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Dianatomia
03-11-13, 19:10
Who are the Macedonian Slavs and which modern ethnic group are they most related to?

oreo_cookie
03-11-13, 23:57
Bulgarians and Greeks.

albanopolis
04-11-13, 04:37
There is not Macedonian ethnicity. Macedonia is a geographic term. The slavs in Macedonia are Bulgarians. Greeks have nothing in common with slavs. Geneticaly macedonian slavs are largely slavic I2a+Bulgarian j2a

Sile
04-11-13, 10:17
There is not Macedonian ethnicity. Macedonia is a geographic term. The slavs in Macedonia are Bulgarians. Greeks have nothing in common with slavs. Geneticaly macedonian slavs are largely slavic I2a+Bulgarian j2a

wasn't there an ancient macedonian empire that destroyed the persians?

adamo
04-11-13, 12:09
Greeks have NOTHING in common with Slavs.......? Are you forgetting the 10-20% I2a and R1a ( each).

Dianatomia
04-11-13, 14:09
Greeks have NOTHING in common with Slavs.......? Are you forgetting the 10-20% I2a and R1a ( each).

I2a in Greece is around 9%. R1a is at around 10% in Crete and the islands. It is highly likely that R1a was present in Greece since ancient times.

BTW is the 23% of I2a in the FYR of Macedonia the average of both Macedonian Slavs and Albanians? If so, the precentage of I2a in Macedonian Slavs would be over 30%. Very close to the numbers of Serbia and higher than the numbers of Bulgaria. Although in Bulgaria there are large Roma and Turkish minorities which would mean that the number of I2a in Bulgarians is also around 30%.

Ike
04-11-13, 15:29
Is this a licitation? Byzantin writers documented well which tribes settled their empire:

http://archive.worldhistoria.com/uploads/20061009_081553_03_-_Slavs_on_t.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/South_Slavic_tribes.png


For Dragovitai (Dregovich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dregovichs)), and Milingoi (Milinzi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melingoi)) we have lot of data. Dregoviti, which (amongst other Slavic tribes) settled on the territory of ancient Macedonia even managed to keep (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drougoubitai) their ethnic distinction up to 13th century. You can probably find data for all other tribes.

albanopolis
04-11-13, 18:12
The thread is about macedonian slavs. Slavs have nothing in common with ancient macedonians. History says that at 4th centuary a.d macedonian ethnicity ceased existing. They abandoned their language and become greeks. There was not macedonia until Tito invented it in 1945. So they are Bulgarians.

Dianatomia
04-11-13, 18:31
The thread is about macedonian slavs. Slavs have nothing in common with ancient macedonians. History says that at 4th centuary a.d macedonian ethnicity ceased existing. They abandoned their language and become greeks. There was not macedonia until Tito invented it in 1945. So they are Bulgarians.

In the 4th century B.C. not only did the ancient Macedonians adopt Koine Greek, but all other Greek tribes as well. That says nothing about the original tongue of the Macedonians which might very well be a form of Greek. At least, there is no linguistic literary evidence which points to the opposite. But as you made your point, even it was something different than Greek, it is rather irrelevant.

There was a Macedonia prior to 1945, but only in a geographical context. I.e. the Ottoman region of Macedonia (which is not the same as the original kingdom of Ancient Macedonia). There were even some elites who identified themselves as Macedonians in the late 19th century, but only in the Bulgarian Macedonian context and definitely not in an Ancient context. That was adopted much later.

Dianatomia
04-11-13, 18:49
For Dragovitai (Dregovich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dregovichs)), and Milingoi (Milinzi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melingoi)) we have lot of data. Dregoviti, which (amongst other Slavic tribes) settled on the territory of ancient Macedonia even managed to keep (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drougoubitai) their ethnic distinction up to 13th century. You can probably find data for all other tribes.

Maps are always misleading.
The extent of the spread of the Slavic tribes says little about the genetic impact on the modern counterparts of that region.
In the places they settled they could have been vastly outnumbered, retreated, or deported in some period of time. By the same analogy you could create a map of the spread of Turkish settlers in the Balkans and claim that the people in the Balkans are Turks, while in reality there were some scattered Turkish settlers in the Balkans which at some time may have been absorbed and deported.

Ike
04-11-13, 18:54
The thread is about macedonian slavs.
Exactly.....


Slavs have nothing in common with ancient macedonians.
so why would you mention different Macedonians now?


History says that at 4th centuary a.d macedonian ethnicity ceased existing. They abandoned their language and become greeks.
The was no Greece in 4th century. Abandoning one's language doesn't change ethnicity. Either they're extinct or assimilated into another people.


There was not macedonia until Tito invented it in 1945.
If we're talking about FYR, yes, there was (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Central_balkans_1373_1395.png). Rulers were from the House of Mrnjavcevic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrnjavčević_family), noblemen from the court of Helen of Anjou (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_of_Anjou).


So they are Bulgarians.
They never considered themselves as Bulgarians, neither Bulgarians thought they were. There are even parts of Bulgaria, that don't consider themselves as bulgarians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarisation

Ike
04-11-13, 19:10
Maps are always misleading.
The extent of the spread of the Slavic tribes says little about the genetic impact on the modern counterparts of that region.
In the places they settled they could have been vastly outnumbered, retreated, or deported in some period of time. By the same analogy you could create a map of the spread of Turkish settlers in the Balkans and claim that the people in the Balkans are Turks, while in reality there were some scattered Turkish settlers in the Balkans which at some time may have been absorbed and deported.

Those are percentages and rate of survival you're talking about. That's level 2. We're still on level 1. trying to identify the Slavic tribes that arrived in Macedonia.

Sile
04-11-13, 19:29
ancient macedonians are macedonians, they disappeared from the planet once the Romans took control. Their are some still there but most where dispersed. The Romans targeted them from 202BC to 168BC ( when they where destroyed)
They suffered the same fate as the Carthaginians because they where always allied to Hannibal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pydna

Dianatomia
04-11-13, 20:09
ancient macedonians are macedonians, they disappeared from the planet once the Romans took control. Their are some still there but most where dispersed. The Romans targeted them from 202BC to 168BC ( when they where destroyed)
They suffered the same fate as the Carthaginians because they where always allied to Hannibal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pydna

When talking about Macedonian Slavs, it would be historically more accurate to debate what happened to the Paionians, Illyrians and Thracians in the region of FYR of Macedonia.

As you point out, after the Hellenistic period little had remained from the Ancient Macedonians as a unique distinct (sub-)group. And this does not only hold true for the Macedonians. Let's not forget that the architects of Hellenization and the standardization of Greek language and culture were the Macedonians themselves.

Dianatomia
04-11-13, 20:39
They never considered themselves as Bulgarians, neither Bulgarians thought they were. There are even parts of Bulgaria, that don't consider themselves as bulgarians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarisation

The ethnic identity of Slavs in Macedonia in the early 19th century was very vague. Certainly the church and language played an important role in peoples identity. It is only through many coincidental political events that Macedonian Slavs were to see themselves as a distinct people in the 20th century. The Ottomans and Greeks did not distinguish them from Bulgarians. In that respect they could easily have evolved as a regional distinct subgroup of Bulgaria. The arguments that they could be considered Bulgarians would at least as convincing than they are not.

That said, if now they want to self-determine themselves as distinct from Bulgarians, I have no objections to it.

albanopolis
04-11-13, 21:14
Exactly.....


so why would you mention different Macedonians now?


The was no Greece in 4th century. Abandoning one's language doesn't change ethnicity. Either they're extinct or assimilated into another people.


If we're talking about FYR, yes, there was (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Central_balkans_1373_1395.png). Rulers were from the House of Mrnjavcevic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrnjavčević_family), noblemen from the court of Helen of Anjou (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_of_Anjou).


They never considered themselves as Bulgarians, neither Bulgarians thought they were. There are even parts of Bulgaria, that don't consider themselves as bulgarians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarisation

I should have siad Ancient Macdonians became Hellens. You are right, there is difference between modern greek and hellen. Modern Greeks comprise of Hellens, Slavs,Albanians, Turks, Vlahs, Gypsies, Thracians and who knows what.
They adopted hellenistic education and culture and over time became culturally the same with Hellens. Records show that after 4 centuary a,d they no longer spoke Macedonian language. Greek historian noted that Macedonian and hellenistic languages were not of the same family. Todays Macedonian language is a dialect of bullgarian and there is the opposition party that promote bulgarian ethnicity in Macedonia. Macedonians score 85% of the time genetic similiarity with Bulgarian. So they really are Bulgarians who live in the geographic territory of Macedonia. There is also a greek Macedonia.

Ike
04-11-13, 23:11
After the Balkan war Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia divided territory of Macedonia among themselves. Boundaries were drawn logically. Every member got it's own, pretty much right. Todays Macedonia or FYR Macedonia is just Serbian part of that territory. The Slavic tribes inhabiting that territory are not related to Bulgarians in any way. They are also not related to ancient Macedonians, and there is no distinctive Macedonian ethnicity.


Genetic similarity with Bulgarians is made through the part of the population that was neither Bulgarian nor Slavic. Drawing conclusions from there is not wise.




http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y226/mindaugas/Maps/PartitionofMacedonia1913.jpg

Dianatomia
04-11-13, 23:34
So, it seems to me that Albanians (correct me if I am wrong), Greeks and Bulgarians see Macedonian Slavs as former Bulgarians, but Serbs do not. While none of them consider them to be related to Ancient Macedonians.

Coincidentally, it was the Serbs in the previous century who claimed Macedonian Slavs where not Bulgarians.

Ike
05-11-13, 01:21
There may have been some other R1a/I2a (or Slavic) tribes inhabiting Macedonia before these Slavic Macedonians arrived in 6th century...

Sile
05-11-13, 06:49
I should have siad Ancient Macdonians became Hellens. You are right, there is difference between modern greek and hellen. Modern Greeks comprise of Hellens, Slavs,Albanians, Turks, Vlahs, Gypsies, Thracians and who knows what.
They adopted hellenistic education and culture and over time became culturally the same with Hellens. Records show that after 4 centuary a,d they no longer spoke Macedonian language. Greek historian noted that Macedonian and hellenistic languages were not of the same family. Todays Macedonian language is a dialect of bullgarian and there is the opposition party that promote bulgarian ethnicity in Macedonia. Macedonians score 85% of the time genetic similiarity with Bulgarian. So they really are Bulgarians who live in the geographic territory of Macedonia. There is also a greek Macedonia.

do they what to remain independent or become part of bulgaria?

Ike
05-11-13, 15:51
So, it seems to me that Albanians (correct me if I am wrong), Greeks and Bulgarians see Macedonian Slavs as former Bulgarians, but Serbs do not. While none of them consider them to be related to Ancient Macedonians.

Coincidentally, it was the Serbs in the previous century who claimed Macedonian Slavs where not Bulgarians.


Well, Bulgarian army conquered territory of FYR Macedonia couple of times. On the other hand , in Skopje (capitol of today's FYR Macedonia) Serbian Emperor lived, was crowned, proclaimed constitution... Just from the attitude towards the territory, one can assume what people lived in there. Read the first three paragraphs, and you'll get the picture about what was happening there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dušan's_Code

I don't even know why Bulgarians had pretensions on that territory in 19-20 century. It was always more logical for them to try to take control of the Thrace (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Thrace_and_present-day_state_borderlines.png) and Constantinopole. Having control of Bosphorus and Dardanelles, having no one behind your back, having territorial integrity supported by physical geography would be numerous times better than controlling strategically unimportant and poor territory as is FYR of Macedonia. My opinion is that allied with Greece they could have easily done that, but some other international factors gave them a clue that it was never going to happen.

Garrick
07-11-13, 01:07
Bulgarians and Greeks.

According haplogroups today's Macedonians are the closest to Serbs.

You can see research of Pericic et al.:

R1a Serbs: 15.9, Macedonians: 15.2
R1b Serbs: 10.6, Macedonians: 5.1
I1b (old nomenclature) Serbs: 29.2 Macedonians 29.1
E3b1 (old nomenclature) Serbs: 20.4 Macedonians: 24.1
J2f (probably old nomenclature) Serbs: 2.70, Macedonians: 2.50
Etc.

Another researches have something bigger differences but still Macedonians are the closest to Serbs. Haplogroups of Bulgarians and especially Greeks are much more diverse.

If you look for example haplogroups in a larger country, for example Italy, you can see much greater differences in haplogroups by Italian region than in relation between Serbs and Macedonians which are similar.

Marko94
12-11-13, 21:54
I'd like to know what think the Bulgarians about the fyrom.

intorg
19-11-13, 10:12
There is no distinct ethnic formula for Macedonians. Because the Balkans is the region on which many tribes and ethnic people settled and fighted with each other, one can not says Macedonians are mostly Bulgarian, Turkish or Greek.


http://irglobal.blogspot.com/

Dianatomia
19-11-13, 18:51
There is no distinct ethnic formula for Macedonians. Because the Balkans is the region on which many tribes and ethnic people settled and fighted with each other, one can not says Macedonians are mostly Bulgarian, Turkish or Greek.


http://irglobal.blogspot.com/

Well, when speaking about modern ethnic groups one could assume that one has a diverse origin. I.e. modern Bulgarians will have mostly Thracian and Slavic origin (among others). In that respect the Macedonian Slavs might have essentially the same lineage though. I think there is a scientific basis to make such claims. Sometimes we have the tendency to over complicate things in the Balkans. Basically in antiquity the Balkans was populated by Greeks, Thracians and Illyrians. Later in the middle ages came a Slavic wave which was absorbed by the locals. All modern peoples in the Balkans, like Vlachs, Albanians, Greeks, Macedonians Slavs, Serbs etc. belong to one of these groups or are a mix of these groups. Even Turks in the Balkans are in that respect mostly indigenous. So all of these groups intermixing with each other does not really impact the genetic pool of the region. Because they are all modern formations of a few ethnic groups which inhabited the peninsula. That's why Bulgarians and Macedonian Slavs could be closely related.

Garrick
20-11-13, 00:07
Well, when speaking about modern ethnic groups one could assume that one has a diverse origin. I.e. modern Bulgarians will have mostly Thracian and Slavic origin (among others). In that respect the Macedonian Slavs might have essentially the same lineage though. I think there is a scientific basis to make such claims. Sometimes we have the tendency to over complicate things in the Balkans. Basically in antiquity the Balkans was populated by Greeks, Thracians and Illyrians. Later in the middle ages came a Slavic wave which was absorbed by the locals. All modern peoples in the Balkans, like Vlachs, Albanians, Greeks, Macedonians Slavs, Serbs etc. belong to one of these groups or are a mix of these groups. Even Turks in the Balkans are in that respect mostly indigenous. So all of these groups intermixing with each other does not really impact the genome of a region. Because they are all modern formations of a few ethnic groups which inhabited the peninsula. That's why Bulgarians and Macedonian Slavs could be closely related.

But genetically Macedonian Slavs and Serbs are closer related than Bulgarians. If you observe linguistics it is different situation but we can argue about Serbian and Macedonian. In Serbia (East Serbia, Old Serbia) there was regions where people had language between today's Serbian and Macedonian, but reform of the Serbian language canceled East Serbian and Old Serbian dialects.

To resume by haplogroups (Y-DNA) Slavic Macedonians are closer to Serbs, by linguistics Macedonian is closer to East and Old Serbian (but it is not standard Serbian language) and probably Bulgarian. It would be interesting that someone say about similarities/differences between Macedonian and Bulgarian. Otherwise all three languages are similar, when I'm with Macedonians and Bulgarians in a foreign country we communicate in our mother languages and someone wonders how we understand each other when we live in three different countries.

Closeness Slavic Macedonians toward Serbs is probably higher than Bulgarians (Serbs are probably better feel in Macedonia) and in culture, music etc. Serbian impact is high. Life is long in the same state.

oreo_cookie
20-11-13, 21:49
I don't know why people discount that many people in northern Greece may be genetically similar to Macedonians, especially considering that ancient Macedonians were a Greek group.. so modern Macedonians are Slavicized but still maintain some of their ancient ancestry, and northern Greece itself had been influenced by Slavs at one point even though Greeks have kept their language and culture.

Garrick
22-11-13, 00:58
I don't know why people discount that many people in northern Greece may be genetically similar to Macedonians, especially considering that ancient Macedonians were a Greek group.. so modern Macedonians are Slavicized but still maintain some of their ancient ancestry, and northern Greece itself had been influenced by Slavs at one point even though Greeks have kept their language and culture.

Serbs and Slavic Macedonians are one of part Thracians. Problem with Slavic Macedonians is because they can have Paeoninian blood, and probably the part of Slavic Macedonians/and South East Serbs are Paeonians. But no Antic Macedonians.

Antic Macedonians and Paeonians don't have same origin. Paeonians are Thracian tribe. Macedonians are probably Doric tribe.

Dianatomia
22-11-13, 16:49
Serbs and Slavic Macedonians are one of part Thracians. Problem with Slavic Macedonians is because they can have Paeoninian blood, and probably the part of Slavic Macedonians/and South East Serbs are Paeonians. But no Antic Macedonians.

Antic Macedonians and Paeonians don't have same origin. Paeonians are Thracian tribe. Macedonians are probably Doric tribe.

Seems pretty accurate, but some Slavic Macedonians also lived in parts classical Macedonia which is now part of Greece. Though I am still not convinced that as a whole Macedonian Slavs are closer to Serbs than Bulgarians. Perhaps south east Serbs who are part Paeonian are closer to Slavic Macedonians and Bulgarians.

Garrick
22-11-13, 18:33
Seems pretty accurate, but some Slavic Macedonians also lived in parts classical Macedonia which is now part of Greece. Though I am still not convinced that as a whole Macedonian Slavs are closer to Serbs than Bulgarians. Perhaps south east Serbs who are part Paeonian are closer to Slavic Macedonians and Bulgarians.

Genetic similarity Slavic Macedonians and Serbs is logical and natural, because Morava-Vardar axis. And history, today's Macedonia (Upper Macedonia) was part of Serbian state. Yes, there are genetic similarities in all region (Aegean Macedonia, Upper Macedonia, East and Old Serbia and West Bulgaria). But original Macedonians are Doric tribe and today's Slavic Macedonians as Serbs are descendants of Thracian/Illyrian/Slavic tribes and genetic differences with today's Greeks are aparent.

Therefore Antic monuments in Skopje are failure and kitsch, and it is comic. It is not history of today's inhabitans of Skopje. I love to go to Skopje but this with Greek antique and history makes no sense. It would bi same when Serbs called themselves Egyptians. And when in Belgrade and another Serbian towns would begin to build Egyptian monuments and buildings.

Aspar
31-07-18, 23:00
But genetically Macedonian Slavs and Serbs are closer related than Bulgarians.

I can't stop laughing :D
Why do you feel the need to keep lying when something can be easily debunked?

https://s15.postimg.cc/rc5uxatyz/IMG_0593-balkan.png (https://postimages.org/)image hosting free (https://postimages.org/)

Eurogenes K13:



#
Population
Percent


1
East_Med
22.05


2
North_Atlantic
21.34


3
Baltic
21.03


4
West_Med
18.47


5
West_Asian
10.96


6
Red_Sea
4.71


7
Amerindian
1.06


8
Oceanian
0.25


9
Northeast_African
0.12



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
Bulgarian
4.31


2
Greek_Thessaly
6


3
Romanian
6.07


4
Serbian
10.02


5
Tuscan
12.4


6
Italian_Abruzzo
12.58


7
Central_Greek
12.86


8
West_Sicilian
13.87


9
East_Sicilian
13.93


10
North_Italian
14.5


11
Ashkenazi
15.53


12
Moldavian
15.89


13
South_Italian
17.13


14
Hungarian
18.23


15
Croatian
18.71


16
Austrian
20.57


17
Portuguese
20.98


18
Spanish_Extremadura
21.71


19
Spanish_Galicia
21.74


20
French
21.95



Eurogenes K15:



#
Population
Percent


1
East_Med
20.58


2
North_Sea
16.02


3
West_Med
14.96


4
Atlantic
12.5


5
Baltic
11.54


6
Eastern_Euro
10.23


7
West_Asian
9.48


8
Red_Sea
4.33


9
Amerindian
0.37



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
Greek_Thessaly
5.94


2
Bulgarian
7.55


3
Romanian
8.09


4
Greek
8.52


5
Serbian
9.97


6
Ashkenazi
10.9


7
Tuscan
11.08


8
Italian_Abruzzo
11.43


9
Central_Greek
11.71


10
East_Sicilian
12.46


11
West_Sicilian
12.77


12
North_Italian
13.95


13
South_Italian
15.2


14
Moldavian
15.49


15
Hungarian
17.24


16
Austrian
17.73


17
Croatian
17.76


18
Italian_Jewish
18.15


19
Spanish_Galicia
19.31


20
Sephardic_Jewish
19.35




As you can see, the Serbian average is nowhere that close to me as some others are.
In fact, the Bulgarians, the Romanians, the Albanians are all closer to me than the Serbs are.
I have nothing against the Serbs, however I am allergic of lies, especially when someone is lying deliberately...

drsibel
15-10-20, 11:45
my mother and her family are of Macedonian (greek) descent; as phenotype, they are more close to Serbs

Boreas
17-10-20, 06:00
12365

























For Macedonia case, Cyprus was also Greek Colony, but their genetic structure is very far that they deserve to call another name.

Also Ancient Macedonia was actually pretty new Greek Colony so I don't believe that they were full or highly Greek.

(Very different than Albanian in Kosova and Albanian in Albania.)

And It is obvious they are more close their North-Western neighbours

Yetos
17-10-20, 11:30
12365

























For Macedonia case, Cyprus was also Greek Colony, but their genetic structure is very far that they deserve to call another name.

Also Ancient Macedonia was actually pretty new Greek Colony so I don't believe that they were full or highly Greek.

(Very different than Albanian in Kosova and Albanian in Albania.)

And It is obvious they are more close their North-Western neighbours


Makedonia a Greek colony? !!!!!!!!! :laughing: :laughing:
it is like calling Uzbeki and China Turkic populations are colonies from Constantinoupolis.
or Turks of Turkey have same DNA as Uygurs of China?
should we call western Aegean Turks as Greeks following your opinion.

bigsnake49
17-10-20, 20:23
Makedonia a Greek colony? !!!!!!!!! :laughing: :laughing:
it is like calling Uzbeki and China Turkic populations are colonies from Constantinoupolis.
or Turks of Turkey have same DNA as Uygurs of China?
should we call western Aegean Turks as Greeks following your opinion.

Some of the West Anatolian Turks are most probably Islamized Greeks from Rhodes, Crete and the other Aegean islands. Some of the old people still speak Greek.

Boreas
18-10-20, 17:16
Makedonia a Greek colony? !!!!!!!!! :laughing: :laughing:
Save your breath to you. I won't discuss the reality with you

Just look at the Trojan War participants. I don't see any Macedonians in the Agemmennon side.
http://www.wikiwand.com/simple/Trojan_War

Macedonia is one of the first colony of Greeks

Yes, because for early Greeks north of Thesally was Thrace. Early Thrace involves Macedonia too
"The historical boundaries of Thrace have varied. The ancient Greeks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ancient_Greek_tribes) employed the term "Thrace" to refer to all of the territory which lay north of Thessaly (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessaly) inhabited by the Thracians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians),"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrace



should we call western Aegean Turks as Greeks following your opinion.

You may, the similarity especially Balkan migrant Turks are high. In my Bulgarian Dad case, he is more Bulgarian and Turks. I has central asian admixture but like quarter of averange turk. I have MTDNA similarity with some Armenian (in far level, but I have)

I am OK with Science and logical hypothesis with evidences.

Yetos
18-10-20, 20:10
Save your breath to you. I won't discuss the reality with you

Just look at the Trojan War participants. I don't see any Macedonians in the Agemmennon side.
http://www.wikiwand.com/simple/Trojan_War

Macedonia is one of the first colony of Greeks

Yes, because for early Greeks north of Thesally was Thrace. Early Thrace involves Macedonia too
"The historical boundaries of Thrace have varied. The ancient Greeks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ancient_Greek_tribes) employed the term "Thrace" to refer to all of the territory which lay north of Thessaly (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessaly) inhabited by the Thracians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians),"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrace



You may, the similarity especially Balkan migrant Turks are high. In my Bulgarian Dad case, he is more Bulgarian and Turks. I has central asian admixture but like quarter of averange turk. I have MTDNA similarity with some Armenian (in far level, but I have)

I am OK with Science and logical hypothesis with evidences.

tottaly wrong, Makedonians as Dorians bellong to the Hellenic world not Mycenean,
Makedonians belong to the primitive stuff of what you call Greeks,
and never a Greek colony,
Besides majority of scientist believes so,
So your opinion is respected but rejected.
When a Makedonian calls the sea Dalaghan is obvious with inner lingustic laws will turn to Greek Thalassa,
so better rethink your aproach to history.
just think why the Myceneans had the Gods at mt Olymp. when hardly was limit of their world?

the mycenean world.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/33/Mycenaean_World_en.png/1200px-Mycenaean_World_en.png


the proto-Hellenic world (Greek, non Mycenean)
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6134/6014521423_c3a69c7ca0.jpg


I repeat, what you say it is like calling Uyghurs are settlers from Constantinoupolis,
and their language is after modern Turkish.

when Makedonian language has pre-Greekforms, like D instead of Θ, B instead V-F, etc.
It is Atopon to call them S Greek colony, cause they would speak as S Greeks,
A colony follows the grammar and linguistic form of colonists,
Such thing did NOT exist in Makedonians, and you know it, and is the primary arque of every anti-Makedonian theory

Btw
If you ever pass from Central Makedonia or mt Olymp
I will gladly take you to the archaiological sites, to see the different areas among Mycenean, Hellenic and Thracian settlements
in a range of 10 km you will see the Thacian, the Mycenean and the 'proto-Makedonian', century before Makedonian kingdom establish.

Boreas
24-10-20, 20:52
tottaly wrong, Makedonians as Dorians bellong to the Hellenic world not Mycenean,
Makedonians belong to the primitive stuff of what you call Greeks,
and never a Greek colony,

I really confused now. You said Macedonians are Dorian, but wasn't their mythtic father Dorus .

Your country name is Hellas so my reference will be mythic mother of all 4 greeks tribe Hellen. According to legends, Makednos/Makedon is related with Aeol Tribe not Dorian.

And Makednos is king of Epir not Makedonia.

Also in your map Proto Greeks homeland is not Macedonia, it is Epir. It is just their biggest expansion in your map. There are huge mountains between those areas.

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Is Mycenean İon, that's why you said not Hellenic?

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just think why the Myceneans had the Gods at mt Olymp. when hardly was limit of their world?


Probably because of mostly they accept Pelasgian pantheon.

According to this perspective, Most of Europe believes MiddleEast origin religion, because they are Middle Eastern?

Yazımı düzeltilmiş şu sorgu için sonuçları görüyorsunuz: Emathia thrace
Yine de şu sorguyu ara: Emathia thraice




Emathia and "Oesyme " Why the old writers call it part of Thrace



Btw
If you ever pass from Central Makedonia or mt Olymp
I will gladly take you to the archaiological sites, to see the different areas among Mycenean, Hellenic and Thracian settlements
in a range of 10 km you will see the Thacian, the Mycenean and the 'proto-Makedonian', century before Makedonian kingdom establish.
[/QUOTE]

Thank you for your offer, I can make you similar offer, my home is just on the way of Roman Way Via Egnatia, just out of the Constantinople city wall. And the most holy place out city where many Patriarchs have been buried, is very close.

I went to Kavala (and really like it) but I wish to see Mout Olympus.

Can you be more clear about Mycenean, Hellenic and 'proto-Makedonian (I guess my first time to hear it)?

Dianatomia
28-10-20, 11:59
The way I interpret it, is that the proto-Greek world further North is different from the Mycenaean Greek world. The Mycenaeans are more closely connected to the Minoans. They were probably a set of proto-Greeks who descended from Thessaly, Epirus and intermixed with them. Creating the Mycenaean culture. This is supported by DNA evidence. The Dorians are connected to the proto-Greek world who stayed behind and had not yet mixed with the people of the Southern part of the Greek peninsula. So the Mycenaeans are part proto-Greek, but not entirely like the Dorians. Later on, there were more migrations. Some Dorians migrated South (e.g. Spartans), while some Mycenaeans migrated North.

Some Mycenaeans from Argos could have migrated North to the Orestian mountains. There they became the rulers of a Dorian tribe and at some point decided to settle by the thousands (as legend has it) in the Aegean valley called Emathia. This was to be called Macedonia later on. And from there they expanded. As they did so, they expelled some Thracians in the West, or may have even absorbed some, and enlarged their kingdom on all sides. In the North, they absorbed some Epirtot tribes who were also part of the proto-Greek world. This resulted to the Macedonia of Philip of Macedon. A largely proto-Greek tribe whose rulers have roots from Argos. Yet, being largely proto-Greek, and not part of the Mycenaean world (other than some influences) the Greeks in the South didn't know what to make of them around the 5th century BCE. The Macedonians however, being largely proto-Greek, had no illusions of their ancestry. And their royalty was proud of being descended from the Argeads. So in essence what we are in fact contemplating is that the formation of the Hellenic ethnos has been a constantly evolving. And the Macedonians were a key piece of that puzzle.

Yetos
28-10-20, 13:28
@Boreas,

it is simple,
if you come to the holy mt Olympos, at the East side you will see many settlements,
like Leibeithra, which was Orpheus city and Thracian.
like Philla and Pimplia which were Makedonian
and around Herakleia you will see Mycenean like settlements,

the Aeolian and the Dorian,

Argeiad Dynasty claim ancenstry from Karanos, (Caranus)
Karanos is one of the Temenides who were Dorians, and claim ancestry from Argos and Hercules,
Temenides entered peloponese, Karanos went to Argos, and then went North to Makedonia.
The division of upper Makedonians and argeiad Makedonians includes also an aspiration diefference among them,
argeiads had an aspiration similar to Aeolians, that has to do with PIE-> Proto-Hellenic (ProtoGreek)