When did R1b get to Ireland?

JQP4545

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I was reading that the Irish originated in the northern part of Spain and migrated to Ireland 10,000 years ago at the end of the Ice Ages. But according to this: Eupedia Origins Haplogroups of Europe, R1b did not reach Western Europe until 2,500 BCE. So I'm a little confused. Did the first settlers of Ireland who came from Spain carry R1b or did R1b Indo-Europeans conquer Western Europe thousands of years later, giving the Irish their R1b lineage?
 
The Iberia thing and the idea R1b is Paleoithic Cro magnon European was proven wrong a long time ago. R1b came to Ireland with Celts. y DNA R was originally Mongliod it is brother to Q dominate in native americans and popular in asia, and cousins to O dominate in east asia and N dominate in north asia and Uralic speakers. About 20,000-30,000ybp Mongliods with R has to inter marry with Caucasins R2 would have originated around Iran. R1 may have been brought to Caucasins through Mongliod inter marriage or It developed from R they already had from mongliod inter marriage. It seems R1a probably originated somewhere in Europe and R1b around Iran estimated 18,000ybp for both. R1b was completely mid eastern till R1b1a P297 migrated out of the mid east to Russia and formed into R1b1a1 M73 which is today popular in Russia and central asia. Either R1b1a P297, R1b1a2 M269, or R1b1a2a L23 migrated to Russia or south east Europe about 7,000-10,000ybp. R1b1a2a L23 developed into R1b1a2a1 L51 while in Europe and by this time was migrating towards western Europe and during this developed into R1b1a2a1a L11. And they probably spoke the ancestral language to Germanic and Italo Celtic so while in eastern Europe or northern mid east were connected with Indo Europeans. It split into two major subclades P312 and U106 both estimated as 4,000-5,500 years old. U106 is the Germanic branch and P312 is mainly Italo Celtic with very rare Germanic subclades L238 and Df29. The first major Celtic migration was about 3,500-4,500ybp and the P312 developed into L21 and Df27 both conquering all land west of Germany including the British isles. Celts are also who brought R1b to Iberia vast majority being under R1b Df27 and with small minority L21. This is just a direct male lineage Irish like all Europeans trace most of their ancestry to probably the earliest settlers of Europe.
 
I know that traditionally the say Celts came to the British isles in 500bc which is total BS. People have assumed since the 1800;s Hallstat and Urnfield culture were the first Celts that is very wrong. Urnfield and Hallstat never made a strong presence in Ireland and Britian. R1b S28 is extremely popular in Italians and central Europeans it is connected with Urnfield culture(1,300-700bc) which migrated to Italy about 3,000ybp and is suppose to be who brought Italian languages to Italy. It is also the father to Hallstat Celtic culture and Hallstat and Urnfield totally correlate with the distribution of R1b S28 in Europe. It even extends to the same parts of eastern Europe and central Turkey that la Tene Gaul's conquered around 300bc. But R1b S28 is almost non existent in Ireland and very rare in Britain. it makes sense R1b S28 brother clades R1b L21 and R1b Df27 are the markers of the Celts that migrated to the British isles probably 3,500-4,500ybp.
 
About Europeans being mainly decended from the earliest settlers of Europe. Maybe you have read on some articles about the dis continuity with Paleoithic-Mesloithic European mtDNA and modern European mtDNA(Making of Europe unlocked by DNA). So what these people are arguing in Europeans ancestors were west Asian farmers who first arrived about 9,000ybp who conquered the hunter gathers who traced back to the first settlers of Europe. They exaggerate and can trick people who don't know that much about Genetics. You should click here for a chronology I made of European mtDNA. These hunter gathers from the Paleoithic and Mesloithic were almost 100% under mtDNA U mainly U5, then U4(in Mesloithic), and U2 there are also some H samples it seems they ignore. So it seems there is total dis continuity with modern Europeans and that Europeans could only have very little ancestry from them. But now we have austomal DNA which is not just a direct maternal line. In globe13 aust dna test North Euro the only group to originate in Europe is dominate in Mesloithic and Neloithic hunter gathers. All the ones they tests had either mtDNA U4 or U5 and were the people suspected not to be modern Europeans ancestors. North Euro is the most popular group in Europe in globe13. There is no doubt Europeans get their unque features like dominate pale skin and high amounts of non dark hair and eye colors from Mesloithic-Paleoithic Europeans.
 
I know that traditionally the say Celts came to the British isles in 500bc which is total BS. People have assumed since the 1800;s Hallstat and Urnfield culture were the first Celts that is very wrong. Urnfield and Hallstat never made a strong presence in Ireland and Britian. R1b S28 is extremely popular in Italians and central Europeans it is connected with Urnfield culture(1,300-700bc) which migrated to Italy about 3,000ybp and is suppose to be who brought Italian languages to Italy. It is also the father to Hallstat Celtic culture and Hallstat and Urnfield totally correlate with the distribution of R1b S28 in Europe. It even extends to the same parts of eastern Europe and central Turkey that la Tene Gaul's conquered around 300bc. But R1b S28 is almost non existent in Ireland and very rare in Britain. it makes sense R1b S28 brother clades R1b L21 and R1b Df27 are the markers of the Celts that migrated to the British isles probably 3,500-4,500ybp.

I have not the required data nor the knowledge to speak about Y-R1b date of arriving in W-Europe -
but I suppose Y-R1b-U152 developped well in Alps already at bronze Age, shared by some ancestors of continental P-Celts (Gauls, Belgae), Ligurians and some first waves of Italics (I don't think it was the only HG among Italics by the way) - it was spred on more large scale at Urnfield Age but is older -
I agree with you Y-R1b-L21 is by far the first almost unique HG among Irish people male ligneages but in Britain you can find some non negligeable %s of U152, as in S-E England, C-E Scotland, and not too ridiculous in S-W England, even in Wales, for the most as a result of some Belgae and Gaulish (Switzerland, E-Gaul) tribes -
Britain is not uniform even among non-germanic ligneages, spite some affirmations without sound basis (some "Pan-Brits" nationalism?)
 
L21 deifntley is not unque to Insular Celts it is around 5-10% in France and northern Iberia and stretches all the way to western Germany. R1b L21 and Df27 in my opinon are markers of the first major Celtic invasions of western Europe 3,500-4,500ybp.
 
So what about the Mesolithic Paleolithic Irish? Could they have migrated from Spain to Ireland after the Ice Ages? Some ancient historical accounts say that the Irish were a small, dark people from the Iberian Peninsula, so could these original inhabitants have moved up from Spain and they been conquered by the invading Celts 2,500-4,500 years bp?
 
So the Irish are not descended from Spaniards they are distantly related to Iranians? According to this map they retained 10-15% of their Gedrosian(Persian) DNA.
Gedrosian-admixture.gif
 
So what about the Mesolithic Paleolithic Irish? Could they have migrated from Spain to Ireland after the Ice Ages? Some ancient historical accounts say that the Irish were a small, dark people from the Iberian Peninsula, so could these original inhabitants have moved up from Spain and they been conquered by the invading Celts 2,500-4,500 years bp?

What ancient sources said Irish come from Spain?? We don't know what people in Iberia looked like in the Mesolithic or Paleoithic age. Since in globe North Euro is the only to originate in Europe and is dominate in Mesolithic La Brana 71% a 7,000ybp hunter gather from north Spain. And that today North Euro correlates pretty well with fair hair and eyes Mesolithic Iberians could have looked most like Baltic and Scandinavian people. Soumi and northeastern Finnish though who have about 80% north Euro have same hair and eye color percentages as Iberians we cant say for sure how Mesloithic Iberians looked. THe Celts did not arrived 2,500ybp that theory has been pretty much proven wrong. Hallstat culture never took a strong hold in the British isles Celts would have arrived with R1b L21 and R1b Df27 around 3,500-4,500ybp. I have heard the idea the native Iberians of the British isles were conquered by Celts that just doesn't make sense. The Neloithic people of the British isles most likely went through Britanny not Iberia.
 
So the Irish are not descended from Spaniards they are distantly related to Iranians? According to this map they retained 10-15% of their Gedrosian(Persian) DNA.
Gedrosian-admixture.gif

I guess because of the Gedorsian that shows some common ancestry with Iranians and just anyone with Gedorsian. Iranian people are just a ethnic group that formed around 3,000 years ago like Germanic people and languages did not form till maybe 3,500ybp. So it was not ethnic Iranians that brought R1b1a2a L23 to Europe. Iranians have about 5-10% North Euro in globeq13 because their R1a1a1b2 Z93 comes from migrations out of Europe but you cant give a modern European ethnicity credit.
 
"The Irish descend from Iranians".....: )....lets bury that comment under a thousand other ones and pretend like it never happened XD!!!!!!
 
Hahahaha that's WAY too funny, they must share like 1-2% genetic similarity, maybe less
 
The Irish, as we know, must have either arrived from Britain or from the northern Spain or western France (Brittany) region. It's quite difficult to say wether they were a continuation of Halstatt/la tene Celtic types that moved from Central Europe ever closer to the west, or wether they were among the men that waited out the ice age in the Spain/France border region and from there migrated ever westwards towards Ireland, both these theories have innumerable supporters....what is, though, more than clear at this point due to genetic analysis, is that Irish are extremely heavily Celtic, the most Celtic nation in existence today; some 85-90% of Irish men have the R1b haplogroup mostly any forms of M269, (most is the youngest subclade of R1b-P312, the famous insular Celtic R-L21 clade; either way Irish cluster closest to people's such as English, French, Belgian, Dutch; countries with very high R1bvalues; but Ireland is WAY up there in "celticism", up there with welsh (80-90% R1b) Scottish (75% R1b), English (70-75% R1b) Belgians and Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese; they all have 60-70% R1b, many Swiss, German and italian makes as well (50%) have this marker that is very typically Western Europe and has a maximum in the extreme west (British isles region), although this is only in terms of FREQUENCY, not region of origin of R1b.
 
^^^ So then is R1b an ancient haplogroup, surviving in the West because it is further from Asia, or did its carries invade more recently (perhaps Celts from Central Europe) and kill the indigenous men and spread the haplogroup?
 
I'm going to carry over a post from another forum, which i think is a very good summary. Credit does NOT go to me:

[h=2]Myth busting - the origins of the Irish[/h]
Even today you can still read posts on forums where people keep thinking the Irish R1b is pre-farming or down to some Iberian invasions. So for those who dont know a lot about this I will give a summary. It pretty in line with the findings in Mallory's recent 'Origins of the Irish' book which all those who are interested in truth rather than Myth about the Irish should read.

1. The earliest Irish arrived c. 8000BC according to the earliest dates. They possessed a narrow blade type flint traditions and a tradition of rather substantial round houses. The only close parallel at the right date are from Britain. The earliest date for this culture so far found is dated from some hazlenuts at a camp found at Cramond in south-east Scotland. The best surviving houses of this culture have been found at Mount Sandel in the extreme north of Ireland and another on the Northumbrian coast in the extreme north-east of England. It is probably that their ancestral areas are partly now under the north sea. It is likely that they had some very distant link to the SW refugia but they had left it some 7000 years earlier and probably arrived in Britain via the dry north sea and crossed to Ireland from the narrow crossing that existed c. 8000BC around the Isle of Man and Scotland.


2. The first Irish farmers to settle permanently have recently been accurately dated to c. 3750BC. This also was almost certainly down to groups from the stretch of coast from the Rhine to NW France by the short crossings to southern Britain and they only made it to Ireland a couple of centuries later after a slow spread across Britain. The house, burial and artefact types in Ireland are very similar to those of western Britain and much less like any continental ones. The ultimate origins of the Neolithic farmers was probably part of the northern middle Neolithic stream that spread across from north-central Europe. Before that the Balkans are probably the location.

3. During the Neolithic there was interaction between the continent and western Britain and western Britian and Ireland. This saw the spread of ideas but apparently not many new people other than some wife trading. Despite similar ideas on tombs they kept very different burial traditions, settlement types, pottery etc. In general Ireland and Britain remained infinately closer in all these aspects than either island did with the continent. This climaxed in the mid-late Neolithic with very closely shared ideas in tombs, henges, grooved ware pot, timber circles etc which was a phenomenon of the two islands and quite different to what was going on in the continent - a time of inward looking insularity.

4. In the beaker period Ireland experienced a peculiar localised culture with a crucial early mine at Ross Island that supplied early beaker people in Ireland, Britain and northern France but remained peculiar in that a new type of megalithic tomb, the Wedge Tomb, appeared c. 500 years after megalithic tomb building and use had died out - replaced by pit cremations, henges etc. Ireland's beaker culture is actually rrather later, daring to about 2400BC and the pottery was most like the British-Rhinish group and possibly also NW France. The early trade network of Irish copper and gold in the beaker period seems to have largely been to Britain and northern France with a few strays further east. That may be the best indicator we have of origins and close cousins.

5. After the beaker period Ireland and Britain, especially northern and western Britain, were very closely linked in terms of trade, pottery in burials and most cultural aspects throughout the Bronze Age. In the later Bronze Age c. 13000BC-700bc or so Ireland had a bit of a golden age with a huge amount of impressive bronze and gold objects, hillforts etc. Ireland remained close in its cultures to Britain.

6. The coming of Iron and the consequent loss of importance of Bronze appears to have badly hit the Atlantic elites in places like Ireland. Ireland was especially badly hit and after Hallstatt C it seems to have slipped into isolation and a dark age. New metal types made after 650BC and known on the continent in the Hallstatt D and early La Tene phases are not known in Ireland. This period of isolation is probably why Ireland did not experience the Q to P shift that affected Britain and Gaul. Iberia was also isolated and also did not experience the shift. This does not imply any contact between Ireland and Iberia - not a single Iberian Iron Age object has been found in Ireland - the connection is a myth. This collapse in Ireland was not just at the elite end. The number of domestic sites also collapses in this era, indications of farming through seeds and pollen in bog cores drops away dramatically etc - there was a genuine serious systems collapse and population collapse in Ireland at this time.

7. Something of a minor revival in terms of both external influences in metalwork, occupation sites etc occurs in the later La Tene period although this is much better represented in the northern two thirds of the island. The material is similar to Britian and Gaulish metalwork of c. 300-0bc and domestic sites also resume around 350BC. In this period Ireland has a peculiar culture combining new elite La Tene objects with what look like old revived Bronze Age burial traditions (rare cremations in barrows) and unique royal regional massive sites that look very like the henges of late Neolithic times. Other features are huge linear tribal defensive ditches. Domestic sites are rare and insubstantial indicating perhaps troubled times or very mobile populations. Some British and Gaulish tribes may have entered the island at this time judging by Ptolemy;s map.

8. After a lull during the early Roman occupation of Britain pollen cores indicate a massive expansion of the Irish population despite the fact almost no domestic sites are known. Shortly after Irish raids commenced on Roman Britain and some settlement probably occurred as the Romans left.

9. Christianity came to Ireland through Roman Britons like St. Patrick at the end of the Roman period although Patrick is known to actually have not been the first to come to convert the Irish. It is possible some British immigration to Ireland also occured in this period as so much of the Early Christian material culture is descended from Romano-British types. However the situation is not at all clear. The succeeding period is known as the Early Christian period when the raths and monasteries were built. Isolated from Germanic intrusions Celtic culture survived into the literate period in Ireland, as it also did in Scotland, Wales and western England. This is often seen as Ireland's golden age.

10. The first Germanics to appear in Ireland, assuming the Cauci of Ptolemy's map were not related to the Germanic Chauci, was a couple of raids by the Northumbrian Angles in the later 600s. Howeve, other than monks, the Anglo-Saxons did not settle in Ireland. The Vikings arrived just before 800AS and settled in the decades after. In Ireland the main types of Viking settlements were trading towns and raiding bases - always on the coast or inland bodies of water. They didnt make large rural settlements except in the close vicinity of their towns. They founded the first nucleated fully secular settlements in historic Ireland including the cities of Cork, Dublin, Waterford, Wexford and Limerick and stuck the first coinage in Ireland. They didnt have towns in the northern half of Ireland although they did have a number of military raiding bases there. In the long run after a great shock and much raiding these towns came under the power of the increasingly powerful Irish kings.

11. The Normans took control of much of Ireland except most of Ulster and north Connaught. They went into decline and the area under their control shrank to what was known as the Pale in eastern Ireland. Nevertheless they probably had more of a genetic impact than the Vikings with many Irish surnames having Norman origins.

12. In the plantation of Ulster shortly after 1600, the most native part of Ireland and least effected by the Normans was parceled out to planters who came mostly from lowland Scotland and western England. However only the noble classes were actually removed completely and most ordinary Ulster Irish remained nearby albeit on the poorer lands. Being unnaffected by Viking and Norman settlement followed by sectarian division after the Ulster Plantation probably means that the Ulster native largely Roman Catholic population are probably the least mixed descendants of the pre-Norman Irish.​
 
EXACTLY. The FIRST wave of Irish was probably R1b and no others on the peninsula before, the later arriving middle eastern agriculturalist lineages barely arrived in or genetically affected Ireland at all. The first Irish as many R1b P-312 dominant men (most R1b is P312 in Portugal,Spain,France,Switzerland,Italy; the % of the maes that ARE R1b anyways) MAY have first arrived from northern Spain, but they had been gone for several thousand years by the time they arrived towards Ireland. We're might the first Irish have arrived from? Some speculate a boat trip from northern Spain or Portugal....but the easiest option would be the English Channel; considering the P312 frequencies are so low in the Germany/holland region, they probably didn't cross from there....maybe Belgium? I personally suspect the ancient "Brittany" province of extreme western France to be the region where the first Irish crossed over towards southern England and then to Ireland.its funny because the main L-21 Irish clade found in 65-70% of Irish males I believe (the very youngest branch of P312) is also quite found in England.....and in a high of 20-25% of males from France's, you guessed it, bretagne/Brittany province.....funny because the French also call Great Britain "la grande-Bretagne" (big Brittany)Brittany standing for British.
 
Outside of France's Bretagne sphere though, the L-21 % drops dramatically, and other older subclades of P312 takeover such as P312* basal and u152, for example.
 
EXACTLY. The FIRST wave of Irish was probably R1b and no others on the peninsula before, the later arriving middle eastern agriculturalist lineages barely arrived in or genetically affected Ireland at all. The first Irish as many R1b P-312 dominant men (most R1b is P312 in Portugal,Spain,France,Switzerland,Italy; the % of the maes that ARE R1b anyways) MAY have first arrived from northern Spain, but they had been gone for several thousand years by the time they arrived towards Ireland. We're might the first Irish have arrived from? Some speculate a boat trip from northern Spain or Portugal....but the easiest option would be the English Channel; considering the P312 frequencies are so low in the Germany/holland region, they probably didn't cross from there....maybe Belgium? I personally suspect the ancient "Brittany" province of extreme western France to be the region where the first Irish crossed over towards southern England and then to Ireland.its funny because the main L-21 Irish clade found in 65-70% of Irish males I believe (the very youngest branch of P312) is also quite found in England.....and in a high of 20-25% of males from France's, you guessed it, bretagne/Brittany province.....funny because the French also call Great Britain "la grande-Bretagne" (big Brittany)Brittany standing for British.

I too would have thought from the whole area with modern Belgium in the east to modern Brittany in the west would be the main crossing point. Have to be careful about Brittany though, as it received a lot of immigrants from Britain in the post-Roman period (from whence it gets it's name). Also R1b-L21 merely has to be present (which it is in France and up the Rhine) for there to be a route in, it's likely R1b-L21 became so common within the British Isles for other reasons.
 
The thing is, if the British really had colonized Brittany in the post-roman era wouldn't there be more R1b-S21 in that region as it is quite frequent in English males? Or did the Germanic tribes such as angles,Saxons,Jutes associated with the R1b-U106 migrate from holland/Germany possibly Denmark (certainly the two others) after this migration you speak of?
 
Which means it in fact may be linked to a much earlier population migration
 

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