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View Full Version : New distribution map of Y-haplogroup E-M81



Maciamo
24-09-13, 15:16
A lot of people had been asking for it. Here it is. I have also updated the whole page about haplogroup E1b1b (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml) in the last 3 days.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-M81.gif (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#M81)

Compare it with the map of autosomal African admixture. The resemblance is striking, especially in Iberia and Italy.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/African-admixture.gif


UPDATE :

I believe that E-M81 reached Iberia sometime between 15,000 and 5,000 BCE. Its heavy concentration in western Iberia and its fading towards France and Britain are probable signs that E-M81 spread eastward during the Beaker period (along with other E subclades, G2a, I2a and possibly J1 and J2). R1b would have come in the opposite direction from Germany during the Late Beaker period and first settled in eastern Iberia, notably with the El Argar culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Argar), then progressively move westward during the Bronze Age.

PaschalisB
24-09-13, 16:36
Great map, maybe a map of E-V13 would be useful as well.

adamo
24-09-13, 16:56
I believe there is already a map of E-V13 on this website : )

Maciamo
24-09-13, 17:52
I believe there is already a map of E-V13 on this website : )

No, it's all E1b1b. Take out M81 and you get mostly E-V13 in Europe.

Nobody1
24-09-13, 18:43
That dot in North Spain, is that 30-40 or 40-50?
And whats the study or story behind that;

adamo
24-09-13, 20:02
So this comes as no surprise, the berberid E-M81 that has frequency peaks in Moroccan and Tunisian (also most Algerian E) Berber populations has a European peak on the Iberian peninsula; in southern Portugal and across parts of Spain, to be more precise. There is also a slightly higher frequency in certain parts of Sicily than in the rest of Europe, albeit, not nearly as high as Portugal and Spain's frequencies. So, this same E-M81 marker, found identically in certain west north-African and west Mediterranean populations, reaches frequency peaks of 85% of Morrocan males and Similarly high frequencies in Tunisians (60-75%) and very high % in Algeria as well (45-50% I believe). In Europe, Spain and Portugal have about 15% E-M81 on a national level; a small but present element.

Yaan
24-09-13, 20:38
Map shows parts of Bulgaria as being in the 5%-10% zone. Change this. Out of 808 tasted Bulgarians only 1 is E-M81, out of the other studies none,as far as I know, lets be positive about it still 1% is an ultimate maximum. Why do u try to portrait us in fake light?? E-M81 in Bulgaria is between 0.5%-1%!End of story!Thanks :)
Same goes for Serbia and Macedonia, Western Europeans trying to lie about us even in genetics. Please do not do this!!!!

Maciamo
24-09-13, 22:52
That dot in North Spain, is that 30-40 or 40-50?
And whats the study or story behind that;

Pasiegos from Cantabria.

Maciamo
24-09-13, 22:53
Map shows parts of Bulgaria as being in the 5%-10% zone. Change this. Out of 808 tasted Bulgarians only 1 is E-M81, out of the other studies none,as far as I know, lets be positive about it still 1% is an ultimate maximum. Why do u try to portrait us in fake light?? E-M81 in Bulgaria is between 0.5%-1%!End of story!Thanks :)
Same goes for Serbia and Macedonia, Western Europeans trying to lie about us even in genetics. Please do not do this!!!!

Where did you see that ? Bulgaria is in the 0% zone.

Serbia has just 1% of M81. No data on Macedonia though.

Fire Haired
24-09-13, 23:00
The African admixture I defintley connected with E1b1b1b1a M81. I think that the E1b M81 in Italy and Greece came during Greco Roman age. A E1b1b V13 map would be good since it defintley mainly spread in Europe with farming about 9,000-6,000ybp and is in 7,000ybp farmer in north Spain. Do u think u could make maps of the Eurasia and Africa or is there not enough data. A Germanic Italo Celtic? R1b1a2a1a L11 map would be cool to see or Corded ware aka Balto Slavic R1a1a1b1 Z283. I guess the branch that went to Scandnavia today their language is extinct and has been for almost 4,000 years so it technically is nota a Balto Slavic lineage but it is from Corded ware culture. Also a Indo Iranian R1a1a1b2 Z93 or combined Indo European branch of R1a which would be all under R1a1a1 M417 or maybe R1a1a1b S224.

Fire Haired
24-09-13, 23:07
I wonder if mtDNA L and U6 are distributed in a similar way. I think the name African for a aust dna group is not good. Because what Africans are u talking about sub sahran Africans or north Africans two extremely different people. North Africans are in the Caucasian family with mid easterns and Europeans while sub sahran African I guess form their own family but I don't know for sure some are very unrelated to each other. It got so annoying when they were showing that with the mtDNA they have ancient Minoens were most related to Europeans and there were theory's before that they were from north Africa. And the study said the evidence was that they had no major African mtDNA L. It seems they ignore the huge difference between north Africans and sub sharan the reason why l will be maybe around 10-20% in north Africans is inter marriage with sub sahran Africans, Same reason they have Y DNA E. I don't understand so E1b1b1 M243 is the father of all North African and Eurasian E. Then E1b1b1a V68 is the father is all Eurasian E1b1b and I guess according to ur Eupedia's tree also in Egypt which would have been were Eurasian E1b1b came from. It seems E1b1b would have expanded in north Africa not 50,000ybp or whatever when mtDNA U6 came but more like 20,000-30,000ybp at the very most. Since E it self is from sub shara Africa it did not come with Caucasian migrations out of the mid east 50,000-40,000ybp. Were is the original Caucasian y DNA of north Africans is it Y DNA F or C is there any left.

Yaan
25-09-13, 08:32
Where did you see that ? Bulgaria is in the 0% zone.

Serbia has just 1% of M81. No data on Macedonia though.
Well parts of Bulgaria are in the 1%-5% zone, which is simply not like this coz whole of Bulgaria should be in the 0%-1% zone,same goes for Serbia and Macedonia. Western Europeans and R1b supremacists try to make us what we are not, lets not do this here. Also I will be waiting for the E-V13 map,it would be so cool to see the Near East in the 2% zone and North Africa in the 0% zone, all R1b lies would be over then :)

Ike
25-09-13, 11:15
I don't see the problem. From 1-5 % means it could be 1 percent.
He should also not care for state borders, because these maps don't follow them. It's best to leave it to software.

Maciamo
25-09-13, 12:11
Well parts of Bulgaria are in the 1%-5% zone, which is simply not like this coz whole of Bulgaria should be in the 0%-1% zone,same goes for Serbia and Macedonia. Western Europeans and R1b supremacists try to make us what we are not, lets not do this here. Also I will be waiting for the E-V13 map,it would be so cool to see the Near East in the 2% zone and North Africa in the 0% zone, all R1b lies would be over then :)

If you want to know why the Hazkovo province is in the 1-5% zone, check the study on Bulgaria by Karachanak et al. (the one you sent me). There is 2.4% of E-M81.

Btw, do you realise that E-M81 is highest in Europe in R1b countries (France, Spain and Portugal) ?

Yaan
25-09-13, 12:24
If you want to know why the Hazkovo province is in the 1-5% zone, check the study on Bulgaria by Karachanak et al. (the one you sent me). There is 2.4% of E-M81.

Btw, do you realise that E-M81 is highest in Europe in R1b countries (France, Spain and Portugal) ?
There are only 41 people tasted in Haskovo provicne( and by Haskovo province they do not mean the actual Haskovo province but Haskovo province, Kardzhali provicne and Stara Zagora province). It is not important when u look at the whole study it is 1 out of 808 people. In all other studies there is no M81. I hope u do not have agenda against South Slavs, u also posted more for Serbs and Macedonians, but not for Croats!!!!!!!!!!!
No surprise at all that Spain,France and Portugal have some of it :) Just like it is no surprise we have some T and J1 :smile:

Sile
25-09-13, 12:25
The African admixture I defintley connected with E1b1b1b1a M81. I think that the E1b M81 in Italy and Greece came during Greco Roman age. A E1b1b V13 map would be good since it defintley mainly spread in Europe with farming about 9,000-6,000ybp and is in 7,000ybp farmer in north Spain. Do u think u could make maps of the Eurasia and Africa or is there not enough data. A Germanic Italo Celtic? R1b1a2a1a L11 map would be cool to see or Corded ware aka Balto Slavic R1a1a1b1 Z283. I guess the branch that went to Scandnavia today their language is extinct and has been for almost 4,000 years so it technically is nota a Balto Slavic lineage but it is from Corded ware culture. Also a Indo Iranian R1a1a1b2 Z93 or combined Indo European branch of R1a which would be all under R1a1a1 M417 or maybe R1a1a1b S224.

After the Numidians and Mauritanians swapped sides in the Rome .v. Hannibal wars, these north african people must have been used by the Romans against NE Iberia and the conquest of Gaul.

These people where pre-Berber people ..........E-M81 !?

Goga
25-09-13, 16:33
Thank you for these maps!

Beavrrit
30-01-14, 22:46
How did the Africans or Berbers haplogroup E-M81 got to Northern Europe, Finland and the Baltic? In the Neolithic or when, before with the Last Glacial Iberian Refugees expansion to the North? The Beaker folk? WHO were they? The Roman legions?How is it that it is determined or discarded the age of this Y-haplogroup and that the haplogroup is "too young" to have arrived in Europe before the Arab-Muslim Empire spread it?

Ike
30-01-14, 23:14
What do you mean in Northern Europe? There is almost none in there.

james stock
31-01-14, 00:05
I'm sorry, but your time frame does not correspond with the published scientific papers which discuss african admixture. African admixture in Southern Europe is dated 29 generations to 400AD, and assuming E-M81 arrived 15,000 years ago, it would have nothing to do with autosomal african admixture. 15,000 years ago is far to distant admixture to contribute any significant DNA in modern humans, aside from Y-DNA, which does not recombine.

If E-M81 populations did contribute to the majority of the African component of autosomal European DNA then it occurred about 1500 years ago or 200-600AD.

Here are the findings of Moorjani et al.


The finding of African ancestry in Southern Europe dating to ~55 generations ago, or ~1,600 years ago assuming 29 years per generation, needs to be placed in historical context. The historical record documents multiple interactions of African and European populations over this period. One potential opportunity for African gene flow was during the period of Roman occupation of North Africa that lasted until the early 5th century AD, and indeed tomb inscriptions and literary references suggest that trade relations continued even after that time. North Africa was also a supplier of goods and products such as wine and olive oil to Italy, Spain and Gaul from 200–600 AD, and Morocco was a major manufacturer of the processed fish sauce condiment, garum, which was imported by Romans. In addition, there was slave trading across the western Sahara during Roman times. Another potential source of some of the African ancestry, especially in Spain and Portugal, is the invasion of Iberia by Moorish armies after 711 AD. If the Moors already had some African ancestry when they arrived in Southern Europe, and then admixed with Iberians, we would expect the admixture date to be older than the date of the invasion, as we observe.

martiko
31-01-14, 00:54
That dot in North Spain, is that 30-40 or 40-50?
And whats the study or story behind that;

the troops of the ancient garrisons of the Roman soldiers which kept the door of Pyrenees which forced later wisigoths and basques.

Nobody1
31-01-14, 04:09
the troops of the ancient garrisons of the Roman soldiers which kept the door of Pyrenees which forced later wisigoths and basques.

As Maciamo already answered me (post#8 / 24-09-13) the dot with the high E-M81 are the Pasiegos from Cantabria;

Drac II
31-01-14, 15:51
I'm sorry, but your time frame does not correspond with the published scientific papers which discuss african admixture. African admixture in Southern Europe is dated 29 generations to 400AD, and assuming E-M81 arrived 15,000 years ago, it would have nothing to do with autosomal african admixture. 15,000 years ago is far to distant admixture to contribute any significant DNA in modern humans, aside from Y-DNA, which does not recombine.

If E-M81 populations did contribute to the majority of the African component of autosomal European DNA then it occurred about 1500 years ago or 200-600AD.

Here are the findings of Moorjani et al.

It's interesting how Moorjani et al's own calculations contradict some of their own claims. Even assuming that their calculations and the value they assigned for a "generation" (which is usually accepted as 30 or 35 years, not 29) are correct, that "African" ancestry in Europe still predates the existence of Islam itself, let alone any Islamic "invasions". Their dating, however, does indeed coincide with the late Roman period, another of their claims regarding how this ancestry entered Europe.

Beavrrit
31-01-14, 21:14
Yes, so HOW or/and WHEN did the "almost none" haplogroups from Africa got to the N.E. of Europe? Maybe "the North" of Europe (?) does not count.

Beavrrit
31-01-14, 21:25
And if males Y-lines did enter in Europe all across, which female Mt-haplogroups did accompany it with, L or M or U or those in Iberia already? My mother matrilineal ancestry says V hg was originally coming to the north from Iberian Mesolithics, but E-M81 is originally from Egypt or Libya?! Did Canary islanders did the Thor Heyerdal Polynesian thing to the north?

Wilhelm
31-01-14, 22:02
Maciamo, did you leave out this studies (just in case you didn't) :

For Gascony :

Gascony n=0/24 0.0% Adams et al.
Béarn, Gascony n=1/56 1.78% Martínez-Cruz et al. 2012,
Bigorre, Gacony n=1/44 2.72% Martínez-Cruz et al. 2012,

Croatia :
Croats n = 1/89 1.1% Battaglia et al. 2008 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947100/)

Northern Italy :
North-Italians n=1/67 1.5% Cruciani 2004.
Lombard n=1/18 5.6% Scozzari 2001.
Venetian n=20 0.0% Scozzari 2001.
Ligurian n=17 0.0% Scozzari 2001.

Angela
31-01-14, 22:54
It's interesting how Moorjani et al's own calculations contradict some of their own claims. Even assuming that their calculations and the value they assigned for a "generation" (which is usually accepted as 30 or 35 years, not 29) are correct, that "African" ancestry in Europe still predates the existence of Islam itself, let alone any Islamic "invasions". Their dating, however, does indeed coincide with the late Roman period, another of their claims regarding how this ancestry entered Europe.

I would be wary of giving very much credence to any of the Moorjani et al conclusions. All of the figures for West African admixture are inflated. The Reich lab which produced it corrected the assumptions upon which their calculations were based in their subsequent papers, including, of course, Lipson et al. I think I already posted this somewhere. If you want to see the detail of the problems with Moorjani et al just search on Dienekes site. He pointed them out as soon as the paper came out, and the subsequent Reich Lab papers took exactly the same approach as he had advocated in his blog.

Also, in some cases, although not in all, the program used to date the admixture seems to have problems differentiating between the general time of the most recent admixture and the cumulative effect of all the prior admixture. In other words, let's assume that in a certain area, there has been admixture for two thousand years. The program might, depending on the population history of the particular area, pick up the last date of admixture as the only one which occurred.

An example of how the program might give erroneous conclusions is in the case of the Egyptians. If I remember correctly, the admixture with SSA was held to have occurred in the late classical era. That defies logic, in my opinion. While I'm sure that the Arab slave trade of the slightly later Arab/Muslim expansion greatly impacted Egypt, it seems pretty obvious to me from archaeology and the art of prior periods that there was SSA admixture before then.

martiko
01-02-14, 01:08
As Maciamo already answered me (post#8 / 24-09-13) the dot with the high E-M81 are the Pasiegos from Cantabria;


yes! but it is not the motive of their presence, and it is that I give information to you because your question seemed. But it is not theory accept by all but the most likely historically.

Drac II
01-02-14, 15:41
I would be wary of giving very much credence to any of the Moorjani et al conclusions. All of the figures for West African admixture are inflated. The Reich lab which produced it corrected the assumptions upon which their calculations were based in their subsequent papers, including, of course, Lipson et al. I think I already posted this somewhere. If you want to see the detail of the problems with Moorjani et al just search on Dienekes site. He pointed them out as soon as the paper came out, and the subsequent Reich Lab papers took exactly the same approach as he had advocated in his blog.

Also, in some cases, although not in all, the program used to date the admixture seems to have problems differentiating between the general time of the most recent admixture and the cumulative effect of all the prior admixture. In other words, let's assume that in a certain area, there has been admixture for two thousand years. The program might, depending on the population history of the particular area, pick up the last date of admixture as the only one which occurred.

An example of how the program might give erroneous conclusions is in the case of the Egyptians. If I remember correctly, the admixture with SSA was held to have occurred in the late classical era. That defies logic, in my opinion. While I'm sure that the Arab slave trade of the slightly later Arab/Muslim expansion greatly impacted Egypt, it seems pretty obvious to me from archaeology and the art of prior periods that there was SSA admixture before then.

I also wonder if they in fact did not also include some North African DNA as "sub-Saharan", possibly to "inflate" things a bit for southern Europe. Besides whatever problems their study may have, it is clear that they had a very transparent agenda to make it look as if northern Europe does not have sub-Saharan input. Contrary to their claims that other studies have not found it among northern Europeans, there's actually several studies that have, and I'm pretty sure that they were aware of it but claimed the contrary nonetheless.

martiko
02-02-14, 02:15
I also wonder if they in fact did not also include some North African DNA as "sub-Saharan", possibly to "inflate" things a bit for southern Europe. Besides whatever problems their study may have, it is clear that they had a very transparent agenda to make it look as if northern Europe does not have sub-Saharan input. Contrary to their claims that other studies have not found it among northern Europeans, there's actually several studies that have, and I'm pretty sure that they were aware of it but claimed the contrary nonetheless.

http://thegeneticatlas.com/World_Y-DNA.htm
62196220

http://thegeneticatlas.com/E1b_Y-DNA.htm


you must be able to explain me why there is as much in Italy as in Spain E1b1b1 on these cards.
6221

Of other one by the period of the reconquista by Navarre was a bloody period from which policy was the destroying of the Muslim believers; rape and murder was the answer of violence to violence and it is not justice to reproach Spanishes for what was fact of of the vasco-navarre, they also left a lot M167 in regions purified by Spain, it shows that writings are far from having gone too far this period (according to genetics the reconquista was gnocidaire). The Andalusia is the most convincing example on masculine descendants compared with the female descendants.

http://thegeneticatlas.com/population.htm


(http://thegeneticatlas.com/population.htm)

Sile
02-02-14, 05:43
@martiko

I think the data you placed on Page 30 is too "up to date", its only 5 years old, maybe we need to go back 20 years for more accuracy!

martiko
02-02-14, 12:57
given data are and I believe what I see, and you see you only what you want to believe
I point out to you that in these data there is polarity if you read them attentively.

Beavrrit
04-02-14, 23:22
I spoke with a local Basque, neighbors to the Pasiegos, and he explained to me what they know from those 20-40% dot people. The singular and heavy presence of Pasiegos in the northern mountains of Iberia, and their spread among Cantabrians and some Basque territory, is attested since the XII century or earlier. Their origin seem to be owed to Royal grants on their valleys (and those of other peasant local folks) to have free range on all the communal pastures of others, and to be free of any taxation for it from the nearby nobility or Abbots, what made them hated and subject to all sort of mistrust from sedentary farmers, and to isolate themselves to shield their rights and cast abuses off. They couldn't tell me or didn't know, where the Pasiegos came from before that, or the reasons for their grants of such privileges. No later Gypsies or others foreigners were ever known to have such freedoms or territory rights, given among and above Christians, except those with similar royal grants around those centuries, given to the so called "Francos" to settle along the Compostela road valleys, fords or towns. But those were known from where they arrived, with their foreign family names and own languages, been called to do so all the way from Aquitaine, Champagne and Lower Saxony. Did Kings trade settlers with the Emperors of Central Europe, the Poles or Baltic Lithuanians in those "population booming" days before The Plague? Could Iberian families have ended up too in the other far away Christian new marches of Prussia, called along the French by the Knights of those places to settle "new territory"? How much medieval colonization was done over as vast distances as the Crusaders did?

Beavrrit
04-02-14, 23:26
English settlers in Germany and Hungary too!

martiko
05-02-14, 23:18
I spoke with a local Basque, neighbors to the Pasiegos, and he explained to me what they know from those 20-40% dot people. The singular and heavy presence of Pasiegos in the northern mountains of Iberia, and their spread among Cantabrians and some Basque territory, is attested since the XII century or earlier. Their origin seem to be owed to Royal grants on their valleys (and those of other peasant local folks) to have free range on all the communal pastures of others, and to be free of any taxation for it from the nearby nobility or Abbots, what made them hated and subject to all sort of mistrust from sedentary farmers, and to isolate themselves to shield their rights and cast abuses off. They couldn't tell me or didn't know, where the Pasiegos came from before that, or the reasons for their grants of such privileges. No later Gypsies or others foreigners were ever known to have such freedoms or territory rights, given among and above Christians, except those with similar royal grants around those centuries, given to the so called "Francos" to settle along the Compostela road valleys, fords or towns. But those were known from where they arrived, with their foreign family names and own languages, been called to do so all the way from Aquitaine, Champagne and Lower Saxony. Did Kings trade settlers with the Emperors of Central Europe, the Poles or Baltic Lithuanians in those "population booming" days before The Plague? Could Iberian families have ended up too in the other far away Christian new marches of Prussia, called along the French by the Knights of those places to settle "new territory"? How much medieval colonization was done over as vast distances as the Crusaders did?
the pasiegos which are a very located population, seem to be the descendants of ancient Roman troops or Carthaginian, parked strategically on the barrier of the Pyrenees, they are pushed back by the plagues of wisigoths then vasgondes later. They distinguish themselves only by them Y DNA from other Spanishes, but anything distinctive in Mt DNA.

Beavrrit
07-02-14, 20:48
the pasiegos which are a very located population, seem to be the descendants of ancient Roman troops or Carthaginian, parked strategically on the barrier of the Pyrenees, they are pushed back by the plagues of wisigoths then vasgondes later. They distinguish themselves only by them Y DNA from other Spanishes, but anything distinctive in Mt DNA.That is interesting. There is sources for that? But data seems not right. The Pasiegos are not really anywhere near the Pyrenees but in deep valleys within the Cantabrian coast mountains. The closest to the Pyrenees mountain passes (Pass-egos?) is 200 km away from the Pasiegos, either by the Romans road that connected the Asturica Legio main garrison city to the one in Pompaelo (modern Pamplona), from nearby Uxama or the one (longer) by the coast from nearby Flaviobriga. And if they were Roman North Africans stationed in the Pyrenees, why would they be pushed by the Basques, if these were always allied to the Romans who built their first urban market centers? They would have been already "locals" since Hannibal days. And if pushed by the hostile Visigoths, how comes these seem to have "merged" with the Pasiegos? The haplo R1a, probably carried by the Goths all the way from East Prussia, is among the Pasiegos the highest in all the Iberian peninsula

Wilhelm
07-02-14, 20:54
That is interesting. There is sources for that? But data seems not right. The Pasiegos are not really anywhere near the Pyrenees but in deep valleys within the Cantabrian coast mountains. The closest to the Pyrenees mountain passes (Pass-egos?) is 200 km away from the Pasiegos, either by the Romans road that connected the Asturica Legio main garrison city to the one in Pompaelo (modern Pamplona), from nearby Uxama or the one (longer) by the coast from nearby Flaviobriga. And if they were Roman North Africans stationed in the Pyrenees, why would they be pushed by the Basques, if these were always allied to the Romans who built their first urban market centers? They would have been already "locals" since Hannibal days. And if pushed by the hostile Visigoths, how comes these seem to have "merged" with the Pasiegos? The haplo R1a, probably carried by the Goths all the way from East Prussia, is among the Pasiegos the highest in all the Iberian peninsula
All these theories are crap, it's more probable that the E-M81 ended up there in pre-historic times, like neolithic .

Beavrrit
07-02-14, 21:12
OR... was hg E-M81 already brought by the Visigoths migration train along hg R1a from somewhere else? The Baltic or Black sea? From their Vandals or Ostrogoth allies in the Mediterranean? There were truly some of these barbarians who went back to Scandinavia with new "brothers in arms" as tribe members?

Beavrrit
07-02-14, 22:19
All these theories are crap, it's more probable that the E-M81 ended up there in pre-historic times, like neolithic .I also agree, the hg 81 seems too widespread, although in thin thread declining minority, to have appeared by queer chance from a few, or many, military outposts in a very conspicuous row of them, where the % must have been higher to get the surviving results. And if so.... HOW so much less E-M81 % presence, along the same Roman or Carthaginian or Arab much more important military stations in the opposite coast, the Mediterranean coastline roads or ports, where there was an accounted record in all Classic sources of these Numidians legions, or later Moorish cavalries, easier to exchange and to transport but much harder to avoid? The % in the European western Mediterranean should be much higher than in the Atlantic mountain valleys, even if just by Mediterranean seaports demographic surplus "overboard accidents", century after century, and millennia/s.

Sile
07-02-14, 22:44
I also agree, the hg 81 seems too widespread, although in thin thread declining minority, to have appeared by queer chance from a few, or many, military outposts in a very conspicuous row of them, where the % must have been higher to get the surviving results. And if so.... HOW so much less E-M81 % presence, along the same Roman or Carthaginian or Arab much more important military stations in the opposite coast, the Mediterranean coastline roads or ports, where there was an accounted record in all Classic sources of these Numidians legions, or later Moorish cavalries, easier to exchange and to transport but much harder to avoid? The % in the European western Mediterranean should be much higher than in the Atlantic mountain valleys, even if just by Mediterranean seaports demographic surplus "overboard accidents", century after century, and millennia/s.

we can tell if numidian E is iberian E as numidian where brought to southern italy in great numbers after the demise of the Carthaginians ........if this E in the same as iberian E, then Iberian E is north-african.

The proposed ( by you ) E brought by vandals/visi/ostrogoths ( picked up along the way would be in majority E-v13

martiko
08-02-14, 02:26
That is interesting. There is sources for that? But data seems not right. The Pasiegos are not really anywhere near the Pyrenees but in deep valleys within the Cantabrian coast mountains. The closest to the Pyrenees mountain passes (Pass-egos?) is 200 km away from the Pasiegos, either by the Romans road that connected the Asturica Legio main garrison city to the one in Pompaelo (modern Pamplona), from nearby Uxama or the one (longer) by the coast from nearby Flaviobriga. And if they were Roman North Africans stationed in the Pyrenees, why would they be pushed by the Basques, if these were always allied to the Romans who built their first urban market centers? They would have been already "locals" since Hannibal days. And if pushed by the hostile Visigoths, how comes these seem to have "merged" with the Pasiegos? The haplo R1a, probably carried by the Goths all the way from East Prussia, is among the Pasiegos the highest in all the Iberian peninsula

why ask questions you since according to your text you already know??

Beavrrit
08-02-14, 21:51
why ask questions you since according to your text you already know??
I -as many- still can't really know it, thus why asking aloud in an open forum if somebody knows better theory/ies that may fall more accurate with the missing pieces of the Puzzle, and not in disarray with what known historically, pan-sifting through them as near and far back as historical recordings and archaeology allows possible to the mysterious Passiegos origins and their y-dna kin folk across Europe, as my grandparents seem to have been. But since when in the Baltic, and how did they got there? And I really wish and hope that some do not keep trying to see if the kindergarten history-legends omelette, or whatever is they still have vague memories, sticks at last after many tries to the History wall linking all the E-M81 in Western Europe, etc to the Romans "missing" IX Legion, jack of all jokers in the card deck of historical genetics, or to the garrison Moors of Granada or earlier Cordova had (in Auvergne or Brandenburg? but sure it works for Poitiers), unless somebody comes up with another one of these military campfire tales... and maybe link it all to one "about the famous elephants drivers of Carthago gone missing" that decided to quit on Hannibal, and took a trek away from Italy to tour around Europe.

Beavrrit
08-02-14, 22:10
we can tell if numidian E is iberian E as numidian where brought to southern italy in great numbers after the demise of the Carthaginians ........if this E in the same as iberian E, then Iberian E is north-african.

The proposed ( by you ) E brought by vandals/visi/ostrogoths ( picked up along the way would be in majority E-v13
Not proposed, but asked -by me (note the "?")- if known about it or its possibility, given the mention by Martiko of those barbarians as "hostile to Passiegos" being the cause to their existence there. And taking into account who these really were and came from along with (according to UK expert Peter Heather reviews of all of their federations ethno-genesis).
As for to, linking Numidians in the Italian peninsula to those in the Iberian one, seems a great idea for something else, but as proof of coming from North Africa....why? Unless you identify the historical Numidians in southern Italy with those "Numidians from the Balkans". But the thread is not about those, or the other E1b1b spread in Europe, but just those possibly linked with the spread of E-M81. Capisci? ;)

Biloo
09-02-14, 01:07
E-M81 is thought to be 5000 years old (Cruciani et al. 2004, Arredi et al. 2004). It has probably started to be widespread in Northwest Africa 3500 to 4000 years ago so its presence in Europe is even more recent.

Beavrrit
10-02-14, 22:04
E-M81 is thought to be 5000 years old (Cruciani et al. 2004, Arredi et al. 2004). It has probably started to be widespread in Northwest Africa 3500 to 4000 years ago so its presence in Europe is even more recent.
"thought" and "probable" are very wobbly measures to end deducting as "is even" in that mathematic cloud (5000-3500=1500 BP???) and even harder to translate it through that howitzer over the ground hard evidence of the archaeological record dig of cultures or bones "still not walking that talk" (within the same chrono-slo-mo). So, shall we return to known evidence instead of faux-forensics in the lack of real dead bodies telling us the time when+where they fell on it? I am all Listening, but some times such pontifical "estimated age or movement time of haplogroups", or their presence in a geographic historical context, sounds from some lab experts as monday quarterbacking just from knowing the score or teams final pile of laundry, and never actually seen the game or corroborate with the field observers.

martiko
12-02-14, 01:03
there were normal compsition of the Roman troops led from Carthage who occupied the peninsula fortified position on uncontrolled regions empire. The troops were varied in composition depending on the area that are occupied and as Carthage had taken dominion over the Iberian Peninsula in Rome for a long time.

MOESAN
14-02-14, 17:02
E-M81 is thought to be 5000 years old (Cruciani et al. 2004, Arredi et al. 2004). It has probably started to be widespread in Northwest Africa 3500 to 4000 years ago so its presence in Europe is even more recent.

I have always had some doubts about the accuracy of these age calculations about genes - so, the first Y-E-M81 in North-Africa came only by the 2000/1500 BC ??? and reached a 80% of distributions among Marocco berber males??? glup! let's take a fresh drink and some rest too...
I have not the knowledge to discuss these results but I must say they seem nonsense to me (but I can mistake?)
the distribution as a whole in Europe is very western after being very southwestern and I 'm tempted to think this Y-HG is older than East Neolithic i it does not seem to me linked to any historical big move - I do not say there had not been more recent moves of less importannce, drown among more numerous HG's (the less neglictible could have been the moves implied by the megalithic and subsequent Atlantic Bronze, still at very very low rates -

Beavrrit
21-02-14, 22:03
there were normal compsition of the Roman troops led from Carthage who occupied the peninsula fortified position on uncontrolled regions empire. The troops were varied in composition depending on the area that are occupied and as Carthage had taken dominion over the Iberian Peninsula in Rome for a long time.
Well, let's see why and for how long that runs.
This can't be part of the blind Africanism running savage elsewhere, but a "lite-version" of it trying to conscript all African traces in Europe into some pseudo-military "invader" intruder set. Is that it? And I hope is not either from the Nordicist rehash-supremacy kitchens.
So let's start with the Iberians peninsula conundrum, and the supposedly Legionnaire-theories. Which will it may work "as well" as those who LUMPED all "Asian" (Middle-easterners' most common) haplogroups present in the modern population of the peninsula, to their only brand of "Semites"... What was that, up to one THIRD of the modern inhabitants of Spain (perhaps Portugal) are "Jews" or descendants of them? Lost tribes, renegade Hebrews or what not?
But on the Military narrower view, it could explain those in "occupied" parts of Iberia or of Europe where the Romans or Carthaginians held territory, that must have cantoned larger numbers of soldiers or slaves just from Africa _including or composed mostly of those with E-M81.
But how that SPQR colonii-manumitio for their slaves or veterans discharge... works to explain the presence of those genetically alike beyond their maximum reach in Europe??? The Jews again, the Vatican, and their missionary missions sent to spread the news to the pagans among Slavs, Scandinavians, Balts or Finns, etc but integrated just.... with those from the African or -concentrated formula of E1b1b1- Iberian clergy? They must have been very busy proselytizing.Let's review the hard evidence (or until the bones "speak" from their time-period qualified graves) of the Classical sources, however incomplete they may be. The first reports of Africans within the Iberian peninsula comes from those -second hand- that witnessed them along the Ancient Greeks, Thyrrhenians, Lybians or Lydians and even Egyptians -not always middlemen involved- visiting and trading in the Tartessian Atlantic ports beyond the Mediterranean. Now, we do not have a way to know, if they just touched and go did their business and never stayed or left issue, however there must have been as true as it always have been yesterday as today, many "Polynesian style" welcoming Iberian women that were... expecting more, much more, many times from those happy sailors, and for many generations. We know that the Phoenician and later the Libyo-phoenicians did stay longer, and some forever thanks to their elaborate burials way before they built their own citadels, however not as much is left of their as sophisticated living rich refinements in the archaeological findings so far, as it is known from others sources contemporary to them. So, considering the proximity and for sure, a higher percentage presence of North-Africans among those from more distant ports through such busy navigated waters as those of the Tartessians and their neighbors, the input in the local demographic must have only snowballed over time and generations, as much if not higher as that of the so called "Orientals" genetic evidence left in the modern record, on that southern half of the Iberian peninsula before the arrival of others from the Urnfields-Hallsttat cultural spheres.
Next we hear of African-Iberian possible affairs in the Ancient Classical records, may be indirectly taken when they speak of Iberian mercenaries involved in the Greeks wars in Sicily. If they went, or were sent for, that far...would they have carried with as much ease but inversely as them, some North-Africans to be employed so in the Greek colonies in the coasts of Iberia or Gaul? But little is seen of that in the Mediterranean coasts where Greeks were masters of ceremonies for centuries.
Short after that, we read that the Phoenicians -locally made big in North Africa- started to take under Hannibal's father a serious interest in spreading their might and safety of colonies in the Iberian coasts, to which his sons took a serious effort before jumping themselves on the throat of Rome within the Italian peninsula. But Hannibal and his brothers or fellow generals never had time to go and do their "invader conquests in Spain", so they never took their North-African elephants and cavalry allies, much far inland than to "flex muscle and lean over" smaller neighbor tribes, with the purpose to leave a breathing space treaties with which to cover their backs and to extort as many troops FROM the Iberians as they did from the North-Africans before their road to Rome. The most far north they did campaigns was near modern Salamanca and Madrid, but on the Central plains! And it is known from contemporary and latter records that the local Celtiberians or Lusitanians didn't become "African occupied"....
So, however garrisoned or on campaign, the Carthaginians endeavours never took them anywhere near over the areas were the presence of the E-M81 is attributed to their African troops. Hannibal's brothers left in charge of their peninsula affairs had exactly this problem, lack of any kind of troops to confront the arrival of new Roman armies to contest the "control of Iberia" and even the very existence of the Carthaginian cities...
After this dramatic period, however confusing war times are, the Classical record becomes much better kept in line of events and provided with all sorts of details. The Romans on taking over the "control of Iberia" from the Carthaginians didn't got it all solved and done, not even the romantic view of North-African and Carthaginian troops at their northern mythical forts just changing flags and cruising in Latin, garbed in the latest Italian fashions. The Roman record is more concise and precise. They had to start from the scratch, and almost all past treaties of Iberians with Carthaginians became wet-papyrus, having to suffocate repeated rebellions even within coastal colonies and own former allies as the Saguntians were. By the time the Roman legates sent to their Iberian provinces arrived anywhere near the Iberian regions -where the presence of E-M81 is today more conspicuously notorious among the locals, their employed North-African auxiliaries in their armies have been fighting and stationed too all the way from Carthage-Nova. But interestingly and strangely, given the theory of "Military-M81's".... their imprint on the local population of those older Roman or Carthaginian provinces is soooo much less in lower percentage than in the other side of Iberia.

WHY IS THAT SIMPLE & COMMON LOGIC FAILING??? :thinking:
Even juxtaposing it too for the centuries later Arabs-Muslim dominion of similar Mediterranean coastal provinces of Iberia for many centuries too.
Where is the archaeological backing evidence of any substantial North-African presence in the North West of Iberia, if Moorish with their Mosques plants ruins or their minimal Moabite cenobiums, or just their tombstones (even recycled within later buildings) and their military accouterments from same origin, as they have been found in other regions of the peninsula -where their presence is supposedly on the genetic outcome to have been less-.
And they don't need to be even as big as the African elephant bones -from that period- found outside Numantia!
Just some North-African lesser things, anything somewhere within Portugal-Galicia-NW Spain. From small tweezers for personal use or horse trappings of the equestrian wings of North Africans within the Roman Empire, seen even by the Hungarian Limes stations. Why not more profuse in Northwest Iberia.... according to theory?

Beavrrit
21-02-14, 22:43
And given, that we know for SURE, that North African troops of the Islamic Caliphate occupation armies were cantoned on the Northwest of the Iberian peninsula, from Asturica-Legio in the plains deep into the Gallaecia and Asturicum provinces all the way to their coastal city ports from Gijon to Vigo passing through the main towns of Lugo and Iriae Flavia, exactly from 713 to 739 when they abandoned their posts and shipped back to join the renewed rebellion in their homeland... Of those 26 so long years of certainty we have even less extant from the ground evidence, than what expected at any other side of the peninsula where their presence was sooooooo much looooooonger, but strangely (!) genetically of much less impact than seen over there. If they were so productive breeding in that short period of time, why would they have left that Paradise-dream military post to go join the carnage back in Maghreb? The reports and some archaeological data indicate, that those years of dream occupation and post-breeding "blooming season" were under the hardly good rearing times of plagues and famines, due to excessive dry weather that ruined harvests causing a high mortality twice in a row for any successful outcome of it, for new comers even less than for the most populous "local lineages".

Drac II
22-02-14, 16:18
Well, let's see why and for how long that runs.
This can't be part of the blind Africanism running savage elsewhere, but a "lite-version" of it trying to conscript all African traces in Europe into some pseudo-military "invader" intruder set. Is that it? And I hope is not either from the Nordicist rehash-supremacy kitchens.
So let's start with the Iberians peninsula conundrum, and the supposedly Legionnaire-theories. Which will it may work "as well" as those who LUMPED all "Asian" (Middle-easterners' most common) haplogroups present in the modern population of the peninsula, to their only brand of "Semites"... What was that, up to one THIRD of the modern inhabitants of Spain (perhaps Portugal) are "Jews" or descendants of them? Lost tribes, renegade Hebrews or what not?

If I read you correctly, this is a reference to that claim by Adams et al., which besides being absurd (they interpreted even haplogroup I as "Jewish"; yes, that's how desperate they were to find anything they could attribute to "non-European" influence in the Iberian Peninsula) it does indeed refer to both Spain and Portugal put together under the term "Iberia".

Regarding foreign military occupations supposedly affecting the northwestern part of the peninsula: I agree. There was hardly any of it, either in Roman or Islamic times. Paradoxically for those who want to make such claims, the southern parts of the Peninsula, the ones that saw the most activity in this regard, have less of these haplogroups that keep getting manipulated by people with agendas.

Aaron
24-11-18, 21:58
I don't know if E-M81 is what My Heritage calls North African DNA, but in accord with that company, 21% of Portuguese have North African DNA vs. 5% of Spaniards, 4% Italians and 1% Greeks.

Angela
24-11-18, 22:51
I don't know if E-M81 is what My Heritage calls North African DNA, but in accord with that company, 21% of Portuguese have North African DNA vs. 5% of Spaniards, 4% Italians and 1% Greeks.

Uniparental markers are only part of the story, and this uniparental marker is only one of the ones which might have been brought by the "Moors", even if the majority of them were North Africans. There are other y lines in North Africa. Plus, a certain percentage of the invaders came from the Near East, so there is that to consider.

In addition, what the testing companies are using to determine "North African" ancestry is autosomal dna, not uniparental markers, which account for a very small amount of ancestry.

Also, in the future, it would be helpful if you could provide links for your facts. For example, the only place in Italy with appreciable E-M81 is Sicily, with perhaps a bit in other places in the south. It is exceedingly rare in most of Italy.

Aaron
24-11-18, 23:01
Uniparental markers are only part of the story, and this uniparental marker is only one of the ones which might have been brought by the "Moors", even if the majority of them were North Africans. There are other y lines in North Africa. Plus, a certain percentage of the invaders came from the Near East, so there is that to consider.

In addition, what the testing companies are using to determine "North African" ancestry is autosomal dna, not uniparental markers, which account for a very small amount of ancestry.

Also, in the future, it would be helpful if you could provide links for your facts. For example, the only place in Italy with appreciable E-M81 is Sicily, with perhaps a bit in other places in the south. It is exceedingly rare in most of Italy.

Of course, I'll provide links, but unfortunately at this moment, as a new user I don`t have enough permissions to post links.

Aaron
25-11-18, 00:55
Those are the links:

Portugal https://www.myheritage.com/ethnicities/portugal/country-ethnicity-distribution
Spain https://www.myheritage.com/ethnicities/spain/country-ethnicity-distribution
Italy https://www.myheritage.com/ethnicities/italy/country-ethnicity-distribution

Angela
25-11-18, 01:04
Those are the links:

Portugal https://www.myheritage.com/ethnicities/portugal/country-ethnicity-distribution
Spain https://www.myheritage.com/ethnicities/spain/country-ethnicity-distribution
Italy https://www.myheritage.com/ethnicities/italy/country-ethnicity-distribution


As I've tried to explain to you, that 2.3% (not 4%, as well) supposed "North African" in Italians does not refer to uniparental markers, much less only to E-M81. It refers to autosomal dna.

Moreover, MyHeritage is a particularly bad company for autosomal analysis of "ethnic" percentages, imo.

I realize this all seems very complicated in the beginning. If you spend some time using the search engine I'm sure things will start to get clearer.

Aaron
25-11-18, 01:07
As I've tried to explain to you, that 2.3% (not 4%, as well) supposed "North African" in Italians does not refer to uniparental markers, much less only to E-M81. It refers to autosomal dna.

Moreover, MyHeritage is a particularly bad company for autosomal analysis of "ethnic" percentages, imo.

I realize this all seems very complicated in the beginning. If you spend some time using the search engine I'm sure things will start to get clearer.

North African for Italians is 4.5% in accord that link, Angela. Thanks for the explanation.

Angela
25-11-18, 02:09
North African for Italians is 4.5% in accord that link, Angela. Thanks for the explanation.

I stand corrected. 4.5 for Italy, and 5.9 for Spain.

Regardless, this seems to be, from a closer reading of the links, autosomal ancestry, not yDna, so your links are mislabeled, and do not really have anything to do with this thread.

Furthermore, they would seem to be in conflict with both academic papers and autosomal analyses such as those which can be accessed through gedmatch.

As for E-M81: the map is the first post of this thread.


https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=Fp3k%2feDz&id=DB35AFC6018D304409DB021EA9FCEC8C0981E541&thid=OIP.Fp3k_eDzG_x9TzFZ_baUZAHaFX&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fs-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%2f736x%2f58%2f01%2f2e%2f58012e8e5a1 e98e613415c7beee07599.jpg&exph=534&expw=736&q=percentage+of+North+African+ancestry+in+people+o f+Spain&simid=608041383279199234&selectedIndex=74&ajaxhist=0

Elaishousse
13-02-19, 17:10
There is a sample in Denmark

Parafarne
29-04-19, 21:26
Could the high percentage (75%) of E-m81 in n.africa have been much less mirroring L, M, U6 (29%)mtdna in the region in prehistory and eurasian ydna G, J2, R-v88, J1 have been in much higher percentages mirroring eurasian mtdna numbers, before deminishing like I2, G hgs in europe after IE settlements? because of wars, male-only immigration to europe by these eurasian ydna hgs as soldiers of phoenicians?

Megalophias
29-04-19, 21:46
E-M81 has clearly had a huge and quite recent expansion which must have diluted everything else around at the time. But it isn't easy to tell what was around before E-M81 and what has arrived later. Drift and sex-biased gene flow could have altered the original proportions of African and Eurasian mtDNA vs Y DNA.

Most of the J1 in North Africa falls into young Arabian branches, so probably came after E-M81. R1b-V88 is likely older. E-M2 is hard to tell, I'd guess some is early and some is late.

Johane Derite
29-04-19, 21:57
This paper from 2018, believed that E and mtdna L3 was eurasian and back migrated into africa:

RESULTS:

The coalescence ages of all Eurasian (M,N) and African (L3 ) lineages, both around 71 kya, are not significantly different. The oldest M and N Eurasian clades are found in southeastern Asia instead near of Africa as expected by the southern route hypothesis. The split of the Y-chromosome composite DE haplogroup is very similar to the age of mtDNA L3. An Eurasian origin and back migration to Africa has been proposed for the African Y-chromosome haplogroup E. Inside Africa, frequency distributions of maternal L3 and paternal E lineages are positively correlated. This correlation is not fully explained by geographic or ethnic affinities. This correlation rather seems to be the result of a joint and global replacement of the old autochthonous male and female African lineages by the new Eurasian incomers.


CONCLUSIONS:

These results are congruent with a model proposing an out-of-Africa migration into Asia, following a northern route, of early anatomically modern humans carrying pre-L3 mtDNA lineages around 125 kya, subsequent diversification of pre-L3 into the basal lineages of L3, a return to Africa of Eurasian fully modern humans around 70 kya carrying the basal L3 lineages and the subsequent diversification of Eurasian-remaining L3 lineages into the M and N lineages in the outside-of-Africa context, and a second Eurasian global expansion by 60 kya, most probably, out of southeast Asia. Climatic conditions and the presence of Neanderthals and other hominins might have played significant roles in these human movements. Moreover, recent studies based on ancient DNA and whole-genome sequencing are also compatible with this hypothesis.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29921229?fbclid=IwAR3gTQRtEkYRMF3y_zUlu3xTOe40D5VL SAebBfRn-4e_sKdHsVJDqi825WA (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29921229?fbclid=IwAR3gTQRtEkYRMF3y_zUlu3xTOe40D5VL SAebBfRn-4e_sKdHsVJDqi825WA)

kingjohn
26-05-19, 09:20
In the e3b project there are 2 cases of e-m81 in Sweden and I checked there surnames are swedish so it is not recent northwest african immigrants to sweden

any scenario people who brought it to sweden ? Romans in Sweden?

Elaishousse
05-06-19, 21:42
hi beavrrit
Yes the remains Guanche contain haplogroup EM81 at an important rate

Elaishousse
05-06-19, 21:47
hi kingjohn (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/51627-kingjohn)

They may be Roman soldiers or slaves who ended up in Sweden
Now there was a commercial relationship between the Romans and Scandinavia

kingjohn
06-06-19, 15:37
e-m81 is more than 5% in ille de france and auvergane
source : https://www.fsigeneticssup.com/article/S1875-1768(09)00234-0/fulltext
and this research was done on people with french surnames
i think the spread of e-m81 is more complicated it exist in france in areas that were not under muslim rule

i add the table of research because we cant see it in the link i added :



Region
Nb
BD
E*
E-M35*
E-M78
E-M81
E-M34
G
I
J1
J2
K
N1c
P*
R1a
R1b1
T


1 Alsace (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsace)
80
0
0
0
6.25
0
3.75
2.50
8.75
1.25
8.75
1.25
0
0
3.75
58.75
5


2 Auvergne (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auvergne_(region))
89
0
2.25
0
3.37
5.62
1.12
8.99
4.49
3.37
7.87
1.12
0
0
5.62
52.80
3.37


3 Brittany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittany_(administrative_region))
115
0
0
0
0
0
0
1.74
13.04
0.87
2.61
0
0
0
0.87
80.88
0


4 Île-de-France (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Ele-de-France_(region))
91
0
10.99
0
4.40
5.49
1.10
4.40
7.69
1.10
5.49
0
1.10
0
2.20
56.05
0


5 Midi-Pyrénées (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midi-Pyr%C3%A9n%C3%A9es)
67
0
1.49
1.49
2.99
1.49
1.49
4.48
10.45
4.48
7.46
0
0
0
2.99
59.69
1.49


6 Nord-Pas-de-Calais (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord-Pas-de-Calais)
68
0
1.47
1.47
5.88
4.41
0
7.35
8.82
0
5.88
0
0
0
2.94
61.76
0


7 Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provence-Alpes-C%C3%B4te_d%27Azur)
45
2.22
0
2.22
8.89
2.22
0
6.67
8.89
0
6.67
0
0
4.44
0
55.55
2.22


Mainland France
555
0.32
2.31
0.74
4.54
2.75
1.07
5.16
8.88
1.58
6.39
0.34
0.16
0.63
2.62
60.78
1.73

Elaishousse
06-06-19, 20:02
Hi kingjohn (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/51627-kingjohn)
There are remains in the south of France on the Haplougroup EM81 and the age of the remains is 1300 years and according to the method buried was islamic
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0148583

Angela
06-06-19, 20:44
An E-M81 ended up in Parma too. Soldiers went everywhere.

berun
07-06-19, 10:31
methodology in genetic studies are in many cases pitable, they simply get hospital samples with French surnames... how have done a discrimination about which surname is French, Alsatian Germanic surnames like Weis or Loeb were included or excluded?

moreover they did not take care about ancestry of samples (like being fourth generation in the same department), and that in France is very important as there are 30% of internal migration, one in three coming from other regions, two in three from another departement inside the region.

Plus, some some 30% have origins outside of core France:


2008, according to The National Institute of Statistics (INSEE, for its acronym in French), there were 12 million immigrants and their direct descendants (2nd generation) making up about 20% of the population.[26] with an immigrant defined as a foreign born person without French citizenship at birth. Without considering citizenship at birth, people not born in metropolitan France and their direct descendants made up 30% of the population aged 18–50 in metropolitan France in 2008

so this study has so much value as to know Y DNA distribution as counting doves in Paris as to know how many car crashes will be this year in Toulouse.

kingjohn
07-06-19, 15:03
yes but e-m81 also exist among some French Canadians families /surnames do we agree that the presence of e-m81 among those familes are not recent immigrant no chance and you know it.
about this research
the more than 5% of e- m81 in auvergane might be not recent there is a logical conection to those 650Ad buried Muslims in nimes which is not far georgraphicaly you might have a point about the e-m81% in Paris and lille in the north though.

Angela
07-06-19, 17:14
I don't know which study found the high percentage in the Paris and Lille areas (or studies), but it's absolutely false and perhaps deliberately misleading to state that the authors of population genetics papers just get samples from hospitals. I know of only one study which did that, and, unfortunately, it was an Italian one.

This is the kind of thing said by people who don't like what studies show.

It's easy to check. Every study tells you how they procured their samples, and the criterion for choice. The usual standard is four grandparents born in the same area. In y dna studies they're looking at the males. Just find the study or studies and check. It's easy enough.

@King John,
That's absolutely correct.

Angela
07-06-19, 17:29
I don't know which study found the high percentage in the Paris and Lille areas (or studies), but it's absolutely false and perhaps deliberately misleading to state that the authors of population genetics papers just get samples from hospitals. I know of only one study which did that, and, unfortunately, it was an Italian one.

This is the kind of thing said by people who don't like what studies show.

It's easy to check. Every study tells you how they procured their samples, and the criterion for choice. The usual standard is four grandparents born in the same area. In y dna studies they're looking at the males. Just find the study or studies and check. It's easy enough.

@King John,
That's absolutely correct.

As to French Canadian people, I remember from my days on 23andme that quite a few French Canadians would get a tiny sliver of North African and didn't have any clue why. I know most of the migration to Canada was from the Northwest and Center, but if any came from the south, there is an explanation.

General Information:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_invasion_of_Gaul

Saracen kingdom of Provence: Fraxinetum
https://www.history.ubc.ca/sites/default/files/users/cbooker/docs/Ballan_Fraxinetum.pdf

If it makes Berun feel any better, they raided in all directions, including into the mountain passes of Italy. :)

berun
07-06-19, 18:17
I don't think that true ancestral E-M87 in France could be assigned to Muslim raids, instead, to "internal" migrations in the Roman Empire and above all to the retreat of imperials in the fall of the empire.

berun
07-06-19, 18:20
Sample collection was performed drawing blood of unrelated male individuals with French surname after informed consent

let me know if French laws allow blood extraction in cafeterias or Disneyland...

Angela
07-06-19, 18:34
I don't think that true ancestral E-M87 in France could be assigned to Muslim raids, instead, to "internal" migrations in the Roman Empire and above all to the retreat of imperials in the fall of the empire.

Special pleading. How the hell would you know that????

How typical. Anything rather than ancestry from the Moors. Pathetic.

Like it or not, the Kingdom of Fraxinetum existed, founded by Saracens, for a good long time.

You make one more smarmy comment unsupported by fact, and I'm going to delete it.

GO TO THE STUDIES IN QUESTION, and show that the procedure for collection was faulty, or SHUT UP.

kingjohn
14-08-20, 14:32
so yfull put some ancient guanches sample
in there tree.....

GUN011 which is dated to 695–888 C.E
anyway cool :cool-v:
https://yfull.com/tree/E-PF2546*/


p.s
i wish they have done it for other ancient e1b1b1 samples also.... :thinking:

kingjohn
15-08-20, 14:42
e-m81 is more than 5% in ille de france and auvergane
source : https://www.fsigeneticssup.com/article/S1875-1768(09)00234-0/fulltext
and this research was done on people with french surnames
i think the spread of e-m81 is more complicated it exist in france in areas that were not under muslim rule

i add the table of research because we cant see it in the link i added :



Region
Nb
BD
E*
E-M35*
E-M78
E-M81
E-M34
G
I
J1
J2
K
N1c
P*
R1a
R1b1
T


1 Alsace (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsace)
80
0
0
0
6.25
0
3.75
2.50
8.75
1.25
8.75
1.25
0
0
3.75
58.75
5


2 Auvergne (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auvergne_(region))
89
0
2.25
0
3.37
5.62
1.12
8.99
4.49
3.37
7.87
1.12
0
0
5.62
52.80
3.37


3 Brittany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittany_(administrative_region))
115
0
0
0
0
0
0
1.74
13.04
0.87
2.61
0
0
0
0.87
80.88
0


4 Île-de-France (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Ele-de-France_(region))
91
0
10.99
0
4.40
5.49
1.10
4.40
7.69
1.10
5.49
0
1.10
0
2.20
56.05
0


5 Midi-Pyrénées (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midi-Pyr%C3%A9n%C3%A9es)
67
0
1.49
1.49
2.99
1.49
1.49
4.48
10.45
4.48
7.46
0
0
0
2.99
59.69
1.49


6 Nord-Pas-de-Calais (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord-Pas-de-Calais)
68
0
1.47
1.47
5.88
4.41
0
7.35
8.82
0
5.88
0
0
0
2.94
61.76
0


7 Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provence-Alpes-C%C3%B4te_d%27Azur)
45
2.22
0
2.22
8.89
2.22
0
6.67
8.89
0
6.67
0
0
4.44
0
55.55
2.22


Mainland France
555
0.32
2.31
0.74
4.54
2.75
1.07
5.16
8.88
1.58
6.39
0.34
0.16
0.63
2.62
60.78
1.73





this research was real
here the map of provinces from which samples were taken( with haplogroups) :good_job:
https://i.imgur.com/PcNGA22.jpg

Angela
15-08-20, 16:27
this research was real
here the map of provinces from which samples were taken( with haplogroups) :good_job:
https://i.imgur.com/PcNGA22.jpg



Modern frequencies for France normally aren't all that helpful, I'm afraid. There are lots and lots of North Africans in southeastern France as well as in other parts of France. It can total 20% or more of the population. You should visit Marseilles.

I'd be very surprised if the study from which the pie chart comes used only men with French last names. Could you direct me to the page in the study where it says that? It seems a bit unlikely given how French law prohibits "racial" or ethnic identification in most matters.

We also shouldn't forget Fraxinetum, and it's possible effect not only on Provence, but neighboring areas. I think the Auvergne could be explained that way through a spread from there and then some founder effect if it's really found in men with French surnames. After all, Nimes, where three Berber skeletons of the Medieval period were buried facing Mecca, is not all that far from some parts of the Auvergne.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraxinetum

https://khronoshistoria.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/mapa-fraxinetum.jpg

It seems that some percentage of the pirates were actually Muslim converts from Andalucia, which might be another reason for some Iberian specific R1b in that area and even western Liguria.

Of course, given the small number of men, their autosomal signature would have been wiped out pretty quickly.

Unless the yDna analysis got down very far into subclades to determine if these are men with parentage from North Africa recently or from the Middle Ages, I would think.

kingjohn
15-08-20, 16:44
Modern frequencies for France normally aren't all that helpful, I'm afraid. There are lots and lots of North Africans in southeastern France as well as in other parts of France. It can total 20% or more of the population. You should visit Marseilles.

I'd be very surprised if the study from which the pie chart comes used only men with French last names. Could you direct me to the page in the study where it says that? It seems a bit unlikely given how French law prohibits "racial" or ethnic identification in most matters.

We also shouldn't forget Fraxinetum, and it's possible effect not only on Provence, but neighboring areas. I think the Auvergne could be explained that way through a spread from there and then some founder effect if it's really found in men with French surnames. After all, Nimes, where three Berber skeletons of the Medieval period were buried facing Mecca, is not all that far from some parts of the Auvergne.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraxinetum

https://khronoshistoria.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/mapa-fraxinetum.jpg

It seems that some percentage of the pirates were actually Muslim converts from Andalucia, which might be another reason for some Iberian specific R1b in that area and even western Liguria.

Of course, given the small number of men, their autosomal signature would have been wiped out pretty quickly.

Unless the yDna analysis got down very far into subclades to determine if these are men with parentage from North Africa recently or from the Middle Ages, I would think.

yes i was in marseilles when i was 22 years old that was 13 years ago lol:smile:
and there were indeed many algerians there but i also saw many italians
and armenians
i liked marseilles it fealt very cosmopolitan i didn't fealt stranger there .....:smile:

yes the people in this research are with french surname :cool-v:


2. Materials and methods

Sample collection was performed drawing blood of unrelated male individuals with French surname after informed consent.

source:

https://www.fsigeneticssup.com/article/S1875-1768(09)00234-0/fulltext



p.s
some branches of e-m81 could be pretty old in france 300-500 AD :cool-v:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY9753/


https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A1152/

but i am open minded to the nimes e-m81 samples that could be somehow related to
auvergne :)

Angela
15-08-20, 18:57
yes i was in marseilles when i was 22 years old that was 13 years ago lol:smile:
and there were indeed many algerians there but i also saw many italians
and armenians
i liked marsile it fealt very cosmopolitan i didn't fealt stranger there .....:smile:

yes the people in this research are with french surname :cool-v:
2. Materials and methods

Sample collection was performed drawing blood of unrelated male individuals with French surname after informed consent.

source:

https://www.fsigeneticssup.com/article/S1875-1768(09)00234-0/fulltext



p.s
some branches of e-m81 could be pretty old in france 300-500 AD :cool-v:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY9753/


https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A1152/

but i am open minded to the nimes e-m81 samples that could be somehow related to
auvergne :)




Thanks. That’s very interesting indeed.

The name of the paper escapes me now but I think I remember reading somewhere that migration to Spain from North Africa actually began before the massive invasion. I wonder if E-M81 just migrated around the rim of the Mediterranean there a bit. I also don’t know exactly where all the Roman north African cavalry units were stationed.

I also think I remember one Scottish clan is E-M81.

I have to admit I’m not a big fan of Marseilles itself; Port cities are always dirty and crime ridden, but I love the rest of Provence. It was once ours, you know, hence all the Italian surnames. :)

I go every year in the summer when I'm in Italy. I've made good friends there. It's only a few hours drive and I feel just like I'm still home.

kingjohn
15-08-20, 19:35
Thanks. That’s very interesting indeed.

The name of the paper escapes me now but I think I remember reading somewhere that migration to Spain from North Africa actually began before the massive invasion. I wonder if E-M81 just migrated around the rim of the Mediterranean there a bit. I also don’t know exactly where all the Roman north African cavalry units were stationed.I also think I remember one Scottish clan is E-M81.

I have to admit I’m not a big fan of Marseilles itself; Port cities are always dirty and crime ridden, but I love the rest of Provence. It was once ours, you know, hence all the Italian surnames. :)

I go every year in the summer when I'm in Italy. I've made good friends there. It's only a few hours drive and I feel just like I'm still home.


could be :thinking:


the scottish clan is this :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Menzies

they might have origin from normandy :thinking:
but can also be from (roman times) roman units of north african origin that were station in england scotland border :smile:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A930/