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View Full Version : Is haplogroup T related to the Kurds, Azeri, Persians or Omani ?



Sile
29-12-13, 19:10
I believe that some of you here were misled to believe that T was high in south-western Iran because of the mistaken map of T on Wikipedia, which is based on the K in Nasidze et al. 2004. The only reliable study for hg T in Iran is the more recent Grugni et al. 2012 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252), which found mostly haplogroup L in southern Iran, and no T at all in Khuzestan and Isfahan.

Considering that there is hardly any T in the region of Elam today, and that the most common haplogroups are J2a, J1 and R1a, I would rather think that the Elamites were predominantly J2a (R1a being Indo-Iranian and J1 probably Arabic). Besides, the influence of Elam was directed eastward towards Baluchistan, where once again J2a dominates.

Haplogroup T is found mostly in Mesopotamia, then in the northern periphery where the Sumerians had colonies (Syria, eastern Anatolia, southern Caucasus). Its low frequency in historical Sumer (Iraqi marshes) is mainly due to the extremely strong presence of Arabs (74% of J1-P58), who arrived relatively recently. Additionally, that study only tested Arabs from the Al-Hawizah marshes, along the Iranian border, not between the Tigris and Euphrates. If we take out all the clearly post-Chalcolithic arrivals (J1-P58, Q, R1a and R1b), what is left in southern Iraq is J1(xP58), E1b1b, J2a, T, G and L, in that order of frequency. The Kuwait Y-DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/kuwaitdnaproject/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) can also serve as a comparison. It shows that hg T and J2a are the two most common in the region after the Semitic J1-P58 and E1b1b.

The difficulty is to determine whether J1(xP58) and T were brought by Semitic people (Akkadians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Arabs) or were already there before. E1b1b is the Afro-Asiatic haplogroup par excellence, so I would not consider it native Sumerian. J2a could be Sumerian, but it has very little diversity among southern Iraqi (especially compared to the rest of Iraq) and might well have come with the Arabs or other recent invaders.

That leaves G, E1b1b, J1(xP58) and T as the possible Sumerian+Akkadian haplogroups. I don't have any details about the subclades of haplogroup G found in Iraq, so I cannot judge when it could have arrived.

if we check the 2012 link you provided, the main T % ( over 5%) happen in assyrias, azeri, kurd and western Persian lands ( there are no persians in eastern Iran )

But, the paper deals with mostly J1 and J2
Akkadian seems the best for T as it heads towards assyria and kurdistan .......IIRC the latest count of T in assyrians sits at 15.4%

looking through various project site, this below on the azeri is interesting in that it shows zero T for iranin azeri, while "true" azeri have T

Y-DNA of "true" Azeris
J2a-20.8%
R1a-19%
R1b-17.5%
E1b-11.1%
G2-8.0%
T-7.9%
L-4.8%
J1-4.8%
Q-4.8%
N-1.6%

Y-DNA of Iranian Azeris
J2b-21.11%
R1b-15.15%
G2-12.12%
J1-9.09%
R1a-9.09%
Q-9.09%
N-6.06%
L-3.03%
J2a-3.03%
R2-3.03%
G1-3.03%
C3-3.03%
O-3.03%

and J2a appears in the true azeri , while iranian azeri have J2b

EDIT...error by me...persians are in central and eastern Iran and not in western iran..............so the chart in link refers to central and eastern persians

Goga
29-12-13, 19:51
Millions of ethnic Kurds have been assimilated into the Azeri nation in Azerbaijan. Even the president of the republic of Azerbaijdan, Ilham Aliyev, has Kurdish roots.

Goga
29-12-13, 19:57
Kurdistansky Uyezd (Red Kurdistan)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistansky_Uyezd

Forced assimilation and ethnic cleansing in the Republic of Azerbaijan
http://arpush85.livejournal.com/583.html

Kurds in Azerbaijan face threat of assimilation
http://www.tert.am/en/news/2011/07/01/kurt/

Azerbaijan's Kurds Fear Loss Of National Identity
http://www.rferl.org/content/azerbaijan_kurds_fear_loss_national_identity/24252317.html

Goga
29-12-13, 20:02
Kurdistana Sor / Red Kurdistan
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Red_kurdistan_1930.png


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8bG2ABDTaoU

adamo
29-12-13, 20:05
Then explain the presence of T in tribes in Madagascar if only Omani Arabs and shirazi Persians of the Middle East had slave trade contact with them? Then explain the factual evidence of 8-10% T in Omanis and United Arab Emirates, with their proximity to the Persian gulf and ancient trading port of Hormuz were many Zoroastrians lived. Those T frequencies across central Iran on that map are NOT false. Kerman, Izeh; these two cities have 14% T, another test found 14% in Isfahan (others have found 7%) and 10% in Shiraz and Urmia as well. And then we take into account that T originated after K (central Iran) probably somewhere before the Pamir knot.

Goga
29-12-13, 20:05
Another old footage about ethnic Kurds in Trans-Caucasia!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d_4WWw3RPw&feature=player_embedded

adamo
29-12-13, 20:07
Goga please stop for a minute , my post needs to be addressed because it is very factual., stop posting nonsense.

Goga
29-12-13, 20:12
I don't get it. Is your question addressed to me? But I do also believe that also y0DNA hg. T was also part of the Sumerians, along with J2a and r1a and maybe e even R1b. Btw, my vids were directed to the user 'Sile'

adamo
29-12-13, 20:25
Then explain the presence of T in tribes in Madagascar if only Omani Arabs and shirazi Persians of the Middle East had slave trade contact with them? Then explain the factual evidence of 8-10% T in Omanis and United Arab Emirates, with their proximity to the Persian gulf and ancient trading port of Hormuz were many Zoroastrians lived. Those T frequencies across central Iran on that map are NOT false. Kerman, Izeh; these two cities have 14% T, another test found 14% in Isfahan (others have found 7%) and 10% in Shiraz and Urmia as well. And then we take into account that T originated after K (central Iran) probably somewhere before the Pamir knot.

adamo
29-12-13, 21:16
Needs to be addressed.

Aberdeen
30-12-13, 04:35
Then explain the presence of T in tribes in Madagascar if only Omani Arabs and shirazi Persians of the Middle East had slave trade contact with them? Then explain the factual evidence of 8-10% T in Omanis and United Arab Emirates, with their proximity to the Persian gulf and ancient trading port of Hormuz were many Zoroastrians lived. Those T frequencies across central Iran on that map are NOT false. Kerman, Izeh; these two cities have 14% T, another test found 14% in Isfahan (others have found 7%) and 10% in Shiraz and Urmia as well. And then we take into account that T originated after K (central Iran) probably somewhere before the Pamir knot.

If I had to take a quick guess, I'd say that traders from east Africa and what is now Iraq found Madagascar to be a good place to build trading outposts.

adamo
30-12-13, 05:05
They came from Oman and Iran near the Persian gulf via literally the port of Hormuz big-Berdeen....how could these Arab slave traders have come from east Africa, they certainly ended up going to Somalia and the Horn of Africa; they didn't originate there.

Alan
30-12-13, 13:49
if we check the 2012 link you provided, the main T % ( over 5%) happen in assyrias, azeri, kurd and western Persian lands ( there are no persians in eastern Iran )

But, the paper deals with mostly J1 and J2
Akkadian seems the best for T as it heads towards assyria and kurdistan .......IIRC the latest count of T in assyrians sits at 15.4%

looking through various project site, this below on the azeri is interesting in that it shows zero T for iranin azeri, while "true" azeri have T

Y-DNA of "true" Azeris
J2a-20.8%
R1a-19%
R1b-17.5%
E1b-11.1%
G2-8.0%
T-7.9%
L-4.8%
J1-4.8%
Q-4.8%
N-1.6%

Y-DNA of Iranian Azeris
J2b-21.11%
R1b-15.15%
G2-12.12%
J1-9.09%
R1a-9.09%
Q-9.09%
N-6.06%
L-3.03%
J2a-3.03%
R2-3.03%
G1-3.03%
C3-3.03%
O-3.03%

and J2a appears in the true azeri , while iranian azeri have J2b

EDIT...error by me...persians are in central and eastern Iran and not in western iran..............so the chart in link refers to central and eastern persians


Ancient Persians are from Southwest Iran, but if we speak about modern Persian speakers, they live in Southwest, Central, North and Northeast Iran.


Millions of ethnic Kurds have been assimilated into the Azeri nation in Azerbaijan. Even the president of the republic of Azerbaijdan, Ilham Aliyev, has Kurdish roots.

It is true that the Aliyevs are Kurds


Many Kurds were assimilated but there are still a ~100000 non assimilated Kurds there.

Azeris in general are basically assimilates Kurds and Caucasus Albanians.

Alan
30-12-13, 14:09
I don't know about the T in Madagascar. But haplogroup T is approximately 30,000 years old, in other words older than R*, and perhaps older than the split between Q and R. Hg T is very common in the Horn of Africa, so I don't see why migrations from that region couldn't have brought T to Madagascar at some point since the Ice Age.

It likely didn't because it belongs to the IJKLT* strain of the yDNA tree and it's highest diversity is in the Middle East. Likely T was brought to East Africa by back migration of farmers.

Maciamo
30-12-13, 15:09
It likely didn't because it belongs to the IJKLT* strain of the yDNA tree and it's highest diversity is in the Middle East. Likely T was brought to East Africa by back migration of farmers.

Or T was present all over the Middle East and East Africa during the late Paleolithic, and Middle Eastern farmers brought new subclades of T to East Africa. The problem with hg T is that it is seriously understudied. Just have a look at the phylogenetic tree. It's considerably smaller than that of R1b-L21 subclades, even though T is 20,000 to 35,000 years old and spread over 3 continents, while R1b-L21 is barely 5000 years old and all tucked in Northwest Europe. If T was properly studied its number of subclades might well exceed all those of R1b. Until we get proper data it's almost impossible to determine the history of T.

Alan
30-12-13, 16:55
Or T was present all over the Middle East and East Africa during the late Paleolithic, and Middle Eastern farmers brought new subclades of T to East Africa. The problem with hg T is that it is seriously understudied. Just have a look at the phylogenetic tree. It's considerably smaller than that of R1b-L21 subclades, even though T is 20,000 to 35,000 years old and spread over 3 continents, while R1b-L21 is barely 5000 years old and all tucked in Northwest Europe. If T was properly studied its number of subclades might well exceed all those of R1b. Until we get proper data it's almost impossible to determine the history of T.

As I said, I believe T* played a much higher role in the far past.

adamo
30-12-13, 17:07
You are all wrong. T did not come from the Horn of Africa to Madagascar, there is clear indication of Omani Arab and shirazi Persian settlment not only on the island, but among those tribes high in T. Many of those tribes have different founding stories, such as being founde by a sheik of Mecca (Saudi Arabia) and many of his followers. Even if T DID arrive from the Horn of Africa, it was imported via Arab slave trade regardless, when Arabs made contact with the region. Now that doesn't imply that T originated in the above mentioned two regions, as T haplotypes are much younger in Oman than say Egypt or turkey and the levant for example. But T haplotypes are old in Iran as well (slightly younger if not the same relative age as the Levantine ones) and surprisingly young in Horn of Africa and other minor parts of Africa.

adamo
30-12-13, 17:14
I highly disagree with your opinions, even if Africans brought it to Madagascar, it arrived from a different source there originally too , with the tribes with T having founding origins from Quraish Adnani Arabs, tribe of Mohammed of Mecca (Saudi Arabia)

Aberdeen
30-12-13, 17:31
You are all wrong. T did not come from the Horn of Africa to Madagascar, there is clear indication of Omani Arab and shirazi Persian settlment not only on the island, but among those tribes high in T. Many of those tribes have different founding stories, such as being founde by a sheik of Mecca (Saudi Arabia) and many of his followers. Even if T DID arrive from the Horn of Africa, it was imported via Arab slave trade regardless, when Arabs made contact with the region. Now that doesn't imply that T originated in the above mentioned two regions, as T haplotypes are much younger in Oman than say Egypt or turkey and the levant for example. But T haplotypes are old in Iran as well (slightly younger if not the same relative age as the Levantine ones) and surprisingly young in Horn of Africa and other minor parts of Africa.

Are you arguing that Shirazi Persians sacked Uruk over 5000 years ago? I hope not. And the modern day Persians I know would slap you if you called them Arabs - they'd consider it an insult.

adamo
30-12-13, 18:04
No; no I'm not arguing that.....just re-read what I wrote . Omani Arabs and shirazi Persian arrived in 700 A.D. In 1000-1100 A.D. More Arabs arrived including Zanzibari slave traders, with the foundation stories associated with antemoro and antanosy people.

Sile
30-12-13, 19:44
I don't know about the T in Madagascar. But haplogroup T is approximately 30,000 years old, in other words older than R*, and perhaps older than the split between Q and R. Hg T is very common in the Horn of Africa, so I don't see why migrations from that region couldn't have brought T to Madagascar at some point since the Ice Age.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0080932

Sile
30-12-13, 19:49
Or T was present all over the Middle East and East Africa during the late Paleolithic, and Middle Eastern farmers brought new subclades of T to East Africa. The problem with hg T is that it is seriously understudied. Just have a look at the phylogenetic tree. It's considerably smaller than that of R1b-L21 subclades, even though T is 20,000 to 35,000 years old and spread over 3 continents, while R1b-L21 is barely 5000 years old and all tucked in Northwest Europe. If T was properly studied its number of subclades might well exceed all those of R1b. Until we get proper data it's almost impossible to determine the history of T.

Klyosov said that a lot of northern T could have mutated into R1a as there is only 9 mutations that is between ( seems a lot to me)
T and R1a
9 :2 =4,5 = 18,000 years ( at 4000 years per mutation change)
Klyosov, AA (2011) Haplotypes of R1b1a2-P312 and related subclades: origin and "ages" of most recent common ancestors. Proceedings of the Russian Academy of DNA Genealogy, v.4, No. 6, 1127-1195.

adamo
30-12-13, 20:26
It's just funny nobody has answered my conclusions yet

Maciamo
31-12-13, 10:22
Klyosov said that a lot of northern T could have mutated into R1a as there is only 9 mutations that is between ( seems a lot to me)
T and R1a
9 :2 =4,5 = 18,000 years ( at 4000 years per mutation change)
Klyosov, AA (2011) Haplotypes of R1b1a2-P312 and related subclades: origin and "ages" of most recent common ancestors. Proceedings of the Russian Academy of DNA Genealogy, v.4, No. 6, 1127-1195.

One haplogroup mutating into another one ? Now that's just silly, Sile (sorry, couldn't resist).

Maciamo
31-12-13, 10:25
It's just funny nobody has answered my conclusions yet

Feeling ignored ?

Maciamo
31-12-13, 10:41
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0080932

Well it looks like this question about T in Madagascar just answered itself. Madagascarian men are a composite of three populations:

1) Austronesian O1a2 and O2a1
2) Middle Eastern J1 and T, with a pinch of R1a and J2b for seasoning, and a lone E1b1b sample.
3) Black African B2a, E1b1a and E2b

Their maternal side is overwhelmingly Black African and Southeast Asian though. No Middle Eastern mtDNA.

Note that J1 and T (and the single E1b1b) were found together in Anteoni, where there was hardly any Black African Y-DNA. Black African lineages were found in Ampanabaka, where there was no E1b1b, J1 or T.

Interestingly R1a and J2b are found mostly in Antaloatra, and are completely absent from Anteoni. So they might not have come with the J1 and T1 migration, but probably much later. If medieval Omani had brought J1 and T1, they would already have had R1a and J2b with them too (and vice versa). Therefore, based on this data, it would seem that J1 and T1 reached Madagascar before the Indo-Europeans brought R1a and J2b to the Arabian peninsula during the Late Bronze Age.

J1 is thought to have migrated from the Fertile Crescent to East Africa, Yemen and Oman some 9000 years ago, with pre-pottery herders-hunters. T1 might well have accompanied it, since both are common in the Zagros region. If J1 and T1 reached Madagascar before the Iranian invasions of the Middle East, there is a good chance that they spread all the way to the Horn of Africa, then to Madagascar in one go. Given that female lineages in Madagascar are all L (except for the Southeast Asian ones), it appears that J1 and T Neolithic herders took local wives as they advanced. The same is supposed to have happened with R1b-V88 cattle herders from the Levant to the Sudan and the Sahel (Hausa and Fula people, who have higher percentages of R1b-V88 but only mtDNA L).

This is the best hint so far that African T1 originated in the Middle East and spread alongside J1 during the Early Neolithic, but that E1b1b was probably not part of this migration. This would imply that the original Sumerians could really have been an admixture of J1 and T.


Note that the Black African B2a, E1b1a and E2b are now all found at low frequencies in the Arabian peninsula. These would have been the slaves brought by the medieval Arabs from Africa.

adamo
31-12-13, 20:25
I still disagree as the founding legends of these people clearly indicate they had Iranian, Omani and Saudi ancestry, the same groups where T and J1 are present.

LeBrok
31-12-13, 20:37
This is the best hint so far that African T1 originated in the Middle East and spread alongside J1 during the Early Neolithic,


I still disagree as the founding legends of these people clearly indicate they had Iranian, Omani and Saudi ancestry, the same groups where T and J1 are present.
:banghead:

adamo
31-12-13, 23:52
What does that mean LOL

Sile
02-01-14, 05:30
@adamo,

So, its settled for you now !

Ydna T origins are northern Iran/south of the Caspian sea..................they are herder/hunters ..............finding women and breeding on the move ........which means, NO dynastic BIG ydna pockets

adamo
02-01-14, 06:14
How do you know they were herder-hunters? Are you sure it originated in northern Iran? The highest concentrations are in the south. Weren't the Elamites heavy in T?

adamo
02-01-14, 06:33
But other than that yeah; it's pretty much settled for me. It certainly has an Iranian presence according to the Wikipedia map stretching from Izeh to Kerman with the Shiraz region included ( a "high" of 10-15%). This isn't much but it certainly points us towards the possible point of origin as we know that it originated in the Middle East. What makes me doubt this hypothesis consistently though is the constant low values for T found in national-level studies of Iran (never passing 2-5%). Even studies on Iraq postulate that 5-13% of Iraqi men on a national level belong to T. Ethiopia scores 7% whereas Somalia has double that. Egypt has 6-16% and Jordan according to geno 2.0 has 15-20%; the highest frequencies in any single country. The Balearic Islands (15%) and Sicly (5-18%) can have interesting frequencies as well.

Sile
02-01-14, 06:50
How do you know they were herder-hunters? Are you sure it originated in northern Iran? The highest concentrations are in the south. Weren't the Elamites heavy in T?

Marciano said so

Marciano stated zargos mountains

concentrations mean nothing for herder hunters

unsure on the elamites, a chance along with Uruk who where conquered by the Akkadians ( assyrians )


One reason some haplogroups dominate ...........they are a ruling class and have a large concubine. Their sons follow suit and have a large concubine............we still see this system in Zululand in the 19th century ........read.... ..A Washing of the Spears

adamo
02-01-14, 07:18
Mmmmm....yeah; the Zagros mountains seem plausible as they stretch far into the Elamite region of western Iran. According to the Wikipedia map, the highest frequencies are in Elam, khuzestan, busher, fars, Kerman and hormozgan provinces of Iran.

Alan
09-01-14, 01:51
wrong section.

adamo
14-01-14, 08:47
Very interesting to note that when the Thomas Jefferson study was published (back in the K2 days) T was only found in more than 7% of males from Egypt, Oman, Somalia and Iraq, although info on the lineage was much more scarce as well.

Sile
14-01-14, 10:05
Very interesting to note that when the Thomas Jefferson study was published (back in the K2 days) T was only found in more than 7% of males from Egypt, Oman, Somalia and Iraq, although info on the lineage was much more scarce as well.

Jefferson for you

http://originhunters.blogspot.com.au/2013/03/the-dna-of-thomas-jefferson-insert.html

adamo
14-01-14, 10:50
So they postulate an origin on the southern Arabian peninsula 8,000 years ago, if you check out y-DNA T ftdna group clusters it would make sense lol