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Maciamo
11-10-13, 22:53
A new paper by Costa et al. (http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131008/ncomms3543/full/ncomms3543.html) analysed in detail the deep mitochondrial subclades of the Jewish population and compared them with European and Near Eastern sequences. Their conclusion is that over 80% of Jewish maternal lineages may be of European origin, and only 8.3% of clear Near Eastern origin. This would be extremely surprising considering that Jewishness has traditionally been passed on through the mothers rather than the fathers.

Flawed methodology

I tend to disagree with the way they attribute the origin of subclades because they only look at the places where subclades are found today and not at their potential migration patterns. For example, on their phylogenetic tree of haplogroup K they claim that K1b and K1b1 are of European origin but that K1b1c is Near Eastern. How could that have happened ? That's nonsense since haplogroup K was never found in Europe before the Neolithic and is undeniably of Near Eastern origin, a fact that they visibly are not ready to recognise since they place K and K1 in the category "undetermined origin".

They grant K2 an outright European origin simply because they estimate it to be 18,700 years old in Europe as opposed to 17,600 years old in the Near East. That is preposterous for two reasons: 1) age estimates for mtDNA are very unreliable, 2) comparison of age estimate by region should take into account historical population sizes. That's with this kind of method that other "professional" population geneticists estimated that R1a must have originated in India because it had a greater diversity there, before phylogeny proved that that wasn't the case.

It doesn't make much more sense that they should see haplogroup N1b, HV, H, J and M1 as European in origin. M1 is the oddest or all as it is pretty much limited to North Africa and is hardly ever found in Europe. If some subclades of these lineages are found predominantly in Europe it may be due to a founder effect in the Neolithic population. If some subclades are shared by the European and Jewish populations, it may also simply be because Neolithic farmers originated in the Levant, homeland of the Jews.


K as the main Ashkenazi maternal lineage

What picked my interest is that half of Ashkenazi Jews of Western and Central European origin, and one third of Eastern European origin belonged to haplogroup K, compared to an average of only about 5% in Europe and 6.5% in Germany. How could this have happened ? Genetic drift ? Natural selection ? This is how I remembered that haplogroup K, and especially K1, had been associated (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/24801-Medical-conditions-and-risk-factors-associated-with-mtDNA-haplogroups?p=350357&viewfull=1#post350357) with higher brain pH, better brain connectivity and higher IQ. Several studies have determined that Jewish people had the highest average IQ of any ethnic group, and there is no need to demonstrate that the number of famous Jewish scientists, economists, academics, Nobel laureates, etc. is disproportionately high compared to their share of the world population (even if we only look at developed countries). There are surely other genetic factors than merely mitochondrial DNA, but if mtDNA does play a role in intelligence could this haplogroup have been positively selected within the Jewish population over the centuries to cope with the more intellectual occupations that the Jews have tended to specialise in ?

Fire Haired
12-10-13, 06:39
Since Jews have been in Europe for at the most 2,000 years and different groups came at different times. Looking at how their haplogroups are distributed in Europe and the Near east today does seem like a good way to figure out if it is European or Near eastern. European Jews in austomal DNA definitely have a lot of Near eastern(click here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadF9CLUJnTUdSbkVJaDR2UkRtUE9ka UE#gid=2)). And since Jewishness is passed down from the mother why would 80% of their maternal lineages be European. Also shouldn't there be non Jewish Europeans with Jewish blood and this could add some Near eastern Y DNA and mtDNA haplogroups and austomal DNA in Europe. It would be really cool if they could find proof of people in King David's, Abraham, Moses, etc. lineage and isn't there some evidence they found people in Aarons Moses's brother lineage. I think there is a lot to learn about Genetics in the Near east it seems everything in ancient DNA and Genetics right now is about Europe. I wonder how much the Arab Muslims in the middle ages really changed and even though like Iraqi people I know claim to be Arab's(a lot of Muslims want to) they mainly descend from Babylonians or whoever.

Alan
12-10-13, 16:04
mtDNA K is what connects Jews, Kurds and Druze the most.

According to Wikipedia (don't know how reliable) Ashkenazi Jews are 32% K, Kurds 17% and Druze 16%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K_(mtDNA)

Angela
13-10-13, 22:27
The fact that the authors only used HVRI doesn't inspire total confidence in their results.

In sorting all of this out, it's interesting that a pretty recent study found that the mtdna in the Levant is also "European", in comparison to the y dna.
Badro et al, Y Chromosome and mtDNA Genetics Reveal Significant Contrasts in Affinities of Modern Middle Eastern Populations with European and African Populations.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0054616

To me, that would seem to indicate that it is just as likely that the Ashkenazim brought some of these lineages with them from the Middle East, although I've seen discussion of the paper that makes the point that Cardial may have moved *to* the Levant rather than from it.

Probably only ancient dna will sort it out.

Regardless, something did move the Ashkenazim out of the Levant slightly at least, and some of them more than slightly. I don't think this graphic is outdated, and it seems to indicate that.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v466/n7303/fig_tab/nature09103_F2.html

Rose Bud
30-11-13, 07:04
Thank you for this post, it was most interesting. I recently had my DNA test results, and I am told I have a percentage of Ashkenazi in my DNA. My haplogroup is K1b2b. Same as Meryl Streep, according to '23 and me.' Do I really have Jewish ancestors? I am a female and had no idea that there was any Jewish on my mother's side. There was mention of maybe some on my father's side. How do I find out if the % of Ashkenazi came from my mtdna or autosomal?
I am a newcomer to all this.
Rose

adamo
03-12-13, 23:07
I heard that all Ashkenazi Jews on the mtdna side can be traced to 4 individual females; 3 of them were positive for mtdna K.

Angela
03-12-13, 23:53
I heard that all Ashkenazi Jews on the mtdna side can be traced to 4 individual females; 3 of them were positive for mtdna K.

I'm afraid you heard wrong.

kamani
04-12-13, 00:27
Thank you for this post, it was most interesting. I recently had my DNA test results, and I am told I have a percentage of Ashkenazi in my DNA. My haplogroup is K1b2b. Same as Meryl Streep, according to '23 and me.' Do I really have Jewish ancestors?

Most Europeans have some form of Levantine/Anatolian ancestry. Judaism is a "recent" event in history and cumulatively only a small percentage of the people in the Levant belong to it. So your Near Eastern ancestry could be Assyrian, Babilonian, Persian, Phoenician, Caananite, Amorite, Carthagenian, Khazarian or any other source that never bottlenecked but contributed genetically in the Ashkenazi bottleneck. So if you don't have any jewish relative, it is hard to answer your question.

adamo
04-12-13, 00:56
Then why do half of all Ashkenazi Jewish women have mtdna K, Angela? What could explain it if not an ancient founder-effect among Ashkenazi women (not the origins of mtdna K itself of course).

adamo
04-12-13, 12:39
I quote the deep ancestry genographic project book: " The K women also descend from a woman in the R branch of the tree. Because of the great genetic diversity found in haplogroup K, it is likely that she lived around 20,000 years ago. Interestingly, her descendants gave rise to several different subgroups, some of which exhibit very specific geographic homelands. The very old age of these subgroups has led to a wide distribution; today they Harbor specific European, North African, and Indian components; and are found in Arabia, the northern Caucasus mountains, and throughout the Middle East. While some members of this haplogroup headed north into Scandinavia, or south into north-Africa, the vast majority of K members stem from a group of individuals that headed north out of the Middle East. These women crossed the rugged Caucasus mountains into southern Russia, and moved on to the steppes of the Black Sea (westwards into Eastern Europe). Like the N1 lineage, mtdna K is very significant because it and its subgroups also constitute three of the four major Ashkenazi Jewish founder lineages. Around half of all Ashkenazi Jews trace their mitochondrial lineage back to one of four women, and mtdna K represents the lineage that gave rise to three of them. While this lineage is found in a smaller frequency in non-Ashkenazi Jewish females, the three K lineages that helped found the Ashkenazi population are seldom found in other populations. While virtually absent in Europeans, they appear at frequencies of 3% or higher in groups from the Levant, Arabia and Egypt. This indicates a strong genetic role in the Ashkenazi founder event, which likely occurred in the near east. Today, K has given rise to three of the four most common haplogroups in Ashkenazi Jews and is currently shared by more than three million people".

Angela
04-12-13, 16:12
Thank you for this post, it was most interesting. I recently had my DNA test results, and I am told I have a percentage of Ashkenazi in my DNA. My haplogroup is K1b2b. Same as Meryl Streep, according to '23 and me.' Do I really have Jewish ancestors? I am a female and had no idea that there was any Jewish on my mother's side. There was mention of maybe some on my father's side. How do I find out if the % of Ashkenazi came from my mtdna or autosomal?
I am a newcomer to all this.
Rose

In my opinion the most reliable test for Ashkenazi ancestry is 23andme. If you get Ashkenazi ancestry there, and you also get a lot of RF and AF matches with Ashkenazim, then you have recent Ashkenazi ancestry. (by recent I mean somewhere in the neighborhood of 1/32 or 1/64) If not, not.

There's a thread on there run by a very knowledgeable person, MiTuCents, who will look at your 23andme results and help you to make sense of them. Strictly in terms of the mtdna, there are some specific clades which are Ashkenazi clades. You need high resolution of your mtdna to know if you carry them.

adamo
04-12-13, 16:18
So was I wrong or was I right angela? : )

Angela
04-12-13, 16:21
Then why do half of all Ashkenazi Jewish women have mtdna K, Angela? What could explain it if not an ancient founder-effect among Ashkenazi women (not the origins of mtdna K itself of course).

There were numerous founder events among the Ashkenazim; mtDNA is just one of them. The point is that you incorrectly stated that ALL Ashkenazim can trace their ancestry to "four founding mothers". That is not what the relevant study said...not to mention that there is disagreement about how to interpret the findings of the study. The study and subsequent ones are publicly available, so some effort, in my opinion, should be made to get the facts straight.

adamo
04-12-13, 16:26
Did you read what I wrote at all? The extract from the deep ancestry book; what study? XD, shall I re-quote it for you again:

"mtdna K is very significant because it and its subgroups also constitute three of the four major Ashkenazi Jewish founder lineages. Around half of all Ashkenazi Jews trace their mitochondrial lineage back to one of four women, and mtdna K represents the lineage that gave rise to three of them."
And:
"Today, K has given rise to three of the four most common haplogroups in Ashkenazi Jews and is currently shared by more than three million people".

Angela
04-12-13, 16:51
Did you read what I wrote at all? The extract from the deep ancestry book; what study? XD, shall I re-quote it for you again:

"mtdna K is very significant because it and its subgroups also constitute three of the four major Ashkenazi Jewish founder lineages. Around half of all Ashkenazi Jews trace their mitochondrial lineage back to one of four women, and mtdna K represents the lineage that gave rise to three of them."
And:
"Today, K has given rise to three of the four most common haplogroups in Ashkenazi Jews and is currently shared by more than three million people".

I responded to your original comment that "I heard that all Ashkenazi Jews on the mtdna side can be traced to 4 individual females; 3 of them were positive for mtdna K."

That is incorrect. The operative and incorrect word is ALL. And to be blunt, I get rather tired of seeing unsubstantiated, un-referenced, statements that are nevertheless obviously incorrect being strewn on genetics sites, and even more so when they are presented in a dogmatic fashion, although that was not the case here. I get even more tired of posting references to studies which a simple google search would have brought to light, and which should have been read before such dogmatic statements were made.

And no, I didn't read your subsequent post where, probably in response to my post, you corrected yourself. Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of spending all day on these Boards.

adamo
04-12-13, 17:12
You present a weak argument as you had no clue I was going to pull those citations out, nor did you know any of that information; in what way did I correct myself; I simply re-quoted what I had wrote earlier; your entire argument gravitates around the word "all". Awwww, don't be blunt and tired Angela; life's not so bad! : )

adamo
04-12-13, 17:29
And how do you know wether or not I spend all day on these boards; I find that rather strange to be honest lol

Angela
06-12-13, 21:48
You present a weak argument as you had no clue I was going to pull those citations out, nor did you know any of that information; in what way did I correct myself; I simply re-quoted what I had wrote earlier; your entire argument gravitates around the word "all". Awwww, don't be blunt and tired Angela; life's not so bad! : )


You present a weak argument as you had no clue I was going to pull those citations out, nor did you know any of that information; in what way did I correct myself; I simply re-quoted what I had wrote earlier; your entire argument gravitates around the word "all". Awwww, don't be blunt and tired Angela; life's not so bad! : )

You do know why they say never assume, don't you? :)

I don't think people go to a genetics thread to read off the cuff statements like "all" Ashkenazim descend from four founding mothers, when anyone who has paid any attention whatsoever to the topic of Ashkenazi ethnogenesis knows that Behar said approximately forty percent could perhaps be traced to these founders. I've been discussing this paper and posting about it for seven years...before your time, perhaps.

Before making dogmatic statements on a genetics site, I believe that at least some effort should be made to get the facts straight...a couple of minutes on google search would have led to the relevant studies.

That said, I probably wouldn't have commented quite so causticallly had I not been feeling particularly cranky...shopping during the Christmas season does that to me. :)

So, in a spirit of generosity, I will provide some citations. Be advised...there are no Cliff Notes available...

The Matrilineal Ancestry of Ashkenazi Jewry: Portrait of a Recent Founder Event, Behar et al, 2006.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1380291/

Counting the Founders: The Matrilineal Genetic Ancestry of the Jewish Diaspora, Behar et al, 2008
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2323359/

Anyone actually interested in the topic can then follow the citation trail to all the more recent studies...

adamo
07-12-13, 03:26
Kk , sounds good

JS Bach
23-07-15, 02:52
What picked my interest is that half of Ashkenazi Jews of Western and Central European origin, and one third of Eastern European origin belonged to haplogroup K, compared to an average of only about 5% in Europe and 6.5% in Germany. How could this have happened ? Genetic drift ? Natural selection ? This is how I remembered that haplogroup K, and especially K1, had been associated (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/24801-Medical-conditions-and-risk-factors-associated-with-mtDNA-haplogroups?p=350357&viewfull=1#post350357) with higher brain pH, better brain connectivity and higher IQ. Several studies have determined that Jewish people had the highest average IQ of any ethnic group, and there is no need to demonstrate that the number of famous Jewish scientists, economists, academics, Nobel laureates, etc. is disproportionately high compared to their share of the world population (even if we only look at developed countries). There are surely other genetic factors than merely mitochondrial DNA, but if mtDNA does play a role in intelligence could this haplogroup have been positively selected within the Jewish population over the centuries to cope with the more intellectual occupations that the Jews have tended to specialise in ?

I'd be interested to see if there's any correlation between mtDNA K1 and IQ in the non-Jewish European population - or in any non-Jewish population. I wouldn't be too surprised if there were a small correlation, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were none either.

joeyc
23-07-15, 14:34
Ashkenazi Jews are mixture of Arabs and Southern Europeans.

This plot from Xue et al confirms it.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-x1Ao3wH_WjU/VVgdzlyxZfI/AAAAAAAAAv8/ekaVMqX9cp0/s1600/Admixture%2Bin%2BAshkenazi%2BJews%2BPCA%2B75%25.jp g

RobertColumbia
25-07-15, 14:45
....I tend to disagree with the way they attribute the origin of subclades because they only look at the places where subclades are found today and not at their potential migration patterns. For example, on their phylogenetic tree of haplogroup K they claim that K1b and K1b1 are of European origin but that K1b1c is Near Eastern. How could that have happened ? That's nonsense since haplogroup K was never found in Europe before the Neolithic and is undeniably of Near Eastern origin, a fact that they visibly are not ready to recognise since they place K and K1 in the category "undetermined origin".

They grant K2 an outright European origin simply because they estimate it to be 18,700 years old in Europe as opposed to 17,600 years old in the Near East. That is preposterous for two reasons: 1) age estimates for mtDNA are very unreliable, 2) comparison of age estimate by region should take into account historical population sizes. That's with this kind of method that other "professional" population geneticists estimated that R1a must have originated in India because it had a greater diversity there, before phylogeny proved that that wasn't the case....

You are correct - that logic is dubious. A similar thing is happening with regards to the debate over my own yDNA haplotype, R1b-M222. It is undeniable that this type is now strongly associated with Celts of the British Isles and especially those from Northern Ireland, but there has been some debate over whether it first mutated there or was brought there via a movement from the continental Celtic population and later flourished in Ireland due to founder effects, family dynasties, and polygamy.

Sloven-Vened
23-09-16, 11:38
Jews are not Semites. Semites have dark skin and black hair. Jews are Khazars. Khazars are Germanic nation. Language of Khazars is germanic Yiddish language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews#The_Khazar_hypothesis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_genetics_of_Jews
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar_hypothesis_of_Ashkenazi_ancestry

Keksimus Maximum
27-12-16, 13:03
Khazars were most certainly not a Germanic nation, and while I do agree with the hypothesis I consider it secondary to the Rhineland hypothesis.

Rethel
27-12-16, 23:21
Subscribed.

ToBeOrNotToBe
04-04-17, 18:32
What could cause the discrepancy between the prevalence of mtDNA K in Western and Eastern Ashkenazic communities?

ToBeOrNotToBe
04-04-17, 18:41
Also, does anybody know of any studies/amateur research about any differences between Western and Eastern Ashkenazi communities - I think part of the difference could come from Sephardic Jewish immigrants to Poland in the 16th century (I think it was the 16th century), but I'm not sure how much of an impact these Sephardim had.

Angela
04-04-17, 19:00
What study shows a big discrepancy between the mtDna frequencies of western European versus Eastern European Jews?

ToBeOrNotToBe
04-04-17, 20:11
What study shows a big discrepancy between the mtDna frequencies of western European versus Eastern European Jews?

I was just wondering is all - I mean this one shows a 17% diff. in mtDNA K, which is odd for what is supposedly an extremely homogenous population.

patrician
07-04-17, 23:36
mtdna K is present in 32% of Ashkenazi jewish females and is associated with the spread of agriculture from the levant to neolithic southeastern europe and central europe via maritime and mainland routes respectively. mtdna K represents 40% of PPNB culture samples (neolithic) from Tell Ramad near Syria`s Golan heights dated to 6000 B.C. or 8,000 years ago. The clade was also discovered in skeletons of early farmers in Central Europe dated to around 5500-5300 BC, at percentages that were nearly double the percentage present in modern Europe. Some techniques of farming, together with associated plant and animal breeds, spread into Europe from the Near East. The evidence from ancient DNA suggests that the Neolithic culture spread by human migration. Mtdna K is present in both Epicardial/Cardial and LBK culture Neolithic data sets at appreciable frequencies. Modern populations with high frequencies of mtdna K are the Csango of Moldavia (22%), Kurds (17%), Druze (16%) and Cypriots (13%). Neolithic populations with high frequencies of mtdna K are Cardium Pottery farmers from Catalonia ( 23%) and in samples from the Central European Danubian dating to the Neolithic (10%).

athos
03-09-17, 22:17
You are correct - that logic is dubious. A similar thing is happening with regards to the debate over my own yDNA haplotype, R1b-M222. It is undeniable that this type is now strongly associated with Celts of the British Isles and especially those from Northern Ireland, but there has been some debate over whether it first mutated there or was brought there via a movement from the continental Celtic population and later flourished in Ireland due to founder effects, family dynasties, and polygamy.

Thanks for posting this. I took a 23andMe DNA test and my MTDNA came back as K2. Very little information seems to be available on K2 and I don't believe the ancestry timeline assumptions that are being made. I am Greek and I do not believe there are many reference populations to compare to. Through family history I strongly suspect a strong genetic connection to Crete yet I have not been able to confirm with any of the genetic calculators. My journey will continue.

Tomenable
01-04-18, 06:43
As for IQ (which was mentioned in this thread before) - Jewish IQ has a very curious, uneven pattern, different than among Non-Jewish Caucasians. Compared to Non-Jewish Caucasians, they have very high verbal, but below-average visuo-spatial.

Quote:

"Brown (1944) found several sub-test differences compatible with the hypothesis that Jewish children are higher on verbal abilities, while Scandinavian children are higher on visuo-spatial abilities. Lesser, Fifer, and Clark (1965) found large differences favoring Jewish children over Chinese-American children on verbal ability, but differences in favor of Chinese-American children on visuo-spatial abilities. And Backman (1972) found that Jewish subjects were significantly higher than non-Jewish Caucasians on a measure of verbal knowledge but were significantly lower on visuo-spatial reasoning. (...) Whereas in the general population there was a correlation of 0.77 between Verbal and Performance IQs, among Jewish children it was only 0.31. Levinson (1960b) found that a sample of Jewish boys (age 10-13) with an average Verbal IQ of 117 had a below-average Performance IQ of 98, while Irish and Italian samples matched for Full Scale IQ had Verbal/Performance differences of only approximately 5 points (approximately 110-105). Levinson (1959) provides evidence that the Verbal/Performance difference for Jewish children increases from pre-school to young adulthood. When children were matched on the basis of full-scale Wechsler IQ, pre-school children showed a small (3-point) difference between Performance and Verbal IQ, while elementary school-age and college student subjects showed a difference of approximately 20 points."

Richard Lynn noticed this too, and Feliks Koneczny in his book "The Jewish Civilization". Low performance IQ of Jews might explain why they never built powerful empires, and why they thrive the most when they have a host population. Koneczny's book, English edition:

http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/test/book-jewish-civilization.htm

"Introductory remark

The ‘Jewish question’ among nations is neither racial, nor confessional – it is a question of a wholly distinct civilization, i.e. a distinct mode of communal life. Jews have their own civilization and it is in this that the extensiveness of the issue consists. (...)"

http://www.christendom-awake.org/images/test-image/jewish-civilization.jpg

And Richard Lynn said the following:

"(...) A curious feature of the IQ of the Jews is that they are particularly strong on the verbal and reasoning abilities, and not nearly so strong on the visual and spatial abilities. (...) This profile of the Jews expresses itself in the areas of attainment in which Jews excell. Jews are very prominent in occupations requiring verbal and reasoning abilities, such as law, science, literature (...) but not so strong on occupations requiring visual and spatial abilities, such as engineering and architecture. There are not many prominent Jews in the fields of engineering and architecture. It is hard to name eminent Jews in these occupations. (...)"

More about it here: https://pumpkinperson.com/2016/08/26/excellent-data-on-jewish-iq-raises-more-questions-than-it-answers/

U.S. Jewish spatial IQ 93

Storfer notes that on reasoning with spatial forms, “…Jewish students scored significantly less well on this test (half a standard deviation lower than the non-Jewish sample)” This implies an average spatial IQ of about 93.

U.S. Jewish memory IQ 96

Storfer notes that Jews “also performed poorly on a measure of short-term recall of sequences of nonword letter strings (scoring 0.3 standard deviations below the non-Jewish sample).” This implies a memory IQ of 96.

More about it, it also explains why Jews do better when they have a host population than when they are left alone:

http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16441

"(...) In this regard, it is worth mentioning that economic historians have noticed that Jewish economic activity has tended not to be characterized by technological innovation related to mechanical abilities tapped by tests of visuo-spatial abilities (i.e., Performance IQ). Thus, Mosse (1987, 166) suggests that the distinguishing features of Jewish economic activity in 19th-century Germany are to be found "less in outright innovation or invention than in a special aptitude for economic 'mediation' in the forms of the export of German goods, of 'secondary innovation', technology transfer through the introduction into Germany of processes and methods observed abroad, and new techniques for the stimulation of demand."

Modern Israel has two "host populations" - its Non-Jewish people (Palestinian Arabs etc.) and its American supporters.

markozd
01-04-18, 18:56
"(...) In this regard, it is worth mentioning that economic historians have noticed that Jewish economic activity has tended not to be characterized by technological innovation related to mechanical abilities tapped by tests of visuo-spatial abilities (i.e., Performance IQ). Thus, Mosse (1987, 166) suggests that the distinguishing features of Jewish economic activity in 19th-century Germany are to be found "less in outright innovation or invention than in a special aptitude for economic 'mediation' in the forms of the export of German goods, of 'secondary innovation', technology transfer through the introduction into Germany of processes and methods observed abroad, and new techniques for the stimulation of demand."

Modern Israel has two "host populations" - its Non-Jewish people (Palestinian Arabs etc.) and its American supporters.

No group has had greater achievements in the natural sciences and mathematics of the late 19th and the 20th century than European Jews - and that's before normalizing for population size. Those fields don't strike me as very heavy on verbal reasoning. Obviously they were confined to economic niches in the 19th century because Jews were widely discriminated against and they tended not to own land.

Angela
01-04-18, 19:09
No group has had greater achievements in the natural sciences and mathematics of the late 19th and the 20th century than European Jews - and that's before normalizing for population size. Those fields don't strike me as very heavy on verbal reasoning. Obviously they were confined to economic niches in the 19th century because Jews were widely discriminated against and they tended not to own land.

He never stops. If it's not the racist Lynn, it's Polish historians from the 19th century downplaying Ashkenazi achievements. It's best to just ignore.

markozd
01-04-18, 19:38
He never stops. If it's not the racist Lynn, it's Polish historians from the 19th century downplaying Ashkenazi achievements. It's best to just ignore.

I really hope he gets some perspective though. Those 'host population' formulations are genuinely sinister. He's reading propaganda of the worst kind.

Tomenable
01-04-18, 23:04
Angela,

Ashkenazi achievements only skyrocketed after they became secularized.

Which was mostly after the 19th century, or at least after the 1st half of it.

Markozd,


Those 'host population' formulations are genuinely sinister.

Tell this to indigenous Palestinian Arabs though. They definitely feel like a host population. When after 1945 given a choice for the location of Israel between depopulated Kaliningrad Oblast and Arab-populated Palestine, Jews chose the latter.

Why? Maybe because they wanted to have a large host population.

Tomenable
01-04-18, 23:13
If it's not the racist Lynn

What makes him more racist than other researchers of IQ ???

Even if Lynn is racist, he is definitely not racist against Jews.

AdeoF
01-04-18, 23:22
Hmm i was always thinking that the Ashkenazi admixture is very similar/nearly the same to other Europeans because of there features and many years living in Europe. Well haplogroups don't really count much but it's interesting to see them having a different one

Tomenable
01-04-18, 23:30
because of there features and many years living in Europe

Their features are just like you would expect from a population that is roughly 1/2 Euro and 1/2 MENA. Back in times of anthropological Typology, almost 60% of Ashkenazi Jews were classified as belonging to Non-European anthropological types (and the remaining 40% or more comprised a mix of various European types):

https://s27.postimg.org/3sie35hf7/Jewish_Anthro_Types.png

https://s27.postimg.org/3sie35hf7/Jewish_Anthro_Types.png

Compare that with modern genetic data about their admixture history:

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2016/07/10/063099.full.pdf

https://s15.postimg.org/e9937ih5n/Ashkenazim.png

Angela
01-04-18, 23:38
I really hope he gets some perspective though. Those 'host population' formulations are genuinely sinister. He's reading propaganda of the worst kind.

I don't think material like that drops into your lap. People seek it out because they want to find any kind of "evidence", even pseudo-scientific evidence, to bolster their pre-existing racist ideologies, learned perhaps from family members or just generally from the people in their culture.

That's why there's no profit in debating people like that. It's all emotionally based, and so impervious to reason and logic.

I mean, as you say, they are just as accomplished in math and science as they are in verbal disciplines. In both areas they only started to shine after they were released from their ghettos and allowed to attend universities. The capacity was there, but they didn't have the access to the education before then.

This was brought up by the same poster at least once before, and all the evidence presented. It doesn't matter. It's like a tic.

Eastern Europe is living in a time warp, and it's dangerous for everyone.

Tomenable
01-04-18, 23:43
I don't think material like that drops into your lap. People seek it out because they want to find any kind of "evidence", even pseudo-scientific evidence, to bolster their pre-existing racist ideologies

I seeked it out because on another forum I debated a racist Jewish supremacist who tried to denigrate East Asians by posting this:

https://thecross-roads.org/race-culture-nation/25-the-myth-of-east-asian-intellectual-supremacy

And this: https://cdn.imagefra.me/i2639j/sftfi1imagem_9acceca.gif

So I reminded him that East Asians actually have higher performance IQ than Jews and - unlike Jews - created powerful empires.

Jews never had a state as powerful as China or Japan. Or even Tibet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_Empire

Tomenable
01-04-18, 23:48
Yes, there actually exist racist Jewish supremacists out there, Angela.

And they try to denigrate East Asians and their IQ. And other groups.

In the U.S. there is also quite a bit of racism against Asians, especially FOB ones. "China is stealing our jobs", etc.

Tomenable
02-04-18, 00:01
Eastern Europe is living in a time warp, and it's dangerous for everyone.

Or perhaps America is a living time warp, with a Cold War type mentality still prevalent.

Which is why you see China or East Europe as a menace. Evil Asian and Slavic Commies.

====================

Typical American family, well-protected against Eastern Europeans and school shooters:

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2018/03/24/pa-superintendent-we-have-piles-of-rocks-for-students-to-use-to-stop-school-shoo-n2464271

https://www.wykop.pl/cdn/c3201142/comment_8mEgsWzUM3saV1iiDjNPlItuJc84p2HF.jpg

https://www.wykop.pl/cdn/c3201142/comment_8mEgsWzUM3saV1iiDjNPlItuJc84p2HF.jpg

exceededminimumso..
02-04-18, 00:12
Or perhaps America is a living time warp, with a Cold War type mentality still prevalent.

Which is why you see China or East Europe as a menace. Evil Asian and Slavic Commies.



What is this "East Europe" you're talking about?

Tomenable
02-04-18, 00:14
What is this "East Europe" you're talking about?

Americans understand East Europe as countries between Russia and Germany.

But often they also conflate Russia with everyone else to the east of Germany.

So I guess we are all Russians for them. Orthodox subjects of Tsar Vladimir.

Not really: http://faculty.ce.berkeley.edu/coby/essays/seipel.htm

Tomenable
02-04-18, 00:20
Angela likes to accuse my country of being racist, without looking at data:

https://i.redd.it/dsph5tpfbdfz.png

https://i.redd.it/dsph5tpfbdfz.png

https://i.redd.it/bfg2ndh786fz.png

https://i.redd.it/bfg2ndh786fz.png

https://i.redd.it/3pqyefuyf4m01.jpg

https://i.redd.it/3pqyefuyf4m01.jpg

Tomenable
02-04-18, 00:21
We are not as anti-racist as Sweden as you can see. But more than Portugal or Israel.

Tutkun Arnaut
02-04-18, 00:32
Ashkenazi Jewish have practiced inbreeding. Which means they marry their first, second cousins in order to keep their possessions within the family. Jewish I have spoken with, aware of their high IQ among their ranks, have started to think that this custom not practiced among other groups might be the magic. Large percentage of K among them shows just that.

exceededminimumso..
02-04-18, 00:40
Ashkenazi Jewish have practiced inbreeding. Which means they marry their first, second cousins in order to keep their possessions within the family. Jewish I have spoken with, aware of their high IQ among their ranks, have started to think that this custom not practiced among other groups might be the magic. Large percentage of K among them shows just that.

Pretty much everyone did

Tutkun Arnaut
02-04-18, 00:51
Pretty much everyone did
not every one. such marriages are considered risky for birth defects in all European populations

exceededminimumso..
02-04-18, 00:53
not every one. such marriages are considered risky for birth defects in all European populations

Didn't stop Darwin
(, and that was beforeBrexit, HAHA)

AdeoF
02-04-18, 01:17
Their features are just like you would expect from a population that is roughly 1/2 Euro and 1/2 MENA. Back in times of anthropological Typology, almost 60% of Ashkenazi Jews were classified as belonging to Non-European anthropological types (and the remaining 40% or more comprised a mix of various European types):


https://s15.postimg.org/e9937ih5n/Ashkenazim.png

So in a nutshell Ashkenazi is a mixture of EU and MENA even now when they look a lot more European to this day. I guess that makes sense

Salento
02-04-18, 01:25
Polls are not to be taken too seriously or as evidence to make a point, especially when the Subject of the Question is Controversial for the simple reason that some people won’t tell the Pollster the truth. They don’t want to be labeled as “whatever” from the Pollsters.

ps this thread is very sad.

Tomenable
02-04-18, 01:27
Polls are not to be taken too seriously or as evidence to make a point, especially when the Subject of the Question is Controversial for the simple reason that some people won’t tell the Pollster the truth. They don’t want to be labeled as “whatever” from the Pollsters.

Anonymous polls > unsourced opinions of a forum user.


So in a nutshell Ashkenazi is a mixture of EU and MENA even now when they look a lot more European to this day. I guess that makes senseIn this new study, it seems that they increased the share of East EU admixture:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/35705-Time-and-place-of-European-admixture-into-Ashkenazi-Jews?p=536094&viewfull=1#post536094

Tomenable
02-04-18, 01:34
So in a nutshell Ashkenazi is a mixture of EU and MENA even now when they look a lot more European to this day. I guess that makes sense

Their MENA ancestry is Samaritan-like and Lebanese-like. These groups aren't "very brown".

Salento
02-04-18, 01:40
Anonymous polls > unsourced opinions of a forum user.


This is not my opinion or the results of anonymous polls: PROOF of people lying to Pollster: Brexit, Trump, and to some degree the Italians elections.

Salento
02-04-18, 03:26
@Tomenable Americans in general are decent hard working people, dynamic, open minded and tolerant.
America is a Rainbow of Humankind.
The 1st Lesson I’ve learned in America was to Agree to Disagree, and move on.
Civil Liberties are the Core of the Country.
Bad Apples are not unique to America, some Countries are much, much, and much worse.

Angela
02-04-18, 03:44
This thread is now closed. If I have the time to delete all the racist, anti-semitic, and just downright idiotic comments, I may re-open it.

You are not going to get us listed as some anti-semitic t-roll forum, Tomenable. Peddle it elsewhere.