I2a2b in Greece: Native or Slavic

Do Greeks with I2a2b descend from Slavic invaders or is it a native haplogroup?

Don't you mean I2a1b M453 the name changed. I think it is from natives and definitely not Slavic invaders. Maybe you can say Thracian, Dacian, Illyrian ancient ethnic groups of that area Slavic languages did not spread in southeastern Europe till the middle ages. I think it has been in Greece since before any of those ethnic groups formed but at some point it had to migrate south into Greece. Maciamo seems to argue as recent of an origin of all Y DNA so he try's to give Indo European origins for the spread of I2a1b which I doubt and I2a1b3(non eastern European subclade). You should look at Eupedia's I2 page. I really don't like how Maciamo words things were he says I2a1b is overwhelmingly in Slavic countries I think he knows that will give the worng idea no way does that mean it has a Slavic origin. And he says it concentration around Romania and Ukraine reminds of the maximum spread of a Neolithic and I guess early copper age culture. And then says it might mean they were descended from hunter gathers that adopted farming. it is so much more complicated than that and just because Y DNA is popular in a certain area a pre historic culture existed does not mean that culture spread it and distribution of Y DNa has changed so much since the Neolithic mainly because of Indo Europeans and It seems Maciamo doesn't consider that. I2a1b could have been just about as popular in Poland as it is in Serbia today unless it was spread to Poland later.

Maciamo takes random ancient ethnic groups of southeast Europe and just says they spread I2a1b. Wouldn't it make more sense it was already there why would Indo Europeans spread native y DNA more than the natives did. And he trys to connect Slavic migrations in the middle ages from north of Dinaric area. That makes no sense I2a1b is much much more popular in southeast Europeans and it is very pre Slavic. I have seen Maciamo on his Y DNA pages say stuff that will confuse people who don't know anything about Genetics'. He takes 4 y DNA samples from Magdalenian Spain and uses it as this big evidence of genetic continuity with modern Iberians to argue E1b1b M123 in Iberia Is pre Neolithic. when he talks about certain y DNa haplogroups and associates them with an ancient people he will say well their descendants are mainly found in Basque or whoever. That tricks people what he should say is the Haplogroup associated with them is more popular in Basque.

JQP4545 said:

Do Greeks with I2a2b descend from Slavic invaders or is it a native haplogroup?

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I'd say that haplogroup I in general is Native European. The Grevitan Culture might have brought up Haplogroup I as haplogroup IJ and the J evolved out of the equation after generations and according to this link the most advanced information there is is that I2a2B came from Central Europe. Sources: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml http://www.clanstrachan.org/freespace/I_info.htm

JQP4545 said:

Do Greeks with I2a2b descend from Slavic invaders or is it a native haplogroup?

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It is neither. I suppose that you mean I2a1b (M423) since I2a2b (L38) is a rare Central European haplogroup, which is almost inexistent in Greece.

Anyhow, I2-M423 emerged during the Neolithic, probably as a group of Carpathian hunter-gatherers who adopted agriculture. They were absorbed by the Proto-Indo-European R1a people of the Corded Ware culture and became the Dacians, Thracians and Illyrians (who were IE but not Slavic). I believe that I2-M423 spread to Greece during the Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman periods, when Thracians, Illyrians and Greeks lived together in peace within the borders of a same empire for nearly 2000 years. There was probably not a single major migration or invasion that brought I2-M423 to Greece. Just progressive shift from neighbouring populations for two millennia.

This question actually has multiple dimensions to it, and the answer, based on what we know, could be "neither" (as Maciamo posits), "Slavic," or even "both." Let me explain.

Haplogroup I as a whole is often associated with an introduction to Europe via Gravettian culture. Although in no way proven, this hypothesis fits the molecular diversity and phylogenetic patterns of Haplogroup I well. The region of modern Greece seems to have a spotty connection to the Gravettian, making it a possibility that an ancestor of the modern Greek Haplogroup I passed through Greece a long time ago. It's also possible that Greece was bypassed, so it's not clear if it's "native" in that sense.

On the other hand, the specific Haplogroup I subclade most common in Greece ("I2a-Din") is a rather young subclade with its closest cousins to the west, its most ancient known branch in Poland, the greatest diversity of its largest group around Ukraine, and its highest frequency in South Slavic countries. All of these point to a relatively recent introduction from north of Greece, and before that from west of that. Many (Verenich, Nordtvedt, etc.) have pointed out that this corresponds well with the Slavs, and I'm inclined to agree that that is the best match, although Maciamo and others have given reasonable arguments for another population or migration. Either way, though, it doesn't look "native" Greek from this perspective, leading to the question of: how did it get to its current frequency in Greece? I think the easiest explanation is as Maciamo says: "progressive shift from neighbouring populations." Keep in mind that Greece was for many years part of the same political unit as its South Slavic neighbors, which have I2a-Din in extreme concentrations. Introduction into Greece was inevitable.

So, is it native? Maybe, in a sense. Is it Slavic? Quite possibly, although it's also possible that it is not.

Interesting comment on hg I2a; The men of the South-Slavic populations of the Balkans are genetically from the Balkan refuge with high frequencies of Haplogroup I1b1-P37, but linguistically they are from the Slavic group. In this case, the Balkan populations (whatever their original language) seem to have shifted their original language to a Slavic one. A strong indication of languages shifts is offered by the existence of the ”Balkan Sprachbund” consisting of a number of languages with unrelated vocabularies, but with similar grammatical and phonological features.

What this geneticist is attempting to say is that I2a is indigenous to the Balkans, arriving from turkey and staying in the Bosnian refuge during the LGM. Let's take Croatia, for example. Many Croatian men are I2a1; their ancestors arrived from the nearby Bosnia-Herzegovina region most probably. Whereas those 35% of Croatian men that are R1a, arrived from the Ukrainian refuge through Hungary to Croatia and adjoining Slovenia...other R1a countries further towards Central Europe are the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland. Poland has 55-65% R1a on a national level (more towards 65%), Slovenia has 40%, Czech Republic 40-45%, Hungary's frequencies are being discovered as quite high actually Slovakia has 40-50%, Croatia is not a Slavic country per say, but Croatia and Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, Albania Macedonia; most of these countries have A Slavic genetic minority among them. These men that are R1b in Croatia arrived from Iberia far to the west.

I honestly doubt the men of hg I came "hand in hand" with the R1 indo-Europeans; two separate migrations from different regions. It is evident though, that at one point or another, these hg's may have migrated around as they adopted their positions (people) within modern national frontiers.

sparkey said:

This question actually has multiple dimensions to it, and the answer, based on what we know, could be "neither" (as Maciamo posits), "Slavic," or even "both." Let me explain.

Haplogroup I as a whole is often associated with an introduction to Europe via Gravettian culture. Although in no way proven, this hypothesis fits the molecular diversity and phylogenetic patterns of Haplogroup I well. The region of modern Greece seems to have a spotty connection to the Gravettian, making it a possibility that an ancestor of the modern Greek Haplogroup I passed through Greece a long time ago. It's also possible that Greece was bypassed, so it's not clear if it's "native" in that sense.

On the other hand, the specific Haplogroup I subclade most common in Greece ("I2a-Din") is a rather young subclade with its closest cousins to the west, its most ancient known branch in Poland, the greatest diversity of its largest group around Ukraine, and its highest frequency in South Slavic countries. All of these point to a relatively recent introduction from north of Greece, and before that from west of that. Many (Verenich, Nordtvedt, etc.) have pointed out that this corresponds well with the Slavs, and I'm inclined to agree that that is the best match, although Maciamo and others have given reasonable arguments for another population or migration. Either way, though, it doesn't look "native" Greek from this perspective, leading to the question of: how did it get to its current frequency in Greece? I think the easiest explanation is as Maciamo says: "progressive shift from neighbouring populations." Keep in mind that Greece was for many years part of the same political unit as its South Slavic neighbors, which have I2a-Din in extreme concentrations. Introduction into Greece was inevitable.

So, is it native? Maybe, in a sense. Is it Slavic? Quite possibly, although it's also possible that it is not.

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Sparkey, I would like to support your point of view with some historical facts:

1. Vast teritory of what is now Greece was in 7th century settled with various slavic tribes. It is clearly visible in following map:


2. Some of them have gone so south to Peloponesus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melingoi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezeritai
It very well corespond, together with Tessaly and Macedonia with nowadays distribution of haplogroup I2 M423 Dinaric in Greece

3. Slavic character of that specific branch of haplogroup I (I2 M423 Dinaric) is so logical that I don't see a single argument opposite. Definitely I can not understand claims that I2 M423 Dinaric is Dacian, Thracian and Illyrian, since the percentage of this branch in Italy is less than 0,5 % and in rest Europe west of Rhine and Alps less than that. If some population have lived in Roman Empire in common state with the residents of Italy for so long, as it is case for Illyrians, don't you think that they should leave some more than 0,5 % percent of genetic trace in Italy, especially if we know that connection of two coastes of Adriatic were much more intensive in Roman times than it was case in the Middle Ages.

4. There is no such clear marker for one haplogroup and population as it is case with I2 M423 Dinaric and Slavs.
Just compare following two maps:



and

There is something suspicious about this haplogroup. For starters, it seems to be in as high percentages in Western Turkey, Crete and Cyprus as it is in Greece (around 8%). Are we to assume that I2a in Western Turkey, Crete and Cyprus is distributed there exclusively during Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman periods? It seems unlikely that these amounts could have spread so easily over the Mediterranean. Also, I2a seems to be present in Southern Italy as well at around 3.5 %. If we would assume that some of it has been brought there by Ancient Greek colonizers, then we can say that the Ancient Greeks had it at around 3,5 to 6%. Which is not very far off from the Greek mainland, Crete, Cyprus and Western Turkey.

I would say that I2a is an old Balkanic haplogroup which was already spread in Ancient Greece, but may have increased over time.
It would be interesting to see to what extent Pontian Greeks have this haplogroup in them. Since they, like Cypriot Greeks, lived in a region relatively far away from Greece.

Dianatomia said:

There is something suspicious about this haplogroup. For starters, it seems to be in as high percentages in Western Turkey, Crete and Cyprus as it is in Greece (around 8%). Are we to assume that I2a in Western Turkey, Crete and Cyprus is distributed there exclusively during Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman periods? It seems unlikely that these amounts could have spread so easily over the Mediterranean. Also, I2a seems to be present in Southern Italy as well at around 3.5 %. If we would assume that some of it has been brought there by Ancient Greek colonizers, then we can say that the Ancient Greeks had it at around 3,5 to 6%. Which is not very far off from the Greek mainland, Crete, Cyprus and Western Turkey.

I would say that I2a is an old Balkanic haplogroup which was already spread in Ancient Greece, but may have increased over time.
It would be interesting to see to what extent Pontian Greeks have this haplogroup in them. Since they, like Cypriot Greeks, lived in a region relatively far away from Greece.

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Correction: Haplogroup I on Crete is of a different subclade than in the rest of Greece (I2*-B like Armenia instead of I2a-Din like the Balkans).

Dianatomia said:

For starters, it seems to be in as high percentages in Western Turkey, Crete and Cyprus as it is in Greece (around 8%).

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Are you sure you have the subclades right here? I don't have a study handy for Turkey or Cyprus, but per King 2007, "the variety of haplogroup I in Crete is I2-M438* rather than I2a-P37 which predominates in the Balkans." Specifically, they give 5.7% for I2-M438* and 1.6% for I2a-P37. That means that Crete has nowhere near the I2a-Din levels of mainland Greece; more like less than a quarter of it. Although Cretan participation in online DNA projects is rare, the few samples we have indicate that the more refined subclade of their "I2-M438*" is mainly I2c-B L596*. Turkey as a whole has higher I2c-B L596* than I2a-Din as well IIRC.

Sincerely, I'm a bit confused by some posts – I should agree for the apparently good analysis of Sparkey even if the Maciamo's is not bad at all – let's consider the Y-I2a1b and its ancestors in Europe, roughly speaking:
a) it seems there were no dense human implatation in the so called «bosniak refugium» during the LGM – b) the only reasonable densities of population during LGM and later in these regions were Moravia, S-Slovakia and Carpathians: maybe these facts are the result of weak archeologic activities in Yugoslavia but... c) this haplogroup shows (showed? It moves so quickly!) a big enough variety too in current Czechoslovakia – d) present densities are in the westernmost parts of Dalmatia, as a whole around Bosnia, not farther in East or North, but not with too great variance even if greater than among today Slavs (all what I say is according to vulgarisation of scientists works because I don't know by myself) – so, waiting more ancient DNA:
I see this HG born in east-central Europe: the easternmost part (Carpathians) was involded (as says Maciamo, I believe) in the big transformations (cultural, economical, political) that concerned East-Balkans and Carpathians: agriculture, then metals, and Y-I2a1(b) was spred as by slow osmose than by human groups into western Ukraina and S-Poland, in a region which became the Slavic cradle but not only– theslavs I2a1b is not too «rich» for variance, so we can imagine a baby boom in a population, at what time? I don't know: Starcevo? Cucuteni-Tripolje? Slavic first times??? the three???
surely the first Y-I2a1(b) to reach Greece did it before the slavic invasions, before I-Eans? Not sure – sure Thracians and Dacians had a bit of it, but as I think, not so much (I suppose Y-E1b1-V13 was strong among them if not their previous HG, and Y-J2 too: hard to be sure of anything here – but I think Slavs carried a huge amount of Y-I2a1b into western and southern Balkans, aside Y-R1a – it remains the western part of this region: it would be very possible some of the dalmatian-croatian Y-I2a1b came at Bronze or Iron times from North, it's to say: central Europe, without slavic language: (kind of Veneti? Veneti+Illyrians??? I don't know for now) we need more deep SNPs surveys for detailed regions to make an opinion for sure, and what would be better, more ancient DNA
as you I wait...

sparkey said:

Are you sure you have the subclades right here? I don't have a study handy for Turkey or Cyprus, but per King 2007, "the variety of haplogroup I in Crete is I2-M438* rather than I2a-P37 which predominates in the Balkans." Specifically, they give 5.7% for I2-M438* and 1.6% for I2a-P37. That means that Crete has nowhere near the I2a-Din levels of mainland Greece; more like less than a quarter of it. Although Cretan participation in online DNA projects is rare, the few samples we have indicate that the more refined subclade of their "I2-M438*" is mainly I2c-B L596*. Turkey as a whole has higher I2c-B L596* than I2a-Din as well IIRC.

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Yes, that's alright. The level of I2a-Din in Crete seems to be much lower compared to mainland Greeks. Although Crete is a different case altogether. They also differ from the mainland Greeks, Cypriots and the remaining Islanders in the amount of E-V13 which in some cases almost 1/3 of the amount which can be detected in mainland Greece.

If we would have more info about this haplogroup in Cypriots and Pontian Greeks we can shed more light whether it was present - at least to some extent - in Greek populations prior to the classical era or was absorbed by the Greeks later.

iapodos said:

Sparkey, I would like to support your point of view with some historical facts:

1. Vast teritory of what is now Greece was in 7th century settled with various slavic tribes. It is clearly visible in following map:

View attachment 6049
2. Some of them have gone so south to Peloponesus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melingoi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezeritai
It very well corespond, together with Tessaly and Macedonia with nowadays distribution of haplogroup I2 M423 Dinaric in Greece

3. Slavic character of that specific branch of haplogroup I (I2 M423 Dinaric) is so logical that I don't see a single argument opposite. Definitely I can not understand claims that I2 M423 Dinaric is Dacian, Thracian and Illyrian, since the percentage of this branch in Italy is less than 0,5 % and in rest Europe west of Rhine and Alps less than that. If some population have lived in Roman Empire in common state with the residents of Italy for so long, as it is case for Illyrians, don't you think that they should leave some more than 0,5 % percent of genetic trace in Italy, especially if we know that connection of two coastes of Adriatic were much more intensive in Roman times than it was case in the Middle Ages.

4. There is no such clear marker for one haplogroup and population as it is case with I2 M423 Dinaric and Slavs.
Just compare following two maps:

and

Click to expand...

Pretty much you summed it up.

I2a1b is clearly connected with Slavic invasion and isn't native in Balkans.

There were already theories alike. " Pliny the Elder mentions Sarmathian nations of Serboi and Harauata ( assumed to be Serbs and Croats) - they are not Slavic , they just took Slavic languagues".

Eldritch said:

Pretty much you summed it up.

I2a1b is clearly connected with Slavic invasion and isn't native in Balkans.

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Perhaps, but it doesn't mean it is at its core Slavic. Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, and Russians barely have any. If Slavs brought it, they mixed with some other group in Moldova/Western Ukraine, and then they brought into the Western Balkans.

Its Slavic. In north of Greece the population is either slav (speaking today's version of Macedonian), or Albanian, or Bullgarian in Thracian region. I2a is also high in southern Albania, and is a result of Bullgarian settlements in 8th and 9th centuary. The region of Epirus is an Albanian orthodox comunity land which was given by 19th centuary great powers to please Greece. So geneticaly its population is Albanian. What appears to be regional is I2b. Probably 6% in southern Albania. German historian Fallmerayer in 19th centuary made it clear that today's Greeks are a melange of Albanians, Turks, Slavs and Hellens. Real Hellens reside in Crete and Islands. They are very low in I2a. The amount they have is a result a recent migrations from continental Greece to the Islands. Had Greeks been a homogenous people they would look like albanians in Kosovo and Albania. Albania proper differ a bit in I2a which as I mentioned before are slavic settlements,.

albanopolis said:

Its Slavic. In north of Greece the population is either slav (speaking today's version of Macedonian), or Albanian, or Bullgarian in Thracian region. I2a is also high in southern Albania, and is a result of Bullgarian settlements in 8th and 9th centuary. The region of Epirus is an Albanian orthodox comunity land which was given by 19th centuary great powers to please Greece. So geneticaly its population is Albanian. What appears to be regional is I2b. Probably 6% in southern Albania. German historian Fallmerayer in 19th centuary made it clear that today's Greeks are a melange of Albanians, Turks, Slavs and Hellens. Real Hellens reside in Crete and Islands. They are very low in I2a. The amount they have is a result a recent migrations from continental Greece to the Islands. Had Greeks been a homogenous people they would look like albanians in Kosovo and Albania. Albania proper differ a bit in I2a which as I mentioned before are slavic settlements,.

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If you are talking about the marker which is I2a2b which is I-L38 , then this is alpine celt marker ( la tene) , mostly in Germany and England. If any of ths marker is in the balkans or Greece it must be from celtic absorption of illyrian tribes or the failed celtic conquest of Greece...before the Romans arrived.

If you are talking about I2a1b, then this arrived from the cimmerians around 700BC who lived in the black sea area and there thrown out by the Sycthians . You should find some of this marker next to the kurds as one group of cimmerians settled in cappodacia in Anatolian.

Never heard of a slavic marker which is I group....only slavic marker I know is R-Z280 ...........your not talking about linguistic association are you!!!

Why do slavic people ALWAYS start history after the fall of the Roman Empire?

albanopolis said:

Its Slavic. In north of Greece the population is either slav (speaking today's version of Macedonian), or Albanian, or Bullgarian in Thracian region. I2a is also high in southern Albania, and is a result of Bullgarian settlements in 8th and 9th centuary. The region of Epirus is an Albanian orthodox comunity land which was given by 19th centuary great powers to please Greece. So geneticaly its population is Albanian. What appears to be regional is I2b. Probably 6% in southern Albania. German historian Fallmerayer in 19th centuary made it clear that today's Greeks are a melange of Albanians, Turks, Slavs and Hellens. Real Hellens reside in Crete and Islands. They are very low in I2a. The amount they have is a result a recent migrations from continental Greece to the Islands. Had Greeks been a homogenous people they would look like albanians in Kosovo and Albania. Albania proper differ a bit in I2a which as I mentioned before are slavic settlements,.

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The level of I2a in Greece proper, aside from Greek Macedonia, is even at lower levels than in Albania. Overall, Greece has the lowest levels I2a in the Balkans. So even if it is a newly introduced strain in the Greek population, it is at very modest levels to say the least. Even Greek Macedonia has lower levels of I2a than any Slavic speaking country. Unlike other peoples in the Balkans, Greeks have inhabited various geographic localities since ancient times: Asia Minor, Alexandria, Cyprus, Black Sea, the Aegean, the Ioanian, Pelopponesse, the Greek mainland. Yet by and large they essentially share the same origin.

As for I2a. I think it has been around in the Balkans since pre-classical times. It may have been in classical Greece, especially in the north, but in lower levels compared to today. Later when the Slavs came, some of the I2a may have been displaced and went South towards Greece. After that, the Slavs (mostly R1a) migrated to the Balkans and absorbed a lot of I2a people. A portion of those Slavs which by now were mostly I2a people descended towards Greece adding some more I2a in the region, especially in the North of Greece.