R1b Df27 and L21 Celtic migrations 3,500-4,500ybp far west Europe

Fire Haired

Fire Haired

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Ethnic group
Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
Y-DNA haplogroup
R1b Df27(Spain)
mtDNA haplogroup
U5b2a2(Prussia)
R1b1a2a1a2a Df27 and R1b1a2a1a2c L21 are far western Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a2 P312/S116 subclades while R1b1a2a1a2b S28 would be the eastern one.(spread of R1b L11 Germanic Italo Celts in western Europe) Eupedia R1b Df27 map only counts deep subclades M153 and and SRY2627. But if u add the R1b S28 and L21 in western and central France it takes up about 20-30% of total Y DNA but R1b P312/S116 is about 60-70% or >75% according to Eupedia's map. So that leaves out about 40% to other R1b P312 or R1b P312* for western France and 10-20% for the rest of France and 5-20% in western Germany. It makes sense that R1b Df27 is the main R1b P312 subclade of western France and is around 10% all the way to central Germany. Also for R1b P312 is the British isles Highlands of Scotland, Ireland, Wales, and Cornwall(last areas in Europe with Celtic languages) R1b P312 according to Eupedia map is about >75%. But their main subclade R1b L21 is only 50-60% and >60% and R1b S28 is about 1-5% so that leaves out about 10-20% or so to other R1b P312 I would think mainly R1b Df27. Also R1b L21 is very spread out in western Europe not just the British isles.
Haplogroup-R1b-L21.gif


According to FTDNA R1b L21 age estimate is 5,500-4,000 years old. It probably migrated to the British isles with Celtic languages around 3,500-4,500ybp. I think that R1b Df27 expanded around the same time but I don't know of any age estimates on it. I don't completely trust the exact years or whatever of age estimates but I defintley do consider them a lot. Since R1b S28 obvisouly shows connections with the spread of Urnfield culture 3,300-3,000ybp starting in central Europe forming into Celtic Hallstat and migrating to Italy with Italic languages. Since R1b Df27 seems to have been in France and Iberia before R1b S28 and R1b L21 was deifntley in the British isles before Urnfield and Celtic Hallstat it makes sense R1b Df27 and R1b L21 migrations were around 3,500-4,500ybp.
 
Fire Haired said:
Since R1b Df27 seems to have been in France and Iberia before R1b S28 and R1b L21 was deifntley in the British isles before Urnfield and Celtic Hallstat it makes sense R1b Df27 and R1b L21 migrations were around 3,500-4,500ybp.
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If thats the case:
pre-Urnfield and pre-Hallstatt migrations; and i doubt that on many levels
than why do you even designate it to be Keltic?

And i disagree about P312* being mostly DF27 outside of Iberia and SW France;
They do test (many academic studies) for one of its major sub-clades [SRY2627] and that usually turns out to be just around 1%-2% or 0% so i doubt that DF27 in total would be than outrageously higher;
 
L-21 is really the youngest and most recent branch of P312. U152 is older and the oldest is basal P312 of course
 
adamo said:
L-21 is really the youngest and most recent branch of P312. U152 is older and the oldest is basal P312 of course
Click to expand...

What evidence do u have. FTDNA click here says it is predicted to be 5,500-4,000 years old while R1b U152 to be 3,500-5,000. Also Wikpedia said it is estimated to be 4,000 years old are u just assuming it is young and that U152 is old. The thing is that U152 spread to Italy with Urnfield culture and Italian languages about 3,200-3,000ybp also Urnfield culture decedent in central Europe Celtic Hallstat also shows huge connections with spreading U152 so that is pretty much U152 source. BUt how do u explain Celtic languages in Ireland and Iberia were U152 is only 1-5% while they have vast majority over 60% at least in the west coast and British isles(before German invasion) over 80% under P312. But they have subclades L21 and Df27. There were Celtic migrations Before Urnfield culture deep into west Europe. The idea Hallstat and Urnfield were the first Celts in very wrong. L21 looking at its age estimate and specific subclades of Ireland for example show that it would have migrated to the British isles before Urnfield culture even began and over 1,000 years before Hallstat. It would have come probably 3,500-4,500ybp and it makes the most sense it came with Celtic languages same with DFs7 in Iberia. So that is why I am saying there were huge Celtic migrations deep into west Europe 3,500-4,500ybp and they were very huge because look at the Britihs isles and western France 80% P312 look at Iberia around 60%.
 
Fire Haired said:
It (R1B L21)probably migrated to the British isles with Celtic languages around 3,500-4,500ybp.
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This is where you lose me. What are your sources for a Celtic migration to the British Isles around 2500 bc to 1500 bc.? Correct me if I'm wrong but this is the same period as Unetice Culture (from where you say Celtic is descended) and that was strictly a Central European culture at the time, not British.

2500 bc to 1600 bc was the era of the Bell Beakers in Britain!

I know you don't believe in r1b Bell Beakers, but I think your boat might be drifting in that direction. . .
 
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Tone said:
This is where you lose me. What are your sources for a Celtic migration to the British Isles around 2500 bc to 1500 bc.? Correct me if I'm wrong but this is the same period as Unetice Culture (from where you say Celtic is descended) and that was strictly a Central European culture at the time, not British.

2500 bc to 1600 bc was the era of the Bell Beakers in Britain!

I know you don't believe in r1b Bell Beakers, but I think your boat night be drifting in that direction. . .
Click to expand...
For so long people assumed Urnfield and Hallstat were the first Celts. Now we have a obvious y DNA genetic marker of them which is R1b S28 and is very rare in the British isles. Also Urnfield and Hallstat culture never were strong in the British isles. So were do their Celtic languages come from I bet R1b S28 brother R1b L21 has something to do with it. Its age estimates would point to a Celtic migration 3,500-4,500ybp. I think Celts quickly made very strong invasions deep into western Europe almost right when their language began. Look at England the area that Angeals and Saxons originated R1b S21 is 30-40% it is 20-30% in England and Lowlands of Scotland were Anglo Saxon language scots was spoken. Also I1 which is about 15% in the area they came from is also about 15% in England and lowlands of Scotland Vikings also had a part in it. When a people conquer a lot of times like with Indo Iranians in India they replace a lot of the native Y DNA. R1b P312 is about 80% in Ireland L21 around 60% this points in my opinon to invasion. Look at R1b P312 in western France around 70-80% over 60% in Iberia. That is why I say very strong invasions 3,500-4,500ybp by R1b Df27 and R1b L21 Celts. Overall there was a R1b1a2a1a L11 invasion of western Europe and I don't know that much about Bell bEaker did they spread mainly by trade of their Beakers or by conquest. Also at the earliest actulley L21 and Df27 spread 3,500-4,500ybp that is mainly after Bell bEaker culture and U152 would have spread only 3,500-2,700ybp so the spread of Bell bEaker is probably not the spread of R1b P312. and what about its northern brother U106 were did it come from.
 
Fire Haired said:
Also at the earliest actulley L21 and Df27 spread 3,500-4,500ybp that is mainly after Bell bEaker culture
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Actually, 2500 bc to 1500 bc is prime Bell Beaker time in Britain and on the continent.

Could the Beakers, conquering the entire Atlantic zone, and colliding with Corded Ware in Central Europe, have been the source of L11 instead of the Proto-Proto-Celtic, fair-haired, Thor-worshiping, horseman from the Steppe for which there is no evidence? Maybe. We do have Beaker R1B evidence.

The Bell Beaker "Empire" was freaken' huge and significant, the likes of which was not seen before, and again until Rome 3,000 years later. It lasted for about 1500 years. The genetic signature of the Beakers should be huge and significant as well.

I'm not saying I'm right, who really knows? Just consider it. :)
 
Nobody1 said:
If thats the case:
pre-Urnfield and pre-Hallstatt migrations; and i doubt that on many levels
than why do you even designate it to be Keltic?

And i disagree about P312* being mostly DF27 outside of Iberia and SW France;
They do test (many academic studies) for one of its major sub-clades [SRY2627] and that usually turns out to be just around 1%-2% or 0% so i doubt that DF27 in total would be than outrageously higher;
Click to expand...


http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-DF27/default.aspx?section=yresults

SRY2627 isn't all that big, within DF27. From a quick visual estimate, I would say that maybe 1/5 of DF27+ people are SRY2627+. So, conversely, a reasonable estimate of DF27's incidence (including outside of Iberia and SW France) could probably be attained by multiplying the SRY2627 results by 5 or so.
 
Tone said:
Actually, 2500 bc to 1500 bc is prime Bell Beaker time in Britain and on the continent.

Could the Beakers, conquering the entire Atlantic zone, and colliding with Corded Ware in Central Europe, have been the source of L11 instead of the Proto-Proto-Celtic, fair-haired, Thor-worshiping, horseman from the Steppe for which there is no evidence? Maybe. We do have Beaker R1B evidence.

The Bell Beaker "Empire" was freaken' huge and significant, the likes of which was not seen before, and again until Rome 3,000 years later. It lasted for about 1500 years. The genetic signature of the Beakers should be huge and significant as well.

I'm not saying I'm right, who really knows? Just consider it. :)
Click to expand...
I cant belive people have so much trust in Urnfield and Hallstat as the first Celts. How do u explain Celts in Ireland Urnfield never extended to Ireland and Hallstat had little influence on it. Like is said Hallstat and Urnfield in central Europe main R1b P312 subclade is R1b S28. In Ireland it Is L21 then Df27 which add up to about 80% of their Y DNA. This totally shows pre Urnfield pre 3,300ybp Celtic migrations deep deep into western Europe as far as Ireland. and yes I think Bell Beaker is the source but I think they were first conquered by Germanic Italo Celts who adopted a lot of their culture. U do know technically Celtic Hallstat decend from Bell Beaker culture same with early Germanic Nordic bronze age culture. At somepoint the Germanic and Italo Celts arrived with their Indo European religion which includes Thor. They had to spread by conquest like Indo Iranians and like almost all other Indo Europeans. Indo Iranians spread R1a1a1b2 Z93 Balto Slavics spread R1a1a1b1 Z283. Look at Britian the two Germanic languages English obviously then Scots in lowlands of Scotland., In those areas Germanic R1b S21 is 20-30% I1 which they could have spread 15%. Obviously when people conquer the way Germanic and Italo Celtic tribes did they spread Y DNA. I mean come on R1b1a2a1a L11 matches up perfectly with Germanic Italo Celtic migrations why does everyone want the complicated boring explanation and hate this idea so much. I do consider Bell Beaker but it is just to complicated in my opinion Germanic Italo Celtic source makes the most sense and they could have spread with Bell Beaker.
 
Fire Haired said:
R1b1a2a1a2a Df27 and R1b1a2a1a2c L21 are far western Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a2 P312/S116 subclades while R1b1a2a1a2b S28 would be the eastern one.(spread of R1b L11 Germanic Italo Celts in western Europe) Eupedia R1b Df27 map only counts deep subclades M153 and and SRY2627. But if u add the R1b S28 and L21 in western and central France it takes up about 20-30% of total Y DNA but R1b P312/S116 is about 60-70% or >75% according to Eupedia's map. So that leaves out about 40% to other R1b P312 or R1b P312* for western France and 10-20% for the rest of France and 5-20% in western Germany. It makes sense that R1b Df27 is the main R1b P312 subclade of western France and is around 10% all the way to central Germany. Also for R1b P312 is the British isles Highlands of Scotland, Ireland, Wales, and Cornwall(last areas in Europe with Celtic languages) R1b P312 according to Eupedia map is about >75%. But their main subclade R1b L21 is only 50-60% and >60% and R1b S28 is about 1-5% so that leaves out about 10-20% or so to other R1b P312 I would think mainly R1b Df27. Also R1b L21 is very spread out in western Europe not just the British isles.
Haplogroup-R1b-L21.gif


According to FTDNA R1b L21 age estimate is 5,500-4,000 years old. It probably migrated to the British isles with Celtic languages around 3,500-4,500ybp. I think that R1b Df27 expanded around the same time but I don't know of any age estimates on it. I don't completely trust the exact years or whatever of age estimates but I defintley do consider them a lot. Since R1b S28 obvisouly shows connections with the spread of Urnfield culture 3,300-3,000ybp starting in central Europe forming into Celtic Hallstat and migrating to Italy with Italic languages. Since R1b Df27 seems to have been in France and Iberia before R1b S28 and R1b L21 was deifntley in the British isles before Urnfield and Celtic Hallstat it makes sense R1b Df27 and R1b L21 migrations were around 3,500-4,500ybp.
Click to expand...

You know Firehead, the Irish have a oral Genesis of the Milesians coming into Spain and Ireland. Perhaps if you are correct the old Irish legends might be up to something. The British Islesmen could be desended from the La-Tene; although the Gaulish territory has an uncanny resemblance to the La Tene Territory, or it the Celtic British Islesmen could be the British Bronze Age People.


The only thing I can figure is to dna test the Ancient bones of the British Isles to know for sure when the Gascon and Atlanic R1b People first settled in the Isles
 
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