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Maciamo
21-10-13, 15:16
Here is the map of mt-haplogroup W, a lineage with strongly connected to Balto-Slavic people. The maximum frequencies of W are observed in Finland (9.6%), Hungary (5.2%), Latvia (4.1%), Macedonia (4%) and Belarus (3.7%, but over 5% if we exclude the south). The Finns and the Hungarians are both speakers of an Uralic language, which would imply an Uralic connection with haplogroup W. However other Uralic people have much less and often no W at all. For example the Saami have only 1% and the Udmurts 0%.

Regional hotspots in Catalonia, Brittany-Normandy and Ireland mirror those in the same regions for U5 and V, which are also typical of Finland and Karelia. It's hard to see how all these regions could be connected historically, unless all of them share a common Mesolithic ancestry.

Haplogroup W is also well represented among some ethnicities of the North Caucasus, such as the Karachay-Balkars (8.1%), Avars (8.1%), Adyghe-Kabardin (5.2%), three peoples who also share nearly 5% of haplogroup X.

Outside Europe, haplogroup W is also found at high frequencies among the Tajiks (6.2%), around 1.5% among the Uzbeks, Turkmens and Kazakhs, and at trace frequencies (< 0.5%) among many North Asian ethnic groups (Tuva, Yakuts, Buryats, Mongolians, Koreans, Japanese). The most likely explanation is that W was a minor lineage of the Indo-Europeans. A founder effect in the female Indo-European population could explain their oddly elevated frequency of W.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-W-map.png (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_mtdna_haplogroups.shtml#W)


I did not notice any particular pattern in the distribution of subclades (all found throughout Europe), except for W6, which appears to be the main subclade found in the Near East and the Caucasus (in addition to Central Europe).


UPDATE: a detailed page about the origins, history, distribution and subclades of haplogroup W is now available here (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_W_mtDNA.shtml).

adamo
21-10-13, 19:55
Very interesting Maciamo, mtdna W is maybe I guess a rare substratum among southern Finnish females;

Alan
21-10-13, 22:32
It's very interesting how the Caucasus shares paleolithic/mesolithic maternal lineages with East and Northeast Europe.

Sile
22-10-13, 07:18
Here is the map of mt-haplogroup W, a lineage with strongly connected to Balto-Slavic people. The maximum frequencies of W are observed in Finland (9.6%), Hungary (5.2%), Latvia (4.1%), Macedonia (4%) and Belarus (3.7%, but over 5% if we exclude the south). The Finns and the Hungarians are both speakers of an Uralic language, which would imply an Uralic connection with haplogroup W. However other Uralic people have much less and often no W at all. For example the Saami have only 1% and the Udmurts 0%.

Regional hotspots in Catalonia, Brittany-Normandy and Ireland mirror those in the same regions for U5 and V, which are also typical of Finland and Karelia. It's hard to see how all these regions could be connected historically, unless all of them share a common Mesolithic ancestry.

Haplogroup W is also well represented among some ethnicities of the North Caucasus, such as the Karachay-Balkars (8.1%), Avars (8.1%), Adyghe-Kabardin (5.2%), three peoples who also share nearly 5% of haplogroup X.

Outside Europe, haplogroup W is also found at high frequencies among the Tajiks (6.2%), around 1.5% among the Uzbeks, Turkmens and Kazakhs, and at trace frequencies (< 0.5%) among many North Asian ethnic groups (Tuva, Yakuts, Buryats, Mongolians, Koreans, Japanese). The most likely explanation is that W was a minor lineage of the Indo-Europeans. A founder effect in the female Indo-European population could explain their oddly elevated frequency of W.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-W-map.png (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_mtdna_haplogroups.shtml#W)

That blank area in eastern europe matches exactly the homeland of the first slavs.

GloomyGonzales
22-10-13, 10:38
That blank area in eastern europe matches exactly the homeland of the first slavs.

I am afraid this "homeland of the first slavs" exists only in your imaginations. There's no reason to believe that any of the major Y-DNA clades typical for Slavic people expanded from this area. Only the one who has zero knowledge about Y-DNA clades present among Slavic people could make so unsophisticated comment.

Sile
22-10-13, 11:27
I am afraid this "homeland of the first slavs" exists only in your imaginations. There's no reason to believe that any of the major Y-DNA clades typical for Slavic people expanded from this area. Only the one who has zero knowledge about Y-DNA clades present among Slavic people could make so unsophisticated comment.

I am afraid you need to argue with russian slavs and not with me. below is the latest map they use

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/3343/cifd.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/513/cifd.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

your stupidy in believing all areas that speak slavic must be slavic in origin has rotten your brain....if you had any


from 2013 lecture...same map area
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:00021_T._Die_slawische_Besiedlung_zwischen_de m_5._und_7._Jh._n._Chr._Die_Siedlungsraum_der_slaw ischen_Bevolkerung_lag_zu_der_Zeit_zwischen_Dnepr, _Westlischer_Bug_und_Karpaten._Prof_Dr_Micha%C5%82 _Parczewski_in_Sanok.JPG

there are dozens like this.

Maciamo
22-10-13, 13:01
That blank area in eastern europe matches exactly the homeland of the first slavs.

Southern Belarus and northwestern Ukraine is apparently a isolated pocket of Near Eastern farmer lineages. This region is completely different from the surrounding areas both for mtDNA and Y-DNA, but especially mtDNA. This became quite clear from the Kushniarevich et al. study (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0066499) on Belarus. Southern Belarus has the highest frequency of mt-haplogroups HV, N1a, K, T1 and U3, all typically Near Eastern. It has by far the lowest frequency of J, U4, U5 and has no H1a or W at all - all lineages linked with Mesolithic Europeans.

On the paternal side, southern Belarus has about twice more G2a, I2a1, J1, J2 and T, and a bit less R1a, R1b and oddly enough also E-V13 (but it has the only E-M123).

In my opinion, this pocket of Near Eastern lineages (+I2a1 from the Carpathians) is of the Late Neolithic Cucuteni-Trypillian culture from the Carpathians, a whole population that was displaced by the Indo-Europeans invasions of their homeland in Moldova, Romania and southwestern Ukraine.

That also explains why the maximum frequencies of R1a are found in Poland and northeastern Ukraine, but that its frequency drops in the middle.

adamo
22-10-13, 18:19
R1a is still extremely frequent tin Ukraine and Belarus though

GloomyGonzales
22-10-13, 19:43
I am afraid you need to argue with russian slavs and not with me. below is the latest map they use

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/3343/cifd.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/513/cifd.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

your stupidy in believing all areas that speak slavic must be slavic in origin has rotten your brain....if you had any


from 2013 lecture...same map area
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:00021_T._Die_slawische_Besiedlung_zwischen_de m_5._und_7._Jh._n._Chr._Die_Siedlungsraum_der_slaw ischen_Bevolkerung_lag_zu_der_Zeit_zwischen_Dnepr, _Westlischer_Bug_und_Karpaten._Prof_Dr_Micha%C5%82 _Parczewski_in_Sanok.JPG

there are dozens like this.

Very smart argument. There are ~143 mil Russians and if somebody of them made this stupid map it does not mean that this map has something to do with reality and reflects common views of Russian scientists.




your stupidy in believing all areas that speak slavic must be slavic in origin has rotten your brain....if you had any



Where did I write that "all areas that speak slavic must be slavic in origin"? Are you retarded or what? Do not ascribe to me your own stupid ideas.
I just said that taking into account current information about major Y-DNA clades (especially R1a) present in Slavic people the idea postulating migration of Slavic people from Ukraine looks absolutely impossible and stupid and only those who know nothing about R1a clades in Central and Eastern Europe can support this stupid idea.

Fire Haired
23-10-13, 03:02
Maciamo I don't understand why you generalize Indo Europeans, Balto Slavs, etc. The Indo European speakers 6,000ybp were not genetically a unified ethnic group. They did not arrive from Mars they derived from early humans so had probably some very similar mtDNA haplogroups to people they spread their language to(forced upon). Balkan Slavs genetically are very different from Polish, Russians, Ukrainians, etc. Of course those other slavs are also different rom each other. Autosomally Balkan Slavs have much higher Meditreaen, west Asian, and southwest Asian and less North Euro. They obviously have mainly ancestry from people who lived in the Balkans before Slavic languages spread which was as recent as the middle ages. I doubt there is a Uralic connection with mtDNA W since Y DNA N1c is so unpopular in Hungarians. But y DNA of high ranking ones from the middle ages so far show only N1c. I also don't understand why now your connected U5, V, and W in Finland, Catlonia, Brittany-Normandy, and Ireland when I know at least their subclades differ very much and I think you do too. You keep generalizing "the Indo Europeans" when around Tajiks you mean Indo Iranians.

Fire Haired
23-10-13, 03:14
Southern Belarus and northwestern Ukraine is apparently a isolated pocket of Near Eastern farmer lineages. This region is completely different from the surrounding areas both for mtDNA and Y-DNA, but especially mtDNA. This became quite clear from the on Belarus. Southern Belarus has the highest frequency of mt-haplogroups HV, N1a, K, T1 and U3, all typically Near Eastern. It has by far the lowest frequency of J, U4, U5 and has no H1a or W at all - all lineages linked with Mesolithic Europeans.

On the paternal side, southern Belarus has about twice more G2a, I2a1, J1, J2 and T, and a bit less R1a, R1b and oddly enough also E-V13 (but it has the only E-M123).

In my opinion, this pocket of Near Eastern lineages (+I2a1 from the Carpathians) is of the Late Neolithic Cucuteni-Trypillian culture from the Carpathians, a whole population that was displaced by the Indo-Europeans invasions of their homeland in Moldova, Romania and southwestern Ukraine.

That also explains why the maximum frequencies of R1a are found in Poland and northeastern Ukraine, but that its frequency drops in the middle.

The N1a found in Neolithic Europeans is actually a rare European subclade. I think there is still debate if any mtDNa haplogroups besides U5, U2e, and U4 can be connected with Mesolithic Europe. Looking at the similarities between deep H subclades acroos Europe I am starting to understand why so many people favor Neolithic spread. But the weird thing is neither for J, T, or H subclades in Europe can you find a possible source in the Near east in the last 10,000 years. Also when you talk about y DNA I2a1 in far eastern Europe don't you mean i2a1b M4253 why not just say that. But I do think you may be finding a connection with mtDNa and Y DNA.

LeBrok
23-10-13, 04:00
Southern Belarus and northwestern Ukraine is apparently a isolated pocket of Near Eastern farmer lineages.

In my opinion, this pocket of Near Eastern lineages (+I2a1 from the Carpathians) is of the Late Neolithic Cucuteni-Trypillian culture from the Carpathians, a whole population that was displaced by the Indo-Europeans invasions of their homeland in Moldova, Romania and southwestern Ukraine.

Ultimately it will be the case I think.

adamo
23-10-13, 14:31
U is THE oldest European mtdna line, having first arrived on the outskirts of northeastern Europe some 50,000 years ago. H was next at probably 30,000-20,000 years. J and T were Neolithic (10,000-15,000) years I would estimate.

adamo
23-10-13, 14:33
What is clear is that U has been in Europe longest, maybe even since early Paleolithic period. J,T,K probably arrived much later during the Neolithic. Mtdna H and V are in the middle of U and the others with a middle/late Paleolithic origin.

DuPidh
30-11-16, 17:57
That blank area in eastern europe matches exactly the homeland of the first slavs.

What is Balto-Slavic? Slavs of Baltic, or Slavs mixed with something else?

Huitzilopochtli
30-11-16, 18:39
What is Balto-Slavic? Slavs of Baltic, or Slavs mixed with something else?

Balto-Slavic is the common ancestor of the Baltic and Slavic languages that separated long after the breakup of PIE.