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Maciamo
17-10-13, 17:41
Let's continue the series of mtDNA maps. Here comes U3, a haplogroup with strong Near Eastern affinities. U3 was was almost certainly propagated by some (Levantine ?) Neolithic farmers in Europe, especially haplogroups E1b1b, J1(xP58) and T. U3 reflects partially the Southwest Asian admixture (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/autosomal_maps_dodecad.shtml#Southwest_Asian) from the Dodecad Project (excluding the more recent Arabic expansion linked with the rise of Islam, simply because Saudis have only 1.5% of U3).

It is also likely that the Indo-Europeans carried a small percentage of U3 lineages, especially the R1b branch. That may be why U3 shows up in unexpected parts of Europe, such as Norway, Scotland, Ireland, northwestern France and Catalonia - all regions characterised by high levels of R1b-L21 and/or R1b-Z195.

The hotspot in southern Belarus and northwestern Ukraine reflects the higher frequency of Near Eastern Y-DNA and mtDNA in the region, which I believe are due to a northern expansion of the people of the Late Neolithic Cucuteni-Trypillian culture after their homeland was invaded by the Indo-Europeans (Corded Ware, Yamna).

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-U3-map.png

LeBrok
17-10-13, 18:35
[QUOTE=Maciamo;418004]

The hotspot in southern Belarus and northwestern Ukraine reflects the higher frequency of Near Eastern Y-DNA and mtDNA in the region, which I believe are due to a northern expansion of the people of the Late Neolithic Cucuteni-Trypillian culture after their homeland was invaded by the Indo-Europeans (Corded Ware, Yamna).

[QUOTE]

This Belarus-Ukraine spot is the center of Jewish settlement in Eastern Europe. Black and red denotes highest concentration, blue is next.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bf/Juden_1881.JPG/728px-Juden_1881.JPG

This map shows settlements before moving east to Poland and more to the east.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Expulsion_judios-en.svg
Only Britten doesn't match U3, the rest is bang on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Juden_1881.JPG

Again, thanks for the maps Maciamo.

Angela
17-10-13, 20:05
[QUOTE=Maciamo;418004]

The hotspot in southern Belarus and northwestern Ukraine reflects the higher frequency of Near Eastern Y-DNA and mtDNA in the region, which I believe are due to a northern expansion of the people of the Late Neolithic Cucuteni-Trypillian culture after their homeland was invaded by the Indo-Europeans (Corded Ware, Yamna).

[QUOTE]

This Belarus-Ukraine spot is the center of Jewish settlement in Eastern Europe. Black and red denotes highest concentration, blue is next.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bf/Juden_1881.JPG/728px-Juden_1881.JPG

This map shows settlements before moving east to Poland and more to the east.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Expulsion_judios-en.svg
Only Britten doesn't match U3, the rest is bang on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Juden_1881.JPG

Again, thanks for the maps Maciamo.

I think Maciamo has gotten it exactly right. Brandt et al hint at the same thing with their grouping of mtDNA H and U3 in north-Central Europe in pre-history, long before there were any Ashkenazim there. (the area was also later enriched by "H" mtDNA clades from the west as per Brotherton et al, of course.) MtDNA U3 is Neolithic and Neolithic mtDNA is why Corded Ware and Unetice mtDNA show such close FST with the Caucasus and Anatolia. You can see the movement of U3 into Central Asia as well...there've been a lot of recent papers showing it.

Just generally too, I sincerely doubt that big numbers of Ashkenazi women converted to Christianity, and are responsible for U3 (and K1a, for example) showing up all over Italy, central, and eastern Europe. The segregation of the two communities was extreme from the end of the Roman Empire, with not only inter-marriage but daily intercourse vastly circumscribed, especially for women...which is why I think that if there was a major admixture event, it took place before those rules took complete hold. Of course, the proof, as for the claims for K1a, will lie in full mtDNA sequence testing, so that it can be seen where any specifically Ashkenazi clades appear in the phylogeny and if a reasonable date can be assigned.

matbir
18-10-13, 18:20
Very surprising distribution! It seems to contradict Slavic migrations from Western Ukraine and Southern Belarus.

LeBrok
19-10-13, 21:18
I think Maciamo has gotten it exactly right. Brandt et al hint at the same thing with their grouping of mtDNA H and U3 in north-Central Europe in pre-history, long before there were any Ashkenazim there. (the area was also later enriched by "H" mtDNA clades from the west as per Brotherton et al, of course.) MtDNA U3 is Neolithic and Neolithic mtDNA is why Corded Ware and Unetice mtDNA show such close FST with the Caucasus and Anatolia. You can see the movement of U3 into Central Asia as well...there've been a lot of recent papers showing it.

Just generally too, I sincerely doubt that big numbers of Ashkenazi women converted to Christianity, and are responsible for U3 (and K1a, for example) showing up all over Italy, central, and eastern Europe. The segregation of the two communities was extreme from the end of the Roman Empire, with not only inter-marriage but daily intercourse vastly circumscribed, especially for women...which is why I think that if there was a major admixture event, it took place before those rules took complete hold. Of course, the proof, as for the claims for K1a, will lie in full mtDNA sequence testing, so that it can be seen where any specifically Ashkenazi clades appear in the phylogeny and if a reasonable date can be assigned.

You might be right. When I quickly glanced at the map in the morning I thought that Near Eastern center was in Israel. Thanks to you my Eureka moment didn't last too long, lol.

I'm not sure what to think about this right now. It still matches Jewish settlements almost perfectly. Costal Iberia, Britannia and South France, Italy, Greece (during Roman Empire), Lower Rhine region in Germany (where Yiddish language was created), huge center in Poland/Belarus/Ukraine, Latvia.

But overall:
- coverage of Near East, South East Balkans and Italy is continuous and rather consistent, denotes early settlement and more time for dispersal of U3.
- rest of Europe is less consistent with strong and visible centers, denotes later settlement and lack of time for uniform dispersal. It goes together well with other early farmers haplogroups patterns over Europe.

What if Jewish men picked up wives of U3 types when they came to Rome or Greece during Roman Era?

However, a 2013 study of Ashkenazi mitochondrial DNA, from the University of Huddersfield in England, suggests that at least 80 percent of the Ashkenazi maternal lineages derive from the assimilation of mtDNAs indigenous to Europe, probably as a consequence of conversion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews

LeBrok
19-10-13, 21:22
Very surprising distribution! It seems to contradict Slavic migrations from Western Ukraine and Southern Belarus.

If U3 was Jewish it would make sense as Jews came to this area long after Slavic expansion. I don't know of any other big population settling there after mentioned expansion.

Sile
19-10-13, 21:48
In the limited existing Western Eurasian lineages, two sub-haplogroups, U3 and X2, that are rare in Central Asia were found in this study, which may be indicative of the remnants of an early immigrant population from the Near East and Caucasus regions preserved only in the Tarim Basin.

Caucasus of U3 mtdna is what i agree with based on genetic studies

kamani
19-10-13, 22:17
(Bosch 2006) found no U3 in Albanians, Greeks, or Macedonians. Only 2-3% was found in a couple of Aromun communities and 2% in Romanians from Constanta. Which means that the current distribution of U3 is relatively recent, possibly Jewish.

Maciamo
19-10-13, 22:52
If U3 was Jewish it would make sense as Jews came to this area long after Slavic expansion. I don't know of any other big population settling there after mentioned expansion.


(Bosch 2006) found no U3 in Albanians, Greeks, or Macedonians. Only 2-3% was found in a couple of Aromun communities and 2% in Romanians from Constanta. Which means that the current distribution of U3 is relatively recent, possibly Jewish.

The Jews have practically no U3 : only 1% based on 836 samples.

I have 996 samples for Greece and an average of 3.8%.

LeBrok
20-10-13, 00:32
The Jews have practically no U3 : only 1% based on 836 samples.

lol, I know, I just can't let go this idea looking at European distribution. ;)

kamani
20-10-13, 03:40
The Jews have practically no U3 : only 1% based on 836 samples.

I have 996 samples for Greece and an average of 3.8%.

Then the map is a bit strange if the Greeks have more U3 than the Jews, because the areas with highest density are the ones around Israel and the source seems to be in the Levant. Or the map is right and we're into something...

Angela
20-10-13, 04:41
Then the map is a bit strange if the Greeks have more U3 than the Jews, because the areas with highest density are the ones around Israel and the source seems to be in the Levant. Or the map is right and we're into something...

I think the explanation may lie in the fact that the Ashkenazim are a very bottle-necked population, with an extremely small group of founding members, and an even smaller group of mtDNA founding "mothers". A big percentage of their surviving mtDNA lines stem from just four women. Some mtdna lineages typical of the Near East, or Europe, for that matter, and especially if they were minor lineages, either weren't part of the founding population, or drifted out.

In think lots more ancient dna will clarify the picture, but we do have some already.

See...

U3 in pre-modern Europe has been found in:
Dnieper-Donets Ukraine-5474-5225 B.C.
LBK Neolithic in Germany-5,000 B.C.
Wielbark Culture Poland-0-300 A.D.
Skovgaard Denmark-200 A.D.
Zavalar-Kapolna Tomb Hungary-1100 A.D.
Cumanian people in Hungary (a semi Nomadic Turkic speaking people)-1200 A.D.

None of the above has anything to do with Ashkenazim; they didn't even exist yet, and they certainly weren't in those European areas at that time.

Ed. There is also a sample dated to 4490-4335 B.C. in Israel, when there weren't yet any Jews there either.

Alan
20-10-13, 04:51
I think the explanation may lie in the fact that the Ashkenazim are a very bottle-necked population, with an extremely small group of founding members, and an even smaller group of mtDNA founding "mothers". A big percentage of their surviving mtDNA lines stem from just four women. Some mtdna lineages typical of the Near East, or Europe, for that matter, and especially if they were minor lineages, either weren't part of the founding population, or drifted out.

In think lots more ancient dna will clarify the picture, but we do have some already.

See...

U3 in pre-modern Europe has been found in:
Dnieper-Donets Ukraine-5474-5225 B.C.
LBK Neolithic in Germany-5,000 B.C.
Wielbark Culture Poland-0-300 A.D.
Skovgaard Denmark-200 A.D.
Zavalar-Kapolna Tomb Hungary-1100 A.D.
Cumanian people in Hungary (a semi Nomadic Turkic speaking people)-1200 A.D.

None of the above has anything to do with Ashkenazim; they didn't even exist yet, and they certainly weren't in those European areas at that time.

Ed. There is also a sample dated to 4490-4335 B.C. in Israel, when there weren't yet any Jews there either.


Palisto from KurdishDNAblog has the theory that Ashkenazi Jews have Iranic origin and descend of Parthian
http://kurdishdna.blogspot.de/2012/07/ashkenazi-jews-and-their-iranian-origin.html
http://kurdishdna.blogspot.de/2013/10/hv1b2-discovered-among-yezidi-kurd.html

The term Ashkenaz is most likely of Iranian origin. Ashkuza was a name used by Assyrians for Scythians. And Ashkan is the Iranian name for Parthian.

Angela
20-10-13, 05:38
Palisto from KurdishDNAblog has the theory that Ashkenazi Jews have Iranic origin and descend of Parthian
http://kurdishdna.blogspot.de/2012/07/ashkenazi-jews-and-their-iranian-origin.html
http://kurdishdna.blogspot.de/2013/10/hv1b2-discovered-among-yezidi-kurd.html

The term Ashkenaz is most likely of Iranian origin. Ashkuza was a name used by Assyrians for Scythians. And Ashkan is the Iranian name for Parthian.

I don't see it, personally. To me, the Sephardim and the Ashkenazim just look like northern Near East people with additional "European" specific ancestry, and maybe a dash of Khazar for the Ashkenazim. In every PCA plot I've ever seen, even those by the amateur bloggers, they land north of Cyprus, overlapping with some southern Italians and Greeks if the resolution is not very fine grained, and then with some of the Ashkenazim drifting a little northward toward the Tuscans and Balkan people, and with some drifting even more toward the north east, which makes total sense if they picked up some eastern European and East Asian. They don't plot anywhere near Iranians.

If I had to guess what the original Israelites of the Bronze Age were like, I'd say that something between the Samaritans and the Druze would probably be in the ball park...not the Palestinians...or, in other words, more like the current people of the more northern Near East, which would include the Iranians, just not as South Asian or East Asian shifted.

This is an example of what I mean:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2012/07/jstuff.jpg

I find the placement of the Belmonte Jews (SbJ) particularly fascinating. They're an isolated, very inbred group of Converso Jews who remained in "hiding" ever since the days of the Inquisition. Notice how the absorption of more Iberian input has drifted them more toward Spain.

Anyway, that's my tu cents...:)

Alan
20-10-13, 08:20
I don't see it, personally. To me, the Sephardim and the Ashkenazim just look like northern Near East people with additional "European" specific ancestry, and maybe a dash of Khazar for the Ashkenazim. In every PCA plot I've ever seen, even those by the amateur bloggers, they land north of Cyprus, overlapping with some southern Italians and Greeks if the resolution is not very fine grained, and then with some of the Ashkenazim drifting a little northward toward the Tuscans and Balkan people, and with some drifting even more toward the north east, which makes total sense if they picked up some eastern European and East Asian. They don't plot anywhere near Iranians.

If I had to guess what the original Israelites of the Bronze Age were like, I'd say that something between the Samaritans and the Druze would probably be in the ball park...not the Palestinians...or, in other words, more like the current people of the more northern Near East, which would include the Iranians, just not as South Asian or East Asian shifted.

This is an example of what I mean:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2012/07/jstuff.jpg

I find the placement of the Belmonte Jews (SbJ) particularly fascinating. They're an isolated, very inbred group of Converso Jews who remained in "hiding" ever since the days of the Inquisition. Notice how the absorption of more Iberian input has drifted them more toward Spain.

Anyway, that's my tu cents...:)


Giving their current location and considering the strong European admixture among Ashkenazis there is no reason to assume them clustering with Iranians because obviously they will plot somewhere between the Near East and Europe. So autosomal DNA to trace back origin is not a good sign at all. What is more important in this case is the y and mtDNA which both show strong sign of Iranian admixture.

Ashkenazi R1a* is specifically Iranian z93 not the European z283 and they have elevated frequency of R2a*. Even the Q* Haplogroup belongs specifically to Iranian sub clade. Ashkenazis have also mtDNA specifically common among Iranians and Caucasians HV is one of them.

And also the term Ashkenaz very likely derived from Iranian origin.

Iranians are less East or South Asian shifted than Levantines are Arabian/East African or Turks East Asian shifted.

Also with Iranian or Iranic I am not referring only to modern people of Iran but the broader Iranian ethno-linguistic group.

kamani
20-10-13, 09:52
Giving their current location and considering the strong European and Levantine admixture among Ashkenazis there is no reason to assume them clustering with Iranians because obviously they will plot somewhere between South Europe and the Near East. So autosomal DNA to trace back origin is not a good sign at all. What is more important is the y and mtDNA which both show strong sign of Iranian admixture.

Ashkenazi R1a* is specifically Iranian z93 not the European z283. Even the Q* Haplogroup belongs specifically to Iranian sub clade. Ashkenazis have also mtDNA specifically common among Iranians and Caucasians HV is one of them.

And also the term Ashkenaz very likely derived from Iranian origin.

Iranians are by far less East or South Asian shifted than Levantines are Arabian/East African or Turks East Asian shifted.

Also with Iranian or Iranic I am not referring only to modern people of Iran but the broader Iranian ethno-linguistic group.

Some Iranian influence in the Levant is quite possible since it was under the Persian Empire for a long time. There is a strange concentration of E-M123 in Bulgaria, Macedonia, and Northern Greece which could be Persian soldiers from the Levant.

Maciamo
20-10-13, 12:55
Some Iranian influence in the Levant is quite possible since it was under the Persian Empire for a long time. There is a strange concentration of E-M123 in Bulgaria, Macedonia, and Northern Greece which could be Persian soldiers from the Levant.

What does that have to do with U3 ? Female soldiers ?

kamani
20-10-13, 15:33
What does that have to do with U3 ? Female soldiers ?
Nothing with U3, that was solved already, it is Levantine women that came to Europe and dissapeared in the crowd, leaving their men in a bottleneck with only 4 women total. :)

LeBrok
20-10-13, 22:16
Very surprising distribution! It seems to contradict Slavic migrations from Western Ukraine and Southern Belarus.
Should we move Slavic homeland from Czarnolas?

matbir
20-10-13, 23:01
Who placed them in czarnolas? I thought that the earliest archeological culture which could be attributed with caution to early Slavs is Zarubintsy culture.

LeBrok
21-10-13, 00:54
I meant some other Czarnoles (not in Poland) by Prypiat/middle Dnieper, basically Zarubintsy culture.

matbir
21-10-13, 13:23
Yes, I know, you were referring to this Chernoles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernoles_culture). But I don’t know any connection between this culture and Slavs. Zarubintsy culture is descendant of Pomeranian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomeranian_culture) culture not Chernoles or Milograd.

matbir
21-10-13, 13:48
Yes, I know, you were referring to this Chernoles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernoles_culture). But I don’t know any connection between this culture and Slavs. Zarubintsy culture is descendant of Pomeranian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomeranian_culture) culture not Chernoles or Milograd.

EastAnglian
20-11-13, 16:12
I think the explanation may lie in the fact that the Ashkenazim are a very bottle-necked population, with an extremely small group of founding members, and an even smaller group of mtDNA founding "mothers". A big percentage of their surviving mtDNA lines stem from just four women. Some mtdna lineages typical of the Near East, or Europe, for that matter, and especially if they were minor lineages, either weren't part of the founding population, or drifted out.

In think lots more ancient dna will clarify the picture, but we do have some already.

See...

U3 in pre-modern Europe has been found in:
Dnieper-Donets Ukraine-5474-5225 B.C.
LBK Neolithic in Germany-5,000 B.C.
Wielbark Culture Poland-0-300 A.D.
Skovgaard Denmark-200 A.D.
Zavalar-Kapolna Tomb Hungary-1100 A.D.
Cumanian people in Hungary (a semi Nomadic Turkic speaking people)-1200 A.D.

None of the above has anything to do with Ashkenazim; they didn't even exist yet, and they certainly weren't in those European areas at that time.

Ed. There is also a sample dated to 4490-4335 B.C. in Israel, when there weren't yet any Jews there either.

What an insane thread, U3 Jewish?, at least the poster above had the sense to look at the ancient DNA discovered thus far.

Angela
20-11-13, 16:29
What an insane thread, U3 Jewish?, at least the poster above had the sense to look at the ancient DNA discovered thus far.

Sorry? I'm rather unsure of the meaning of your rather cryptic remark...but, yes, I think the idea is totally unsupported by any scientific data, as I tried to show. The amount of ancient dna we have at our disposal is infinitesimally small...until more becomes available, the most we can do is make logical deductions from the available modern data as correlated to history and archaeology.

adamo
20-11-13, 18:28
U3 is actually quite heavy in % across Syria, Iraq ,Jordan , parts of turkey as we can see by this map.

EastAnglian
20-11-13, 18:51
Sorry? I'm rather unsure of the meaning of your rather cryptic remark...but, yes, I think the idea is totally unsupported by any scientific data, as I tried to show. The amount of ancient dna we have at our disposal is infinitesimally small...until more becomes available, the most we can do is make logical deductions from the available modern data as correlated to history and archaeology.

I was actually highlighting your post as the only sensible one as it used references to ancient DNA found so far, no criticism. I'm all for speculation but based on scientific evidence. What's next?, are we going to resurrect the previous silly theory that U3 is Roma!

Angela
20-11-13, 20:26
I was actually highlighting your post as the only sensible one as it used references to ancient DNA found so far, no criticism. I'm all for speculation but based on scientific evidence. What's next?, are we going to resurrect the previous silly theory that U3 is Roma!

Apparently, I was in a sensitive mood today. Thanks for responding and putting me straight! :smile:

I think we're both coming from the same place. I don't come onto these sites to read opinions pulled out of the air or based on some agenda...I read them to learn something...a new piece of evidence or a new way of looking at the evidence...and, hopefully, to contribute something similar of my own.

LadyAlaise
23-04-14, 16:13
Hello all, I am a new member and This thread has been quite informative to me; I recently tested my mtDNA (HVR1 & HVR1) and my results are U3. I will have to wait for one of my brothers to do a Ytest to find out what our paternal Ydna is. There doesn't seem to be a whole heck of a lot of info out there on U3. If I had to guess (Based on my matches) my subclade of U3 is likely U3a1c...(Majority of my matches are either U3 or U3a1c). My Maternal line goes right to Ireland (County Kerry at the turn of the 1800s).

LadyAlaise
26-04-14, 06:34
Is there any more info about U3 anyone could tell me?

MarinaK
15-08-15, 14:52
My Heritage on my Mother's side is of Ashkenazic Jewry. My MtDNA Haplogroup is U3a1a.

I would really like to understand how & when the U3a Haplogroup diversified,and were separated from their people before the bottleneck occurred better. What are their true Ethnic Origins???

Could it also be possible that some of these Tribes were enslaved & conquered by either the Assyrians,Persians,Greeks,and or Romans,and that is brought them into those areas? Has there been any new Mappings,or Research Theories that may provide even more clarity and info???
TIA

Fire Haired14
15-08-15, 16:29
My Heritage on my Mother's side is of Ashkenazic Jewry. My MtDNA Haplogroup is U3a1a.

I would really like to understand how & when the U3a Haplogroup diversified,and were separated from their people before the bottleneck occurred better. What are their true Ethnic Origins???

Could it also be possible that some of these Tribes were enslaved & conquered by either the Assyrians,Persians,Greeks,and or Romans,and that is brought them into those areas? Has there been any new Mappings,or Research Theories that may provide even more clarity and info???
TIA

U3 is probably almost 40,000 years ago. Today it is most popular in West Asia, and specifically around where Israel is. It can get as high as 5% there. The vast majority of U3 in Europe and West Asia is U3a. U3 is pretty much exclusive to the Western side of Eurasia, but very rare outside of West Asia. Frequency doesn't equal origin. U3 may or may not have originated and spread out of West Asia. There are all kinds of possibilities and there hasn't been much research on U3 to get an idea what its history is.

In Pre-Historic European mtDNA(there are 100s and 100s of samples from every major era and people group from Pre-Historic Europe) U3 has only popped up in Early Neolithic farmers from about 7,000 years ago. They were immigrants from Anatolia/Turkey who acquired maybe around 5-10% native European ancestry. So, this supports a West Asian origin of U3, and a Neolithic introduction of U3 into Europe.

Your Ashkenazi lineage(U3a1a) is almost certainly Near Eastern. IMO, it's no coincidence your mom is Ashkenazi and she belongs to a typical West Asian lineage. The only way to confirm where your U3a1a comes from is if you take a FMS(full sequence of mitochondrial DNA) test, and compare your results to FMS results of U3a1as from all over West Eurasia.

Dinko
09-05-18, 22:49
My Albanian cousin is Mtdna U3b1

Miqui Rumba
27-07-18, 20:17
There are 3 main U3a1 subclades in Europe separated since 3,000 years ago: U3a1a (Eastern Europe, Baltic area), U3a1b (Central Europe, South Germany) and U3a1c (Western Europe, British Isles and North Portugal). U3b is near eastern but some british gypsies belong to this Middle Eastern clade. However, most of european gypsies belong to basal (Caucasian) U3*.

Miqui Rumba
27-07-18, 22:36
bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/track/pdf/10.1186/s12862-017-0964-5
Here you must compare haplotypic diversity among U3 subclades (table 3). There are a clade distribution by regions In table 2 also.

matadworf
09-08-18, 04:59
The Jews have practically no U3 : only 1% based on 836 samples.

I have 996 samples for Greece and an average of 3.8%.

I'm 100% Peloponnesian Greek and am U3a

Pan
17-03-19, 00:28
My mtDNA haplogroup (LivingDNA) is U3b.
I was wondering what sort of tests there may be in order to dig deeper than that...

Pan
10-04-19, 21:08
After more testing results having come in, U3b2a it is...