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View Full Version : Deeper R1b subclade resolution for the Brabant Y-DNA Project (Belgium)



Maciamo
04-10-13, 19:27
The Brabant DNA Project (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25463-Belgian-Y-DNA-from-the-Brabant-Project), with 1000+ members from all Belgium and a few from bordering areas (especially North Brabant in the Netherlands), has re-tested the Y-DNA of all R1b members for the following subclades.

- Under U106: Z18, Z381, L48, and U198
- Under P312: L21/M529 and Z195/Z196
- Under U152: L2 and L20

The new distribution is as follows:

Belgium (n=871 with confirmed Belgian ancestors )

TOTAL R1b : n=524 (60%)

P25 : n=1 (0.1%)
P297 : n=1 (0.1%)
M269 (+ L23) : n=16 (1.8%)
P310/L11 : n=6 (0.7%)

- All U106/S21 : n=218 (25%)
-- U106* : n=15 (1.7%)
-- Z18 : n=18 (2%)
-- Z381 : n=72 (8.3%)
--- U198 : n=9 (1%)
--- L48 : n=104 (11.9%)

- All P312/S116 : n=282 (32.3%)
-- P312* : n=84 (9.6%)
-- L21 : n=78 (8.9%)
-- Z196* : n=27 (3.1%)
-- SRY2627 : n=6 (0.7%)
-- U152* : n=28 (3.2%)
--- L2 : n=46 (5.2%)
---- L20 : n=13 (1.5%)


This is extremely interesting since we have for the first accurate percentage of R1b-L21 for Belgium and it is a bit higher than expected (nearly 9%).

L48 makes up nearly half of all U106 lineages, which is to be expected considering that this is a huge branch with plenty of subclades of its own. It is perhaps more surprising that 8.3% of Z381 are U198- and L48-, which means that they could either belong to the more mysterious Z153 and/or another subclade yet to be identified.

On the U152 side, just above two third of the lineages are L2+, including 15% of L20+. The proportion of L2 to U152 is in the average for northern Europe. This leaves only 3.2% for Z36, Z56 and Z192.

There is still 9.6% of P312 not accounted for. This might include some of the 7 other clades of DF27 beside Z196, which is already at a surprisingly high 3.8%. We can surely expect between 5% and 10% of DF27 in Belgium.

Degredado
04-10-13, 22:00
DF27 should be found at 5-10% in NW Europe as a whole... almost certainly in the Low Countries, the northern coast of France and England.

Fire Haired
04-10-13, 23:19
The 9% L21 is very surprising it definitely is not just in Insular Celts. According to your map is very spread out in western Europe and FTDNA says L21 is estimated as 4,000-5,500 years old same for P312. I think it started to expand in western Europe with Df27 about 3,500-4,500ybp and for some reason was dominate in the Celts that migrated to the British isles. Is there any info of the L21 subclades in conteintal Europe are they very separate from the subclades in the British isles. I bet it can tell if it is from British inter marriage or if it is separate and maybe with age estimates of uniquely British subclades can give an idea when Celts migrated to Britain and Ireland. The L21 in Iceland and Norway definitely in British inter marriage. Isn't L2 the main U152 subclade in Italians and the rest of Europe? On the R1b page there are so many subclades marked as Italo Gaulish could this mean u152 was already developed into subclades before Urnfield culture 3,200ybp which spread it to Italy and then with Hallstat Celts it spread in other parts of Europe. Do you have any opinion on how R1b U106 subclades connect with certain Germanic people like P312 does with Italo Celts.

Fire Haired
04-10-13, 23:20
When you say Belguim ancestors you mean direct male line right?

adamo
04-10-13, 23:29
Many Italians don't have the L2 or L20 mutations on their U-152 line; as you approach places such as Ukraine and Germany, the very vast majority of u152 is L2

adamo
04-10-13, 23:29
So the total u152 levels in Belgium are only of 10%....maybe 35-40% of italian males have the L2 on average I'd say; it isn't frequent everywhere

adamo
04-10-13, 23:41
Ukraine,Hungary,England,Germany, Belgium/holland , Poland the Iberian peninsula; in these regions L2 is always more than 50% of the males that have u152.

adamo
04-10-13, 23:42
Parts of Italy have high L2 as well; Treviso region for example has 80%

Fire Haired
05-10-13, 00:11
So L2 is very popular in Italians and Europeans who get their R1b S28 from Hallstat-La Tene Celts. So L2 had to exist in Urnfield culture about 3,300ybp since it is the source of U152 in Hallstat-La Tene Celts and Italians. This would also mean R1b S28 orignated hundreds maybe 1,000 years before Urnfield culture but it first expanded with Urnfield culture.

Fire Haired
05-10-13, 06:29
I think most of the 9.6% P312* is subclade Df27. So they have 9.9% U152, 8.9% L21, and possibly around 9% totally DF27. Since it only counts U152* since L2 is the only subclde named directly under U152 I guess maybe most of the P312 is U152. BUt still they probably have a pretty good mix of P312 subclades. L21 and Df27 I think are from very early Celtic migrations into western Europe 3,500-4,500ybp the U152 from Urnfield culture then later Celtic Hallstat and La Tene. The U106 obviously from Germanic people. Id dont know that much about the history of Belgium it is pretty close to the ancient center of the Germanic world. Also isn't it named after Gaulish tribe Belgie who were one of the last conquered by Ceasar because they were so far north and I Ceasar said were the bravest Gauls because the were farthest away from luxuries of civilization. Is it possibly the Beglie were a Germanic tribe or mixed Gaulish and Germanic. I know that Ceasar said the Germans and Gauls had been fighting a lot and that the Gauls used to be very powerful and beat the Germans but when he came were used to getting beat up by Germanic tribes who were taking Gaulish land. Its a possibility they were Germans or German Gaul mix.

MOESAN
12-10-13, 17:55
I' think Y-R1b-U106 came from a well geographically separate L11 group more northern than the L11 father of P312-L11 descendants - or the two P312 and U106 were born more North-East we thought but in small number and after separation (orth the Carpathians? in Ukraina?) a drift occurred among the two, but I prefer the first hypothesis, P312 group moving more South in Europe... nothing sure, but it is a pattern -
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