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LeBrok
04-01-14, 07:14
ANE (Ancient North Eurasians) occupied area of Northern Eurasia for thousands of years. Genome of Mal’ta boy, who inhabited Siberia 24 years ago, was designated as ANE standard. By the topography of the land and virtue of their hunter-gatherer character ANE were very nomadic people. They always had to move around fallowing migratory animals like reindeer, mammoths or horses. I’m sure when they did this for long thousands of years they developed a genetic mutation helping them to feel fun and pleasure when roaming around.
Well, most likely mutation happened to sedentary people of North, but when it happened it gave advantage to ones loving traveling longer distances, and finding more food, which in form of migratory animals tends to move a lot. Same way as mutation for digesting starches had happened before development of agriculture, or lactose persistent before dairy industry. The beneficial mutations to help people make the best of existing environment.
Just keep in mind that it is always accompanied by feeling of pleasure. Mutation of eating starches came with feeling of joy of eating starches, also milk is tasty, so there is no reason to doubt that traveling can’t give us pleasure too, if it is a beneficial mutation. I’m sure many of us love traveling, seeing new things, and going for long walks in forests or mountain tracks, even though it is exhausting and tiring, with no bigger purpose but just to have a look around and be active. Some sort of undescribed pleasure and satisfaction, but it is a real feeling.

Anyway ANE became nomadic masters with love of traveling. From ancient history we have learned that ANE traveled far and wide. They went east to America as hunter gatherers and became American Natives. They went west to Scandinavia as hunter-gatherers too. Recently it has turned that ANE Mal’ta boy had Y haplogroupe R*, possibly ancestor or at least a cousin to R1a and R1b people. It is easy to assume and be almost certain that R1a people had overwhelming ANE admixture.
Once R1 tribes became herders and successful farmers in Bronze Age, had built up their numbers, and became what we know as Indo-Europeans, they moved once again in all directions. Why? Because they loved moving around and traveling, they have the joy of roaming gene. They went to Tibet, South to India and Middle East as Indo-Iranians. Some even ventured into Africa. They also went west to Europe again, some as Corded Ware culture, others as Celtic tribes. This time they settled all over Europe giving it IE language.

Keep in mind that there were always more populous nations than nomads from North. Farmers from China or India had vast advantage in numbers and could conquer the whole world, but they never did. I guess, they must have loved to be always at home, and being away they were home sick. Same thing in Europe, neither its Hunter-Gatherers or Neolithic Farmers ventured outside Europe to conquered the world, or at least roam around a bit for fun.

Well, after Bronze Age invasion of nomadic travelers of ANE kind (R1a and R1B peoples), Europe wasn’t the same anymore. Greeks ventured into Asia with Alexander. Romans spread around half of known world, then Germanics and Slavs had to travel a bit too, followed by another wave of ANE people of Central Asia, like Huns, Tatars, Mongols and Turks. We shouldn’t even mention how rich in ANE Vikings have loved to travel places, faraway places.

I’m not sure how relevant all the English, Spanish, Dutch empires are in terms of traveling or Russian expansion east, but they are all ANE people. And I bet ANE is the most widespread admixture around the planet.

Before the ANE expansion, all civilizations or so called empires where like sizable countries. ANE people showed the world how real empire should look like.
All for the love of traveling and roaming.

PS. Arabs don’t have ANE, but being nomads, therefore having a roaming gene, they had one of biggest empires too.

Can anyone find traveling statistics per country per capita?

ElHorsto
04-01-14, 13:06
ANE (Ancient North Eurasians) occupied area of Northern Eurasia for thousands of years. Genome of Mal’ta boy, who inhabited Siberia 24 years ago, was designated as ANE standard. By the topography of the land and virtue of their hunter-gatherer character ANE were very nomadic people. They always had to move around fallowing migratory animals like reindeer, mammoths or horses. I’m sure when they did this for long thousands of years they developed a genetic mutation helping them to feel fun and pleasure when roaming around.
Well, most likely mutation happened to sedentary people of North, but when it happened it gave advantage to ones loving traveling longer distances, and finding more food, which in form of migratory animals tends to move a lot. Same way as mutation for digesting starches had happened before development of agriculture, or lactose persistent before dairy industry. The beneficial mutations to help people make the best of existing environment.
Just keep in mind that it is always accompanied by feeling of pleasure. Mutation of eating starches came with feeling of joy of eating starches, also milk is tasty, so there is no reason to doubt that traveling can’t give us pleasure too, if it is a beneficial mutation. I’m sure many of us love traveling, seeing new things, and going for long walks in forests or mountain tracks, even though it is exhausting and tiring, with no bigger purpose but just to have a look around and be active. Some sort of undescribed pleasure and satisfaction, but it is a real feeling.

Anyway ANE became nomadic masters with love of traveling. From ancient history we have learned that ANE traveled far and wide. They went east to America as hunter gatherers and became American Natives. They went west to Scandinavia as hunter-gatherers too. Recently it has turned that ANE Mal’ta boy had Y haplogroupe R*, possibly ancestor or at least a cousin to R1a and R1b people. It is easy to assume and be almost certain that R1a people had overwhelming ANE admixture.
Once R1 tribes became herders and successful farmers in Bronze Age, had built up their numbers, and became what we know as Indo-Europeans, they moved once again in all directions. Why? Because they loved moving around and traveling, they have the joy of roaming gene. They went to Tibet, South to India and Middle East as Indo-Iranians. Some even ventured into Africa. They also went west to Europe again, some as Corded Ware culture, others as Celtic tribes. This time they settled all over Europe giving it IE language.

Keep in mind that there were always more populous nations than nomads from North. Farmers from China or India had vast advantage in numbers and could conquer the whole world, but they never did. I guess, they must have loved to be always at home, and being away they were home sick. Same thing in Europe, neither its Hunter-Gatherers or Neolithic Farmers ventured outside Europe to conquered the world, or at least roam around a bit for fun.

Well, after Bronze Age invasion of nomadic travelers of ANE kind (R1a and R1B peoples), Europe wasn’t the same anymore. Greeks ventured into Asia with Alexander. Romans spread around half of known world, then Germanics and Slavs had to travel a bit too, followed by another wave of ANE people of Central Asia, like Huns, Tatars, Mongols and Turks. We shouldn’t even mention how rich in ANE Vikings have loved to travel places, faraway places.

I’m not sure how relevant all the English, Spanish, Dutch empires are in terms of traveling or Russian expansion east, but they are all ANE people. And I bet ANE is the most widespread admixture around the planet.

Before the ANE expansion, all civilizations or so called empires where like sizable countries. ANE people showed the world how real empire should look like.
All for the love of traveling and roaming.

PS. Arabs don’t have ANE, but being nomads, therefore having a roaming gene, they had one of biggest empires too.


The Indo-Europeans with their cattle industry might have been the first Cowboys. ANE is relatively strong in Scotland, perhaps the cold rainy highlands are not attractive for neither hunters nor farmers. R1b people ended up in North-America where mostly irish emigrants controlled the cow industry. R1a Russia conquered half of Asia as you said, although I'm not aware of russian cattle industry. Maybe it is because R1a dewlled partially in the northernly forests.

On the other hand, the Chinese for instance are known for their long-term orientation and patience. China was once a great innovative culture, yet slowly fell asleep for more than 1000 years with a slow bureaucratic government. The country always remained like a monolithic block and its borders extended extremely slowly, which is compatible with patience, long-term orientation and strict land ownership. What does not qute fit to this picture though is the fact that many chinese live abroad, but maybe that is a false impression due to their large number in general, I dont know.

I see it like this: hunting requires land but the high mobility requirement makes it impossible to own the land. Farming is the opposite where land must be secured/owned for cultivation, but the amount of land to be owned is restricted because it was not possible to cultivate larger areas in the past. Cattle-breeding combines both, large lands with loose or mobile ownership, because the land needs no cultivation, just exploitation. Where Farming is prone to land grabbing, cattle-breeding is prone to aggressive land grabbing.



Can anyone find traveling statistics per country per capita?

Perhaps it would be useful to combine it with emigration statistics because else we would mostly see only the economic purchasing power I guess.

LeBrok
04-01-14, 22:05
The Indo-Europeans with their cattle industry might have been the first Cowboys. ANE is relatively strong in Scotland, perhaps the cold rainy highlands are not attractive for neither hunters nor farmers. R1b people ended up in North-America where mostly irish emigrants controlled the cow industry. R1a Russia conquered half of Asia as you said, although I'm not aware of russian cattle industry. Maybe it is because R1a dewlled partially in the northernly forests.Russians are mostly related to Slavic farmers, therefore small farms and more milk drinkers than beef eaters. After shaking off Mongol dominance they've started great expansion that only stopped recently. Being situated closer to east they aquired more ANE than other Slavs.
But you're up to something with herders. I think most ANE character and spread was more related to extensive herding than extensive farming. Dry steppes of Asia were always more suited for huge herding communities. Their roaming instinct was not curtailed by sedentary farming influence to much. Once they've domesticated horses and cows they could roam farther and farther and still have supply of good meet. Should we call it advanced hunter-gatherer?
Intrestingly R1a communities in the east Europe are more pig and chicken eaters and milk drinkers, and western R1b is about beef eating. Even in Americas where R1b had more influence the beef stake is valued more than good pork cutlet. Also drinking milk and eating yogurts is less popular there than in Poland or Germany.


On the other hand, the Chinese for instance are known for their long-term orientation and patience. China was once a great innovative culture, yet slowly fell asleep for more than 1000 years with a slow bureaucratic government. The country always remained like a monolithic block and its borders extended extremely slowly, which is compatible with patience, long-term orientation and strict land ownership. What does not qute fit to this picture though is the fact that many chinese live abroad, but maybe that is a false impression due to their large number in general, I dont know.
I think it is about the numbers, same in India and their communities abroad. You can find will to travel in any populations on this planet, however for ANE people this desire was magnified few fold. Or the difference is that agriculturalists don't mind traveling if they have to for economic gains or escape bad situation, or some have heightened sense of adventure. Where for ANE guys traveling is fun and joy, I assume. And of course we have to look at this a statistical function, because I'm sure that many ANE "mutants" preferred to stick around in one place.


I see it like this: hunting requires land but the high mobility requirement makes it impossible to own the land. Farming is the opposite where land must be secured/owned for cultivation, but the amount of land to be owned is restricted because it was not possible to cultivate larger areas in the past. Cattle-breeding combines both, large lands with loose or mobile ownership, because the land needs no cultivation, just exploitation.Where Farming is prone to land grabbing, cattle-breeding is prone to aggressive land grabbing. Right on !, they love roaming and by nature of herding were more aggressive than farmers. Combination of evolutionary traits behind huge ANE expansion.
I'm sure they were fighting themselves constantly in Central Asia for best pastures. Perfect exercises to develop war technology and best tactics. No wonder nobody could stop these bronze age warriors, or Mongols.



Perhaps it would be useful to combine it with emigration statistics because else we would mostly see only the economic purchasing power I guess. Well, emigration is mostly about money or escaping persecution. I was thinking about # of departing (leaving own country) tourists, and per capita to eliminate discrepancies of demographics between China and Sweden for example. Just traveling for pleasure only, from joy of roaming. I know it is not perfect because in richer countries people have money to travel more abroad. But at least it should be more even for Europe.
I wonder how much Sardinians fravel with their low ANE in comparison to Ireland with high ANE? Granted that gene for joy of roaming will be located on ANE admixture only.

nordicquarreler
06-01-14, 00:55
Polynesians trump all populations in terms of global travel. Now looks like there is solid DNA evidence they even made it to the coast of South America.

Alan
06-01-14, 10:43
PS. Arabs don’t have ANE, but being nomads,

Arabs do have ANE in form of "West Asian" but other Middle Easterners have more of course (peaks in North Caucasus). "West Asian" was a essential part of ANE people.

ElHorsto
06-01-14, 11:17
Arabs do have ANE in form of "West Asian" but other Middle Easterners have more of course (peaks in North Caucasus). "West Asian" was a essential part of ANE people.

The Mal'ta sample unofficially showed strong links to populations with heavy 'Gedrosian_K12b' admixture. In Europe it is strongest in the north-west again, right where ANE is strong too. Interestingly, Gedrosian is not detected in north-east europeans, where ANE is even slightly stronger, thus I guess particular EFF blocks contribute something to the Gedrosian component. Or it is because '0%' in Admixture does not really mean 0%.

bicicleur
06-01-14, 14:33
Polynesians trump all populations in terms of global travel. Now looks like there is solid DNA evidence they even made it to the coast of South America.

The link might be just mtDNA B wich is present with both Native Indians and Polynesians. There is no solid proof Polynesians got to South America, but they might.

Here is a map how their ancestors spread :

6189

Alan
06-01-14, 15:39
The Mal'ta sample unofficially showed strong links to populations with heavy 'Gedrosian_K12b' admixture. In Europe it is strongest in the north-west again, right where ANE is strong too. Interestingly, Gedrosian is not detected in north-east europeans, where ANE is even slightly stronger, thus I guess particular EFF blocks contribute something to the Gedrosian component. Or it is because '0%' in Admixture does not really mean 0%.


Sounds possible but than the "European" of the early Mal'ta paper is beyond 40% in some North Caucasians while in no other admixture calculator they ever scored anything close to 40% North European. So it pretty much seems like almost half of it is actually Caucasus which got eaten up by "European" like in this paper the light green component eats up Gedrosia.