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ElHorsto
01-01-14, 16:12
In the eurogenes blog I came across a highly interesting comment from 'Matt (http://bga101.blogspot.de/2013/12/eef-whg-ane-test-for-europeans.html?showComment=1388577079765#c63260894 1440649911)' where he used a face transformer to mix Spanish (alias EEF), Lithuanian (alias WHG/ANE) and Georgian/Armenian average male faces together. The resulting face is labelled 'Population X' which he proposes to look like Kurgan people, however.

This one is Lithuanian+Spanish+Armenian and I must say that 'Population X' face looks strikingly European, in particular typically Russian.
http://i.imgur.com/BIdf5E6.png


This one is Lithuanian+Spanish+Georgian and I find that 'Population X' face looks still somewhat similar to the one in the Armenian version, but would fit also very well in Britain or France.
http://i.imgur.com/23krS7H.png


I find that the results fit best to contemporary european nations, especially with predominatly R1b and R1a populations. It is remarkable how the two ancestral european faces (Lithuanian, Spanish) appear much more 'rugged' when admixed by Caucasus-like admixture (perhaps Caucasus/Gedrosia). Yet I would have expected the Armenian version to be the one more similar to west europeans than the Georgian version.

I think if this experiment is correct, it could very well illustrate the contemporary european mixture of Hunter-Gatherers + Neolithic farmers and West-Asian (e.g. Indo-European). Or do they look not yet completely european, perhaps more 'Kurgan'?

Any thoughts?

Alan
01-01-14, 16:45
I wouldn't have used Armenian face (Georgian face isn't ideal either but better though). Much better fit would have been Lezgian, Chechen, Kurd, Iranian or Kalash face (three populations with more balanced Gedrosia-Caucasus component), which also are closer to the Mal'ta individual. While the Armenians are very strong in Mediterranean-Southwest Asian component too and they have less levels of Gedrosia.

Armenians or Assyrians are too Dinarized/Armenized, skeletal foundings from the past indiciate that the Cauacasus populations were rather dolichocephal to mesocephalic.

Also out of all the other Caucasians Armenians have the highest incidence of Mediterranean-Southwest Asian component which is already represented by EEF.



But anyways I agree the Armenians, Lithuanian, Spanish looks remarkable Russian. The Georgian admixed one looks just European.

Alan
01-01-14, 17:23
But than that the ANE close Mal'ta Individual was something like 1/3 North Euro and 1/3 Caucasus_Gedrosia, is a prove to me that the Caucasus_Gedrosia signal into Europe must have come through the Indo Europeans during the Bronze Age.

ElHorsto
01-01-14, 17:27
I wouldn't have used Armenian face (Georgian face isn't ideal either but better though). Much better fit would have been Lezgian, Chechen, Kurd, Iranian or Kalash face (three populations with more balanced Gedrosia-Caucasus component), which also are closer to the Mal'ta individual. While the Armenians are very strong in Mediterranean-Southwest Asian component too and they have less levels of Gedrosia.

Certainly not ideal choices, agree. The higher Caucasus/Gedrosia ratio in Armenians was possibly the reason why face X appears more eastern than western european. If it were more Gedrosian I bet it would look more western.




Armenians or Assyrians are too Dinarized/Armenized, skeletal foundings from the past indiciate that the Cauacasus populations were rather dolichocephal to mesocephalic.


I don't think that's a big problem. Dinarid skulls were found in west european Bell-Beakers and Armenians are heavy in R1b too (not suggesting a direct link, but possibly an indirect one). Further, west Balkans was possibly an important station of the IEans as there are old R1b clades present too, as well as gedrosian STR in Albanians (see DNATribes digest from 2012) and even a bit more Gedrosian SNPs than in NE-europe. Many think that dinarid is absent in west europe today, but I doubt it. I think in slight concentration it is still there and might have contributed to pseudo-Cro-Magnoid square-like skulls and larger faces/eye-sockets in many north-west europeans.



Also out of all the other Caucasians Armenians have the highest incidence of Mediterranean-Southwest Asian component which is already represented by EEF.


That's probably no big problem either, because EEF is already mostly supplied by the Spanish picture, such that minor additional EEF will not change that much relatively.



But anyways I agree the Armenians, Lithuanian, Spanish looks remarkable Russian. The Georgian admixed one looks just European.

Yes, exactly. I wonder whether a Baloch face would result in an even more west european face, but this is not sure because Baloch is admixed with others already.

Alan
01-01-14, 18:05
Yes, exactly. I wonder whether a Baloch face would result in an even more west european face, but this is not sure because Baloch is admixed with others already.


Thats one reason, but rather a small one. The reason why I didn't said use Baloch samples was exactly the same why I said Georgians aren't ideal either. They are basically the other extreme of the end. Just like the West Asian component in Georgians is almost exclusively Caucasus so is it in Balochis Gedrosia.

Lezgians, Kurds, Iranians, Kalash and Chechens on the other hand have a more balanced frequency of both.

Here is a good composition of 70+ Kurdish football players from Iraqi Kurdistan made by "RacialReality". The difference to the above images is the lightning.6157

ElHorsto
01-01-14, 23:48
This one is Lithuanian+Spanish+Armenian and I must say that 'Population X' face looks strikingly European, in particular typically Russian.
http://i.imgur.com/BIdf5E6.png


This one is Lithuanian+Spanish+Georgian and I find that 'Population X' face looks still somewhat similar to the one in the Armenian version, but would fit also very well in Britain or France.
http://i.imgur.com/23krS7H.png





Cherrypicked this one picture of Liam Gallagher (English, but Irish ancestry) as proof of existence, which I think resembles the second face X:
http://www.exposay.com/celebrity-photos2/liam%20gallagher.jpg