans.
Says who? Who is he to confirm?
Strange, in Italy when it comes to the Balkans know what they say?


"Croatia's entry into eu and immediately asked for funds to European bank.
The bulgaria has a financial crisis and wants to go out by the eu.
Greece same thing.
Albania country with a high rate of corruption and the mafia, if you fail to remove corruption might become a great country.
In Italy there is little information on Bosnia, so I'm not very knowledgeable about how things are going.
FYROM same thing, are not informed of this country.
In Serbia have opened other factories while here it close others. "
These are the news and information that I have.

2)I have never been in Albania.
My name is "Marko", this name was given to me just born and had my paternal grandfather.
When I was 3 years old, my parents separated and after I acquired the surname of my mother (Torrini), in fact my name is Marko Torrini.
I know a few Albanians (only 7 and my father), and thanks to them and to the information on the internet or tv I realized that most of the Albanians hate Serbs.
My information about the relations between Albania and Serbia, I have taken from internet, read the newspaper or seen on TV.

3)Mine is not antipathy.
I can not give negative votes? If I tell the truth and you do not accept it is not my fault.
I'm telling you that there are so many companies in Serbia because wages are low.
In Serbia there are more than 500 companies, compared to other countries of Eastern Europe, Serbia is the country with the highest number of Italian companies.
I have already explained why there are so many companies in Serbia, I do not need any of the second explanation.

4)In fact, in Serbia there are not only Italian companies.

Ike
10-10-13, 20:40
1)No, no I'm telling you what's going on in Serbia (increase in GDP and increase request work) and what is happening in Italy (decrease of GDP and a decrease in job demands).It was you who talk about the economy serbia, I'm just saying do not be so happy because in Italy everything is wrong.

He said that Serbia is better than the other countries of the Balkans.
Says who? Who is he to confirm?
Strange, in Italy when it comes to the Balkans know what they say?


"Croatia's entry into eu and immediately asked for funds to European bank.
The bulgaria has a financial crisis and wants to go out by the eu.
Greece same thing.
Albania country with a high rate of corruption and the mafia, if you fail to remove corruption might become a great country.
In Italy there is little information on Bosnia, so I'm not very knowledgeable about how things are going.
FYROM same thing, are not informed of this country.
In Serbia have opened other factories while here it close others. "
These are the news and information that I have.


Nowhere did he he impose that Serbia is in economic way superior than other Balkan countries. Where did you get that idea from?
It's obvious from the numbers he posted that it is in the same group with Bulgaria, Romania and Macedonia.


2)I have never been in Albania.
My name is "Marko", this name was given to me just born and had my paternal grandfather.
When I was 3 years old, my parents separated and after I acquired the surname of my mother (Torrini), in fact my name is Marko Torrini.
I know a few Albanians (only 7 and my father), and thanks to them and to the information on the internet or tv I realized that most of the Albanians hate Serbs.
My information about the relations between Albania and Serbia, I have taken from internet, read the newspaper or seen on TV.

I thought the same because it felt logical for them all to hate Serbians, but then people who have actually been to Albanian and spoken with Albanians told me different.


3)Mine is not antipathy.
I can not give negative votes? If I tell the truth and you do not accept it is not my fault.
No you should not give negative votes for that. You don't give negative votes just because someone's opinion is different, or because you think that you know the truth and he doesn't.



I'm telling you that there are so many companies in Serbia because wages are low.
In Serbia there are more than 500 companies, compared to other countries of Eastern Europe, Serbia is the country with the highest number of Italian companies.
I have already explained why there are so many companies in Serbia, I do not need any of the second explanation.
In fact, in Serbia there are not only Italian companies.

Yeah, we all know Serbia and whole Balkan is pretty fu*ed up economically. It's so obvious that there is no need to repeat it again. If someone doesn't know that, he should be not talking about economics anyway :)

Marko94
11-10-13, 15:14
Nowhere did he he impose that Serbia is in economic way superior than other Balkan countries. Where did you get that idea from?
It's obvious from the numbers he posted that it is in the same group with Bulgaria, Romania and Macedonia.


I have take from Garrick.
Countries with a high increase in GDP are only Albania, Croatia, Kosovo and Serbia.
These 4 countries are talking about because they have made ​​great strides in the field of economics.
When you say (for example) "Albania has a better economy than in Serbia" or "Serbia has a better economy than Albania" I criticize them because these phrases are countries that make great strides in the economy and certainly it will take (I'm not entirely sure) at least 15 or 20 years ago to establish who is better in the Balkans (the first is the Greece).
I notice that a lot of people to join the group Balkans "Romania" and "Slovenia".
These two states are not part of the Balkans.




I thought the same because it felt logical for them all to hate Serbians, but then people who have actually been to Albanian and spoken with Albanians told me different.

Ok.




No you should not give negative votes for that. You don't give negative votes just because someone's opinion is different, or because you think that you know the truth and he doesn't.

I did not give negative votes on the basis of antipathy.
But they were wrong.
My grades (if you look closely)i have take to Garrik when said "The wages in Serbia are about 700 Euros."
What totally wrong, that's all.



Yeah, we all know Serbia and whole Balkan is pretty fu*ed up economically. It's so obvious that there is no need to repeat it again. If someone doesn't know that, he should be not talking about economics anyway :)

All are pucked up economically.
But, each country has made ​​its steps to improve.Probably if there had never been a communist Yugoslavia, but Yugoslavia Democratic perhaps you would become a first world country.

Garrick
11-10-13, 16:16
My grades (if you look closely)i have take to Garrik when said "The wages in Serbia are about 700 Euros."
What totally wrong, that's all.


You have not person for serious talks because you twisting words of interlocutor.

For example where I wrote that average salary in Serbia is 700 euros.

I give what I wrote:



For example if someone has salary in Serbia 700 euros and his colleague in another country 900 euros, but in that country all is more expensive then the question is who is in a better position.





Average salaries Balkans (with Wikipedia):

Serbia $479
Bulgaria (EU) $414
Romania (EU) $485
Macedonia $458
Albania $264
Montenegro $618

You can see Serbia is similar as Romania.

But Albania is last, way behind Bulgaria.




You write:



He said that Serbia is better than the other countries of the Balkans.


Where did I write this sentence?

Why don't you my words with quote?

This, you transmit false.

In that way discussion with you is impossible.

Find an example that I incorrectly transferred your words. I try to respect each participant, although you can see that your Albanian compatriots unjustly give me minuses for everything they do not like, regardless of true.

Marko94
12-10-13, 20:54
You have not person for serious talks because you twisting words of interlocutor.

For example where I wrote that average salary in Serbia is 700 euros.

I give what I wrote:

I was talking about average salaries.
You said that based on the cost of living wages are high.
But it is not so, before Italy to adopt the euro with EUR 1,000 you could live.
The cost of living was low, and wages are too high.




The best position them those with low wages and low taxes.






You write:



Where did I write this sentence?

Why don't you my words with quote?

This, you transmit false.

In that way discussion with you is impossible.

Find an example that I incorrectly transferred your words. I try to respect each participant, although you can see that your Albanian compatriots unjustly give me minuses for everything they do not like, regardless of true.

You with your post confirms that Serbia is ahead of countries such as Albania and all those below them (FYROM, Bosnia and Montenegro).
You said that the weakness of the Balkans and Albania and without a source of accurate statistics.
So, with your comment only proves to be nationalist.
In this world we must be able to understand its limits.
In all my posts I only said that "It 's difficult to know which country is better than the other because there are many flaws in addition to corruption" (I speak for the Balkans).

Ike
12-10-13, 22:36
LoL, this is getting funny :)

Garrick
13-10-13, 01:11
I was talking about average salaries.
You said that based on the cost of living wages are high.
But it is not so, before Italy to adopt the euro with EUR 1,000 you could live.
The cost of living was low, and wages are too high.

The best position them those with low wages and low taxes.

You with your post confirms that Serbia is ahead of countries such as Albania and all those below them (FYROM, Bosnia and Montenegro).
You said that the weakness of the Balkans and Albania and without a source of accurate statistics.
So, with your comment only proves to be nationalist.
In this world we must be able to understand its limits.
In all my posts I only said that "It 's difficult to know which country is better than the other because there are many flaws in addition to corruption" (I speak for the Balkans).

Well, you change words. But you trying tag me as nationalist. Why do you do it?

For all there are data. You wonder that Balkans is in a difficult economic situation. Do you think that it is not true?

You wonder what I say that Albania is less developed than other Balkan countries. Yes, it is true too.

You are lucky, because Italy is much developed than Balkan countries. Balkans people (especially Albanians and Romanians) migrate to Italy, not vice verse.

You can check these claims, you can enter in IMF, WB etc. database and search what you want.

I repeat two set data.

GDP (PPP) per capita for Bulgaria, Serbia, Montenegro, Romania, Bosnia, Albania and Macedonia according IMF (Kosovo is 7,506), (intl. $):

69. Bulgaria, 14,103
76. Romania, 12,722
82. Montenegro, 11,610
84. Serbia, 10,722
87. Macedonia, 10,465
99. Bosnia, 8,127
100. Albania, 7,997


Salaries for same countries

Montenegro $618
Bosnia $558
Romania $485
Serbia $479
Macedonia $458
Bulgaria $414
Albania $264

Next time I will prepare migration rate. For example some countries can increase GDP (PPP) per capita if their population leaving the country at a high rate (you should look how many people emigrated from each Balkan country and you will be clear one of reason of jump GDP per capita in some countries).

And for economies of Balkan countries there are many texts, you can search and read. But it is easiest to belittle the participant how he doesn’t give materials.

Here are some articles about Balkan countries from 2009 to today.

From a global crisis to a Balkan crisis (2009)

http://www.diplomaticobserver.com/EN/belge/2-889/from-a-global-crisis-to-a-balkan-crisis.html

From recession to reform: The Western Balkans and the impacts of a double dip recession

http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2012/12/18/from-recession-to-reform-western-balkans-and-impacts-of-double-dip-recession


Globalizing the Western Balkans, about organized crime (2012)

http://etudescaribeennes.revues.org/5871

„Developing and weak countries such as Kosovo, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Albania and Macedonia, with an underfunded and corrupt educational system, lack of clear norms and weak government institutions, have been unable to provide healthy environment for their youths who in turn have been an easy pray not only for criminal groups but also for Islamic fundamentalists.“

Regime uncertainty, the Balkans and the weak US recovery (2012)

http://marketmonetarist.com/2012/10/31/regime-uncertainty-the-balkans-and-the-weak-us-recovery/

IMF Serbian austerity measures and reaction of IMF (2013)

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=87936

I think this is enough for now.

You can see which position Albanian economy has in the Balkans.

And Kosovo economy is even worse from Albania (out of competition).

In the time Serbian province Kosovo was better economy than Albania.

Marko94
14-10-13, 23:53
I don't know where have you take the information about GDP.
But the truth GDP (PPP) is that.

Bulgaria: 15,933 (2012)
Serbia: 11,085 (2012)
Albania: 9,231 (2012)
Montenegro: 11.800 (2012)
Romania: 16.58 (2012)

You're doing a compare it with a country that only 22 years, took a communism tightened.
You can not put in the same scale albania with the other countries of the Balkans.
Is like to compare the north korea (when it will end communism) with other countries of asia???
You know when it will end communism in Vietnam and North Korea will see many emigrants.
I'm just saying that Albania is different from the other countries of the Balkans, Albania comunism is like comunism of North Korea.

For salary I have ask to you.
But probably you want me to re-explain.
Serbia is the third country with the largest Italian factories in the world.
Do you know why so many? Because the cost of workers is low, so wages are lower than those of the Albanians.
Why can not you accept the truth?
If the cost of Albanian workers was about 269 euro then they would go to Albania to produce, but it is not.
I also said that the data is older than 3 years.

The Albanian emigration there was immediately after the end of communism, do not you understand it or not?
What do not you understand? Explain it.
And then the Albanian emigration is not your problem, is a problem of Albania and the Albanians.




The crisis has affected in particular the countries of southern Europe, then "Albania" is part of it.
In Italy many close factories for open in Serbia because the cost of workers is the lowest.
If wages were about 269, then these companies italian (are 500 and for repubblica are 1.100)would go to Albania.
Italian companies are in Serbia because wages are low.

The emigration because of communism there has been "locked" in Albania.
You once again put on the scales different countries.
If you want to make a comparison fouls between the countries of the ex-yugoslavia.


If in a parallel universe albania, Greece and Romania were not in Eastern Europe surely these countries would have a better future.
If Romania and Albania would not have had contacts with Russia in World War II would not become communist countries and would have been better.
The comunism was diffuse by "russian".

Garrick
15-10-13, 04:09
GDP (PPP) per capita for Bulgaria, Serbia, Montenegro, Romania, Bosnia, Albania and Macedonia according IMF (Kosovo is 7,506), (intl. $):

69. Bulgaria, 14,103
76. Romania, 12,722
82. Montenegro, 11,610
84. Serbia, 10,722
87. Macedonia, 10,465
99. Bosnia, 8,127
100. Albania, 7,997






I don't know where have you take the information about GDP.
But the truth GDP (PPP) is that.

Bulgaria: 15,933 (2012)
Serbia: 11,085 (2012)
Albania: 9,231 (2012)
Montenegro: 11.800 (2012)
Romania: 16.58 (2012)



You can read about topic. I gave data of International Monetary Fund (IMF), usually people use the IMF data, you gave date of World Bank (WB). Methodologies are not same.

Who wants can see these data in Wikipedia (he/she does not have to enter in IMF or WB database)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita

Luan
15-10-13, 18:24
It's crazy how some Serbs still believe kosova will be Serbia, wile Albanians live in reality independent kosova. Can't wait to go back to my free country. Nothing Serbs can do about it.

Marko94
15-10-13, 21:47
You can read about topic. I gave data of International Monetary Fund (IMF), usually people use the IMF data, you gave date of World Bank (WB). Methodologies are not same.

Who wants can see these data in Wikipedia (he/she does not have to enter in IMF or WB database)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita

I have take form wikipedia.
I have write "Albania wiki" and i go to look the GDP.

Garrick
16-10-13, 01:29
I have take form wikipedia.
I have write "Albania wiki" and i go to look the GDP.

It is no problem. We both gave information correctly. IMF and WB have different methodologies.

Garrick
26-10-13, 04:30
It's crazy how some Serbs still believe kosova will be Serbia, wile Albanians live in reality independent kosova. Can't wait to go back to my free country. Nothing Serbs can do about it.

Kurds (Kurdish nation) number about 30 million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people

Kurds (30 million) don't have a state, but Albanians (4.4 million) want to have two states.

And things are complex.

These days Turkish Prime Ministar Erdogan said:

"Turkey is Kosovo, Kosovo is Turkey"

http://english.sabah.com.tr/National/2013/10/24/pm-erdogan-kosovo-is-turkey

http://theremustbejustice.wordpress.com/2013/10/25/turkeys-erdogan-in-serbian-kosovo-this-is-turkey/

http://theremustbejustice.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/erdogan-kosovo.jpg?w=594&h=394


Leader of the Freedom Party of Austria (FPO) Heinz-Christian Strache (regarding the statement by Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan):

“His territorial pretensions in Europe are a step away from the restoration of the Ottoman Empire that [Recep Tayyip] Erdogan wants, ” he stressed in a statement.

http://inserbia.info/news/2013/10/kosovo-is-not-turkey-erdogan-will-fail-with-new-ottoman-empire-heinz-christian-strache/

Turkey, Strache recalled, is not part of Europe and only one, most minimal part in southeast belongs to Turkey.

“We fought for this several centuries ago, and it will always remain like this. At first Erdogan undermined European societies with a mass of its citizens, who he calls ”his soldiers”, and now he openly expresses territorial pretensions in a sovereign European country – Serbia. This is absolutely unacceptable,” pointed out Strache.

albanopolis
31-10-13, 02:39
Turkey is projected to reach 100 mil souls in the few coming decades. It has modernised and improved its university's to admirable levels, its industrial base modernising. It will be a formidable power in two decades. Austria, Serbia, Greece taken together are and will be no match to Turkey. Turkey has Europe by balls. All important gas and oil pipelines cross Turkey, and important energy reserves are in turkic countries. So, don't be surprised if Turks come back, where they have been before. I agree with you that should not be two Albanians states, or could be a third one in the near future. It shuld be one, a unified state.

Ike
31-10-13, 13:44
Like Albanians would let Kosovars in. Why should they? They have independent,functional, internationally recognized state. Kosovo, on the other hand, has a history of wars, murder, blood revenge, drug smuggling, human trafficking, organ theft, no industry, no budget, etc. It's obvious that crucial problems with Serbia are not sorted out, and that other states in the region are interested in territory of Kosovo. Annexation of Kosovo could only bring their economy down, and impending war on their territory. Ney, I would think thrice before am adventure like that.

kamani
31-10-13, 16:20
Kosovo, on the other hand, has a history of wars, murder, blood revenge, drug smuggling, human trafficking, organ theft, no industry, no budget, etc.

You guys have some nerve to still bad-mouth Kosovo, after all Serbia did over there...
Albania and Kosovo uniting is just nonsense for many practical reasons. I see more an extreme economical tie, like US and Canada.

Ike
31-10-13, 17:13
You mean after all that that Muslims did in Kosovo for the last couple of centuries?

Garrick
31-10-13, 23:24
Turkey is projected to reach 100 mil souls in the few coming decades. It has modernised and improved its university's to admirable levels, its industrial base modernising. It will be a formidable power in two decades. Austria, Serbia, Greece taken together are and will be no match to Turkey. Turkey has Europe by balls. All important gas and oil pipelines cross Turkey, and important energy reserves are in turkic countries. So, don't be surprised if Turks come back, where they have been before. I agree with you that should not be two Albanians states, or could be a third one in the near future. It shuld be one, a unified state.

Yes, Albanians and Turks are fraternal allies of the Muslim faith, for centuries in the Ottoman empire and after and now.

Turks made large-scale ethnic cleansing of Serbs of Kosovo and Metohija and other Serbian regions in 17th and 18th centuries. In First great Serbs migration Turks expelled 37,000 Serbian families which is at least 185,000 peoples and 360 villages have been completely deserted. Even Emile Picot concluded that it was 35,000 to 40,000 families, between 400,000 and 500,000 people but Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences, supports the figure of 37,000 families.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Serb_Migrations

After Turks made ethnic cleansing of Serbs Albanians as Turkish allies began to arrive in Kosovo and Metohija.

Yes Serbs were Austrian and Hungarian allies. Yes, I believe today Austria, Hungary, Serbia and Greece are in good relations and they have power greater than Turkey. You should not forget that Turkey didn't solve Kurdish issues, and the Kurds (unlike Kosovo Albanians) have a grounds to demand independence. Kurds are big nation (30,000,000 people) and they have much more rights to have a state than Albanians (4,400,000) who wants two, or three or more states (Albania, Kosovo, Illyrida, etc.).

kamani
01-11-13, 01:28
Turks made life hard for the christian population which was Serbs, orthodox Albanians, catholic Albanians etc. There are more records of Albanian revolts in 17-18th century in Kosovo against the turks than there are of Serbian revolts, so it is vague as to who was the majority. A lot of the displaced were christian Albanians that could not live under ottoman rule and now are Serbs (proof: 20% E-v13 in Serbia).
And since when it is ok to unleash the military on civilian Kosovars because of what the turks might have done to your ancestors in the 17 century !?

albanopolis
01-11-13, 01:54
Of course Kurds have the right of their own state, but they are not fighting for it. Nobody gives you freedom if you don't fight for it. Kosovo fought repeatedly against Serb colonialism and finally won. Kurds are not doing it. Have you seen the mass graves in Kosovo? Serbs are the builders of them.

Garrick
01-11-13, 21:31
Turks made life hard for the christian population which was Serbs, orthodox Albanians, catholic Albanians etc. There are more records of Albanian revolts in 17-18th century in Kosovo against the turks than there are of Serbian revolts, so it is vague as to who was the majority. A lot of the displaced were christian Albanians that could not live under ottoman rule and now are Serbs (proof: 20% E-v13 in Serbia).
And since when it is ok to unleash the military on civilian Kosovars because of what the turks might have done to your ancestors in the 17 century !?

Basically, between Serbian and Albanian Christians were not a significant disputes. And today Serbs marry Albanian women (from Albania) who are Christian (Catholic or Orthodox Christian). But no Muslim Albanian women, because Islam forbids Muslim woman to marry a non-Muslim.

The problem of Serbs and Albanians overwhelmingly is religious, not national: Serbs are almost all Christians (mostly Orthodox and Protestants), Albanians are mostly Sunny Muslims. For example when the Turkish prime minister says “Turkey is Kosovo” and Albanians are supported him, in essence, he certainly has in his head new Balkan neo-Ottoman order, and refers to the religious brotherhood of Turks and Albanians, the brotherhood of faith.

According to the Qur'an all Muslims belong to one community Ummah. Muslims belong Ummah and have an obligation to each other even if do not know each other and live on the two ends of the world. Although, for example, an Albanian Muslim and a Christian Serb years good buddy, tomorrow to experience a Muslim Turk, whom the Albanian had never seen in his life, he has to stand on side of the Turk against fellow Serb, from which a lifetime mate. Simply by required a Muslim religious rules. Greeks, Serbs, Hungarians and other nations well acquainted Muslim rules and laws (Shari’ah) during the reign of Ottoman Empire.

Ike
02-11-13, 23:26
Turks made life hard for the christian population which was Serbs, orthodox Albanians, catholic Albanians etc. There are more records of Albanian revolts in 17-18th century in Kosovo against the turks than there are of Serbian revolts, so it is vague as to who was the majority. A lot of the displaced were christian Albanians that could not live under ottoman rule and now are Serbs (proof: 20% E-v13 in Serbia).
And since when it is ok to unleash the military on civilian Kosovars because of what the turks might have done to your ancestors in the 17 century !?

1. Albanians are mix of many HG's. There is a lot of R1a, R1b, I and J, especially on the Albanian plains. Those territories have been inhabited by Phoenicians and Illyrians. A lot of tribes passed through there, Thracian, Celtic, Doric, Macedonian... During medieval times House of Anjou held territories of Albania, which was a gathering point for crusaders coming from Sardinia, Corsica, Naples or through Italy. High percentage of E-V13 among Albanian speakers is pure coincidence, and it is ridiculous to call E-V13 an Albanian marker. FWIW, there is still no evidence that E-V13 has been on Balkans before Turks.

2. Civilians ? Indeed nice civilians :) I guess every European country would like civilians like this to cross their borders?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cczXklpCo4

Duo
06-11-13, 00:03
The argument that Kosovo is part of Serbia or that Kosovo was part of Albania is one that has no end, going back to the origins of the indigenous population in the ancient Balkans. It is pointless to continue on like this. 60 years after WWII, France and Germany, once despised enemies are now the forefront of the European Union and the engine of it's economy, and although that partnership has seen better days, it is still proof that European integration towards a common good can look beyond previous animosities. The atrocities that were committed in post 90s Yugoslavia should not be forgotten, and Serbia bears a great deal of responsibility in this regard, but they should not be an anchor that ties down the people of the Balkans from moving forward with the tide of change, progress, and integration. Slovenia and Crotia are already leaving the rest behind; it is time for the other south-western Balkan countries to shape up, stop using old excuses, and push forward for a better future for their people. This thread serves no purpose and is obsolete. I have met countless young people from the former soviet republics away from their native land, and I am glad to say that they get along splendidly; it is only those still stuck in old nationalistic mindsets that continue to drag this on forever.

Garrick
15-11-13, 18:58
Topic started from Syria because some senior politicians from the West compared Syria with Kosovo. One of them is President of US Mr. Barrack Obama.

And these days we can see links with Syria, islamists like Al Qaeda act in Kosovo.
http://www.focus-fen.net/?id=n318687
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4452575,00.html

I prefer economic topics. Serbia has for decades invested heavily in Kosovo in order to equalize the standard of Kosovo with the other parts of Serbia. The vast property is now under question and this topic has not yet begun to be solved.

But we cannot avoid political topics. These days Turkish Prime minister showed us that Turkey is again in the heart of Balkans, he said: "Kosovo is Turkey". Here we see the activities of Al Qaeda. What is tomorrow?

intorg
18-11-13, 16:17
According to me, the integration of all mentioned countries like Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Kosovo, Macedonia and even Albania into the European Union will decrease the tension between them. Economical integrity and dependence to each other will increase the chance of long term peace.

Marko94
21-11-13, 21:20
You mean after all that that Muslims did in Kosovo for the last couple of centuries?
Again religion.
I want to ask you a question.
If the Turks never entered in the Balkans, and the Albanians were Orthodox majority what would you say?
-------------------------------------------------
If one day you find out that the great schism was made by the Albanians what would you do? You kill self? Of course not.

Marko94
21-11-13, 21:31
According to me, the integration of all mentioned countries like Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Kosovo, Macedonia and even Albania into the European Union will decrease the tension between them. Economical integrity and dependence to each other will increase the chance of long term peace.
UE.....enter in UE or not enter in UE?
The EU is happy when you haven't problems (for problems i means crysis), if you are in crisis gives you a kick.
If I had my way, countries such as Romania, Bulgaria and Poland should stay out of the EU since they are still fragile economies and countries of the "second world".
If we let countries just because they have reduced crime (slightly) debt public then we enter Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and the Philippines........

Ike
22-11-13, 01:41
Again religion.
I want to ask you a question.
If the Turks never entered in the Balkans, and the Albanians were Orthodox majority what would you say?
-------------------------------------------------
If one day you find out that the great schism was made by the Albanians what would you do? You kill self? Of course not.

It's always about religion. Religion is what starts wars here.

1. Albanians probably were Orthodox long time ago. What would I say? Nothing... They'd probably be a peaceful nation, instead of being Muslims in Europe. There would not be much to talk about.
2. What does it have to do with anything, who started Great Schism? It was not started by people, but by power thirsty clericals.

Marko94
22-11-13, 17:57
It's always about religion. Religion is what starts wars here.

1. Albanians probably were Orthodox long time ago. What would I say? Nothing... They'd probably be a peaceful nation, instead of being Muslims in Europe. There would not be much to talk about.
2. What does it have to do with anything, who started Great Schism? It was not started by people, but by power thirsty clericals.
Peaceful nation? Yea? Like Russia,Ukraine,Serbia or other?
Tell me about your peaceful country orthodox
If the orthodox countries are so "peaceful" then why the First World War did not start from Albanian or Bosnjak? Why kill the prince Austric was not a Bosnjak, but a Serb? Give me a list of countries with a majority Orthodox worthy of being called "peaceful"? Mhhh ..... if you want to do a list of countries "Catholics" peaceful.
Albania is not a first world country (like many other countries) and not a peaceful country because for many years had a strong communism.

Garrick
22-11-13, 18:58
For me one thing is always been fascinating. Muslim Turks ruled many nations in the Balkans and beyond. Some member of these nations would convert to Islam. You have and today muslim in Serbia who speaks Serbian, muslim in Croatia who speaks Croatian, muslim in Bulgaria who speaks Bulgarian, muslim in Greece who speaks Greek etc. People converted to islam in Ottoman Empire, of course Sharia low is much better for Muslims than for non-Muslims.

But Serbs, Greeks, Croats, Bulgarians, Romanians, Hungarians etc. are mostly have remained committed to Christianity. Only, the vast majority of Albanians converted to Islam. There must be a reason for converting of Albanians into Islam.

Ike
22-11-13, 23:40
If the orthodox countries are so "peaceful" then why the First World War did not start from Albanian or Bosnjak?

Because they are surrounded by non peaceful nations.

kamani
23-11-13, 00:56
But Serbs, Greeks, Croats, Bulgarians, Romanians, Hungarians etc. are mostly have remained committed to Christianity. Only, the vast majority of Albanians converted to Islam. There must be a reason for converting of Albanians into Islam.
Most Christian Orthodox Albanians have been assimilated by Greece, look up Suliots and Arvanites. So the muslim Albanians are the ones that the neighbors could not assimilate, that's why the ratio looks the way it looks today. Plus Turks were much more cruel to Christian Albanians than to other nations (that's why Albanians have the most revolts against Ottomans), it was their divide and conquer policy to get them to convert, in order to create polarization in the Balkans.

Ike
23-11-13, 12:00
If there were so many Albanians to start with, then you'd have Albanians assimilating neighbouring nations. The fact that they all speak same language today, doesn't mean they were one ethnicity before arrival of Turks.

kamani
23-11-13, 17:28
If there were so many Albanians to start with, then you'd have Albanians assimilating neighbouring nations.
Albanian was the only language in the Balkans that was banned in the Ottoman empire. If you were caught teaching Albanian at a school or public place, the punishment was death. On the other hand, schools teaching Greek were allowed in Albania, which is very suspicious. Obviously none is in the position to assimilate anyone if they cannot even teach their language. The Ottomans were not that friendly to Albanians, if you really look at the details.

Ike
23-11-13, 19:35
Why would Turks be more friendly to Bulgarian, Greek, Aromanian or other Balkan languages than towards Albanian?

kamani
24-11-13, 00:33
Why would Turks be more friendly to Bulgarian, Greek, Aromanian or other Balkan languages than towards Albanian?

I can't really speak for Turks, but some reasons might be:
1. Albanians were known for being more hard-headed with a strong national identity, with Skanderbeg beating the Ottoman empire head-on in the battlefield as opposed to negotiating, which was the most logical thing based on the size and resources of the Ottomans. So where do you attack someone's national identity? Try to ban their language...Try to make them Greek etc.

2. You can try to make Bulgarian dissapear but that would be a pointless task, because then you have to make Serbian dissapear, then Croatian, then Russian...etc.

3. You can try to make Greek disappear but Greek is in written form everywhere in the world, so again a pointless task. Plus it was the official language of the Byzantine Orthodox Church, which after the fall of Kostandinopole became a tool of the Ottomans to keep the population submissive. Plus if there is no Greek, what other language are you going to use to make Albanian disappear ?!

Ike
26-11-13, 15:17
1. Disagree. Albanians were never known for a strong national identity. There are numerous opposite writings from different authors. Both Balkan and European travelers and writers confirming it. National awakening of Albanians started some 100-150 years ago. Even Skenderbeg is disputable...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_Skanderbeg

"From the 15th to the 19th century Skanderbeg's fame survived mainly in Christian Europe and was based on a perception of Skanderbeg's Albania serving as Antemurale Christianitatis (a barrier state) against "invading Turks". In Albania, largely Islamicized during this period, Skanderbeg's fame faded and was rediscovered at the end of 19th century, when the figure of Skanderbeg was brought to the level of national myth."

2. It would totally not be pointless. If they managed to do that they may have been in Balkans right now, like they are in today's Turkey, or like Hungarians are in Pannonian basin.


3. They'd use Turkish. Like they did in Anatolia.

Ino
26-11-13, 17:41
Ike, if you are into fiction you should read Dan Brown or Stephen King, I personally prefer Brown as he sort of tells his stories like they're real.

I'm Albanian, and I'm guessing that you are Yugoslavian from the flag on the profile. No matter how hard we try to be objective we're always going to disagree about our origins because we both want to win. We don't want to get the truth, but WIN. Perhaps it would be better to cool it down and mind our own business for a while until both our countries are doing better economically and with time we will learn more facts as they unveil, because I am a strong believer that no man can hide the truth. I base this belief on the fact that if 'man' can study dinosaurs' fossils millions of years before our species came to existence, then we will, in time, certainly be able to get to the truth about this matter.

I was born in the early eighties in a northern town of Lezha, which is predominantly catholic (roman). My origin along with most of the inhabitants of Lezhe is from north east, an area called MIRDITA (which by the way means good day/or/welcome) and they are all catholic also. I have little recollection of the dictatorship (Enver Hoxha et al 1945 - 1991) but my mum and dad tell me that they have always tried to celebrate christian holidays (like Shenkolle (St. Nicolas) Krishtlindjet (Christmas/Birth of Christ) Pashket (Easter) although it wasn't allowed back then. I have close friends whom are muslyms in our region that originate from an area called DIBER (a battlefield in ottoman rule era) which they say that their forefathers were converted into islamism. I guess what I'm trying to say is that from my point of view we are Albanians just like you are Yugoslavians and we both have our own stories to tell, which is why we need to keep calm and tell it as it is without any nationalistic nuance.

Having been in migration since the age of 15 (to Greece, Italy, France & UK) I haven't had a chance to really know my own country's history, which is why over the past few years, which is why I have started to study history in more detail. And I have become increasingly intrigued by the conflict between Albanians - vs - Yugoslavia & Albanians -vs- Greeks. I have gone through countless material, in an effort to remain objective, unable of course to come to a conclusion. Although contradictory, I have found some similarities in all our stories.

Sometimes it almost seems as if something, or someone is deliberately misleading us all in order to gain something from it, but then I lough at myself as I cannot pinpoint what they would stand to gain and why.

LeBrok
26-11-13, 18:10
Ike, if you are into fiction you should read Dan Brown or Stephen King, I personally prefer Brown as he sort of tells his stories like they're real.

I'm Albanian, and I'm guessing that you are Yugoslavian from the flag on the profile. No matter how hard we try to be objective we're always going to disagree about our origins because we both want to win. We don't want to get the truth, but WIN. Perhaps it would be better to cool it down and mind our own business for a while until both our countries are doing better economically and with time we will learn more facts as they unveil, because I am a strong believer that no man can hide the truth. I base this belief on the fact that if 'man' can study dinosaurs' fossils millions of years before our species came to existence, then we will, in time, certainly be able to get to the truth about this matter.

I was born in the early eighties in a northern town of Lezha, which is predominantly catholic (roman). My origin along with most of the inhabitants of Lezhe is from north east, an area called MIRDITA (which by the way means good day/or/welcome) and they are all catholic also. I have little recollection of the dictatorship (Enver Hoxha et al 1945 - 1991) but my mum and dad tell me that they have always tried to celebrate christian holidays (like Shenkolle (St. Nicolas) Krishtlindjet (Christmas/Birth of Christ) Pashket (Easter) although it wasn't allowed back then. I have close friends whom are muslyms in our region that originate from an area called DIBER (a battlefield in ottoman rule era) which they say that their forefathers were converted into islamism. I guess what I'm trying to say is that from my point of view we are Albanians just like you are Yugoslavians and we both have our own stories to tell, which is why we need to keep calm and tell it as it is without any nationalistic nuance.

Having been in migration since the age of 15 (to Greece, Italy, France & UK) I haven't had a chance to really know my own country's history, which is why over the past few years, which is why I have started to study history in more detail. And I have become increasingly intrigued by the conflict between Albanians - vs - Yugoslavia & Albanians -vs- Greeks. I have gone through countless material, in an effort to remain objective, unable of course to come to a conclusion. Although contradictory, I have found some similarities in all our stories.

Sometimes it almost seems as if something, or someone is deliberately misleading us all in order to gain something from it, but then I lough at myself as I cannot pinpoint what they would stand to gain and why.
Well said Ino, welcome to Eupedia.


Sometimes it almost seems as if something, or someone is deliberately misleading us all in order to gain something from it, but then I lough at myself as I cannot pinpoint what they would stand to gain and why.
For the same reason we do other things in life, to feel good, in this case feel proud, even superior or win (as you mentioned), they all feel good to most people. What is worse, whatever feels good is potentially addictive.

Ike
26-11-13, 20:02
Ike, if you are into fiction you should read Dan Brown or Stephen King, I personally prefer Brown as he sort of tells his stories like they're real.


I'm just piling onto Kamani's theories. He's the one who started proposing fiction, and I'm trying to make a conversation in that direction. It's all "what would have happened if...." You don't have to participate in that part of talk.

p.s. I agree that we are not moving into any sensible direction, and that it's a bit futile.


No matter how hard we try to be objective we're always going to disagree about our origins because we both want to win. We don't want to get the truth, but WIN.

All I see is foreign irredentists and terrorist for the last 30 years tearing apart pieces of Yugoslavia (which formally still exists). They all have the same argument - they have not enough freedom to express their national feelings. So there we have it, national feelings all around Balkan. And it ended bad.

Anyways your attitude is nice, and it's a shame Albanians didn't think like that from 1980-ies, but started making chaos in the province as soon as Tito died. We all know it couldn't have happened before, because Tito was ruthless to the nationalists from all sides, whether Albanian, Serbian, Montenegrin, Croatian....

Garrick
27-11-13, 00:57
Most Christian Orthodox Albanians have been assimilated by Greece, look up Suliots and Arvanites. So the muslim Albanians are the ones that the neighbors could not assimilate, that's why the ratio looks the way it looks today. Plus Turks were much more cruel to Christian Albanians than to other nations (that's why Albanians have the most revolts against Ottomans), it was their divide and conquer policy to get them to convert, in order to create polarization in the Balkans.

The facts remains. Albanians are the only nations in Europe and beyond who are after paganism and to Christianity (Catholicism and Orthodoxy) became Muslims. The Catholic Church does not remember even to Africa and Asia that one nation converted from Catholicism to Islam and interestingly, very quickly. I read the various authors who have written about this phenomenon, however, they only note of the state (converting to Islam) but they don't write about reasons why one Christian nation renounced (and so quickly ) the faith of their fathers and grandfathers in favor of Islam.

The key findings, however, are reasons. There must be something deep within the Albanian beings (culture, values, assumptions, beliefs, genetics, origins, customs etc.) which ruled that the Albanians turned to religion Ottoman conquerors. What is interesting young Albanians converted to Islam massively in almost all areas irrespective of region and tribe. It happened that in same house living fathers/grandfathers Christians and sons and their children Muslims. The Catholic Church could not even imagine that in a short time losing the entire dioceses.

Zemra
27-11-13, 03:49
The facts remains. Albanians are the only nations in Europe and beyond who are after paganism and to Christianity (Catholicism and Orthodoxy) became Muslims. The Catholic Church does not remember even to Africa and Asia that one nation converted from Catholicism to Islam and interestingly, very quickly. I read the various authors who have written about this phenomenon, however, they only note of the state (converting to Islam) but they don't write about reasons why one Christian nation renounced (and so quickly ) the faith of their fathers and grandfathers in favor of Islam.

The key findings, however, are reasons. There must be something deep within the Albanian beings (culture, values, assumptions, beliefs, genetics, origins, customs etc.) which ruled that the Albanians turned to religion Ottoman conquerors. What is interesting young Albanians converted to Islam massively in almost all areas irrespective of region and tribe. It happened that in same house living fathers/grandfathers Christians and sons and their children Muslims. The Catholic Church could not even imagine that in a short time losing the entire dioceses.

For the part in your comment I bolded read answer 3)

1) Defensive reasons. The first one and arguably the largest was the ravagin of the country after Skandebeg's death because "It was the sultan’s policy to empty the land of its native inhabitants, should they put up resistance.".

28 December 1470[/FONT]]In conclusion, I can say that in the period in question, this country was turned into a wasteland. It has remained as such up to the present day. Gone are not only the settlements, but also the people, with the exception of those few villages that have been rebuilt. It would thus be necessary for prisoners who have been convicted or banned to be pardoned and sent to this country [to repopulate it].http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts15/AH1470.html
If you understand the results of depopulation, especially at this time period, it's neccessary to do something.

2) Assimilation: Whenever Albanians are defined as "Muslim" and any Albanian of a different religion it's not Albanian (wrong definition) not "people who speak Albanan langauge" (better definition). Arvanitas, Suliots, Cham Albanians are largely Orthodox populations but only the Muslims (minority) was counted as Albanian by non-Albanians. A large number of Montenegrin Albanians have been assimilated as well this way.

3) Other Balkan countries dealt differently with Islam. This http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/19rwlf/why_did_albania_and_bosnia_become_majority_muslim/ guy explains it well so I'm just copy pasting it:


This is a tricky question, and one might ask the obverse - why is it that Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia, and Greece have generally low Muslim populations as opposed to other Balkan countries that were under the Ottoman Empire (Montenegro, Macedonia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Albania, Kosovo)?With Romania, it is most probably linked to the fact that the Danubian Principalities that would later form today's Romanian state (mostly the Old Kingdom - Wallachia and Moldavia) were never really directly incorporated into the Ottoman Empire, but were rather vassal states. They were run by mostly Greek-speaking merchant elites who held the titles of hospodars or something akin to princes. These were Stambolite Greeks also known as the Phanariotes, and were part of the upper class of Ottoman society. To this day, many Romanians' last names betray this period of Greek cultural hegemony in which Bucharest was a center of Hellenic learning.
With Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria, this is a trickier story. All these countries, while not having majority Muslim populations, did have sizeable Muslim towns. By the time nationalism emerged in the early nineteenth century as an ideology that supported the foundation of these nation states, the majority of the urban population in all three countries was Muslim. What happened to them?
Well, many of them were expelled, from Serbia largely in 1862 after riots in Belgrade and the bombardment of the city by the pasha, but already from 1830 onwards with the proclamation of Serbian autonomy. There are many reasons why Muslims were considered incompatible with modern nation states. Some of these had to do with ideas about the backwardness of Islam and the tenacity of Christianity, supported by Orientalist perceptions of the Great Powers. Muslims were not under the authority of the Serbian autonomous Principality, also because the Porte was cautious in releasing authority to the emergent Serbian nation state. Autonomy at the time meant originally judicial authority over Christians, and then later Jews and Gypsies. The Muslim population also preferred to maintain this status of dual authority due to notions of loyalty to the Sultan as well as financial benefits it would bring. Having a sizeable Muslim population was considered backwards, and incompatible with the modernizing project that would allow Serbs to join the European family of nations. This project was largely spearheaded by Habsburg-educated Serb cultural elites who worked towards political unity with other South Slavic nations. In this sense, the expulsion of Muslims took place through a gradual series of negotiations and contracts between Belgrade and Istanbul, particularly since 1867 when the idea of Muslims as an "occupying force" was cemented, particularly through the involvement and support of the Great Powers. The Muslim population of Belgrade, Smederevo, Soko, Fethislam (Kladovo) and Šabac was expelled and their property bought by the Serbian state, usually for pennies on the dollar.
After the Berlin Congress in 1878, Serbia was granted the Niš region, largely as appeasement for not having received Bosnia which went to Austria-Hungary. There was a sizeable Muslim population there as well, but it was largely expelled this time quite violently by the military-state apparatus which occupied the area. Many of them had fled previously because of the Russo-Turkish War, in which atrocities at both sides led to huge population movements in Bulgaria and the Niš region. The number of Muslims that were expelled or voluntarily fled the war is projected by some authors to be around 250 000 people, but it is tricky to determine and is a politically contested issue even today. Muslims did become citizens of the autonomous Bulgaria after 1878, and its independence in 1908, but many chose to relocate to Macedonia and Istanbul. There is still a Muslim population in Bulgaria (some 750,000 Turks and Pomaks mostly, so about one tenth of the population), and there have been period attempts to "Bulgarianize" the population, most famous being the quite recent campaigns during Todor Zhivkov in the 1980s, which led to further emigration, mostly to Istanbul.
The areas which were incorporated into Serbia after the Balkan Wars of 1912, and the establishment of similar "civil" ideas of citizenship, namely Kosovo and the Sandžak region (which is still part of Serbia today) maintained a majority Muslim population. There were some attempts at resettlement into Turkey in the 1920s that may have numbered upwards into the 200,000 people number, but most of the emigration, particularly from Sandžak, has been economic.
In Greece, the majority of the Muslim population was also expelled during the wars of national expansion, but a sizeable Muslim population remained until the Population Exchange of 1923. As I mentioned, the idea that nation and religion were one was generally a component of early Balkan nationalism, and the Greek, Serbian and Bulgarian states all wound up to be based on this idea. After the First World War (which stretched really from 1912 to 1922 for Greece and Turkey), some 2 million people were moved - about 1.5 million mostly Turkish-speaking Greek Orthodox peoples of Anatolia were sent to Greece and some half-million mostly Greek-speaking Muslim peoples of Greece were sent to Turkey. The ethnic homogenization of these states was considered to be stabilizing and good for the further development of the nations, but had profound detrimental cultural and economic effects that are felt to this day in both areas.
Later Balkan nationalisms, namely Albanian and Bosniak nationalism (but also the Macedonian Liberation struggle) were all based around the concept of language or region, rather than religion, and were highly religiously inclusive. In Bosnia, this clashed with pre-existing Serb and Croat national movements, and although the Austro-Hungarians particularly supported an inclusive version of bošnjaštvo (Bosnianness), this was largely not accepted by the intellectual elites of Orthodox and Catholic cultural movements who preferred to see themselves linked to the neighboring "modernized" nations of Serbia and Croatia. In Albania, the movement was largely successful at bridging the religious gap, but this was a tenuous process (Albania was also only created in 1912), and even in the early 1900s, many Albanians saw themselves as loyal to Istanbul rather than the Albanian national cause - there was a significant Albanian contingent in the Young Turks until quite late.
TL;DR: There used to be Muslims in all Balkan states, although in varying proportions. Early Balkan national movements that were ethnically and religiously homogenous gained recognition first from the Great Powers, starting with Greece and ending with Bulgaria. Albanian and Bosnian nationalisms emerged quite late and were able to incorporate varied religious groups into their respective concepts of state administration.
I can provide sources for all this if anyone's interested further, I just didn't really have the time now and dinner is on the stove. It is important to note that Bosnia has a sizeable Muslim population, but is not a majority-Muslim state. The same goes for Macedonia. Albania has a large Orthodox Christian population, and Kosovo used to have one as well until relatively recently.
Read all his answers in the thread actually. It's worth it. BTW he's a Serbian scholar specialized in the Balkans, so I don't think he's biased towards Albanians.

EDIT: I have to answer this one too

It's always about religion. Religion is what starts wars here.

1. Albanians probably were Orthodox long time ago. What would I say? Nothing... They'd probably be a peaceful nation, instead of being Muslims in Europe. There would not be much to talk about.

I'm kinda confused what are you trying to imply here:
a) Albanians would be left in peace by other nations
b) Albanians start religious wars

Inside Albania there's a lot of harmony among religions, which is not something that occurs overnight; it's largely part of Albanian culture, so if you're implying the second one you'd be wrong. Lots have been written about Albania's religious tolerance, here's the first scholarly paper on google:
http://www.academicus.edu.al/nr7/Academicus-MMXIII-7-013-018.pdf

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3393/4633331134_a2e3ec7341_o.jpg (https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3393/4633331134_a2e3ec7341_o.jpg)
(pic above the 4 religious heads of Albania)

But if you're implying the first one I agree. If this was a playground, Albania would be the most bullied kid.

Marko94
27-11-13, 14:08
For me one thing is always been fascinating. Muslim Turks ruled many nations in the Balkans and beyond. Some member of these nations would convert to Islam. You have and today muslim in Serbia who speaks Serbian, muslim in Croatia who speaks Croatian, muslim in Bulgaria who speaks Bulgarian, muslim in Greece who speaks Greek etc. People converted to islam in Ottoman Empire, of course Sharia low is much better for Muslims than for non-Muslims.

But Serbs, Greeks, Croats, Bulgarians, Romanians, Hungarians etc. are mostly have remained committed to Christianity. Only, the vast majority of Albanians converted to Islam. There must be a reason for converting of Albanians into Islam.
Probably because they were predominantly Catholic, as Catholics are loyal to the Pope.
There are many differences between Orthodox and Catholics, and the most important is loyalty to the Vatican.
The Albanians being a Catholic majority, and in the Ottoman Empire fees for Catholics was much higher will have a much greater impact.
However, according to the org Albania is predominantly Catholic.

Marko94
27-11-13, 14:21
The facts remains. The Catholic Church does not remember even to Africa and Asia that one nation converted from Catholicism to Islam and interestingly,
I think you don't understand.
In that time, if pope wanted to make crusades who tell according to you? Serb?Chinese? Indian? No, of course the Albanians because they was catholic.
The Turks at that time were afraid of another crusade.
At that time, the Turks were afraid of who was "Catholic" (albanian, bosnian or serb) Because he was faithful to the pope.

Garrick
27-11-13, 18:53
Read all his answers in the thread actually. It's worth it. BTW he's a Serbian scholar specialized in the Balkans, so I don't think he's biased towards Albanians.
[/COLOR]

Muslim inhabitants of the towns in Ottoman empire (today's Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece etc.) were Turks, Caucasian Muslims, Arabs etc. Yes, there are local Muslims too. Yes, I wrote that some Bulgarian, Serb, Greek etc. converted to Islam but it was not widely as at Albanians.

We all know that today's Bosniacs (in Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro) and Pomaks (in today's Bulgaria, Greece and Turkey) are Muslims. And someone could conclude that as Albanians converted to Islam so the Slavic population converted to Islam (although less).

Facts are that Balkan Slavic inhabitants (Bulgarians, Serbs, Croats etc.) converted to Islam to a small extent. But we here discuss about massive converting and in a short time. We should know that cases of Bosniacs and Albanians are poorly comparable (and Pomaks too).

Why?

Because today's Bosniacs are Slavic Muslims who converted to Islam from the oriental sects. In the Balkans, except for Orthodox and Catholic Christians, Slavic population partly belonged to oriental sects, mostly to Bogomils.

From Encyclopedia Britannica:

"The Bogomils’ central teaching, based on a dualistic cosmology, was that the visible, material world was created by the devil. Thus, they denied the doctrine of the incarnation and rejected the Christian conception of matter as a vehicle of grace. They rejected Baptism, the Eucharist, and the whole organization of the Orthodox Church " (and Catholic Church too).

When Turks conquered Balkans Bogomils (and members of others East sects) massive converted to Islam. In many things Islam was a more attractive to them than Orthodox or Catholic Christianity.

Today's Muslim Bosniacs are mostly descendants of South Slavic Bogomils (and other Oriental sects). Much less Muslim Bosniacs are descendants of Serbs and Croats who converted to Islam.

For Albanians situation is completely different. Today's Muslim Albanians are descendants of Christian Albanians (Catholic and Orthodox Christians) who converted to Islam.

It is much more understandable for Bogomils and other Oriental sectarians that converted to Islam than for Christians - Catholic and Orthodox Albanians. The Catholic Church does not remember that anywhere in the world some Catholic nation for short time converted to another religion. In that case converting Catholic Albanians to Islam is unique in the history of Catholic Church.

Pope could not act militarily because there were strong forces of Ottoman empire in Albania and Balkans. Soon after the accession of Islam new Muslim Albanians became the spearhead of the Ottoman empire. If Albanians didn't accept Islam (and Bogomils but it is different case) Ottoman Empire in Europe would be kept much shorter.

Key question is why Albanians who were Catholic and Orthodox Christians (more Catholics) quickly and massively embraced Islam. The real reasons can lie deep within Albanian being (culture, values, believes, assumptions, genetics, origin, folk tradition etc.).

Zemra
27-11-13, 21:45
Muslim inhabitants of the towns in Ottoman empire (today's Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece etc.) were Turks, Caucasian Muslims, Arabs etc.

(snip some parts)
Key question is why Albanians who were Catholic and Orthodox Christians (more Catholics) quickly and massively embraced Islam. The real reasons can lie deep within Albanian being (culture, values, believes, assumptions, genetics, origin, folk tradition etc.).

First of all lol at that sentence. :laughing: It's well documented that Balkan countries forced Muslim converts to declare another nationality like Turks, Caucasian Muslims, Arabs etc. Example the Macedonian Muslims, forced to call themselves Turks. The "Turkish" population increased 2x in 5 years (1948-1953), made up from 8 to 16% of the general population, while the Slavo-Macedonian population fell sharply. They were never Turkish, they were...Bulgarians actaully which later came to take an Ancient Hellenic identity and later a Turkish one. But that's a mess between Greece and Macedonia, I'll leave this to them.

I gave you 3 answers.
First was the population decline, lots of villages became abandoned, by forceful movements which brought large economic problems; the solution was convertion --Albanian principalities weren't comparable to the West, but still were good in a standing economically. Albania was good before the Ottoman conquest, but poor after due the the large depopulation. They were only attacking Christians so...

Second was the assimilation of the large Christian population; gave the illusion the majority of the population mass converted--in reality a large number was also assimilated into Yugoslav and Greek populations. Which was also another reason for this conversion; protecting the whatever little national identity there was.

What do you think happened to these people here:
1)http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Balkans-ethnic_(1861).jpg
2)http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Ethnic_map_of_Balkans_-_russian_1867.jpg


Third was the different approach, more tolerant--different from Greece and Yugoslav countries who wanted to appear as if never had a significant Muslim population, because they expelled and exchanged populations, conducted genocide too. And also a large Albanian Christian population mentioned before was included in their ranks to increase the number of Christian population. Even today Muslims in the Balkans ar forced to declare a different nationality from the rest of the population. Albanians were and still are extremly tolerant to religious practices, just to answer the part about culture, values, believes, folk tradition assumptions you wanted. Genetics? Not my field but I've read Neolithic, although no general conclusions is reached.

Origin? Somewhere between Balto-Slavs, Germanic speakers, not much contacts with the Slavs before the migration, but lots with Baltic, makes sense since Baltic was more widespread at that time. No contants at all with Armenian so eliminate Caucasus and Anatolia from any possiblitiy. Later contacts with Greek likely because both Albanians moved more in south and Greeks more in north, some contacts with Celtic but not Italic until the Roman Empire. So basically the origin is Balkans but extending a lot more in North than now. Part of the Roman Empire before the inclusion of Dacia and Thrace due to distinctively different pronounciations of Latin loans, so somewhere in the west Balkans. Not coastal areas though. Lots of contacts with Romanians as well so extedned somewhat to the east as well. In the south the Jirecek line is used as a limit border. It's a big area still, but it's a start.


That was not a joke. Albanians were never discriminated in Serbia. I won't go into other matters since this is thread about Kosovo and you're probably Albanian, so lets stick to that one.

1. I need an explanation how could one minority, that was allegedly treated as Kosovo Albanians claim they were, managed to rise from 500.000 to 1.500.000?

2. Find me a region in which population rose 3x in a 40 years period?


6018
http://preview.images.memegenerator.net/Instance/Preview?imageID=4265606&generatorTypeID=&panels=&text0=&text1=%22NEVER%22&text2=&text3=
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=40791&d=1385529813
http://books.google.com/books?id=aENQit9KT0sC&pg=PA315&lpg=PA315&dq=changing+albanian+names+to+serbian&source=bl&ots=hdoYfUS2dx&sig=UHqo_-rYKQ_lUpw_8UNCYCKT8X4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mpiBUqLDGrSnsQTq2IGABQ&ved=0CFoQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=changing%20albanian%20names%20to%20serbian&f=false

People personal stories, eg stories of little girls having their baby brother stuck in the muzzles of Serbian soldiers as a trophy tend to circulate. Although this was told to me first hand, it's a common type of story you hear among Kosovo Albanians. They still circulate. People felt threatened.

b) Baby booming it's pretty common in post-war eras. A multitude of reasons is possible but comfort is not one. Japanese economy is the third highest in the world, people live a pretty comfortable life, and their population is declining at alarming rates. This link in the end analyses some of the reasons but it's mostly in the US although I can tell you this is valid for Kosovo because I've talked to people "Some historians have argued that it was a part of a desire for normalcy after 16 years of depression and war." http://www.history.com/topics/baby-boomers


3. They'd use Turkish. Like they did in Anatolia.
Albania has written texts in many different scripts: latin, cyrillic, greek, arabic and at least 7 original scripts (still continue to be discovered). Each region had its own and it made it really difficult to understand each other and store documents and couldn't agree what to use. In the end they chose Latin.

http://www.omniglot.com/images/writing/todhri.gif
Todhri script

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/ef/VithkuqiScript.png/800px-VithkuqiScript.png
Vithkuqi

7 original scripts, and the use of Turkish in diplomatic texts is what stands out most? 7 original scripts...http://www.elsie.de/pdf/articles/A1995ElbasanMs_Fig.pdf

Marko94
27-11-13, 22:44
For Albanians situation is completely different. Today's Muslim Albanians are descendants of Christian Albanians (Catholic and Orthodox Christians) who converted to Islam.

It is much more understandable for Bogomils and other Oriental sectarians that converted to Islam than for Christians - Catholic and Orthodox Albanians. The Catholic Church does not remember that anywhere in the world some Catholic nation for short time converted to another religion. In that case converting Catholic Albanians to Islam is unique in the history of Catholic Church.

Pope could not act militarily because there were strong forces of Ottoman empire in Albania and Balkans. Soon after the accession of Islam new Muslim Albanians became the spearhead of the Ottoman empire. If Albanians didn't accept Islam (and Bogomils but it is different case) Ottoman Empire in Europe would be kept much shorter.

Key question is why Albanians who were Catholic and Orthodox Christians (more Catholics) quickly and massively embraced Islam. The real reasons can lie deep within Albanian being (culture, values, believes, assumptions, genetics, origin, folk tradition etc.).
Are you kidding me?
Mhhhh.....i think yes.
Pope clement XI.
The pope in 1700 was able to build "churches and schools", but then they were closed much later by the Turks.

"Giovanni Francesco Albani aveva quindi questa lontana ascendenza albanese, come lui stesso soleva sostenere apertamente. Del resto, si interessò molto dell'Albania (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania), occupata ormai dai turchi, soprattutto per la salvaguardia della lingua albanese e della religione cattolica, promuovendo molte iniziative e favorendo la stampa di molti libri in lingua albanese. Sotto il suo auspicio si tenne, nel 1700 (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/1700) a Merçine di Alessio (Lezhe (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lezhe)) in Albania (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania), il convegno storico di Arber dove furono prese diverse risoluzioni in favore della lingua albanese e della religione cattolica, per non permettere la loro estinzione sotto la dominazione ottomana."

Source: WIkipedia.
And if for "shot time" you think are "500 years", yea , all right, very short.


The Albanians were forced to convert because the fees for Catholics was much higher.
As I said, the Catholics were loyal to the Vatican, so if you set off major revolts by Christian could declare war on the Vatican and make another crusade.


I don't understand your key question.

Garrick
28-11-13, 16:50
I don't understand your key question.


You don't understand, you are Christian and probably your family has had left Albania long ago.

Once Gegs mostly were Catholics, Tosks mostly were Orthodoxians.

Serbs, Greeks and Tosk and Geg Albanians had good relationships, linked families, each other into marriage, etc.

But with Turks everything was changed.

Albanians for a time resisted islamization but then in relatively short period they mostly converted to Islam (both Catholics and Orthodoxians).

After that Muslim Albanians became spearhead of the Ottoman Empire in the Balkans and together with another Muslims, Turks, Arabs, Muslim peoples of Caucasus etc. they threatened Christian Balkans nations including Christian Albanians.

Muslim rule and Sharia Law can be reason why some Orthodox Albanians became Greeks (and maybe Serbs), and Catholic Albanians fled to Italy and elsewhere, who was nonMuslim had not easy life under Sharia Law.

Kopanski in Islamic studies wrote:

For a number of reasons the Islamization of Albanians in the Middle Ages is still one of the least known events in the history of the Muslims.

I wanted to fathom the reasons why Albanians massively converted to Islam unlike the Greeks, Serbs, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Croats etc.

For the answer I spoke with many peoples and of course Albanians (in Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro) between them, but the answer is not easy to come. Maybe in words one Greek man I founded answer that seems to be true.

Idun
28-11-13, 17:25
When EU breaks up the Serbs will get it back.

Garrick
28-11-13, 17:27
Origin?

You can see results, for example for Geg Albanians of Kosovo (Peric et al):

E haplogroup 45.6% (E-V13 43.85%) This haplogroup originates from Egypt.

J2 haplogroup 16.70% This haplogroup appeared in the Middle East

R1b, 21.10% mainly R1b-ht35 This is Anatolian/Armenian haplotype

R1a 4.42%, I1a 5.31% etc.

Results say that origin of Geg Albanians mostly is Egypt, Middle East, Anatolia and Caucasus.

Ike
28-11-13, 18:07
I'm kinda confused what are you trying to imply here:
a) Albanians would be left in peace by other nations
b) Albanians start religious wars


No, it's a different thing, has to do with something I was talking to Marko94.



Originally Posted by Fior Jomina,
28 December 1470 In conclusion, I can say that in the period in question, this country was turned into a wasteland. It has remained as such up to the present day. Gone are not only the settlements, but also the people, with the exception of those few villages that have been rebuilt. It would thus be necessary for prisoners who have been convicted or banned to be pardoned and sent to this country to repopulate it.
But that would mean that today's population of Albania has very little in common with medieval population of Albania, and absolutely no continuity with Illyrians, Dardanians, Pelasginas, etc...



I think you don't understand.
In that time, if pope wanted to make crusades who tell according to you? Serb?Chinese? Indian? No, of course the Albanians because they was catholic.
The Turks at that time were afraid of another crusade.
At that time, the Turks were afraid of who was "Catholic" (albanian, bosnian or serb) Because he was faithful to the pope.

Where did you get that Albanians were Catholic ?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Europe_mediterranean_1190.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/67/Great_Schism_1054_with_former_borders.png/560px-Great_Schism_1054_with_former_borders.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Albania





http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=40791&d=1385529813
People personal stories, eg stories of little girls having their baby brother stuck in the muzzles of Serbian soldiers as a trophy tend to circulate. Although this was told to me first hand, it's a common type of story you hear among Kosovo Albanians. They still circulate. People felt threatened.


b) Baby booming it's pretty common in post-war eras. A multitude of reasons is possible but comfort is not one. Japanese economy is the third highest in the world, people live a pretty comfortable life, and their population is declining at alarming rates. This link in the end analyses some of the reasons but it's mostly in the US although I can tell you this is valid for Kosovo because I've talked to people "Some historians have argued that it was a part of a desire for normalcy after 16 years of depression and war." http://www.history.com/topics/baby-boomers


1. The only people who were threatened in Kosovo, were non-Albanians. Criminal statistics, huge Albanian population growth and non-Albanian population reduction as a result of Albanians terror and atrocities are the proof. As for the unemployment, go see federal economic statistics and what amount of money did end up for the development of "poor and backward" regions like Kosovo, Montenegro and Macedonia were. Why did Slovenia and Croatia make mess in the Parliament - because they were top contributors, and why did Albanians didn't want to participate in any almost any of Yugoslavian business from the beginning. They wanted Kosovo for them since since 1945, and they pushed for it with all means possible as soon as NATO promised the support.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/al-qaeda-and-the-war-on-terrorism

“Bin Laden had visited Albania himself. He was one of several fundamentalist groups that had sent units to fight in Kosovo, … Bin Laden is believed to have established an operation in Albania in 1994 … Albanian sources say Sali Berisha, who was then president, had links with some groups that later proved to be extreme fundamentalists.”


2. Yeah, so do Mexicans in California have no social security, have to speak English instead of their native language, don't go to college (because they don't want to learn English well), consequently have no prospective for a good job so they have 1/2 average salary compared to whites" but they still spawned in 3x numbers just like Albanians did in Yugoslavia. Following example of Kosovo, one day they should ask for California independence, just when they reach +50 %.

Garrick
28-11-13, 22:10
When EU breaks up the Serbs will get it back.

I appreciate EU.

Yes, it can be seen that Serbia will regain Kosovo, it is inevitable.

I don't understand the need of Kosovo Albanians (Gegs) to speak untruth regarding the Serbian (and Yugoslav) investments.

Never in the history (under the Turkey and now in fluid status) Kosovo had no such investments as it did as the Serbian province. Almost all industrial capacities in this Serbian province financed by the Serbia (and partly Yugoslav federation). As Serbian province Kosovo had incredibly rapid development, of the remaining Turkish wrecks Kosovo became modern region with factories, universities, new urban neighborhoods and so on. The best proof is that Serbian province of Kosovo seventies was much more developed than Albania. Albanians from Albania were fleeing from poverty and settled in Serbia. No discrimination existed, I talked with lot of Albanians in SR Serbia and nobody was complaining that he was denied something. The same situation was in SR Montenegro. Maybe only Albanians in SR Macedonia were able to state the reasons for something they feel deprived.

Now is another situation. Albania has surpassed Kosovo. Most capacities in AP Kosovo contributed GDP growth now stands and falls dust. Emigration today from Kosovo is huge because of economic problems. Only Moldova in Europe worse than Kosovo. Albania seeks to take advantage of the situation and annex Kosovo but it can not pass. Kosovo's economy has been artificially separated from Serbia and inhabitants of Kosovo suffer damage. Once the Kosovo's economy again ties in Serbian and Serbian funds for AP Kosovo are activated, situation will go better.

Marko94
28-11-13, 23:22
You don't understand, you are Christian and probably your family has had left Albania long ago.

Once Gegs mostly were Catholics, Tosks mostly were Orthodoxians.

Serbs, Greeks and Tosk and Geg Albanians had good relationships, linked families, each other into marriage, etc.

But with Turks everything was changed.

Albanians for a time resisted islamization but then in relatively short period they mostly converted to Islam (both Catholics and Orthodoxians).

After that Muslim Albanians became spearhead of the Ottoman Empire in the Balkans and together with another Muslims, Turks, Arabs, Muslim peoples of Caucasus etc. they threatened Christian Balkans nations including Christian Albanians.

Muslim rule and Sharia Law can be reason why some Orthodox Albanians became Greeks (and maybe Serbs), and Catholic Albanians fled to Italy and elsewhere, who was nonMuslim had not easy life under Sharia Law.

Kopanski in Islamic studies wrote:

For a number of reasons the Islamization of Albanians in the Middle Ages is still one of the least known events in the history of the Muslims.

I wanted to fathom the reasons why Albanians massively converted to Islam unlike the Greeks, Serbs, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Croats etc.

For the answer I spoke with many peoples and of course Albanians (in Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro) between them, but the answer is not easy to come. Maybe in words one Greek man I founded answer that seems to be true.

If at the time of the Ottoman Empire were Christians and taxes on taxes for Catholics was much higher than the Orthodox it is normal that this is the cause.
Remember that Albania was at that time a Catholic majority and therefore this was the cause.
it is useless to invent nonsense.
And then there are also Bosnjaki, they too are predominantly Muslim, why do not you wonder why they, too, are majority Muslims? Why Albanians are predominantly Muslim and bosnjaki?
The Albania is a country targeted as if they were "Slavs" or "other" surely there would be problems that we have today.
There are a lot of questions and no answers, the only option will be war in the future (not so far).
Knowing that the Albanian government and the Serbs governament are very stubborn will eventually collide and start a war.
War? The war can be triggered at any time (see what's going on in asia).

P.S My father have origin from Kosovo, after kick from Kosovo they go in Albania (mirdito), the family of my father is catholic.

Marko94
28-11-13, 23:29
Where did you get that Albanians were Catholic ?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Europe_mediterranean_1190.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/67/Great_Schism_1054_with_former_borders.png/560px-Great_Schism_1054_with_former_borders.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Albania






"Nel 1271 (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/1271) il sovrano angioino attraversò l'Adriatico e, in febbraio, occupò Durazzo (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durazzo). Nel febbraio del 1272 (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/1272), dopo avere conquistato una vasta zona dell'interno, si autoproclamò re d'Albania (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania); peraltro, mentre stava organizzando una spedizione contro Costantinopoli, l'arrivo a Roma e l'incoronazione del nuovo papa, Gregorio X (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papa_Gregorio_X)[38] (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_I_d'Angi%C3%B2#cite_note-38), bloccò i piani di Carlo, perché l'imperatore di Bisanzio (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisanzio), Michele VIII Paleologo (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michele_VIII_Paleologo), promise al papa la riunificazione di tutti i cristiani, riconoscendo la supremazia del pontefice[39] (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_I_d'Angi%C3%B2#cite_note-39); inoltre, dopo questo impegno, l'imperatore prese iniziative militari in Albania ed in Acaia contro Carlo, che, a sua volta, continuò a fare alleanze con Serbi (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbi) e Bulgari (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgari), con l'obiettivo di conquistare Costantinopoli."
Source: Carlo I angiò.

Translate in english.
""In 1271 the Angevin king crossed the Adriatic, and in February, occupied Durazzo. In February 1272, after having conquered a vast area of the interior, proclaimed himself king of Albania, however, while he was organizing an expedition against Constantinople, the arrival in Rome and the coronation of the new pope, Gregory X [38], blocked the plans of Charles, because the Byzantine Emperor, Michael VIII Palaeologus, the pope promised the reunification of all Christians, recognizing the supremacy of the Pope [39], in addition, after this commitment, the emperor took military action in Albania and in Achaia against Charles, who, in turn, continued to make alliances with the Serbs and Bulgarians, with the aim of conquering Constantinople."

In internet is write "Probably Albanians and few Slavs were the only Catholics."

Marko94
28-11-13, 23:55
I appreciate EU.

Yes, it can be seen that Serbia will regain Kosovo, it is inevitable.

I don't understand the need of Kosovo Albanians (Gegs) to speak untruth regarding the Serbian (and Yugoslav) investments.

Who was to say "albania have Illyrian roots"?
Who was to say "fyrom have ancient macedonian root"?
Communism and nationalism made "south slavs" sick.
You Slavs contradicting because you say two different things.
1) We are Slavs.
2) We are Illyrian.
False statements by Albanian ....... yes yes.



Never in the history (under the Turkey and now in fluid status) Kosovo had no such investments as it did as the Serbian province. Almost all industrial capacities in this Serbian province financed by the Serbia (and partly Yugoslav federation). As Serbian province Kosovo had incredibly rapid development, of the remaining Turkish wrecks Kosovo became modern region with factories, universities, new urban neighborhoods and so on. The best proof is that Serbian province of Kosovo seventies was much more developed than Albania. Albanians from Albania were fleeing from poverty and settled in Serbia. No discrimination existed, I talked with lot of Albanians in SR Serbia and nobody was complaining that he was denied something. The same situation was in SR Montenegro. Maybe only Albanians in SR Macedonia were able to state the reasons for something they feel deprived.


Try to make arrangements.
Many Serbs say "The Kosovo was the poorest region of serbia" now "The Kosovo has had a lot of funding."
Decide, if you say that Kosovo has had so many loans then Kosovo was not poor.
Plis, get along.
Your country is poor.
Do you understand the term "poor" ... your country is to be compared with the Somalia and many other countries of the second \ third world.
If we were not there (in the last six years) that we invested in serbia (because the cost of worker is very low), you surely you had a fall in the GDP.
Remember this, in Serbia there are more than 1,000 Italian companies, these 1,000 were before in Italy and then they closed.
So stop saying nonsense.
Your country is will (long time) "poor."
Your country without us (Italian industries) surely you'd emigrated to Italy.
Serbia don't have nothing to give to albanian.....you understand now?
Read this : http://osservatorioitaliano.org/read/116752/albania-aperta-la-prima-scuola-serba-a-fier
Just a querstion: "Why this serb are in Albania?".









Now is another situation. Albania has surpassed Kosovo. Most capacities in AP Kosovo contributed GDP growth now stands and falls dust. Emigration today from Kosovo is huge because of economic problems. Only Moldova in Europe worse than Kosovo. Albania seeks to take advantage of the situation and annex Kosovo but it can not pass. Kosovo's economy has been artificially separated from Serbia and inhabitants of Kosovo suffer damage. Once the Kosovo's economy again ties in Serbian and Serbian funds for AP Kosovo are activated, situation will go better.


Mhhh....read this plis: http://osservatorioitaliano.org/read/116745/kosovo-la-germania-supporta-il-kosovo-nella-sua-agenda-europea
I just say to you: "Italy,france,fermany,belgium and uk support Kosovo".
I think you don't know, but when one of this country decided one thing, if is good or bad they do.
When the industry italian be the majority in Serbia, the Serbia be a colony of Italy.

Marko94
28-11-13, 23:56
Edit.
I'm srry.

Garrick
29-11-13, 01:31
If at the time of the Ottoman Empire were Christians and taxes on taxes for Catholics was much higher than the Orthodox it is normal that this is the cause.
Remember that Albania was at that time a Catholic majority and therefore this was the cause.
it is useless to invent nonsense.
And then there are also Bosnjaki, they too are predominantly Muslim, why do not you wonder why they, too, are majority Muslims? Why Albanians are predominantly Muslim and bosnjaki?
The Albania is a country targeted as if they were "Slavs" or "other" surely there would be problems that we have today.
There are a lot of questions and no answers, the only option will be war in the future (not so far).
Knowing that the Albanian government and the Serbs governament are very stubborn will eventually collide and start a war.
War? The war can be triggered at any time (see what's going on in asia).

P.S My father have origin from Kosovo, after kick from Kosovo they go in Albania (mirdito), the family of my father is catholic.

You coming to my words.

Geg Albanians were Catholics and they massively converted to Islam (in short time).

No Catholic nation in the world converted to Islam, especially to such extent as Geg Albanians.

Try to find a similar example anywhere in the world, you will not find.

In much worse situation were Catholics in North Africa, Middle East, Philippines, South-East Asia, Indian subcontinent etc. but they kept their Catholic faith even at the stage of life.

In Balkans, Hungarians and Croats were under Turkish rule and Sharia Low but they very little changed Catholic faith for Islam.

Catholic people all over the world in very difficult conditions remained the Catholics, but Geg Albanians in much better situation, very close, practically at the gates of the Vatican, massively converted to Islam for only one-two generations (and became the flagships of Muslim invaders), this is unique phenomenon in Catholic religion history, and it certainly must be a reason.

Zemra
29-11-13, 03:13
No, it's a different thing, has to do with something I was talking to Marko94.
But that would mean that today's population of Albania has very little in common with medieval population of Albania, and absolutely no continuity with Illyrians, Dardanians, Pelasginas, etc...

Albanians are not anti-Orthodox, Orthodox Albanians have absolutely no crashes with Muslims. There is religious tolerance among Albanians so it's not that. In other cases, like Bosnia it was religious.

A large number of Turkish people claim Albanian ancestry, full or partial. Too large actually, make sense if you think of a population movement like this. No Turkish settlements are known in modern Albanian territories even though they kept good documents. The closest was Nis. The soil was unusable (you did read that part didn't you?) and needs years to go back to its original state which might explain the lack of interest in settlement. Animals too were taken away, which is pretty damaging as well. But population did increase once ravaging stopped. So it absolutely doesn't stop the Paleo-Balkan relatioship, but it might explain why a certain haplogroup is more common here than here. It also simply means Turkey has a lot of Albanians.



Where did you get that Albanians were Catholic ?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Europe_mediterranean_1190.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/67/Great_Schism_1054_with_former_borders.png/560px-Great_Schism_1054_with_former_borders.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Albania

Catholic and Orthodox, Catholicism was stronger in the Venetian areas.



1. The only people who were threatened in Kosovo, were non-Albanians. Criminal statistics, huge Albanian population growth and non-Albanian population reduction as a result of Albanians terror and atrocities are the proof. As for the unemployment, go see federal economic statistics and what amount of money did end up for the development of "poor and backward" regions like Kosovo, Montenegro and Macedonia were. Why did Slovenia and Croatia make mess in the Parliament - because they were top contributors, and why did Albanians didn't want to participate in any almost any of Yugoslavian business from the beginning. They wanted Kosovo for them since since 1945, and they pushed for it with all means possible as soon as NATO promised the support.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/al-qaeda-and-the-war-on-terrorism

“Bin Laden had visited Albania himself. He was one of several fundamentalist groups that had sent units to fight in Kosovo, … Bin Laden is believed to have established an operation in Albania in 1994 … Albanian sources say Sali Berisha, who was then president, had links with some groups that later proved to be extreme fundamentalists.”
So you're telling me these people who have seen their relatives mutilated with their own eyes are lying? Well, your answer is yes, despite everything so it's not worth aruguing.

Albania is the most pro-West country you'll ever find, to unhealthy levels if I might add. Every talk in the news is about how to aid the US, EU, NATO. Trust me, Sali Berisha is linked to everything during electoral times, kinda like Obama's birth certificate controversy. It's a publicity stunt by the other party more than it's truth. I swear if he was half the mastermind he's described...



2. Yeah, so do Mexicans in California have no social security, have to speak English instead of their native language, don't go to college (because they don't want to learn English well), consequently have no prospective for a good job so they have 1/2 average salary compared to whites" but they still spawned in 3x numbers just like Albanians did in Yugoslavia. Following example of Kosovo, one day they should ask for California independence, just when they reach +50 %.
You just compared two groups you know nothing about.

Albanians have no problem with learning other lnaguages, but preserving the mother tongue. The average Albanian is multilingual. Albanian is the first language of course, Russian is also widespread among older generation, English is growing especially among the youth population but for historical time the other languages spoken were and are Serbo-Croatian, Greek and Italian. US schools offer Spanish, French, German, Japanese, Madarin etc. It's actually a requirment for graduation to have at least a second language, for GenEd. Also, it's not hard to get a social security number, you can get it within the first day if you apply the first day. All you only need documents to prove your identity, your existence. No one is stoping Mexicans from speaking Spanish, or name things in Spanish (eg San Francisco, Los Angeles), some just don't want to learn English. Some do. But Albanians were stopped from speaking and using Albanian. I linked you the proof you chose to ignore it because you said (paraphrasing) "I refuse to accept Albanians as victims, I prefer my country's most definitely unbiased media to feed me information".

You're comparing people who have possibilities but don't want (MX) with people who don't have possibilities but want (AL).


Basically, between Serbian and Albanian Christians were not a significant disputes. And today Serbs marry Albanian women (from Albania) who are Christian (Catholic or Orthodox Christian). But no Muslim Albanian women, because Islam forbids Muslim woman to marry a non-Muslim.

The problem of Serbs and Albanians overwhelmingly is religious, not national: Serbs are almost all Christians (mostly Orthodox and Protestants), Albanians are mostly Sunny Muslims. For example when the Turkish prime minister says “Turkey is Kosovo” and Albanians are supported him, in essence, he certainly has in his head new Balkan neo-Ottoman order, and refers to the religious brotherhood of Turks and Albanians, the brotherhood of faith.

According to the Qur'an all Muslims belong to one community Ummah. Muslims belong Ummah and have an obligation to each other even if do not know each other and live on the two ends of the world. Although, for example, an Albanian Muslim and a Christian Serb years good buddy, tomorrow to experience a Muslim Turk, whom the Albanian had never seen in his life, he has to stand on side of the Turk against fellow Serb, from which a lifetime mate. Simply by required a Muslim religious rules. Greeks, Serbs, Hungarians and other nations well acquainted Muslim rules and laws (Shari’ah) during the reign of Ottoman Empire.

Basically There are no problems between Albanians of any religion so why the problem should it be between Muslim Albanians and Serb Orthodox instead of Serbs and Albanians. If you think Christian Albanians sympathise with Serbs for being Christian you're wrong. It's national not religious.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stephen-schwartz/how-albanias-religious-mix-offers-an-example-for-the-rest-of-the-world_b_2199921.html
http://www.speroforum.com/a/GXPUBSPXYU24/73316-Albania-celebrates-100-years-of-religious-tolerance
http://www.academicus.edu.al/nr7/Academicus-MMXIII-7-013-018.pdf
http://www.unesco.org/new/en/venice/about-this-office/single-view/news/island_of_peace_documentary_on_religious_coexisten ce_in_albania/
http://books.google.com/books?id=wMhg8VwMs7QC&pg=PA95&lpg=PA95&dq=albanian+religious+tolerance&source=bl&ots=6Xo6CcbARU&sig=9YYOwK7eYI_fz8cdckigfDxVfP8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=k8GXUsyqNdTdoAS6loCICA&ved=0CEcQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=albanian%20religious%20tolerance&f=false
http://shkoder.blogspot.com/2007/11/is-there-religious-harmony-in-shkoder.html
https://s3.amazonaws.com/caa-production/attachments/75/C_Pages30to33_Melady_-_Albania.pdf?1366918858
http://www.refworld.org/pdfid/50c05ac62.pdf
http://www.mcser.org/images/stories/2_journal/mjss_september_2012/nuredin%20ei.pdf
http://www.ncbuy.com/reference/country/backgrounds.html?code=al&sec=religiousfree
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2011/04/13/2003500647
etc.

You know about Islam more than Albanians which supposedly is an Islamic country. Living here all you said it's news to me. Of course, you're assuming a lot of Albanians society, like actually giving a damn about religion, or not being a secular; state is separaed from religion.

Albanians more willing to let go of past disputes and for a healthier relationship with Serbia, but Serbians don't seem to reciprocate that. I blame the media for everything.
http://www.bezbednost.org/BCSP-News/5153/Perceptions-of-Albania-in-Serbian-media-are.shtml



1. Albanians are mix of many HG's. There is a lot of R1a, R1b, I and J, especially on the Albanian plains. Those territories have been inhabited by Phoenicians and Illyrians. A lot of tribes passed through there, Thracian, Celtic, Doric, Macedonian... During medieval times House of Anjou held territories of Albania, which was a gathering point for crusaders coming from Sardinia, Corsica, Naples or through Italy. High percentage of E-V13 among Albanian speakers is pure coincidence, and it is ridiculous to call E-V13 an Albanian marker. FWIW, there is still no evidence that E-V13 has been on Balkans before Turks.

2. Civilians ? Indeed nice civilians :) I guess every European country would like civilians like this to cross their borders?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cczXklpCo4

I honestly can't even think of linguistic influence of the Anjou. Venetians were different though.

E-V13 is basically absent outside Europe except for places conquered by Ancient Greeks so it certanly was here before Turks. The Turks are high on East Asian influence absent in Albanians. R1b is Western European. R1a is Eastern European. I is European. J sublcades in Albanians case are locked in Europe http://thegeneticatlas.com/J2b.png .

Albanian are Indo-Europeans so no relations with Turkic speakers. Or Caucasian speakers. Or some sort of relationship with Armenian even loanwords from Armenian or vice-versa, but nothing because these groups of people never contaced each other. On the other hand Albanian shows a strong relationship with Northern Indo-European languages (eg the significantly large woodstock vocabulary shares with Germanic langauges), yet it was definitely part of the Roman Empire since 2nd century BC at least (preserves Latin traits of this time period).

Can you have a decent conversation without denying your faults? Instead of just poitning fingers to others to blame? This is why the realtionship between the two groups of people can't improve; whenever one is willing despite differences, the others just dehumanzies the other to prove itself better. I can simply post pictures of Srebenica and do the same to you.

When it comes to Albanians, not the ones in the internet, the ones in real life, there's something that holds true no matter what your media says. The first, Kosovo Albanians unanimously felt opressed during Serbian rule. Felt is the keyword, so it's not worth posting what Croatia did to Yugoslavia. Second, they are divided on the relationships between the people. Some truly do want the other to dissappear. But majority of people are willing to start good relationship with Serbs despite everything, they just want their life to normalize, about 3/5 people in Kosovo (keep in mind they experienced more damage), 4/5 in Albania want peace with Serbians. However the amount of Serbians who want the same with Albanians is unproportionaly low. About 1/25 to 1/30 from my experience. It's a lot easier with Serbs born in immigration to be honest. Same with Albanians I would say, but it's such a big increase among Serbs it's worth noting.

Ike
29-11-13, 03:14
"Nel 1271 (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/1271) il sovrano angioino attraversò l'Adriatico e, in febbraio, occupò Durazzo (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durazzo). Nel febbraio del 1272 (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/1272), dopo avere conquistato una vasta zona dell'interno, si autoproclamò re d'Albania (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania); peraltro, mentre stava organizzando una spedizione contro Costantinopoli, l'arrivo a Roma e l'incoronazione del nuovo papa, Gregorio X (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papa_Gregorio_X)[38] (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_I_d'Angi%C3%B2#cite_note-38), bloccò i piani di Carlo, perché l'imperatore di Bisanzio (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisanzio), Michele VIII Paleologo (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michele_VIII_Paleologo), promise al papa la riunificazione di tutti i cristiani, riconoscendo la supremazia del pontefice[39] (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_I_d'Angi%C3%B2#cite_note-39); inoltre, dopo questo impegno, l'imperatore prese iniziative militari in Albania ed in Acaia contro Carlo, che, a sua volta, continuò a fare alleanze con Serbi (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbi) e Bulgari (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgari), con l'obiettivo di conquistare Costantinopoli."
Source: Carlo I angiò.

Translate in english.
""In 1271 the Angevin king crossed the Adriatic, and in February, occupied Durazzo. In February 1272, after having conquered a vast area of the interior, proclaimed himself king of Albania, however, while he was organizing an expedition against Constantinople, the arrival in Rome and the coronation of the new pope, Gregory X [38], blocked the plans of Charles, because the Byzantine Emperor, Michael VIII Palaeologus, the pope promised the reunification of all Christians, recognizing the supremacy of the Pope [39], in addition, after this commitment, the emperor took military action in Albania and in Achaia against Charles, who, in turn, continued to make alliances with the Serbs and Bulgarians, with the aim of conquering Constantinople."

In internet is write "Probably Albanians and few Slavs were the only Catholics."

This says nothing about population of todays Albania being catholic.



Who was to say "fyrom have ancient macedonian root"?
Communism and nationalism made "south slavs" sick.
You Slavs contradicting because you say two different things.
1) We are Slavs.
2) We are Illyrian.
False statements by Albanian ....... yes yes.


Where have you heard that? It is stupid. Nowhere is Yugoslavia was anyone making serious statements of those kind (in the books, on TV or newspapers).
On the other hand Albanians do make them. They make them too often, and they talk like there is no shadow of a doubt, while in fact it's just a wild theory.



Try to make arrangements.
Many Serbs say "The Kosovo was the poorest region of serbia" now "The Kosovo has had a lot of funding."
Decide, if you say that Kosovo has had so many loans then Kosovo was not poor.
The two are not mutually exclusive. Don't try to play smart. It's a classical false dilemma that you're trying to sell here.


Serbia don't have nothing to give to albanian.....you understand now?
We're not talking abuot this moment, but about 1945-1990. Of course the situation changed once the war started.



Read this : http://osservatorioitaliano.org/read/116752/albania-aperta-la-prima-scuola-serba-a-fier
Just a querstion: "Why this serb are in Albania?".
It says they are opening school for 100 Bosnian children, in a city long way from Kosovo.
It's a good thing - Albanian and Serbia showing that they can work together for mutual good.



Mhhh....read this plis: http://osservatorioitaliano.org/read/116745/kosovo-la-germania-supporta-il-kosovo-nella-sua-agenda-europea
I just say to you: "Italy,france,fermany,belgium and uk support Kosovo".
I think you don't know, but when one of this country decided one thing, if is good or bad they do.

So had Hitler decided to give Kosovo to Albania, and it ended bad...


When the industry italian be the majority in Serbia, the Serbia be a colony of Italy.
:facepalm: This is pure mailcious statement aimed to degrade Serbia, and your opponents feelings (if he was Serbian) and it has nothing to do with conversation...

Ino
30-11-13, 08:03
It's a great shame that great minds and talented people are wasted quibbling about stuff that is not important. Instead of finding ways to work together and find solutions to our social & economical problems, we quibble about things that don't mean anything.


Guys, we are all the same, we argue and keep moaning and complaining about each other and the state at which we are in. We blame our current situations on each other instead of just taking a long hard look in the mirror. In fact, why don't we all do that, because the person starring back at you is the person you should try to convince and fix first, before you do anything else. So, stop moaning and whining because we are all WRONG and get the bloody hell on with your own god forsaken life already.

I wonder when the big bang/creation happened, how many flags, languages and historical differences were there?

Marko94
30-11-13, 21:38
You coming to my words.

Geg Albanians were Catholics and they massively converted to Islam (in short time).

No Catholic nation in the world converted to Islam, especially to such extent as Geg Albanians.

Try to find a similar example anywhere in the world, you will not find.

In much worse situation were Catholics in North Africa, Middle East, Philippines, South-East Asia, Indian subcontinent etc. but they kept their Catholic faith even at the stage of life.

In Balkans, Hungarians and Croats were under Turkish rule and Sharia Low but they very little changed Catholic faith for Islam.

Catholic people all over the world in very difficult conditions remained the Catholics, but Geg Albanians in much better situation, very close, practically at the gates of the Vatican, massively converted to Islam for only one-two generations (and became the flagships of Muslim invaders), this is unique phenomenon in Catholic religion history, and it certainly must be a reason.

According to internet geg are Kosovar and albanians of noth.
You said "Geg Albanians were Catholics and they massively converted to Islam (in short time)".
But if albanians of north are catholic how you said "Geg Albanians Catholics and they massively converted to Islam", you can say "geg Kosovar in massively converted to Islam (in short time)" (and for shot time you intended 500 years).
Not all country have the same past and not all country are similar, the change of religione,society or other is caused by fact of hystory.
The problem is discover this fact.
I find it useless for you to put the albania compared with countries that do not have nothing, absolutely nothing in common.
The Albania was the only country where most Catholics under the rule of a Muslim nation.
So, your comparisons are nosense.
You can find other country similar to serbia (bosnia,croatia and monentenegro) but you can't find country similar to albania,greece or romania.
Croatia was conquered in 1500 and in 1603 they stay under asburgic......yes, good comparison, albanian stay 500 years under ottoman (shot time for you) and croatia 100 years under ottoman.
Unfortunately, Albania did not have a past "defended" like yours.
The Slavic countries had great support from the Russian empire, but albania and greece no.
If Albania had had "great" aid from the Vatican and the world powers surely there would be a low percentage of people converted.
However, they have been forced or have accepted their conversion to Islam is their problem.
We are not here to scold.

Marko94
30-11-13, 22:30
This says nothing about population of todays Albania being catholic.


My old reply is reported for the past.
About albanians of today:


"La World Christian Encyclopedia nel 2001 valutava i fedeli di religione islamica al 38,8%, seguiti a poca distanza dal 35,4% ottenuto dalla somma delle varie confessioni cristiane[39] (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania#cite_note-39)[40] (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania#cite_note-40) Secondo quanto riportato dal sito di informazione Operation World, gestito dal gruppo evangelico WEC International (http://it.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=WEC_International&action=edit&redlink=1)[41] (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania#cite_note-41), sarebbero invece i cristiani ad essere maggioranza nel paese (41,48%, a maggioranza ortodossi), seguiti dai musulmani (38,79%, quasi interamente sunniti) e dagli atei (19,54%).
Il numero totale delle confessioni religiose registrate è di 245 (189 cristiane e 56 islamiche (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) od orientali). La mappa religiosa ha mantenuto nel tempo la distribuzione storica. I cattolici si trovano principalmente nell'Albania del Nord, i musulmani hanno una zona più ampia con forte presenza nelle zone centrali e rurali, mentre gli ortodossi (Albanesi e Greci), appaiono nelle zone meridionali del Paese.
La migrazione interna intanto ha fatto in modo che si creassero molte zone dove la popolazione si divide in più comunità religiose. In Albania sono presenti anche 4791testimoni di Geova (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testimoni_di_Geova).[42] (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania#cite_note-42)
Per quanto riguarda le comunità cristiane, il problema principale è la mancanza di sacerdoti e di suore di nazionalità albanese nei diversi ordini religiosi. Un problema di natura giuridica è invece la restituzione delle proprietà immobiliari degli ordini religiosi in Albania, confiscate dai governi durante il regime comunista. Tuttavia, in un accordo con la Santa Sede (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Sede) del 2002 (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002), il governo albanese si è impegnato a ripristinare le proprietà della Chiesa cattolica (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiesa_cattolica_in_Albania) (Articolo 9)[43] (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania#cite_note-43).

Source: Wikipedia.





Where have you heard that? It is stupid. Nowhere is Yugoslavia was anyone making serious statements of those kind (in the books, on TV or newspapers).
On the other hand Albanians do make them. They make them too often, and they talk like there is no shadow of a doubt, while in fact it's just a wild theory.


Tito don't said "fyrom have origin from ancient macedonian"?
You (not just you) in may post don't said croatian,serbian and other have origin illyrian?






The two are not mutually exclusive. Don't try to play smart. It's a classical false dilemma that you're trying to sell here.


What? I say to you a example.
North and center Italy is rich, ok? South Italy is poor, ok?
Now, why north and center is rich? Because in all hystory of Italy the governament have invested only in the north and center.
Why south is poor? Because just in this last 14 years have invested (and very. but very low).
If i invested in a place, this place becomes rich, if i not invested or i invested very low this place not becomes rich.
If the Kosovo is so important how be "poor" and not "rich"??? Because the jugoslavia and jugoslavia comunist not have invested.
Why you not acept the truth?
I don't play because don't is a game, but just a right post where all can say the opinion.




We're not talking abuot this moment, but about 1945-1990. Of course the situation changed once the war started.


In a time of comunist the albanian can't exit from albania.....the country was closed by comunism.
Comunism albania is like north korea, that is the korean can't escape from north korea.
And if can escape, they go in Italy.
In all hystory of albania, the emigrants albanian go in Italy,germany or another country "rich" (serbia don't is rich in that time and not now).






It says they are opening school for 100 Bosnian children, in a city long way from Kosovo.
It's a good thing - Albanian and Serbia showing that they can work together for mutual good.


Not just bosnian.





So had Hitler decided to give Kosovo to Albania, and it ended bad...


Think about that before it was given to Serbia ........




:facepalm: This is pure mailcious statement aimed to degrade Serbia, and your opponents feelings (if he was Serbian) and it has nothing to do with conversation...

No, i speak about economy of serbia.
The economy of Serbia is good, but if you keep it up you'll end up being a colony.Countries like Romania, Albania, Poland and others are already Italian colonies.
The problem of your country is "will be colony of Russia or Italy?"
It is normal that countries with a small economy will become colonies (I'm not saying it's good to be a colony).

Ike
30-11-13, 22:52
My old reply is reported for the past. About albanians of today: ...
Zemra said it better. We still don't know the percentages, but it may be of no importance.



Tito don't said "fyrom have origin from ancient macedonian"?
You (not just you) in may post don't said croatian,serbian and other have origin illyrian?
Nobody ever mentioned Illyria or Illyrians in connection with Slavs during Tito's Yugoslavia. It was only said that Albanians may be in some connection with Illyrians, but nothing except that.




What? I say to you a example.
North and center Italy is rich, ok? South Italy is poor, ok?
Now, why north and center is rich? Because in all hystory of Italy the governament have invested only in the north and center.
Why south is poor? Because just in this last 14 years have invested (and very. but very low).
If i invested in a place, this place becomes rich, if i not invested or i invested very low this place not becomes rich.
If the Kosovo is so important how be "poor" and not "rich"??? Because the jugoslavia and jugoslavia comunist not have invested.
Why you not acept the truth?
I don't play because don't is a game, but just a right post where all can say the opinion.


Because you're making it look like one has to be either poor, or to be in debts. And it's absolutely not right.
One can get many loans, and be rich at that moment.




In a time of comunist the albanian can't exit from albania.....the country was closed by comunism.
Comunism albania is like north korea, that is the korean can't escape from north korea.
And if can escape, they go in Italy.
In all hystory of albania, the emigrants albanian go in Italy,germany or another country "rich" (serbia don't is rich in that time and not now).

So, in fact, they could? Give us numbers? Lets see how many Albanians did emigrate.



Think about that before it was given to Serbia ........
I don't know when Kosovo was given to Serbia, but it was probably very long ago, since everything old that exists in Kosovo carries Slavic marks and not Albanian.
Maybe Shqiptars were Slavic before they were given name Albanians, and before they were converted to Christianity? That would explain your theory.



No, i speak about economy of serbia.
The economy of Serbia is good, but if you keep it up you'll end up being a colony.Countries like Romania, Albania, Poland and others are already Italian colonies.
The problem of your country is "will be colony of Russia or Italy?"
It is normal that countries with a small economy will become colonies (I'm not saying it's good to be a colony).

All Balkan countries are 'colonies' right now. Neither one has independent government or economy.

Marko94
01-12-13, 00:23
Nobody ever mentioned Illyria or Illyrians in connection with Slavs during Tito's Yugoslavia. It was only said that Albanians may be in some connection with Illyrians, but nothing except that.

The illyrian is is an obsolete theory, my theory about origin of albanian is this: "was conquered (i think in mid east) by roman and moved in the balkan".
I'm srry, i have wrong with a napoleonic time.



Because you're making it look like one has to be either poor, or to be in debts. And it's absolutely not right.
One can get many loans, and be rich at that moment.


Because Kosovo not was poor i a time of jugoslavia? I know Kosovo was poor in a time of jugoslavia.




So, in fact, they could? Give us numbers? Lets see how many Albanians did emigrate.


Ok.
"After the breakdown of the communist regime in Albania in 1990, Italy had been the main immigration target for Albanians leaving their country. This was because Italy had been a symbol of the West for many Albanians during the communist period, because of its geographic proximity"
Source: Wikipedia.
In this video, is confirmed " Albanian's can't escape and who escape he was killed".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a_b68bnIrM




I don't know when Kosovo was given to Serbia, but it was probably very long ago, since everything old that exists in Kosovo carries Slavic marks and not Albanian.
Maybe Shqiptars were Slavic before they were given name Albanians, and before they were converted to Christianity? That would explain your theory.


After end of ottoman empire.
Was given to Serbia by pression of russia.
Russia wanted to conquered all balkan, but they begin to take territory (they used the pression in the concil) and give to slavs country (like serbia).
The tsarist Russia was interested to conquer Durazzo and Thessaloniki for control the Mediterranean, but for control this two port need to conquer bosnian,fyrom,bulgaria,albania and greece.
In fact, according to you, why there was so much nationalism at that time? (1914)
Because russia (subtly) injected the Slav nationalism.
Think about whether to kill the Austrian prince made ​​him a Russian instead of a Serb.
The First World War? It was only a war that goal as they wanted to conquer the Mediterranean.
You Serbs are being used for a dirty game.
Russia you wanted all balkan and mediterranean? Ok, go to fight alone against austrian.

Ike
01-12-13, 14:08
The illyrian is is an obsolete theory, my theory about origin of albanian is this: "was conquered (i think in mid east) by roman and moved in the balkan".
I'm srry, i have wrong with a napoleonic time.
OK

Because Kosovo not was poor i a time of jugoslavia? I know Kosovo was poor in a time of jugoslavia.
Yes, Kosovo was extremely poor in 1945, and it got much richer by 1990. Of course it was still the poorest in Yugoslavia, but the differences between north and south were smaller than before. Tito's government was communist and they watched carefully that no one stands out, so they gave every surplus of money that could bring luxury to the North, down to Kosovo and Montenegro.




"After the breakdown of the communist regime in Albania in 1990, Italy had been the main immigration target for Albanians leaving their country. This was because Italy had been a symbol of the West for many Albanians during the communist period, because of its geographic proximity"
Source: Wikipedia.
In this video, is confirmed " Albanian's can't escape and who escape he was killed".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a_b68bnIrM

Yes I know that they couldn't have escaped to foreign countries, but the problem is that Hoxha saw Kosovo as part of Albania.
I'm interested only in those numbers - Albanian citizens that crossed the border of Yugoslavia.




After end of ottoman empire.
Was given to Serbia by pression of russia.


And before Ottomans who was on Kosovo? Bulgarians?

Marko94
02-12-13, 15:51
Yes I know that they couldn't have escaped to foreign countries, but the problem is that Hoxha saw Kosovo as part of Albania.
I'm interested only in those numbers - Albanian citizens that crossed the border of Yugoslavia.

Man, i think you don't understand.
If your governament decides to close the borders, you can't go anywhere.
And before of comunism, albanian go to USA (like all country european).
Before of albanian comunism and after albanian comunism your country was poor.




And before Ottomans who was on Kosovo? Bulgarians?
Mhhh you can "confimed" in a time existed the ideology about nation? Before of 1400 exist ideology of nation? I think no, exist the feudal systems (mid age), but not "the nation or nationality".
The kosovo was conquer in 1200 by serbs, but before of conquest was a part of bulgarians (conquer in 850).

Ike
03-12-13, 16:21
Man, i think you don't understand.
If your governament decides to close the borders, you can't go anywhere.
And before of comunism, albanian go to USA (like all country european).
Before of albanian comunism and after albanian comunism your country was poor.

All Balkan countries are poor.



Mhhh you can "confimed" in a time existed the ideology about nation? Before of 1400 exist ideology of nation? I think no, exist the feudal systems (mid age), but not "the nation or nationality".

Who said anything about nations?


The kosovo was conquer in 1200 by serbs, but before of conquest was a part of bulgarians (conquer in 850).

1.What do you mean conquered? I'm not asking you who ruled Kosovo, but what people lived there?
There is no mention of Albanian language, people, kingdom, monuments on Kosovo before Bulgarians.
Why does it mention Slavs and Serbs on those territories?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Bulgaria-(893-927)-TsarSimeon-byTodorBozhinov.png

2. Why were Illyria and Epirus divided 2000 years ago, among the line of Tosk and Gheg dialects?
And why is Dardania between Skadar ans Scopi, and has nothing to do with Kosovo?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Post_Roman_Balkans.jpg
You can see Justiniana Secunda all up there in Moesia Superior.


We can see that Kosovo is separated from Albanina by massive mountain chains on South and East:
http://www.turkey-visit.com/map/kosovo/kosovo_terrain_map.jpg
http://www.history-map.com/picture/003/pictures/Kosovo-001.jpg

3. Why did census show a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bulgaria_Simeon_I_(893-927).svgnegliable number of Albanians on Balkans before Turks? All I see is Slavs around Thessalia in mid 6th century, and mentioning of Thodemir in 479 (which sounds Slavic).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Kosovo_history

441: Invasion of Huns into Illyria.
479: Ulpiana is destroyed. King Theodemir sent his son Theodoric the Great with 3,000 soldiers to destroy the city.
517: A "great barbarian incursion"
518: Earthquake, destroying 24 strongholds in Dardania.
535–565: Emperor Justinian I (r. 527–565) rebuilt Ulpiana, naming it Justiniana Secunda after founding Justiniana Prima in 535.
Slavs are mentioned in the Balkans during Justinian I rule (527–565), when eventually up to 100,000 Slavs raided Thessalonica.

Marko94
03-12-13, 18:42
All Balkan countries are poor.

Greece is an exeption.




Who said anything about nations?

You have said "And before", and i have answer to you "Before don't exist ideology about nation and natiolity".



1.What do you mean conquered? I'm not asking you who ruled Kosovo, but what people lived there?
There is no mention of Albanian language, people, kingdom, monuments on Kosovo before Bulgarians.
Why does it mention Slavs and Serbs on those territories?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Bulgaria-(893-927)-TsarSimeon-byTodorBozhinov.png

Don't exist a metion about albanian before of 1400, but they exist (if you don't know).
When slavs enter in balkan was 600.
Albanian were also in roman empire because the language albanian have a majority words latin.




2. Why were Illyria and Epirus divided 2000 years ago, among the line of Tosk and Gheg dialects?
And why is Dardania between Skadar ans Scopi, and has nothing to do with Kosovo?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Post_Roman_Balkans.jpg
You can see Justiniana Secunda all up there in Moesia Superior.





We can see that Kosovo is separated from Albanina by massive mountain chains on South and East:
http://www.turkey-visit.com/map/kosovo/kosovo_terrain_map.jpg
http://www.history-map.com/picture/003/pictures/Kosovo-001.jpg


I don't understand what you wanted to say.
Just because is divided by moutain the albanian can't go to Kosovo? Aaaaa, ok, now explain to me how slavs "surpass" the ural moutains.




3. Why did census show a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bulgaria_Simeon_I_(893-927).svgnegliable number of Albanians on Balkans before Turks? All I see is Slavs around Thessalia in mid 6th century, and mentioning of Thodemir in 479 (which sounds Slavic).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Kosovo_history

441: Invasion of Huns into Illyria.
479: Ulpiana is destroyed. King Theodemir sent his son Theodoric the Great with 3,000 soldiers to destroy the city.
517: A "great barbarian incursion"
518: Earthquake, destroying 24 strongholds in Dardania.
535–565: Emperor Justinian I (r. 527–565) rebuilt Ulpiana, naming it Justiniana Secunda after founding Justiniana Prima in 535.
Slavs are mentioned in the Balkans during Justinian I rule (527–565), when eventually up to 100,000 Slavs raided Thessalonica.
[/QUOTE]

Why the venetian think Montenegro is country populated by albanian???
Why language albanian is the only with a "culture latin"?
Albanian don't exist before of 1400 because they change a name of nation and nationality.
I have another question for you.
In europe all is "write" (script) about invasion or emigrants.
Why don't is "erite" nothing about emigrants "albanians"?
If albanian enter after the slavs, why the slavs or greek don't write nothing this "newcomer"?

Ike
03-12-13, 19:46
Greece is an exeption.
Greece is in enormous debt.


You have said "And before", and i have answer to you "Before don't exist ideology about nation and natiolity".
Not true. I've never mentioned nations or natioanlity.


Don't exist a metion about albanian before of 1400, but they exist (if you don't know).
They could have existed. I'm asking you for proofs. Do you think we should believe just your words?


When slavs enter in balkan was 600. Yes, it is assumed to be the period of last Slavic migration to Balkans.


Albanian were also in roman empire because the language albanian have a majority words latin.
Or maybe some other people (African, Celtic, Old-European, whicheverr) were in Roman empire, and they spoke latin, but then came Albanians (from somewhere)and subdued them.



I don't understand what you wanted to say.
Just because is divided by moutain the albanian can't go to Kosovo? Aaaaa, ok, now explain to me how slavs "surpass" the ural moutains.

Hm? Between Ural and Caspian sea? Let's say near Volgograd?
You know what I wanted to say - Albanians crossed that mountain gorges in recent history. Albanian language was not spoken on Kosovo before Turks. Bring up just one evidence that it was.


Why the venetian think Montenegro is country populated by albanian???
Why language albanian is the only with a "culture latin"?
Albanian don't exist before of 1400 because they change a name of nation and nationality.


Because both Montenegro coastline was also inhabited by Normans some 8 centuries ago. The only difference is geographical, because they couldn't have gone up to Montenegro mountains, while they spread more easily through Albanian plains. That's about the same time Anjou's established kingdom of Albania which was serving as an Italian oversea port for all the Christians aiming Holy Land. That's when Albania was inhabited with west/north/central Europeans, and that's why it has different ethnogenesis from Kosovo.



I have another question for you.
In europe all is "write" (script) about invasion or emigrants.
Why don't is "erite" nothing about emigrants "albanians"?
If albanian enter after the slavs, why the slavs or greek don't write nothing this "newcomer"?

Too many tribes of unknown origin lived on Balkans. This is the list of just Illyrians, and Albanoi is just one among them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria

As for what we call Albanians today, it is written that they emerged on Balkans around 11th century, with armies that marched towards Constantinople.

albanopolis
03-12-13, 20:09
Guys, the important thing is Kosovo is modernizing. New highways, new living buildings, western mentality. The rest is history. Slavs are an enourmous force in Europe. They number around 350 milion souls. 6 milion Albanians in no way are a match for them.

Marko94
04-12-13, 17:28
Greece is in enormous debt.

Debt? And with the enormous debt you "will" comparated greece with serbia?



Not true. I've never mentioned nations or natioanlity.

With "this before", you wanted to understand "serbian empire", but the empire don't was a "state".



They could have existed. I'm asking you for proofs. Do you think we should believe just your words?

Mhhh, the culture? This latin culture where from? Mongolia? China? Answer to me where take.




Or maybe some other people (African, Celtic, Old-European, whicheverr) were in Roman empire, and they spoke latin, but then came Albanians (from somewhere)and subdued them.

Total wrong, but is very wrong what you have said.
The Latin culture was taught thanks to the roman settlements.





Hm? Between Ural and Caspian sea? Let's say near Volgograd?
You know what I wanted to say - Albanians crossed that mountain gorges in recent history. Albanian language was not spoken on Kosovo before Turks. Bring up just one evidence that it was.

Who confirmed in Kosovo never speech "albanian" or other?





Because both Montenegro coastline was also inhabited by Normans some 8 centuries ago. The only difference is geographical, because they couldn't have gone up to Montenegro mountains, while they spread more easily through Albanian plains. That's about the same time Anjou's established kingdom of Albania which was serving as an Italian oversea port for all the Christians aiming Holy Land. That's when Albania was inhabited with west/north/central Europeans, and that's why it has different ethnogenesis from Kosovo.

Don't is a answer.
I say to you "If Montenegro was country inhabitate just by albanian and italian, why is a slav country?"....also the name "Montenegro" is maked by Venetian for albanian.








Too many tribes of unknown origin lived on Balkans. This is the list of just Illyrians, and Albanoi is just one among them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria

As for what we call Albanians today, it is written that they emerged on Balkans around 11th century, with armies that marched towards Constantinople.

Mhhh, you "think" with a map i can find a tribe "called" albania? Ok, i don't have "find", but i find a tribe called "serbia" in Iran, probable serbian are Iranians? Absolutely no.
If i find a tribe in "indonesia","china" or other called "serbia" can't be the origin of serbians because is another culture, the culture show the origin and hystory.
Before of 1800, the name "Italy" and "italian" was used just for sicily and sicilian, you know that?
obviously no.
Trying to say that the Albanians came after the Slavs is false.
The fact that the Albanians were in Europe at the time of the Romans is confirmed by a Latin culture, is very clear this culture, in fact majority of albanian have "learned" italian language with a tv.

Ike
05-12-13, 02:45
Dude, you're constantly writing nonsense and trying to put in my mouth words that i didn't say. What's with that?!


Debt? And with the enormous debt you "will" comparated greece with serbia?
Never have I compared Greece to Serbia. I said "all Balkan countries are poor", and they indeed are.


With "this before", you wanted to understand "serbian empire", but the empire don't was a "state".
Where have I said Serbian empire? Why are you mentioning Serbian empire? What does it have to do with anything we talked?


Mhhh, the culture? This latin culture where from? Mongolia? China? Answer to me where take.
What does latin culture has to do with Kosovo? There may have been Latin culture on Kosovo long time ago, but today's inhabitants are far from Latin culture.



Total wrong, but is very wrong what you have said. The Latin culture was taught thanks to the roman settlements.
It is equally possible as any other theory. Prove that your theory is right. I don't believe you, just because you'd like it to be so.


Who confirmed in Kosovo never speech "albanian" or other?
It's not for me to confirm that Albanian language was not spoken on Kosovo, it's for you to prove that it was. Stick to that.


Don't is a answer. I say to you "If Montenegro was country inhabitate just by albanian and italian, why is a slav country?"....also the name "Montenegro" is maked by Venetian for albanian.
People of Albania has no conclusive ethnogenesis, so it's futile to use that term it in any context except for national state. If you are eager to do so, you'll have to explain more specifically what do you mean when you say Albanians.


Mhhh, you "think" with a map i can find a tribe "called" albania? Ok, i don't have "find", but i find a tribe called "serbia" in Iran, probable serbian are Iranians? Absolutely no.
If i find a tribe in "indonesia","china" or other called "serbia" can't be the origin of serbians because is another culture, the culture show the origin and hystory.
Before of 1800, the name "Italy" and "italian" was used just for sicily and sicilian, you know that?
obviously no.
Trying to say that the Albanians came after the Slavs is false.
The fact that the Albanians were in Europe at the time of the Romans is confirmed by a Latin culture, is very clear this culture, in fact majority of albanian have "learned" italian language with a tv.

:confused2::startled: That's not a confirmation! Don't play stupid.

For the last time, if you think that Albanians (whatever that means) came on Balkan before Slavs, I'm OK with that. But if you want me or anyone else to believe it, you have to prove it.

albanopolis
05-12-13, 05:05
There are many proofs. You just have to read them. The biggest prof is Albanian language and existing toponims. When Slavs came to ballkans is documented in Roman books. You can't move it.