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Tabaccus Maximus
14-09-13, 03:07
http://news.discovery.com/history/ar...ody-130820.htm (http://news.discovery.com/history/archaeology/oldest-bog-body-130820.htm)

The above article heralds the discovery of "Cashel Man" who was a ritually sacrificed in an Irish bog 2000 B.C. [r.c. date]

"Cashel Man" is placed within the Beaker period of Ireland.

Regardless of his appearance, the nature of his death is similar to other, later ritualized bog sacrifices in the Iron Age of Northern Europe. If in fact he is a Beaker Man, which would seem possible, it would mean that, AT A MINIMUM, aspects of Beaker Culture continued through later ages.

Which brings us to the various proposals regarding the identity, culture and language of the Beaker folk.

What are your thoughts on Cashel Man?

What are the implications of this discovery?

Fire Haired
14-09-13, 04:06
I think Bell Beaker who brought bronze to Britain and Ireland was the arrival of proto Insular Celtic speakers with mainly R1b1a2a1a2c L21 they would have first arrived about 4,500ybp. The oldest bronze age site in Britian 4,500ybp Mount Pleasant Period. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Pleasant_Phase)
According to Wikipedia showed similarities to Unetice culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unetice_culture). I know we cant say it as a fact but we pretty much know was early Italo Celtic or Germanic Italo Celtic. They had plaid clothing and they had torcs which were extremly popular in ancient Celts extremly extremely popular.

traditionally naked Galatien warrior with traditional spiked hair and Torc after fighting and being captured and dying after invading Greeks and loosing.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a7/StervendeGalaathoofd.jpg/220px-StervendeGalaathoofd.jpg

There is no doubt in my opinion that Bell Beaker was conquered by Germanic Italo Celts. That archaeologist call later cultures that were Germanic Italo Celtic Bell Beaker but really they just adopted alot of native bell beaker traditions. There was a new arrival of Indo Europeans in Denmark and southern Scandinavia who did not come from Corded ware culture they were the ones that started the Nordic bronze age. At around the same time u see Unetice culture in central Europe both having Kurgens i think there is no doubt they came from the same source and are the source of R1b L11 in western Europe and Germanic Italo Celtic languages.

Not a suprise the two 4,600 year old Y DNa samples from central German bell beaker culture had R1b. If u look at R1b in west Europe today almost all is under R1b L11 so there is almost no doubt that is what the BEll BEaker had and it is conencted with the spread of R1b in west europe. 31 Y DNa samples from Neloithic west europe not one had R1b. Even in near basqque country were it is around 80% today out of 25 not one had R1b. 22 of them being 5,000 years old. So it shows R1b came to west Europe in the bronze age. And what cultures were spreading in west europe during the bronze age Nordic bronze age culture and unetice and its decendanst which eventulley lead up to cultures we already know were Celtic like Hallstat.

Fire Haired
14-09-13, 04:37
They got to do some DNA testing on him. If he was an early Insular Celt in Ireland i would guarantee he had Y DNA R1b L21. IF he does it proves he is i guess some idiots out there would not. I guess he does show similarities to other gruesomely killed people in European bog bodies from the Iron age. Why is it that all the bodies that went in Bogs ere killed by swords, axes, clubs, and all other kinds of stuff, what was up with these people human sacrifice must have been popular or they only put bodies in bogs in human sacrifice. I wonder how common Human sacrifice was in Celtic and Germanic tribes. But many people did human sacrifice so it does not show a obvious connection.

Tabaccus Maximus
14-09-13, 08:29
I think Bell Beaker who brought bronze to Britain and Ireland was the arrival of proto Insular Celtic speakers with mainly R1b1a2a1a2c L21 they would have first arrived about 4,500ybp. The oldest bronze age site in Britian 4,500ybp Mount Pleasant Period. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Pleasant_Phase)
According to Wikipedia showed similarities to Unetice culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unetice_culture). I know we cant say it as a fact but we pretty much know was early Italo Celtic or Germanic Italo Celtic. They had plaid clothing and they had torcs which were extremly popular in ancient Celts extremly extremely popular.



I don't understand the reluctance to always look for another source of Indo-Europeanization in Western Europe beyond Bell Beaker.

I find this especially bizarre given the fairly Indo-European-esq burials, apparent religous beliefs and habits of Beaker folk.

Fire Haired
14-09-13, 09:48
I don't understand the reluctance to always look for another source of Indo-Europeanization in Western Europe beyond Bell Beaker.

I find this especially bizarre given the fairly Indo-European-esq burials, apparent religous beliefs and habits of Beaker folk.

I know If Celtic Hallstatt father Urnield's father Tumulus father Unetice descended from Bell Beaker that is a pretty good sign their connected. The 4,600ybp R1b Bell Beaker samples defintley is the start of the spread of R1b1a2a1 L51 in west Europe. Since 31 other from Neolithic west Europe 22 from 5,000ybp near basque country were it is about 80% today nit one had R1b the idea it came in the Neolithic looks pretty weak. Since R1b in west Europe breaks down into language families pretty well that is good evidence it spread with Germanic Italo Celtic languages in the bronze age starting 5,000ybp in central Germany. I guess they still call it Bell BEaker but it became Germanic Italo celts who conquered Bell Beaker mixed with it culturally. The spread of bronze in west Europe is defintley some what connected with the spread of Germanic Italo Celtic languages.

Fire Haired
14-09-13, 10:03
Look at this quote from Wikpedia

Beaker-type vessels remained in use longest in the British Isles; late beakers in other areas are classified as early Bronze Age (Barbed Wire Beakers (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Barbed_Wire_Beakers&action=edit&redlink=1) in the Netherlands, Giant Beakers (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Giant_Beakers&action=edit&redlink=1)(Riesenbecher)). The new international trade routes opened by the Beaker people became firmly established and the culture was succeeded by a number of Bronze Age (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age) cultures, among them theÚnětice culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9An%C4%9Btice_culture) in Central Europe, the Elp culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elp_culture) and Hilversum culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilversum_culture) in the Netherlands, theAtlantic Bronze Age (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Bronze_Age) in the British Isles and the Atlantic coast of Europe, and by the Nordic Bronze Age (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Bronze_Age), a culture of Scandinavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia) and northernmost Germany-Poland.

So Nordic bronze age culture proto Germanic and Unetice proto Italo Celtic they say descend from Bell Beaker. The Nordic bronze age one is the most convincing that Germanic and Italo Celtic languages are connected besides Y DNA. I think we need to understand that Bell Beaker culture is totally connected with Germanic Italo Celtic languages and introduction and spread of R1b1a2a1 L51 in west Europe. I don't think Bell Beaker was always Germanic Italo celtic i think they were conquered by Germanic Italo Celts. Both Unetice and Nordic bronze age culture had Kurgens huge signs of being INdo European. But i dont know about Atlantic bronze age. It could be an non Germanic Italo Celtic offshoot of far western Bell BEaker while eastern Bell Beaker became Germanic Italo Celtic.

hope
15-09-13, 00:40
They got to do some DNA testing on him. If he was an early Insular Celt in Ireland i would guarantee he had Y DNA R1b L21. IF he does it proves he is i guess some idiots out there would not. I guess he does show similarities to other gruesomely killed people in European bog bodies from the Iron age. Why is it that all the bodies that went in Bogs ere killed by swords, axes, clubs, and all other kinds of stuff, what was up with these people human sacrifice must have been popular or they only put bodies in bogs in human sacrifice. I wonder how common Human sacrifice was in Celtic and Germanic tribes. But many people did human sacrifice so it does not show a obvious connection.

I don`t know if there will be any DNA tests FH. There is an acidic nature to peat, so it is very difficult to extract reliable DNA. Plus the bodies may have been"handled" before they are properly retrieved and so I would, perhaps, be a little dubious regarding accuracy of this. Sometimes the teeth are a good source of getting DNA, but again they too are mostly demineralized because of bog conditions...but who knows?
Regarding the multiple injuries on one victim, reason for this is those communities usually worshipped several gods, all of whom the victim was sacrificed to in a particular way. In Ireland, sometimes, a victim would be half drowned, then half hung or choked, then stabbed..threefold death. Gruesome..right?

Here is a link you might be interested in reading. Britain and Ireland are near the bottom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bog_bodies#Ireland

Tabaccus Maximus
17-09-13, 02:41
Look at this quote from Wikpedia


So Nordic bronze age culture proto Germanic and Unetice proto Italo Celtic they say descend from Bell Beaker. The Nordic bronze age one is the most convincing that Germanic and Italo Celtic languages are connected besides Y DNA. I think we need to understand that Bell Beaker culture is totally connected with Germanic Italo Celtic languages and introduction and spread of R1b1a2a1 L51 in west Europe. I don't think Bell Beaker was always Germanic Italo celtic i think they were conquered by Germanic Italo Celts. Both Unetice and Nordic bronze age culture had Kurgens huge signs of being INdo European. But i dont know about Atlantic bronze age. It could be an non Germanic Italo Celtic offshoot of far western Bell BEaker while eastern Bell Beaker became Germanic Italo Celtic.



In response to your previous post: I do not believe the Bell Beakers or R1b entered/expanded into Europe in the Neolithic. They, like the contemporaneous Corded Ware, entered Europe with the collapse of the Neolithic, accompanied by a massive population reduction of the natives, which happened on its own and without the help of any axe wielding invaders.

A new explanation is required to explain Indo-Europeanization/Migration in Western Europe is because the epic failure of the Kurgan hypothesis to explain the early and total distribution of Indo-European peoples, cultures and languages. The near total absence of R1a in Western Europe, excluding Northern Scotland, does not explain P-312's unscathed, clean passage across land from the East to the West and it can not account for any IE ruling caste in Western Europe. A growing number of very early IE cultures continue to break to the surface in the Chalcolithic. Anatolian presents a problem for Kurgan that some still try to unsuccessfully squeeze into the PIE timeframe. Same witht the location and origin of Kurgans themselves. If proto-Euphratean is true, Kurgan is dead and done.

On the other hand, every continuity theory has so absolutely been destroyed time and time again without exception. These theorists just simple move the goal posts at every failure. They have no credibility, in my opinion.

I 'hypothesize' that Bell Beaker was one population in a system of maritime R1b trading networks that had settlements on the coasts of the Black Sea, Western Balkans, Northwest Italy, Southwestern Spain, Upper Egypt/Red Sea Coast, Dilmun, Meghreb, Mespotamia, etc. This is the best explanation for the various founding events. *The presence of R1b in Central Africa was most likely an African trading outpost that became isolated from its connections to the White Nile and the Western Bank of the Red Sea.
*The presence of R1b is Bashkirostan may be the remnant of a Lapiz Lazulli mining settlement.
*The presence of R1b in the Tarim Basin may have also been 'originally' an early east-west trading/transport outpost.
This network of sea lanes and shipping weight stations was built at least in the Chalcolithic and was maintained by later R1b influenced races such as the later Phoenicians and the later Greeks, etc, etc.

Early Bell Beaker folk are so absolutely Europeanesque in their habits, social patterns, burials and apparent genetics.
The European-looking, strongly built, paternalistic, saxe wielding, single-grave, flex position, milk producing, cattle-herding, maritime, riverine, beer-drinking, Bell Beakers are Indo-European. It is painfully obvious. Twilight zone obvious.

I can only believe that those of you who deny this are either looking looking through the prism of a defunct continuity theory or a bleeding Kurgan hypothesis.

Fire Haired
17-09-13, 02:55
The Kurgen theory makes alot of sense it explains the spread of Balto Slavic languages out of Yaman cultur einto Corded ware with R1a1a1b1 Z283 and Indo Iranian languages out of Yamna into Bashevo and Sinshta cultures with R1a1a1b2 Z93. But the other languages are kind of a mystery both Unetice 4,300ybp and NOrdic bronze age culture 3,500-4,000ybp used Kurgens. Maybe it was not exclusivley Indo European or we dont have the archieology tp find all of them it defintley was major in Indo Europeans and shows alot of their spread. Indo Iranian and Balto Slavic have the KUrgen theory type of origin in Russia and UKriane and r1a1a1 M417 but the rest of Indo European languages i think were hard to trace in archaeology and are not dominted by R1a1a1 M417. So i think they might not even be from Yamna culture.

Maybe INdo European languages are much older and Yaman was just one branch proto INdo Iranian balto slavic. And maybe there was a history of Idno Europeans in the north caucus and north mid east going back 8,000 years which could explain the R1b1a2a1a L11 in Germanic Italo Celts. I think ur theory on trading posts is to complicated without enough evidence. The R1b in central Africa is a very old subclade also found in levnat R1b1c V88 separated from Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 for over thousands of years probably came to central Africa in the Mesolithic or Paleolithic age. So no way is it connected and it became popular in some of those ethnic groups deifntley because of sometype of genetic drift maybe even in the last 1,000-2,000 years.

No matter how u but it European R1b comes from a migration out of either Antolia to southeast Europe or Caucus to southern Russia with either R1b1a P297, R1b1a2 M269, R1b1a2a L23 from 6,000-10,000ybp. I dont see north Africa and trading as a source that seems to complicated. How do u explain R1b already in central German Bell Beaker 4,600ybp and Germanic Nordic bronze age culture 3,500-4,000ybp. And unetice 4,300ybp in central Europe. U dont see any early Germanic Italo Celtic cultures popping up west of Germany till Tumlus 3,500ybp. So many other things dont connect with ur theory

Northener
13-01-17, 19:01
I think Bell Beaker who brought bronze to Britain and Ireland was the arrival of proto Insular Celtic speakers with mainly R1b1a2a1a2c L21 they would have first arrived about 4,500ybp. The oldest bronze age site in Britian 4,500ybp Mount Pleasant Period. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Pleasant_Phase)
According to Wikipedia showed similarities to Unetice culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unetice_culture). I know we cant say it as a fact but we pretty much know was early Italo Celtic or Germanic Italo Celtic. They had plaid clothing and they had torcs which were extremly popular in ancient Celts extremly extremely popular.

traditionally naked Galatien warrior with traditional spiked hair and Torc after fighting and being captured and dying after invading Greeks and loosing.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a7/StervendeGalaathoofd.jpg/220px-StervendeGalaathoofd.jpg

There is no doubt in my opinion that Bell Beaker was conquered by Germanic Italo Celts. That archaeologist call later cultures that were Germanic Italo Celtic Bell Beaker but really they just adopted alot of native bell beaker traditions. There was a new arrival of Indo Europeans in Denmark and southern Scandinavia who did not come from Corded ware culture they were the ones that started the Nordic bronze age. At around the same time u see Unetice culture in central Europe both having Kurgens i think there is no doubt they came from the same source and are the source of R1b L11 in western Europe and Germanic Italo Celtic languages.

Not a suprise the two 4,600 year old Y DNa samples from central German bell beaker culture had R1b. If u look at R1b in west Europe today almost all is under R1b L11 so there is almost no doubt that is what the BEll BEaker had and it is conencted with the spread of R1b in west europe. 31 Y DNa samples from Neloithic west europe not one had R1b. Even in near basqque country were it is around 80% today out of 25 not one had R1b. 22 of them being 5,000 years old. So it shows R1b came to west Europe in the bronze age. And what cultures were spreading in west europe during the bronze age Nordic bronze age culture and unetice and its decendanst which eventulley lead up to cultures we already know were Celtic like Hallstat.

Sharp fire haired! I got these results from David Eurogenes:

Based on the Global 10 datasheet, which has more Nordic LN samples than the K7 sheet, this is how you come out.

Nordic_LN 64.2
Bell_Beaker_Germany 35.8
Corded_Ware_Germany 0.0
Unetice_EBA 0.0

Now a few years later do you have new information?

A clue:
http://rjh.ub.rug.nl/Palaeohistoria/article/view/25026/22488