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Angela
13-10-13, 22:38
I thought this was another good one for the guess and classify section. I'll be interested to see what you make of it; it had me stumped at first...

6043

Angela
15-10-13, 19:20
I thought this was another good one for the guess and classify section. I'll be interested to see what you make of it; it had me stumped at first...

6043

Since no one seems to be willing to play...lol.

This is Gregory Fitoussi, French actor of Algerian Jewish descent. I think he bears a strong resemblance to Bernard Henri Levy, who is from the same community.
http://psgsousf.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/levy1.jpg

LeBrok
15-10-13, 23:37
I know this fella, the very animated philosopher.

adamo
16-10-13, 09:00
First guy is definitely of European descent; it would be difficult to specify which region as he fits in many categories; very interesting the second guy, we can clearly see he's Jewish as he looks more like a middle easterner than a north-African, for example, on the median. He looks quite out of place for an Algerian to be honest.

adamo
16-10-13, 09:06
So I've re-read as I'm smoking a blunt; it would appear that they are BOTH Jews.

Alan
16-10-13, 13:55
Maybe Algerian Jew but I got the impression that Sephardic Jews in general look more Europe or Near Eastern/West Asian than North African.

LeBrok
16-10-13, 17:03
So I've re-read as I'm smoking a blunt; it would appear that they are BOTH Jews.
Yep, they look very European so they both could be Jews. I'm not sure what Jewish features you're talking about?

adamo
17-10-13, 06:04
I actually re-saw photos of those individuals on google; they don't quite look Jewish actually

MOESAN
17-10-13, 16:34
there is no peculiar physical trait that can be attributed to Jews only; the second man (I cannot see acutely enough the fîrst one) could be Italian, Greek, Jew (where from?), Armenian, French, Iberian, Swiss... he has some partly 'cromagnoid' features on his face, what is not the commoner among most of Jews but who knows? his eyes (eyelids) are very european, 'alpinelike', neither typically North-African nor Near-Eastern; as you know, Jews are a melting pot of heavy european ascendance among Askenazes and near-eastern-anatolian-southern european for sepharades so...

adamo
17-10-13, 17:56
Yes, Exactly

Angela
18-10-13, 16:08
If you can't see Gregory Fitoussi clearly just click on the picture...it should enlarge. Both he and BHL are of Algerian Jewish ancestry, although of course now French. I posted them mainly because when I saw the handsome Mr. Fitoussi in the French series "Engrenages", The Spiral, I looked him up because he didn't look quite French to me, but neither could I place him precisely. When I discovered he was of Algerian Jewish background, I thought of Bernard Henri Levy, with whom I'm very familiar, and once I looked at his young pictures, I thought I could see the resemblance. I wondered if anyone else would see it.

adamo
18-10-13, 16:32
Right. lol

Angela
18-10-13, 19:10
Right. lol

Obviously, Adamo, the people who do market research and cast leading men don't agree with you. :)
http://infos-tele.fr/photos/Gr%C3%A9gory-Fitoussi-Pierre-Cl%C3%A9ment-Engrenages-600x401.jpg


Neither do the female characters in Engrenages, by the way.

Angela
18-10-13, 21:10
there is no peculiar physical trait that can be attributed to Jews only; the second man (I cannot see acutely enough the fîrst one) could be Italian, Greek, Jew (where from?), Armenian, French, Iberian, Swiss... he has some partly 'cromagnoid' features on his face, what is not the commoner among most of Jews but who knows? his eyes (eyelids) are very european, 'alpinelike', neither typically North-African nor Near-Eastern; as you know, Jews are a melting pot of heavy european ascendance among Askenazes and near-eastern-anatolian-southern european for sepharades so...

Moesan, could you explain what you mean when you say that "Alpine" is a good description for BHL's eyes? My father and his whole family have the kind of eyes you are discussing... with the droopy lid, (how's that for an anthropological description, lol?) They are from northern Italy.

MOESAN
19-10-13, 17:13
If you can't see Gregory Fitoussi clearly just click on the picture...it should enlarge. Both he and BHL are of Algerian Jewish ancestry, although of course now French. I posted them mainly because when I saw the handsome Mr. Fitoussi in the French series "Engrenages", The Spiral, I looked him up because he didn't look quite French to me, but neither could I place him precisely. When I discovered he was of Algerian Jewish background, I thought of Bernard Henri Levy, with whom I'm very familiar, and once I looked at his young pictures, I thought I could see the resemblance. I wondered if anyone else would see it.

if you had the opportunity to see southern Frenchmen (and too big towns frenchmen of everypart) maybe you would not say "they are not French looking" - Southern Frenchmen are far to present always mediteranean traits of whatever kind but faces like these are far too to be rare - and big towns of France are since long ago the places of jewish, italian, , armenian and all kinds of Mediterraneans (geographically speaking) populations, since the roman times for someones (people more skillful for commerce and trading): the last spanish and portuguese emigrations were less based on commerce, more on hand work -in recent times I think I remarked Southern italians were found more in commerce and Northern italians more in building occupations (brickwork)... Maybe am I wrong?

Angela
19-10-13, 17:55
if you had the opportunity to see southern Frenchmen (and too big towns frenchmen of everypart) maybe you would not say "they are not French looking" - Southern Frenchmen are far to present always mediteranean traits of whatever kind but faces like these are far too to be rare - and big towns of France are since long ago the places of jewish, italian, , armenian and all kinds of Mediterraneans (geographically speaking) populations, since the roman times for someones (people more skillful for commerce and trading): the last spanish and portuguese emigrations were less based on commerce, more on hand work -in recent times I think I remarked Southern italians were found more in commerce and Northern italians more in building occupations (brickwork)... Maybe am I wrong?

I was actually born and lived for a good part of my life right over the border from France in Liguria and have spent much time in Provence. It's one of my favorite places in the world. Were I not going to retire in Italy some day, that would be my next choice. Perhaps I just don't have visual discrimination skills as developed as yours. :)

I don't know much about any Italian immigration to France. As far as most Italians are concerned...Nice (Nizza) and the surrounding areas are really Italian...Garibaldi, born in Nizza, certainly throught so...As to early twentieth century migration to France from Italy, I think a lot of it was from the Veneto...there were indeed though, some northwestern Italians involved in the construction of the tunnel up by Barcelonette. The majority of the immigrants from the north west and northern Tuscany, and the Veneto too, for that matter, went to South America. I get a lot of matches at 23andme from Argentina and Brazil.

Sile
19-10-13, 19:34
Moesan, could you explain what you mean when you say that "Alpine" is a good description for BHL's eyes? My father and his whole family have the kind of eyes you are discussing... with the droopy lid, (how's that for an anthropological description, lol?) They are from northern Italy.

All what you say is correct.
you can get further info from this link which is only 4 months old
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v21/n11/abs/ejhg201341a.html

Origin of blue eyes in ancient times was from the alpine area. This was discussed previous on another thread here...............it is based on genetics

based on :The color of the eyes: at least 17 HERC2 variants in Human gene pool
Frequency of light eyes in a population = (%ht1 +%ht2)2

Example1: Germans have 46% ht1 and 33% ht2.
(46%+33%)2
= (0.46 + 0.33)2
= 0.792
= 0.62
= 62%
62% of the Germans have light eye color based on the HERC2 genotype.


Frequency of light eyes in a population = (%ht1 +%ht2)2

Example1: Northern Italians have 42% ht1 and 27% ht2.
(42%+27%)2
= (0.42 + 0.27)2
= 0.692
= 0.58
= 58%
58% of the Northern Italians have light eye color based on the HERC2 genotype.

LeBrok
19-10-13, 19:37
Is this certain european type of Jew look?

Anthony Bourdain
http://www.pitch.com/binary/c8dd/AnthonyBourdain.jpg


Jonathan Miller
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01693/JonathanMiller_1693487c.jpg




I don't have problem recognizing "Jewishness" in Leonard Cohen or Bob Dylan.
http://www.biography.com/imported/images/Biography/Images/Profiles/C/Leonard-Cohen-9252529-1-402.jpg http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01389/bob-dylan_1389356c.jpg

Sile
19-10-13, 20:33
Is this certain european type of Jew look?

Anthony Bourdain
http://www.pitch.com/binary/c8dd/AnthonyBourdain.jpg


Jonathan Miller
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01693/JonathanMiller_1693487c.jpg




I don't have problem recognizing "Jewishness" in Leonard Cohen or Bob Dylan.
http://www.biography.com/imported/images/Biography/Images/Profiles/C/Leonard-Cohen-9252529-1-402.jpg http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01389/bob-dylan_1389356c.jpg

Are these all supposed to be Jewish?

Anthony Bourdain is non-religious person, father was catholic, mother was jewish......he married a sardinian women (Ottavia Busia) and was born in south-east France ( or family originated from there ).

Is one classified as Jewish by a parent or religious following?
If religious , then he is "pagan"

LeBrok
19-10-13, 20:41
Are these all supposed to be Jewish?

Anthony Bourdain is non-religious person, father was catholic, mother was jewish......he married a sardinian women (Ottavia Busia) and was born in south-east France ( or family originated from there ).

Is one classified as Jewish by a parent or religious following?
If religious , then he is "pagan"
I guess, whatever doesn't fit your compartmentalization and strict definition then it stops existing for you. Well get used to it, that's how today's world looks like. It is getting extremely hard to segregate and define people, as they mix, change and evolve.
Just compare it to your situation. Are you a Venet or New Zealander? You can also entertain us with your definition of a Jew.

Sile
19-10-13, 23:11
I guess, whatever doesn't fit your compartmentalization and strict definition then it stops existing for you. Well get used to it, that's how today's world looks like. It is getting extremely hard to segregate and define people, as they mix, change and evolve.
Just compare it to your situation. Are you a Venet or New Zealander? You can also entertain us with your definition of a Jew.

To be a Jew one must maintain your religious belief, clearly he has not adapted the jewish or any other religion..............another reason why the term Jew for genetics makes no sense

LeBrok
19-10-13, 23:53
To be a Jew one must maintain your religious belief, clearly he has not adapted the jewish or any other religion..............another reason why the term Jew for genetics makes no sense That's ok, it doesn't need to make sense to everyone.

Angela
20-10-13, 02:11
"Jewish" is a religion. "Ashkenazi" is an ethnic designation...a genetically specific population that formed in Europe and was severely bottlenecked around the time of the Crusades, probably in the Rhineland. They then moved to the east and there experienced a massive population explosion. They form such a genetically specific cluster that if you are even 1/32 Ashkenazi, sometimes even less, 23andme will show it. On the other hand, if you are Sephardic, which is a population that is genetically linked and overlaps with some Ashkenazi, it will only show whatever Ashkenazi you may have picked up through intermarriage with Ashkenazi Jews; the Sephardim do not form a specifically distinct enough cluster to be detected as such. Then you have Yemeni Jews, North African Jews (usually a combination of ancient Jewish communities of North Africa and Sephardic Jews from Iberia) Mountain Jews of the Caucasus, and the Mizrahim of Iraq and Iran, who have had a community there since the Bablylonian Captivity. They are all related, but owing to absorbed "foreign" admixture since the modern era, they are also genetically different.

Phenotype is a different issue, although affected obviously by admixture.

As Moesan put it, there's no "Jewish" look common to all Jews, even if people are referring to the Ashkenazi ethnicity rather than to a religious affiliation; that was a fantasy of the Nazis...Some admixture took place wherever the Jews settled. The people they mixed with in the Middle East probably didn't differ that much phenotypically from the original population, but the ones in Europe did, more or less depending on the area...I don't know why that's surprising.

The French Algerian Jewish community was formed in large measure by Sephardic Jews from Iberia, who probably absorbed some local Iberian genes, along with some Berber as well, and have mostly remained endogamous since at least the Middle Ages. Why would they look like more recently admixed North Africans?

With Italian Jews, there are the Italkim, who have probably been in Rome since the days of the Empire, and then you have a mixture of French Jews expelled from France, Sephardim from Spain, and more recently some Ashkenazim. For a long time they remained separate from each other, with separate synagogues, but that has changed with time. While sometimes I can tell that someone is Italian Jewish, at other times I see absolutely no difference between them and other Italians, as with these famous Italian Jews.

Luigi Luzzati, one of our Italian-Jewish Prime Ministers:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Luigi_Luzzatti.jpg

Camillo Olivetti, founder of the Olivetti company
http://www.fondazioneadrianolivetti.it/_images/lafondazione/photogallery/012011063105OLIVETTI_S-010.jpg

Rita Levi-Montalcini, one of a number of Italian Jewish Nobel Prize Laureates in the sciences. She looks a lot like my father's mother.
http://asso.machiavelli.free.fr/Site_francais/De_l_italie/Images_de_l_italie/LeviMontalcini3.jpg

Amadeo Modigliani-world famous painter
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/Amedeo-modigliani-identification-photo-nice-1918.jpg

Or what about Jean-Marie Cardinal Lutziger, Archbishop of Paris, born to Polish Jewish parents, convert to Catholicism...he looks Italian to me.
http://www.kipa-apic.ch/chargement/pre/28684h480w640.jpg

Then, it's been my experience that Americans often think a certain look is uniquely "Jewish" when sometimes it's just one type of Southern European look. I've had a number of them ask me why the Italian Popes look like Jews, lol. They just look Italian to me.
http://mundabor.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/pius-xii.jpg

(Of course then we have Italian Popes who look like Pius X
http://saints.sqpn.com/wp-content/gallery/pope-saint-pius-x/pope-saint-pius-x-00.jpg)

Or how about Roberto Benigni...Americans have told me he looks Jewish...he looks Italian. Poor Roberto is also proof that not all Italian men are good looking...LOL
http://www.biography.com/imported/images/Biography/Images/Profiles/B/Roberto-Benigni-9207145-1-402.jpg

And then we have Ashkenazi Jews who look like Italians like my father, and don't fit the stereotype for either Jews *or* Italians. With straight, light, hair, he'd be a dead ringer for my father in his youth.
http://cdn2.screenjunkies.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Screen-shot-2011-04-11-at-12.31.11-PM.png

Not everybody fits into some stereotypical box created by people with limited experience to other nationalities.

LeBrok
20-10-13, 04:12
Oh, c'mon Angela, they all have big noses, can't you see? Or Barbra Streisand
You mentioned by yourself how well insulated Jewish communities were in Europe and they went through bottleneck which probably was very influential in acquiring "the look". You know, of course, that how we look is in our DNA. It would be naive to assume that all of the European Jews lost the certain looks. It is true that they mingle a lot and most likely lost most members to general population through centuries and they won't be unrecognizable. But it is also true that the ones well insulated in secluded communities who survived till 21st century, will show more characteristic Ashkenazi/Jewish traits, some of them a lot. They look very European indeed, but there are some minute "accents" on their faces that make me say that they are Jewish traits.
They might not even be Jewish traits from Near East, they might as well had been picked up in Europe, in bottleneck places, or from this 80% maternal european side upon arrival to Rome.
And yes, I'm rarely sure, and best I can do is to say that he might be Jewish if he looks like Leonard Cohen, although Al Pacino would have fooled me, lol.


"Jewish" is a religion. "Ashkenazi" is an ethnic designation
I'm glad it was so easy to define it for you, Angela. Because even one of the smartest minds of 20th century struggled with it a bit.
From Einstein:

I am neither a German citizen, nor do I believe in anything that can be described as a "Jewish faith." But I am a Jew and glad to belong to the Jewish people, though I do not regard it in any way as chosen.

I am by heritage a Jew, by citizenship a Swiss, and by makeup a human being, and only a human being, without any special attachment to any state or national entity whatsoever.

I am a determinist. As such, I do not believe in free will. The Jews believe in free will. They believe that man shapes his own life. I reject that doctrine philosophically. In that respect I am not a Jew.

Angela
20-10-13, 07:24
Oh, c'mon Angela, they all have big noses, can't you see? Or Barbra Streisand
You mentioned by yourself how well insulated Jewish communities were in Europe and they went through bottleneck which probably was very influential in acquiring "the look". You know, of course, that how we look is in our DNA. It would be naive to assume that all of the European Jews lost the certain looks. It is true that they mingle a lot and most likely lost most members to general population through centuries and they won't be unrecognizable. But it is also true that the ones well insulated in secluded communities who survived till 21st century, will show more characteristic Ashkenazi/Jewish traits, some of them a lot. They look very European indeed, but there are some minute "accents" on their faces that make me say that they are Jewish traits.
They might not even be Jewish traits from Near East, they might as well had been picked up in Europe, in bottleneck places, or from this 80% maternal european side upon arrival to Rome.
And yes, I'm rarely sure, and best I can do is to say that he might be Jewish if he looks like Leonard Cohen, although Al Pacino would have fooled me, lol.


I'm glad it was so easy to define it for you, Angela. Because even one of the smartest minds of 20th century struggled with it a bit.
From Einstein:

Actually, it was quite easy. :)

I'm afraid I don't see your logic here at all. The Einstein quote is totally consistent with what I said...He states that he doesn't believe in the Jewish faith but he's a member of the Jewish people. In other words, there's a difference between his religious affiliation and his heritage and ethnicity. Just as there is in the case of Jean-Marie Lutsiger, who was born to Ashkenazi parents, but converted to Catholicism. I don't see the difficulty with distinguishing between the two things.

Plus, although Einstein alluded to genetic inheritance, the field of human genetics virtually didn't exist in Einstein's time. Nobody even knew about the double helix of dna until James Watson published his work in 1968.

Genetics doesn't lie...it is what it is...and that goes for everybody, not just the Ashkenazim. If you are even 1/32 Ashkenazi, it will show up on the 23andme Ancestry Comp, and you will get a thousand RF matches with Ashkenazim and it only stops at one thousand because they draw the line at one thousand matches. That's not an opinion...that's a certainty.

And no matter how big your nose is, even if it's as big as that of Francois I of France, if you don't have that ancestry relatively recently in your family tree, you're not going to register as Ashkenazi on a dna test. Period and end of story.
http://www.elizabethan-portraits.com/Francis3.jpg

If you're so interested in the Jewish people, you might want to actually read some population genetics studies or genetic genealogy studies. A good place to start is the paper where this PCA plot appears...
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v466/n7303/images/nature09103-f2.2.jpg

I'd be happy to provide you with citations to studies that deal with the matter.

And I take great care to be specific and precise in my language... I never said that there weren't some rather Ashkenazi specific looks...maybe you have in mind someone like Larry David? And there are other typical looks among them. But not even all Ashkenazim look like him, and they don't all look the same. In addition, the people I posted are not Ashkenazim...they are Italian Jews, so the ones who aren't Italkim are mostly Sephardic, with probably some actual Italian admixture. There is a difference between the Sephardim and the Ashkenazim.

In general, LeBrok, the fact that someone looks southern European does not mean that they look Ashkenazi, and vice versa. I prescribe a three month trip through the Mediterranean countries so that your eyes become accustomed to the differences. I can even provide travel tips free of charge.

Plus, I think you are pulling my leg here, yes? Camillo Olivetti has a big "Jewish" nose? Or Modigliani? And a "big" nose by your standards makes someone look Jewish, more specifically Ashkenazi? So, Roberto Benigni is Jewish? Pope Pius the XII?

How about William Gladstone, prime minister to Queen Victoria? Quite a handsome figure of a man, in my opinion, if rather grim looking.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4128/5066104536_1731964d2d.jpg

Or the great poet William Wordsworth?
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/uploads/authors/william-wordsworth/448x/william-wordsworth.jpg.pagespeed.ce.SjX4kGqEww.jpg

Perhaps the great philosopher John Locke?
http://www.the-philosophy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/john_locke.jpg

Or Adam Smith?
http://www.library.hbs.edu/hc/collections/kress/kress_img/adam_smith2.jpg

No little snub noses on any of them.

Perhaps the biggest correlation is with intelligence?

I'm also aware of some old wives tales which correlate large noses in Europeans with certain other traits, but my feminine modesty prohibits me from discussing the matter. :(

Btw, I think the nose on the hideous Mr. Wayne Rooney comes to Europe by way of the Baltics from eastern Asia.
http://www.nndb.com/people/585/000050435/wayne-rooney.jpg
Just saying...

And of all the Italians to pick as looking Ashkenazi...Al Pacino doesn't look Ashkenazi *at all*, LeBrok. I'm afraid I have to actually take points away from you for that one. :)

Unlike this guy, btw, who really does...the Mayor of Corleone, in Sicily, lol.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_WkOhyAMEO80/SijqqDcYouI/AAAAAAAAHkc/Wqu2Gvxvl4I/s320/Iannazzo.jpg

And now I'm going to withdraw from this rather unsavory although amusing conversation and return to things that are quantifiable, like genetics.

Buona notte...

LeBrok
20-10-13, 21:00
Actually, it was quite easy. :)

I'm afraid I don't see your logic here at all. The Einstein quote is totally consistent with what I said...He states that he doesn't believe in the Jewish faith but he's a member of the Jewish people. In other words, there's a difference between his religious affiliation and his heritage and ethnicity. Just as there is in the case of Jean-Marie Lutsiger, who was born to Ashkenazi parents, but converted to Catholicism. I don't see the difficulty with distinguishing between the two things.

You said this:

"Jewish" is a religion Doesn't it imply that only religion makes one a Jew? By this definition Einstein is not a Jew, although he comes from Jewish community.
I'm arguing this point to show how difficult is to label and classify people in today's complicated world. Often labels overlap and are imprecise to cover all. Also there are discrepancies in self designation and designation by outsiders. For example Einstein doesn't fit a "Jew" label perfectly, some would say at all if only based on religious classification, however he describes himself as a Jew on many occasions. Can we say relativism? :)


I never said that there weren't some rather Ashkenazi specific looks...maybe you have in mind someone like Larry David? And there are other typical looks among them. But not even all Ashkenazim look like him, Exactly my point of view too.




Btw, I think the nose on the hideous Mr. Wayne Rooney comes to Europe by way of the Baltics from eastern Asia.
http://www.nndb.com/people/585/000050435/wayne-rooney.jpg
Just saying...
Wow, a bit from left field, Angela. I never criticize big noses, or attached aesthetic value to them. I just said that it is a trait, like recognizable characteristic.


And of all the Italians to pick as looking Ashkenazi...Al Pacino doesn't look Ashkenazi *at all*, LeBrok. I'm afraid I have to actually take points away from you for that one. :)
Again, I sense angry emotions. It beats me in what sense I could have offended your Italian identity, or other feelings, when I've said that Al Pacino looks Jewish to me?


Unlike this guy, btw, who really does...the Mayor of Corleone, in Sicily, lol.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_WkOhyAMEO80/SijqqDcYouI/AAAAAAAAHkc/Wqu2Gvxvl4I/s320/Iannazzo.jpg
I won't comment on this one.

pace

Ike
20-10-13, 22:01
Jewish is the ethnicity, Judaism is religion.

Sile
20-10-13, 22:59
Jewish is the ethnicity, Judaism is religion.

You make no logical sense for genetics.....angela is correct.

Jewish in your version does not distinguish between Sephatic, Ashkenazi etc etc................What is jewish genetic term, a combination of all of these, if so , then its inaccurate.
Its like saying there is a Romance genetic term, combine Italian, French and Spanish....Illogical

If you want a Jewish term, then dismiss sephatic, Ashenazi and all the others, you cannot have bother, can you!

Angela
21-10-13, 02:39
You said this:
Doesn't it imply that only religion makes one a Jew? By this definition Einstein is not a Jew, although he comes from Jewish community.
I'm arguing this point to show how difficult is to label and classify people in today's complicated world. Often labels overlap and are imprecise to cover all. Also there are discrepancies in self designation and designation by outsiders. For example Einstein doesn't fit a "Jew" label perfectly, some would say at all if only based on religious classification, however he describes himself as a Jew on many occasions. Can we say relativism? :)

Exactly my point of view too.




Wow, a bit from left field, Angela. I never criticize big noses, or attached aesthetic value to them. I just said that it is a trait, like recognizable characteristic.


Again, I sense angry emotions. It beats me in what sense I could have offended your Italian identity, or other feelings, when I've said that Al Pacino looks Jewish to me?

pace

Angry? I assure you, were I angry you would know it! I thought I was being amusing, albeit in a slightly sarcastic way. The internet is just not very good at communicating subtlety. :)

I usually don't engage in discussions of phenotype, as it is so subjective, but since I started it, I will finish...

In my *opinion*...
1) There are a few looks that I would classify as particularly "Ashkenazi" looking..
2) People who have those specific "looks" need not be Ashkenazi...
3) Not all Ashkenazim have those supposedly "typical" looks; some of them just look southern European or Middle European or Levantine, although more rarely.
4) Owing to different admixture events in different places, there are *sometimes* significant differences in terms of phenotype between Ashkenazim, Sephardim (even among themselves...i.e. North African Jews vs Turkish and Greek descent Jews), Mizrahim and Yemeni Jews.
I think pattern recognition, in this as in many other things, improves with exposure...no offense intended, but it seemed to me that you lack that kind of experience, otherwise you would not be posting pictures or responding to pictures of just generally southern European looking people, or at the most generally Near Eastern looking people, and claiming that they looked "Jewish" although Ashkenazi is what I think you meant.
5) I found your comments that Camillo Olivetti and Amadeo Modigliani had "large" particularly "Jewish" noses in some way, wildly off the mark and rather funny. That's why I took you through the visual tour of eminently brilliant, and prominently nosed, British men. :) To make my point that you seemed to think only people with virtual "button" noses didn't look Ashkenazi, I just thought of the smallest nosed person that came to my mind, and the unfortunate looking Mr. Rooney swam to the surface...lol...you really shouldn't be offended...if you do feel that way, just look at Roberto Benigni's picture...we have funny looking people too.

Although, I have to speak up on behalf of Larry David...I just love him, and I know a lot of men, wonderful men, friends of mine, who rather look like him, and I find the look oddly endearing...jolie laide. :)

And, I wouldn't be at all offended if told an Italian looked Ashkenazi...there are indeed some who do...Al Pacino is just not one of them...actually, in the last few years, he looks like an alien...quite scary looking...the wages of too much plastic surgery perhaps.

And now, I really am out of this thread...I only have so much time for this kind of thing, and there a few posts on here to which I would like to respond, including one of yours!

Nobody1
21-10-13, 08:33
The young Al Pacino and the young Dustin Hoffman looked very identical;
Both are of the Caucasoid Medit./Dinaric type;
Its an Anthropological thing; elements of geography or religion and culture is secondary in that respect;

And Wayne Rooney is not Baltic; He is of the Caucasoid Brünn/Borreby type;

PS: Einstein was German, a proper Swabian;

adamo
21-10-13, 09:58
How would u classify this man

adamo
21-10-13, 09:59
-___- can someone instruct me on how to upload a photo lol it's not working

Ike
22-10-13, 15:53
You make no logical sense for genetics.....angela is correct.

Jewish in your version does not distinguish between Sephatic, Ashkenazi etc etc................What is jewish genetic term, a combination of all of these, if so , then its inaccurate.
Its like saying there is a Romance genetic term, combine Italian, French and Spanish....Illogical

If you want a Jewish term, then dismiss sephatic, Ashenazi and all the others, you cannot have bother, can you!

Jewish means what it meant long before genetic tools were invented.
New research shows that nations are not that genetically clean as people would like/thought them to be, and soon will come the time when it will be necessary to resolve the discrepancies, but in the meantime I'm using generally accepted Ethnographic terminology because otherwise we'd be obliged to change definition of certain ethnicity every time a new genetic research shows up which would eventually lead to a chaos. Imagine a thread where Jewish written in 2011. means different than Jewish written in 2015, because some dude proved in 2014. that Ashkenazi are not genetic Jews.


P.S. As for the nose, its obvious:

Rachel: Are you suggesting I get a nose job?
Doctor: You're sixteen right? That's when I gave my daughters theirs. It's like a rite of passage for Jewish girls.

http://www.pygmalionsfantasy.com/2013/01/ethnic-makeovers-women-and-jewish-noses.html
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/101732/a-nose-dive-for-nose-jobs

adamo
22-10-13, 18:26
hahahaha; Jewish means nothing Ike, Jews are simply an amalgamy of different haplogroups as are any other population. There are no special/particular genes that make Jews Jews; they have about 40% y-DNA J (half is J1 and half is
J2) 20% E3b and probably about 20% R1 (half R1a and half R1b). Their J marker is indicative of their original middle eastern line of descent, E3b is found at high % across north-Africa and the small R1 element is due to admixture with their east-central or Western European hosts, depend on wether they were Sephardi or Ashkenazi Jewish. Other than a few minimal exceptions (subclades), there are no solely Jewish haplogroups.

adamo
22-10-13, 18:30
The whole nose thing about Jews is a typically false stereotype; I've seen full-blooded American Indians with Jew noses, other middle easterners and even some white Europeans have Jew noses; I really doubt it reflects a common Jewish ancestry in all these populations; it's just a physical trait found throughout the entire world.

Ike
22-10-13, 20:25
Nobody said that Jews are isolated in one Hg. But saying that Jewish means nothing is ridiculous. Should we delete that word from dictionary if it means nothing?

adamo
22-10-13, 21:33
What I meant is that there are no specific genes associated with Jews, they don't have their own haplogroups that are only found in Jews, the different haplogroups that make up the Jewish population arrived at different times from different places and when combined, that is what created the Jewish people. A haplogroup melting pot. What makes them Jewish is not their own particular set of genes that are "only found in them"; it's their religion,culture and customs they abide by that makes them Jewish, and ultimately they all trace back to Israel and to many different places before that.

adamo
22-10-13, 21:45
In other words, the Jewish people are not just one homogenous block; there's certainly some diversity on the Y-DNA line in terms of what haplogroups they have. Ashkenazi Jews for example have 20% E3b, 20% J2, 17% J1, about 10% R1b and same for R1a, and 7% hg Q and G. In other words, Ashkenazi Jews have very low G frequencies. Other Jewish communities have slightly higher or lower frequencies. The Tras O Montes Portuguese Jews though have a different order of highest haplogroup importance in their genetic profile with about 30% of them being R1b. Another 25% are J2 and then T is found in 16% of them. Another 12% belong to J1 all other haplogroups are found at very low frequencies. Just to show you an example how even within different Jewish communities the genetic profile varies.

Angela
22-10-13, 23:00
Jewish means what it meant long before genetic tools were invented.
New research shows that nations are not that genetically clean as people would like/thought them to be, and soon will come the time when it will be necessary to resolve the discrepancies, but in the meantime I'm using generally accepted Ethnographic terminology because otherwise we'd be obliged to change definition of certain ethnicity every time a new genetic research shows up which would eventually lead to a chaos. Imagine a thread where Jewish written in 2011. means different than Jewish written in 2015, because some dude proved in 2014. that Ashkenazi are not genetic Jews.


P.S. As for the nose, its obvious:

Rachel: Are you suggesting I get a nose job?
Doctor: You're sixteen right? That's when I gave my daughters theirs. It's like a rite of passage for Jewish girls.

http://www.pygmalionsfantasy.com/2013/01/ethnic-makeovers-women-and-jewish-noses.html
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/101732/a-nose-dive-for-nose-jobs

It's a good thing this section isn't open to non-members...how incredibly stereotypical, offensive, and uninformed this post is...are Iranians Jews too?...they get a lot of plastic surgery on their noses in my experience...and could they afford it, I'm sure a lot of "Dinaric" looking people in the Balkans would too...just a lot of people caving to the "look" popularized by Hollywood, which is incredibly ironic if you think about it.

adamo
22-10-13, 23:48
He bases his theory on noses; if you really analyze that, his logic is indeed flawed. I have seen whites, native Americans, Iranians, Syrians (other middle easterners) and even Koreans with Jewish noses; they probably aren't genetically linked to Jews.

adamo
22-10-13, 23:51
And yes you're correct Angela, Iranians also irritate me in that sense; they get nose jobs at a tender age and then smile their lives away like they were born pretty XD

MOESAN
21-03-14, 20:10
good points, Angela
I take the hand here very lately, just for the fun (if there is some fun in the question):
my father too used to say he recognized a Jew easily - but I think that some very striking facial features of Askhenaze Jews in Western Europe (striking for us) were in fact lomited to some of them, and were the result of some crossings betweensouthern, northern Near Eastern and anatolian people (maybe with some european accretions), where some dominant genes were at work - but all around Eastern Mediterranea you can find individuals with these extreme traits born by crossing (which explains they cannot represent a majority in the population) among populations which have no jewish ancestry at all - and you find a LOT of Jews that do'nt present this traits... in western Europe, these individuals were "typically jewish" because they were the only ones (or the first ones) there who presented these partial results of East-Mediterranean crossings where some 'armenoid' (to say like that) element seemed heavy - in Israel, the bulk lot of local Jews show no "jewish" traits at all!!!

Angela
21-03-14, 21:29
good points, Angela
I take the hand here very lately, just for the fun (if there is some fun in the question):
my father too used to say he recognized a Jew easily - but I think that some very striking facial features of Askhenaze Jews in Western Europe (striking for us) were in fact lomited to some of them, and were the result of some crossings betweensouthern, northern Near Eastern and anatolian people (maybe with some european accretions), where some dominant genes were at work - but all around Eastern Mediterranea you can find individuals with these extreme traits born by crossing (which explains they cannot represent a majority in the population) among populations which have no jewish ancestry at all - and you find a LOT of Jews that do'nt present this traits... in western Europe, these individuals were "typically jewish" because they were the only ones (or the first ones) there who presented these partial results of East-Mediterranean crossings where some 'armenoid' (to say like that) element seemed heavy - in Israel, the bulk lot of local Jews show no "jewish" traits at all!!!

Yes, I generally agree. A shout out to LeBrok should he happen to read this post is in order. I re-read the whole thread, and while I was in good humor when I responded to him, I do think I was a little tough on him as well. I was new and didn't realize what an intelligent, reasonable, fair, and nice guy he truly is...mea culpa Le Brok.

LeBrok
22-03-14, 06:25
Yes, I generally agree. A shout out to LeBrok should he happen to read this post is in order. I re-read the whole thread, and while I was in good humor when I responded to him, I do think I was a little tough on him as well. I was new and didn't realize what an intelligent, reasonable, fair, and nice guy he truly is...mea culpa Le Brok.
Oh, stop it Angela :33:, but at least now I know why my wife loves me, I have good side too. :16:

I know that often I sound harsh and inconsiderate to people. As a nerd I'm naturally concerned about facts more than people's feelings during discussion. My social side it is a work in progress and always will be. Apologies in advance. :37:

Angela
22-03-14, 16:44
Oh, stop it Angela :33:, but at least now I know why my wife loves me, I have good side too. :16:

I know that often I sound harsh and inconsiderate to people. As a nerd I'm naturally concerned about facts more than people's feelings during discussion. My social side it is a work in progress and always will be. Apologies in advance. :37:

I don't think you sound harsh or inconsiderate...in fact, I often admire your self-control and wish that I could duplicate it. (I have deliberately stayed away from the Ukraine thread, for example, because I know that l would go nuclear on some of these people.:spitting_mad:)


Sometimes I forget where I am, and that I don't have a business competitor or a witness in front of me whom it's my job to reduce to jibbering incoherence. They usually look like this when I'm done with them.:dribble::41:


Seriously, I'm devoted to facts as well, which places us both in the minority as far as people are concerned, in my opinion, and if a subject doesn't lend itself to quantification, to reasoned speculation based on facts and experience.

Which is why, Le Brok, you are still dead wrong on this topic!:smile:

Ed. Apologies for all of the smileys. I just discovered how you accessed all those big, fun ones, and I went a little overboard! I promise I will use them sparingly in the future.

I am, however, going to make the person beating his head against a brick wall part of my permanent repertoire.

Engel
22-03-14, 22:33
And yes you're correct Angela, Iranians also irritate me in that sense; they get nose jobs at a tender age and then smile their lives away like they were born pretty XD
Lol. I never knew this. Despite their nose jobs, they dont look pretty and the females look manly

Angela
22-03-14, 23:18
Lol. I never knew this. Despite their nose jobs, they dont look pretty and the females look manly

Here's the civilized response...standards of beauty are subjective. Oh, and if you can't say something nice about someone, say nothing at all...

Here's the uncivilized response...no, I won't do it...I've promised myself...no more getting down into the mud...just another one for the ignore list. Pretty soon it's going to be longer than the list of people whose posts I actually read! LOL

LeBrok
22-03-14, 23:43
I don't think you sound harsh or inconsiderate...in fact, I often admire your self-control and wish that I could duplicate it.

Great, that means that I've learned, and achieved my goal. I've evolved from being feisty and subject oriented to people conscious. My motto for the change was "Making sure that people around me have as much fun as I do". Additionally after years I finally understood that most people are not interested in knowing the truth, but instead they have most fun just from talking and socializing in general. Much talking about nothing doesn't come natural to nerds, lol.
There is not much chance one can change people's mind on the spot, (daily examples on Eupedia) but at least one have a chance to show them a different explanation or expose them to new ideas. Time should do the rest. The new ideas need time to settle down in a brain.

PS. For some reason I feel exposed now...:rolleyes2:


Which is why, Le Brok, you are still dead wrong on this topic!http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/smile.gif Obviously I didn't much of a case to start with. :grin: