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JQP4545
06-10-13, 22:06
Do Greeks with I2a2b descend from Slavic invaders or is it a native haplogroup?

Fire Haired
07-10-13, 00:56
Don't you mean I2a1b M453 the name changed. I think it is from natives and definitely not Slavic invaders. Maybe you can say Thracian, Dacian, Illyrian ancient ethnic groups of that area Slavic languages did not spread in southeastern Europe till the middle ages. I think it has been in Greece since before any of those ethnic groups formed but at some point it had to migrate south into Greece. Maciamo seems to argue as recent of an origin of all Y DNA so he try's to give Indo European origins for the spread of I2a1b which I doubt and I2a1b3(non eastern European subclade). You should look at Eupedia's I2 page. I really don't like how Maciamo words things were he says I2a1b is overwhelmingly in Slavic countries I think he knows that will give the worng idea no way does that mean it has a Slavic origin. And he says it concentration around Romania and Ukraine reminds of the maximum spread of a Neolithic and I guess early copper age culture. And then says it might mean they were descended from hunter gathers that adopted farming. it is so much more complicated than that and just because Y DNA is popular in a certain area a pre historic culture existed does not mean that culture spread it and distribution of Y DNa has changed so much since the Neolithic mainly because of Indo Europeans and It seems Maciamo doesn't consider that. I2a1b could have been just about as popular in Poland as it is in Serbia today unless it was spread to Poland later.

Maciamo takes random ancient ethnic groups of southeast Europe and just says they spread I2a1b. Wouldn't it make more sense it was already there why would Indo Europeans spread native y DNA more than the natives did. And he trys to connect Slavic migrations in the middle ages from north of Dinaric area. That makes no sense I2a1b is much much more popular in southeast Europeans and it is very pre Slavic. I have seen Maciamo on his Y DNA pages say stuff that will confuse people who don't know anything about Genetics'. He takes 4 y DNA samples from Magdalenian Spain and uses it as this big evidence of genetic continuity with modern Iberians to argue E1b1b M123 in Iberia Is pre Neolithic. when he talks about certain y DNa haplogroups and associates them with an ancient people he will say well their descendants are mainly found in Basque or whoever. That tricks people what he should say is the Haplogroup associated with them is more popular in Basque.

Twilight
07-10-13, 01:46
Do Greeks with I2a2b descend from Slavic invaders or is it a native haplogroup? I'd say that haplogroup I in general is Native European. The Grevitan Culture might have brought up Haplogroup I as haplogroup IJ and the J evolved out of the equation after generations and according to this link the most advanced information there is is that I2a2B came from Central Europe. Sources: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml http://www.clanstrachan.org/freespace/I_info.htm

Maciamo
07-10-13, 14:07
Do Greeks with I2a2b descend from Slavic invaders or is it a native haplogroup?

It is neither. I suppose that you mean I2a1b (M423) since I2a2b (L38) is a rare Central European haplogroup, which is almost inexistent in Greece.

Anyhow, I2-M423 emerged during the Neolithic, probably as a group of Carpathian hunter-gatherers who adopted agriculture. They were absorbed by the Proto-Indo-European R1a people of the Corded Ware culture and became the Dacians, Thracians and Illyrians (who were IE but not Slavic). I believe that I2-M423 spread to Greece during the Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman periods, when Thracians, Illyrians and Greeks lived together in peace within the borders of a same empire for nearly 2000 years. There was probably not a single major migration or invasion that brought I2-M423 to Greece. Just progressive shift from neighbouring populations for two millennia.

sparkey
07-10-13, 18:25
This question actually has multiple dimensions to it, and the answer, based on what we know, could be "neither" (as Maciamo posits), "Slavic," or even "both." Let me explain.

Haplogroup I as a whole is often associated with an introduction to Europe via Gravettian culture. Although in no way proven, this hypothesis fits the molecular diversity and phylogenetic patterns of Haplogroup I well. The region of modern Greece seems to have a spotty connection to the Gravettian (http://paleo.revues.org/579), making it a possibility that an ancestor of the modern Greek Haplogroup I passed through Greece a long time ago. It's also possible that Greece was bypassed, so it's not clear if it's "native" in that sense.

On the other hand, the specific Haplogroup I subclade most common in Greece ("I2a-Din") is a rather young subclade with its closest cousins to the west, its most ancient known branch in Poland, the greatest diversity of its largest group around Ukraine, and its highest frequency in South Slavic countries. All of these point to a relatively recent introduction from north of Greece, and before that from west of that. Many (Verenich, Nordtvedt, etc.) have pointed out that this corresponds well with the Slavs, and I'm inclined to agree that that is the best match, although Maciamo and others have given reasonable arguments for another population or migration. Either way, though, it doesn't look "native" Greek from this perspective, leading to the question of: how did it get to its current frequency in Greece? I think the easiest explanation is as Maciamo says: "progressive shift from neighbouring populations." Keep in mind that Greece was for many years part of the same political unit as its South Slavic neighbors, which have I2a-Din in extreme concentrations. Introduction into Greece was inevitable.

So, is it native? Maybe, in a sense. Is it Slavic? Quite possibly, although it's also possible that it is not.

adamo
17-10-13, 14:46
Interesting comment on hg I2a; The men of the South-Slavic populations of the Balkans are genetically from the Balkan refuge with high frequencies of Haplogroup I1b1-P37, but linguistically they are from the Slavic group. In this case, the Balkan populations (whatever their original language) seem to have shifted their original language to a Slavic one. A strong indication of languages shifts is offered by the existence of the ”Balkan Sprachbund” consisting of a number of languages with unrelated vocabularies, but with similar grammatical and phonological features.

adamo
17-10-13, 14:52
What this geneticist is attempting to say is that I2a is indigenous to the Balkans, arriving from turkey and staying in the Bosnian refuge during the LGM. Let's take Croatia, for example. Many Croatian men are I2a1; their ancestors arrived from the nearby Bosnia-Herzegovina region most probably. Whereas those 35% of Croatian men that are R1a, arrived from the Ukrainian refuge through Hungary to Croatia and adjoining Slovenia...other R1a countries further towards Central Europe are the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland. Poland has 55-65% R1a on a national level (more towards 65%), Slovenia has 40%, Czech Republic 40-45%, Hungary's frequencies are being discovered as quite high actually Slovakia has 40-50%, Croatia is not a Slavic country per say, but Croatia and Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, Albania Macedonia; most of these countries have A Slavic genetic minority among them. These men that are R1b in Croatia arrived from Iberia far to the west.

adamo
17-10-13, 14:55
I honestly doubt the men of hg I came "hand in hand" with the R1 indo-Europeans; two separate migrations from different regions. It is evident though, that at one point or another, these hg's may have migrated around as they adopted their positions (people) within modern national frontiers.

iapodos
17-10-13, 15:45
This question actually has multiple dimensions to it, and the answer, based on what we know, could be "neither" (as Maciamo posits), "Slavic," or even "both." Let me explain.

Haplogroup I as a whole is often associated with an introduction to Europe via Gravettian culture. Although in no way proven, this hypothesis fits the molecular diversity and phylogenetic patterns of Haplogroup I well. The region of modern Greece seems to have a spotty connection to the Gravettian (http://paleo.revues.org/579), making it a possibility that an ancestor of the modern Greek Haplogroup I passed through Greece a long time ago. It's also possible that Greece was bypassed, so it's not clear if it's "native" in that sense.

On the other hand, the specific Haplogroup I subclade most common in Greece ("I2a-Din") is a rather young subclade with its closest cousins to the west, its most ancient known branch in Poland, the greatest diversity of its largest group around Ukraine, and its highest frequency in South Slavic countries. All of these point to a relatively recent introduction from north of Greece, and before that from west of that. Many (Verenich, Nordtvedt, etc.) have pointed out that this corresponds well with the Slavs, and I'm inclined to agree that that is the best match, although Maciamo and others have given reasonable arguments for another population or migration. Either way, though, it doesn't look "native" Greek from this perspective, leading to the question of: how did it get to its current frequency in Greece? I think the easiest explanation is as Maciamo says: "progressive shift from neighbouring populations." Keep in mind that Greece was for many years part of the same political unit as its South Slavic neighbors, which have I2a-Din in extreme concentrations. Introduction into Greece was inevitable.

So, is it native? Maybe, in a sense. Is it Slavic? Quite possibly, although it's also possible that it is not.

Sparkey, I would like to support your point of view with some historical facts:

1. Vast teritory of what is now Greece was in 7th century settled with various slavic tribes. It is clearly visible in following map:

6049
2. Some of them have gone so south to Peloponesus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melingoi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezeritai
It very well corespond, together with Tessaly and Macedonia with nowadays distribution of haplogroup I2 M423 Dinaric in Greece

3. Slavic character of that specific branch of haplogroup I (I2 M423 Dinaric) is so logical that I don't see a single argument opposite. Definitely I can not understand claims that I2 M423 Dinaric is Dacian, Thracian and Illyrian, since the percentage of this branch in Italy is less than 0,5 % and in rest Europe west of Rhine and Alps less than that. If some population have lived in Roman Empire in common state with the residents of Italy for so long, as it is case for Illyrians, don't you think that they should leave some more than 0,5 % percent of genetic trace in Italy, especially if we know that connection of two coastes of Adriatic were much more intensive in Roman times than it was case in the Middle Ages.

4. There is no such clear marker for one haplogroup and population as it is case with I2 M423 Dinaric and Slavs.
Just compare following two maps:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Bulgarians_and_Slavs_VI-VII_century.png


and

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/HaplogroupI2.png

Dianatomia
17-10-13, 16:44
There is something suspicious about this haplogroup. For starters, it seems to be in as high percentages in Western Turkey, Crete and Cyprus as it is in Greece (around 8%). Are we to assume that I2a in Western Turkey, Crete and Cyprus is distributed there exclusively during Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman periods? It seems unlikely that these amounts could have spread so easily over the Mediterranean. Also, I2a seems to be present in Southern Italy as well at around 3.5 %. If we would assume that some of it has been brought there by Ancient Greek colonizers, then we can say that the Ancient Greeks had it at around 3,5 to 6%. Which is not very far off from the Greek mainland, Crete, Cyprus and Western Turkey.

I would say that I2a is an old Balkanic haplogroup which was already spread in Ancient Greece, but may have increased over time.
It would be interesting to see to what extent Pontian Greeks have this haplogroup in them. Since they, like Cypriot Greeks, lived in a region relatively far away from Greece.

Dianatomia
17-10-13, 16:54
There is something suspicious about this haplogroup. For starters, it seems to be in as high percentages in Western Turkey, Crete and Cyprus as it is in Greece (around 8%). Are we to assume that I2a in Western Turkey, Crete and Cyprus is distributed there exclusively during Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman periods? It seems unlikely that these amounts could have spread so easily over the Mediterranean. Also, I2a seems to be present in Southern Italy as well at around 3.5 %. If we would assume that some of it has been brought there by Ancient Greek colonizers, then we can say that the Ancient Greeks had it at around 3,5 to 6%. Which is not very far off from the Greek mainland, Crete, Cyprus and Western Turkey.

I would say that I2a is an old Balkanic haplogroup which was already spread in Ancient Greece, but may have increased over time.
It would be interesting to see to what extent Pontian Greeks have this haplogroup in them. Since they, like Cypriot Greeks, lived in a region relatively far away from Greece.

Correction: Haplogroup I on Crete is of a different subclade than in the rest of Greece (I2*-B like Armenia instead of I2a-Din like the Balkans).

sparkey
17-10-13, 17:01
For starters, it seems to be in as high percentages in Western Turkey, Crete and Cyprus as it is in Greece (around 8%).

Are you sure you have the subclades right here? I don't have a study handy for Turkey or Cyprus, but per King 2007 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2007.00414.x/full), "the variety of haplogroup I in Crete is I2-M438* rather than I2a-P37 which predominates in the Balkans." Specifically, they give 5.7% for I2-M438* and 1.6% for I2a-P37. That means that Crete has nowhere near the I2a-Din levels of mainland Greece; more like less than a quarter of it. Although Cretan participation in online DNA projects is rare, the few samples we have indicate that the more refined subclade of their "I2-M438*" is mainly I2c-B L596*. Turkey as a whole has higher I2c-B L596* than I2a-Din as well IIRC.

MOESAN
17-10-13, 17:42
Sincerely, I'm a bit confused by some posts – I should agree for the apparently good analysis of Sparkey even if the Maciamo's is not bad at all – let's consider the Y-I2a1b and its ancestors in Europe, roughly speaking:
a) it seems there were no dense human implatation in the so called «bosniak refugium» during the LGM – b) the only reasonable densities of population during LGM and later in these regions were Moravia, S-Slovakia and Carpathians: maybe these facts are the result of weak archeologic activities in Yugoslavia but... c) this haplogroup shows (showed? It moves so quickly!) a big enough variety too in current Czechoslovakia – d) present densities are in the westernmost parts of Dalmatia, as a whole around Bosnia, not farther in East or North, but not with too great variance even if greater than among today Slavs (all what I say is according to vulgarisation of scientists works because I don't know by myself) – so, waiting more ancient DNA:
I see this HG born in east-central Europe: the easternmost part (Carpathians) was involded (as says Maciamo, I believe) in the big transformations (cultural, economical, political) that concerned East-Balkans and Carpathians: agriculture, then metals, and Y-I2a1(b) was spred as by slow osmose than by human groups into western Ukraina and S-Poland, in a region which became the Slavic cradle but not only– theslavs I2a1b is not too «rich» for variance, so we can imagine a baby boom in a population, at what time? I don't know: Starcevo? Cucuteni-Tripolje? Slavic first times??? the three???
surely the first Y-I2a1(b) to reach Greece did it before the slavic invasions, before I-Eans? Not sure – sure Thracians and Dacians had a bit of it, but as I think, not so much (I suppose Y-E1b1-V13 was strong among them if not their previous HG, and Y-J2 too: hard to be sure of anything here – but I think Slavs carried a huge amount of Y-I2a1b into western and southern Balkans, aside Y-R1a – it remains the western part of this region: it would be very possible some of the dalmatian-croatian Y-I2a1b came at Bronze or Iron times from North, it's to say: central Europe, without slavic language: (kind of Veneti? Veneti+Illyrians??? I don't know for now) we need more deep SNPs surveys for detailed regions to make an opinion for sure, and what would be better, more ancient DNA
as you I wait...

Dianatomia
17-10-13, 18:21
Are you sure you have the subclades right here? I don't have a study handy for Turkey or Cyprus, but per King 2007 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2007.00414.x/full), "the variety of haplogroup I in Crete is I2-M438* rather than I2a-P37 which predominates in the Balkans." Specifically, they give 5.7% for I2-M438* and 1.6% for I2a-P37. That means that Crete has nowhere near the I2a-Din levels of mainland Greece; more like less than a quarter of it. Although Cretan participation in online DNA projects is rare, the few samples we have indicate that the more refined subclade of their "I2-M438*" is mainly I2c-B L596*. Turkey as a whole has higher I2c-B L596* than I2a-Din as well IIRC.

Yes, that's alright. The level of I2a-Din in Crete seems to be much lower compared to mainland Greeks. Although Crete is a different case altogether. They also differ from the mainland Greeks, Cypriots and the remaining Islanders in the amount of E-V13 which in some cases almost 1/3 of the amount which can be detected in mainland Greece.

If we would have more info about this haplogroup in Cypriots and Pontian Greeks we can shed more light whether it was present - at least to some extent - in Greek populations prior to the classical era or was absorbed by the Greeks later.

Eldritch
17-10-13, 19:39
Sparkey, I would like to support your point of view with some historical facts:

1. Vast teritory of what is now Greece was in 7th century settled with various slavic tribes. It is clearly visible in following map:

6049
2. Some of them have gone so south to Peloponesus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melingoi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezeritai
It very well corespond, together with Tessaly and Macedonia with nowadays distribution of haplogroup I2 M423 Dinaric in Greece

3. Slavic character of that specific branch of haplogroup I (I2 M423 Dinaric) is so logical that I don't see a single argument opposite. Definitely I can not understand claims that I2 M423 Dinaric is Dacian, Thracian and Illyrian, since the percentage of this branch in Italy is less than 0,5 % and in rest Europe west of Rhine and Alps less than that. If some population have lived in Roman Empire in common state with the residents of Italy for so long, as it is case for Illyrians, don't you think that they should leave some more than 0,5 % percent of genetic trace in Italy, especially if we know that connection of two coastes of Adriatic were much more intensive in Roman times than it was case in the Middle Ages.

4. There is no such clear marker for one haplogroup and population as it is case with I2 M423 Dinaric and Slavs.
Just compare following two maps:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Bulgarians_and_Slavs_VI-VII_century.png


and

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/HaplogroupI2.png
Pretty much you summed it up.

I2a1b is clearly connected with Slavic invasion and isn't native in Balkans.

Ike
17-10-13, 20:35
There were already theories alike. " Pliny the Elder mentions Sarmathian nations of Serboi and Harauata ( assumed to be Serbs and Croats) - they are not Slavic , they just took Slavic languagues".

Templar
18-10-13, 01:57
Pretty much you summed it up.

I2a1b is clearly connected with Slavic invasion and isn't native in Balkans.

Perhaps, but it doesn't mean it is at its core Slavic. Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, and Russians barely have any. If Slavs brought it, they mixed with some other group in Moldova/Western Ukraine, and then they brought into the Western Balkans.

albanopolis
18-10-13, 04:36
Its Slavic. In north of Greece the population is either slav (speaking today's version of Macedonian), or Albanian, or Bullgarian in Thracian region. I2a is also high in southern Albania, and is a result of Bullgarian settlements in 8th and 9th centuary. The region of Epirus is an Albanian orthodox comunity land which was given by 19th centuary great powers to please Greece. So geneticaly its population is Albanian. What appears to be regional is I2b. Probably 6% in southern Albania. German historian Fallmerayer in 19th centuary made it clear that today's Greeks are a melange of Albanians, Turks, Slavs and Hellens. Real Hellens reside in Crete and Islands. They are very low in I2a. The amount they have is a result a recent migrations from continental Greece to the Islands. Had Greeks been a homogenous people they would look like albanians in Kosovo and Albania. Albania proper differ a bit in I2a which as I mentioned before are slavic settlements,.

Sile
18-10-13, 08:19
Its Slavic. In north of Greece the population is either slav (speaking today's version of Macedonian), or Albanian, or Bullgarian in Thracian region. I2a is also high in southern Albania, and is a result of Bullgarian settlements in 8th and 9th centuary. The region of Epirus is an Albanian orthodox comunity land which was given by 19th centuary great powers to please Greece. So geneticaly its population is Albanian. What appears to be regional is I2b. Probably 6% in southern Albania. German historian Fallmerayer in 19th centuary made it clear that today's Greeks are a melange of Albanians, Turks, Slavs and Hellens. Real Hellens reside in Crete and Islands. They are very low in I2a. The amount they have is a result a recent migrations from continental Greece to the Islands. Had Greeks been a homogenous people they would look like albanians in Kosovo and Albania. Albania proper differ a bit in I2a which as I mentioned before are slavic settlements,.

If you are talking about the marker which is I2a2b which is I-L38 , then this is alpine celt marker ( la tene) , mostly in Germany and England. If any of ths marker is in the balkans or Greece it must be from celtic absorption of illyrian tribes or the failed celtic conquest of Greece...before the Romans arrived.

If you are talking about I2a1b, then this arrived from the cimmerians around 700BC who lived in the black sea area and there thrown out by the Sycthians . You should find some of this marker next to the kurds as one group of cimmerians settled in cappodacia in Anatolian.

Never heard of a slavic marker which is I group....only slavic marker I know is R-Z280 ...........your not talking about linguistic association are you!!!

Why do slavic people ALWAYS start history after the fall of the Roman Empire?

Dianatomia
18-10-13, 12:09
Its Slavic. In north of Greece the population is either slav (speaking today's version of Macedonian), or Albanian, or Bullgarian in Thracian region. I2a is also high in southern Albania, and is a result of Bullgarian settlements in 8th and 9th centuary. The region of Epirus is an Albanian orthodox comunity land which was given by 19th centuary great powers to please Greece. So geneticaly its population is Albanian. What appears to be regional is I2b. Probably 6% in southern Albania. German historian Fallmerayer in 19th centuary made it clear that today's Greeks are a melange of Albanians, Turks, Slavs and Hellens. Real Hellens reside in Crete and Islands. They are very low in I2a. The amount they have is a result a recent migrations from continental Greece to the Islands. Had Greeks been a homogenous people they would look like albanians in Kosovo and Albania. Albania proper differ a bit in I2a which as I mentioned before are slavic settlements,.

The level of I2a in Greece proper, aside from Greek Macedonia, is even at lower levels than in Albania. Overall, Greece has the lowest levels I2a in the Balkans. So even if it is a newly introduced strain in the Greek population, it is at very modest levels to say the least. Even Greek Macedonia has lower levels of I2a than any Slavic speaking country. Unlike other peoples in the Balkans, Greeks have inhabited various geographic localities since ancient times: Asia Minor, Alexandria, Cyprus, Black Sea, the Aegean, the Ioanian, Pelopponesse, the Greek mainland. Yet by and large they essentially share the same origin.

As for I2a. I think it has been around in the Balkans since pre-classical times. It may have been in classical Greece, especially in the north, but in lower levels compared to today. Later when the Slavs came, some of the I2a may have been displaced and went South towards Greece. After that, the Slavs (mostly R1a) migrated to the Balkans and absorbed a lot of I2a people. A portion of those Slavs which by now were mostly I2a people descended towards Greece adding some more I2a in the region, especially in the North of Greece.

adamo
18-10-13, 15:28
You'll find that some argue that there is a Slavic "package" of R1a and I2a1 that travelled together, hand in hand.

MOESAN
18-10-13, 21:46
There were already theories alike. " Pliny the Elder mentions Sarmathian nations of Serboi and Harauata ( assumed to be Serbs and Croats) - they are not Slavic , they just took Slavic languagues".

the ehtnic affinity among great ancient tribes (and more yet those of the steppes) were not always well known - some ancients called the Slavs: "Scythian Peasants" at some time, remember it - the today northern Slavs are for a part Y-R1a close cousins of previous baltic qualification for language, I think - the genuine cradle of first Slavs surely contained more Y-I2a1b than did Balts (Slavs: ex North Tripolje part: today Western Ukraina (Galicia/Ruthenia) was inhabited not too long ago by people among whom 'dinaroid' types were influent, this type being very often associated with Y-I2a1b,; I suppose the core of this population was on the Carpathian highlands which cover not only parts of Romania but also parts of Slovakia, W-Ukraina and S-POland, but the plain Slavs already mixed with some of them, had occasion to take lot of them with them on their travel - all the way, what you say can be correct too: Y-I2a1b was infiltred among other I-E or I-Ecized population of present day Moldovia and around : hard to distinguish among all that...

Dalmat
04-11-13, 06:06
the ehtnic affinity among great ancient tribes (and more yet those of the steppes) were not always well known - some ancients called the Slavs: "Scythian Peasants" at some time, remember it - the today northern Slavs are for a part Y-R1a close cousins of previous baltic qualification for language, I think - the genuine cradle of first Slavs surely contained more Y-I2a1b than did Balts (Slavs: ex North Tripolje part: today Western Ukraina (Galicia/Ruthenia) was inhabited not too long ago by people among whom 'dinaroid' types were influent, this type being very often associated with Y-I2a1b,; I suppose the core of this population was on the Carpathian highlands which cover not only parts of Romania but also parts of Slovakia, W-Ukraina and S-POland, but the plain Slavs already mixed with some of them, had occasion to take lot of them with them on their travel - all the way, what you say can be correct too: Y-I2a1b was infiltred among other I-E or I-Ecized population of present day Moldovia and around : hard to distinguish among all that...


our parts were IE way before that, so you cant put all of the IE genetic influence from supposed migration, wich has no archeological backup(there was no cultural shift besides christianity much later on), nor cultural connection, aside few stories written millennia after, also south slavic languages are most archaic slavic languges, and Croatians with Japanese have most maritime terms in the world, which indicates we spent lots of time by the sea.


As for Carpathian-Dinaric connection, culturally it goes long way back in time

from Vučedol culture
6066


to Illyrian

6067


to most of ex YU with Czech and Slovaks , with Hungarians butt in between

Sile
04-11-13, 10:15
to Illyrian

6067


to most of ex YU with Czech and Slovaks , with Hungarians butt in between

where Phrygia is that should be Pelgasians and phrygian should be where the void is in anatolia

adamo
04-11-13, 13:45
I soooooooooooo doubt the Phrygians were I2a

Ike
04-11-13, 16:08
The Phrygians (Phruges or Phryges) were an ancient Indo-European people, initially dwelling in the southern Balkans; according to Herodotus, under the name of Bryges (Briges), changing it to Phruges after their final migration to Anatolia, via the Hellespont. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygians)


The earliest mentions of the Bryges are contained in the historical writings of Herodotus, who relates them to Phrygians, stating that according to the Macedonians, the Bryges "changed their name" to Phryges after migrating into Anatolia, a movement which is thought to have happened between 1200 BC and 800 BC perhaps due to the Bronze Age collapse, particularly the fall of the Hittite Empire and the power vacuum that was created. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryges)


The area has been inhabitied since the Mesolithic era (9000-7000 BC). Early inhabitants probably were the Pelasgians, followed by the Mygdones, who gave their name to the region. The Mygdones may have been a Brigian or Thracian tribe. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mygdones)

Sile
04-11-13, 19:19
The Phrygians (Phruges or Phryges) were an ancient Indo-European people, initially dwelling in the southern Balkans; according to Herodotus, under the name of Bryges (Briges), changing it to Phruges after their final migration to Anatolia, via the Hellespont. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygians)


The earliest mentions of the Bryges are contained in the historical writings of Herodotus, who relates them to Phrygians, stating that according to the Macedonians, the Bryges "changed their name" to Phryges after migrating into Anatolia, a movement which is thought to have happened between 1200 BC and 800 BC perhaps due to the Bronze Age collapse, particularly the fall of the Hittite Empire and the power vacuum that was created. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryges)


The area has been inhabitied since the Mesolithic era (9000-7000 BC). Early inhabitants probably were the Pelasgians, followed by the Mygdones, who gave their name to the region. The Mygdones may have been a Brigian or Thracian tribe. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mygdones)

he was wrong. Below is what scholars go with

The apparent similarity of the Phrygian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_language) to Greek and its dissimilarity with the Anatolian languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages) spoken by most of their neighbors is also taken as support for a European origin of the Phrygians.

Some scholars have theorized that such a migration could have occurred more recently than classical sources suggest, and have sought to fit the Phrygian arrival into a narrative explaining the downfall of the Hittite Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_Empire) and the end of the high Bronze Age in Anatolia.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygia#cite_note-7) According to this recent migration theory, the Phrygians invaded just before or after the collapse of the Hittite Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_Empire) at the beginning of the 12th century BC, filling the political vacuum in central-western Anatolia, and may have been counted among the "Sea Peoples (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples)" that Egyptian records credit with bringing about the Hittite collapse. The so-called Handmade Knobbed Ware found in Western Anatolia during this period has been suggested to be an import connected to this invasion.
However, most scholars reject such a recent Phrygian migration and accept as factual the Iliad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iliad)'s account that the Phrygians were established on the Sakarya River (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakarya_River) before the Trojan War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_War), and thus must have been there during the later stages of the Hittite Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_Empire), and likely earlier. These scholars seek instead to trace the Phrygians' origins among the many nations of western Anatolia who were subject to the Hittites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites).[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygia#cite_note-8) This interpretation also gets support from Greek legends about the founding of Phrygia's main city Gordium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordium) by Gordias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordias) and of Ancyra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancyra) by Midas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midas),[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygia#cite_note-9) which suggest that Gordium and Ancyra were believed to be date from the distant past before the Trojan War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_War). Some scholars dismiss the claim of a Phrygian migration as a mere legend, likely arising from the coincidental similarity of their name to the Bryges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryges).

Herodotus also mentions that in 492 BC, some Thracian Brygoi or Brygians (Greek: Βρύγοι Θρήικες) fell upon the Persian camp by night, wounding Mardonius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mardonius) himself, though he went on with the campaign until he subdued them.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryges#cite_note-8) These Brygoi were later mentioned in Plutarch's Parallel Lives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_Lives), in the Battle of Philippi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Philippi), as camp servants of Brutus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Junius_Brutus).[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryges#cite_note-9) However, modern scholars state that a historical link between them and the original Bryges cannot be established.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryges#cite_note-10)

Ike
04-11-13, 22:52
Always thought they were Balcanic.
Ok. Deal.

adamo
05-11-13, 02:16
There was a colony called Pyrgi off the Tuscan coast and the Phrygians were long mixed up with the Lydians if that gives u any idea.

adamo
05-11-13, 02:17
He was of either "Phrygian or Lydian" origin is what you hear often lol

adamo
05-11-13, 02:18
I've always thought the Phrygians to be a group of expanding armenoids with J2 and R-L23 lineages predominantly. Always classed them as pelasgic, in line with the Lydians.

MOESAN
08-11-13, 00:31
our parts were IE way before that, so you cant put all of the IE genetic influence from supposed migration, wich has no archeological backup(there was no cultural shift besides christianity much later on), nor cultural connection, aside few stories written millennia after, also south slavic languages are most archaic slavic languges, and Croatians with Japanese have most maritime terms in the world, which indicates we spent lots of time by the sea.


As for Carpathian-Dinaric connection, culturally it goes long way back in time


from Vučedol culture
6066


to Illyrian

6067


to most of ex YU with Czech and Slovaks , with Hungarians butt in between

What is your point?
all the way I never said all Y-I2a1b in Balkans are from Slavs - other I-E came before and could have already mixed with some I2 people of the Carpathians-Balkans -
now concerning invasions and immigrations, archeology does not always show evident traces - but Slavs leaved some "souvenirs" I believe, destroying a lot of things in Balkans - traces by destruction maybe more than traces by construction?
concerning the archaïsm of slavic in Balkans what is your proofs? I rather think that the west and north and east slavic languages show the phonetic qualities that could explain their satemization, when the south slavic ones at the contrary seem to me as learned languages but it is true my opinion is not a specialist one - maybe you base your opinion on the slavonic religious written language existence, do you not? concerning the maritime words in croatian, are they all of slavic origin, or do they comprise some loanwords? (and let's keep in mind some I-E tribes spent a lot of time by the Black Sea) and have you got some proofs of slavic languages spoken in central Europe at higher time? if you give me some data I shall be glad
have a good and fruitful thinking night (fun)

LeBrok
08-11-13, 05:41
also south slavic languages are most archaic slavic languges,
I'm not sure about Serbian and Croatian but Bulgarian and Macedonian seem to have simplest grammar of all Slavic languages. One can assume that more complicated grammar denotes place of origin of language, and vice versa with simplified grammar.



and Croatians with Japanese have most maritime terms in the world, which indicates we spent lots of time by the sea.
I'm surprised, as Moesan is, about richness of maritime vocabulary in Slavic tongue. Could you entertain us with a list of Slavic words related to the sea. Let's skip the one associated with lakes and rivers.

MOESAN
08-11-13, 16:28
I'm not sure about Serbian and Croatian but Bulgarian and Macedonian seem to have simplest grammar of all Slavic languages. One can assume that more complicated grammar denotes place of origin of language, and vice versa with simplified grammar.


I'm surprised, as Moesan is, about richness of maritime vocabulary in Slavic tongue. Could you entertain us with a list of Slavic words related to the sea. Let's skip the one associated with lakes and rivers.


OK with you, Lebrok -
we have to be carefull when analysing or reading analysis about languages vocabulary - for every kind of conclusion: for sea words, I'm not sure we can exclude lakes words because there have been so much meaning drifts in languages (it is the difficulty of reconstitute the PIE "heimat"!): german 'see' and 'meer', french 'mer' but also 'mare' and 'marais' (marsh?) both last curiously not from latin but from germ-norrois 'mari' or 'marr' ("sea" too)

LeBrok
08-11-13, 18:34
OK with you, Lebrok -
we have to be carefull when analysing or reading analysis about languages vocabulary - for every kind of conclusion: for sea words, I'm not sure we can exclude lakes words because there have been so much meaning drifts in languages (it is the difficulty of reconstitute the PIE "heimat"!): german 'see' and 'meer', french 'mer' but also 'mare' and 'marais' (marsh?) both last curiously not from latin but from germ-norrois 'mari' or 'marr' ("sea" too)
The best way would be to use sea animals names. There are so many of them, from fish to seal to octopus, that it would be easy to determine if any language was by the sea for long time.

albanopolis
12-08-14, 21:17
Do Greeks with I2a2b descend from Slavic invaders or is it a native haplogroup?

Its Slavic. Northern Greece is mainly Macedonian Slavs which Greek government refuses to acknowledge there existence as an ethnic group. Their capital Salonica, a city of 2 million not long ago spoke Slavic language of Bulgarian dialect. The Slavs score high in I2a. Also in Greece according to some estimates live about 2 million Vlahs which also score almost equal with Slavs in I2a. The region of Thesalonia, Peloponnese and Atica are settlements of South Albanians which also score high in I2a. Don't forget that Slavs are recorded to have had their settlements in Greece. There is no such a thing as native Greek I2a. I also believe that south Albanians got their I2a from Slavs and Vlahs. What is Greek is I1 and J1+j2a+G+T. High occurrence of I2a in Slavs and Vlahs shows that they lived in vicinity of each other and absorbed The I2a people.

Yetos
12-08-14, 21:55
he was wrong. Below is what scholars go with

The apparent similarity of the Phrygian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_language) to Greek and its dissimilarity with the Anatolian languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages) spoken by most of their neighbors is also taken as support for a European origin of the Phrygians.

Some scholars have theorized that such a migration could have occurred more recently than classical sources suggest, and have sought to fit the Phrygian arrival into a narrative explaining the downfall of the Hittite Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_Empire) and the end of the high Bronze Age in Anatolia.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygia#cite_note-7) According to this recent migration theory, the Phrygians invaded just before or after the collapse of the Hittite Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_Empire) at the beginning of the 12th century BC, filling the political vacuum in central-western Anatolia, and may have been counted among the "Sea Peoples (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples)" that Egyptian records credit with bringing about the Hittite collapse. The so-called Handmade Knobbed Ware found in Western Anatolia during this period has been suggested to be an import connected to this invasion.
However, most scholars reject such a recent Phrygian migration and accept as factual the Iliad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iliad)'s account that the Phrygians were established on the Sakarya River (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakarya_River) before the Trojan War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_War), and thus must have been there during the later stages of the Hittite Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_Empire), and likely earlier. These scholars seek instead to trace the Phrygians' origins among the many nations of western Anatolia who were subject to the Hittites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites).[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygia#cite_note-8) This interpretation also gets support from Greek legends about the founding of Phrygia's main city Gordium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordium) by Gordias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordias) and of Ancyra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancyra) by Midas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midas),[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygia#cite_note-9) which suggest that Gordium and Ancyra were believed to be date from the distant past before the Trojan War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_War). Some scholars dismiss the claim of a Phrygian migration as a mere legend, likely arising from the coincidental similarity of their name to the Bryges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryges).

Herodotus also mentions that in 492 BC, some Thracian Brygoi or Brygians (Greek: Βρύγοι Θρήικες) fell upon the Persian camp by night, wounding Mardonius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mardonius) himself, though he went on with the campaign until he subdued them.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryges#cite_note-8) These Brygoi were later mentioned in Plutarch's Parallel Lives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_Lives), in the Battle of Philippi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Philippi), as camp servants of Brutus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Junius_Brutus).[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryges#cite_note-9) However, modern scholars state that a historical link between them and the original Bryges cannot be established.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryges#cite_note-10)

Mygdonians, are Brygian origin, Mygdonians are The Brygian who did not left,
Brygian and phrygian and Frygian is the same, makedonian Dialect from Hesuchius makes clear that makedonians use B instead of F that Ionians did in -ph- Φρεαρ Βρουαρ, Κεφαλη Κεβαλη, Βερενικη Φερενικη, Βατραχις ΑΦορθακις,

Brygian language was Tracian but isotones to Greek so Διος Βακχου, Τιος Βακχο, the later Slavic Bog, later ΔΙΟΣ become Θεος D->Θ from one dental to other, as also Brygian D->T

Yetos
12-08-14, 22:00
There was a colony called Pyrgi off the Tuscan coast and the Phrygians were long mixed up with the Lydians if that gives u any idea.

No you are wrong,
Lydian and carians is a strange case, they were Anatolians but we do not know if were IE speakers, or learn IE from Hettit, they could spoke EteoCretan / Eteo Cypriot
They are The Arzawa-Asuwa, they mostly connected with Achaians, and some of them migrate to Greece, in Greek they might be called as Arcadians, put that is not a statement
after the fall of Assuwa, hettits reach Aegean and Miletus, but IE expand all over West minor Asia, that can be the first devastation to Italy, about 1300-1500 BC
Luwang sprung after the fall of Arzawa(exonym given by hettits)

THE LINGUISTIC PROBLEM OF ARZAWA IS SERIOUS ENOUGH, SINCE IF SPOKE IE THEN IE WERE CENTURIES BEFORE HETTIT ENTRANCE OF HETTIT IN MINOR ASIA,
IF NOT THEN LYDIAN AND CARIAN SPRUNG FROM HETTIT AND ALL ANATOLIAN LANGUAGES, WE speak about an Indo-hettit theory,
in second case we can say that pelasgian and Arzawa and sea peoples and Etruscan might be the same, PHoceans ΦΩΚΑΕΙΣ, or we speak about about a Minoan language,

Yetos
12-08-14, 22:11
Its Slavic. Northern Greece is mainly Macedonian Slavs which Greek government refuses to acknowledge there existence as an ethnic group. Their capital Salonica, a city of 2 million not long ago spoke Slavic language of Bulgarian dialect. The Slavs score high in I2a. Also in Greece according to some estimates live about 2 million Vlahs which also score almost equal with Slavs in I2a. The region of Thesalonia, Peloponnese and Atica are settlements of South Albanians which also score high in I2a. Don't forget that Slavs are recorded to have had their settlements in Greece. There is no such a thing as native Greek I2a. I also believe that south Albanians got their I2a from Slavs and Vlahs. What is Greek is I1 and J1+j2a+G+T. High occurrence of I2a in Slavs and Vlahs shows that they lived in vicinity of each other and absorbed The I2a people.

I know a better joke, Albanians are Italians but they did not know it. :laughing:

go and ressurect some threads about that case which case was discused thorougly,

Besides Moansterion was inhabited by Greeks and Tettovo also, Give Tettovo back to Greeks NOW :angry:

PS I know a better joke, Italians are Albanians, but Albanians do not it :innocent:

Yetos
12-08-14, 22:16
OK with you, Lebrok -
we have to be carefull when analysing or reading analysis about languages vocabulary - for every kind of conclusion: for sea words, I'm not sure we can exclude lakes words because there have been so much meaning drifts in languages (it is the difficulty of reconstitute the PIE "heimat"!): german 'see' and 'meer', french 'mer' but also 'mare' and 'marais' (marsh?) both last curiously not from latin but from germ-norrois 'mari' or 'marr' ("sea" too)

how about from Greek Αλς Als English sea :cool-v:

albanopolis
12-08-14, 22:30
Again you are wrong, In Greece last researches find alive a palaiolitic remnant, I will not say the clan name, but soon you will see that aytosomal and blood search, and HIV resist of a certain tiny clan is such old that reaches Vinca, and they are major I2,
they are probably older than Sesklo/dimini and some say older than basquez, even Sardinians, the search has to do with PC*

About your post, search the Ottoman empire population numbers, and tell us why Albanians have 14% Altaic component.
I am not aware of those ottoman records but I will not be surprised If we have 14% Altaic blood in our veins. Turkish conquest left their marks in our population. The African autosomal admixture Albanians have today is a Turkish unwanted gift. If you meant that there are 14% Altaics in Albania then you are wrong,

Yetos
12-08-14, 22:48
I am not aware of those ottoman records but I will not be surprised If we have 14% Altaic blood in our veins. Turkish conquest left their marks in our population. The African autosomal admixture Albanians have today is a Turkish unwanted gift. If you meant that there are 14% Altaics in Albania then you are wrong,

I am not going to rssurect threads, search the threads about that you said,
you are giving strange numbers, and historical incorrect, the slavs who enter Greece were the Serbs mostly, in Thessaloniki Slavic was not Spoken, there were villages in upper West Makedonia, as also Monasterion Perlepe etc was Greek speaking,
Bulgarian enter in Both Fyrom and Greece mostly after 1890, Bulgarians spend a lot of money on building scholls with anexation of Ottomans, than Greek and Serbs, which need special permissions, Albanians at least in my area 7 000-10 000, were all Ottoman Soldiers and officers, they had their own tekke but study at Turkish school, if you come i can show you their tekke, and were they lived

albanopolis
12-08-14, 23:26
I am not going to rssurect threads, search the threads about that you said,
you are giving strange numbers, and historical incorrect, the slavs who enter Greece were the Serbs mostly, in Thessaloniki Slavic was not Spoken, there were villages in upper West Makedonia, as also Monasterion Perlepe etc was Greek speaking,
Bulgarian enter in Both Fyrom and Greece mostly after 1890, Bulgarians spend a lot of money on building scholls with anexation of Ottomans, than Greek and Serbs, which need special permissions, Albanians at least in my area 7 000-10 000, were all Ottoman Soldiers and officers, they had their own tekke but study at Turkish school, if you come i can show you their tekke, and were they lived

Albanians settled in Greece since the 11 century invited by Greek landlords of Byzantine empire. Many of them don't even know that originally they are Albos , since a lot of time has past. I know that from the Byzantine time documents. My point is, we are discussing the presence of I2a in Greece and knowing this documented historical facts make no sense to claim that I2a in Greece is original. There are other I subclades that are original but I2a is not one of them.