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Tabaccus Maximus
29-10-13, 11:34
Did Haplogroup R* (NE or Central Asian hunter-gatherers) inject ceramic technology in Near Eastern farming cultures of the Early Neolithic???

Rhetorical question..thoughts..

An interesting a note to start; ceramic technology is first associated with hunter-gatherer peoples in the east, such as the Jomonese (O), Jiangxia (probably O).

NO & P are two major brother clades of MNOPS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K-M526

M & S remained fairly isolated in the Pacific islands, however from N & O we get the vast major of Asian male lineages. From P* we get haplogroups Q & R which are in some cases the exclusive paternal haplogroups of Native Americans and West Asians (Euros) respectively.

Now it would be an understatement to say they have been successful. We'll say they were 'highly procreative'.

I've theorized in another thread on this forum, several days before the Paleoamerican conference leaks on Mal'ta to be exact, that mound building in the Americas, Siberia and West Asia has an origin with P-M45, the father clade of R* and Q*. It is almost irresistable given the similarities.

In another post I postulated a possible link with tattooing and descendant cultures of MNOPS. That is a rabbit hole absolutely worth jumping in to.


So now, I will add one more amatuer observation to the massive heap of amatuer observations:

Could it be that ceramic pottery (real use ceramics) made its way into the pre-pottery Neolithic of the Near East VIA a westward moving NE Central Asian culture...
Oh, let's say R1* and R2??? The origin of pottery, and the timing of its spread into the Near East and SWA should be enough to raise ebrows.

http://scahome.org/publications/proceedings/Proceedings.12Kajiwara.pdf

Given the near monopoly of Haplogroup Q in South America and the earliest dating of pottery among the O haplogroups, wouldn't it seem possible that some aeral contact in the sphere of these brother clades had an already established ceramic culture.

Other than R* who else could have brought ceramic technology West. One more thing to consider, for those of you who believe in peaceful technology transfers, the PPN transition of Merhgahr doesn't at all look like a love fest. In fact the varied, stratified burial patterns are clearly intrusive. I think you see the same pattern in the Early NE Neolithic.

I think understanding the ceramic pottery transition in the early Neolithic may be a critical link to understanding the autosomal composition of modern Europeans, Near Easterers and SW Asians.
Fire away!!

Alexandros
01-11-13, 21:00
This is an interesting hypothesis. What about the archaeogenetics of the Near East? Do we have any data from ancient DNA analyses from samples during that transition era in the Near East? I think this is the only way to prove this theory. The problem is that DNA degrades much faster in the warmer temperatures of the NE (compared to northern Europe), so it is like looking for a needle in a haystack.. If you come across any data though I would be very interested to see them.

Joe17
02-11-13, 12:08
From P* we get haplogroups Q & R which are in some cases the exclusive paternal haplogroups of Native Americans and West Asians (Euros) respectively.


This is not totally true. Many Mongoloid's in Asia have their own separate Y DNA Q subclades. Y DNA R would have been totally absent from the vas majority of Europe 6,000 years ago. R1b1a2a1a in west Europe probably spread mainly in the last 4,000 years based in age estimates and ancient DNA. Y DNA R1a1a1b1 Z283 in central, northern, and eastern Europe probably spread with Corded ware culture mainly about 4,500-5,000ybp. R1a1 M17 probably originated in Ukraine or Russia 8,000ybp or so but besides that Y DNA R was almost non existent in Europe. R1b probably originated in central or west Asia and has a old history in the middle east. Y DNA R originally was not a major Y DNA haplogroup of really anyone in the world. It has been overrated because there are way more genetic studies on Europe and things that have to do with Europe like Indo Europeans.

Joe17
02-11-13, 12:12
Could it be that ceramic pottery (real use ceramics) made its way into the pre-pottery Neolithic of the Near East VIA a westward moving NE Central Asian culture...
Oh, let's say R1* and R2??? The origin of pottery, and the timing of its spread into the Near East and SWA should be enough to raise ebrows.
I doubt it the age estimated of Y DNa R1b and its subclades in the Near east are to old and many are pre Neolithic. R1a1 M17 probably originated in Europe anyways and same with R1a itself and it is also to estimated to be to old and pre Neolithic.

Tabaccus Maximus
04-11-13, 09:37
What about the archaeogenetics of the Near East? Do we have any data from ancient DNA analyses from samples during that transition era in the Near East?

Not enough, not yet. Pots vs. people. I usually come down on the people side so I would bet there is an intrusive element that fused with early Neolithic peoples. So the question is, not if, but who were the Eastern intruders? R* seems a good candidate.

Tabaccus Maximus
04-11-13, 09:55
Many Mongoloid's in Asia have their own separate Y DNA Q subclades.

Totally agree.


Y DNA R would have been totally absent from the vas majority of Europe 6,000 years ago.

Agree again. The fusion area in the PPN would most likely have been in SW Asia and West Asia.

As for the rest, the earliest Neolithic farmers c 10,000 ago were most likely not R* people, although I suspect that our modern European maternal lineage is in fact largely descended from them. As a matter of fact, I think the Neolithic farmers probably looked maternally somewhat like modern European mtdna haplogroups.

At some point in the early SWA Neolithic (Northern Pakistan, Iran, Mespotamia, Turkey, Syria) several indicators convince me of an intrusive cultural influence.
1. Eastern ceramic technology (daily use ceramics) 2. stratified, flexed burials 3. increasing emphasis on male gods 4. single graves 5. mound building 6. personal property

I suspect this is potentially a new "male" population. It must be a male population originating in the East. Probably isn't IJKTG or E. Pretty much leaves R* that is detectable. These binary components R* (Eastern ceramic hunters) + HVO; UK (PPN farmers) potentially explains the modern autosomal mix of Europeans. Most of this happened outside Europe.

It would make sense that the eastern parts of the Neolithic Near East and SWA were impacted by R* immigrants the most. Perhaps the population in Iran and Northern Pakistan were impacted directly, whereas a watered-down cultural diffusion slowly crept into the surround farming cultures. For example, ceramics spread quickly, whereas fertility religion seems to linger the longest. Maybe this is one of the reasons why R* is ubiquitously undetected in Neolithic Europe, whereas the modern maternal haplogroups seem to progressively increase and then explode in the Bronze Age.

bicicleur
21-11-13, 13:49
Did Haplogroup R* (NE or Central Asian hunter-gatherers) inject ceramic technology in Near Eastern farming cultures of the Early Neolithic???

Rhetorical question..thoughts..

An interesting a note to start; ceramic technology is first associated with hunter-gatherer peoples in the east, such as the Jomonese (O), Jiangxia (probably O).

NO & P are two major brother clades of MNOPS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K-M526

M & S remained fairly isolated in the Pacific islands, however from N & O we get the vast major of Asian male lineages. From P* we get haplogroups Q & R which are in some cases the exclusive paternal haplogroups of Native Americans and West Asians (Euros) respectively.

Now it would be an understatement to say they have been successful. We'll say they were 'highly procreative'.

I've theorized in another thread on this forum, several days before the Paleoamerican conference leaks on Mal'ta to be exact, that mound building in the Americas, Siberia and West Asia has an origin with P-M45, the father clade of R* and Q*. It is almost irresistable given the similarities.

In another post I postulated a possible link with tattooing and descendant cultures of MNOPS. That is a rabbit hole absolutely worth jumping in to.


So now, I will add one more amatuer observation to the massive heap of amatuer observations:

Could it be that ceramic pottery (real use ceramics) made its way into the pre-pottery Neolithic of the Near East VIA a westward moving NE Central Asian culture...
Oh, let's say R1* and R2??? The origin of pottery, and the timing of its spread into the Near East and SWA should be enough to raise ebrows.

http://scahome.org/publications/proceedings/Proceedings.12Kajiwara.pdf

Given the near monopoly of Haplogroup Q in South America and the earliest dating of pottery among the O haplogroups, wouldn't it seem possible that some aeral contact in the sphere of these brother clades had an already established ceramic culture.

Other than R* who else could have brought ceramic technology West. One more thing to consider, for those of you who believe in peaceful technology transfers, the PPN transition of Merhgahr doesn't at all look like a love fest. In fact the varied, stratified burial patterns are clearly intrusive. I think you see the same pattern in the Early NE Neolithic.

I think understanding the ceramic pottery transition in the early Neolithic may be a critical link to understanding the autosomal composition of modern Europeans, Near Easterers and SW Asians.
Fire away!!

Jomon culture had the first pottery , they are supposed to be haplo D , but after the LGM haplo N travelled all the way from southern China to Finland

My guess :

Haplo N picked up pottery and brought it all the way to to North-East Europe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit%E2%80%93Comb_Ware_culture

Mal'ta-Afantova culture was R.
Mal'ta went to America.
Afantova went west.
They picked up pottery from haplo N south of Ural mountains and brought it to the Pontic steppe, where it existed before the pottery brought by Neolithic farmers from Transylvania.