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Maciamo
23-10-13, 19:49
Here is the distribution map of mt-haplogroup J.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-J-map.png

Although it hasn't been found yet in Mesolithic or Palaeolithic Europe, it is possible (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28418-MtDNA-J-amp-T-colonised-Europe-from-the-Near-East-in-the-late-Paleolithic-amp-Mesolithic) that J was already in Europe before the Neolithic, especially for J2a1 and J1c, which are rare outside Europe.

Samples have been identified J samples (J1*, J1c and J2b1a) from various Neolithic sites, including Linear Pottery culture (LBK) in Central Europe, the Cardium Pottery culture in southern France, Megalithic cultures in northern Spain, and the Funnelbeaker Culture in Germany and Sweden.

Haplogroup J has been found in Bronze Age samples from the Corded Ware culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture) (J1c and J2b1a) and Urnfield culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture) (J1b and J1b1a). The Corded Ware culture is associated with the expansion of Y-haplogroup R1a from the northern Russian steppe, and in light of the continuity with Neolithic samples from Central Europe it can be assumed that J1c and J2b1a maternal lineages were not brought by the newcomers, but absorbed by the male invaders.

The lack of correlation between mtDNA J and Y-DNA R1a is also evident from the facta that mtDNA J has never been found in Bronze Age sites linked that yielded R1a samples in Russia, Central Asia, Siberia or Mongolia. The oldest J sample in North Asia are from the Iron Age Scytho-Siberian Pazyryk culture (6th to 3rd century BCE) and the Iron Age Xiongnu culture, and could have been brought by later migrations from southern Central Asia, notably by the Scythians.

On the other hand, J1b has never been found in Europe before the Bronze Age and was very probably brought by the Indo-Europeans carrying R1b paternal lineages. J1b has also been found among African tribes (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#mtDNA) carrying R1b-V88 lineages, which would presume that J1b was one of the original maternal lineages found in R1b populations at least since the Early Neolithic (see R1b history (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#origins)). The absence of J1b in Bronze Age sites associated with the expansion of the R1a branches of the Indo-Europeans (Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian) supports that European J1b is exclusively associated with ancient R1b populations.

UPDATE: check the new Eupedia page dedicated to mt-haplogroup J (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J_mtDNA.shtml).

elghund
24-10-13, 00:15
Here is the distribution map of mt-haplogroup J.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-J-map.png

The origins of J are complicated. Although it hasn't been found yet in Mesolithic or Palaeolithic Europe, it is possible (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28418-MtDNA-J-amp-T-colonised-Europe-from-the-Near-East-in-the-late-Paleolithic-amp-Mesolithic) that J was already in Europe before the Neolithic. Samples have been identified from various Neolithic sites, including Linear Pottery culture (LBK) in Central Europe, the Cardium Pottery culture in southern France, Megalithic cultures in northern Spain, and the Funnelbeaker Culture in Germany and Sweden.

During the Bronze Age, J has been found in the Urnfield and Corded Ware sites. However I would tend to think that it represent the maternal lineages inherited from the Neolithic rather than new lineages brought by R1a/R1b conquerors. Indeed, mtDNA J has never been found in Bronze Age sites linked with the Indo-Europeans in Russia, Ukraine, Central Asia, Siberia or Mongolia, although J is present in these regions today. The oldest J sample in North Asia are from the Iron Age Scytho-Siberian Pazyryk culture (6th to 3rd century BCE) and the Iron Age Xiongnu culture, and could have been brought by later migrations from southern Central Asia, notably by the Scythians.

It is hard to explain the various hotspots of J in Europe: the Western Isles of Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Denmark, the French Pyrénées and Aragon...

In Denmark's case, J probably came through the LBK culture from Germany, and might have prospered due to a founder effect or some intrinsic evolutionary advantage. It has been claimed that carriers of haplogroup J have a greater resistance to cold, and that this may be why it was positively selected in Scandinavia. That could also apply for the British Isles, Estonia and the adjacent Pskov oblast in Russia. This would also make sense for the Arabian peninsula where night time temperature often fall very low.

The Pyrénées, Aragon and Sardinia could be seen as relatively isolated regions where Neolithic lineages survived better various invasions through the ages.

Is there enough data on J1c to do a map on that subclade? Would it make the hotspots in Western Europe?

Wilhelm
24-10-13, 00:29
Some of these mtDNA haplogroups are so random..it's hard to give them an explanation..

Maciamo
24-10-13, 10:07
Is there enough data on J1c to do a map on that subclade? Would it make the hotspots in Western Europe?

No, I have almost no data on separate J subclades. Anyway J1c is by far the largest J subclade in Europe, representing about half of all J lineages.

alchamb
14-11-13, 14:47
thank you for the maps -- at long last some proper mtDNA maps -- very intersting -- my maternal ancestors are from western scotland so its likely i am what sykes calls a sea Jasmine -- J is strong in the west my last known maternal ancestor was an agnes MacDonald from western scotland --- i believe MacDonald was from the isles .

adamo
14-11-13, 14:50
You will want to remove "Celto-Germanic" from your title; you are mtdna J and y-DNA J-M67; this is VERY rare for an Englishman in that your genetic composition is of Neolithic and middle eastern origin.

adamo
14-11-13, 14:50
Mtdna J originated and peaks in frequency in the Middle East and M67 probably originated near Georgia-0/ArmeniaArmenia

adamo
14-11-13, 15:12
What nationality are you; your flag indicates BritishBritish

adamo
14-11-13, 23:20
There's no way that a y-DNA J-M67 and an mtdna J is considered Celto-Germanic; I don't know what your other haplogroups are but you fit better in turkey or Iraq than as a German or Polish man.

adamo
14-11-13, 23:21
Mtdna J peaks in parts of Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen etc. I believe; J-M67 peaks near Georgia/turkey/Armenia and among Chechens for example.

MOESAN
15-11-13, 14:24
You will want to remove "Celto-Germanic" from your title; you are mtdna J and y-DNA J-M67; this is VERY rare for an Englishman in that your genetic composition is of Neolithic and middle eastern origin.

Adamo, what you say about HG Y and mt is very true but if DNA-Y and DNA-mt percentages can tell us something about a big population concerning autosomals, at the INFIVIDUAL level it says nothing statistically available - it is as trying to tell the originS of a person relying on his patronymic name (on the females side I find no evident comparison as names); the Y and mt HGs tell very very few about the total genome -
+ mt J is srtrong enough in the western part of Britain - as a whole I think it is a neolithical mt-HG (but who can bit sure?)

adamo
15-11-13, 17:37
Very interesting to see a French man belonging to the youngest P312* sub-group; the "islands" insular Celtic R-L21. You represent about 5-10% of French males in total with a high in the Bretagne region of north-western France. north Italy, Germany, Switzerland and parts of Austria, Spain, Denmark and Sweden have 1-5%. Belgium and France have 5-10%. Much of northernmost Spain has 5-10% and all of France has 5-10% except for the province of Brittany were as much as 40-50% are R-L21. By the time we reach nearby provinces such as Normandie, Anjou, Maine the frequencies drop from 30-50% to only 15-20% of males; most of France actually has 5-10%. Scotland has 50-60% R-L21 and wales has 40-60%. England has about 35-40% on average with highs in the north and west of 40-50% and lows towards the south and east of 30-15%. Ireland has more than 75% of it.

adamo
15-11-13, 17:39
In fact, the M-222 subclade of R-L21 is said to have originated on Ireland as of course it is by far most frequent there (but also found on occasion on the nearby islands coast to the east).

adamo
15-11-13, 17:53
As for mtdna J; it represents about 8-10% of European females. It is a more recent Neolithic marker that arrived more recently with ancient agriculturalists and Jews of course. Mtdna J is found in 10% of Armenian, Croatian, Czech, Estonian, Greek, German, Hungarian, Libyan, Dutch, Norwegian, Palestinian, Slovenian, Slovakian, and Swiss women. 15% of welsh, 11% of Irish and 9% of Syrian and Turkish women are mtdna J, for example. It is spread in both European and middle eastern countries due to it's spread from the Middle East towards Europe during the Neolithic revolution 10,000-15,000 years ago. In Aragon, Spain, it represents 16% of female lineages. Oddly frequencies are slightly higher towards the British isles (Wales,Ireland,England) and near holland Germany,Denmark 10-15% and towards the southeast near Greece than anywhere else in Europe. 13% of Scottish women are J. Kurds have about 15% and england that's 12%, Iraq, Denmark and Iceland oddly have 14%.

adamo
15-11-13, 18:10
The worlds highest frequencies for mtdna J are found across east-central turkey, Syria, Iraq, and the western half of Armenia not to mention parts of northeastern Saudi Arabia at 25% of females throughout these regions. Parts of north-central Saudi Arabia, western Iran, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia and the Caucasus, Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Germany, holland, Belgium, and Austria have as high as 20%. Yemen, Oman, southern Saudi Arabia, UAE, most of Iran, Denmark, Croatia, Slovenia, eastern England have 15%. Most of Scandinavia and France including Scotland and Ireland or Italy have 10%.

adamo
15-11-13, 18:39
When mtdna J types are found in Europe; one of two hypotheses is established for it's origin; it is either recent, which means probably that Jews during the medieval period such as Ashkenazi Jews (Eastern European Jews) females brought it over in low frequency, or, if it isn't ultimately of Jewish origin (many Jewish communities set up across Germany, Poland, Ukraine, Belarus; even Italy, Spain, Portugal and France) then it is probably of far more ancient Neolithic origin, having arrived 10,000-15,000 years ago from the Middle East were it is still today most frequently found (particularly in regions associated with agriculture such as turkey,Syria,Iraq,Western Iran but even Saudi Arabia and Yemen for example. Thus, by the time the Middle Ages would arrive, many of these mtdna J women of Europe would long have been incorporated as a regular "substratum" among the more pre-eminent Celtic or Slavic or whatever host populations; being of French, Danish or German origin and never quite grasping or realizing that they had a rare Neolithic middle eastern maternal marker.

adamo
15-11-13, 18:55
R-L21 is most frequent in Ireland (75%), Scotland (55% estimate), Wales (45% estimate) England (35% estimate) Iceland (15-20%) and France (10%). It becomes most frequent paternal haplogroup in Bretagne region of France I believe (40-50%) but frequencies die off quickly towards literally adjacent provinces. Nearby Normandie and Anjou only have 15-20%. Frequencies in the center, south and east of the country are more like 5-10% (90% of the country's territorial mass.) The region sure does seem to be related to "la Bretagne", but it lacks the Celto-Germanic (R1b U-106) lineages of the English, meaning either that this migration from England to northwestern France either took place BEFORE the arrival of Germanics to England, or that it didn't arrive from England at all, but more likely from Ireland. We would have to see the age of the Bretagne region's R1b L21 samples to determine wether they are older or younger than both those on Ireland and on the adjoining island of United Kingdom. It may be the old remnant founder effect, meaning that the first and oldest R-L21 clades are the French ones, but according to the name and history of the place, I personally believe there's a connection with Ireland here.

Maciamo
15-11-13, 19:02
There's no way that a y-DNA J-M67 and an mtdna J is considered Celto-Germanic; I don't know what your other haplogroups are but you fit better in turkey or Iraq than as a German or Polish man.

First, mtDNA has almost nothing to do with ethnicity since it only represents 0.000005% of the human genome. It's amazing that you have managed to write 1500 posts on a forum mostly dedicated to mtDNA and Y-DNA and you still don't know that.

Secondly, almost all top-level mtDNA haplogroups except L originated in the Middle East or Northeast Africa during the Palaeolithic. Without looking at the deep subclades knowing one's mtDNA haplogroup is pretty much useless for population genetics. Haplogroup J surely reached Europe sometime between 15,000 and 7,000 years ago. There is a high chance that it has been present in Europe for longer than Y-haplogroup R1b.

Considering the high frequency of many J subclades (esp. J1c) in Western/Central Europe and Scandinavia, I don't see anything wrong with calling them Celto-Germanic, even if they were present there well before the Indo-Europeans' arrival. After all Celtic and Germanic cultures only developed from the merger of Proto-Indo-Europeans with Neolithic inhabitants of these regions. Since those Celtic and Germanic blends owe a lot to female Neolithic lineages (including a considerable number of assimilated Mesolithic lineages), it makes sense to see all typically western, central and northern European mtDNA lineages as Celto-Germanic too. Evolution, cultures and languages didn't stop during the Neolithic.

adamo
15-11-13, 19:08
I don't call mtdna J Celtic because it's been in Europe for much shorter than forms of mtdna U for example; different haplogroup, different time and place of origin and different migration. Certain particular haplogroups are more likely to be found in; and in this sense, characterize certain populations.

Sile
15-11-13, 20:57
You will want to remove "Celto-Germanic" from your title; you are mtdna J and y-DNA J-M67; this is VERY rare for an Englishman in that your genetic composition is of Neolithic and middle eastern origin.

maybe the term celto-germanic is completely wrong and should be replaced by term Alpine-Refurgium , as these people where neither germanic, nor italic, nor slavic, ............an ancient people from the term "Old Europe". who comprised of many Mtdna and Ydna markers and subclades...........even "odd" markers like L ydna.

Jackson
16-11-13, 01:25
There's no way that a y-DNA J-M67 and an mtdna J is considered Celto-Germanic; I don't know what your other haplogroups are but you fit better in turkey or Iraq than as a German or Polish man.
Well he might be autosomally quite normal for the British isles but have unusual direct lineages.

adamo
16-11-13, 01:47
Well anyways; his direct paternal and maternal lineages are curiously of more recent middle eastern origin than most of his countries R1b and minda H, U compatriots; J finds it's origins and highest frequencies in the Middle East (literally both lineages lol) He is J-M67 (particular subclade found in like, what? 1% of British males?) which clearly has frequency peaks in the Caucasus region of turkey,Georgia,Armenia and Chechnya etc.) and mtdna J which as well originated with agriculturalists in the Middle East is quite rare in Europe as well.

adamo
16-11-13, 01:49
What do europe's oldest haplogroup samples come up positive for?

Jackson
16-11-13, 02:49
What do europe's oldest haplogroup samples come up positive for?
I think U5, U4 and apparently some H in Iberia as well.

adamo
16-11-13, 02:57
Good answer but I meant y-dna; what is this story of the first samples being F, G; what exactly where euro's male haplogroups; I've always said I and R1b but let's here what really smart guys like Maciamo have to say

adamo
04-12-13, 19:28
This group of individuals also descended from a woman in the R branch of the mtdna tree. The divergent genetic lineage that constitutes haplogroup J indicates that she lived sometime around 40,000 years ago. Haplogroup J has a very wide distribution, and is present as Far East as the Indus Valley bordering India and Pakistan, and as far south as the Arabian peninsula. It is also common in eastern and Northern Europe. Although this haplogroup was present during the early and middle Upper Paleolithic, J is largely considered one of the main female genetic signatures of the agriculturalist Neolithic expansions. While groups of hunter-gatherers and subsistence fishermen had been occupying much of Eurasia for tens of thousands of years, around 10,000 years ago a group of modern humans living in the Fertile Crescent (present day eastern turkey and northern Syria) began domesticating the plants, nuts and seeds they had been collecting. What resulted were the world's first agriculturalists, and this new cultural era is typically referred to as the Neolithic. Groups of individuals able to support larger populations with this reliable food source began migrating out of the Middle East, bringing their new technology with them. By then, humans had already settled much of the surrounding areas, but this new agricultural technology proved to be too successful to ignore, and the surrounding groups quickly copied these new immigrants agriculture was quickly and widely adopted, but the lineages carried by these Neolithic expansions are found today at low frequencies. Haplogroup J, of course, has greater diversity in the Middle East than in Europe, indicating a homeland for J's most recent common ancestor somewhere near the Levant. It reaches it's highest frequency in Arabia, comprising about 25% of Bedouin and Yemeni female lineages. But genetic evidence indicates that the higher incidence is more reflective of low population sizes or the occurrence of a founder event, rather than this region being the actual geographic origin point of J.

alchamb
13-08-14, 00:09
just to let you know that I have no intention of changing my settings - ydna and mtdna are very thin slices of ones ancestoral tree - I don't look middle eastern and my indirect ancestors are scots English and irish - yes jm67 is rare but mtdna J actually isn't that rare in relation to all groups outside of H - thanks for the advice though-- no known jewish ancetors in my family tree either side - fair haired tall and blue eyed and turn red just seeing the sun , anyhow very interesting information . thanks forgot to say . my dads english .. i reckon his m67 ancestors were romanised etruscans ... my mum scots from the west .. j* .. could anyone shed some light on why mtdna j is cold resistant ? this confuses me as it spent the ice age in the mid east . thanks again all . :-)

Boreas
03-05-15, 16:21
Is there any map about subclades of haplogroup J (mtdna) ?

or any chart about it? For example it here "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MtDna_haplogroups_by_populations"

You can see nearly 10 subclades of haplogroup U (u1-u2...) but all Js are under one name.

Harry D. Watson
10-06-15, 13:38
I've just been looking at my mtDNA J1c2 matches, and I see that I have an HVR1 8 out of 10 match and an HVR2 14 out of 14 match with a descendant of Charles Martel, founder of the Carolingian Empire and grandfather of Charlemagne. Maybe it should be me and not Prime Minister David Cameron going over to Europe to boss the Europeans about and tell them what to do. Mind you, there must be millions of people out there who are as close or closer genetically to Charles Martel than me.
I have a fairly close match with King Richard III too.

Harry (1st post)

Ben
16-01-17, 19:21
well put!!!!!!!

New Englander
05-02-17, 03:08
I cant seem to find much about J1c, other than it was pre Neolithic.

Seanp
07-02-17, 01:44
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-utJBIHUwpXU/Tf9ZMlhE3iI/AAAAAAAAAls/7XG2ZV3Wz3g/s1600/mtDNA_J1c.jpg



In the case of J1c, it is mentioned in the text that a sublineage J1c2d, defined by a transition in site 16366, is common among Basques and that this particular lineage has also been found in some other populations, specifically the Irish (McEvoy et al. 2004).


Besides these two, the most common mtDNA lineages among Basques are H1, H3 and V. Among these, this paper finds that sublineages H1j1 and V10 are notably common in the country.


Overall and based in an array of older papers, the authors feel that they must support the post-LGM recolonization theory, which would have originated from a Franco-Cantabrian refuge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Cantabrian_region). However they argue that U5b1b, which has been claimed to be of similar origin for being found in remote populations such as the Berbers or Saami (Achilli et al. 2005) has not been found in their survey of (a fraction) of the Franco-Cantabrian refuge. Here I must say that while the datum is surely valid, the argument is somewhat weak however because they have not sampled all the Franco-Cantabrian refuge but just a small fraction: 2/3 of what is now France remain largely unresearched.

New Englander
07-02-17, 01:48
Im J1c8. All I know is that it came came England or Scotland from the Currier family.

SherLee
11-05-18, 00:15
I’m new. My maternal side is J1c7, my paternal side is J-M67. Where oh where did I originate from? I’m mostly British, Irish, French, German

Joey37
01-07-18, 14:40
'What Sykes calls a Sea Jasmine'...I like that...I am a Sea Jasmine...my maternal line comes from County Waterford in Ireland. I also prefer the cold to the heat, I don't know if it is tolerance. But the highest recorded temperature in south Ireland was 87, so heat tolerance was not selected for!