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Maciamo
29-10-13, 00:00
Here comes the map of haplogroup HV, the mother of H and V, which appears to have originated in the Middle East. HV peaks in Mesopotamia and Iran. In Europe it reflects the establishment of some Neolithic farmers (esp. between Bulgaria and southern Belarus), which may correspond to Y-haplogroups J and T, rather than E1b1b or G2a.

The high frequency of HV in Calabria and Sicily is more difficult to explain since it far exceeds the levels observed in Greece. They may be due to founder effects among either the Neolithic or Greek colonisers. On the other hand the percentage in Tuscany is similar to that of Turkey, the presumed homeland of the Etruscans.

I have to double check the sources for Iceland as nothing can explain the 3.6% of HV reported.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-HV-map.png (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_mtdna_haplogroups.shtml#HV)

N.B. : This map does not include the data for HV0 (aka pre-V), which was merged with the data for haplogroup V.

Eldritch
29-10-13, 00:26
I wonder how Bulgarians have so much of it and Macedonians which are basically the same stock as them have in western part below 0 ?

elghund
29-10-13, 01:04
Here comes the map of haplogroup HV, the mother of H and V, which appears to have originated in the Middle East. HV peaks in Mesopotamia and Iran. In Europe it reflects the establishment of some Neolithic farmers (esp. between Bulgaria and southern Belarus), which may correspond to Y-haplogroups J and T, rather than E1b1b or G2a.

The high frequency of HV in Calabria and Sicily is more difficult to explain since it far exceeds the levels observed in Greece. They may be due to founder effects among either the Neolithic or Greek colonisers. On the other hand the percentage in Tuscany is similar to that of Turkey, the presumed homeland of the Etruscans.

I have to double check the sources for Iceland as nothing can explain the 3.6% of HV reported.



If V was born of HV and it was born in Iberia, how could HV be restricted to Neolithic or later migrations to Europe?

Goga
29-10-13, 01:19
If V was born of HV and it was born in Iberia, how could HV be restricted to Neolithic or later migrations to Europe?
Maybe different more 'recent' subclades of HV migrated later into Europe? Btw, I do think that some 'recent' subclades of HV (like mine type) migrated much later into Europe. Maybe with the Jews or even Iranic Alanians...

Goga
29-10-13, 01:22
Here comes the map of haplogroup HV, the mother of H and V, which appears to have originated in the Middle East. HV peaks in Mesopotamia and Iran. In Europe it reflects the establishment of some Neolithic farmers (esp. between Bulgaria and southern Belarus), which may correspond to Y-haplogroups J and T, rather than E1b1b or G2a.Great work like always. How many hours of work do you put into these maps? This is madness. Thanks! HV in Bulgaria and Ukraine can be linked to Iranic tribes from the Eastern Steppes.

Goga
29-10-13, 01:27
"Scholars claim Bulgarians descended from Iran. The place of origin of the Ancient Bulgarians is most likely Eastern Iran, a group of anthropologists and scientists have claimed after an exploratory trip to the Persian lands." : http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=117903

Goga
29-10-13, 01:36
There is also a lot J2a in Bulgaria. This mtDNA haplogroup HV correspondents very well with 'Iranian' Y-DNA haplogroup J2a! "Bulgarian expedition travels to Iran in search of roots" - http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=117192

Alan
29-10-13, 01:39
I assume Haplogroup HV was present in Europe already during paleolithicum, but most of it probably arrived in Europe during neolithic period.

albanopolis
29-10-13, 01:44
30% of Macedonia's population is Albanian. Albanians score low in this clade. So this could be partly responsable for low macedonian infusion of this haplogroup. What amazes me is the fact that Italians are heavyly of Middle Eastern heretage in male and female side. So are the Greeks but that fact was well known for them.

Angela
29-10-13, 04:34
Here comes the map of haplogroup HV, the mother of H and V, which appears to have originated in the Middle East. HV peaks in Mesopotamia and Iran. In Europe it reflects the establishment of some Neolithic farmers (esp. between Bulgaria and southern Belarus), which may correspond to Y-haplogroups J and T, rather than E1b1b or G2a.

The high frequency of HV in Calabria and Sicily is more difficult to explain since it far exceeds the levels observed in Greece. They may be due to founder effects among either the Neolithic or Greek colonisers. On the other hand the percentage in Tuscany is similar to that of Turkey, the presumed homeland of the Etruscans.

I have to double check the sources for Iceland as nothing can explain the 3.6% of HV reported.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-HV-map.png (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_mtdna_haplogroups.shtml#HV)

The first thing that I thought of in terms of Calabria was the R1b1 Ht35 map. It'a a pretty good fit for Italy as a whole and some other areas as well.

Here's a link to it: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28935-New-map-of-R1b-ht35-%28L23-L51-L11-Z2103%29

Sile
29-10-13, 06:56
I assume Haplogroup HV was present in Europe already during paleolithicum, but most of it probably arrived in Europe during neolithic period.

As per link
http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2013/10/new-adna-capture-method-plus-some-data.html
the HV and U3b are true Thracian markers and not Bulgarian as these ancient markers are from the iron-age. Bulgarians IIRC came into modern bulgaria around 800AD, thats about 1500 years difference

Sile
29-10-13, 07:08
Here comes the map of haplogroup HV, the mother of H and V, which appears to have originated in the Middle East. HV peaks in Mesopotamia and Iran. In Europe it reflects the establishment of some Neolithic farmers (esp. between Bulgaria and southern Belarus), which may correspond to Y-haplogroups J and T, rather than E1b1b or G2a.

The high frequency of HV in Calabria and Sicily is more difficult to explain since it far exceeds the levels observed in Greece. They may be due to founder effects among either the Neolithic or Greek colonisers. On the other hand the percentage in Tuscany is similar to that of Turkey, the presumed homeland of the Etruscans.

I have to double check the sources for Iceland as nothing can explain the 3.6% of HV reported.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-HV-map.png (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_mtdna_haplogroups.shtml#HV)

Do you have any data on the friulian component?. what town/s?

I ask, because history states that a Roman Heruli legion was formed and the heruli women and children where placed in the friulian town of Concordia. according to baltic history, the heruli came from samland in modern latvia

Nobody1
29-10-13, 07:20
As per link
http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2013/10/new-adna-capture-method-plus-some-data.html
the HV and U3b are true Thracian markers and not Bulgarian as these ancient markers are from the iron-age. Bulgarians IIRC came into modern bulgaria around 800AD, thats about 1500 years difference

Great find;
But the Iron-age corpses in connection with this map (mtDNA HV) also shows that modern-day Bulgarians have a notable Iron-age Thracian DNA continuity (also concerning mtDNA U3);
Other peoples in the south Balkans do not have this ancient (Iron-age) DNA continuity of mtDNA HV/U3; which is strange especially in the case of Albanians who seem to have none of either the 2 mtDNA Hg's;

Sicily and Calabria look a bit like Magna Graecia propably a denser concentration remained than in modern-day Greece;

Sile
29-10-13, 07:43
Great find;
But the Iron-age corpses in connection with this map also shows that modern-day Bulgarians have a notable Iron-age Thracian DNA continuity;
Which other peoples in the south Balkans do not have - this ancient (Iron-age) DNA continuity;

;

True, but graves are iron-age and bulgars came from north of Crimea later. we have 100% guarantee they are not bulgar.
It also indicates that modern bulgarians have some or most ancient thracian and the high percentage in the map must be mostly thracian instead of bulgar.

The ancient thracians must have come from eastern persia or kurds initially

kamani
29-10-13, 08:07
Other peoples in the south Balkans do not have this ancient (Iron-age) DNA continuity of mtDNA HV/U3; which is strange especially in the case of Albanians who seem to have none of either the 2 mtDNA Hg's;

Albanians have more HV than everybody else in the Balkans, according to Bosch et al. About U3, I would say 1-2% maybe, which is hard to pick up in small samples.

Nobody1
29-10-13, 08:19
True, but graves are iron-age and bulgars came from north of Crimea later. we have 100% guarantee they are not bulgar.

Yes of course that goes with out saying;
Iron-age Bulgaria = Indo-European Thracians / Thraco-Cimmerian complex
+ all available Historical documentations of the Ancient scholars;

Modern-day Bulgarians are from the Thracians plus medieval Bulgars; Your find and this map clearly illustrate the Thracian heritage and continuity;


The ancient thracians must have come from eastern persia or kurds initially

Thracians were Indo-Europeans and therefor from the Urheimat like all other Indo-Europeans;
And judging by the Thraco-Cimmerian complex the Thracians came via the Danube from North Black sea to the East Balkans and after the Indo-European Hittite empire collapsed - the Thracians (several tribes) crossed into Anatolia from Europe;

Strabo - Book VII/III
And the Phrygians themselves are Brigians, a Thracian tribe, as are also the Mygdonians, the Bebricians, the Medobithynians, the Bithynians, and the Thynians, and, I think, also the Mariandynians. These peoples, to be sure, have all utterly quitted Europe, but the Mysi have remained there.

Kristian Kristiansen - Europe before History (1999)
Classical sources mention between fifty and one hundred Thracian tribes.....Thracian culture was heavily influenced by the Pontic cultural koine around the Black Sea, by Macedonia, and by the neighbouring states on the coast of Asia Minor. This takes us back to the 9th and 8th centuries.....In a survey of Macedonian and Thracian bronzes Jan Bouzek (1973;1974) demonstrated the emergence of a circum-Pontic or Thraco-Cimmerian cultural koine from 800 BC. Here old Urnfield traditions in metalwork mixed with new Cimmerian influences originating in the Caucasian region,

Nobody1
29-10-13, 08:22
Albanians have more HV than everybody else in the Balkans, according to Bosch et al. About U3, I would say 1-2% maybe, which is hard to pick up in small samples.

I thought so;
Thats why i said its strange 'which is strange especially in the case of Albanians'
Not sure if its more than everyone else (especially compared to Bulgarians);

Nobody1
29-10-13, 08:46
This study about Cro-Magnon mtDNA (Paglicci-25 & Paglicci-12) from South Italy ~23-24000 years ago;

Caramelli et al 2003
http://www.pnas.org/content/100/11/6593.full#aff-1

Paglicci-25 has the following motifs: +7,025 AluI, 00073A, 11719G, and 12308A. Therefore, this sequence belongs to either haplogroups HV or pre-HV, two haplogroups rare in general but with a comparatively high frequencies among today's Near-Easterners (35). Paglicci-12 shows the motifs 00073G, 10873C, 10238T, and AACC between nucleotide positions 10397 and 10400, which allows the classification of this sequence into the macrohaplogroupN,containing haplogroups W, X, I, N1a, N1b, N1c, and N*. Following the definition given in ref. 36, the presence of a single mutation in 16,223 within HRVI suggests a classification of Paglicci-12 into the haplogroup N*, which is observed today in several samples from the Near East and, at lower frequencies, in the Caucasus (35).

If Paglicci-25 (Cro-Magnon) is mtDNA HV than forget about Magna Graecia and the Greeks; Cro-Magnons at least 22,000 years earlier;

Maciamo
29-10-13, 09:04
If V was born of HV and it was born in Iberia, how could HV be restricted to Neolithic or later migrations to Europe?

It isn't certain that V was born in Iberia. Pre-V (aka HV0) is found mostly in Northwest Africa, so I would rather assume that V first appeared there then moved to Iberia toward the end of the last Ice Age. A founder effect in the colonisers would explain why Europeans are mostly V, while Northwest Africans are both pre-V and V.

Maciamo
29-10-13, 10:44
Do you have any data on the friulian component?. what town/s?

I ask, because history states that a Roman Heruli legion was formed and the heruli women and children where placed in the friulian town of Concordia. according to baltic history, the heruli came from samland in modern latvia

The data is for Udine (Brisighelli et al. 2012).

Floyo
29-10-13, 11:34
Interesting map, i have the haplogroup HV1a1 and i don't know it was either brought by Neolithic farmers or was already present during paleolithicum in Europe. Do you know anything about the subclade Maciamo?

Angela
29-10-13, 14:26
Dienekes once discussed an abstract which stated that autosomal analysis of an Iron Age Bulgarian (whom he referred to as a Thracian) showed that he was very "Oetzi" or Sardinian like...here is the Dienekes thread:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09/ashg-2012-abstracts-are-online.html

This is where the abstract can be found:
http://www.ashg.org/2012meeting/abstracts/fulltext/f120123058.htm

And this is the intriguing quote:
"Strikingly, an analysis including novel ancient DNA data from an early Iron Age individual from Bulgaria also shows the strongest affinity of this individual with modern-day Sardinians. Our results show that the Tyrolean Iceman was not a recent migrant from Sardinia, but rather that among contemporary Europeans, Sardinians represent the population most closely related to populations present in the Southern Alpine region around 5000 years ago. The genetic affinity of ancient DNA samples from distant parts of Europe with Sardinians also suggests that this genetic signature was much more widespread across Europe during the Bronze Age."

Does anyone know if the paper has appeared anywhere? That doesn't sound like someone from the Steppes to me, unless the people from the Steppes are pretty different from many conceptions of them. Or is it possible that individual pockets of older inhabitants survived?

Angela
29-10-13, 14:38
Ed. Sorry, double post.

Another thought with regard to these results for the Iron Age Bulgarian... if indeed we ever get to see it in a paper...cultural influences don't always have to indicate migration and admixture.

Angela
29-10-13, 14:45
This study about Cro-Magnon mtDNA (Paglicci-25 & Paglicci-12) from South Italy ~23-24000 years ago;

Caramelli et al 2003
http://www.pnas.org/content/100/11/6593.full#aff-1

Paglicci-25 has the following motifs: +7,025 AluI, 00073A, 11719G, and 12308A. Therefore, this sequence belongs to either haplogroups HV or pre-HV, two haplogroups rare in general but with a comparatively high frequencies among today's Near-Easterners (35). Paglicci-12 shows the motifs 00073G, 10873C, 10238T, and AACC between nucleotide positions 10397 and 10400, which allows the classification of this sequence into the macrohaplogroupN,containing haplogroups W, X, I, N1a, N1b, N1c, and N*. Following the definition given in ref. 36, the presence of a single mutation in 16,223 within HRVI suggests a classification of Paglicci-12 into the haplogroup N*, which is observed today in several samples from the Near East and, at lower frequencies, in the Caucasus (35).

If Paglicci-25 (Cro-Magnon) is mtDNA HV than forget about Magna Graecia and the Greeks; Cro-Magnons at least 22,000 years earlier;

It could be all three? In other words, depending on the specific clade, 22,000 years old, Neolithic or Magna Graecia.

adamo
29-10-13, 17:17
Weren't the thracians related to Dacians; a Balkanic people? I would have suspected the Thracian element of being I2a, Bulgars seem like the J2 or E3b group.

Sile
30-10-13, 06:59
Weren't the thracians related to Dacians; a Balkanic people? I would have suspected the Thracian element of being I2a, Bulgars seem like the J2 or E3b group.

yes for Ydna, but we are discussing mtDna for thracians and MtDna for HV

adamo
30-10-13, 07:27
HV according to this is only really present in Iraqi and southeastern Turkish females (10%). Then somehow Bulgaria and Calabria seem affected as well. It must have been two separate Neolithic migrations cause I don't see a Bulgaria/Calabria connection unless it's passing by Albania or Greece.

adamo
30-10-13, 07:30
Why so heavy in Calabria but still present in Tuscany? Considering both regions were colonized by different substratums of men; now why so frequent in Calabria but absent in Albania and Greece? IS there a historical movement to suggest this (I would say no beforehand) or is it ancient Neolithic component?

Maciamo
30-10-13, 09:02
Why so heavy in Calabria but still present in Tuscany? Considering both regions were colonized by different substratums of men; now why so frequent in Calabria but absent in Albania and Greece? IS there a historical movement to suggest this (I would say no beforehand) or is it ancient Neolithic component?

The sample sizes for Calabria and Albania are both small, so it would be wise to wait for more ample data before drawing any conclusion.

kamani
30-10-13, 12:08
I would have suspected the Thracian element of being I2a, Bulgars seem like the J2 or E3b group.
Bulgars are Pelasgian/Thracian (J2 + E3b) mixed with Slavic (I2a + R1a). The HV are the Pelasgian women, that's why you find them in the typical Pelasgian places (Calabria, Tuscany, 5% in Albania according to Bosch), and in large percentages in places where E3b came from such as South-East Anatolia.

Sile
30-10-13, 12:26
Bulgars are Pelasgian/Thracian (J2 + E3b) mixed with Slavic (I2a + R1a). The HV are the Pelasgian women, that's why you find them in the typical Pelasgian places (Calabria, Tuscany, 5% in Albania according to Bosch), and in large percentages in places where E3b came from such as South-East Anatolia.

thracians and bulgars are a pontid race, the thracian with cimmerians ( their closest relatives) came from the north of modern bulgaria. the bulgars came in bulgaria later in the medieval times.

East Mediterranean or Pontid race (Black Sea coast of Ukraine, Romania and Bulgaria)
black hair, pale skin and light coloured eyes

Sile
30-10-13, 12:29
Yes of course that goes with out saying;
Iron-age Bulgaria = Indo-European Thracians / Thraco-Cimmerian complex
+ all available Historical documentations of the Ancient scholars;

Modern-day Bulgarians are from the Thracians plus medieval Bulgars; Your find and this map clearly illustrate the Thracian heritage and continuity;



Thracians were Indo-Europeans and therefor from the Urheimat like all other Indo-Europeans;
And judging by the Thraco-Cimmerian complex the Thracians came via the Danube from North Black sea to the East Balkans and after the Indo-European Hittite empire collapsed - the Thracians (several tribes) crossed into Anatolia from Europe;

Strabo - Book VII/III
And the Phrygians themselves are Brigians, a Thracian tribe, as are also the Mygdonians, the Bebricians, the Medobithynians, the Bithynians, and the Thynians, and, I think, also the Mariandynians. These peoples, to be sure, have all utterly quitted Europe, but the Mysi have remained there.

Kristian Kristiansen - Europe before History (1999)
Classical sources mention between fifty and one hundred Thracian tribes.....Thracian culture was heavily influenced by the Pontic cultural koine around the Black Sea, by Macedonia, and by the neighbouring states on the coast of Asia Minor. This takes us back to the 9th and 8th centuries.....In a survey of Macedonian and Thracian bronzes Jan Bouzek (1973;1974) demonstrated the emergence of a circum-Pontic or Thraco-Cimmerian cultural koine from 800 BC. Here old Urnfield traditions in metalwork mixed with new Cimmerian influences originating in the Caucasian region,

Are the mysi ...the moesi or maudi or "medes" the settled with the dacians?

kamani
30-10-13, 12:51
thracians and bulgars are a pontid race, the thracian with cimmerians ( their closest relatives) came from the north of modern bulgaria. the bulgars came in bulgaria later in the medieval times.

East Mediterranean or Pontid race (Black Sea coast of Ukraine, Romania and Bulgaria)
black hair, pale skin and light coloured eyes

and Bulgar J2+E3b also came from Ukraine ?!

Goga
30-10-13, 15:30
and Bulgar J2+E3b also came from Ukraine ?!
I think that E3b is Southeast European: native Bulgarian, Balkanian, Greek or something like that. Has nothing to do with Ukraine nor Anatolia.

Some J2a and R1a types came from West Asia through the Steppes, while some Euopean types of R1a were brought by the Europeans (Slavic, Germanic etc.).

According to me part of (non-Neolithic) Bulgarian mtDNA haplogroup 'HV' arrived in Bulgaria with Y-DNA haplogroups J2a & West Asian R1a from the Steppes.

Goga
30-10-13, 15:33
I'm sure that West Asian mtDNA and West Asian Y-DNA in Bulgaria correlates very smoothly with each other. So there must be a link between mtDNA haplogorup HV and Y-DNA haplogroups J2a, West Asian clades of R1a and even some R1b...

ElHorsto
30-10-13, 21:45
Dienekes once discussed an abstract which stated that autosomal analysis of an Iron Age Bulgarian (whom he referred to as a Thracian) showed that he was very "Oetzi" or Sardinian like...here is the Dienekes thread:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09/ashg-2012-abstracts-are-online.html

This is where the abstract can be found:
http://www.ashg.org/2012meeting/abstracts/fulltext/f120123058.htm

And this is the intriguing quote:
"Strikingly, an analysis including novel ancient DNA data from an early Iron Age individual from Bulgaria also shows the strongest affinity of this individual with modern-day Sardinians. Our results show that the Tyrolean Iceman was not a recent migrant from Sardinia, but rather that among contemporary Europeans, Sardinians represent the population most closely related to populations present in the Southern Alpine region around 5000 years ago. The genetic affinity of ancient DNA samples from distant parts of Europe with Sardinians also suggests that this genetic signature was much more widespread across Europe during the Bronze Age."

Does anyone know if the paper has appeared anywhere? That doesn't sound like someone from the Steppes to me, unless the people from the Steppes are pretty different from many conceptions of them. Or is it possible that individual pockets of older inhabitants survived?

I think "Sardinian" has to be read in a wider sense, meaning generic south-european-like. I rather tend to agree here with davidski's comment and also with the reader's comments:
http://polishgenes.blogspot.de/2013/10/ancient-dna-from-prehistoric-bulgaria.html

Nobody1
30-10-13, 23:41
Are the mysi ...the moesi or maudi or "medes" the settled with the dacians?

Strabo - Book VII/III-V
The Greeks indeed considered the Getæ to be Thracians. They occupied either bank of the Danube, as also did the Mysians, likewise a Thracian people, now called the Moesi.....Next to the territory of the Scordisci, lying along the banks of the Danube, is the country of the Triballi and Mysi, whom we have before mentioned

Homer - Iliad XIII
Now when Jove had thus brought Hector and the Trojans to the ships, he left them to their never-ending toil, and turned his keen eyes away, looking elsewhither towards the horse-breeders of Thrace, the Mysians, fighters at close quarters, the noble Hippemolgi, who live on milk, and the Abians, justest of mankind.

The Mysi (Moesi) were Thracians that lived in Thrace east of the Triballi and Scordisci; and also on both sides of the Danube (Ister) which would mean next to (amongst) the Dacians as well; The Thracian Getae and Thracian Mysi (Moesi) seems were of the same (common) Thracian stock which would make the Getae close to the Moesi (Mysi) of later Roman times;

adamo
31-10-13, 00:31
Wait up a second......the Lydians of turkey were once known as Mysians/Moesians....what a minute; the Mysians are similar to Georgian Meshketi/Moscheti, the thracians COULdN'T have been related to Dacians or I2a people's; they were bloody pelasgians as well

adamo
31-10-13, 00:32
Were the Moesians and all thracians of Anatolian/Caucasus stock?

adamo
31-10-13, 00:32
And nobody you still haven't answered my research in the J2 folder on Sabine origins.

adamo
31-10-13, 00:34
During a transitory phase between Hittites/Leleges to Lydians, thetlydians were known as Moesians.

albanopolis
31-10-13, 00:37
Its absurd to consider the sources of antiquity as accurate. They ( historians) traveled in horseback and individually. How far an individual can travell? They had no responsability for any mistake since, their endevours were voluntary. Especially Greek historians that have been proven of being liers, its absurd conidering their writtings as true.

adamo
31-10-13, 00:38
Sardinians are not Southern Europeans; they're genetically unique with a high north-European maternal component and the world's highest frequencies of I-M26 (40%).

adamo
31-10-13, 00:39
Well Herodotus ended up being right on the Etruscans and Livy was a excellent historian; not everything historians said was nonsense.

ElHorsto
31-10-13, 00:59
Sardinians are not Southern Europeans; they're genetically unique with a high north-European maternal component and the world's highest frequencies of I-M26 (40%).

But what is true then, the near-eastern mtDNA and Y-DNA of the Thracian samples, or their autosomal closenes to Sardinians?
By the way I tend to disagree regarding the Sardinians, they are as mediterranean as one can be. The meaning of haplogroup lineages has its limits I think.

ElHorsto
31-10-13, 01:20
Again regarding autosomal comparison of Thracians with Sardinians I think that ancient Thracians might appear closer to Sardinians autosomally if they lack the north-european admixture (from slavs, germanics), because the Sardinians did not undergo bronze-age and later admixtures from north-europeans. That's why I'm sure Sardinians are the less admixted true south-europeans, more preserved from the neolithic. But I believe Thracians had more "Caucasus" admixture than Sardinians have. Also Ötzi had a little bit more of it than Sardinians so Thracians could have had even more.

Nobody1
31-10-13, 01:41
Wait up a second......the Lydians of turkey were once known as Mysians/Moesians....what a minute; the Mysians are similar to Georgian Meshketi/Moscheti, the thracians COULdN'T have been related to Dacians or I2a people's; they were bloody pelasgians as well

That part i posted about on page1/post#16

Strabo - Book VII/III
the Mysi, these also being Thracians and identical with the people who are now called Moesi; from these Mysi sprang also the Mysi who now live between the Lydians and the Phrygians and Trojans. And the Phrygians themselves are Brigians, a Thracian tribe, as are also the Mygdonians, the Bebricians, the Medobithynians, the Bithynians, and the Thynians, and, I think, also the Mariandynians. These peoples, to be sure, have all utterly quitted Europe, but the Mysi have remained there.

Several tribes of the Indo-European Thracians swarmed into Anatolia (from Europe) after the collapse of the Indo-European Hittite Empire; The Getae and Mysi(Moesi) def. remained in Europe (Thrace east of Scordisci and Triballi and beyond the Danube) as recorded by the ancient scholars;

adamo
31-10-13, 01:46
Who were they according to you?

Nobody1
31-10-13, 02:10
Again regarding autosomal comparison of Thracians with Sardinians I think that ancient Thracians might appear closer to Sardinians autosomally if they lack the north-european admixture (from slavs, germanics), because the Sardinians did not undergo bronze-age and later admixtures from north-europeans. That's why I'm sure Sardinians are the less admixted true south-europeans, more preserved from the neolithic. But I believe Thracians had more "Caucasus" admixture than Sardinians have. Also Ötzi had a little bit more of it than Sardinians so Thracians could have had even more.

Maybe that individual was of a subjugated remnant population of the pre-Indo-European Gumelnita-Karanovo VI-Varna complex; Which would correspond with its Neolithic Ötzi links and the broader Neolithic expansions into Europe (especially Balkans and Alpine area)

Gök4 was as far north as south Sweden but still with very strong Mediterranid links and her strong related ancestry to modern-day Sardinians - seems that these Neolithic peoples were from a common stock;

With the modern-day Sardinians being still closest to them due to their isolation and modern-day Finns and Estonian closer to hunter-gatherers; And both Sardinians and Finns also cluster in a world of their own (isolated) in comparison to other modern-day European pops - These two aspects show that they are still left behind and of a very Old European stock;

Angela
31-10-13, 02:51
Well Herodotus ended up being right on the Etruscans and Livy was a excellent historian; not everything historians said was nonsense.

As I've said before, all we have is mtDNA, and even in that case, it's only HVRI...no yDNA and no autosomal DNA. Plus, we don't know if those samples from elite burials were representative of the majority of the population.

This is the latest paper on the mtDNA.

Origins and Evolution of the Etruscans' MtDNA, Ghirotto et al...
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055519

One interesting finding is that in the areas sampled (all connected to the Etruscans) only in Volterra and Casentino did the authors find a link between the mtDNA of the ancient Etruscans and the modern Tuscans.

adamo
31-10-13, 03:26
Because the Tuscan basin was heavily re-populated by several waves of incoming Gauls; and so entire regions of Tuscany that once had much higher Etruscan genetic heritage were replaced by west European lineages. But one must remember that the Etruscans settled territory that was anciently villanovan; who themselves were also celts and possibly the ancestors of the latins.

adamo
31-10-13, 03:28
Today only 10-20% of Tuscan males actually descend from Etruscans; I would average it at 15%. Tuscany was heavily re-settled by incoming celts.

Sile
31-10-13, 07:20
That part i posted about on page1/post#16

Strabo - Book VII/III
the Mysi, these also being Thracians and identical with the people who are now called Moesi; from these Mysi sprang also the Mysi who now live between the Lydians and the Phrygians and Trojans. And the Phrygians themselves are Brigians, a Thracian tribe, as are also the Mygdonians, the Bebricians, the Medobithynians, the Bithynians, and the Thynians, and, I think, also the Mariandynians. These peoples, to be sure, have all utterly quitted Europe, but the Mysi have remained there.

Several tribes of the Indo-European Thracians swarmed into Anatolia (from Europe) after the collapse of the Indo-European Hittite Empire; The Getae and Mysi(Moesi) def. remained in Europe (Thrace east of Scordisci and Triballi and beyond the Danube) as recorded by the ancient scholars;

thanks

so herodous was correct when he stated that the second most populous people in the world ( his known world) after the indians was the Thracians.

Brigians are in pannonia and tyrol areas in ancient times, bessi in central veneto after conquest of thrace by Rome, and another thracian people where also moved , I cannot remember

ElHorsto
31-10-13, 11:17
Maybe that individual was of a subjugated remnant population of the pre-Indo-European Gumelnita-Karanovo VI-Varna complex; Which would correspond with its Neolithic Ötzi links and the broader Neolithic expansions into Europe (especially Balkans and Alpine area)

Gök4 was as far north as south Sweden but still with very strong Mediterranid links and her strong related ancestry to modern-day Sardinians - seems that these Neolithic peoples were from a common stock;

With the modern-day Sardinians being still closest to them due to their isolation and modern-day Finns and Estonian closer to hunter-gatherers; And both Sardinians and Finns also cluster in a world of their own (isolated) in comparison to other modern-day European pops - These two aspects show that they are still left behind and of a very Old European stock;

Yes, that's basically what I'm thinking too. Except that the neolithic individuals differ slightly by their West Asian admixture (Caucasus admix belongs to it), which Gök4 was completely lacking but Ötzi showed up to 22% Caucasus in K12b (I don't think it is truely that much, but the difference consistently shows up in most other calculators). Sardinians also have 20% in K12b. Gök4 had 0% and also Davidski once made a comparison with contemporary populations indicating that the most Gök4 descendants are Iberians who indeed have less West Asian.
Therefore my reasoning is: assuming Thracians had for instance 40% Caucasus and 60% Atlantic_med, then they still would be closer to any 20%/70% population like Sardinians than to contemporary Bulgarians (and others) who later received 34% North-euro from Slavs, Germanics and others. Sardinians and Gök4 have 0% North-Euro. This does not exclude the possibility of paleolithic admixture in them, if it is of late paleolithic near-eastern/north-african origin (mtDNA H1/H3?, Combe-Capelle meds?), but this is very speculative.
The Thracian results are indeed surprising (provided the methods are good), but if he really resembles Sardinians (although not completely), then he really should have much less North-European and Steppic ancestry than expected. So it could be as you said, that this individual is from a subjugated remnant population.

ElHorsto
31-10-13, 12:19
Sardinians and Gök4 have 0% North-Euro.

Correction: Gök4 has 5.5%, but it is still low enough.

Angela
31-10-13, 18:52
I think "Sardinian" has to be read in a wider sense, meaning generic south-european-like. I rather tend to agree here with davidski's comment and also with the reader's comments:
http://polishgenes.blogspot.de/2013/10/ancient-dna-from-prehistoric-bulgaria.html


Thank you for that link.

I took a look at the European specific PCA's for all five ancient European samples. (four from ancient Bulgaria, and one from ancient Denmark)
They can be found on page six of the Supplementary Data section here:
http://download.cell.com/AJHG/mmcs/journals/0002-9297/PIIS000292971300459X.mmc1.pdf

I think they have to be used with caution. In the case of the Danish sample, it rather contradicts the post capture global PCA plot, as in the global plot, the Danish sample is near Finland...here, the Danish sample plots right at the beginning of the "Southern European" section.

In terms of the ancient Bulgarian samples, it's difficult to draw conclusions; I don't see a definitive narrative, either in terms of age or culture or class.

1) Sample P192-1, a Thracian culture sample found in a pit sanctuary, 800-500 B.C. and the mtDNA is U3b

2) Sample T2G2, a Thracian culture sample dated to virtually the same time frame (850-700 B.C.) and found in a tumulous burial. The mtDNA is HV.

3) Sample K8, a slightly younger (450-400 B.C.) Iron Age sample, also found in a tumulous burial. No mtDNA determination could be made.

4) Sample V2, the sample which appears in the global plot, is one thousand years older and dates to the Late Bronze Age (1500-1100 B.C.). It is an inhumation, flat burial. No mtDNA determination could be made.

Looking at the European specific PCA's, the P-192-1 Thracian Iron Age sample lands in the Tuscan plot.

The plot for the T2G2 Thracian Iron Age sample lacks a lot of definition, probably partly because they were unable to extract as many snps as they did from the other remains, but he seems to land right where the Tuscan, GB and CEU samples meet.

V2, which is the much older Bronze Age sample shown in the global PCA plot, is a little further away, but is right next to where the Southern European clusters begin. This would correlate pretty well with the probably more accurate V2 global plot, where, if you increase the size of the image, you can see that he plots right over GB, Iberian and Tuscan samples.

The K8 sample is the only one that doesn't fit the overall Southern European "look" of the other samples. It seems more "Northeastern" and plots in the middle of the GB and CEU samples.

I was expecting the Bronze Age sample to perhaps be more "North-Eastern" in orientation, but that doesn't seem to be the case. If I were going to guess, perhaps the K8 sample is from an intrusive, later Iron Age Culture...there's a difference of about 300 years if we stretch the dates a little.

Or perhaps it's down to geographical sub-structuring and these attempts to pin a specific yDNA and mtDNA to certain specific cultures is not going to be informative at this relatively late date in European history. ( P192-1 and T2g2 are in the south, V2 is in the northwest, and K8 seems to be from the central eastern portion of Bulgaria.)

Also, as I mentioned above, I don't know how seriously to take these European specific PCA's, as the Danish sample is as close to the Tuscan cluster as some of the ancient Bulgarians.

The global PCA plot in the main body of the text (Table 3) is probably more accurate, and that plots the V2 Bronze Age sample right over on top of what looks like the Iberian samples, some Tuscan samples, and some GB samples. I wish they had provided global plots for all of the ancient Bulgarian samples.

See:
http://images.cell.com/images/EdImages/AJHG/ajhg1537.pdf

ElHorsto
31-10-13, 19:13
Thank you for that link.

I took a look at the European specific PCA's for all five ancient European samples. (four from ancient Bulgaria, and one from ancient Denmark)
They can be found on page six of the Supplementary Data section here:
http://download.cell.com/AJHG/mmcs/journals/0002-9297/PIIS000292971300459X.mmc1.pdf

I think they have to be used with caution. In the case of the Danish sample, it rather contradicts the post capture global PCA plot, as in the global plot, the Danish sample is near Finland...here, the Danish sample plots right at the beginning of the "Southern European" section.

In terms of the ancient Bulgarian samples, it's difficult to draw conclusions; I don't see a definitive narrative, either in terms of age or culture or class.

1) Sample P192-1, a Thracian culture sample found in a pit sanctuary, 800-500 B.C. and the mtDNA is U3b

2) Sample T2G2, a Thracian culture sample dated to virtually the same time frame (850-700 B.C.) and found in a tumulous burial. The mtDNA is HV.

3) Sample K8, a slightly younger (450-400 B.C.) Iron Age sample, also found in a tumulous burial. No mtDNA determination could be made.

4) Sample V2, the sample which appears in the global plot, is one thousand years older and dates to the Late Bronze Age (1500-1100 B.C.). It is an inhumation, flat burial. No mtDNA determination could be made.

Looking at the European specific PCA's, the P-192-1 Thracian Iron Age sample lands in the Tuscan plot.

The plot for the T2G2 Thracian Iron Age sample lacks a lot of definition, probably partly because they were unable to extract as many snps as they did from the other remains, but he seems to land right where the Tuscan, GB and CEU samples meet.

V2, which is the much older Bronze Age sample shown in the global PCA plot, is a little further away, but is right next to where the Southern European clusters begin. This would correlate pretty well with the probably more accurate V2 global plot, where, if you increase the size of the image, you can see that he plots right over GB, Iberian and Tuscan samples.

The K8 sample is the only one that doesn't fit the overall Southern European "look" of the other samples. It seems more "Northeastern" and plots in the middle of the GB and CEU samples.

I was expecting the Bronze Age sample to perhaps be more "North-Eastern" in orientation, but that doesn't seem to be the case. If I were going to guess, perhaps the K8 sample is from an intrusive, later Iron Age Culture...there's a difference of about 300 years if we stretch the dates a little.

Or perhaps it's down to geographical sub-structuring and these attempts to pin a specific yDNA and mtDNA to certain specific cultures is not going to be informative at this relatively late date in European history. ( P192-1 and T2g2 are in the south, V2 is in the northwest, and K8 seems to be from the central eastern portion of Bulgaria.)

Also, as I mentioned above, I don't know how seriously to take these European specific PCA's, as the Danish sample is as close to the Tuscan cluster as some of the ancient Bulgarians.

The global PCA plot in the main body of the text (Table 3) is probably more accurate, and that plots the V2 Bronze Age sample right over on top of what looks like the Iberian samples, some Tuscan samples, and some GB samples. I wish they had provided global plots for all of the ancient Bulgarian samples.

See:
http://images.cell.com/images/EdImages/AJHG/ajhg1537.pdf

Thanks for the explanation of that paper, it is more easy now to understand. I agree it should be taken with A LOT of caution. The Tuscan matches would make a lot of sense imho, but not so much the Iberian and especially not the GB.

MOESAN
01-11-13, 19:04
Ed. Sorry, double post.

Another thought with regard to these results for the Iron Age Bulgarian... if indeed we ever get to see it in a paper...cultural influences don't always have to indicate migration and admixture.

a lot of different genetic markers point to a roughly 'mediterranean' origin for Bulgarians, more on the sardinian side than on the caucasian one, I think - very meager influence of steppic peoples, either I-Eans or Turcs... the classical anthropological surveys (old science) showed some pockets with surely more slav blood around Sofia: cultural and political center of power & diffusion?; the same kinds of pockets are found in S-Romania too, isolated in different general context -

Sile
01-11-13, 19:45
a lot of different genetic markers point to a roughly 'mediterranean' origin for Bulgarians, more on the sardinian side than on the caucasian one, I think - very meager influence of steppic peoples, either I-Eans or Turcs... the classical anthropological surveys (old science) showed some pockets with surely more slav blood around Sofia: cultural and political center of power & diffusion?; the same kinds of pockets are found in S-Romania too, isolated in different general context -

these papers which mention "bulgarians" with sardinians, germans, italians etc clearly indicate the people of pre-slav migration......ie thracians/dacians/getae etc.

for me, after most AuDna tests, the initial results indicating either french/north-italian/alpine areas, the next group is mostly bulgarian/romanian ( both old thracian areas).

Clearly the thracians under roman occupation where used in the western part of Europe by the Romans

Sile
01-11-13, 19:49
@angela

the paper you noted basically comes on the back of this previous paper
http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2008/07/ancient-thracian-mtdna.html

and

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2007/12/eshg-2007-abstracts.html

Angela
01-11-13, 22:23
@angela

the paper you noted basically comes on the back of this previous paper
http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2008/07/ancient-thracian-mtdna.html

and

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2007/12/eshg-2007-abstracts.html

Thanks for the links, Sile.

As for your other post, I also get Romanian and Bulgarian. They are third, however, after Italians (North Italians and Tuscans) and Spaniards, but I think that's to be expected for a Northwest Italian versus a Northeast Italian.

I'm not sure that this affinity is because of Balkan peoples being brought into the Roman empire...I think the gene flow from the Balkans into Italy has been pretty constant until about 400 B.C. according to Ralph and Coop, and then some movement in the medieval era that may be due to the Arbereshe.

LHW
26-01-14, 04:33
Thank you for this absolutely excellent and very helpful map of the HV haplogroup. I was wondering if you (or any other subscribers) could cast some light on my enquiry please. I can't understand why if HV is the ancestor of the prolific European group H and also V, then there are so few HV's in Europe please? What happened to them? Many thanks.

martiko
26-01-14, 11:38
being can there are two or three origins in this expansion, but I suspect Etruscan (Calabre) then Alains and Avars, but in part its extension in Bulgaria and Ukraine I think of the Turkish with Ottoman empire or it could it be more ancient and go back up to the Neolithic or even before?

Mars
25-02-14, 19:40
I'm HV. My maternal line is from the Tosco-Emilian Appenines, on the emilian side (Modena). That area was historically inhabited by ligurians, etruscans, gauls, romans. What population could have most likely contributed to my family line? Or can it be even older - paleolithic maybe?

Alan
25-02-14, 20:02
some sub branches of HV are definitely Indo European. HV1 and HV2 were found in Scythian burials. Especially HV2 seems to have an exclusive Indo-European (Satem?) origin. It is found as far East as Xingjang, the Altais, in Eastern Europe among Slovaks, in Iran among Kurds, Baloch and Gilakis, in individuals of North India-Uttar Pradesh and in Scandinavia among Swedish individuals.

Angela
25-02-14, 22:01
I'm HV. My maternal line is from the Tosco-Emilian Appenines, on the emilian side (Modena). That area was historically inhabited by ligurians, etruscans, gauls, romans. What population could have most likely contributed to my family line? Or can it be even older - paleolithic maybe?

MtDNA is even more difficult to link to specific ancient populations than is yDNA. One coding region difference mutation can separate two clusters of a specific mtDNA clade of a haplogroup by thousands of years and who knows what migration groups.

For example, my closest mtDNA match is an American of British Isles ancestry. We are both within a specific branch of U2e. Yet, after having our complete FGS mtDNA results analyzed, we discovered that our most recent common maternal line ancestress likely lived around 1500 to 1000 years ago. It could even stretch to 2000 years ago, or longer.

Specifically as to HV and the Etruscans, yes, HV has been found in ancient Etruscan samples, but it also has a strong presence in parts of Italy, like Sicily and Calabria, which were never settled by the Etruscans. It could very likely just be Neolithic in Italy in most cases, but it could have been carried by other peoples as well.

If we ever got some complete mtDNA analysis of Etruscan remains, (none of the studies that have been done so far are of any worth whatsoever, in my opinion, as they are usually only HVRI sequences, and they are in addition badly done and analyzed ) or of other ancient remains in Italy, and if someone had a complete FGS done, then some logical conclusions might be drawn, but not until then.

Mars
26-02-14, 00:06
^I see. I read somewhere that a cro-magnon skeleton from 25,000 years ago was recently found in Southern Italy. Researchers determined he probably carried haplogroup HV. Maybe my ancestors are even correlated to this "guy"... Hard to say unfortunately.