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Angela
02-01-14, 19:16
We seem to have some posters who are very adept at classification, which is a mystery to me.

Could some of you classify these women?
The first two pictures are of the same woman.

6161 6163

6165

ED.I don't know how the attachments got on here. Can someone pm me and let me know how to get rid of them?

Otherwise I can't post a profile view of the second woman.

Nobody1
02-01-14, 20:20
For a complete and expert classification you need to provide additional bathing-suite pics. - if possible topless; Otherwise no chance;

Angela
02-01-14, 20:51
Not nice, Nobody 1...

It's a classification of Monica Bertini's face in which I'm interested. Plus, I'm not that kind of gal! You can look her up for yourself if you must, although to my knowledge she doesn't take those kinds of photos...but don't forget to give the classification. And don't forget the second one!

What is happening to this forum? Fumes from New Year's celebrations?
Some decorum, gentlemen, please. :)

Oh, and this is the profile view of the second woman:
6166

Nobody1
02-01-14, 22:06
Not nice, Nobody 1...

http://replygif.net/i/1167.gif


It's a classification of Monica Bertini's face in which I'm interested. Plus, I'm not that kind of gal! You can look her up for yourself if you must, although to my knowledge she doesn't take those kinds of photos...but don't forget to give the classification. And don't forget the second one!

1. Mediterranid / Medit.-Dinarid
2. Noric / Medit.-Noric

Sile
03-01-14, 01:25
http://replygif.net/i/1167.gif



1. Mediterranid / Medit.-Dinarid
2. Noric / Medit.-Noric

agree

seems like NW Italy/SE France area

Sile
03-01-14, 01:27
We seem to have some posters who are very adept at classification, which is a mystery to me.

Could some of you classify these women?
The first two pictures are of the same woman.

6161 6163

6165

ED.I don't know how the attachments got on here. Can someone pm me and let me know how to get rid of them?

Otherwise I can't post a profile view of the second woman.

Second woman is central french highlands, bordering on old Aquatine area ...........I think there was a region in france called Berry once

Angela
03-01-14, 06:15
http://replygif.net/i/1167.gif



1. Mediterranid / Medit.-Dinarid
2. Noric / Medit.-Noric

Thank-you, Nobody 1 :)

And yes, that was very funny...

Angela
03-01-14, 06:25
Second woman is central french highlands, bordering on old Aquatine area ...........I think there was a region in france called Berry once

They're both from Northwest Italy, Sile...actually they're both from Parma...television personalities, but women who have deep roots in Emilia, and particularly Parma. They cover the range pretty much for the women in the area. Other than the fact that my first cousin had red hair instead of blonde, she looked just like the blonde girl.

As for Monica Bertini, why is she Mediterranid/Dinaric, instead of something like AtlanoMed with Dinaric. I frankly don't see much Dinaric in her aside from the fact that she has an elegant long nose. I was also wondering what group that particularly wide face would be associated with. It's not a Mediterranean or even a Dinarid trait, is it? It's very common in Parma and the mountains.

Anyway, thanks for responding. I appreciate it. Oh, and I think both of them could be south-eastern French.

MOESAN
03-01-14, 18:30
I would not have risked a pronostic of nationality or geographic origin on this (pretty) pictures (I had already explained that: I do pronostics only about groups of 10/15...persons of the same region, not individuals - Y find only they have broead enough faces, more bony the second - for the first, she shows (for me) some mixture 'alpine'-'gracile mediterranean' concerning shapes, the second has the broad features of 'alpines' for faces but rougher: something on the 'cromagnoid' side - I 'm not able on these pictures to see other slighter mixtures, it is a sport!
the link between them seems 'alpine' with other elements; 'alpine' seems to me an heavy element in Italy as in France and other lands, whatever its assignation concerning autosomals poolings (very global sometimes), heavier in Piemeonte, parts of Lombardia and Emilia - but present everywhere in Italy at different % (only Sardigna and someparts of southern Italy have very little of 'alpine' - for a long time I think Ligurians and continental Celts (a lot of "ligurianized" and celtized people among them) were the first providers for (mesolithical?) 'alpine' in Italy - as you I see very little of 'dinaric' in these two girls if any trace of it - very dominent 'dinaric' today is rare, even in Yougoslavia (except in Bosnia-inland Dalmatia), we find very more often crossings with some 'dinaric' traits (the planoccipitally seems a dominent trait, exagerating the pronostic very often not confirmed by other parts of body or head)

Angela
03-01-14, 19:07
I would not have risked a pronostic of nationality or geographic origin on this (pretty) pictures (I had already explained that: I do pronostics only about groups of 10/15...persons of the same region, not individuals - Y find only they have broead enough faces, more bony the second - for the first, she shows (for me) some mixture 'alpine'-'gracile mediterranean' concerning shapes, the second has the broad features of 'alpines' for faces but rougher: something on the 'cromagnoid' side - I 'm not able on these pictures to see other slighter mixtures, it is a sport!
the link between them seems 'alpine' with other elements; 'alpine' seems to me an heavy element in Italy as in France and other lands, whatever its assignation concerning autosomals poolings (very global sometimes), heavier in Piemeonte, parts of Lombardia and Emilia - but present everywhere in Italy at different % (only Sardigna and someparts of southern Italy have very little of 'alpine' - for a long time I think Ligurians and continental Celts (a lot of "ligurianized" and celtized people among them) were the first providers for (mesolithical?) 'alpine' in Italy - as you I see very little of 'dinaric' in these two girls if any trace of it - very dominent 'dinaric' today is rare, even in Yougoslavia (except in Bosnia-inland Dalmatia), we find very more often crossings with some 'dinaric' traits (the planoccipitally seems a dominent trait, exagerating the pronostic very often not confirmed by other parts of body or head)

Thanks for replying, Moesan. Yes, I think there's a great deal of what is defined as "Alpine" in north-western Italy, along with Mediterranean, to various degrees, of course. At the same time, in people who originate in the mountainous areas, it's not rare to find these bony, sort of "rugged" phenotypes, and I thought perhaps it might be a "cro-magnoid" type manifestation, but I wanted to see if people more expert than I am at this sort of thing also saw it.

Thanks again for posting.

MOESAN
04-01-14, 14:16
when I say 'cromagnoid' it is a simplification: it is possible to imagnine 'cromagnon'-'alpine' crossing in ancient time but it is very possible in fact we have here the same phylum, being 'alpine' the brachycephalized form of some 'cromagnon' type: I think (and others more qualified than me) that the genuine modern infantile-like 'alpine' type is a foetalized form of the first brachycephalized 'cromagnon' achieved in Alps-Jura, when MY 'borreby cromagnoid' type is the not foetalized one (more northern):
I think 'borreby' is a mistaking term - an other 'borreby, MY 'borreby-brünnoid' type, could be the brachycephalized form of a phylum 'brünn-capelloid': we find easily the two types among Germans and Scandinavians, and the first type (cro-m) among GENUINE Lettons (very few among Lithuanians, by the way)- I found the second type among Hungarians too, more than among Czechs (I relativize all that: it was upon pictures only, not upon metric measures! but some evident traits can be seen -
based upon only TWO pictures of crania, it's true, I found the possible "ancestors" of the two types in Denmark-South Scandinavia: the 'borreby' real type (from the place of the same name) is very close to 'brünn' shapes: crania profil (high), more rugged lines, retreating brutal forehead, strong suborbitals, large orbits, very broad cheekbones (bizygoma) ,BUT less broad jaws (bigonials) - the other type, found too at Neolithical-Chalcolithical times in close region, has a steeper forehead, littler orbits, far less rugged crania lines BUT less protuding cheekbones, BUT also broader jaws... 2 skulls is very few, but I found among Swedish ice-hockey players the 2 types and the same (more often) among western Norwegians, side by side, with more often crossings (evident) between them and dolichocephallic types were 'nordic' is dominant -
&: the bracycephalization could be an internal phenomenon or a crossing result where the other traits of the supposed element disappeared progressively by raciation process ???
my opinion about the 'borreby' poor value terminology is backed up by the opinions of antrhopologists of the "old time"

Angela
04-01-14, 17:51
when I say 'cromagnoid' it is a simplification: it is possible to imagnine 'cromagnon'-'alpine' crossing in ancient time but it is very possible in fact we have here the same phylum, being 'alpine' the brachycephalized form of some 'cromagnon' type: I think (and others more qualified than me) that the genuine modern infantile-like 'alpine' type is a foetalized form of the first brachycephalized 'cromagnon' achieved in Alps-Jura, when MY 'borreby cromagnoid' type is the not foetalized one (more northern):
I think 'borreby' is a mistaking term - an other 'borreby, MY 'borreby-brünnoid' type, could be the brachycephalized form of a phylum 'brünn-capelloid': we find easily the two types among Germans and Scandinavians, and the first type (cro-m) among GENUINE Lettons (very few among Lithuanians, by the way)- I found the second type among Hungarians too, more than among Czechs (I relativize all that: it was upon pictures only, not upon metric measures! but some evident traits can be seen -
based upon only TWO pictures of crania, it's true, I found the possible "ancestors" of the two types in Denmark-South Scandinavia: the 'borreby' real type (from the place of the same name) is very close to 'brünn' shapes: crania profil (high), more rugged lines, retreating brutal forehead, strong suborbitals, large orbits, very broad cheekbones (bizygoma) ,BUT less broad jaws (bigonials) - the other type, found too at Neolithical-Chalcolithical times in close region, has a steeper forehead, littler orbits, far less rugged crania lines BUT less protuding cheekbones, BUT also broader jaws... 2 skulls is very few, but I found among Swedish ice-hockey players the 2 types and the same (more often) among western Norwegians, side by side, with more often crossings (evident) between them and dolichocephallic types were 'nordic' is dominant -
&: the bracycephalization could be an internal phenomenon or a crossing result where the other traits of the supposed element disappeared progressively by raciation process ???
my opinion about the 'borreby' poor value terminology is backed up by the opinions of antrhopologists of the "old time"

I'm going to impose on your good will some more...:)

Is this what you mean? He comes from my area.
6168

How would he fit in?
6169


Or her?6170

Sile
04-01-14, 18:07
Thanks for replying, Moesan. Yes, I think there's a great deal of what is defined as "Alpine" in north-western Italy, along with Mediterranean, to various degrees, of course. At the same time, in people who originate in the mountainous areas, it's not rare to find these bony, sort of "rugged" phenotypes, and I thought perhaps it might be a "cro-magnoid" type manifestation, but I wanted to see if people more expert than I am at this sort of thing also saw it.

Thanks again for posting.

my view is that NW Italy reference of "Alpine" includes Mediterranean, while NE Italy has far less Mediterranean and more Noric features.

Angela
04-01-14, 19:11
my view is that NW Italy reference of "Alpine" includes Mediterranean, while NE Italy has far less Mediterranean and more Noric features.

I don't quite get what you mean...Alpine is Alpine, Mediterranean is Mediterranean...people can be mostly one or the other or they can have elements of both. The Alpine doesn't *contain* Mediterranean.

As for the people of the eastern Italian Alps, I wouldn't be at all surprised, given how close they are to Slovenia and the Balkans, to find a fair dinaric component among them. I can't judge since I've only been there once. I have been in the Veneto proper numerous times, and while I saw some people who fit that description, I would hardly say that the majority of the people there are tall, blonde, plani-occipital Dinarics with long, convex noses. At least that wasn't the impression I received.

Angela
04-01-14, 19:15
Moesan, only two more, group pictures since you said that was best. And then I won't bother you any more, lol.

I'm having trouble loading them. I hope they show up as attachments.

Angela
05-01-14, 17:28
These are the group pictures, all from the province of Parma.:

http://www.navecorsara.it/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Fulgor_basket-580x413.jpg

http://www.taronews.it/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Trofeo-1.jpg

http://www.lavocedimonchio.it/LA%20FESIA.JPG

oreo_cookie
08-01-14, 01:25
First is Nordo-Med, second is Atlantid.

MOESAN
10-01-14, 22:49
I'm going to impose on your good will some more...:)

Is this what you mean? He comes from my area.
6168

How would he fit in?
6169


Or her?6170

uneasy to say - the old man have some archaïc features, between 'capelloids' and 'cromagnoids' (more cromagnoïde) - all the way, not 'near-eastern', 'not to alpine'
the three sahre something: robust jaws what could be seen as an archaïc trait - the young sportman could well have nevertheless some 'dinaric' tendancies of the old occidental model (Beakers of N-W Europe)- not"pure" - I confes it is difficult!

MOESAN
10-01-14, 22:54
These are the group pictures, all from the province of Parma.:

http://www.navecorsara.it/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Fulgor_basket-580x413.jpg

http://www.taronews.it/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Trofeo-1.jpg

http://www.lavocedimonchio.it/LA%20FESIA.JPG

even in groups it is still hard to say: could be central Italians or N-W Italians or French or Swiss people of some regions: a mix of phenotypes:
I can say: NOT Spanish, NOT Portuguese, NOT Greek, NOT British, NOT germanic NOT SCandonavian NOT anatolian NOT neareasterner, NOT Slav ... NOT typically balkanic ...
glup! it is hard!
good night

Angela
12-01-14, 20:59
even in groups it is still hard to say: could be central Italians or N-W Italians or French or Swiss people of some regions: a mix of phenotypes:
I can say: NOT Spanish, NOT Portuguese, NOT Greek, NOT British, NOT germanic NOT SCandonavian NOT anatolian NOT neareasterner, NOT Slav ... NOT typically balkanic ...
glup! it is hard!
good night

Sorry I didn't thank you. I keep missing posts on this site for some reason. Anyway, thank you. :smile:

You confirm what I have always thought...some individuals might fit in other countries, or areas of Italy, but when seen as a group, other than perhaps people from a few French or Swiss regions, they just look like either northwestern Italians or northern Tuscans.

And yes, there's a big mix of phenotypes at the same time, which might seem contradictory...sometimes even in the same family. I'm often amazed when I see group pictures from other areas and everyone has such a similar look.

Angela
12-01-14, 21:23
uneasy to say - the old man have some archaïc features, between 'capelloids' and 'cromagnoids' (more cromagnoïde) - all the way, not 'near-eastern', 'not to alpine'
the three sahre something: robust jaws what could be seen as an archaïc trait - the young sportman could well have nevertheless some 'dinaric' tendancies of the old occidental model (Beakers of N-W Europe)- not"pure" - I confes it is difficult!

Well, if it's difficult for you, it's impossible for me!

There are a lot of these more "archaic" or rugged looking people in the mountains. I don't know if perhaps some relict traits have survived there because of the isolation.

As for the man and woman they are a very particular type that is pretty common in my mother's area. I've never known how to classify that long faced, robust jawed, strong chinned look. The long nose, broader at the tip, is always part of it, it seems, and if by dinaric, you mean a convex nose, then they aren't dinaric, because the noses are absolutely straight. These people are also usually on the tall side, women as well as men, and tend to have large skulls, but I don't think I've ever seen a flat occiput...the skull seems to be long and curved at the back, but just big.

Anyway, they just have never seemed to me to fit into any of these neat classifications...I thought I'd ask.

Thanks again.