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Maciamo
18-10-13, 17:36
Here is the distribution map of the rarest of the nine subclades of haplogroup U in Europe and the Middle East. The origins of U are still very uncertain. Almost all European U2 fits into the U2e subclade, with only a small minority of U2d. All the other subclades are usually found in South Asia. Yet the oldest ancient mtDNA tested to date in Europe, a 30,000-year-old Cro-Magnon from the Kostenki 14 site on the Don River in southern Russia, belonged to haplogroup U2. Nowadays U2 is found in most of Europe, the Middle East and North Africa, but rarely exceeds 2%. The only area where it does exceed 2% are in western France, Denmark, Latvia, Macedonia, parts of Poland, Belarus, and among many ethnic minorities in Russia, like the Udmurts in the Ural region and most Caucasian people. On the other hand, U2 is found at much higher frequencies in India and Pakistan (up to 20% of the population). So is U2 originally European or not ?

U2 was has never been found in any Neolithic sites in Europe. Its first appearance is with the Corded Ware (Chalcolithic to Bronze Age) and Unetice (Bronze Age) cultures in central Europe, two cultures linked with the Indo-Europeans that yielded Y-DNA haplogroups R1a, and in Unetice's case also R1b. Considering its higher frequency in northern Slavic countries today, I'd say that U2 was propagated by R1a Indo-Europeans. The Tajiks, Kirghiz, Turkmen, Uzbeks and other Central Asian ethnicities with high R1a levels and Indo-European connections all have 1-2% of U2. U2 has been found at over 2% in the Altai and at trace frequencies in Mongolia, two regions also settled by R1a (and to a lesser extent R1b). That would seem enough to prove an Indo-European connection.

We could even assume that the U2 in South Asia was brought by Indo-European invaders. The only problem is that U2 subclades in South Asia aren't the same as in Europe. Could it be that the Indo-Europeans were U2* and that U2a, U2b, U2c and U2i developed in South Asia after the IE conquest ? This isn't likely considering that U2 is about 50,000 years old. I rather believe that U2 split in Central Asia during the Palaeolithic, perhaps around the time that Y-haplogroup R split into R1a, R1b and R2, and that the South Asian subclades could be linked to the diffusion of R2, while European ones are connected to both R1a and R1b. That would also explain why U2 is also found in regions which have no or very little R1a, but some R1b, like Jordan, Southwest Europe and even North Africa.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-U2-map.png

Angela
18-10-13, 21:27
Here is the distribution map of the rarest of the nine subclades of haplogroup U in Europe and the Middle East. The origins of U are still very uncertain. Almost all European U2 fits into the U2e subclade, with only a small minority of U2d. All the other subclades are usually found in South Asia. Yet the oldest ancient mtDNA tested to date in Europe, a 30,000-year-old Cro-Magnon from the Kostenki 14 site on the Don River in southern Russia, belonged to haplogroup U2. Nowadays U2 is found in most of Europe, the Middle East and North Africa, but rarely exceeds 2%. The only area where it does exceed 2% are in western France, Denmark, Latvia, Macedonia, parts of Poland, Belarus, and among many ethnic minorities in Russia, like the Udmurts in the Ural region and most Caucasian people. On the other hand, U2 is found at much higher frequencies in India and Pakistan (up to 20% of the population). So is U2 originally European or not ?

U2 was has never been found in any Neolithic sites in Europe. Its first appearance is with the Corded Ware (Chalcolithic to Bronze Age) and Unetice (Bronze Age) cultures in central Europe, two cultures linked with the Indo-Europeans that yielded Y-DNA haplogroups R1a, and in Unetice's case also R1b. Considering its higher frequency in northern Slavic countries today, I'd say that U2 was propagated by R1a Indo-Europeans. The Tajiks, Kirghiz, Turkmen, Uzbeks and other Central Asian ethnicities with high R1a levels and Indo-European connections all have 1-2% of U2. U2 has been found at over 2% in the Altai and at trace frequencies in Mongolia, two regions also settled by R1a (and to a lesser extent R1b). That would seem enough to prove an Indo-European connection.

We could even assume that the U2 in South Asia was brought by Indo-European invaders. The only problem is that U2 subclades in South Asia aren't the same as in Europe. Could it be that the Indo-Europeans were U2* and that U2a, U2b, U2c and U2i developed in South Asia after the IE conquest ? This isn't likely considering that U2 is about 50,000 years old. I rather believe that U2 split in Central Asia during the Palaeolithic, perhaps around the time that Y-haplogroup R split into R1a, R1b and R2, and that the South Asian subclades could be linked to the diffusion of R2, while European ones are connected to both R1a and R1b. That would also explain why U2 is also found in regions which have no or very little R1a, but some R1b, like Jordan, Southwest Europe and even North Africa.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-U2-map.png

FWIW, my U2e clade (northern Lunigiana, far north west Tuscany just south of the Apennine passes to Emilia) is dated by Behar to about 3600 years ago...I know it's speculation, but unless it diversified in situ, I have theorized that this points to an entry into my part of Italy about 1600 B.C., which I think would put it perhaps with the Terramare Bronze Age culture, or if not that, then the Villanovan culture. It is a very high R1b area, particularly U-152.

MOESAN
18-10-13, 22:01
I'm confused: I don't see any coherant hypothesis for this mt HG light enough in Europe: the scattered spotty distribution could indicate (as in dialectology) an old enough HG drown later by newcomers - or, lightly represented, drown by stronger older "brothers" (same upstream father) ??? surely come from East but when?

Angela
19-10-13, 17:43
I'm confused: I don't see any coherant hypothesis for this mt HG light enough in Europe: the scattered spotty distribution could indicate (as in dialectology) an old enough HG drown later by newcomers - or, lightly represented, drown by stronger older "brothers" (same upstream father) ??? surely come from East but when?

I agree that it looks like an old H/G haplogroup in Europe. Kostenki, in Russia which is 38,000 years old, was U2. U2e, which is dated by Behar to about 19,000 years ago, might have developed in Europe, somewhere in the far north east perhaps.

The oldest actual "U2e" sample found so far is again in Russia, in a hunter/gatherer context in 7500 B.C. And then for the third time in Russia around 4,000-3,000 B.C. in a Copper age context.

Following that it appears in the west in the context of Central European Copper Age cultures like Corded Ware and German Bell Beaker. So, I also think it would have spread with these eastern European and central European cultures.

That wouldn't necessarily contradict the fact that some of it may have spread west earlier with Paleolithic or Mesolithic groups. We just haven't found any U2e in the west pre Copper Age yet. If and when we do find it, hopefully they'd to be to get some fine grained resolution of the subclades, , and and then we could look at the age of the subclades as well.

epoch
19-10-13, 21:45
The elevated distribution in south-west Poland is strange. That is Silesia, an area thoroughly ethnically cleansed after the Germans lost the second world war and resettled with Poles from the rest of Poland. Poland used to lie more to the east. When Germany invaded Poland the Soviet Union did so too. The Russians never gave up their wins and after Poland got the parts east of the Oder they resettled it with Poles that fled the Russian occupation. Could that be the reason of the elevated U2 level there?

However, even when Silesia was German there were a lot of non-Germans (or to be more accurate those who identified as non-German) living there. After the first world war a plebiscite was held in which 60% chose to remain German and 40% not. Nowadays the only remaining German minority in Poland locally large enough to have German being used as administrative language is in Silesia, around Opole/Oppeln. And even if not claiming to be German a large amount of people living there today claim to be of Silesian ethnicity rather than Polish.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesia#Demographics

So, considering the fact that probably the original population has changed considerably during the twentieth century the "hotspot" seems strange.

epoch
19-10-13, 21:53
The area in Germany that has no U2 presence, is that Bavaria? Is the resolution of this map high enough to state that Bavaria, but not Saxony-Anhalt has no U2?

LeBrok
19-10-13, 23:51
The elevated distribution in south-west Poland is strange. That is Silesia, an area thoroughly ethnically cleansed after the Germans lost the second world war and resettled with Poles from the rest of Poland. Poland used to lie more to the east. When Germany invaded Poland the Soviet Union did so too. The Russians never gave up their wins and after Poland got the parts east of the Oder they resettled it with Poles that fled the Russian occupation. Could that be the reason of the elevated U2 level there?

However, even when Silesia was German there were a lot of non-Germans (or to be more accurate those who identified as non-German) living there. After the first world war a plebiscite was held in which 60% chose to remain German and 40% not. Nowadays the only remaining German minority in Poland locally large enough to have German being used as administrative language is in Silesia, around Opole/Oppeln. And even if not claiming to be German a large amount of people living there today claim to be of Silesian ethnicity rather than Polish.

I expect that some parts of Europe, especially central and eastern europe where huge population movements happened will create a mess in hg distribution and map making process. I'm not versed by any way in population genetics, but I suspect that depending on researchers, some scientific papers will show HGs according to current population distribution, some papers will adjust for original/ancestral location of HGs.
Maciamo can correct me if I'm wrong.




en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesia#Demographics

So, considering the fact that probably the original population has changed considerably during the twentieth century the "hotspot" seems strange.
Another difficulty in assessing this region is knowing how big was Germanic population who came and settled Silesia in middle ages, and beyond, to population of germanized Slavs. Also it would be interesting to know demographics of this region during slavic expansion. Was this area depopulated or perhaps still full of East Germanics or Celts?

epoch
20-10-13, 00:16
Another difficulty in assessing this region is knowing how big was Germanic population who came and settled Silesia in middle ages, and beyond, to population of germanized Slavs. Also it would be interesting to know demographics of this region during slavic expansion. Was this area depopulated or perhaps still full of East Germanics or Celts?

There is a theory that the name Silesia, being derived from slavic Slaska, originates from one of the Vandalic tribes called Sillings. There are more Slavic tribes that entered the realm the Germanic tribes seem to have abandoned during the migration period that adapted names of the former germanic tribe living there, e.g. the Warnabi settled where the Warnes once were. It seems quite possible that remains of original population was large enough to retain both name and genetic markup. So I think yes, there may very well have a substantial part of the Slavic population that had Germanic origin.

But then still, how come Silesia stands out so much from its surroundings? You'd think it would have been the same percentage as its surrounding Germanic and Slavic neighbours. I find this odd.

matbir
20-10-13, 18:03
There is a theory that the name Silesia, being derived from slavic Slaska, originates from one of the Vandalic tribes called Sillings. There are more Slavic tribes that entered the realm the Germanic tribes seem to have abandoned during the migration period that adapted names of the former germanic tribe living there, e.g. the Warnabi settled where the Warnes once were. It seems quite possible that remains of original population was large enough to retain both name and genetic markup. So I think yes, there may very well have a substantial part of the Slavic population that had Germanic origin. Outdated theory from XIX century, it was proven in 1930' by Semkowicz and Rudnicki that transition from Sil to Ślęż is very unlikely. I am jut wandering how long will it take to overcome the results of German nationalist propaganda? The name Śląsk is driven from name of river Ślęża and/or mountain with the same name which is pre-indoeuropean in origin. Latin Silesia is driven from Polish Śląsk. In case of Slavic tribes named after recorded Germanic tribes I know Warnabi and probably Rani from Rugii, these tribes are limited to the area of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.

According to Grzybowski et al. 2007 U2 was found in 4 out of 87 Upper Silesians. This region wasn’t Germanized so population is native. However the sample size is not so big.

LeBrok
20-10-13, 18:42
According to Grzybowski et al. 2007 U2 was found in 4 out of 87 Upper Silesians. This region wasn’t Germanized so population is native. However the sample size is not so big.
Even if population was Germanized it didn't mean they were not native. Language changed but population wasn't replaced.
The biggest population replacement happened after WW2. The question is if the researchers took this population replacement under consideration assigning Hg to locations?
Is this map showing pre WW2 distribution in Silesia or current one, or perhaps the data is mixed together from different research.

matbir
20-10-13, 19:29
German speaking population was displaced by soviet administration of Poland after WWII while Polish speaking population remained in Poland. Majority of Upper Silesians spoke Polish so they were not displaced, what means they are native. Opposite situation is in Lower Silesia where majority spoke German and today in this area people are descendants of after war settlers. I am afraid that data for pre-war populations in resettled areas are unavailable.
So, the map is showing after war distribution which is good approximation for pre-war distribution (native population of Upper Silesia). So this higher frequency in Lower Silesia is probably due to software which made extrapolation in area with no data.

epoch
21-10-13, 08:48
matbir

I would be interesting to see if German Sileasians have the same elevated rates. The expelling is recent enough to trace those people. If not all Germans expelled were decendants of the Ostsiedlung their U2 level could indicate that.

Maciamo
21-10-13, 09:25
Epoch, Lebrok and matbir, I wouldn't care too much about the elevated U2 in Silesia. this comes from a sample size of only 87 individuals (Grzybowski et al. 2007), which means that it could not be representative of the whole Silesian population.

Even if it was correct, since Germans have less U2 than North Slavic people I seriously doubt that the U2 is of German origin.

LeBrok
21-10-13, 15:54
Epoch, Lebrok and matbir, I wouldn't care too much about the elevated U2 in Silesia. this comes from a sample size of only 87 individuals (Grzybowski et al. 2007), which means that it could not be representative of the whole Silesian population.

Even if it was correct, since Germans have less U2 than North Slavic people I seriously doubt that the U2 is of German origin.
Thanks for source explanation.
Most likely most of Silesian Germans were of Slavic origin. Same as most of Prussian Germans were of Prussian origin.
It means that some U2 was possible removed. Unless all U2 came from the east with new migrants after WW2.

adamo
21-10-13, 19:59
Prussian; Polish Russians lol....does anyone know where in Russia the Polsky tribe migrated from ? Lol

adamo
21-10-13, 19:59
Towards their north-Central European homeland

adamo
21-10-13, 20:02
LeBrok is correct; both silesians and Prussians are historically Slavic; probably of nearby polish descent....and yet during the middle-ages, some Slavs pushed towards Central Europe. These people where ancestors to many poles, Slovaks, Czechs, Croatians and Slovenes....if anyone is passionate on his subject and would like to research were exactly these tribes came from....I suspect west-central Russia and the Ukraine for the most part.

epoch
21-10-13, 22:40
LeBrok is correct; both silesians and Prussians are historically Slavic; probably of nearby polish descent....and yet during the middle-ages, some Slavs pushed towards Central Europe. These people where ancestors to many poles, Slovaks, Czechs, Croatians and Slovenes....if anyone is passionate on his subject and would like to research were exactly these tribes came from....I suspect west-central Russia and the Ukraine for the most part.

I thought Prussians were Baltic. Their language at least was.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Baltic_Tribes_c_1200.svg

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Prussian_language

Nobody1
21-10-13, 22:55
I thought Prussians were Baltic. Their language at least was.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Baltic_Tribes_c_1200.svg

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Prussian_language

Prussians were def. Balts;
The Slavs that reached the Elbe and settled in what is now East Germany (East of Elbe and Saxon Limes) were the Polabian Slavs (Wenden)
The Sorbs in the Lausitz are the last proper survivers;

This study discusses this topic genetically;
Rebala et al 2013
http://bhusers.upf.edu/dcomas/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Rebala2013.pdf

It remains interesting for me why the Polabian Slavs recorded by Adam von Bremen or Saxo Grammaticus have so many East Germanic characteristics; Starting with the tribal names like Warnen, Winuler, Wineter i.e. Wandalen etc.

Adam von Bremen - Book II/XVIII
Sclavanien also, eine sehr ausgedehnte Landschaft Germaniens, wird von den Winulern bewohnt, welche einst Wandalen hießen. Es soll zehnmal so groß sein wie unser Sachsen,

Sile
22-10-13, 07:13
I thought Prussians were Baltic. Their language at least was.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Baltic_Tribes_c_1200.svg

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Prussian_language

The Prussians are Baltic people, you are correct they are NOT slavic nor are they Germanic.............The have close ties with ancient lithuanians and some western Finn ( kvens)

Sile
22-10-13, 07:16
Prussians were def. Balts;
The Slavs that reached the Elbe and settled in what is now East Germany (East of Elbe and Saxon Limes) were the Polabian Slavs (Wenden)
The Sorbs in the Lausitz are the last proper survivers;

This study discusses this topic genetically;
Rebala et al 2013
http://bhusers.upf.edu/dcomas/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Rebala2013.pdf

It remains interesting for me why the Polabian Slavs recorded by Adam von Bremen or Saxo Grammaticus have so many East Germanic characteristics; Starting with the tribal names like Warnen, Winuler, Wineter i.e. Wandalen etc.

Adam von Bremen - Book II/XVIII
Sclavanien also, eine sehr ausgedehnte Landschaft Germaniens, wird von den Winulern bewohnt, welche einst Wandalen hießen. Es soll zehnmal so groß sein wie unser Sachsen,

I am not entirely satisfied that the Polabian are actually slavic. I have found no migration for them

MtDNA
12-11-14, 01:08
As for Iranic-Asian U2e, they seemed to have found it within (with a high concentration, and with I5) a graveyard of a people that the Chinese called the "noblemen". Also, they were the same Central-Asians that invaded India, and got the famous moniker that also means "nobleman". Also, according to 23andme, this haplogroup migrated from Central-Asia to Europe, and was the first U-clade (and every modern human clade) to arrive in Europe.
The haplogroup was in Europe since a long time ago (>35kya), and was not Indo-Europeean in nature. The Iranian branch, however mingled with the Proto-Indo-Europeeans (I5) 15-10kya, and then went to Central-Asia, becoming the "noblemen".

gyms
12-11-14, 08:30
Indo-European?U2e1 was found in 8000 years old I2a1b mesolithic Scandinavians (Motala).

Tomenable
17-03-15, 22:19
matbir

I would be interesting to see if German Sileasians have the same elevated rates. The expelling is recent enough to trace those people. If not all Germans expelled were decendants of the Ostsiedlung their U2 level could indicate that.

As I (Litvin) explained in this thread in posts #47 - #53 (including R1b pie charts from post #47 and maps from post #52):

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?162767-Slavic-peoples-ethnogenesis&p=3467993&viewfull=1#post3467993

Many of "Germans" who migrated eastward during the "Ostsiedlung" could be descendants of - previously Germanized - Slavs.

I actually know some specific examples of such "Germans".

A 13th century merchant - Albrecht Baruth (also known as Albert Bart) - who came to Wrocław, Poland, from Baruth, the HRE.

Sources say that Albert Bart was "a Thethonia" ("from Germany") but also that he was "de genere Czurbanorum" ("Sorbian by origin").

So he was a Germanized Slavic Sorb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs), who later migrated to Poland as a "German" settler. His mtDNA and / or Y-DNA was likely Slavic.

==================================

That said, I am highly interested in Y-DNA and mtDNA of Germans from former German territories.

I am actually surprised that no scholars have dared to carry out such studies so far.

Also aDNA of West Slavs is needed for comparison. So far we only have a few samples from Usedom.

Janszky
17-11-17, 19:53
My maternal ancestors from Bavaria, I am U2e2a1.

Angela
17-11-17, 19:57
My maternal ancestors from Bavaria, I am U2e2a1.

So am I. I think it's mesolithic hunter-gatherer but picked up by Indo-European speakers. There are a few others I've seen, mostly from the British Isles but one from Switzerland. I think it may have spread out from there, or at least my line did.

ewe2
12-04-19, 19:46
This paper suggest U2 women were part of the first hunter gatherers in Northern Europe - so pre indo european

"Human paleogenetics of Europe – The known knowns and the known unknowns"

aleph
29-06-19, 00:45
Has U2e or a precursor to U2e ever been found in upper paleolithic Siberia (like the Mal'ta and AG related cultures)? Ancient North Siberia ancestors of ANE are thought to be a combination of some Sungir/Kostenki-like population (~70%) and some early east Eurasian population (~30%). I wonder if the east Eurasian segment is responsible for P1*, while the Sungir-like component could have brought U2 along with it to eastern Siberia. :thinking:

ratchet_fan
20-06-20, 00:51
Has U2e or a precursor to U2e ever been found in upper paleolithic Siberia (like the Mal'ta and AG related cultures)? Ancient North Siberia ancestors of ANE are thought to be a combination of some Sungir/Kostenki-like population (~70%) and some early east Eurasian population (~30%). I wonder if the east Eurasian segment is responsible for P1*, while the Sungir-like component could have brought U2 along with it to eastern Siberia. :thinking:

That's what I think. The original West EUrasian ydna was C1a then?

Angela
20-06-20, 00:57
Kostenki was U2 for what it's worth.

ratchet_fan
20-06-20, 01:14
Kostenki was U2 for what it's worth.

Wikipedia says his ydna was C1b. Isn't that the clade of C most common in South Asia?

Gives more evidence to the idea of a ydna C and mtdna U population spanning Spain to NE Siberia until I guess ENA K2b/P men killed all the C guys.

Dorquest
20-06-20, 13:53
My Father has the rare European U2D2. We trace the Linage back to my GGG Grandmother Frederika Sturm born 1844 Germany. SNP tracker seems to have it coming into Europe during the Mesolithic. Looks like U2D and U2C branched off from U2E.Then U2D branching off from U2C. We completed Family Tree full mtDNA. There are U2D2 linages from Denmark, Germany, Poland and Greece.