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Maciamo
15-09-13, 16:31
I have created a new map showing the approximate spread of the Chalcolithic (Copper Age) from the Middle East and the Balkano-Carpathians to the rest of Europe. Please let me know if you find any inconsistency (provide supporting data).

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Copper_Age_Europe.png (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/map_diffusion_chalcolithic.shtml)


The oldest evidence of copper metallurgy is from the Vinča culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin%C4%8Da_culture) in Serbia around 5500 BCE. From there is quickly spread to Bulgaria (Gumelniţa-Karanovo culture, etc.), then to the Carpathians (Cucuteni-Tripyllian culture) and the Danubian basin. These cultures of 'Old Europe' would have included haplogroups E1b1b, G2a, J and T (as well as I2a1 for Cucuteni-Tripyllian).

The Khvalynsk culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khvalynsk_culture) in the Volga region marks the first appearance of the chalcolithic in the steppe. Copper working quickly spread in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe and associated cultures further north (Fatyanovo–Balanovo culture) and west (Corded Ware culture). This dispersal was of course linked to haplogroups R1b and R1a.

It is noteworthy that the Maykop culture in the North Caucasus (from 3800 BCE) immediately started off as a Bronze Age culture, and apparently the world's oldest.


The Iberian Copper Age

I am wondering how the Copper Age started so early in southern Iberia compared to the rest of Atlantic and Mediterranean Europe. The Bell Beaker people, who seem to have originated in Portugal, are mostly responsible for the diffusion of the Chalcolithic around the Megalithic cultures of western Europe.

I am starting to think that the Chalcolithic may have been brought directly from the Near East to southern Iberia via Sicily by J2 people. That would make sense for five reasons:

1) it is unlikely that the Copper Age started independently in southern Iberia and nowhere else in Europe. Anatolia and Syria was the first region to develop copper metallurgy outside the Balkans. Both regions have a high percentage of haplogroup J2. Obviously the percentage of J2 in Serbia and Romania has diminished after millennia of invasions from the steppes and from other parts of Europe. Mountain-sheltered Kosovo and Albania are generally considered to be closer to the pre-Indo-European population of the Balkans, and both have a lot of J2.

2) Agriculture was spread along the Mediterranean coasts from the Levant and reached southern Iberia as early as the Neolithic spread by land along the Danube in central Europe. This is a proof that maritime diffusion can spread new technologies much faster than on land.

3) I long wondered how haplogroup J2 propagated outside West Asia, as its distribution in Europe appears less correlated with the Neolithic than other haplogroups (E1b1b, G2a, J1, T). I had postulated a Bronze Age expansion from Anatolia to Greece, the eastern Balkans and Italy. But why not a Chalcolithic expansion since the Bronze Age is so closely linked to haplogroups R1a and R1b ? Furthermore there happen to be a hotspot of J2 in southern Iberia, which would be much better explained by a Copper Age migration than merely by Phoenician settlements.

4) The Copper Age started earlier in southern Italy than in central or northern Italy. The dominant lineage in southern Italy is J2.

5) Based on all the ancient mtDNA samples tested so far, the main difference between Neolithic and Chalcolithic lineages is the greatly increased frequency of haplogroups J1, K and X, three lineages which are particularly common today in Greece, Bulgaria, Turkey, Armenia and Georgia. This also corresponds to the region from which the Copper Age emerged, which proves that there was also a certain amount of gene flow linked to the diffusion of the copper metallurgy. This regions also happens to be the one where haplogroup J2 is the most common.


EDIT : Since there was little cultural or societal change from the Neolithic to the Chalcolithic, apart perhaps a little more prestige goods in some graves, I'd think that copper metallurgy was spread fairly peacefully by a minority of immigrants, except for the Corded Ware culture and the steppes. The Bronze Age diffusion might have been more violent justly because of the more individualistic, hierarchical and paternalistic culture of the Indo-Europeans.

Nobody1
15-09-13, 20:24
I would correct the time-zone of the Remedello culture zone in the map;
The Remedello culture zone covered an area in North Italy that stretched from the Alps to south of the Garda lake and is def. within the 3500-3000 time-frame;
Remedello culture also had strong-links to the Mondsee culture (Copper complex);

Thomas F. X. Noble - Western Civilization: Beyond Boundaries: Vol.1 (2008)
Similar axes have been found in northern Italian tombs in Remedello, about 240 miles south of the Alps. Before the discovery of the Iceman, archaeologists believed that Italians learned the metalwork technology needed for such an ax from Anatolia, where similar pieces of metalwork are dated to approximately 2700 to 2400 B.C. Hence the Remedello culture was usually also dated to that period. The discovery of the Iceman means that Remedello must be backdated by about five hundred years. It is clear, then, that by about 3200 B.C. northern Italians not only borrowed from the more advanced eastern Mediterranean areas but also created their own original technology and culture.


Ötzi's - copper blade axe / late 4th mil. BC
http://www.cbv.ns.ca/marigold/history/iceman/axe.jpg

South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology: http://oetzi.com/en/axe

LeBrok
15-09-13, 21:09
Maciamo said: I am starting to think that the Chalcolithic may have been brought directly from the Near East to southern Iberia via Sicily by J2 people. That would make sense for four reasons:

That was my first thought, seeing this map, that J2 were involved in spreading copper culture. It also correlates well with West Asian and Caucasian Admixture map, but the best correlation is with R1B L23 map.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L23.gif

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg

Makes me wonder if J2 and L23 entered Europe at the same time, bringing copper age to europe. Balkans and Italy distributions are almost exact matches.

Fire Haired
15-09-13, 21:43
That was my first thought, seeing this map, that J2 were involved in spreading copper culture. It also correlates well with West Asian and Caucasian Admixture map, but the best correlation is with R1B L23 map.

It seems Y DNA J period J1 or J2 was major in the farmers that spread acroos Europe. Because it is non existent in 31 samples from Neloithic western Europe. G2a defintley was the most popular hg in at least the ones in western Europe E1b1b V13 i also think was a major Y DNA haplogroup in the farmers that spread acroos Europe. Then of course they adopted native western European I2a1a M26, central European I2a2 P214, and eastern European I2a1b M423. U can tell by aust dna there was a major amount of mid eastern inter marraige from around Syria into Italy, Greece, and southeast Europe. I cant explain it all but just look at globe3 results (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadF9CLUJnTUdSbkVJaDR2UkRtUE9ka UE#gid=2). I chekced the southwest asian vs west asian their is a trend in western Europe and eastern Europe but Italy, Geece, and southeast europe have their own trend a trend that is closest to around Syria.

Also they have much much much much more than the rest of Europe. There is no doubt it came in the Greco Roman age because of the differnce between Switzerland and northern Italy even though their right next to each other, That means this mid eastern admixture happened when the Italian ethnicity had already formed. It is more popular the more south u go in Italy too. So defintley alot of J1 and J2 was brought to Italy, Greece, and southeast Europe in the Greco Roman age so not that long ago. U can see on the R1b ht35 map that Maciamo already made how it is more popular around the Mediterranean they defintley got more of the main y DNA haplogroups of west Mediterranean mid easterns so J1 and J2.

U know about the similarity with the map of the Roman empire and J2 in Europe. So alot of J1, and J2 defintley came to Europe in the Greco Roman age to find legit pre Greco Roman J1 and J2 i would say go to areas that where not apart of the Roman empire or not that connected with the Greco Roman world like Russia, Scandinavia, most of eastern Europe, Ireland etc. I am really cautious of looking at most of J1 and J2 in Italy and southeast Europe as Neolithic. I am sure there was also some E1b1b that came in Greco Roman age.

How do we know copper making did not begin in Serbia or eastern Europe and spread to the mid east from there. why does farming, copper, bronze, iron, and civilization all have to be from the mid east i think we assume it always starts there. I know most are but Europe was already apart of what was the modern world wouldn't they have just as much the ability to be the first to make copper.

Fire Haired
15-09-13, 21:52
I think we need to get a complete idea of the farmers that spread acroos Europe mainly 9,000-6,000ybp. In aust dna they are obviously extremely Mediterranean more than anyone today except Sardine. If u look at the globe13 or K12b test or whatever the group they call med the two farmer samples Otzie and Gok4 are dominated by it. What is weird is no on in the mid east has even close to their percentages like in globde13 Gok4 had 64% Otzie 59% average west mid easterns will have 20-29%. The highest are in Europe even though Med is not European it came only in the Neolithic. Also sardine people their closest relatives and closest match in aust dna tests are white. How do u explain that if the farmers came from the mid east.

The samples we have of Mesolithic hunter gathers who actulley lived by farmers. La Brana (7,000ybpnorth Spain), Ajv52 and Ajv70(5,000ybp south Swedan) all dominated by North Euro. Not since in globe13 that is the only unique group to Europe and the only to originate in Europe and is assumed to have been 100% in pre Neolithic Europeans. SInce Finnish and Sami who have the highest amount of North Euro in Europe around the same as these hunter gathers. Sami look no diff from French who have over 40% med. The Palness of Europeans so what makes them phiscalley different from other Caucasians comes from Mesloithic-Paleoithic Europeans and orignated in the group North Euro. BUt then why do for example Germans who have over 29.7% med which is not European why do they have over 30% yellow hair which they get from pre Neolithic Europeans.

What this means is almost all Europeans are only half European and half mid eastern. I hope u get what i am saying it is so confusing. The farmers had totally pale skin even though they where dominated by non European Med. All Europeans are only about half European even though they features are almost only from the hunter gathers the paleness. So something is messed up with the group so many tests call Mediterranean. It is the only Caucasian group that does not repsent a certain area it is everywhere.

Fire Haired
15-09-13, 21:54
It seems the farmers that created Cardiel culture and LBK both where dominated by G2a. Based on their Y DNA samples also both probably dominated by Med in globe13 so probably from same father culture. It seems like the same family of farmers spread farming acroos Europe.

Sile
15-09-13, 22:52
Here is all mtDNA and Y DNA haplogroups from the Chaloithic/ copper age. i orignaized it from Ancient Eurasian DNA (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml)
Ubaid culture (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FUbaid_p eriod&ei=ywQ1Uv--A42LrQHlp4HYCA&usg=AFQjCNElDQ6xxDscQfb5wIcDQHTqxy3p-w&sig2=_ju7TzIJjmgdKraOXW7Xkw&bvm=bv.52164340,d.aWM) Tell Kurdu, Amuq Turkey 5,000-4,500bc mtDNA hg=2: H3a=2

Wadi (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tell+Kurdu,+Amuq+Turkey&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl), Isreal
4,490-4,335bc mtDNA hg=1: U3a=1
4,460-4,335bc mtDNA hg=1: H=1
4,240-4,065bc mtDNA hg=1: H6=1
3,765-3,650bc mtDNA hg=1: H=1
Total mtDNA hg=4: H=3(H6=1), U3a=1

Ust Tartas culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolshemys_culture) Russia 4,000-3,000bc mtDNA hg=17 U=6 (U2e=3, U5a1=2, U4=1), Z=4, C=4, A=2, D=2

Funnel Beaker culture (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FFunnelb eaker_culture&ei=qg41UpbKPM_lqQG_qYDoAw&usg=AFQjCNEeaDqLpJEdmYQw6jmYXoZfdWHhng&sig2=T1ye7HMACoSlD86jR_ZPqg&bvm=bv.52164340,d.aWM) Gokhem (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tell+Kurdu,+Amuq+Turkey&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl), Swedan
3,500-2,500bc mtDNA hg=3: T2b=1, H=1, J=1
3,200-2,800bc mtDNA hg=1: H1=1
total mtDNA hg=4: H=2(H1=1), T2b=1, J=1

Otzie (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2F%25C3%2 596tzi&ei=Og81UtPLGse7rQHf-YBQ&usg=AFQjCNGsuvCgqqQFoYDePKbOhTG-O1mNdw&sig2=sacH_Ucn7hKF_Otg_Zwx6Q&bvm=bv.52164340,d.aWM), Alps Italy 3,350-3,100bc Y DNA; G2a2a2 L91, mtDNA: K1f

Cova da Moura Portugal (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tell+Kurdu,+Amuq+Turkey&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl) 3,400bc mtDNA hg=5: H=2, X2b=1, U5 or HV2=1, H or U4(3,300bc)=1

Ostrof Germany (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tell+Kurdu,+Amuq+Turkey&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl) 3,200bc mtDNA hg=7(U5=3(U5a=1), T2e=1, K=1, J=1

Paimogo, Portugal (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tell+Kurdu,+Amuq+Turkey&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl) 3,000bc mtDNA hg=13: H=7, U=3(U4=1, U5b2*=1), H, HV* or RO=1, HV or L3*/N*=1, H or HV=1,

Monte Canelas Portugal (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tell+Kurdu,+Amuq+Turkey&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl) 3,000bc mtDNA hg=9: H=6, U5a1=1, H, HV*, or RO=1, H or V=1

Corded ware (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCorded_ Ware_culture&ei=bxY1UvnjDMi0rQGdlIFY&usg=AFQjCNG8a_yp5nZRFuoQQMXp3bhNuofzOw&sig2=AfH4g3U7kc3hzIWUdaCDlQ&bvm=bv.52164340,d.aWM) culture Jagodno, Wroclaw Poland (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tell+Kurdu,+Amuq+Turkey&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl) 2,800bc Y DNA hg=2: G?=1, I or J?=1

Pico Ramos, Bizkaia Spain (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tell+Kurdu,+Amuq+Turkey&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl) 2,790-2,100bc mtDNA hg=24: H=9, J=4, K=4, U=3, T or X=4

Longar, Nafarroa Spain (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tell+Kurdu,+Amuq+Turkey&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl) 2,580-2,450bc mtDNA hg=25: H=11, K=6, U=4, T or X=4

Sao Paulo Portugal (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tell+Kurdu,+Amuq+Turkey&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl) 2,500bc mtDNA hg=5: H=4, H, HV*, or RO=1

Nerja, Málaga, Spain (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tell+Kurdu,+Amuq+Turkey&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl) mtDNA hg=4: H=2(2,240bc, H14=1 2,240bc), H11a or L1b=1, R or H=1

Corded ware culture (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCorded_ Ware_culture&ei=bxY1UvnjDMi0rQGdlIFY&usg=AFQjCNG8a_yp5nZRFuoQQMXp3bhNuofzOw&sig2=AfH4g3U7kc3hzIWUdaCDlQ&bvm=bv.52164340,d.aWM) Germany

Quedlinburg, Germany (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tell+Kurdu,+Amuq+Turkey&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl) 2,700-2,400bc mtDNA hg=1: H=1
Esperstedt, Germany (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tell+Kurdu,+Amuq+Turkey&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl) 2,700-2,400bc mtDNA hg=12: U=4(U5a=3(U5a1=1), U4=1), H=2(H6a1a=1), J=2, T2=1, W6=1, X=1, K=1
Benzingerode-Heimburg, Germany (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tell+Kurdu,+Amuq+Turkey&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl) 2,700-2,400bc mtDNA hg=1: H1_TB
Alberstedt, Germany (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tell+Kurdu,+Amuq+Turkey&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl) 2,700-2,400bc mtDNA hg=1: HV
Eulau, Germany (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tell+Kurdu,+Amuq+Turkey&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl) 2,600bc mtDNA hg=3: K1b=1, X2=1, U5b=1,
Y DNA hg=2: R1a1=2

Corded ware Germany total mtDNA hg=18: U=5(U5=4(U5a=3(U5a1=1)U5b=1), U4=1),H=4(H1_TB, H16a1a=1) J=2, X=2(X2=1), K=2(K1b=1), , T2=1, W6=1, HV=1

Corded ware Moosweg, Spreitenbach, Switzerland (http://moosweg%2C%20spreitenbach%2C%20switzerland/) 4,500bc mtDNA hg=10: H=4(H11a=2) J=3(J1c=2, J2b1a=1), U2e1=1, T2b=1, K=1

Bell Beaker culture (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBeaker_ culture&ei=cR01UuSYL8KKqgGqrICgCw&usg=AFQjCNGHE0meTJn8GI3H7bY1LYnItUwLmw&sig2=AAbalCTV88KgETbr5q9cPQ&bvm=bv.52164340,d.aWM) Germany
Kromsdorf, Germany (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tell+Kurdu,+Amuq+Turkey&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl) 2,600bc mtDNA hg=6: U=2(U2e=1, U5a1=1), W5a=1, I1a1=1, K1=1, T1a=1
Y DNA hg=2: R1b=2(R1b1a2 M269(XR1b1a2a1a1 S21/U106)
Quedlinburg , Germany (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tell+Kurdu,+Amuq+Turkey&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl) 2,500-2,050bc mtDNA hg=6: H=5(H4a1=2, H1=2, H13a1a2c=1), J=1
Alberstedt,Germany (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tell+Kurdu,+Amuq+Turkey&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl) 2,500-2,050bc mtDNA hg=2: H=2(H3b=1)
Rothenschirmbach,Germany (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tell+Kurdu,+Amuq+Turkey&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl) 2,500-2,050bc mtDNA hg=3: H=3(H5a3=2, H3=1)
Benzingerode-Heimburg,Germany (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tell+Kurdu,+Amuq+Turkey&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl) 2,500-2,050bc mtDNA hg=1: H1e7=1

Total Bell Beaker Germany
mtDNA hg=18: H=11 61.1%(H1=3(H1e7=1), H3=1 (H3b=1), H5a3=1, H13a1a2c=1, H4a1=1), U=2(U2e=1, U5a1=1), W5a=1, I1a1=1, k1=1, T1a=1, J=1 5.5%

Bell Beaker Damsbo Denmark 2,200bc mtDNA hg=2: U=2(U4=1, U5a2a=1)

Tre Montes Navarra Spain (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tell+Kurdu,+Amuq+Turkey&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl) 4,130bc mtDNA hg=4: L2=2, K or K=1, R or H=1

Castellon de la Plana, Spain (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tell+Kurdu,+Amuq+Turkey&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl) no date mtDNA hg=11: H20 (reported as L3)=3, H or U=3, H or RO=2, D=1, V=1

maybe this link will help your german data

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/basque-and-other-european-origins.html

Sile
15-09-13, 23:00
I would correct the time-zone of the Remedello culture zone in the map;
The Remedello culture zone covered an area in North Italy that stretched from the Alps to south of the Garda lake and is def. within the 3500-3000 time-frame;
Remedello culture also had strong-links to the Mondsee culture (Copper complex);

Thomas F. X. Noble - Western Civilization: Beyond Boundaries: Vol.1 (2008)
Similar axes have been found in northern Italian tombs in Remedello, about 240 miles south of the Alps. Before the discovery of the Iceman, archaeologists believed that Italians learned the metalwork technology needed for such an ax from Anatolia, where similar pieces of metalwork are dated to approximately 2700 to 2400 B.C. Hence the Remedello culture was usually also dated to that period. The discovery of the Iceman means that Remedello must be backdated by about five hundred years. It is clear, then, that by about 3200 B.C. northern Italians not only borrowed from the more advanced eastern Mediterranean areas but also created their own original technology and culture.


Ötzi's - copper blade axe / late 4th mil. BC
http://www.cbv.ns.ca/marigold/history/iceman/axe.jpg

South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology: http://oetzi.com/en/axe

So this culture was raetic or liguric as the etruscans where still in southern Germany at that time
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.au/2013/02/were-etruscans-after-all-native-italians.html

LeBrok
15-09-13, 23:44
U know about the similarity with the map of the Roman empire and J2 in Europe. So alot of J1, and J2 defintley came to Europe in the Greco Roman age to find legit pre Greco Roman J1 and J2.
Not a lot though, below 5%. Look at Roman/Celtic R1b distribution in Roman Empire. Once you leave Romance speaking countries these clades fall below 5% in Balkans, not mentioning Middle East. Even South Italy, conquered by Romans is at 5-10% level. Wouldn't you say that Roman/Celtic Y-dna should have been the most successful spreading in Roman Empire, as clads of conquerors? More successful than Js.
We know that G was in Europe long before Roman Empire, but somehow it conforms to its borders too. Why?
Because these were best agricultural, civilized and rich places in Europe and Middle East, and already very populated by successful farmers (E, G, Js, T, plus Rs and Is). That's why Rome had to have them, and doing so it conformed its borders to the shape of these lands.

Fire Haired
16-09-13, 00:52
Not a lot though, below 5%. Look at Roman/Celtic R1b distribution in Roman Empire. Once you leave Romance speaking countries these clades fall below 5% in Balkans, not mentioning Middle East. Even South Italy, conquered by Romans is at 5-10% level. Wouldn't you say that Roman/Celtic Y-dna should have been the most successful spreading in Roman Empire, as clads of conquerors? More successful than Js.
We know that G was in Europe long before Roman Empire, but somehow it conforms to its borders too. Why?
Because these were best agricultural, civilized and rich places in Europe and Middle East, and already very populated by successful farmers (E, G, Js, T, plus Rs and Is). That's why Rome had to have them, and doing so it conformed its borders to the shape of these lands.

I see what ur saying about Y DNA J2. For some reason Rome just didn't spread R1b S28 bu that doesn't mean they couldnt spread J2 why do u think it is more popular in southern England. And u have to look at what i was saying before with the aust dna it is obvious huge mid eastern inter marriage form around Syria came to Italy and southeast Europe in the Greco Roman age. and that it defintley brought some J1 and J2 and even some E1b1b. with saying where J2 was had the most civilized people. From what i can tell from the Roman writing i have read they considered all the Celts all the Germans as uncivilized primitive people they say it straight up like 50 times so i know they meant it. Also so much happened in Europe from the Neolithic age to the iron age. the Invading Germanic Italo Celts with R1b1a2a1a L11 conquered the people descended from Neolithic cultures they were also MORE ADVANCED had better weapons a big reason why they conquered. I am not an expert on those cultures but i am pretty sure Maciamo would back me up on that. Otzie the 5,300 year old G2a farmer doenst seem that civilized to me. So that idea doesn't really make sense.

Also for Y DNA G u should say G2a. Its borders and where it is most popular has probably changed alot in Europe since the Neolithic. The reason is such huge migrations u know invading GErmanic Italo Celts had some G2a and spread it certain areas some invalid groups had more some had less. Macimao argues for a Indo European g2a branch that is very popular in Europe. So u don't know if G2a people where most popular in Italy or the alps 6,000ybp. Also some areas have less Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a Mainly Italy. I don't think ur considering all the factors.

I think it is alot more complicated. I don't know that much about the history but the mid east was the begging of the civilized world if anything Rome wanted to dominate the Mediterranean because that was like the western world is today. Most of Romes empire was in former Hallstatt/La Tene Celtic land and in Europe period. and u know they where not as civilized as for example Persia or the Assyrians. Rome said so many times about how primitive the Gauls where they included mid eastern nations as apart as the civilized world but not the Celts. Back then all of Europe except Italy and Greece was second world they where kind of in the same world as the mid east they could understand sword farming and had been trading for a while but not civilized. So if ur idea that Rome conquered the richest and most civilized then doesn't make sense.

I forget but i think Ceasar used is excuse for conquering the Gauls as they had been a threat and harassing Rome for hundreds of years and he had to get done with them but i don't know. Same reason i am pretty sure they attacked Germans and Parthians aka Persians which both they never conquered.

Fire Haired
16-09-13, 01:00
That was my first thought, seeing this map, that J2 were involved in spreading copper culture. It also correlates well with West Asian and Caucasian Admixture map, but the best correlation is with R1B L23 map.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L23.gif

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg

Makes me wonder if J2 and L23 entered Europe at the same time, bringing copper age to europe. Balkans and Italy distributions are almost exact matches.

doubt it remember when i showed the aust dna stuff and about huge amount of inter marriage form around syria into Italy and southeast Europe during the Greco Roman age. I am sure alot of J1 and J2 came and also R1b L23 which is why its is around the med sea. Also Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 is what spread in west europe with Germanic Italo Celts (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?93100-Germanic-Italo-Celts) age estimated from FTDNA (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.familytreedna.com%2Fpublic%2F r1b%2F&ei=6Ds2UsbPBMfmqwH-loHQBw&usg=AFQjCNHGNKukcPYN6l2imYWWMYG3YFiQOQ&sig2=JKF0PeVFNSKv-CrdpIYB-w&bvm=bv.52164340,d.aWM) totally back it up.

Angela
16-09-13, 20:41
I have created a new map showing the approximate spread of the Chalcolithic (Copper Age) from the Middle East and the Balkano-Carpathians to the rest of Europe. Please let me know if you find any inconsistency (provide supporting data).

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Copper_Age_Europe.png (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/map_diffusion_chalcolithic.shtml)


The oldest evidence of copper metallurgy is from the Vinča culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin%C4%8Da_culture) in Serbia around 5500 BCE. From there is quickly spread to Bulgaria (Gumelniţa-Karanovo culture, etc.), then to the Carpathians (Cucuteni-Tripyllian culture) and the Danubian basin. These cultures of 'Old Europe' would have included haplogroups E1b1b, G2a, J and T (as well as I2a1 for Cucuteni-Tripyllian).

The Khvalynsk culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khvalynsk_culture) in the Volga region marks the first appearance of the chalcolithic in the steppe. Copper working quickly spread in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe and associated cultures further north (Fatyanovo–Balanovo culture) and west (Corded Ware culture). This dispersal was of course linked to haplogroups R1b and R1a.

It is noteworthy that the Maykop culture in the North Caucasus (from 3800 BCE) immediately started off as a Bronze Age culture, and apparently the world's oldest.


The Iberian Copper Age

I am wondering how the Copper Age started so early in southern Iberia compared to the rest of Atlantic and Mediterranean Europe. The Bell Beaker people, who seem to have originated in Portugal, are mostly responsible for the diffusion of the Chalcolithic around the Megalithic cultures of western Europe.

I am starting to think that the Chalcolithic may have been brought directly from the Near East to southern Iberia via Sicily by J2 people. That would make sense for four reasons:

1) it is unlikely that the Copper Age started independently in southern Iberia and nowhere else in Europe. Anatolia and Syria was the first region to develop copper metallurgy outside the Balkans. Both regions have a high percentage of haplogroup J2. Obviously the percentage of J2 in Serbia and Romania has diminished after millennia of invasions from the steppes and from other parts of Europe. Mountain-sheltered Kosovo and Albania are generally considered to be closer to the pre-Indo-European population of the Balkans, and both have a lot of J2.

2) Agriculture was spread along the Mediterranean coasts from the Levant and reached southern Iberia as early as the Neolithic spread by land along the Danube in central Europe. This is a proof that maritime diffusion can spread new technologies much faster than on land.

3) I long wondered how haplogroup J2 propagated outside West Asia, as its distribution in Europe appears less correlated with the Neolithic than other haplogroups (E1b1b, G2a, J1, T). I had postulated a Bronze Age expansion from Anatolia to Greece, the eastern Balkans and Italy. But why not a Chalcolithic expansion since the Bronze Age is so closely linked to haplogroups R1a and R1b ? Furthermore there happen to be a hotspot of J2 in southern Iberia, which would be much better explained by a Copper Age migration than merely by Phoenician settlements.

4) The Copper Age started earlier in southern Italy than in central or northern Italy. The dominant lineage in southern Italy is J2.


EDIT : Since there was little cultural or societal change from the Neolithic to the Chalcolithic, apart perhaps a little more prestige goods in some graves, I'd think that copper metallurgy was spread fairly peacefully by a minority of immigrants, except for the Corded Ware culture and the steppes. The Bronze Age diffusion might have been more violent justly because of the more individualistic, hierarchical and paternalistic culture of the Indo-Europeans.


In addition to the post-dating required for the Remedello copper culture because of the fact that Otzi was carrying a Remedello dagger in 3300 BC, there are studies that provide carbon 14 dating for numerous Chalcolithic sites in northern Italy See B Bagolini and P Biagi: http://www.academia.edu/2338525/B._Bagolini_P._Biagi_1990_-_The_Radiocarbon_Chronology_of_the_Neolithic_and_C opper_Age_of_Northern_Italy

The second column lists the calibrated BC dates. (page 16) Libiola is a copper mine in western Liguria. It is dated here to about 3300 B.C. I have seen dating by other authors that puts it at 3600 B.C. , not 3300 B.C.

There is a Map (e) (page 18) which shows the Chalcolithic sites in Italy, including the mine in western Liguria and sites south of the Po River.

This seems to be the same view as that expressed by Mallory, who dates Remedello to 3300 BC:
http://books.google.com/books?id=tzU3RIV2BWIC&pg=PA318&lpg=PA318&dq=Rinaldone+Culture&source=bl&ots=wVq5_-886J&sig=fFd6IZUssYHOoatPjW7K_YzCwJk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qYQ2UrUC1a_gA-vrgOgJ&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=Rinaldone%20Culture&f=false

The dates for Remedello are earlier in more recent papers such as the following, which dates Remedello I to 3400 BC.
L'eta del rame nel versante italiano delle Alpi centro-occidentali
http://www.iipp.it/?p=575 (http://www.iipp.it/?p=575)

And also, this 2011 paper:
La prima metallurgia in Italia central alla luce di nuove date radiometriche, which dates central Italian Rinaldone culture finds to 3485 to 3101 BC.

http://www.academia.edu/1477965/Dolfini_A._Aranguren_B._and_M._Silvestrini_2011._L a_prima_metallurgia_in_Italia_centrale_alla_luce_d i_nuove_date_radiometriche_in_Atti_della_43_Riunio ne_Scientifica_dellIstituto_Italiano_di_Preistoria _e_Protostoria._Leta_del_Rame_in_Italia_171-79._Florence_Istituto_Italiano_di_Preistoria_e_Pro tostoria

In this paper they reference an earlier paper, Aranguren B. 2006, which dated finds of Remedello type copper in a burial in Massa Marittima on the border of eastern Liguria to 3644-3031 B.C.

Sile
16-09-13, 20:53
In addition to the post-dating required for the Remedello copper culture because of the fact that Otzi was carrying a Remedello dagger in 3300 BC, there are studies that provide carbon 14 dating for numerous Chalcolithic sites in northern Italy See B Bagolini and P Biagi: http://www.academia.edu/2338525/B._Bagolini_P._Biagi_1990_-_The_Radiocarbon_Chronology_of_the_Neolithic_and_C opper_Age_of_Northern_Italy

The second column lists the calibrated BC dates. (page 16) Libiola is a copper mine in western Liguria. It is dated here to about 3300 B.C. I have seen dating by other authors that puts it at 3600 B.C. , not 3300 B.C.

There is a Map (e) (page 18) which shows the Chalcolithic sites in Italy, including the mine in western Liguria and sites south of the Po River.

This seems to be the same view as that expressed by Mallory, who dates Remedello to 3300 BC:
http://books.google.com/books?id=tzU3RIV2BWIC&pg=PA318&lpg=PA318&dq=Rinaldone+Culture&source=bl&ots=wVq5_-886J&sig=fFd6IZUssYHOoatPjW7K_YzCwJk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qYQ2UrUC1a_gA-vrgOgJ&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=Rinaldone%20Culture&f=false

The dates for Remedello are earlier in more recent papers such as the following, which dates Remedello I to 3400 BC.
L'eta del rame nel versante italiano delle Alpi centro-occidentali
http://www.iipp.it/?p=575 (http://www.iipp.it/?p=575)

And also, this 2011 paper:
La prima metallurgia in Italia central alla luce di nuove date radiometriche, which dates central Italian Rinaldone culture finds to 3485 to 3101 BC.

http://www.academia.edu/1477965/Dolfini_A._Aranguren_B._and_M._Silvestrini_2011._L a_prima_metallurgia_in_Italia_centrale_alla_luce_d i_nuove_date_radiometriche_in_Atti_della_43_Riunio ne_Scientifica_dellIstituto_Italiano_di_Preistoria _e_Protostoria._Leta_del_Rame_in_Italia_171-79._Florence_Istituto_Italiano_di_Preistoria_e_Pro tostoria

In this paper they reference an earlier paper, Aranguren B. 2006, which dated finds of Remedello type copper in a burial in Massa Marittima on the border of eastern Liguria to 3644-3031 B.C.

thanks


the maciano map looked more like Varna instead of vinca culture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_culture

Maciamo
16-09-13, 21:12
In addition to the post-dating required for the Remedello copper culture because of the fact that Otzi was carrying a Remedello dagger in 3300 BC, there are studies that provide carbon 14 dating for numerous Chalcolithic sites in northern Italy See B Bagolini and P Biagi: http://www.academia.edu/2338525/B._Bagolini_P._Biagi_1990_-_The_Radiocarbon_Chronology_of_the_Neolithic_and_C opper_Age_of_Northern_Italy

The second column lists the calibrated BC dates. (page 16) Libiola is a copper mine in western Liguria. It is dated here to about 3300 B.C. I have seen dating by other authors that puts it at 3600 B.C. , not 3300 B.C.

There is a Map (e) (page 18) which shows the Chalcolithic sites in Italy, including the mine in western Liguria and sites south of the Po River.

This seems to be the same view as that expressed by Mallory, who dates Remedello to 3300 BC:
http://books.google.com/books?id=tzU3RIV2BWIC&pg=PA318&lpg=PA318&dq=Rinaldone+Culture&source=bl&ots=wVq5_-886J&sig=fFd6IZUssYHOoatPjW7K_YzCwJk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qYQ2UrUC1a_gA-vrgOgJ&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=Rinaldone%20Culture&f=false

The dates for Remedello are earlier in more recent papers such as the following, which dates Remedello I to 3400 BC.
L'eta del rame nel versante italiano delle Alpi centro-occidentali
http://www.iipp.it/?p=575 (http://www.iipp.it/?p=575)

And also, this 2011 paper:
La prima metallurgia in Italia central alla luce di nuove date radiometriche, which dates central Italian Rinaldone culture finds to 3485 to 3101 BC.

http://www.academia.edu/1477965/Dolfini_A._Aranguren_B._and_M._Silvestrini_2011._L a_prima_metallurgia_in_Italia_centrale_alla_luce_d i_nuove_date_radiometriche_in_Atti_della_43_Riunio ne_Scientifica_dellIstituto_Italiano_di_Preistoria _e_Protostoria._Leta_del_Rame_in_Italia_171-79._Florence_Istituto_Italiano_di_Preistoria_e_Pro tostoria

In this paper they reference an earlier paper, Aranguren B. 2006, which dated finds of Remedello type copper in a burial in Massa Marittima on the border of eastern Liguria to 3644-3031 B.C.

Duly noted. I have added the Po valley, Tuscany and the Latium in the 3500-3000 BCE period (until further evidence is found for the rest of Italy).

Fire Haired
17-09-13, 04:16
Duly noted. I have added the Po valley, Tuscany and the Latium in the 3500-3000 BCE period (until further evidence is found for the rest of Italy).

It is crazy the R1b1a2a1a L11 Germanic Italo Celts conquered so many peoples including probably descendants of the cultures and tribes Otzie was apart of. If u think about it they arrived just 2,610 years before Breenus and Gauls sacked Rome in 390bc. So the were like what Estrucans are to us. In the last 1,400 years western Europe has been in a stand still no huge migrations . But in those 2,610 years there were so many major migrations that changed the Y DNA percentages in western Europe so majorly. Germanic Italo Celts arrived in about 3,000bc and by 500bc(2,500 years) 50% of west European paternal lineages was under R1b1a2a1a L11 they were more popular than today since the British isles would all be over 80%. It is so hard to figure out what language families existed in western Europe during when Germanic Italo Celts arrived were they descended from what arrived with the spread of farming.

I defintley think that Aquitaine and Iberian descend from languages before Germanic Italo celts arrived. Are they related to each other were they apart of a bigger language family in western Europe. What language was in Italy the Italics came in just 1,200-1,000bc. There was another language family in Swedan and Norway not Uralic and Germanic probably related to Balto Slavic since it would have come from Corded ware culture or up north u could have had a language from hunter gathers which would be related to what was in Finland over 8,000ybp. I wish these answers could be answered. The Germanic Italo Celts spread so rapidley and made such huge effects in Y DNA. Celtic and GErmanic languages had only been separate for about 2,000 years at the begging of the Roman empire but were so different i dont get that.

Nobody1
17-09-13, 05:06
So this culture was raetic or liguric as the etruscans where still in southern Germany at that time
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.au/2013/02/were-etruscans-after-all-native-italians.html

Thats an awesome study, thanks for the link; didnt know about it;

Ghirotto et al 2013 -
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055519

But the question remains; based on the results: that Etruscan mtDNA clusters closest to Neolithic CEU and modern-day South German; How much of that mtDNA was non-Indo-European Pelasagian Tyrsenoi and how much was of the pre-existing Indo-European Umbrian population?

Something also the study points out:
'As for the Etruscans’ origins, ancient DNA is of little use, because pre-Etruscan dwellers of Central Italy, of the Villanovan culture, cremated their dead [1], and hence their genetic features are unknown'

The Blog you link it to also has an attempt in defining the mtDNA Hg's of these Etruscan samples;
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.es/2013/02/guest-article-by-gail-tonnesen-comments.html

A lot of JT and a lot of U5;


Archaeology already confirms Villanova II to be a Hybrid culture of incoming sophisticated East-Medit. Pelasgians and the pre-existing Bronze-age Umbrians of Villanova I (which in turn must have incorperated elements of the remnant Neolithic populations) - and the Anthropology of the mixed Etruscan cemeteries clearly shows the Etruscan civilization to be a Hybrid of Brachycephalic and Dolichocephalic Caucasoid elements;

This all for me manifests the Historical accounts of Dionysius of Halicarnassus (and Herodotus) that the non-Indo-European Pelasgian Tyrsenoi from the East-Medit. settled amongst the former Bronze-age Indo-European Umbrians and mixed with its female population;

A scenario that is also manifested in many Etruscan frescoes (just one example):
http://previews.agefotostock.com/previewimage/bajaage/219cc57b9474f74f441e680b754926d1/INH-558564.jpg

Fire Haired
17-09-13, 23:36
There are only 14 Estrucan mtDNa samples not enough. and if u go by tradtional view they came form Antolia around 3,500-3,000ybp and these remains are around 2,800ybp they deifntley had time to inter marry with Italians. No way do these mtDNA samples mean anything.

Nobody1
18-09-13, 02:19
There are only 14 Estrucan mtDNa samples not enough.

It is 30 Etruscan mtDNA samples from 6 diff. Etruscan sites spanning from the 7th - 1st cen. BC
not enough but very solid and revealing to begin with;


and if u go by tradtional view they came form Antolia around 3,500-3,000ybp and these remains are around 2,800ybp they deifntley had time to inter marry with Italians.

Thats exactly what i pointed out to;


No way do these mtDNA samples mean anything.

The results def. mean something; especially in the clear context of the Etruscan Civilization;

In order to get the meaning of these results you need to read Dionysius, Thucydides and Herodotus;
And take a good look at the Villanova culture complex (Archaeology) and its shift from Bronze-age to Iron-age;

Its all already Archaeologically, Anthropologically and Historically attested; Now Genetics is manifesting it;

Fire Haired
18-09-13, 02:37
I think people trust way way way way way way way to much on ancient mtDNA. I see big time experts make big theory's about Neolithic Europeans from 30 mtDNA samples its just sad. When i orignaized all the mtDNA from the Neloithic age showed by Ancient Eurasia DNA i saw from over 200 in Europe around 100 in Central Europe and Iberia a total continuity with modern Europeans they went by the same basic rules same with the copper age mtDNA. BUt why does Europe and the mid east have such similar percentages of haplogroups and even subclades if the reason why all Europeans are so similar is the same then it was set up in the Neloithic at least. No matter how u put it Europeans are mainly pre Neloithic decended from people who came over 30,000ybp.

What proves it is aust dna were in globe13 and others they find distinct European group North Euro. And when u look at the origin of European palness (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?92883-Origin-of-European-Paleness(skin-hair-and-eye-color)) all of Europeans palness skin color, hair color, and eye color exists in other Caucasians but for some reason became very popular and dominate in Europeans ancestors what i am trying to say is that is another thing that makes Europeans distinct and not from Neolithic mid easterns. Look at Sami and Finnish those areas almost not effected at all by the Neolithic age both are about 80% north euro in globe13 test but they have the European look Finnish are actulley the palest so u see what i am saying.

It is about time they get some y DNA that will get a better idea it is hard to trust mtDNA samples even with 100's i cant really say i have a for sure theory on them.

Maciamo
18-09-13, 08:03
I think people trust way way way way way way way to much on ancient mtDNA. I see big time experts make big theory's about Neolithic Europeans from 30 mtDNA samples its just sad.

It's ironic that you should say that when you are the one who started replying in this thread with 4 posts on ancient mtDNA, when I never mentioned it.

Fire Haired
19-09-13, 00:01
It's ironic that you should say that when you are the one who started replying in this thread with 4 posts on ancient mtDNA, when I never mentioned it.

I just wanted to show the DNA there is from the copper age. If anything i think it shows continuity with modern Europeans but i still think u cant make major theory's on specific little tribes with mtDNA like i have heard people do.

bicicleur
29-11-13, 12:29
The Iberian Copper Age

I am wondering how the Copper Age started so early in southern Iberia compared to the rest of Atlantic and Mediterranean Europe. The Bell Beaker people, who seem to have originated in Portugal, are mostly responsible for the diffusion of the Chalcolithic around the Megalithic cultures of western Europe.

I am starting to think that the Chalcolithic may have been brought directly from the Near East to southern Iberia via Sicily by J2 people. That would make sense for five reasons:

1) it is unlikely that the Copper Age started independently in southern Iberia and nowhere else in Europe. Anatolia and Syria was the first region to develop copper metallurgy outside the Balkans. Both regions have a high percentage of haplogroup J2. Obviously the percentage of J2 in Serbia and Romania has diminished after millennia of invasions from the steppes and from other parts of Europe. Mountain-sheltered Kosovo and Albania are generally considered to be closer to the pre-Indo-European population of the Balkans, and both have a lot of J2.

2) Agriculture was spread along the Mediterranean coasts from the Levant and reached southern Iberia as early as the Neolithic spread by land along the Danube in central Europe. This is a proof that maritime diffusion can spread new technologies much faster than on land.

3) I long wondered how haplogroup J2 propagated outside West Asia, as its distribution in Europe appears less correlated with the Neolithic than other haplogroups (E1b1b, G2a, J1, T). I had postulated a Bronze Age expansion from Anatolia to Greece, the eastern Balkans and Italy. But why not a Chalcolithic expansion since the Bronze Age is so closely linked to haplogroups R1a and R1b ? Furthermore there happen to be a hotspot of J2 in southern Iberia, which would be much better explained by a Copper Age migration than merely by Phoenician settlements.

4) The Copper Age started earlier in southern Italy than in central or northern Italy. The dominant lineage in southern Italy is J2.

5) Based on all the ancient mtDNA samples tested so far, the main difference between Neolithic and Chalcolithic lineages is the greatly increased frequency of haplogroups J1, K and X, three lineages which are particularly common today in Greece, Bulgaria, Turkey, Armenia and Georgia. This also corresponds to the region from which the Copper Age emerged, which proves that there was also a certain amount of gene flow linked to the diffusion of the copper metallurgy. This regions also happens to be the one where haplogroup J2 is the most common.


EDIT : Since there was little cultural or societal change from the Neolithic to the Chalcolithic, apart perhaps a little more prestige goods in some graves, I'd think that copper metallurgy was spread fairly peacefully by a minority of immigrants, except for the Corded Ware culture and the steppes. The Bronze Age diffusion might have been more violent justly because of the more individualistic, hierarchical and paternalistic culture of the Indo-Europeans.

It seems to me Copper metallurgy was develloped in the Balkans by J2b.
Neolithic in Italy and Iberia was brought by G2a, a combination of fishermen at sea and farmers, also trading obsidian.
Los Millares was founded +/- 5200 years ago. It was the time when longer distance trade overseas started in the Mediterranean :
- Cyclades culture
- Trade between Aegean and Black Sea, founding of Troy.
I think Los Millares was founded by J2a colonists who saw the potentials of the local copper deposits.

srbo
23-12-13, 01:53
It seems to me Copper metallurgy was develloped in the Balkans by J2b.
Neolithic in Italy and Iberia was brought by G2a, a combination of fishermen at sea and farmers, also trading obsidian.
Los Millares was founded +/- 5200 years ago. It was the time when longer distance trade overseas started in the Mediterranean :
- Cyclades culture
- Trade between Aegean and Black Sea, founding of Troy.
I think Los Millares was founded by J2a colonists who saw the potentials of the local copper deposits.

You can't say something is developed by a Haplogroup. What we know today is that the Vinca culture of the balkans developed "copper" metallurgy. This was around 5500bc or eralier.
So who were the Vinca people? In my eyes they were a admixture of Near Eastern and mesolithic people from Europe. That means they could have I2a, G2a, J1, J2b and maybe r1a.
But they weren't exlusively J2b people.
BUT it can also be possible that "j2b" groups adapted it by passing the balkans into europe. everything is possible.
And pls watch the Haplogroup I map, it fits with the copper age shematic map, too.

Tabaccus Maximus
23-12-13, 04:28
Allow me some latitude to be a crank here.. (and come up with more crazy Altaic theories)

But let me suggest that cold working natural copper may have its origins in the Altai of Siberia and from thence later spread Eastward with the mound-building, copper cultures of North America, and earlier westward with the introgression of R peoples into the Near East. It doesn't surprise me that it appears in the Balkans with the Vinca or with the Halafian/Samarran cultures in Syria/Southern Anatolia whose identity or proximity to West Asian cultures has been proposed/hotely debated.

There are several reasons to believe copper working started in the Altai:
1. The melting of the graciers left large quantities of naturally occuring, scoured 99% copper ore exposed on the ground. This is important because most copper in later ages required extraction and refinement. No other scenario of less pure copper, much less extraction, makes any sense.
2. Exposed, un-extracted copper is most common in this part of the world, very much unlike the Near East. Even today, the Siberian state which includes Yenesia is one of the top five copper producers. This is incredible given the other producers, including the U.S., explore and produce mostly new, deep earth areas.
3. Cold working Glacial copper and Meteroic iron are the most intuitive scenarios in which early man would find interest. Cold working with hammer stones is how the Great Lakes indians worked copper into beautiful ornamental devices. Again, IMHO, this can only happen in a glacial environment in its beginning stages.
4. The dating of Native American cold worked copper is a clear outlier to the supposed Near Eastern spread of copper working, unless both are derived from population movements originating in Northern Siberia.

Most importantly, the appearance of copper smithing in the Near East is too advanced in its incipient phase. A long prerequiste period of cold working natural ore should be expected. The Near East/Balkans is not a good place to walk along an trip on natural ore.
Metallurgy in any form in most periods appears to spread with R1b people from SW Asia throughout the Near East, Africa, China and Western Europe and with a second wave of Q people in the Americas.


**EDIT** The map does look accurate based on current data. Thought I would clarify that. I'm not sure though if the grey areas are intentional or due to a lack of data.

bicicleur
23-12-13, 09:33
You can't say something is developed by a Haplogroup. What we know today is that the Vinca culture of the balkans developed "copper" metallurgy. This was around 5500bc or eralier.
So who were the Vinca people? In my eyes they were a admixture of Near Eastern and mesolithic people from Europe. That means they could have I2a, G2a, J1, J2b and maybe r1a.
But they weren't exlusively J2b people.
BUT it can also be possible that "j2b" groups adapted it by passing the balkans into europe. everything is possible.
And pls watch the Haplogroup I map, it fits with the copper age shematic map, too.

First copper melting was in the eastern part of Albania/Serbia, 7500 years ago.
Cold copper working was done before that in Anatolia.
That is why I think J2b, they came from there.
But it may have been J1, and also G2a was there. It seems tough that J2b were the pioneers who started farming in Greece and the Balkans later on.
I don't think I2a and R1a were in that area 7500 years ago, they came later.
When the farmers arrived in the Balkans, the Balkans were in large parts uninhabited.

Aberdeen
23-12-13, 15:15
Allow me some latitude to be a crank here.. (and come up with more crazy Altaic theories)

But let me suggest that cold working natural copper may have its origins in the Altai of Siberia and from thence later spread Eastward with the mound-building, copper cultures of North America, and earlier westward with the introgression of R peoples into the Near East. It doesn't surprise me that it appears in the Balkans with the Vinca or with the Halafian/Samarran cultures in Syria/Southern Anatolia whose identity or proximity to West Asian cultures has been proposed/hotely debated.

There are several reasons to believe copper working started in the Altai:
1. The melting of the graciers left large quantities of naturally occuring, scoured 99% copper ore exposed on the ground. This is important because most copper in later ages required extraction and refinement. No other scenario of less pure copper, much less extraction, makes any sense.
2. Exposed, un-extracted copper is most common in this part of the world, very much unlike the Near East. Even today, the Siberian state which includes Yenesia is one of the top five copper producers. This is incredible given the other producers, including the U.S., explore and produce mostly new, deep earth areas.
3. Cold working Glacial copper and Meteroic iron are the most intuitive scenarios in which early man would find interest. Cold working with hammer stones is how the Great Lakes indians worked copper into beautiful ornamental devices. Again, IMHO, this can only happen in a glacial environment in its beginning stages.
4. The dating of Native American cold worked copper is a clear outlier to the supposed Near Eastern spread of copper working, unless both are derived from population movements originating in Northern Siberia.

Most importantly, the appearance of copper smithing in the Near East is too advanced in its incipient phase. A long prerequiste period of cold working natural ore should be expected. The Near East/Balkans is not a good place to walk along an trip on natural ore.
Metallurgy in any form in most periods appears to spread with R1b people from SW Asia throughout the Near East, Africa, China and Western Europe and with a second wave of Q people in the Americas.


**EDIT** The map does look accurate based on current data. Thought I would clarify that. I'm not sure though if the grey areas are intentional or due to a lack of data.

The settlement of the Americas seems to have happened in three phases, with the original wave happening about 15,000 years BP, a second wave that brought the Dene speakers to North America happening about 8,000 years ago and the Inuit arriving about 3,000 years ago. And the first examples of the exploitation of copper by Native Americans seem to date from 7,000 years ago. So the exploitation of copper through cold working could be related to the second wave of settlement, which may also be related to the frequency of R1b among Native Americans in North America, a phenomenon that largely doesn't occur among the Native Americans in South America. However, I think it's more likely that the cold shaping of copper was simply a result of people exploiting whatever resources were available to them. Large amounts of copper were extracted in the western part of the Great Lakes region perhaps just because it was readily available. It was originally cold worked and later annealed (heated with wood fires in order to shape it without melting it). The smelting of copper did occur in South America, but that seems to have been a separate and later development. Smelting did spread to Mesoamerica and the Aztecs seem to have been on the verge of a bronze age when the Spanish first arrived.

I suspect that working cold copper would happen anywhere that copper nuggets, as opposed to copper alloy ores, occur naturally. Heat treating copper in wood fires seems like a natural next step. However, I suspect that copper smelting could only have started somewhere where coal was a readily available resource that was already being exploited. You can't smelt copper with wood fires, since they don't produce enough heat. Therefore I think that the first copper smelting in Eurasia would have occurred somewhere where both copper alloy ores and coal were readily available, not where pure copper was available. The ore had to be smelted to produce the copper and the coal provided the means, so shaping the smelted copper would follow naturally from that. Just a theory. I suppose that smelting for the sole purpose of shaping naturally occurring copper deposits could have happened anywhere that coal was being exploited as a heat source, but I think it's more likely that people who have previously been exposed to naturally occurring copper nuggets found both copper alloy ore and coal and used the coal to extract the copper from the ore.

Aberdeen
23-12-13, 15:48
Sorry for the second post, but I wanted to clarify something without further editing my previous post. I think copper smelting would have originated where there were surface supplies of copper or copper alloy ore and surface supplies of soft coal. If this theory is correct, perhaps that will narrow down the list of possible locations where copper smelting first occurred, assuming that the smelting of copper in Eurasia was only invented once.

bicicleur
23-12-13, 16:50
The settlement of the Americas seems to have happened in three phases, with the original wave happening about 15,000 years BP, a second wave that brought the Dene speakers to North America happening about 8,000 years ago and the Inuit arriving about 3,000 years ago. And the first examples of the exploitation of copper by Native Americans seem to date from 7,000 years ago.



can you tell me more about the wave arriving 8000 years ago ?

the first wave was 15000 years ago, indeed, that is when the the coastal route between the cordillera icesheet and the coast opened
proof of this is found in Monte Verde , Chile with dating 14500 years ago
these were the haplo Q people

the 2nd wave was 13000 years ago, with the clovis people :

http://archaeology.about.com/od/clovispreclovis/qt/clovis_people.htm

'Clovis archaeological sites are dated between 11,000-10,800RCYBP (http://archaeology.about.com/od/rterms/g/rcybp.htm) (which converts to circa 12,500-12,900 calendar years before the present)'
It thought these were R1b + C3.

But if there was a 3rd wave 8000 years ago, than R1b and C3 came seperately.

bicicleur
23-12-13, 17:01
I suspect that working cold copper would happen anywhere that copper nuggets, as opposed to copper alloy ores, occur naturally. Heat treating copper in wood fires seems like a natural next step. However, I suspect that copper smelting could only have started somewhere where coal was a readily available resource that was already being exploited. You can't smelt copper with wood fires, since they don't produce enough heat. Therefore I think that the first copper smelting in Eurasia would have occurred somewhere where both copper alloy ores and coal were readily available, not where pure copper was available. The ore had to be smelted to produce the copper and the coal provided the means, so shaping the smelted copper would follow naturally from that. Just a theory. I suppose that smelting for the sole purpose of shaping naturally occurring copper deposits could have happened anywhere that coal was being exploited as a heat source, but I think it's more likely that people who have previously been exposed to naturally occurring copper nuggets found both copper alloy ore and coal and used the coal to extract the copper from the ore.

the oldest known site where copper ore was smelted is in eastern Albania/Serbia , 7500 years ago
they used malachite and azurite ores
they made fine pottery there, which required ovens with high temperature
furthermore these ovens were able to work with an oxidizing or reducing atmosphere depending on the type of coating and colour they wanted to apply on the pottery
there where flint mines in that area
in the same mines there was also malachite and azurite
the powder of azurite and malachite was used for cosmetics
these people allready knew about cold working of native copper
somebody just started experimenting with malachite/azurite and pottery ovens
but this couldn't have happened just anywhere

sparkey
23-12-13, 18:07
can you tell me more about the wave arriving 8000 years ago ?

It would have been the speakers of ancestral Na-Dene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na-Dene_languages). Their descendants are the Dene and Tlingit people of Northwestern North America (but not quite as much on the fringe as the Eskimo-Aleut), as well as the Navajo and Apache.


'Clovis archaeological sites are dated between 11,000-10,800RCYBP (http://archaeology.about.com/od/rterms/g/rcybp.htm) (which converts to circa 12,500-12,900 calendar years before the present)'
It thought these were R1b + C3.

But if there was a 3rd wave 8000 years ago, than R1b and C3 came seperately.


Na-Dene people are very high in C-P39. I don't know for sure that they were the only ones to have brought it, but they definitely ended up with the highest frequency.

IMHO Amerind R1b was introduced by Europeans. I've yet to see evidence to contradict that.

bicicleur
23-12-13, 18:22
It would have been the speakers of ancestral Na-Dene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na-Dene_languages). Their descendants are the Dene and Tlingit people of Northwestern North America (but not quite as much on the fringe as the Eskimo-Aleut), as well as the Navajo and Apache.



Na-Dene people are very high in C-P39. I don't know for sure that they were the only ones to have brought it, but they definitely ended up with the highest frequency.

IMHO Amerind R1b was introduced by Europeans. I've yet to see evidence to contradict that.

I meant R1 , not R1b
and I know its controversial, there is no agreement upon this

that is why I would like to know whether there was a 3rd wave, later than 13000 year ago

Aberdeen
23-12-13, 19:14
the oldest known site where copper ore was smelted is in eastern Albania/Serbia , 7500 years ago
they used malachite and azurite ores
they made fine pottery there, which required ovens with high temperature
furthermore these ovens were able to work with an oxidizing or reducing atmosphere depending on the type of coating and colour they wanted to apply on the pottery
there where flint mines in that area
in the same mines there was also malachite and azurite
the powder of azurite and malachite was used for cosmetics
these people allready knew about cold working of native copper
somebody just started experimenting with malachite/azurite and pottery ovens
but this couldn't have happened just anywhere

Okay, I was thinking that the first smelting of copper would have involved an attempt to mould pure copper ore into useful shapes, but perhaps people who were using coal fired furnaces for making pottery would have experimented with malachite and/or azurite in order to colour their pottery and found that they could separate out the copper at high enough temperatures. So the first smelting of copper could actually have been an accident, even if the use of cold shaped pure copper was already known at that time.

Aberdeen
23-12-13, 19:34
It would have been the speakers of ancestral Na-Dene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na-Dene_languages). Their descendants are the Dene and Tlingit people of Northwestern North America (but not quite as much on the fringe as the Eskimo-Aleut), as well as the Navajo and Apache.

Na-Dene people are very high in C-P39. I don't know for sure that they were the only ones to have brought it, but they definitely ended up with the highest frequency.

IMHO Amerind R1b was introduced by Europeans. I've yet to see evidence to contradict that.

The figures I've seen show very little C among the Dene, with Q being the most common in Dene tribes except for the Chipewayan, where 62.5% are R1 according to Bortolini. Of course, R1 is also common among some tribes that are not Dene. And the only reason I mentioned something controversial like that which might otherwise be considered off topic is because there was already some discussion in the thread about R1b being associated with the development of copper smelting. And Tabaccus Maximus mentioned that the use of cold worked copper in the Americas could have come from Siberia. But I think bicicleur makes a good argument for why copper smelting could have developed in the area of modern Serbia and Albania. Maybe someone was just trying to colour pottery.

sparkey
23-12-13, 19:57
The figures I've seen show very little C among the Dene, with Q being the most common in Dene tribes except for the Chipewayan, where 62.5% are R1 according to Bortolini. Of course, R1 is also common among some tribes that are not Dene.

Yeah, they are higher in Q than in C for sure, but definitely have higher C frequency than other Amerind groups from what I've seen (looking at Zegura 2004 now, with Bortolini also showing that a little).

kamani
23-12-13, 20:42
the oldest known site where copper ore was smelted is in eastern Albania/Serbia , 7500 years ago
they used malachite and azurite ores
they made fine pottery there, which required ovens with high temperature
furthermore these ovens were able to work with an oxidizing or reducing atmosphere depending on the type of coating and colour they wanted to apply on the pottery
there where flint mines in that area
in the same mines there was also malachite and azurite
the powder of azurite and malachite was used for cosmetics
these people allready knew about cold working of native copper
somebody just started experimenting with malachite/azurite and pottery ovens
but this couldn't have happened just anywhere
I've been around there and in some areas the soil is just red from the minerals exposed to the surface. I bet they were trying to bake pottery and ended up with metals.

Aberdeen
23-12-13, 21:33
I've been around there and in some areas the soil is just red from the minerals exposed to the surface. I bet they were trying to bake pottery and ended up with metals.

I had been assuming that people started smelting copper in order to be able to work with it better than they could with cold copper. But I think it would be quite amusing is the creation of the Copper Age was an accident. Of course, if people did produce copper as a by-product of pottery making, they would very quickly realize they were on to something really useful. But perhaps if the people of that culture hadn't had such good pottery ovens, the Copper Age (and therefore probably the Bronze Age and the Iron Age) might have been delayed for who knows how long.

LeBrok
24-12-13, 02:51
I think it makes a lot of sense to associate baking pottery with copper age revolution. It is true that copper in natural form could be found and cold molded for tools, and was in sporadic use very early, but ubiquitous copper use, the true copper revolution, only came with ability to smelt it and cast it.
I checked couple of things to make sure that connection with baking pottery and copper smelting make sense. Clay pottery to harden needs to be baked in fire/heat. But how hot kiln needs to be to achieve the ceramic state of clay? Required temperature turned to be no less than 1,000 C, and in some cases as high as 1,400C for best quality. Now, temperature needed for melting copper is 1,084C. Well, it is a pretty much a bingo moment, lol. Pottery kilns were hot enough to melt copper.
Interestingly, to cast copper we need clay/ceramic molds. Should we mentioned that clay molds were readily available around pottery kilns? A very convenient circumstance.
Another interesting fact is that copper, copper oxide and dioxide, was used as pottery colorant. At this high temperatures copper evaporates in kiln and is absorbed by pottery, giving it greenish and reddish colour. This colouring technique could have been primary introduction of copper in kilns. From this it is only a short step to accidental invention of smelting copper.

bicicleur
24-12-13, 11:16
Okay, I was thinking that the first smelting of copper would have involved an attempt to mould pure copper ore into useful shapes, but perhaps people who were using coal fired furnaces for making pottery would have experimented with malachite and/or azurite in order to colour their pottery and found that they could separate out the copper at high enough temperatures. So the first smelting of copper could actually have been an accident, even if the use of cold shaped pure copper was already known at that time.

The malachite/azurite was not used to colour pottery, it was cosmetic, to colour the skin.
Malachite was also used to make jewelry, as is still done today.
They didn't use coal, they made charcoal, causing deforestation.
After this discovery, malachite/azurite mines appeared all over the Balkans.
They didn't know of any other copper ores.
Population in the Balkans grew very rapidly.
They may have invented the plough.
I suspect E-V13 arrived in the Balkans at that time, as the obsidian trade from Sicily and some small nearby islands had allready reached the Libyan coast by then.
They used some symbols, nobody knows whether this was writing or not : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C4%83rt%C4%83ria_tablets
It was the most advanced civilization of that period.

bicicleur
24-12-13, 11:24
I think it makes a lot of sense to associate baking pottery with copper age revolution. It is true that copper in natural form could be found and cold molded for tools, and was in sporadic use very early, but ubiquitous copper use, the true copper revolution, only came with ability to smelt it and cast it.
I checked couple of things to make sure that connection with baking pottery and copper smelting make sense. Clay pottery to harden needs to be baked in fire/heat. But how hot kiln needs to be to achieve the ceramic state of clay? Required temperature turned to be no less than 1,000 C, and in some cases as high as 1,400C for best quality. Now, temperature needed for melting copper is 1,084C. Well, it is a pretty much a bingo moment, lol. Pottery kilns were hot enough to melt copper.
Interestingly, to cast copper we need clay/ceramic molds. Should we mentioned that clay molds were readily available around pottery kilns? A very convenient circumstance.
Another interesting fact is that copper, copper oxide and dioxide, was used as pottery colorant. At this high temperatures copper evaporates in kiln and is absorbed by pottery, giving it greenish and reddish colour. This colouring technique could have been primary introduction of copper in kilns. From this it is only a short step to accidental invention of smelting copper.

Indeed, you do not need an oven to make simple pottery, that can be done in an open fire.
But for fine pottery, with proper glazing, you need higher temperatures and also some control over the amount of oxygen inside the oven.
I didn't know about the use of copper as pottery colorant. That's interesting.

Aberdeen
21-01-14, 18:40
There's a really interesting article at antiquity.ac.uk/Ant/087/1030/ant0871030.pdf re the discovery of 6500 year old tin bronze from the Balkans. It seems that bronze was created there at an earlier date than was previously believed, but the techniques may have been temporarily lost with the subsequent collapse of the cultures that created it.

ebAmerican
21-01-14, 20:02
I have read that most early bronzes were arsenic bronze, and the bronze age was also an accidental find. I guess arsenic is a common containment found in most ores. I would guess that a form of bronze would be found beside the oldest cooper. I don't think that bronze was purposely made until much later.

Aberdeen
21-01-14, 20:16
I have read that most early bronzes were arsenic bronze, and the bronze age was also an accidental find. I guess arsenic is a common containment found in most ores. I would guess that a form of bronze would be found beside the oldest cooper. I don't think that bronze was purposely made until much later.

That's been the opinion so far, but read the article - it says otherwise. They found tin bronze in the Balkans that was deliberately smelted about 6500 years ago. That predates bronze production in Anatolia.

ebAmerican
21-01-14, 21:37
They were using stannite a copper-tin-iron ore. They were picking minerals based on color, not on any true known bronze making knowledge. The earliest tin-bronze samples had plenty of other contaminants. We don't see true bronze working until the early 3rd Millennium BC in Mesopotamia. We see the first pure copper artifacts with deliberately controlled tin amounts in the middle-east. The Vinca were using what natural minerals were available to produce copper artifacts and getting a whole range of different copper/bronze derivatives.

Aberdeen
21-01-14, 22:14
I suspect that making bronze by accident as a result of smelting copper ore that already as tin in it is what lead to bronze production through the deliberate addition of tin. Just as copper smelting was probably discovered by accident by people wanting to use copper ores to colour pottery, the making of bronze could have happened by accident as a result of "impurities" in copper ore. But once you have a product like bronze, you want to make lots of it, so if your copper/tin alloy ore is limited, you figure out how to reproduce the results by mixing different ores together in the smelting process.

motzart
30-04-14, 00:24
I have a very hard time believing that copper age metallurgy was spread into Europe by haplogroup J considering that there are zero examples of Neolithic or Copper age J found in Europe to date. It seems there are two possibilities, it originated in the Balkans and spread east along the coast of the Black Sea, or it originated in the Caucasuses and spread west along the southern coast of the black sea. Being adopted originally by more stationary cultures (Cucuteni-Tripyllian, Maykop) and ignored by the more nomadic ones (Yamna). The dates of the finds seem to imply a Balkan origin. I think the distribution of the finds also implies a Balkan origin, if it was a Caucasus origin we would likely see more of an eastward distribution rather than the sharp cut east of those areas.

If I were to put a haplogroup label on the spread I would say it was spread by pre-indo european R1b, spreading metallurgy westward from the Balkans as they moved towards Iberia. I would even go further as to say those that made it to Iberia adopted the proto-basque language and bell beaker culture of the indigenous Iberians and then spread it eastward. Bold statements I know :D

also, there is a really great map of the spread of metallurgy on wikipedia that I can't post here ... because I don't have 10 posts yet :/

upload (dot) wikimedia (dot) org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Metallurgical_diffusion.png

LeBrok
30-04-14, 03:24
J2 still have a strong signature in Balkans and in Varna area where metallurgy probably originated. My top pick is J2 as main HG, although surely there were other farmer's haplogroups involved too. R1s the Indo Europeans are out of question during copper age in Europe, not until late copper perhaps.
I'm so looking forward sequencing Varna and Cucuteni DNA.

FrankN
17-05-14, 03:15
After looking at this publication
http://www.bergbaumuseum.de/index.php/de/forschung/publikationen-zum-download/item/stoellner-et-al-2010-georgien ,
I think the map's colouring of Georgia needs some review. There is a map of bronze-age mines in the Caucasus on p.3, the C-14 dates for several mines can be found on page 4. Copper mining in Abkhazia started before 3.500 BC, and in Svaneti and Racha (upper Rioni valley) before 2.000 BC. More than 20 prehistoric mines in north-western Georgia have been documented so far. Noteworthy is also mining of arsenic and antimony in Racha since the 3rd millennium. Both metals can replace tin in copper alloys (bronze).

For East Georgia and Azerbaijan see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kura-Araxes_culture (check the enclosed map)

In its earliest phase, metal was scant, but it would later display "a precocious metallurgical development which strongly influenced surrounding regions". They worked copper, arsenic, silver, gold, tin, and bronze.

Their metal goods were widely distributed, recorded in the Volga, Dnieper and Don-Donets systems in the north, into Syria and Palestine in the south, and west into Anatolia.


As such, there should not be any "grey area"" separating the Eurasian steppe from the Caucasus and/ or northern Anatolia. However, according to
http://kura-arax.tau.ac.il/system/files/Kohl.pdf

The new high dating of the Maikop culture essentially signifies that there is no chronological hiatus separating the collapse of the Chalcolithic Balkan centre of metallurgical production and the appearance of Maikop and the sudden explosion of Caucasian metallurgical production and use of arsenical copper/bronzes. More than forty calibrated radiocarbon dates on Maikop and related materials now support this high chronology; and the revised dating for the Maikop culture means that the earliest kurgans occur in the northwestern and southern Caucasus and precede by several centuries those of the Pit-Grave (Yamnaya) cultures of the western Eurasian steppes.

As such, the Caucasus should probably be several grades darker than the steppes.

Last month, a new paper "The Beginning of Metallurgy in the Southern Levant: A Late 6th Millennium CalBC Copper Awl from Tel Tsaf, Israel" has been published:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0092591

A recently discovered copper awl from a Middle Chalcolithic burial at Tel Tsaf, Jordan Valley, Israel, suggests that cast metal technology was introduced to the region as early as the late 6th millennium CalBC. This paper examines the chemical composition of this item and reviews its context. The results indicate that it was exported from a distant source, probably in the Caucasus. (...)

The earliest extractive metallurgy in the southern Levant is typically connected with the Late Chalcolithic period (ca. 4500–3800 CalBC) and reliable 14C dates show that the prestige items were manufactured as early as 4350–4250 CalBC [28]–[29]. In the southern Levant, an extremely elaborate tradition developed using lost-wax casting of combining copper ores with high antimony or nickel content with arsenic rich ores to cast prestige objects, as known at various sites in southern Israel [30]–[33]. (...) The elaboration of south Levantine Late Chalcolithic metallurgy means that with our current archaeological record, the peak of the technical evolution of copper metallurgy is set at its beginning. In our opinion, this suggests that large parts of the technological evolution of metallurgy have not yet been discovered. Indeed, the Tel Tsaf awl dated to ca. 5100–4600, centuries earlier, would thus fill an important gap in the picture. However, the high percentage of tin in the awl could be used to argue that the item was an intrusive object from a much later period—although during the excavation no disturbances were documented and the context was sealed by mudbricks and stone slabs and cobbles.

Recently, new data on very early copper artifacts in the northeastern Near East and the Balkans indicate that tin was found in some of the early metal items known in this area [35]–[37]. Another example comes from the Late Neolithic mound of Aruchlo I in Georgia, 5800–5300 CalBC [38]. This is a heavily corroded, small, ring-shaped bead, and therefore it is unclear whether it was cast or hammered. XRF-analysis identifies copper, iron, arsenic and a larger amount of tin. It was suggested that the object was made from a polymetallic raw-material, i.e. a natural copper-tin alloy [38]–[39]. A final analysis of the bead recently confirmed a copper-based (84.991%) alloy with high amounts of tin (8.350%) as well as arsenic (3.016%) and iron (3.643%) [40].

Even though it could be argued that the items from Aruchlo I and Tel Tsaf are later intrusions which were brought into earlier archaeological layers by post-depositional processes, this seems to be less plausible because there are no known later settlement traces at either site. Since artificial alloying would also be very improbable at such an early time, a natural copper-tin alloy is, at the moment, an interpretation worth considering. Copper sources with a natural tin-copper alloy are known inter alia in Mušiston, Tajikistan [41]–[42]. The easy availability of tin and the knowledge of natural tin-copper alloys could be one reason why the alloying of tin-bronze took place in the Caucasus significantly earlier than in neighboring regions, namely in the 4th millennium CalBC [43].

If one accepts the Aruchlo I bead as non-intrusive, it demonstrates the possibility of the extraction and use of natural tin-copper alloys as early as the 6th millennium CalBC. This, in turn, also opens the possibility that the item from Tel Tsaf was made from a natural tin-copper source and transported to the Jordan Valley via long-distance exchange networks, which also brought obsidian, groundstone items and other goods from Armenia, Anatolia and Syria through the Levantine Corridor.


Note that Aruchlo is in East Georgia, approximately 50 km south from Tbilissi, and thus within the region of the Kura-Araxes Culture and its obsidian-based predecessors. The Kura-Araxes culture did not include West Georgia (Colchis). This, however, does not mean the Western Caucasus had no metallurgical tradition. This paper by the British Museum http://www.britishmuseum.org/pdf/6a%20Append%20text-opt-sec.pdf states:

By the MBA of the northern Caucasus, the rich kurgan burials of the Maikop culture have declined and have been largely replaced by burials in pits or small cists. Chernykh (1992) sees two distinct foci, the Terek River in the east and the Kuban River in the west. (..)

The Late Bronze Age: mid-2nd to1st millennium BC

The LBA and Early Iron Age saw an increase in the metallurgical activity in these areas which to some extent was in decline towards the end of the MBA. Chernykh (1992) suggests this is associated with the growing exploitation of copper and polymetallic deposits associated with primary (sulfidic) copper minerals. He sees the deposits of the Little (or southern) Caucasus as the main focus for this new surge in mining activity. Pyritic copper mines have been identified in the main Caucasus range, and over a hundred are known from the Gornaya Racha region of Transcaucasia which also produced antimony and arsenical ores (Chernykh 1992: 276). Many of the objects in the British Museum’s collection are typical of LBA metal production. Perhaps underrepresented in the collection are the highly decorated incised axes with stylized zoomorphic designs. The typology of these and other tools are the basis for the division of the Caucasian metallurgical province into two regions: the
western Koban-Colchidic zone and the eastern Caucasian-Caspian zone.


As such, while ore mining and metallurgy may have commenced earlier in the Kura-Araxes zone, benefitting from established obsidian trade routes to the Levante, it should also have been present in the Western Caucasus by the beginning of the 4th millennium BC. Considering that, according to the Israeli paper cited above, copper-antimony alloys have been casted in the Levante since 4.500 BC, and the only known and exploitable Near East sources of Antimony are Armenia and Racha on the south-western slope of the Great Caucasus (source in link below), metallurgy, or at least antimony mining for export, in West Georgia has most likely already started in the 5th millennium BC.
http://books.google.de/books?id=C-TQpUtI-dgC&pg=PA60&lpg=PA60&dq=Chalcolithic+Georgia&source=bl&ots=S4vpkcp-ez&sig=7Y-DepLtvyg-x01daLdvQ0HMCzI&hl=de&sa=X&ei=7HV2U7HUMvH14QSc5oD4Ag&ved=0CFwQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=Chalcolithic%20Georgia&f=false
This on-going research project may tell us more: http://www.ritak-leibniz.de/tiki-index.php?page=anatolia

Further reading:
http://archaeology.about.com/od/dterms/qt/dzudzuana_cave.htm
http://www.academia.edu/4647062/Ancient_metallurgy_in_the_Caucasus_during_the_Chal colithic_and_Early_Bronze_Age_recent_results_from_ excavations_in_Western_Azerbaijan
http://www.ajaonline.org/sites/default/files/AJA1134Amzallag_0.pdf
http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4614-9017-3_22
http://www.archatlas.org/ObsidianRoutes/ObsidianRoutes.php

motzart
17-05-14, 04:45
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Metallurgical_diffusion.png

I can now post the map!

FrankN
17-05-14, 05:58
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Metallurgical_diffusion.png

I can now post the map!

...which I already was aware of, and that is actually quite nice, except that it lacks a few mining sites that are important to understand cultural diffusion, especially:

prehistoric cppper mines on Menorca - add in the old obsidian trade network around Sardinia and Lipari, and you start to understand how metallurgy made its way to southern Spain, plus the distribution of Y-DNA haplogroup I2a1a1
(a) The tin and copper deposits in the Ergebirge ("ore mountains") and the Fichtelgebirge along the German-Czech border, plus
(b) copper (+silver) in the Harz, and the Mansfeld copper deposits just east of the Harz.
Both combined give you a clue on the "northward bay" metallurgy shows around the upper and middle Elbe (in that respect, maciamo's map is actually better than the Wikipedia one), the regional spread of the Unetice culture, the oppida network of central European Celts, the yDNA I2a2 distribution, etc.


Now that I can include links and pictures, I will post some more related to the above ..

FrankN
20-05-14, 00:03
A recent paper (2012, in German) discusses a copper dagger that has been found in a late Neolithic grave from Aspenstedt near Halberstadt (15 km north of the Harz mountains), and uses the opportunity to, based on other finds in the region, reconstruct the early history of metallurgy in the area:
http://www.uni-kiel.de/ufg/bereiche/dateienJMueller/mueller_2012_pz.pdf (http://www.uni-kiel.de/ufg/bereiche/dateienJMueller/mueller_2012_pz.pdf)

According to the paper, the process included the following stages:

4.100-3.800 BC : Occasional import of copper tools from western Slovakia (9 finds in total). The origin might be the place described in this paper: http://www.vfg.uni-wuerzburg.de/forschung/projekte/fidvar_near_vrable/
3.800-3.500 BC: Increased occurrence of copper artefacts (now also decorative items in addition to tools), and indication of local processing of imported copper. The supply source shifts towards East Alpine Mondsee copper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondsee_group). The Aspenstedt dagger, a Mondsee dagger that exhibits signs of local re-shaping, belongs into this group.
3.500- 3.350 BC: First indication of the use of local copper alongside imported one.
3.350 - 3.100 BC: Strong increase in copper finds (8% of all locations, compared to 4% before), mostly decorative items, increasingly produced from local copper.
3.100 - 2.800 BC: Further increase of copper finds (11% of all locations). The increased occurrence of copper axes, produced from local copper, indicates a well developed local tool making industry.


As a dagger similar to the Aspenstedt one has been found in Bygholm, Jutland, the paper also examines parallels to the metallurgical development in the Western Baltics / Southern Scandinavia. It concludes a similar, though slightly delayed development for the Western Baltics / southern Scandinavia until 3.350 BC. However, it is not clear whether southern Scandinavia already used local copper between 3.500 and 3.350. After 3.350, the south Scandinavian metallurgical tradition apparently breaks, to only reappear more than a millennium later in the Nordic Bronze age. Reasons for this break are not discussed in the paper.

In any case, the paper suggests that in both maciamo's map and the Wikipedia map posted by motzart, the Elbe-Saale-Harz region (possibly also the Western Baltics) needs to be coloured in a darker brown. The fact that by 3.800 BC Mondsee copper was already traded towards the Harz area suggests that metallurgy in Eastern / central Austria probably already started in the 5th millennium BC.

Echetlaeus
20-05-14, 00:40
Reminder (and a little bit off-topic): copper/cuprum has Greek origin. It comes from the word Κύπρος/Cyprus. The maps above show that Cyprus was full of that metal.

Aberdeen
20-05-14, 01:40
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Metallurgical_diffusion.png

I can now post the map!

The map has at least one major inaccuracy. Tin was mined in Cornwall in Britain over 4000 years ago. The map shows copper mines in Britain but not its famous tin mines.

Echetlaeus
20-05-14, 01:56
The map has at least one major inaccuracy. Tin was mined in Cornwall in Britain over 4000 years ago. The map shows copper mines in Britain but not its famous tin mines.

I saw that map in Wikipedia.

Angela
20-05-14, 13:22
The map has at least one major inaccuracy. Tin was mined in Cornwall in Britain over 4000 years ago. The map shows copper mines in Britain but not its famous tin mines.

You're right. I don't think it's totally accurate. It's also missing mines in Italy, including the famous copper mine in Liguria.

Aberdeen
20-05-14, 16:58
You're right. I don't think it's totally accurate. It's also missing mines in Italy, including the famous copper mine in Liguria.

There also seems to be a problem with the direction some of those arrows are going. The map shows an going from Denmark along the north coast of Europe and across to Britain. However, the British Copper Age started about 4500 years ago and lasted for about 350-400 years until the Bronze Age started in Britain, whereas Demark seems to have gone directly from the Stone Age to the Bronze Age starting about 3700 years ago, long after Britain became an important source of tin and a place were bronze tools were used. And interestingly enough, a recent analysis of the copper used to make the earliest bronze tools in Demark seems to have come from Iberia, which would seem to suggest that there weren't trade routes connecting Britain and Demark back then. The paper, by Ling et al, is entitled "Moving metals; provenancing Scandinavian Bronze Age artefacts by lead isotope and elemental analysis". It was published in the January 2014 edition of the Journal of Archeological Science (pages 105-132). And I'm wondering whether that arrow going from central Europe to Italy is accurate, given the 4800 year old Bell Beaker site in northwestern Italy, along the coast.

FrankN
20-05-14, 17:23
Well, the arrows indicate the amber routes, that is the countertrade in exchange for copper/ tin / bronze. Actually, the "Moving metals" paper includes better and more detailed maps on the trade flows, though it deals with central Sweden and not with Denmark, and their earliest bronze tools were made from Tyrolean, not Iberian copper....
I intend to post details about it in my new "Bronze age trade networks" thread, once I have managed to extract the maps from that paper.

Aberdeen
20-05-14, 18:49
Well, the arrows indicate the amber routes, that is the countertrade in exchange for copper/ tin / bronze. Actually, the "Moving metals" paper includes better and more detailed maps on the trade flows, though it deals with central Sweden and not with Denmark, and their earliest bronze tools were made from Tyrolean, not Iberian copper....
I intend to post details about it in my new "Bronze age trade networks" thread, once I have managed to extract the maps from that paper.

I don't read German, so can't comment on the paper that you're referring to. However, I think it's highly unlikely that any trade route connecting central Sweden to western Europe would exclude Denmark, and the arrows do seem to show a trade route from Denmark into Germany. But I'd be interested in reading what the authors of that paper have to say, including what evidence they have that contradicts the metal analysis of the paper I referred to. The problem with your map is that it lacks dates for when trade routes commenced, so it's difficult to assess how meaningful those arrows are. Everything I've read about the archeology of Europe suggests that there were trade routes along the Atlantic between Iberia and Britain long before metal came into use in Scandinavia, which happened rather late. I'll admit I'm surprised that metal analysis would show that Danish people were initially using copper from Iberia and not local copper or copper from Britain or the Hartz Mountains. If the Danes were originally using Iberian copper, that would suggest a controlling Iberian elite dominated metal trade along the Atlantic and North Sea at the beginning of the Bronze Age in Scandinavia. But if you have other evidence, I'd be interested in reading it in English, if possible, with relevant dates provided. I have difficulty in interpreting your colour coded timeline.

Angela
20-05-14, 22:18
Sorry, I didn't provide the citations for the mines in Italy...

Mid fourth-millennium copper mining in Liguria, North-west Italy: the earliest known copper mines in western Europe.
Roberto Maggi and Mark Pierce
http://beniculturali.altaviadeimontiliguri.it/beniAVML/resources/cms/documents/MaggiPearceAntiquityML.pdf

Early Metallurgy in the Central Mediterranean, Andrea Delfino, 2014
http://www.academia.edu/5926123/Dolfini_A._2014._Early_metallurgy_in_the_central_M editerranean_in_B.W_Roberts_and_C.P._Thornton_eds. _Archaeometallurgy_in_Global_Perspective_473-506._New_York_Springer

Some Aspects of Prehistoric and Protohistoric Metallalurgy in Liguria, Davide Delfino
http://mgu.bg/geoarchmin/naterials/46Delfino.pdf

Angela
21-05-14, 19:41
Sorry, I never provided the citations for the early copper age mines in Italy...

Roberto Maggi and Mark Pearce, Mid-fourth millennium copper mining in Liguria, north-west Italy: the earliest known copper mines in western Europe.
http://beniculturali.altaviadeimontiliguri.it/beniAVML/resources/cms/documents/MaggiPearceAntiquityML.pdf

Dolfini, Early Metallurgy in the Central Mediterranean, http://www.academia.edu/5926123/Dolfini_A._2014._Early_metallurgy_in_the_central_M editerranean_in_B.W_Roberts_and_C.P._Thornton_eds. _Archaeometallurgy_in_Global_Perspective_473-506._New_York_Springer

Aberdeen
21-05-14, 20:28
Sorry, I never provided the citations for the early copper age mines in Italy...

Roberto Maggi and Mark Pearce, Mid-fourth millennium copper mining in Liguria, north-west Italy: the earliest known copper mines in western Europe.
http://beniculturali.altaviadeimontiliguri.it/beniAVML/resources/cms/documents/MaggiPearceAntiquityML.pdf

Dolfini, Early Metallurgy in the Central Mediterranean, http://www.academia.edu/5926123/Dolfini_A._2014._Early_metallurgy_in_the_central_M editerranean_in_B.W_Roberts_and_C.P._Thornton_eds. _Archaeometallurgy_in_Global_Perspective_473-506._New_York_Springer

Thanks, Angela. I found the second article to be particularly informative and interesting. However, despite the comments in that paper about shepherd warriors from the Balkans subjugating the Italian population, I think the use of copper weaponry, while it obviously occurred, is not quite such an advance over stone weapons as bronze was to be, and that smelted copper tools probably had more of an impact in giving Copper Age people an advantage over Stone Age people. And the Copper Age people lacked other technology that would make conquest easy (such as the horse and chariot) so I personally suspect that any "conquest" was in the form of traders and copper makers being allowed to settle peacefully among Stone Age people, then outcompeting them or integrating with them, whereas later Bronze Age warriors with chariots would have had much more of a military advantage. But I suppose further archeology and DNA testing will eventually tell us if my suppositions are valid.

It's too bad the paper didn't address the issue of glazed pottery in the context of copper smelting, since I'm convinced that copper smelting is easily discovered by anyone who tries to use copper ores to colour glazed pottery, and glazed pottery also provides the equipment necessary for copper smelting. That raises the possibility or probability that copper smelting could have been invented separately in several places, whereas something like the deliberate production of bronze tools with a specific percentage of another metal present requires much more specialized knowledge, so may have been more dependent on diffusion for its spread.

Angela
22-05-14, 00:32
I posted the papers mostly for the dating aspect. Dolfini is reacting to scholarship which has held that metal working developed gradually in Italy during the mid-third millennium, and he is saying that a local tradition of copper and aresenical copper working emerged in central Italy in the early Copper Age (3600-3300 calendar B.C.), presumably following a short but momentous intensification period during the Final Neolithic, which might go all the way back to 4351 B.C.

The comment about "shepherd warriors" from the Balkans introducing copper metallurgy is made in the context of explaining the earliest theories about metallurgy in Italy, and contrasting them with the views of Renfrew among others, that posited a blend of independent invention and cultural influence from the Balkans to explain it. Although, at the end of the paper he dismisses the possibility of independent invention on Sicily, or a transmission from either Iberia or the Aegean, and instead seems to tentatively see a source in the Balkans.

However, he doesn't say anything about whether this influence would have involved a substantial movement of peoples from the area of the Balkans.

As you know, I'm no longer so convinced that the spread of copper technology into Italy was accompanied by a necessarily large movement of people. Oetzi is the quintessential Neolithic farmer genetically even if he did have a copper ax and had arsenic in his blood. Of course, maybe the people in the Balkans whom I believe might have been the source of any such movement weren't so different yet either. Perhaps what change occurred came later in the mid third millennium with the Bronze Age proper.

FrankN
22-05-14, 10:02
Good discussions of early copper mines (including the Ligurian ones) are found here
http://books.google.de/books?id=hefUAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA440&lpg=PA440&dq=copper+Harz+bronze+age&source=bl&ots=gbKlcvHxmn&sig=m-AFlXz0UzFCmVjonSX0QSgWDuA&hl=de&sa=X&ei=0eh2U4jjKcLJOfGhgfgB&ved=0CGoQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=copper%20Harz%20bronze%20age&f=false (map on p 439!) and
http://books.google.de/books?id=EbIVASSe9jcC&pg=PA210&lpg=PA210&dq=copper+Harz+bronze+age&source=bl&ots=wxwdge86N-&sig=u2sbdaWUdWNX5XSbpbB-GX_pe-I&hl=de&sa=X&ei=0eh2U4jjKcLJOfGhgfgB&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=copper%20Harz%20bronze%20age&f=false

Note that central Alpine mines, especially the Mitterberg south of Salzburg and Brixlegg in North Tyrol, emerged as main Central European supply sources by the beginning of the Bronze age, though the other mines mentioned played as well important roles at least on a regional, possibly also on a continental scale (there remains a lot of archeometry to be done, especially in the Mediterranean).
https://www2.uni-frankfurt.de/47388589/Hensler_Pfedelbach_Oe-Ringe-1.jpg
Typical Ösenring early bronze age copper ingots from Tyrolia & Salzburg, which possibly may also have served as currency. A distribution map (too large to be attached directly) is here: https://www2.uni-frankfurt.de/47388825/Hensler_Verbreitungskarte.jpg


It's too bad the paper didn't address the issue of glazed pottery in the context of copper smelting, since I'm convinced that copper smelting is easily discovered by anyone who tries to use copper ores to colour glazed pottery, and glazed pottery also provides the equipment necessary for copper smelting. That raises the possibility or probability that copper smelting could have been invented separately in several places, whereas something like the deliberate production of bronze tools with a specific percentage of another metal present requires much more specialized knowledge, so may have been more dependent on diffusion for its spread.
I have seen several papers that support this thesis (due to a browser crash for too many pages opened simultaneously, I have unfortunately lost the links). In addition to the discovery of copper smelting, trade networks allowing for the dissemination of the technology are as well of interest. That would primarily be obsidian and flintstone trade, both of which imply a source population specialised in, and experienced with mining.

Obsidian trade in the Western Mediterranean is, among others, discussed here: http://books.google.de/books?id=0HeNr9h56uEC&pg=PA192&lpg=PA192&dq=Obsidian+trade+mediterranean&source=bl&ots=7e6PVW8eOJ&sig=b6_1f9sH73x7g6_bwO2J_369BiU&hl=de&sa=X&ei=c5d9U4-NM-LnywPk9IFA&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Obsidian%20trade%20mediterranean&f=false and here
http://shell.cas.usf.edu/~rtykot/PR22%20-%20AccChemRes%202002.pdf (note the maps on the second page and in the discussion!). I personally think that this trade, as well as subsequent copper trade from Ligurian and Sardinian mines, can explain a lot about the distribution of the Sardinian I2a sub-clade.

Wikipedia has a good overview on known prehistoric flint mines in Europe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_mine
Many of those mines supplied flint across several hundred km distances. The flint mining complex around Arnhofen (near Regensburg in East Central Bavaria), e.g., has been shown to have supplied the Lake Constance area, as well as Bohemia up to Prague: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feuersteinstra%C3%9Fe (in German only).
This article http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/archives/02/2014/otzis-flint-one-sided-relationship shows, for the chalcolithic, the overlap of supply regions between the Arnhofen mines and Monte Lessini in Northern Italy.
http://arbannig.blogspot.de/p/regional-limburg-nl-neolithic.html puts the Limburg flint mines (southern Netherlands, supplying a/o the Rhineland between Cologne and Duisburg) into the context of LBK expansion from the upper Danube to the Rhineland and the Paris basin.

Of particular interest are flint mines located close to copper mines that are known or supposed to have been exploited in the bronze age:

Black forest: http://antiquity.ac.uk/projgall/Siegmund/
Mansfeld (eastern Harz): http://www.archaeologie-online.de/magazin/nachrichten/6000-jahre-altes-feuersteinbergwerk-im-mansfelder-land-entdeckt-28356/ (in German)
Wales: http://books.google.de/books?id=BNP047OAstkC&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=flint+mining+Wales&source=bl&ots=B9LF_VrUGk&sig=ydHuNwLxfBHX1_8HO0ucIc6HGDE&hl=de&sa=X&ei=66Z9U_6TA6j24QTX1oDgBg&ved=0CFIQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=flint%20mining%20Wales&f=false
Basque country: http://www.researchgate.net/publication/259011705_Evidence_of_flint_mining_in_the_Trevio_S yncline_(Basque-Cantabrian_Basin_Western_Pyrenees_Spain)
SW Spain: https://www.zotero.org/groups/archaeology_dguf/items/itemKey/47SI3KA7


Btw: Unlike commonly claimed, the flint mines of Spiennes, Belgium, are neither Europes oldest nor largest prehistoric flint mines. The Arnhofen mines in Bavaria, e.g. predate Spiennes by several centuries (which is consistent with the archaeological record of LBK expansion from the Danube to the Rhine and Belgium /northern France). The mines in Krzemionki (SE Poland) appear to have been at least as large, if not larger than the ones in Spiennes.

AlexImreh
28-12-14, 02:29
wiki on the 'Nuragic Civilization' article, at the 'Pre-Nuragic Sardinia' sections says - During this period copper objects and weapons also appeared in the island, ie BEFORE the coming of Beaker people around 2000bc. You also say that the oldest evidence of copper metallurgy is from Vinca/Serbia around 5500bc. Sardinia could be a hub for the neolithic expansion by sea just like Cyprus and Crete. I see on several maps that this neolithic expansion can be seen in 3 steps - 1] Old Europe/Vinca, 2] Croatia plus S of Italy (and o bit of central Italy, E shores) and Sardinia, than 3]S of Spain which appears on your map as early Iberian bronze. So could we think about a logical bronze expansion from Vinca to Spain through Sardinia? Sardinia was rich in copper mines, it later developed the Nuragic Bronze Culture, which was exporting copper products all over Mediterana, probably in relation with the Phoenicians also.

xiaodragon
23-03-19, 01:01
Vinca:The oldest evidence of copper metallurgy is from the Vinča culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin%C4%8Da_culture) in Serbia around 5500 BCE. From there is quickly spread to Bulgaria (Gumelniţa-Karanovo culture, etc.), then to the Carpathians (Cucuteni-Tripyllian culture) and the Danubian basin. These cultures of 'Old Europe' would have included haplogroups E1b1b, G2a, J and T (as well as I2a1 for Cucuteni-Tripyllian).
 where did they come? Is there any information about their roots?

Piro Ilir
30-03-19, 16:37
Is there any vague chance that copper metallurgy was spread independently in some few different sites?

Piro Ilir
30-03-19, 16:52
Another point to add here. Seems that Maciamo is another time not correct. As far as I know there's not yet been found any J2b2 nor J2b1 in southeast Europe during the copper age. How can be J2 related with the copper spread as long as the dominant Y-dna of Vinca culture was G2, and some less common as I2 and E1b1 ! Modern Albanians have a lot of J2b2 , but it is of Caspian steppe origin. It has nothing to do with the native calcolithic haplogroups. Stop speculating.