PDA

View Full Version : Auvergne genetic history



Sile
20-09-13, 22:13
Reading the 2009 paper from Ramos-luis and other papers, I find it puzzling that there is a lack of I* marker in central France, basically Cavennes mountain ranges.

the paper only tested 89 people for the following marker
R1b -M269 , 28 = 31.46%
R1b-U152 , 15 = 16.84%
R1b-U106 , 3 = 3.37%
R1b-sry2627, 1 = 1.12%

E-M81 , 5 = 5.62%
E-M78 , 3 = 3.37%
E1b1b , 2 = 2.25%
E-M123 , 1 = 1.12%

J1 , 3 = 3.37%
J2 , 7 = 7.87%

G* , 8 = 9.0%

T1-M70 , 3 = 3.37%
K , 1 = 1.12% .............found to be T-M184 ( xM70)

R1a , 5 = 5.62%

and finally I* , 4 = 4.5%

The area was dominated by the Arverni tribe ( gallic) and its eastern neighbours the Sequani tribe ( a celtic-helvetic mix)

Why the lack of I marker is the issue, was this central european, "germanic"/ gothic /Burgundian marker avoiding the mountains of Auvergne?
- Is the E, J, T and G markers neolithic and another mountain range was sought as a haven in ancient times?
- We clearly see the 58% of R1b is the majority, a clear mix gallic-helvetic-liguri peoples (celts?)

Did the burgundians who ruled the area later really have I marker in their East-Germanic origins?

adamo
21-09-13, 01:53
Wow, even in Auvergne frequencies, the alpine Gallic marker u152 is important, affecting some 15% of males; very interesting Sile!

adamo
21-09-13, 01:54
So the most frequent hg is, obviously, the R1b mutation with P312/S116 encompassing about 3/10 males and u152, which is downstream of P312 comes in at 15% of French males from Auvergne.

adamo
21-09-13, 01:58
Wow; an excellent representation of France: 60%(!) of males belong to R1b; France is a predominantly Celtic nation in terms of Y-DNA. Other countries with notably high R1b frequencies are Wales (90%), Ireland (85!%), England (75%), Spain (75%) Holland and Belgium have (65%) R1b and Switzerland, Italy and Germany come in with 50% R1b.

Nobody1
21-09-13, 03:39
@ Sile;

Can you post a link (PDF or something else) for the Ramos-Luis 2009 study;
I have only seen the figures never the study; would be good;

Sile
21-09-13, 04:15
@ Sile;

Can you post a link (PDF or something else) for the Ramos-Luis 2009 study;
I have only seen the figures never the study; would be good;

Are you talking about all his french study , attached is all of france DNA or ?

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/5888/bv7d.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/534/bv7d.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Nobody1
21-09-13, 04:38
Are you talking about all his french study , attached is all of france DNA or ?

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Yes the 2009 study;

I only got this;
http://secher.bernard.free.fr/DNA/RamosLuis-FrenchYDNA.pdf#Rfig1

But i was told that thats not the complete study and i only saw the exact Y-DNA figures posted but never the full study of it; But thanks for posting the chart;

Seems like Larmuseau et al 2012 used the same samples (and got the same figures) from Ramos-Luis 2009;

Larmuseau et al 2012
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/--V16hdxUvkA/T5HPNvs-8DI/AAAAAAAAEyI/k_vrA5xs3Hc/s640/flemish.jpg

MOESAN
21-09-13, 10:16
just some remarks:
WE LACK BIG SAMPLES EVERYWHERE OR ALMOST SO THE MINOR HGs ARE NOT RELIABLE ENOUGH
Y-R1B in France reaches is higher %s on the Atlantic fringes, the most in Basque country and then in Brittany -
the alpine U152 seems more dense in E-Brittany than in W-Brittany, and it is very slight in Basque C.
the E1b-M81 northafrican is very high in Auvergne: not too surprised: it is old in W-Europe
don not confuse Auvergne with Forez, mountainous part of Lyonnais, this last province more occupied by Burgundians than Auvergne - anthropology (physical) seems showing a bit of 'dinaroid' (some Y-I2?) strain in eastern and southern parts of Auvergne (in reality: Rouergue) when the northern parts are dominated by 'alpine' type (perhaps local females of Alps put in move by the celtic Y-R-U152 (and P312) males??? (if these ones were not 'alpinelike themselves', I don't know yet)
the Y-G input is evidently from the Languedocian Cardial, but maybe also from the Alps (but I doubt the majority of Y-G from the Alps followed this "alpine migration" well reported in all France just before bronze Age and during Bronze and Iron Age under celtic control - we see the 'alpine' type progression in France westwards at Iron Age (La Tène) until the Brittany coasts, more evident on the female side than on the male one in Brittany! I recall R-U152 seems (to scarce sample) strong enough in some parts of Poitou (the 'alpine' types were more evident in W-POitou than in E-POitou-Charentes in XX°C. but History moves!)

Angela
21-09-13, 17:38
just some remarks:
WE LACK BIG SAMPLES EVERYWHERE OR ALMOST SO THE MINOR HGs ARE NOT RELIABLE ENOUGH
Y-R1B in France reaches is higher %s on the Atlantic fringes, the most in Basque country and then in Brittany -
the alpine U152 seems more dense in E-Brittany than in W-Brittany, and it is very slight in Basque C.
the E1b-M81 northafrican is very high in Auvergne: not too surprised: it is old in W-Europe
don not confuse Auvergne with Forez, mountainous part of Lyonnais, this last province more occupied by Burgundians than Auvergne - anthropology (physical) seems showing a bit of 'dinaroid' (some Y-I2?) strain in eastern and southern parts of Auvergne (in reality: Rouergue) when the northern parts are dominated by 'alpine' type (perhaps local females of Alps put in move by the celtic Y-R-U152 (and P312) males??? (if these ones were not 'alpinelike themselves', I don't know yet)
the Y-G input is evidently from the Languedocian Cardial, but maybe also from the Alps (but I doubt the majority of Y-G from the Alps followed this "alpine migration" well reported in all France just before bronze Age and during Bronze and Iron Age under celtic control - we see the 'alpine' type progression in France westwards at Iron Age (La Tène) until the Brittany coasts, more evident on the female side than on the male one in Brittany! I recall R-U152 seems (to scarce sample) strong enough in some parts of Poitou (the 'alpine' types were more evident in W-POitou than in E-POitou-Charentes in XX°C. but History moves!)

In terms of autosomal DNA, I think the fact that the only public sample, and therefore the only one used in the calculators is from the Lyonnais may skew results for people.

Sile
21-09-13, 20:58
Yes the 2009 study;

I only got this;
http://secher.bernard.free.fr/DNA/RamosLuis-FrenchYDNA.pdf#Rfig1

But i was told that thats not the complete study and i only saw the exact Y-DNA figures posted but never the full study of it; But thanks for posting the chart;

Seems like Larmuseau et al 2012 used the same samples (and got the same figures) from Ramos-Luis 2009;

Larmuseau et al 2012
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/--V16hdxUvkA/T5HPNvs-8DI/AAAAAAAAEyI/k_vrA5xs3Hc/s640/flemish.jpg

Thats the best you will get due to the fact the french "gov'nt" are still holding it and its being updated by only one of the testers named Sanchez, I will get you her response.
The test is only based on french surnames with proven french grandparents. Which is why samples are low.

There are many other tests that sit off this one like
http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v109/n2/full/hdy201217a.html?WT.mc_id=FBK_NPG

(http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v109/n2/full/hdy201217a.html?WT.mc_id=FBK_NPG)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_France
see genetics at bottom of page

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2010-09/1283806841

Sile
21-09-13, 21:09
Thats the best you will get due to the fact the french "gov'nt" are still holding it and its being updated by oly one of the testers named Sanchez, I will get you ghere respone.
The test is only based on french surnames with proven french grandparents. Which is why samples are low.

There are many other tests that sit of this one like
http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v109/n2/full/hdy201217a.html?WT.mc_id=FBK_NPG

(http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v109/n2/full/hdy201217a.html?WT.mc_id=FBK_NPG)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_France
see genetics at bottom of page

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2010-09/1283806841

My interest is purely only the T marker , which is 5% in Alsace and 3.37% plus 1.12% K ( which is found to be T-M184 and not T1-M70) in Auvergne.
I do not know what other articles Maciano holds for France in respect for his percentage data and also haplo maps

Maciano must hold other data as the test states brittany at 13.5% of I marker while he shows only 8% on his site

adamo
22-09-13, 02:07
Interesting to note how low percentage the Germanic subclade (U106) is found in french samples, found only in about 8% of men from both Nord-Pas-De-Calais and the Ile De France region. The P312 subclade of R1b, the Celtiberian marker (highest frequencies in Spain/Portugal/France exclusively.) is found in 27.47% of men from Ile de France and about 28% of males from Nord pas de Calais. The downstream u152 mutation (gallo-italic marker) is found in roughly 15% of men from Ile de France and 17.65% (almost 20%) of males from Nord pas de Calais. Now considering that Nord pas de Calais is an extreme north-central region of France bordering Belgium, this makes sense as Belgium, just like Switzerland, were Gallic colonies. In fact, this 20% coat should continue well into the capital region of Belgium. Much of east-central France must have similar (20%) frequencies as well. This would continue towards Switzerland where there would be an extreme intensification of frequencies. 50% of Swiss males are R1b-u152+. These frequencies continue into the Po valley of northern Italy, in areas like Cuneo and Brescia, known regions of Gallic invasions, where 50% of males are R1b-u152. These very high frequencies continue into the Tuscan basin, where in the entire province, 40% of men are R1b-u152. There are peaks in "La Garfagnana" region and Pistoia are where as many as 70% of males adhere to the R1b haplogroup. This is NOT reflective of the southern portion of the peninsula, where R1b-u152 frequencies, and R1b in general, are from low to very low depending on the region.

adamo
22-09-13, 02:10
So the dominant subclade, as I had assumed, is R1b P312 in it's most basal form, then another large number of males belong to R1b-u152, who's father is R1b-P312/S116. So, on a national level, the majority of French males belong to R1b-P312 or one of it's younger sub-groups; very few belong to U-106.

Sile
22-09-13, 03:12
Interesting to note how low percentage the Germanic subclade (U106) is found in french samples, found only in about 8% of men from both Nord-Pas-De-Calais and the Ile De France region. The P312 subclade of R1b, the Celtiberian marker (highest frequencies in Spain/Portugal/France exclusively.) is found in 27.47% of men from Ile de France and about 28% of males from Nord pas de Calais. The downstream u152 mutation (gallo-italic marker) is found in roughly 15% of men from Ile de France and 17.65% (almost 20%) of males from Nord pas de Calais. Now considering that Nord pas de Calais is an extreme north-central region of France bordering Belgium, this makes sense as Belgium, just like Switzerland, where Gallic colonies. In fact, this 20% coat should continue well into the capital region of Belgium. Much of east-central France must have similar (20%) frequencies as well. This would continue towards Switzerland where there would be an extreme intensification of frequencies. 50% of Swiss males are R1b-u152+. These frequencies continue into the Po valley of northern Italy, in areas like Cuneo and Brescia, known regions of Gallic invasions, where 50% of males are R1b-u152. These very high frequencies continue into the Tuscan basin, where in the entire province, 40% of men are R1b-u152. There are peaks in "La Garfagnana" region and Pistoia are where as many as 70% of males adhere to the R1b haplogroup. This is NOT reflective of the southern portion of the peninsula, where R1b-u152 frequencies, and R1b in general, are from low to very low depending on the region.

clearly these people claiming R1b-U152 is celtic-italic-germanic are clearly wrong. I would replace germanic with gallic or even iberic before calling it Germanic

adamo
22-09-13, 03:51
Well R1b u-152 is found in about 15% of southern German males and 10% of west German males; those are Germany's highest regional frequencies; no. R1b u152 does not have a German center of gravitation. It's seems to be a Gallic marker. Now, in what concerns Italy, in the historical sense, we know of many migrations from France to Italy ( ancient arverni, senones,lingones,aedui, ambarri, aulerci,cenomani, possibly Veneti, Bituriges maybe the Volcae, Parisii, Treveri, Helvetii, carnutes all these people arrived to Italy either via France or subsequently to Switzerland then from the Swiss basin across the alps into the Po valley settlement areas. Others, like the Boii clearly arrived from the German/Czech border (Bohemia) yet more, like the Lombards, arrived from Sweden (Scandinavia) and the Ambrones settled north-Italy from Denmark.

adamo
22-09-13, 03:58
You can then contrast this with southern Italy, intense Ancient Greek colonization of Calabria and Sicily, parts of Apulia, coastal Campania, The Iapygian civilization arriving from the island of Crete to Apulia, Ancient Lucanians tribes of Basilicata and their Bruti/Morgetes Calabrian offshoots later re-acquired by the Ottoman Byzantines, the oscans where probably a rich blend of Continental Latin and Greek colonizer genetics. They would have implemented Herculanean mythology that would have been romanized.

Sile
22-09-13, 06:59
Well R1b u-152 is found in about 15% of southern German males and 10% of west German males; those are Germany's highest regional frequencies; no. R1b u152 does not have a German center of gravitation. It's seems to be a Gallic marker. Now, in what concerns Italy, in the historical sense, we know of many migrations from France to Italy ( ancient arverni, senones,lingones,aedui, ambarri, aulerci,cenomani, possibly Veneti, Bituriges maybe the Volcae, Parisii, Treveri, Helvetii, carnutes all these people arrived to Italy either via France or subsequently to Switzerland then from the Swiss basin across the alps into the Po valley settlement areas. Others, like the Boii clearly arrived from the German/Czech border (Bohemia) yet more, like the Lombards, arrived from Sweden (Scandinavia) and the Ambrones settled north-Italy from Denmark.

southern German people where the last to become German. IIRC I read somewhere they have only been German for 1600 Years i include Austrians as they where initially Bavarian. The name Austria ( austrians) first appear in 998AD

Nobody1
23-09-13, 02:41
Interesting is the contrast between Midi-Pyrenees (Toulouse) and Auvergne (Clermont-Ferrand) in Ramos-Luis et al 2009;

Midi-Pyrenees (Toulouse) 67 samples = 7.4% R1b-SRY2627 / 13.4% R1b-U152 [Keltic Gaul]
Auvergne (Clermont-Ferrand) 89 samples = 1.1% R1b-SRY2627 [Iberian] / 16.8% R1b-U152 [Keltic Gaul]

Henri Hubert - The Rise of the Celts (1934)
[I]On the other side the Iberians established themselves in force between the Pyrenees and the Garonne. Eliberre (Auch), Hungunverro, between Toulouse and Auch, and Cedagurris, between Toulouse and Saint-Bertrand, were Iberian towns, as were Elusa (Eauze), Iluro (Oloron), Tolosa (Toulouse), and Carcaso (Carcassonne).

West of the Garonne (incl. Toulouse) was non-Indo-European Iberian and Aquitani; However in the 3rd cen BC Toulouse (Tolosa) was conquered by the Indo-European Volcae (Keltic Gauls);

On the other hand, the area between the Garonne and Loire was Indo-European Keltic (Gauls); Clermont (ancient Nemossus) was the Metropolis of the Indo-European Arverni (Keltic Gauls);

Strabo - Book IV
The Arverni are situated on the Liger, their metropolis is Nemossus, a city situated on the Liger......the Arverni not only had extended their empire as far as Narbo and the boundaries of Massiliotis, but they were also masters of the tribes as far as the Pyrenees, and as far as the ocean and the Rhenus.

Based upon these Historical grounds it is revealing why R1b-U152 is in modern-days substantially high in Toulouse (Volcae) and even higher in Clermont (Arverni metropolis) - whereas R1b-SRY2627 is only substantially present in Toulouse (orig. Iberian settlement) but only very minimal (1.1%) in Clermont;

Sile
23-09-13, 08:10
Interesting is the contrast between Midi-Pyrenees (Toulouse) and Auvergne (Clermont-Ferrand) in Ramos-Luis et al 2009;

Midi-Pyrenees (Toulouse) 67 samples = 7.4% R1b-SRY2627 / 13.4% R1b-U152 [Keltic Gaul]
Auvergne (Clermont-Ferrand) 89 samples = 1.1% R1b-SRY2627 [Iberian] / 16.8% R1b-U152 [Keltic Gaul]

Henri Hubert - The Rise of the Celts (1934)
[I]On the other side the Iberians established themselves in force between the Pyrenees and the Garonne. Eliberre (Auch), Hungunverro, between Toulouse and Auch, and Cedagurris, between Toulouse and Saint-Bertrand, were Iberian towns, as were Elusa (Eauze), Iluro (Oloron), Tolosa (Toulouse), and Carcaso (Carcassonne).

West of the Garonne (incl. Toulouse) was non-Indo-European Iberian and Aquitani; However in the 3rd cen BC Toulouse (Tolosa) was conquered by the Indo-European Volcae (Keltic Gauls);

On the other hand, the area between the Garonne and Loire was Indo-European Keltic (Gauls); Clermont (ancient Nemossus) was the Metropolis of the Indo-European Arverni (Keltic Gauls);

Strabo - Book IV
The Arverni are situated on the Liger, their metropolis is Nemossus, a city situated on the Liger......the Arverni not only had extended their empire as far as Narbo and the boundaries of Massiliotis, but they were also masters of the tribes as far as the Pyrenees, and as far as the ocean and the Rhenus.

Based upon these Historical grounds it is revealing why R1b-U152 is in modern-days substantially high in Toulouse (Volcae) and even higher in Clermont (Arverni metropolis) - whereas R1b-SRY2627 is only substantially present in Toulouse (orig. Iberian settlement) but only very minimal (1.1%) in Clermont;

since the cenomanni where neighbours of the volcae, before cenomanni went to italy, would they be involved in your theory?

Nobody1
23-09-13, 08:57
since the cenomanni where neighbours of the volcae, before cenomanni went to italy, would they be involved in your theory?

No;
They have too much of an obscure ending and disappearance in order to associate or have any importance with modern-day populations in North Italy Po Valley;

The Indo-European Umbrians most notably the Insubres of the Urnfield-Golasecca and the Indo-European Veneti of the Urnfield-Este are def. the main source for the high levels of R1b-U152 in the modern-day Po Valley pops.

Keeping in mind that in the broader Indo-European context the Umbrians were akin to the proto-Kelts and both also shared a common linguistic root within the Indo-European family;

adamo
23-09-13, 09:15
I've always wondered about Italy's Volscian people...you know, Volcae in southern France, Volcae in southern Germany....I mean how suspicious is it that that there was a tribe in western France called Veneti and one of Italy's most famous provinces is called Veneto. Why is Parisi a common italian surname today, and also the name of the tribe that would found the capital of modern day France?

adamo
23-09-13, 09:17
Personally, I don't think it's just by chance, considering the overwhelming historical evidence cited by reputed historians like Livy who spoke of multiple invasions by notable Gauls and their armies such as Brennus, Bellovesus etc. movements/migrations across the alps separated at times by hundreds or thousands of years.

Nobody1
23-09-13, 15:24
@ Sile

I have looked into the sources again and mea culpa you seem to be right about the Cenomani;

Sir William Smith - Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography: Vol.I (1854)
Thus, during the great Gaulish war in B.C. 225, when the Boii and Insubres took up arms against Rome, the Cenomani, as well as their neighbours the Veneti, concluded an alliance with the republic, and the two nations together furnished a force of 20,000 men, with which they threatened the frontier of the Insubres. (Pol. 2.23, 24, 32; Strab. v. p.216.) Even when Hannibal invaded Cisalpine Gaul they continued faithful to the Romans, and furnished a body of auxiliaries, who fought with them at the battle of the Trebia. (Liv. 21.55.) After the close of the Second Punic War, however, they took part in the revolt of the Gauls under Hamilcar (B.C. 200), and again a few years later joined their arms with those of the Insubres: but even then the defection seems to have been but partial, and after their defeat by the consul C. Cornelius (B.C. 197), they hastened to submit, and thenceforth continued faithful allies of the Romans. (Liv. 31.10, 32.30, 39.3.) From this time they disappear from history, and became gradually merged in the condition of Roman subjects, until in B.C. 49 they acquired, with the rest of the Transpadane Gauls, the full rights of Roman citizens. (Dion. Cass. xli. 36.)

and also this:

Cicero - Cic. Balb. 14.31 - 56 BC
Etenim quaedam foedera exstant, ut Cenomanorum, Insubrium, Helvetiorum, Iapydum, non nullorum item ex Gallia barbarorum, quorum in foederibus exceptum est ne quis eorum a nobis civis recipiatur.
But there are in existence certain treaties, such as those with the Cenomani, Insubres, Helvetii and Iapudes, and also with some of the barbarians in Gaul, and in these treaties there is a saving clause that none of their people may be admitted by us to citizenship.

I was wrong;
The Cenomani did not fade into obscure oblivia - in fact they remained in the Po Valley (Transpadana) as Roman allies and had the same treaties in 56 BC (the Latin rights) as the Insubres did; Seven years later (49 BC) all the people of Cisalpine Gaul Cenomani and Insubres were granted the Roman Citizenship by Julius Caesar;

This means of course that the Cenomani [Iron-age LaTene Gauls] most def. had an impact on the modern-day pop. of the Po Valley (heritage) - equal to the Insubres (Umbrians); The chief-town of the Cenomani as recorded by Livius was Brixia modern-day Brescia;

Boattini et al 2013 tested 39 samples from Brescia and 51.2% (20 samples) were R1b-U152;

Sile
24-09-13, 08:13
@ Sile

I have looked into the sources again and mea culpa you seem to be right about the Cenomani;

Sir William Smith - Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography: Vol.I (1854)
Thus, during the great Gaulish war in B.C. 225, when the Boii and Insubres took up arms against Rome, the Cenomani, as well as their neighbours the Veneti, concluded an alliance with the republic, and the two nations together furnished a force of 20,000 men, with which they threatened the frontier of the Insubres. (Pol. 2.23, 24, 32; Strab. v. p.216.) Even when Hannibal invaded Cisalpine Gaul they continued faithful to the Romans, and furnished a body of auxiliaries, who fought with them at the battle of the Trebia. (Liv. 21.55.) After the close of the Second Punic War, however, they took part in the revolt of the Gauls under Hamilcar (B.C. 200), and again a few years later joined their arms with those of the Insubres: but even then the defection seems to have been but partial, and after their defeat by the consul C. Cornelius (B.C. 197), they hastened to submit, and thenceforth continued faithful allies of the Romans. (Liv. 31.10, 32.30, 39.3.) From this time they disappear from history, and became gradually merged in the condition of Roman subjects, until in B.C. 49 they acquired, with the rest of the Transpadane Gauls, the full rights of Roman citizens. (Dion. Cass. xli. 36.)

and also this:

Cicero - Cic. Balb. 14.31 - 56 BC
Etenim quaedam foedera exstant, ut Cenomanorum, Insubrium, Helvetiorum, Iapydum, non nullorum item ex Gallia barbarorum, quorum in foederibus exceptum est ne quis eorum a nobis civis recipiatur.
But there are in existence certain treaties, such as those with the Cenomani, Insubres, Helvetii and Iapudes, and also with some of the barbarians in Gaul, and in these treaties there is a saving clause that none of their people may be admitted by us to citizenship.

I was wrong;
The Cenomani did not fade into obscure oblivia - in fact they remained in the Po Valley (Transpadana) as Roman allies and had the same treaties in 56 BC (the Latin rights) as the Insubres did; Seven years later (49 BC) all the people of Cisalpine Gaul Cenomani and Insubres were granted the Roman Citizenship by Julius Caesar;

This means of course that the Cenomani [Iron-age LaTene Gauls] most def. had an impact on the modern-day pop. of the Po Valley (heritage) - equal to the Insubres (Umbrians); The chief-town of the Cenomani as recorded by Livius was Brixia modern-day Brescia;

Boattini et al 2013 tested 39 samples from Brescia and 51.2% (20 samples) were R1b-U152;

I asked about the cenomani in relation with your comments regarding avergne , that is the connection with the Volcae as the Cenomani where neighbours of the volcae in southern France before travelling to the area of Verona, Brescia and Cremona ( that's where modern Italian historians place them )

On the other hand, if the tradition recorded by Cato (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_the_Elder) (in Pliny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Elder), Nat. Hist. iii. 19. s. 23) is true, that the Cenomani formed a settlement near Massilia (modern Marseille (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marseille)), among the Volcae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcae), this could indicate a route that the Cenomani took to Cisalpine Gaul in Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy). According to Livy, the Cenomani of Cisalpine Gaul arrived after the expedition of Bellovesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellovesus), led by Helitovius (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Helitovius&action=edit&redlink=1), and are credited with the foundation of Brixia, or Brescia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brescia).

We must not confuse these with the ancient Euganei ( Rhaetian?) before they got absorbed by the migrating Veneti starting from 1100BC or before.
The Alpine tribes of the Camunni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camunni) and the Triumpilini (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Triumpilini&action=edit&redlink=1), which bordered on them on the north, are expressly described by Pliny as of Euganean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euganean) race, and were not therefore nationally connected with the Cenomani, though in his time at least united with them for administrative purposes.
The main tribe of these Euganei are the Stoni tribe
They were very probably a Pre-Indo-European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Europe) people, ethnically related with the Ingauni (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ingauni&action=edit&redlink=1), as proved by the similarity of the names. According to Pliny the Elder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Elder) the Stoni (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stoni&action=edit&redlink=1) people from Trentino (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trentino) were of the same stock as the Euganei.

Cato the Elder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_the_Elder), in the lost book of Origines, counted among the major tribes Euganeans the Triumplini of Valtrompia (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Valtrompia&action=edit&redlink=1) and the Camunni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camunni) of Val Camonica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val_Camonica).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euganean#cite_note-2)
According to Livy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livy) they were defeated by the Adriatic Veneti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti) and the Trojans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy)

MOESAN
13-10-13, 13:38
Reading the 2009 paper from Ramos-luis and other papers, I find it puzzling that there is a lack of I* marker in central France, basically Cavennes mountain ranges.

the paper only tested 89 people for the following marker
R1b -M269 , 28 = 31.46%
R1b-U152 , 15 = 16.84%
R1b-U106 , 3 = 3.37%
R1b-sry2627, 1 = 1.12%

E-M81 , 5 = 5.62%
E-M78 , 3 = 3.37%
E1b1b , 2 = 2.25%
E-M123 , 1 = 1.12%

J1 , 3 = 3.37%
J2 , 7 = 7.87%

G* , 8 = 9.0%

T1-M70 , 3 = 3.37%
K , 1 = 1.12% .............found to be T-M184 ( xM70)

R1a , 5 = 5.62%

and finally I* , 4 = 4.5%

The area was dominated by the Arverni tribe ( gallic) and its eastern neighbours the Sequani tribe ( a celtic-helvetic mix)

Why the lack of I marker is the issue, was this central european, "germanic"/ gothic /Burgundian marker avoiding the mountains of Auvergne?
- Is the E, J, T and G markers neolithic and another mountain range was sought as a haven in ancient times?
- We clearly see the 58% of R1b is the majority, a clear mix gallic-helvetic-liguri peoples (celts?)

Did the burgundians who ruled the area later really have I marker in their East-Germanic origins?

with U106 at 3,37%, I*(xI2a2) 3,37% and R1a 5,6% considering this I* has a a lot of chances to be overall Y-I1,(Maciamo gives 2% for Auvergne) we can say, proposing Burgundians were Eastern germanics (in Norway, R1b, R1a and I1 are at similar levels, but less R1a in Sweden and Denmark, but Goths and cousins in NW Poland could have taken some more R1a), these %s represent well enough this germanic invasion in east-Southeast Gallia for an amount of roughly 12% of Germanics there - reasonable bet

adamo
17-10-13, 15:36
The "Var" region of extreme southeastern France has about 20% R-S28, Alsace has 23%, Auvergne has 17-18%, same goes for Nord Pas De Calais. Some studies on northwestern France have found 20% frequencies, others claim this is a weak spot for R-S28 but in nearby southwestern Belgium and central Belgium 20-22% are R-S28 I believe.

MOESAN
18-10-13, 14:48
My interest is purely only the T marker , which is 5% in Alsace and 3.37% plus 1.12% K ( which is found to be T-M184 and not T1-M70) in Auvergne.
I do not know what other articles Maciano holds for France in respect for his percentage data and also haplo maps

Maciano must hold other data as the test states brittany at 13.5% of I marker while he shows only 8% on his site

all these surveys made in France are made on ridiculous samples for the most of them - in the alleged survey Brittany is well represented but I see no Y-E of any sort so as Maciamo produces weak but real percentage of Y-E in Brittany, I suppose his sample is bigger and more accurate - maybe could he answer you for we could know if this sample were included in his means?

Sile
18-10-13, 18:37
all these surveys made in France are made on ridiculous samples for the most of them - in the alleged survey Brittany is well represented but I see no Y-E of any sort so as Maciamo produces weak but real percentage of Y-E in Brittany, I suppose his sample is bigger and more accurate - maybe could he answer you for we could know if this sample were included in his means?

As i shared information with you before, I will continue to share about the brittany area for you - if I have any.

MOESAN
18-10-13, 21:53
I've always wondered about Italy's Volscian people...you know, Volcae in southern France, Volcae in southern Germany....I mean how suspicious is it that that there was a tribe in western France called Veneti and one of Italy's most famous provinces is called Veneto. Why is Parisi a common italian surname today, and also the name of the tribe that would found the capital of modern day France?

if VOLSCIAN is the reight spelling, you have to explain the lack of S in VOLQUE -concerning the personal name PARISI in Italy I personally doubt it traces back to the PARISI tribe of Lutecia in Gallia... concerning VENETI, look at other threads... some "hope" remains but very tiny

Nobody1
22-10-13, 13:57
.The Alpine tribes of the Camunni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camunni) and the Triumpilini (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Triumpilini&action=edit&redlink=1), which bordered on them on the north, are expressly described by Pliny as of Euganean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euganean) race, and were not therefore nationally connected with the Cenomani, though in his time at least united with them for administrative purposes.
The main tribe of these Euganei are the Stoni tribe
They were very probably a Pre-Indo-European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Europe) people, ethnically related with the Ingauni (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ingauni&action=edit&redlink=1), as proved by the similarity of the names. According to Pliny the Elder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Elder) the Stoni (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stoni&action=edit&redlink=1) people from Trentino (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trentino) were of the same stock as the Euganei.

Cato the Elder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_the_Elder), in the lost book of Origines, counted among the major tribes Euganeans the Triumplini of Valtrompia (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Valtrompia&action=edit&redlink=1) and the Camunni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camunni) of Val Camonica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val_Camonica).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euganean#cite_note-2)
According to Livy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livy) they were defeated by the Adriatic Veneti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti) and the Trojans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy)


The Ingauni were Ligurians (acc. to Livius and Strabo) and if they are related to the Euganei (based on onomastics) than that would mean that the Euganei were also Ligurians;

Which is somewhat already confirmed in that the Stoni were clearly mentioned as being Ligurians in the Fasti Triumphales;
And acc. to Plinius [III/XXIV(XX)] the Stoni/Stoeni were the main tribe of the Euganeans;

Sile
23-10-13, 07:05
The Ingauni were Ligurians (acc. to Livius and Strabo) and if they are related to the Euganei (based on onomastics) than that would mean that the Euganei were also Ligurians;

Which is somewhat already confirmed in that the Stoni were clearly mentioned as being Ligurians in the Fasti Triumphales;
And acc. to Plinius [III/XXIV(XX)] the Stoni/Stoeni were the main tribe of the Euganeans;

I did agree with your statement entirely recently, but have found that the Euganean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euganean) race where a branch of Rhaetic of late and as I supplied Angela with an ancient Italian theory that rhaetic where a branch of liguri , then it seems the Euganean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euganean) race split from rhaetic and not from liguri, but they where all inter-related

adamo
23-10-13, 14:35
Rhaetics were NOT the Ligurians, they were a northern most extension of the Etruscans into Rhaetia. The Euganei were LIGURiANs not raetians

adamo
23-10-13, 14:37
The Ligurians had something in common with early Insubres type tribes from the Danube region of Europe that probably pre-dated the Gallic invasions but were of Celtic indo-European origin.

MOESAN
23-10-13, 20:06
Rhaetics were NOT the Ligurians, they were a northern most extension of the Etruscans into Rhaetia. The Euganei were LIGURiANs not raetians

1) Rhaetic is a confusing name at some stage, because it is evident now there were two different languages spoken in the known Rhaetia: one close to etruscan, an other seemingly close to archaic western I-Ean, so not too far for what we know of ligurian (it is true, not too clear): so the truht is maybe between...

2) at linguistic level, I do'nt see EUGANEI and INGAUNI as evident cognate names: phonetics is not a "scrabble" game; U # N // A # AU at first sight; keep in mind some strange phonetical evolutions can take place with (long) time AND respecting some rules, BUT in contemporeanous names this sort of differences in spelling seem to me excluding common signification, if not common origin...

Nobody1
25-10-13, 05:50
I did agree with your statement entirely recently, but have found that the Euganean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euganean) race where a branch of Rhaetic of late and as I supplied Angela with an ancient Italian theory that rhaetic where a branch of liguri , then it seems the Euganean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euganean) race split from rhaetic and not from liguri, but they where all inter-related

The Raeti remain a mystery although so much is known and recorded - from Archaeology to Linguistics and Historical documentation;

For example;
Ampass (Demlfeld) in Tyrol - an archaeology site in Tyrol/Austria where many Raetic graves were excavated and examined; The site belongs to the Fritzens-Sanzeno culture and also includes a bronze object with Raetic inscriptions; The interesting part is that they have also found a bronze object with a Venetic inscription;

Bronze horse-head with Venetic inscription [vhilone.i. /filo(:)nej/] - Demlfeld, Tyrol
http://www.archaeotirol.at/
http://www.archaeotirol.at/fotoalbum%20demlfeld/bilder%20bearbeitet/Foto%2025.jpg

I think the Raeti are not a homogenous peoples;
They must have been including an Etruscan/Tyrsenian element along with an Indo-European Venetic ([I]and pos. also Keltic) elements with also pre-Indo-European (Ötzi/Mondsee/Altheim) type elements; The Alps were a much important district ever since the Neolithic (Mondsee/Altheim/Remedello) and also due to the Amber trade; The entire 'Raetic complex' needs a real close examination;

Sile
25-10-13, 08:34
The Raeti remain a mystery although so much is known and recorded - from Archaeology to Linguistics and Historical documentation;

For example;
Ampass (Demlfeld) in Tyrol - an archaeology site in Tyrol/Austria where many Raetic graves were excavated and examined; The site belongs to the Fritzens-Sanzeno culture and also includes a bronze object with Raetic inscriptions; The interesting part is that they have also found a bronze object with a Venetic inscription;

Bronze horse-head with Venetic inscription [vhilone.i. /filo(:)nej/] - Demlfeld, Tyrol
http://www.archaeotirol.at/
http://www.archaeotirol.at/fotoalbum%20demlfeld/bilder%20bearbeitet/Foto%2025.jpg

I think the Raeti are not a homogenous peoples;
They must have been including an Etruscan/Tyrsenian element along with an Indo-European Venetic ([I]and pos. also Keltic) elements with also pre-Indo-European (Ötzi/Mondsee/Altheim) type elements; The Alps were a much important district ever since the Neolithic (Mondsee/Altheim/Remedello) and also due to the Amber trade; The entire 'Raetic complex' needs a real close examination;

I support this, plus of the 350 plus venetic inscriptions found, 6 are in western slovenia, 18 in Austria towards modern innsbruck and the remainder in veneto and friuli ( mostly este area ). Maybe the etruscans came from the raeti and was the old theory and not the raeti came from the etruscans.
But italians claim that all north italy, tyrol and part of southern germany where liguri ( ancient types and not the genoese types)

adamo
26-10-13, 03:06
Tyrol was settled by Lombards, alemmanics and Bavarians but also has a Gallic substratum according to studies (20-30% u-152 in Trentino). Everything west of that is very predominantly Gallic with possible Lombard minorities near Trentino, Friuli or rare parts of Lombardy. Tuscany is Gallic, Liguria is Celtic with probably minor Ancient Greek presence. An oriental origin group or ancient Greeks may also have settled near Veneto in lower frequencies as well. 15-25% of both E3b and J2 are found in parts of Liguria and Veneto. The rest of the north seems untouched by this. The north is still Celtic territory. 42% R1b in Veneto, 40% Umbria, 48% Trentino-Alto Adige, 53% Tuscany, 54% Piedmont, 60% Lombardy, 48% Liguria, 41% Friuli, 50-60% Emilia-Romagna; it's present at about 55% in the north. The center drops to 50-35%; with even exceptional lows of 25% in a few rare cities. The south has 25-30%.

Sile
26-10-13, 03:17
Tyrol was settled by Lombards, alemmanics and Bavarians but also has a Gallic substratum according to studies (20-30% u-152 in Trentino). Everything west of that is very predominantly Gallic with possible Lombard minorities near Trentino, Friuli or rare parts of Lombardy. Tuscany is Gallic, Liguria is Celtic with probably minor Ancient Greek presence. An oriental origin group or ancient Greeks may also have settled near Veneto in lower frequencies as well. 15-25% of both E3b and J2 are found in parts of Liguria and Veneto. The rest of the north seems untouched by this. The north is still Celtic territory. 42% R1b in Veneto, 40% Umbria, 48% Trentino-Alto Adige, 53% Tuscany, 54% Piedmont, 60% Lombardy, 48% Liguria, 41% Friuli, 50-60% Emilia-Romagna; it's present at about 55% in the north. The center drops to 50-35%; with even exceptional lows of 25% in a few rare cities. The south has 25-30%.

you are talking about 1000 years later. when Rome conquered Tyrol the romans fought against the Rhaetic tribes , not lombards

adamo
26-10-13, 04:49
I never mentioned Romans fighting rhaetics or Lombards I just had a comment to make in the moment.

adamo
26-10-13, 04:51
I was simply mentioning that Scandinavian I1 lineages run abnormally high (20%) in the Trentino-Alto Adige/Tyrol and Friuli-Venezia-Giulia region has the same frequency. Molise has 15% I1 and Veneto has 10% I believe; all this due to the Lombards.

adamo
26-10-13, 05:50
​Tell me, do you believe the Veneti to in fact be related to the Carni as is stated, or do you believe the legends of them having been Paphlagonian Turks which could explain region E3b and J2 highs and lower R-S28 levels? Do you believe a Greek substratum extended from Massilia to Genoa? I doubt the last suggestion as Massilia was an isolated Ionian settlment; the Ligures may have been a Celti-Etruscan cultural fusion if they were not purely celts, as they extended well into northern Italy. In terms of ancient Greeks, Nestor is the hero of those who founded Pisa and metapontum. It would seem that Motya, solus, thermae egesta, thermae himerae, Eryx, leontini, cyane Fons, Reggio Calabria, lacinium, campi Flegrei, Aventinus and the entire eastern coasts of Corsica and Sardinia were inhabited by Greeks that venerated Hercules. Although in Lilybaeum, drepanum and Aegesta the Trojan Aeneas was venerated. Misenum, Cumae, lacinium, laurentum and caieta are places were Aeneas was also worshipped. Not to mention Palinurus, Portus Veneris and Castrum Minervae in Apulia where Trojan Aeneas was venerated as well. Ulysses was worshipped in Thrinacia and Oddysseum (southern Sicily) Aetna and at various sites on the eastern Sicilian coast. The Latins, Ausones, Circe and formia regions of Italy , Avernus, sirenusae, leucosia, dracontis heroum, polite heroum, calypsus, charybdes were all places/people that worshipped Ulixes. Iason/Colchi from Georgia obviously (as are the Ionian Greeks J-M67) he was worshipped at Iunonis Argivae Fanum and at Telamon and Argous Portus (Elba island) in Etruscan territory. Also the Eridanus river near Ravenna and the Istria region worshipped Iason. The Veneti inhabited Patavium and owed their origins to Antenor. Much of the Adriatic coast from Adria to southern Marche were generators to Diomedes. The people of Venafrum, Benevento, canusium Venusia, siponto, gargano also venerated Diomedes. Sybarite/thurii, petelia, macalla, crimisa and chone was were Philoctetes was venerated. At Selinus, Minoa, haluntium, Scylla, engvium, and Camici, Minos and Daedalus were venerated, indicating Minoan Cretan origin for these particular Sicilians.

Sile
26-10-13, 06:07
​Tell me, do you believe the Veneti to in fact be related to the Carni as is stated, or do you believe the legends of them having been Paphlagonian Turks which could explain region E3b and J2 highs and lower R-S28 levels? Do you believe a Greek substratum extended from Massilia to Genoa? I doubt the last suggestion as Massilia was an isolated Ionian settlment; the Ligures may have been a Celti-Etruscan cultural fusion if they were not purely celts, as they extended well into northern Italy. In terms of ancient Greeks, Nestor is the hero of those who founded Pisa and metapontum. It would seem that Motya, solus, thermae egesta, thermae himerae, Eryx, leontini, cyane Fons, Reggio Calabria, lacinium, campi Flegrei, Aventinus and the entire eastern coasts of Corsica and Sardinia were inhabited by Greeks that venerated Hercules. Although in Lilybaeum, drepanum and Aegesta the Trojan Aeneas was venerated. Misenum, Cumae, lacinium, laurentum and caieta are places were Aeneas was also worshipped. Not to mention Palinurus, Portus Veneris and Castrum Minervae in Apulia where Trojan Aeneas was venerated as well. Ulysses was worshipped in Thrinacia and Oddysseum (southern Sicily) Aetna and at various sites on the eastern Sicilian coast. The Latins, Ausones, Circe and formia regions of Italy , Avernus, sirenusae, leucosia, dracontis heroum, polite heroum, calypsus, charybdes were all places/people that worshipped Ulixes. Iason/Colchi from Georgia obviously (as are the Ionian Greeks J-M67) he was worshipped at Iunonis Argivae Fanum and at Telamon and Argous Portus (Elba island) in Etruscan territory. Also the Eridanus river near Ravenna and the Istria region worshipped Iason. The Veneti inhabited Patavium and owed their origins to Antenor. Much of the Adriatic coast from Adria to southern Marche were generators to Diomedes. The people of Venafrum, Benevento, canusium Venusia, siponto, gargano also venerated Diomedes. Sybarite/thurii, petelia, macalla, crimisa and chone was were Philoctetes was venerated. At Selinus, Minoa, haluntium, Scylla, engvium, and Camici, Minos and Daedalus were venerated, indicating Minoan Cretan origin for these particular Sicilians.

-Veneti are not related to carni in ancient times, became related when the carni became friulian people. The friulian has ancient gascon/west gallic vocabulary from tthe carni.
-Veneti , if they came from anatolia, did not come paphlagonia, more likely SW anatolia or bithynia area .
- The liburnians controlled the coast at the head of the adriatic, they worshipped diomedes, the veneti just came/invaded in the middle of the liburnians and adopted thier gods, same as the veneti adopted the raetic goddess reitia .

adamo
26-10-13, 06:15
Adriatic Veneti were paphlagonian Turks descended from Antenor or Syracusan Greek colonizers.

adamo
26-10-13, 06:18
There may have been a prior Celtic Veneti in the region due to the Celtic Carni presence but I doubt it. Minos and Daedalus of Crete were well-worshipped across Sicily and Aeneas of Troy was worshipped in western Sicily and in southern Apulia. Not to mention Iason's link with Elba island and Telamon, as we know the Etruscans Caucasus origins. Also those who worshipped Diomedes (most of them across southern Italy the sites I named) are probably Pelasgian as well.

Nobody1
26-10-13, 07:12
Strabo - Book V/I
Concerning the Heneti there are two traditions, some saying that they are a colony of those Kelts of the same name who dwell by the ocean. Others say that they are descended from the Veneti of Paphlagonia, who took refuge here with Antenor after the Trojan war;

I am not entirely sure;
But i am more inclined to believe that the Veneti of the Adriatic are ultimately the Eneti of Paphlagonia;
Keeping in mind that the Eneti of Paphlagonia were not Pelasgians - They were Indo-Europeans;
Both Adriatic Venetic as well as the Anatolian branch are centum Indo-European languages;
And keeping in mind that Adriatic Venetic is of a diff. branch than Italic or Keltic - but with similarities;

Strabo - Book XII/III
And others say that a tribe called Eneti, bordering on the Cappadocians, made an expedition with the Cimmerians and then were driven out to the Adriatic Sea. But the thing upon which there is general agreement is, that the Eneti, to whom Pylaemenes belonged, were the most notable tribe of the Paphlagonians, and that, furthermore, these made the expedition with him in very great numbers, but, losing their leader, crossed over to Thrace after the capture of Troy, and on their wanderings went to the Enetian country,

Livius - Book I/I
The combined force of Enetians and Trojans defeated the Euganei, who dwelt between the sea and the Alps and occupied their land.

I am not entirely sure; But it is plausible;

Sile
26-10-13, 08:10
Strabo - Book V/I
Concerning the Heneti there are two traditions, some saying that they are a colony of those Kelts of the same name who dwell by the ocean. Others say that they are descended from the Veneti of Paphlagonia, who took refuge here with Antenor after the Trojan war;

I am not entirely sure;
But i am more inclined to believe that the Veneti of the Adriatic are ultimately the Eneti of Paphlagonia;
Keeping in mind that the Eneti of Paphlagonia were not Pelasgians - They were Indo-Europeans;
Both Adriatic Venetic as well as the Anatolian branch are centum Indo-European languages;
And keeping in mind that Adriatic Venetic is of a diff. branch than Italic or Keltic - but with similarities;

Strabo - Book XII/III
And others say that a tribe called Eneti, bordering on the Cappadocians, made an expedition with the Cimmerians and then were driven out to the Adriatic Sea. But the thing upon which there is general agreement is, that the Eneti, to whom Pylaemenes belonged, were the most notable tribe of the Paphlagonians, and that, furthermore, these made the expedition with him in very great numbers, but, losing their leader, crossed over to Thrace after the capture of Troy, and on their wanderings went to the Enetian country,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eneti
Above is old name of Enete which is modern Samsun city.....it is not in ancient paphlagonia. There is no homer story that the eneti went to troy........read what he states.
Homer confused the story of Jason and the argonauts, when jason escaped with medea he stopped and rested at enete

-piero states the ancient veneti spoke http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaic_language and that was paphlogonia, but its not enete people, they are kaskas people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaskas

- and cimmerians only entered the balkans in 700Bc, elisa perego has via archeology already label veneti in the adriatic from 1150BC.........450 years missing here with the cimmerians strabo story



Livius - Book I/I
The combined force of Enetians and Trojans defeated the Euganei, who dwelt between the sea and the Alps and occupied their land.

I am not entirely sure; But it is plausible;


yes and its true and the euganei eventually became veneti......which is why in Italy, when the say the tre venezia's ( three venice's) , its Venezia-Euganei, Venezia-Trentina and Venezia-Giulia....all are veneti

Nobody1
26-10-13, 08:24
@ Sile

As i said i am not very sure about it either;
not really sure at all;

Strabo presents us with 3 options;
1. Colony from Armorica Kelts
2. An expedition of Cimmerians
3. Paphlagonian army at Troja with Pylaemenes and Antenor;

All of them are not very convincing;
Option 3. is largely (if not completely) based on Mythology and Strabo even gives the only reason why people believed in this scenario;

Strabo - V/I
they give as a proof of this the attention these people bestow on rearing horses; which, though now entirely abandoned, was formerly in great esteem among them, resulting from the ancient rage for breeding mules, which Homer thus mentions: 'From the Eneti for forest mules renowned'

This is the only reason or "proof" for the Mythological scenario;
And its truly 'Rearing Horses and Breeding Mules' not very convincing;

Fact remains the Veneti are Indo-Europeans - and whether they came directly from the Urheimat or via Anatolia (with Trojans or with Cimmerians) is actually absolutely secondary;

adamo
27-10-13, 07:42
Something has to explain the 18% E3b (all E-V13) in the Vicenza region though, not Ro mention the 15% J2.

flagal007
07-01-14, 04:01
Hello everyone. This is my first reply, so please bear with me. I got started in DNA search while doing the history of my family. Lucky for me kathryn Keats-Rohan can trace my family. Supposedly I am a descendant of the Rorgonides of France and I am descended from the House of Dol. According to my haleogroup I am H6a1b1. Most of the DNA shows Northern and Southern Europe. I am still trying to figure this stuff out and feel absolutely dumb. If you have any info I sure would like to hear about it.

adamo
07-01-14, 12:44
My genographic project mtdna H results:

This wave of migration into western Europe marked the appearance and spread of what archaeologists call the Aurignacian culture, a culture distinguished by significant innovations in methods of manufacturing tools, standardization of tools, and use of a broader set of tool types, such as end-scrapers for preparing animal skins and tools for woodworking.


Around 15,000 to 20,000 years ago, colder temperatures and a drier global climate locked much of the world’s fresh water at the polar ice caps, making living conditions near impossible for much of the northern hemisphere. Early Europeans retreated to the warmer climates of the Iberian Peninsula, Italy, and the Balkans, where they waited out the cold spell. Their population sizes were drastically reduced, and much of the genetic diversity that had previously existed in Europe was lost.


Beginning about 15,000 years ago—after the ice sheets had begun their retreat—humans moved north again and recolonized western Europe. By far the most frequent mitochondrial lineage carried by these expanding groups was haplogroup H. Because of the population growth that quickly followed this expansion, your haplogroup now dominates the European female landscape.


Today haplogroup H comprises 40 to 60 percent of the gene pool of most European populations. In Rome and Athens, for example, the frequency of H is around 40 percent of the entire population, and it exhibits similar frequencies throughout western Europe. Moving eastward the frequencies of H gradually decreases, clearly illustrating the migratory path these settlers followed as they left the Iberian Peninsula after the ice sheets had receded. Haplogroup H is found at around 25 percent in Turkey and around 20 percent in the Caucasus Mountains.


While haplogroup H is considered the Western European lineage due to its high frequency there, it is also found much further east. Today it comprises around 20 percent of southwest Asian lineages, about 15 percent of people living in Central Asia, and around five percent in northern Asia.


Importantly, the age of haplogroup H lineages differs quite substantially between those seen in the West compared with those found in the East. In Europe its age is estimated at 10,000 to 15,000 years old, and while H made it into Europe substantially earlier (30,000 years ago), reduced population sizes resulting from the glacial maximum significantly reduced its diversity there, and thus its estimated age. In Central and East Asia, however, its age is estimated at around 30,000 years old, meaning your lineage made it into those areas during some of the earlier migrations out of the Near East.


Haplogroup H is a great example of the effect that population dynamics such as bottleneck events, founder effect, genetic drift, and rapid population growth, have on the genetic diversity of resulting populations.


Later migrations, such as those during the Neolithic Revolution and those triggered by the Bronze Age, brought additional groups containing different descendant branches of this line to Europe.


POINTS OF INTEREST:
"The highest percentage of this line in Europe is in Ireland, where it makes up 61 percent of the female population."

"Though lush today, France and much of Europe fell into a deep freeze that peaked 22,000 years ago. Haplogroup H survivors recolonized the continent when temperatures rose."

"From Italy to Scandinavia, Europeans show wide ethnic diversity, yet many are descended from the same small bands of ice age survivors who recolonized much of the continent."

"Haplogroup H is found in 40 to 60 percent of most European populations, modern descendants of ice age survivors and later migrations like the Neolithic Revolution."

NOTABLE PEOPLE:
"French queen Marie Antoinette and Russian Renaissance astronomer Nicholas Copernicus were members of this lineage."

LeBrok
08-01-14, 02:05
My genographic project mtdna H results:

This wave of migration into western Europe marked the appearance and spread of what archaeologists call the Aurignacian culture, a culture distinguished by significant innovations in methods of manufacturing tools, standardization of tools, and use of a broader set of tool types, such as end-scrapers for preparing animal skins and tools for woodworking.


Around 15,000 to 20,000 years ago, colder temperatures and a drier global climate locked much of the world’s fresh water at the polar ice caps, making living conditions near impossible for much of the northern hemisphere. Early Europeans retreated to the warmer climates of the Iberian Peninsula, Italy, and the Balkans, where they waited out the cold spell. Their population sizes were drastically reduced, and much of the genetic diversity that had previously existed in Europe was lost.


Beginning about 15,000 years ago—after the ice sheets had begun their retreat—humans moved north again and recolonized western Europe. By far the most frequent mitochondrial lineage carried by these expanding groups was haplogroup H. Because of the population growth that quickly followed this expansion, your haplogroup now dominates the European female landscape.


Today haplogroup H comprises 40 to 60 percent of the gene pool of most European populations. In Rome and Athens, for example, the frequency of H is around 40 percent of the entire population, and it exhibits similar frequencies throughout western Europe. Moving eastward the frequencies of H gradually decreases, clearly illustrating the migratory path these settlers followed as they left the Iberian Peninsula after the ice sheets had receded. Haplogroup H is found at around 25 percent in Turkey and around 20 percent in the Caucasus Mountains.


While haplogroup H is considered the Western European lineage due to its high frequency there, it is also found much further east. Today it comprises around 20 percent of southwest Asian lineages, about 15 percent of people living in Central Asia, and around five percent in northern Asia.


Importantly, the age of haplogroup H lineages differs quite substantially between those seen in the West compared with those found in the East. In Europe its age is estimated at 10,000 to 15,000 years old, and while H made it into Europe substantially earlier (30,000 years ago), reduced population sizes resulting from the glacial maximum significantly reduced its diversity there, and thus its estimated age. In Central and East Asia, however, its age is estimated at around 30,000 years old, meaning your lineage made it into those areas during some of the earlier migrations out of the Near East.


Haplogroup H is a great example of the effect that population dynamics such as bottleneck events, founder effect, genetic drift, and rapid population growth, have on the genetic diversity of resulting populations.


NOTABLE PEOPLE:
"French queen Marie Antoinette and Russian Renaissance astronomer Nicholas Copernicus were members of this lineage."
I think it is plausible.

Except this:
...Russian Renaissance astronomer Nicholas Copernicus were members of this lineage.

adamo
08-01-14, 04:15
"French queen Marie Antoinette and Renaissance astronomer Nicholas Copernicus were members of this lineage." - genographic project 2.0; he was Prussian (polish).

adamo
08-01-14, 06:47
Trust me; they called the poles "Prussians" for a reason! R1a; think paternal origins and it becomes easy to see, as opposed to the Germans just nearby (although R1a is found at 20% or so across easternmost Germany, due to contact with poles). As for mtdna H in Poland, same as Hungary, Greece, Austria, Germany, Portugal, Latvia or Croatia and much of Europe (40-45% H on a national level). Mtdna h follows no ethnic/cultural patterns; it simply dominates in different countries ALL over Europe between 55-40%, it has a west-to-east gradient with highest frequencies in westernmost Europe (from where it would spread via Iberian ice age refugium after last ice age) and lower ones in the east, dropping to 35-25% once we reach the Moscovian plains of western Russia.

Sile
08-01-14, 08:33
Trust me; they called the poles "Prussians" for a reason! R1a; think paternal origins and it becomes easy to see, as opposed to the Germans just nearby (although R1a is found at 20% or so across easternmost Germany, due to contact with poles). As for mtdna H in Poland, same as Hungary, Greece, Austria, Germany, Portugal, Latvia or Croatia and much of Europe (40-45% H on a national level). Mtdna h follows no ethnic/cultural patterns; it simply dominates in different countries ALL over Europe between 55-40%, it has a west-to-east gradient with highest frequencies in westernmost Europe (from where it would spread via Iberian ice age refugium after last ice age) and lower ones in the east, dropping to 35-25% once we reach the Moscovian plains of western Russia.

IIRC mr. Ken N stated 6 months ago that the Prussians and Pomeranians where a I2* ( or was it I1*) branch and had nearly zero R1a. in the prussian project thread by starkey IIRC it has N marker as well

adamo
08-01-14, 09:16
Which means they had nothing to do with Russia considering they were Germanic, I always thought Prussians were Slavs in Poland from Russia.

LeBrok
08-01-14, 09:49
Trust me; they called the poles "Prussians" for a reason! Who called Poles "Prussians"?

LeBrok
08-01-14, 10:01
IIRC mr. Ken N stated 6 months ago that the Prussians and Pomeranians where a I2* ( or was it I1*) branch and had nearly zero R1a. in the prussian project thread by starkey IIRC it has N marker as well
By what miracle Prussians and Pomeranian wouldn't have R1a? It is plenty of it in every Prussian DNA project. Few months about sparkey did some calculations.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28371-How-Old-Prussian-were-the-East-Prussian-Germans

Nobody1
08-01-14, 10:05
Russian Renaissance astronomer Nicholas Copernicus were members of this lineage

Who ever told you Copernicus was Russian played a trick on you;
Copernicus was Polish (part German) native of Krakow - Kingdom of Poland;


Which means they had nothing to do with Russia considering they were Germanic, I always thought Prussians were Slavs in Poland from Russia.

Try Baltic

LeBrok
08-01-14, 10:06
Which means they had nothing to do with Russia considering they were Germanic, I always thought Prussians were Slavs in Poland from Russia.
Prussians were Balts. They were related to Lithuanians. Later they were germanized by Teutonic Knights.

adamo
08-01-14, 10:19
Their seat of power was once Berlin so it goes well with a Germanic connection....if someone could find evidence showing them as Baltic I would appreciate it, as I don't know much about them.ntey seem to have been Germanic in a sea of Slavs and let's to the north (Lithuanian types).

Nobody1
08-01-14, 10:20
Rebala et al 2012
http://bhusers.upf.edu/dcomas/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Rebala2013.pdf

204 samples Kaszuby (Pomoranen)
= 62.2% R1a-M17 (127 samples)
= 18.1% I-M170 (37 samples)

adamo
08-01-14, 10:26
I feel they were a balto-Slavic mix, but somehow Germanic lineages got more involved and Baltic influence was much lesser.

Nobody1
08-01-14, 10:38
Their seat of power was once Berlin so it goes well with a Germanic connection....if someone could find evidence showing them as Baltic I would appreciate it, as I don't know much about them.

Not those Prussians;
Those Prussians are Brandenburg-Preußen (Hohenzollern)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/Brandenburg-Preu%C3%9Fen1688.JPG

Prussia was first lent/fief to the Margraviate of Brandenburg by the Polish King and after the battle of Warsaw 1656 - Brandenburg was granted sovereignty over Prussia by the Swedish King Karl X Gustav in Treaty of Labiau 1656; That state further expanded under Frederick II (the Great) with conquest of Silesia (Habsburg domain) etc. etc.

All of Brandenburg-Preußen was elevated to Kingdom of Prussia (i.e. Prussians) in 1701;

adamo
08-01-14, 10:49
But how would they be classified?

Nobody1
08-01-14, 11:04
But how would they be classified?

The Prussians in the Duchy [Hzm.] were Balts;
Akin to the Baltic Curonians, Lithuanians and Jatwingern;

Everything else in that region is either Germanic or Slavic;
Keeping in mind that in the Medieval times East Germany (east of Elbe) was equally Slavic (Polabian - Sorbs/Veleti/Obotrites); With among the Veleti (Winuler/pos. also Ranen) and Obotrites (Warnen) being remnant East Germanic elements;

Lausitz is still Slavic (Sorbs) but the rest was all conquered and subjugated by Germanic (mostly Saxons/Altsachsen also Alemannic/Swabians and Ripuarian Franks) in the Medieval era; Albrecht der Bär conquered the Spree(Berlin) area from Jaxa;

Sile
08-01-14, 11:36
I feel they were a balto-Slavic mix, but somehow Germanic lineages got more involved and Baltic influence was much lesser.

this is the break down of ancient old prussians ( not germanic prussian or slavic Prussians) as per latvian and lithaunian scholars

N1c (58%)
I (29%)
R1a (7.5%)
R1b (3.5%)
BR ( 1% ) .............i do not know what this is
K ( 1% ) ..........found it to be L

Sile
08-01-14, 11:38
By what miracle Prussians and Pomeranian wouldn't have R1a? It is plenty of it in every Prussian DNA project. Few months about sparkey did some calculations.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28371-How-Old-Prussian-were-the-East-Prussian-Germans

yes there is, but very low see other post by me

adamo
08-01-14, 11:52
Okay so they were high in N1c lol, different story.

Sile
08-01-14, 12:05
Okay so they were high in N1c lol, different story.

why where the balts eliminated as a race, what about thracians, gallic and pelagasians..............we need to ensure they have their own race in society...others are the Kurds and Assyrians.

Maybe if Scotland win independence this year, it will be the start of a resurrection of old races in europe and then the globe.

adamo
08-01-14, 12:29
I'm sure Scotland will go about their independence in a non-discriminatory fashion, although I don't support these separatist stats, nor Catalonia; makes things very complicated for "nationalistic pride", worst reason, we saw where nationalism lead the Germans in forty five. As for the rest of your question I don't even understand it.

Sile
08-01-14, 12:59
I'm sure Scotland will go about their independence in a non-discriminatory fashion, although I don't support these separatist stats, nor Catalonia; makes things very complicated for "nationalistic pride", worst reason, we saw where nationalism lead the Germans in forty five. As for the rest of your question I don't even understand it.

It's simple...if you want an European Union, then we must destroy every big nation in Europe. Brussels would like 4 in italy, 5 in France etc, basically the split which they use for voting. If you want to retain big nations in Europe, then destroy the EU........you cannot have both. Nations have too much power for the EU to handle correctly.

You want democracy and you do not let certain races have what they want.........all you canadians are confusing. My cousins from Toronto, Montreal and Quebec are just as confusing to each other

LeBrok
08-01-14, 18:17
this is the break down of ancient old prussians ( not germanic prussian or slavic Prussians) as per latvian and lithaunian scholars

N1c (58%)
I (29%)
R1a (7.5%)
R1b (3.5%)
BR ( 1% ) .............i do not know what this is
K ( 1% ) ..........found it to be L
Where is the link to these scholars. You should have realized we won't let you off the hook with these numbers. :83:

LeBrok
09-01-14, 00:09
Trust me; they called the poles "Prussians" for a reason! R1a; think paternal origins and it becomes easy to see, as opposed to the Germans just nearby (although R1a is found at 20% or so across easternmost Germany, due to contact with poles). As for mtdna H in Poland, same as Hungary, Greece, Austria, Germany, Portugal, Latvia or Croatia and much of Europe (40-45% H on a national level). Mtdna h follows no ethnic/cultural patterns; it simply dominates in different countries ALL over Europe between 55-40%, it has a west-to-east gradient with highest frequencies in westernmost Europe (from where it would spread via Iberian ice age refugium after last ice age) and lower ones in the east, dropping to 35-25% once we reach the Moscovian plains of western Russia.
I hope you know now who the Prussians were.
Unfortunately I can't trust you anymore.
:50:

Aberdeen
09-01-14, 02:02
Their seat of power was once Berlin so it goes well with a Germanic connection....if someone could find evidence showing them as Baltic I would appreciate it, as I don't know much about them.ntey seem to have been Germanic in a sea of Slavs and let's to the north (Lithuanian types).

Since you're so fond of Wikipedia as an authority, why don't you just go there and look up "Old Prussians" and "Prussians". These two entries will explain who the Prussians were at different times, and the information seems to be fairly accurate, unlike some Wikipedia entries. The Old Prussians were a group of Baltic tribes that inhabited the lands of the southeastern Baltic Sea in the area around the Vistula and Curonian Lagoons. They spoke a language now known as Old Prussian and followed a polytheistic religion. In the 13th century, they were conquered by christian crusaders, particularly the Teutonic Knights, but only after decades of fighting. The Old Prussians were forced to give up their religion and become christians and their lands were heavily colonized by Germanic people. The new German rulers of Prussia then became known as Prussians, and eventually built up a big kingdom and managed to create modern Germany by the 19th century. So, when you talk about Prussians, in either the genetic or cultural sense, you need to indicate whether you mean the Old Prussians or the Germanic Prussians. We don't know for certain the genetic makeup of the Old Prussians but it was probably similar to that of other Balts.

adamo
09-01-14, 02:11
So germanized Baltic people.....Sile postulated the old Prussians were high in N1c, is this true? What was their genetic composition, as they inhabited parts of Lithuania and Poland, eventually their seat of power was centered on Berlin. This makes it difficult to interpret who they were genetically speaking, as they inhabited Slavic, Germanic and Baltic territories.

Aberdeen
09-01-14, 02:15
It's simple...if you want an European Union, then we must destroy every big nation in Europe. Brussels would like 4 in italy, 5 in France etc, basically the split which they use for voting. If you want to retain big nations in Europe, then destroy the EU........you cannot have both. Nations have too much power for the EU to handle correctly.

You want democracy and you do not let certain races have what they want.........all you canadians are confusing. My cousins from Toronto, Montreal and Quebec are just as confusing to each other

Quebec francophones can't talk to the ROC (rest of Canada) in a manner we can understand because the Quebec French learn a fictional version of history and have a very different perception of what Canada is and how it came to be. And the huge waves of immigrants who came here in the last few decades don't necessarily understand either point of view, although some immigrants have integrated into either the Anglophone or French culture and so understand one side of the argument or the other but rarely both. From the Anglophone Canadian point of view, the Quebec French are a pain in the neck and different regions of Canada often have different interests even when not divided by language, so a looser confederacy of provinces might seem desirable. However, we can't split up Canada because the evil wolf to the south of us would gobble us up and we'd have to live like Americans, with no health care, lunatics running around with guns, a really massive income inequity and a higher crime rate. Canada is defined in part by not wanting to be Americans, mostly because a lot of those people are crazy. So, while the Quebec French have a fantasy that they could be a separate republic while still enjoying all the benefits of being part of Canada, the rest of us know better. Although some immigrants think that Canadian Anglophones are unreasonable in both our dislike of the Quebec French and our dislike of the worst aspects of American culture, and I imagine LeBrok will have something to say to me about some of my comments. We are, in a word, a nation divided and living in the shadow of a deranged elephant, although not everyone in Canada sees it that way. However, this is, I think, slightly off topic for the thread.

Aberdeen
09-01-14, 02:24
So germanized Baltic people.....Sile postulated the old Prussians were high in N1c, is this true? What was their genetic composition, as they inhabited parts of Lithuania and Poland, eventually their seat of power was centered on Berlin. This makes it difficult to interpret who they were genetically speaking, as they inhabited Slavic, Germanic and Baltic territories.

As I said, the genetic makeup of the Old Prussians was probably similar to that of other Balts, although nobody know for sure. And the Old Prussians didn't inhabit Slavic and Germanic territories - Slavs and Germans (mostly Germans) invaded Old Prussian territory. As I said, the Prussians whose capital was Berlin were the German speaking Prussians who were a mixture but probably mostly German.

adamo
09-01-14, 04:29
I agree with both comments, big-Berdeen.

Sile
09-01-14, 05:02
As I said, the genetic makeup of the Old Prussians was probably similar to that of other Balts, although nobody know for sure. And the Old Prussians didn't inhabit Slavic and Germanic territories - Slavs and Germans (mostly Germans) invaded Old Prussian territory. As I said, the Prussians whose capital was Berlin were the German speaking Prussians who were a mixture but probably mostly German.

I basically think it was purely a name grab by the germans and slavs to take lands that was never theirs in any time. Both germans and slavs tried settling people in the area to stake a claim. The more you claim something the more people think its yours over time. IIRC Swedish king Gustav in the tried the same thing with Pomerania and prussia , claiming it was part of the goth homeland ( ie Scandia, gotland, pomerania and prusi lands). He even had it in his title as monarch of Sweden. Unsure about now.

It similar to England staking a claim in Northern Ireland, they pushed a lot of English people to migrate and many many nobles where given lands there to establish a foothold ...............but some people resist foreign migration!

MOESAN
11-01-14, 21:11
very sensible post, Sile! I agree.
&: English gentry made better: they used the protestant Scots (whose name came from Ireland!) to do the dirty work in Ulster!
people is forgetful: Celts and almost Celts fighting one against an other: how frightful! whe the lower classes people understand where their true enemy stands, world would be "cooler"... I'm longing to the time when people can AND support their own culture AND allow the same aim to the others, putting the "uber alles" aspect in the rubbish tin, but maybe is it too late? the "all for myself" individual concept is favoring a new model of (economic) war in evolved countries in place of the collective ones: when a thing is bad we find very quickly an other bad thing to replace it...
but I look at my watch and see it is the hour of my aperitive session: things are suddenly going better !

Sile
18-01-14, 01:42
There is another paper on french dna by the same person as before, does anyone know if anything has been changed in regards to his new findings.