Auvergne genetic history

Sile

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Ethnic group
North Alpine Italian
Y-DNA haplogroup
T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
mtDNA haplogroup
H95a1 ..Pannoni
Reading the 2009 paper from Ramos-luis and other papers, I find it puzzling that there is a lack of I* marker in central France, basically Cavennes mountain ranges.

the paper only tested 89 people for the following marker
R1b -M269 , 28 = 31.46%
R1b-U152 , 15 = 16.84%
R1b-U106 , 3 = 3.37%
R1b-sry2627, 1 = 1.12%

E-M81 , 5 = 5.62%
E-M78 , 3 = 3.37%
E1b1b , 2 = 2.25%
E-M123 , 1 = 1.12%

J1 , 3 = 3.37%
J2 , 7 = 7.87%

G* , 8 = 9.0%

T1-M70 , 3 = 3.37%
K , 1 = 1.12% .............found to be T-M184 ( xM70)

R1a , 5 = 5.62%

and finally I* , 4 = 4.5%

The area was dominated by the Arverni tribe ( gallic) and its eastern neighbours the Sequani tribe ( a celtic-helvetic mix)

Why the lack of I marker is the issue, was this central european, "germanic"/ gothic /Burgundian marker avoiding the mountains of Auvergne?
- Is the E, J, T and G markers neolithic and another mountain range was sought as a haven in ancient times?
- We clearly see the 58% of R1b is the majority, a clear mix gallic-helvetic-liguri peoples (celts?)

Did the burgundians who ruled the area later really have I marker in their East-Germanic origins?
 
Wow, even in Auvergne frequencies, the alpine Gallic marker u152 is important, affecting some 15% of males; very interesting Sile!
 
So the most frequent hg is, obviously, the R1b mutation with P312/S116 encompassing about 3/10 males and u152, which is downstream of P312 comes in at 15% of French males from Auvergne.
 
Wow; an excellent representation of France: 60%(!) of males belong to R1b; France is a predominantly Celtic nation in terms of Y-DNA. Other countries with notably high R1b frequencies are Wales (90%), Ireland (85!%), England (75%), Spain (75%) Holland and Belgium have (65%) R1b and Switzerland, Italy and Germany come in with 50% R1b.
 
@ Sile;

Can you post a link (PDF or something else) for the Ramos-Luis 2009 study;
I have only seen the figures never the study; would be good;
 
@ Sile;

Can you post a link (PDF or something else) for the Ramos-Luis 2009 study;
I have only seen the figures never the study; would be good;

Are you talking about all his french study , attached is all of france DNA or ?



Uploaded with ImageShack.us
 
Are you talking about all his french study , attached is all of france DNA or ?

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Yes the 2009 study;

I only got this;
http://secher.bernard.free.fr/DNA/RamosLuis-FrenchYDNA.pdf#Rfig1

But i was told that thats not the complete study and i only saw the exact Y-DNA figures posted but never the full study of it; But thanks for posting the chart;

Seems like Larmuseau et al 2012 used the same samples (and got the same figures) from Ramos-Luis 2009;

Larmuseau et al 2012
flemish.jpg
 
just some remarks:
WE LACK BIG SAMPLES EVERYWHERE OR ALMOST SO THE MINOR HGs ARE NOT RELIABLE ENOUGH
Y-R1B in France reaches is higher %s on the Atlantic fringes, the most in Basque country and then in Brittany -
the alpine U152 seems more dense in E-Brittany than in W-Brittany, and it is very slight in Basque C.
the E1b-M81 northafrican is very high in Auvergne: not too surprised: it is old in W-Europe
don not confuse Auvergne with Forez, mountainous part of Lyonnais, this last province more occupied by Burgundians than Auvergne - anthropology (physical) seems showing a bit of 'dinaroid' (some Y-I2?) strain in eastern and southern parts of Auvergne (in reality: Rouergue) when the northern parts are dominated by 'alpine' type (perhaps local females of Alps put in move by the celtic Y-R-U152 (and P312) males??? (if these ones were not 'alpinelike themselves', I don't know yet)
the Y-G input is evidently from the Languedocian Cardial, but maybe also from the Alps (but I doubt the majority of Y-G from the Alps followed this "alpine migration" well reported in all France just before bronze Age and during Bronze and Iron Age under celtic control - we see the 'alpine' type progression in France westwards at Iron Age (La Tène) until the Brittany coasts, more evident on the female side than on the male one in Brittany! I recall R-U152 seems (to scarce sample) strong enough in some parts of Poitou (the 'alpine' types were more evident in W-POitou than in E-POitou-Charentes in XX°C. but History moves!)
 
just some remarks:
WE LACK BIG SAMPLES EVERYWHERE OR ALMOST SO THE MINOR HGs ARE NOT RELIABLE ENOUGH
Y-R1B in France reaches is higher %s on the Atlantic fringes, the most in Basque country and then in Brittany -
the alpine U152 seems more dense in E-Brittany than in W-Brittany, and it is very slight in Basque C.
the E1b-M81 northafrican is very high in Auvergne: not too surprised: it is old in W-Europe
don not confuse Auvergne with Forez, mountainous part of Lyonnais, this last province more occupied by Burgundians than Auvergne - anthropology (physical) seems showing a bit of 'dinaroid' (some Y-I2?) strain in eastern and southern parts of Auvergne (in reality: Rouergue) when the northern parts are dominated by 'alpine' type (perhaps local females of Alps put in move by the celtic Y-R-U152 (and P312) males??? (if these ones were not 'alpinelike themselves', I don't know yet)
the Y-G input is evidently from the Languedocian Cardial, but maybe also from the Alps (but I doubt the majority of Y-G from the Alps followed this "alpine migration" well reported in all France just before bronze Age and during Bronze and Iron Age under celtic control - we see the 'alpine' type progression in France westwards at Iron Age (La Tène) until the Brittany coasts, more evident on the female side than on the male one in Brittany! I recall R-U152 seems (to scarce sample) strong enough in some parts of Poitou (the 'alpine' types were more evident in W-POitou than in E-POitou-Charentes in XX°C. but History moves!)

In terms of autosomal DNA, I think the fact that the only public sample, and therefore the only one used in the calculators is from the Lyonnais may skew results for people.
 
Yes the 2009 study;

I only got this;
http://secher.bernard.free.fr/DNA/RamosLuis-FrenchYDNA.pdf#Rfig1

But i was told that thats not the complete study and i only saw the exact Y-DNA figures posted but never the full study of it; But thanks for posting the chart;

Seems like Larmuseau et al 2012 used the same samples (and got the same figures) from Ramos-Luis 2009;

Larmuseau et al 2012
flemish.jpg

Thats the best you will get due to the fact the french "gov'nt" are still holding it and its being updated by only one of the testers named Sanchez, I will get you her response.
The test is only based on french surnames with proven french grandparents. Which is why samples are low.

There are many other tests that sit off this one like
http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v109/n2/full/hdy201217a.html?WT.mc_id=FBK_NPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_France
see genetics at bottom of page

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2010-09/1283806841
 
Thats the best you will get due to the fact the french "gov'nt" are still holding it and its being updated by oly one of the testers named Sanchez, I will get you ghere respone.
The test is only based on french surnames with proven french grandparents. Which is why samples are low.

There are many other tests that sit of this one like
http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v109/n2/full/hdy201217a.html?WT.mc_id=FBK_NPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_France
see genetics at bottom of page

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2010-09/1283806841

My interest is purely only the T marker , which is 5% in Alsace and 3.37% plus 1.12% K ( which is found to be T-M184 and not T1-M70) in Auvergne.
I do not know what other articles Maciano holds for France in respect for his percentage data and also haplo maps

Maciano must hold other data as the test states brittany at 13.5% of I marker while he shows only 8% on his site
 
Interesting to note how low percentage the Germanic subclade (U106) is found in french samples, found only in about 8% of men from both Nord-Pas-De-Calais and the Ile De France region. The P312 subclade of R1b, the Celtiberian marker (highest frequencies in Spain/Portugal/France exclusively.) is found in 27.47% of men from Ile de France and about 28% of males from Nord pas de Calais. The downstream u152 mutation (gallo-italic marker) is found in roughly 15% of men from Ile de France and 17.65% (almost 20%) of males from Nord pas de Calais. Now considering that Nord pas de Calais is an extreme north-central region of France bordering Belgium, this makes sense as Belgium, just like Switzerland, were Gallic colonies. In fact, this 20% coat should continue well into the capital region of Belgium. Much of east-central France must have similar (20%) frequencies as well. This would continue towards Switzerland where there would be an extreme intensification of frequencies. 50% of Swiss males are R1b-u152+. These frequencies continue into the Po valley of northern Italy, in areas like Cuneo and Brescia, known regions of Gallic invasions, where 50% of males are R1b-u152. These very high frequencies continue into the Tuscan basin, where in the entire province, 40% of men are R1b-u152. There are peaks in "La Garfagnana" region and Pistoia are where as many as 70% of males adhere to the R1b haplogroup. This is NOT reflective of the southern portion of the peninsula, where R1b-u152 frequencies, and R1b in general, are from low to very low depending on the region.
 
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So the dominant subclade, as I had assumed, is R1b P312 in it's most basal form, then another large number of males belong to R1b-u152, who's father is R1b-P312/S116. So, on a national level, the majority of French males belong to R1b-P312 or one of it's younger sub-groups; very few belong to U-106.
 
Interesting to note how low percentage the Germanic subclade (U106) is found in french samples, found only in about 8% of men from both Nord-Pas-De-Calais and the Ile De France region. The P312 subclade of R1b, the Celtiberian marker (highest frequencies in Spain/Portugal/France exclusively.) is found in 27.47% of men from Ile de France and about 28% of males from Nord pas de Calais. The downstream u152 mutation (gallo-italic marker) is found in roughly 15% of men from Ile de France and 17.65% (almost 20%) of males from Nord pas de Calais. Now considering that Nord pas de Calais is an extreme north-central region of France bordering Belgium, this makes sense as Belgium, just like Switzerland, where Gallic colonies. In fact, this 20% coat should continue well into the capital region of Belgium. Much of east-central France must have similar (20%) frequencies as well. This would continue towards Switzerland where there would be an extreme intensification of frequencies. 50% of Swiss males are R1b-u152+. These frequencies continue into the Po valley of northern Italy, in areas like Cuneo and Brescia, known regions of Gallic invasions, where 50% of males are R1b-u152. These very high frequencies continue into the Tuscan basin, where in the entire province, 40% of men are R1b-u152. There are peaks in "La Garfagnana" region and Pistoia are where as many as 70% of males adhere to the R1b haplogroup. This is NOT reflective of the southern portion of the peninsula, where R1b-u152 frequencies, and R1b in general, are from low to very low depending on the region.

clearly these people claiming R1b-U152 is celtic-italic-germanic are clearly wrong. I would replace germanic with gallic or even iberic before calling it Germanic
 
Well R1b u-152 is found in about 15% of southern German males and 10% of west German males; those are Germany's highest regional frequencies; no. R1b u152 does not have a German center of gravitation. It's seems to be a Gallic marker. Now, in what concerns Italy, in the historical sense, we know of many migrations from France to Italy ( ancient arverni, senones,lingones,aedui, ambarri, aulerci,cenomani, possibly Veneti, Bituriges maybe the Volcae, Parisii, Treveri, Helvetii, carnutes all these people arrived to Italy either via France or subsequently to Switzerland then from the Swiss basin across the alps into the Po valley settlement areas. Others, like the Boii clearly arrived from the German/Czech border (Bohemia) yet more, like the Lombards, arrived from Sweden (Scandinavia) and the Ambrones settled north-Italy from Denmark.
 
You can then contrast this with southern Italy, intense Ancient Greek colonization of Calabria and Sicily, parts of Apulia, coastal Campania, The Iapygian civilization arriving from the island of Crete to Apulia, Ancient Lucanians tribes of Basilicata and their Bruti/Morgetes Calabrian offshoots later re-acquired by the Ottoman Byzantines, the oscans where probably a rich blend of Continental Latin and Greek colonizer genetics. They would have implemented Herculanean mythology that would have been romanized.
 
Well R1b u-152 is found in about 15% of southern German males and 10% of west German males; those are Germany's highest regional frequencies; no. R1b u152 does not have a German center of gravitation. It's seems to be a Gallic marker. Now, in what concerns Italy, in the historical sense, we know of many migrations from France to Italy ( ancient arverni, senones,lingones,aedui, ambarri, aulerci,cenomani, possibly Veneti, Bituriges maybe the Volcae, Parisii, Treveri, Helvetii, carnutes all these people arrived to Italy either via France or subsequently to Switzerland then from the Swiss basin across the alps into the Po valley settlement areas. Others, like the Boii clearly arrived from the German/Czech border (Bohemia) yet more, like the Lombards, arrived from Sweden (Scandinavia) and the Ambrones settled north-Italy from Denmark.

southern German people where the last to become German. IIRC I read somewhere they have only been German for 1600 Years i include Austrians as they where initially Bavarian. The name Austria ( austrians) first appear in 998AD
 
Interesting is the contrast between Midi-Pyrenees (Toulouse) and Auvergne (Clermont-Ferrand) in Ramos-Luis et al 2009;

Midi-Pyrenees (Toulouse) 67 samples = 7.4% R1b-SRY2627 [Iberian] / 13.4% R1b-U152 [Keltic Gaul]
Auvergne (Clermont-Ferrand) 89 samples = 1.1% R1b-SRY2627 [Iberian] / 16.8% R1b-U152 [Keltic Gaul]

Henri Hubert - The Rise of the Celts (1934)
On the other side the Iberians established themselves in force between the Pyrenees and the Garonne. Eliberre (Auch), Hungunverro, between Toulouse and Auch, and Cedagurris, between Toulouse and Saint-Bertrand, were Iberian towns, as were Elusa (Eauze), Iluro (Oloron), Tolosa (Toulouse), and Carcaso (Carcassonne).

West of the Garonne (incl. Toulouse) was non-Indo-European Iberian and Aquitani; However in the 3rd cen BC Toulouse (Tolosa) was conquered by the Indo-European Volcae (Keltic Gauls);

On the other hand, the area between the Garonne and Loire was Indo-European Keltic (Gauls); Clermont (ancient Nemossus) was the Metropolis of the Indo-European Arverni (Keltic Gauls);

Strabo - Book IV
The Arverni are situated on the Liger, their metropolis is Nemossus, a city situated on the Liger......the Arverni not only had extended their empire as far as Narbo and the boundaries of Massiliotis, but they were also masters of the tribes as far as the Pyrenees, and as far as the ocean and the Rhenus.

Based upon these Historical grounds it is revealing why R1b-U152 is in modern-days substantially high in Toulouse (Volcae) and even higher in Clermont (Arverni metropolis) - whereas R1b-SRY2627 is only substantially present in Toulouse (orig. Iberian settlement) but only very minimal (1.1%) in Clermont;
 
Interesting is the contrast between Midi-Pyrenees (Toulouse) and Auvergne (Clermont-Ferrand) in Ramos-Luis et al 2009;

Midi-Pyrenees (Toulouse) 67 samples = 7.4% R1b-SRY2627 [Iberian] / 13.4% R1b-U152 [Keltic Gaul]
Auvergne (Clermont-Ferrand) 89 samples = 1.1% R1b-SRY2627 [Iberian] / 16.8% R1b-U152 [Keltic Gaul]

Henri Hubert - The Rise of the Celts (1934)
On the other side the Iberians established themselves in force between the Pyrenees and the Garonne. Eliberre (Auch), Hungunverro, between Toulouse and Auch, and Cedagurris, between Toulouse and Saint-Bertrand, were Iberian towns, as were Elusa (Eauze), Iluro (Oloron), Tolosa (Toulouse), and Carcaso (Carcassonne).

West of the Garonne (incl. Toulouse) was non-Indo-European Iberian and Aquitani; However in the 3rd cen BC Toulouse (Tolosa) was conquered by the Indo-European Volcae (Keltic Gauls);

On the other hand, the area between the Garonne and Loire was Indo-European Keltic (Gauls); Clermont (ancient Nemossus) was the Metropolis of the Indo-European Arverni (Keltic Gauls);

Strabo - Book IV
The Arverni are situated on the Liger, their metropolis is Nemossus, a city situated on the Liger......the Arverni not only had extended their empire as far as Narbo and the boundaries of Massiliotis, but they were also masters of the tribes as far as the Pyrenees, and as far as the ocean and the Rhenus.

Based upon these Historical grounds it is revealing why R1b-U152 is in modern-days substantially high in Toulouse (Volcae) and even higher in Clermont (Arverni metropolis) - whereas R1b-SRY2627 is only substantially present in Toulouse (orig. Iberian settlement) but only very minimal (1.1%) in Clermont;

since the cenomanni where neighbours of the volcae, before cenomanni went to italy, would they be involved in your theory?
 
since the cenomanni where neighbours of the volcae, before cenomanni went to italy, would they be involved in your theory?

No;
They have too much of an obscure ending and disappearance in order to associate or have any importance with modern-day populations in North Italy Po Valley;

The Indo-European Umbrians most notably the Insubres of the Urnfield-Golasecca and the Indo-European Veneti of the Urnfield-Este are def. the main source for the high levels of R1b-U152 in the modern-day Po Valley pops.

Keeping in mind that in the broader Indo-European context the Umbrians were akin to the proto-Kelts and both also shared a common linguistic root within the Indo-European family;
 

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