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Maciamo
26-09-13, 14:23
To complete the series of main E1b1b subclades after E-V13 and E-M81, here is the map of E-M123, the most Middle Eastern of the three clades.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-M123.gif (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#M123)

I admit that I am a bit at a loss regarding its origin in Europe. M123 doesn't appear to be related to Neolithic cultures in the Balkans, which are almost exclusively E-V13 within haplogroup E. All I can say is that it is found at higher frequencies in places colonised by the Phoenicians (over 10% in Ibiza and in parts of Sicily) and that it may have been spread to Western Europe by the Romans and the Jews. Its distribution in Britain matches quite well the main Roman cities, roughly a triangle between London, Chester/Manchester and Bristol. It's also been found in southern Scotland. Unfortunately I have no data for the Latium in Italy, but the highest percentage appears to be in Campania (based on a small sample size). It was probably brought to Italy by the Etruscans from Anatolia.

The hotspot in Spanish Extremadura may have something to do with the major Roman colony of Merida. But that alone wouldn't explain the overall higher frequency in western Iberia, mimicking those of E-M81 and E-V13. Western Iberia is really special in having a lot of the three main E1b1b subclades, despite the fact that the three have very different distributions.

matbir
26-09-13, 15:16
Grate map!
I doubt that M123 was brought by Etruscans, because it’s rarer in their homeland (Tuscany) then in areas south and east from it.
Notice that only one out of 204 Kashubians of northern Poland was found to be M123 according Rebala et al. 2012, and zero out of 64 according Wozniak et al. 2010. It means that frequency in Kashubians is lower than 0,5%( 1/204=0,49%, 1/268=0,37%).

Fire Haired
28-09-13, 02:42
I wouldn't trust so much on modern frequencies to contect with ancient cultures because is much has changed deifntley since the Neolithic age. Some areas changed more which would lower their amount of Y DNA spread in the Neolithic. Maybe Indo Europeans who conquered spread native Y DNA like with i2a2a M223 and I1 a lot was spread by Germanic tribes. The Romans may have had a part in spreading E1b1b M123. Kind of how J2 is higher in southern England which could be because of Rome. Why didn't Rome spread any R1b S28 that doesn't make sense to me I am not sure if there is any Y DNa to say their empire spread for sure exceot maybe some E1b1b, J1, and J2. The higher amount of E1b1b in central France I guess is a lot of different subclades with probably did not come all together.

Maciamo
28-09-13, 07:57
Grate map!
I doubt that M123 was brought by Etruscans, because it’s rarer in their homeland (Tuscany) then in areas south and east from it.
Notice that only one out of 204 Kashubians of northern Poland was found to be M123 according Rebala et al. 2012, and zero out of 64 according Wozniak et al. 2010. It means that frequency in Kashubians is lower than 0,5%( 1/204=0,49%, 1/268=0,37%).

E-M123 was only tested in fairly recent studies (last 4 years) so the samples I could use for Tuscany are limited to the Boattini et al. study, which tested only the northern and southern extremes of Tuscany (Massa/Pistoia and Grosseto/Siena). M123 was only found in the south because the north is so overwhelmingly R1b, which I doubt is a reflection of the ancient Etruscans. However ancient Etruria spread all the way north to Veneto, where M123 is quite high (2.5%).

Maciamo
28-09-13, 07:57
Grate map!
I doubt that M123 was brought by Etruscans, because it’s rarer in their homeland (Tuscany) then in areas south and east from it.
Notice that only one out of 204 Kashubians of northern Poland was found to be M123 according Rebala et al. 2012, and zero out of 64 according Wozniak et al. 2010. It means that frequency in Kashubians is lower than 0,5%( 1/204=0,49%, 1/268=0,37%).

E-M123 was only tested in fairly recent studies (last 4 years) so the samples I could use for Tuscany are limited to the Boattini et al. study, which tested only the northern and southern extremes of Tuscany (Massa/Pistoia and Grosseto/Siena). M123 was only found in the south because the north is so overwhelmingly R1b, which I doubt is a reflection of the ancient Etruscans. However ancient Etruria spread all the way north to Veneto, where M123 is quite high (2.5%).

LeBrok
28-09-13, 17:24
It reminds me distribution of J1.


http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J1.gif

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-M123.gif

Angela
28-09-13, 17:40
It reminds me distribution of J1.


http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J1.gif

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-M123.gif

You're right; it does. I'd have to check the studies, but I think most of European J1 is of the non-Arabian variety, isn't it?

Maciamo
28-09-13, 18:19
It reminds me distribution of J1.


I thought about it too. J1 and E-M123 are both typical of Southwest Asia, so it makes sense. In Europe their distribution match especially well in Greece, Italy, France, Germany and Hungary. What is especially interesting about Hungary is that most of its J1 is the Southwest Asian J1-P58 variety, not the other subclades linked to the Neolithic diffusion of agriculture.

Maciamo
28-09-13, 18:19
It reminds me distribution of J1.


I thought about it too. J1 and E-M123 are both typical of Southwest Asia, so it makes sense. In Europe their distribution match especially well in Greece, Italy, France, Germany and Hungary. What is especially interesting about Hungary is that most of its J1 is the Southwest Asian J1-P58 variety (according to the 188 samples tested by Martinez-Cruz et al. 2012 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041803)), not the other subclades linked to the Neolithic diffusion of agriculture.

Sile
28-09-13, 19:58
just to clarify Massa, it was historically always ligurian lands and ligurian people until Mussolini placed it under Tuscany less than 100 years ago.

adamo
28-09-13, 20:12
That region of northwestern Tuscany has some of Italy's highest R1b frequencies with 70-80%, Tuscany is also were U-152 peaks in Italy along with the Northwest Cuneo region and the north-central Brescia regions of Italy. (40-50% u152 in those regions.) same for theNorthwest Tuscany region but there's a massive R1b total.

Sile
30-09-13, 09:08
To complete the series of main E1b1b subclades after E-V13 and E-M81, here is the map of E-M123, the most Middle Eastern of the three clades.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-M123.gif (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#M123)

I admit that I am a bit at a loss regarding its origin in Europe. M123 doesn't appear to be related to Neolithic cultures in the Balkans, which are almost exclusively E-V13 within haplogroup E. All I can say is that it is found at higher frequencies in places colonised by the Phoenicians (over 10% in Ibiza and in parts of Sicily) and that it may have been spread to Western Europe by the Romans and the Jews. Its distribution in Britain matches quite well the main Roman cities, roughly a triangle between London, Chester/Manchester and Bristol. It's also been found in southern Scotland. Unfortunately I have no data for the Latium in Italy, but the highest percentage appears to be in Campania (based on a small sample size). It was probably brought to Italy by the Etruscans from Anatolia.

The hotspot in Spanish Extremadura may have something to do with the major Roman colony of Merida. But that alone wouldn't explain the overall higher frequency in western Iberia, mimicking those of E-M81 and E-V13. Western Iberia is really special in having a lot of the three main E1b1b subclades, despite the fact that the three have very different distributions.

IMO, the maps major hotspots reflect, the Kurds, the orignial Hebrew homeland of sinai area before they moved North and the original homeland of the Armenians of cicilia ( if they where armenians at all )

Angela
30-09-13, 19:14
To complete the series of main E1b1b subclades after E-V13 and E-M81, here is the map of E-M123, the most Middle Eastern of the three clades.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-M123.gif (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#M123)

I admit that I am a bit at a loss regarding its origin in Europe. M123 doesn't appear to be related to Neolithic cultures in the Balkans, which are almost exclusively E-V13 within haplogroup E. All I can say is that it is found at higher frequencies in places colonised by the Phoenicians (over 10% in Ibiza and in parts of Sicily) and that it may have been spread to Western Europe by the Romans and the Jews. Its distribution in Britain matches quite well the main Roman cities, roughly a triangle between London, Chester/Manchester and Bristol. It's also been found in southern Scotland. Unfortunately I have no data for the Latium in Italy, but the highest percentage appears to be in Campania (based on a small sample size). It was probably brought to Italy by the Etruscans from Anatolia.

The hotspot in Spanish Extremadura may have something to do with the major Roman colony of Merida. But that alone wouldn't explain the overall higher frequency in western Iberia, mimicking those of E-M81 and E-V13. Western Iberia is really special in having a lot of the three main E1b1b subclades, despite the fact that the three have very different distributions.

Is that hotspot in Calabria from the Semino 2004 study? I believe that was taken from a community of Albanians in Cosenza...Arbereshe or not, I don't recall. I'll have to check. If that's the case, I'm very surprised that it doesn't show up in higher numbers in Albanians.

I think that 11% in Sicily (which is an anomaly since island wide it seems to be just under 5%), is from Piazza Armerina, so that may be a founder effect of some kind. It's strange, because that is a "Lombard" city founded by Frederick II and peopled mainly by settlers from Piacenza. Some people there still speak a Gallic-Italian dialect. Before that, the area was part of a Greek colony, a sub-colony, if you will, of Gela on the southern Sicilian coast, which itself had ties to Siracusa on the south eastern coast. http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piazza_Armerina

Naples, of course, also had Greek ties. As does the Ionian coast of Calabria, so I don't know if it moved from the Calabresi into that Albanian community or vice versa.

Before looking at this, I would have bet on a link with Semitic speakers, because it is so high in Oman, and because the Jewish clades fall under this, but now I really wouldn't venture an opinion.

Goga
30-09-13, 20:09
To complete the series of main E1b1b subclades after E-V13 and E-M81, here is the map of E-M123, the most Middle Eastern of the three clades.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-M123.gif (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#M123)


Thanks again Maciamo. This is a very interesting map. Although I think there is less of this haplogroup E-M123 among Kurds than you show us, around 4-5%. Also, Kurds don’t have that much of hg. E in general. I do believe that haplogroup E-M123 is some kind of a Semitic haplogroup. I think there’s a correlation between this marker and Jews, Chaldeans and Assyrians

Goga
30-09-13, 20:11
IMO, the maps major hotspots reflect, the Kurds, the orignial Hebrew homeland of sinai area before they moved North and the original homeland of the Armenians of cicilia ( if they where armenians at all )Haplogroup E-M123 in Kurdistan can be from Akkadians, Assyrians, Chaldeans or Jews.
It's even possible that the 10 lost tribes of Israel settled down in Kurdistan!

khufu
19-02-14, 11:28
There are only m84 and l792 thise small snps

Levi999
19-03-14, 05:03
Hello I am new to forum. I am of this haplogroup. I would like to know where it originated? Its seams to me that it was spread during the Roman area when Israel was dismantled. I feel that E-M123 is a haplogroup that is found in all Jewish linages. My Parents came into the US in 1947 after WW2, from Spain. I know our history there, it does far back, almost 1100 years in Spain. I just got my results and found to be E-M123 and K1 on my mothers side.

LeBrok
19-03-14, 17:32
Hello I am new to forum. I am of this haplogroup. I would like to know where it originated? Its seams to me that it was spread during the Roman area when Israel was dismantled. I feel that E-M123 is a haplogroup that is found in all Jewish linages. My Parents came into the US in 1947 after WW2, from Spain. I know our history there, it does far back, almost 1100 years in Spain. I just got my results and found to be E-M123 and K1 on my mothers side.
Welcome to Eupedia Levi999.
Jewish people are known to trade, travel and settle in faraway lands way before dismantling of Israel. Understandable many Jews were left behind in Israel and your ancestors could spread and travel freely within Muslim Empire to Spain around 900 AD.

E-M34
24-07-14, 02:18
Looks like the Pelasgians may have been more than legend.

Yetos
24-07-14, 03:58
Looks like the Pelasgians may have been more than legend.

no and since you carry the flag of israel you know about them, they are also written in Hebrew in Izekhiel's book (if remember correct, or Ieremiah).

albanopolis
26-07-14, 16:27
Looks like the Pelasgians may have been more than legend.
Who said Pelasgians were a legend? Most prominent Hellen authors of antiquity wrote about them. Homer mentioned them in "Iliad". They have a 2000 yrs written history. They lived side by side, in separate villages all over Greece for 2000 yrs, speaking a barbaric language and fighting alongside Hellenes, until they were absorbed at 1500 BC. They also inhabited the area that includes Albania, Bosnia, Croatia South and central Italy. So, The Pellasgian layer is a common denominator of all south Europe.

LeBrok
26-07-14, 17:45
We have also a written records about existence of dragons in Medieval Europe, however archaeological proofs never materialized.

albanopolis
26-07-14, 19:07
We have also a written records about existence of dragons in Medieval Europe, however archaeological proofs never materialized.
There is linguistic evidence of their presence. The name Larissa (a town in Greece) or Lisssus( Town in Albania). Athens is another one or Zeus is thought to have Pellasgian ORIGIN. As far as artifacts are not numerous but it could be that their artifacts were incorporated as Greek artifacts. But their presence is well documented so there is no reason to question it.

LeBrok
26-07-14, 19:38
There is linguistic evidence of their presence. The name Larissa (a town in Greece) or Lisssus( Town in Albania). Athens is another one or Zeus is thought to have Pellasgian ORIGIN. As far as artifacts are not numerous but it could be that their artifacts were incorporated as Greek artifacts. But their presence is well documented so there is no reason to question it.
I thought Pelasgian was a general term to name ancient inhabitants of Greece and surrounding islands? It is not a name of nationality or ethnicity. Pre Dorian, pre Hellenic inhabitants. Sort of barbarians in contrast with civilized Greeks of antiquity.

Yetos
26-07-14, 20:46
sorry
nothing

albanopolis
26-07-14, 22:57
I thought Pelasgian was a general term to name ancient inhabitants of Greece and surrounding islands? It is not a name of nationality or ethnicity. Pre Dorian, pre Hellenic inhabitants. Sort of barbarians in contrast with civilized Greeks of antiquity.
The Albanian historians maintain the theory that Pellasgians were all over Southern Europe. There is linguistic evidence about it. I heard archaeologists complain that finding evidence of it has proven difficult in terms of artifacts at least in Albania. Or probably they are not looking in the right place. But given that different Hellen historians of the time, in a span of at least 1500 consecutive yrs there is no reason of doubting it.

Yetos
26-07-14, 23:17
The Albanian historians maintain the theory that Pellasgians were all over Southern Europe. There is linguistic evidence about it. I heard archaeologists complain that finding evidence of it has proven difficult in terms of artifacts at least in Albania. Or probably they are not looking in the right place. But given that different Hellen historians of the time, in a span of at least 1500 consecutive yrs there is no reason of doubting it.

link of an Albanian Historian?

LeBrok
26-07-14, 23:23
The Albanian historians maintain the theory that Pellasgians were all over Southern Europe. There is linguistic evidence about it. I heard archaeologists complain that finding evidence of it has proven difficult in terms of artifacts at least in Albania. Or probably they are not looking in the right place. But given that different Hellen historians of the time, in a span of at least 1500 consecutive yrs there is no reason of doubting it.
I don't doubt there were ancient people who Greeks referred to as Pelasgians. However it is a very difficult (impossible) to determine which culture exactly Greeks historians meant. Without any written records it was hard for these historians to be exact in their statements after hundred or thousands of years. I'm sure you will find contradictory records among historians about Pelasgians, right?
You know how inaccurate human memory is?

Valerius
05-12-16, 23:19
I want to ask - if the Phoenicians brought M34 to Europe who brought M123* (m34 negative)?

ItsBeenAwhile
26-07-17, 04:08
With the recent refinement and standardization of Y-E's subgroups down from E-M123>E-M34>E-L29>E-L29* & E-M136, have there been any new distribution maps produced using these separate groups?

AbdoNumen
20-11-17, 21:06
Maciamo, how many samples is the map based on? Is there a plan to update it soon, as 4 years have passed since it was released?

GSardar
10-12-18, 00:08
Haplogroup E-M123 in Kurdistan can be from Akkadians, Assyrians, Chaldeans or Jews.
It's even possible that the 10 lost tribes of Israel settled down in Kurdistan!

My family on my father's side is Kurdish, all from Kurdistan of Iraq and Iran, and I just learned my dad is the E-M123 haplogroup. I don't know much about this, and this is one of the first pages I've looked at, so I love seeing the connections. :)

Khazar
11-12-18, 16:22
Very nice, but I think it is very misleading considering the depopulation of everyone the Nazis thought "looked Jewish" in the 2nd Reich area.

I think E-M123 is pretty clearly Phoenician and probably spread with the Romans too. I have a suggestion for the presence of E-M123 across Ukraine could be from Akatzir Cursarioi or from Lithuanian Palemonids from Belarussia. I recommend looking at yfull.com for more up to date E-M123 results. Some branches e.g. yfull.com/tree/E-Y6938/ are clearly native to the Lithuanian Grand-Duch area. Also should remember to include Gagauzia and presence in indigenous Crimean populations, Taman and the Caucasus?

Time for an update perhaps?

kingjohn
29-06-19, 15:21
very interesting

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3346985


i got the table one of the scytian/ sarmatian remains from south ural was
E-PF6746
this is one of the e-m84 branches fox
that is so cool:)
he was probably and earlier saka who migrated north and absorbed by the r1a sarmatians
what intresting is that another paper found e-m123* among saka from north east kazachstan

https://i.imgur.com/2UNg2Nq.png

https://i.imgur.com/qdS3ZKd.png

kingjohn
19-07-19, 14:39
from passa e1b1b1 great map :)
the e-m84 eastern scytian dude from the same research in south ural

https://i.imgur.com/SlhhnZh.png

Scythian MJ40 (ScySar_SU) - E-PF6746
(this branch is under e-m84 )

brittney.smith
21-07-19, 11:26
I thought about it too. J1 and E-M123 are both typical of Southwest Asia, so it makes sense. In Europe their distribution match especially well in Greece, Italy, France, Germany and Hungary.

wandering_amorite
07-08-19, 00:23
Very nice, but I think it is very misleading considering the depopulation of everyone the Nazis thought "looked Jewish" in the 2nd Reich area.

I think E-M123 is pretty clearly Phoenician and probably spread with the Romans too. I have a suggestion for the presence of E-M123 across Ukraine could be from Akatzir Cursarioi or from Lithuanian Palemonids from Belarussia. I recommend looking at yfull.com for more up to date E-M123 results. Some branches e.g. yfull.com/tree/E-Y6938/ are clearly native to the Lithuanian Grand-Duch area. Also should remember to include Gagauzia and presence in indigenous Crimean populations, Taman and the Caucasus?

Time for an update perhaps?

Phoenician and native Balto-Slavic ... but not Jewish?

Y6938 is Ashkenazi, with ultimate Levantine origins. It split ca. 400 CE from Y102667, which includes a Libyan Jew, a Turkish/Tunisian Jew, 3 New World Hispanics, and most likely an Algerian Jew. The distribution you're looking at is simply the pattern of Ashkenazi settlement in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

kingjohn
05-10-19, 16:11
from the other Scythian paper

e-m84 branch in 400 bc south ural this could be a migration from bmac direction up north to the steppe
and absorbed by r1a and Q tribes in the steppe
i am talking about e-m84 not e-m123* that might came from the north and we see him in DA19 saka and in north pakistan swat valley remains

source:

https://www.cell.com/current-biology/ful...fw9pxzXa6A (https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(19)30712-2?fbclid=IwAR2DOFdviq2s1am5E6AWKLtoQUsN-xqo8AumcYpO8Q-mgqdiDfw9pxzXa6A)

full list of y haplogroups and mtdna from scytian and other remains from the paper

mtDNA Y-DNA
MJ-06 Ukr_BA 0.184 XX H2a1
MJ-09 Ukr_BA 0.228 XX H13a2c
MJ-08 ר 0.138 XX T2a1b1a
MJ-12 Cimmerians 0.299 XX H35
MJ-31 Cimmerians 0.217 XY U5a1b1 R1a-Z645
MJ-32 Cimmerians 0.296 XY U2e2 R1a2c-B111
MJ-13 Scy_Ukr 0.265 XX H11b1
MJ-14 Scy_Uk ZU_Yr
Za 0.166 XY U2e2 R1a-M417
MJ-16 Scy_Ukr 0.282 XY T2b J2a8-B437
MJ-33 Scy_Ukr 0.078 XY U5a2a2 R1a-M417
MJ-34 Scy_Ukr 0.5 XY W3a1 R1a2-Z93
MJ-35 Scy_Ukr 0.149 XY X4 Q1c-L332
MJ-46 Scy_Ukr 0.173 XX J1d6
MJ-47 Scy_Ukr 0.073 XX T2
MJ-19 Chern 0.21 XX H1n6
MJ-36 Chern 0.02 XX H1c
MJ-37 Chern 0.14 XX T2g1
MJ-38 Sar_Cau 0.092 XY W Q1c-L332
LS-13 ScySar_SU 0.46 XY W3a R1a1e-CTS1123
MJ-39 ScyS4_AaU-1 Z645
MJ-40 ScySar_SU 0.036 XY U5a2 + 16,294 E2b1-PF6746
MJ-41 ScySar_SU 0.529 XX U5b2a1a2
MJ-42 ScySar_SU 0.525 XY T1a1d R1a-Z645
MJ-43 ScySar_SU 0.456 XX C1E
MJ-44 ScySar_SU 0.717 XX U5b2a1a1
MJ-56 ScySar_SU 0.301 XX U5b2c
MJ-51 Scy_Kaz 0.085 XY U5a1f1 R1a-M198
MJ-52 Scy_Kaz 0.092 XY A23 J1b-P58 (3/10)
MJ-53 Scy_Kaz 0.022 XY? U5b2b ​​R1-?
MJ-54 Scy_Kaz 0.027 XX F2

kingjohn
26-02-20, 18:42
from this paper:
https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41559-020-1102-0/MediaObjects/41559_2020_1102_MOESM1_ESM.pdf
this individual from early medieval sardinia
i wish we knew farther if he is m123 , m34 or even downstream clades like e-m84 or e-L791
what we know for sure is that he was e-z830 positive
https://yfull.com/arch-3.10/tree/E1b1b1b2/
GC4 (Sardinia_EarlyMedieval, I12221). Bone, C14 dated to 892-990 calCE (1100±20 BP, PSUAMS-6157).
https://i.imgur.com/QsoUWdl.png

(From passa map

https://i.imgur.com/asAeg1Q.png

appricate his work but this individual was e-z830 not only z827 as he was positive for CTS11781 one of e-z830 equivalent anyway better than nothing kudos for his work :good_job:
some information on him from autosomal point:
Early Medieval Sardinian (I12221):The most recent individual in our dataset (892-990 calCE) was consistent with forming a cladewith the two Late Antiquity Sardinians, and 6 other individuals from the other ancient Sardiniangroups (Supplementary Table 13). However, these results must be viewed with caution because ofthe low coverage of some of the individuals involved leading to small numbers of SNPs covered inboth individuals being compared (the test individual, I12221, has 78437 SNP covered at least once)(Supplementary Data 1). Similar limitations due to small SNP counts are reflected in Fig. 3 of themain manuscript for the low-coverage Sicily_Chalcolithic4936 (23600 SNPs) and Sicily_Chalcolithic(40252 SNPs) individuals, whose evidence of forming a clade with the majority of the otheranalyzed individuals plausibly just reflects limited data and thus limited statistical resolution
source: page 28

kingjohn
25-07-20, 20:02
some e-m84 branches
in arabia levant

https://i.imgur.com/MPobZVE.png

TaktikatEMalet
01-08-20, 19:18
The lack of this in balkans has to rule out phoenician?

The lack of this in many regions of Europe and balkans again maybe rules out being Jewish too, didn't Jews settle in some of those regions where e-m123 is nonexistent/too small? But then again, nazis wiped out a lot of them so difficult to assess so could be Jewish

If you look at the j1 map, it is quite similar. Maybe easy to assume most e-m123 came from middle east & Arabian peninsula in the early muslim conquests of North Africa, Spain/Portugal and South Italy

Can someone compare the tmrca's of the Spanish and Italian e-m123

kingjohn
01-08-20, 20:23
The lack of this in balkans has to rule out phoenician
The lack of this in many regions of Europe and balkans again maybe rules out being Jewish too, didn't Jews settle in some of those regions where e-m123 is nonexistent/too small? But then again, nazis wiped out a lot of them so difficult to assess
If you look at the j1 map, it is quite similar. You can assume most e-m123 came from middle east & Arabian peninsula in the early muslim conquests of North Africa, Spain/Portugal and South Italy
Can someone compare the tmrca's of the Spanish and Italian e-m123

You tear my hourt
I do believe that the nazis reduced the % of e-m123-m34 clade
In europe..... :sad-2:
In europe some branches of e- m34
Are mainly in south italy and sicily.....
They could arrived with muslims
Or more likely in roman period and late antiquity:smile:
There is also a e-m123 pocket in oristano
Sardinia.... :thinking:
Some jews were expeled by emperor tiberius in the year 19Ad
To sardinia....
So in sardinia could be roman jews, or pheonicians carthagenians....:smile:

P.s
e-m123 is present in lebanon 4-5% and in cyprus 10%
E-m123* ( without m34 mutation) is much older in europe iron age/ bronze age or even chl.
But only time can tell.:smile:
Acording to yfull the age of e-m34 in italy and iberia is
Much older but i take it with grain salt
Need to see it back up with ancient dna to believe:thinking:

TaktikatEMalet
08-08-20, 23:06
You tear my hourt
I do believe that the nazis reduced the % of e-m123-m34 clade
In europe..... :sad-2:
In europe some branches of e- m34
Are mainly in south italy and sicily.....
They could arrived with muslims
Or more likely in roman period and late antiquity:smile:
There is also a e-m123 pocket in oristano
Sardinia.... :thinking:
Some jews were expeled by emperor tiberius in the year 19Ad
To sardinia....
So in sardinia could be roman jews, or pheonicians carthagenians....:smile:

P.s
e-m123 is present in lebanon 4-5% and in cyprus 10%
E-m123* ( without m34 mutation) is much older in europe iron age/ bronze age or even chl.
But only time can tell.:smile:
Acording to yfull the age of e-m34 in italy and iberia is
Much older but i take it with grain salt
Need to see it back up with ancient dna to believe:thinking:

If e-m123 existed in Italy that long ago then it probably rules out it being Muslim expansion in South italy

Sardinia has history with phoenicians so if you can find some links with their y dna and lebanese y dna then it's probably phoenician

kingjohn
11-08-20, 08:54
Yes
Sardinia had pheonician influence
I think another branch of e1b1b ( not e- m34)
the e- m81 branch is probably carthegenian in sardinia😉

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A683/

kingjohn
22-08-20, 15:09
Very nice, but I think it is very misleading considering the depopulation of everyone the Nazis thought "looked Jewish" in the 2nd Reich area.
I think E-M123 is pretty clearly Phoenician and probably spread with the Romans too. I have a suggestion for the presence of E-M123 across Ukraine could be from Akatzir Cursarioi or from Lithuanian Palemonids from Belarussia. I recommend looking at yfull.com for more up to date E-M123 results. Some branches e.g. yfull.com/tree/E-Y6938/ are clearly native to the Lithuanian Grand-Duch area. Also should remember to include Gagauzia and presence in indigenous Crimean populations, Taman and the Caucasus?
Time for an update perhaps?
that is correct :smile:
there are some russian samples ( chuvash , tatar )
they belong to the E-L791 sub branches
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y179036/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y152161/

p.s
i also reading the russian dna forum
and there are few cases of mishar tatars who belong to those branches
under E-L791
E-m123 was found in kongaz gagauze 4.2%
and also in south moldova kharasani 4.2%
https://i.imgur.com/QmCFNRb.png

https://i.imgur.com/sNcKaSN.jpg


p.s
But we don' t know if they are: e-m123*, e-m34, E-L791, e- m84:thinking:
i say we don't know the final branch
because in moldova was found a member of e-m123*( PF4428)
"Another E-M123* (PF4428) was found in Moldavia."
source: e3b haplozone
http://community.haplozone.net/index.php?topic=4370.45

kingjohn
24-08-20, 15:00
You tear my hourt
I do believe that the nazis reduced the % of e-m123-m34 clade
In europe..... :sad-2:
In europe some branches of e- m34
Are mainly in south italy and sicily.....
They could arrived with muslims
Or more likely in roman period and late antiquity:smile:
There is also a e-m123 pocket in oristano
Sardinia.... :thinking:
Some jews were expeled by emperor tiberius in the year 19Ad
To sardinia....
So in sardinia could be roman jews, or pheonicians carthagenians....:smile:

P.s
e-m123 is present in lebanon 4-5% and in cyprus 10%
E-m123* ( without m34 mutation) is much older in europe iron age/ bronze age or even chl.
But only time can tell.:smile:
Acording to yfull the age of e-m34 in italy and iberia is
Much older but i take it with grain salt
Need to see it back up with ancient dna to believe:thinking:







The complex genetic structure of CyprusFigure 1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4750176/figure/Fig1/) presents the phylogenetic relationships and frequencies of the Y-chromosome lineages detected in the six districts of Cyprus. Like other populations in Anatolia and Lebanon, Cyprus exhibits a high level of haplogroup J2-M172 related diversity. J2a-M410 is the dominant Y-chromosome lineage, constituting 26.0 % of the overall Cypriot samples. J2b-M12/M102 splits into mainly J2b-M205 (5.9 %), frequent in Southern Levant (Additional file 5 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4750176/#MOESM5): Figure S2), and J2b-M241 (0.6 %), most frequent in Greece and the Balkans [20 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4750176/#CR20), 35 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4750176/#CR35)]. Overall, the E-M35 haplogroup totals to 23.1 % and contains various E-M78 sub-haplogroups including E-V13 (7.3 %) that is common in Greece [10 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4750176/#CR10), 18 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4750176/#CR18), 35 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4750176/#CR35)] and E-V22 (3.5 %), that is frequent in Egypt [10 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4750176/#CR10)] and Sudan [49 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4750176/#CR49)]. Another E-M35 related haplogroup, E-M34, previously reported in Asia Minor [31 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4750176/#CR31)], Southern Levant [50 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4750176/#CR50), 51 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4750176/#CR51)], and the Balkans [35 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4750176/#CR35)] also was observed in Cyprus (10.3 %).

source:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4750176/

kingjohn
18-09-20, 16:00
pribislav anlaysed ART015-028 3369-3110 BC Arslantepe, Turkey; Arslantepe_LC :good_job:

https://i.imgur.com/1K2HO0t.png

and he is : E-CTS9608
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS9608/



from paper:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0092867420305092
Someone uploaded him to yfull :smile::good_job:
https://yfull.com/tree/E-CTS9608/


p.s
i didn't saw that he analysed ETM010
for farther calls
so this sample is still in the E-L795 level :thinking:

kingjohn
19-09-20, 15:10
a sample from late viking age named VK474 from gotland dated to 975AD who apperntly was 98% polish like autosomaly speaking
belonged to e-L791 :cool-v:https://i.imgur.com/GrKJ83z.png

from people who looked in this sample bam file it probably belonged to E-Y4971
E-L791 > Y4971 ( there is a non-jewish pole in this branch in yfull)

https://yfull.com/tree/E-Y4971*/
to be sure i say we wait for pribislav anlaysis
but for sure we know he was E-L791 :smile:
and autosomally speaking was polish like :smile:someone uploaded his autosomal to gedmatch don't know the kit number
his eurogenes k13

https://i.imgur.com/8pblhLq.png


p.s
the source of this sample from this paper:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2688-8
he was uploaded to yfull ( anlaysis in progress) :good_job:

https://yfull.com/tree/E-Y4971/

kingjohn
17-10-20, 19:56
so pribislav apperntly did anlaysed the ETM010 individual :good_job:


ETM010 ;2500-2000 BC;Ebla;Syria_EMBA;E-M84>>>CTS9608 (xY179279,BY79385,CTS2633,PF6391,Y84338,BY10898) (https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?anno=2&depth=1&hl=iw&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=en&sp=nmt4&tl=iw&u=https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS9608/&usg=ALkJrhhhcharSU3aA57K3GzM8gLfsQyUEQ)


https://i.imgur.com/XDYzWMQ.png

https://yfull.com/tree/E-CTS9608/



from paper:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0092867420305092


p.s
it look that most of the middle eastern ancient remains untill now
who belonged to e-m84 are mostly of the E-PF6751 branch

Joey37
17-10-20, 23:13
Judging from the other members of the E-Y4971 branch, VK474 may be descended from a real-life version of the Thirteenth Warrior, albeit through a North Slavic milieu.

kingjohn
18-10-20, 01:47
Judging from the other members of the E-Y4971 branch, VK474 may be descended from a real-life version of the Thirteenth Warrior, albeit through a North Slavic milieu.
Could be
I love this movie it is cool :cool-v:
And underrated in my opinion.... :thinking:
I tend to agree with you...
The only problem is that the dude was 98% polish like in ancestery... ( like the most from all the individuals of this research)
He might be some polish warriour ������
Gotland had trade with the baltic and north poland
Some swedish vikings could kidnaped him and took him to gotland:laughing:
Regards
Adam

P.s
But yes in the year 850Ad he might been
Ahmed ibn -fadhlan or another arab or
armenian
Who knows ..... ..:thinking:

kingjohn
02-11-20, 16:34
yesterday got the results of the e-y14899 snp test
i am negetive for it :thinking:

https://i.imgur.com/Q6WP0IO.jpg

i ordered the e-z827 snp pack
so we will see which other branch of e-m84 i fall ......:thinking:



P.s
There is a huge chance that i belong
To some arabian branch :thinking:

kingjohn
21-11-20, 16:09
Got my results yesterday 20/11 ,Bummer i am negetive for all the downstream of e-s11956 offered by the e- z827 pack , and i am still stuck in the neolithic ������ unfortantue for me the e-z827 don't check for e-s11168 branch which i might fall on it.... ������
I am negetive for: e-y14899, e-y14891, e-z841, e-l791,e-y5412,e-fgc18412,e-fgc18401,e-pf6751,e-pf6747,

https://i.imgur.com/T9JmJXA.png




P.s
It is 90% that i am e-s11168 a branch which is a mizrahi-sefhardi branch
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y60961/
that wasn't checked by the e-z827 snp pack
I might order the big y just need to find away to get 370$������ ���������������� �������������

kingjohn
22-11-20, 16:26
i ordered big y 700 today for my kit
i know it is carzy 370$ :shocked:
but hey
there is this sentence
"you need to know from where you came to know to where you go"

p.s
will see if i am indeed in the e-s11168 branch as i suspect
and if i do big y 700 also anlaysed it farther there ....
the thing is that they also charge later for bam file if i want to upload to yfull:thinking: