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mihaitzateo
13-01-14, 21:57
Was just curious,anyone heard of a study or so who tells of a relation between Scythians and Cossacks?
As a link,both were in same area,both are very good at riding horses.

LeBrok
13-01-14, 22:59
Was just curious,anyone heard of a study or so who tells of a relation between Scythians and Cossacks?
As a link,both were in same area,both are very good at riding horses.
Scythians were a conglomeration of various tribes, (later referred also as Huns?) connected by common culture of herding, riding horses, short composite bow as primary weapon, living in steppes from Ukraine to Mongolia. Sometimes they were dominated by Eastern European tribes, IE Scythians(?), sometimes by Mongolian and Turkic from 700 to 1400 CE, then recently by IEs again, Russians.
Cossacks are one of descendents of these Huns from Steppes with strong Turkic influence in last thousand years.

toyomotor
14-01-14, 02:40
Scythians were a conglomeration of various tribes, (later referred also as Huns?) connected by common culture of herding, riding horses, short composite bow as primary weapon, living in steppes from Ukraine to Mongolia. Sometimes they were dominated by Eastern European tribes, IE Scythians(?), sometimes by Mongolian and Turkic from 700 to 1400 CE, then recently by IEs again, Russians.
Cossacks are one of descendents of these Huns from Steppes with strong Turkic influence in last thousand years. I agree. Notably, the Cumans, a red haired green eyed Caucasian tribe from east of the Yellow River in China fought on the side of some Russian princes against the Mongols, as did the Kipchaks, before eventually joining the Mongols to form The Golden Horde.

Alan
14-01-14, 06:02
Scythians were a conglomeration of various tribes, (later referred also as Huns?) connected by common culture of herding, riding horses, short composite bow as primary weapon, living in steppes from Ukraine to Mongolia. Sometimes they were dominated by Eastern European tribes, IE Scythians(?), sometimes by Mongolian and Turkic from 700 to 1400 CE, then recently by IEs again, Russians.
Cossacks are one of descendents of these Huns from Steppes with strong Turkic influence in last thousand years.

Scythians and most of the tribal groups inside of Scythia (like Sogdians, Massagaeta, Dahae) were an Iranian speaking tribs who stayed in the Steppes. They border Germanic tribes and Balto_Slavs in the West, Uralic tribes in the North and Proto Turkic and Proto Mongolian tribes in the East. In Central Asia the Scythians went into some kind of alliance with Proto Mongolian tribes which was the beginning of the Huns. "Western or often also reffered to as "White Huns" (the Huns wo raided Europe) were predominantly of Scythian origin but with strong Germanic element. Atilla likely had some Germanic ancestry too. Later when the Huns disappeared the Turkic tribes migrated towards Central Asia and took them over, while Balto_Slavs took over the remnants in Eastern Europe.

6195

Nobody1
14-01-14, 11:15
Scythians and most of the tribal groups inside of Scythia (like Sogdians, Massagaeta, Dahae) were an Iranian speaking tribs who stayed in the Steppes. They border Germanic tribes in the West, Uralic tribes in the North and Proto Turkic and Proto Mongolian tribes in the East. In Central Asia the Scythians went into some kind of alliance with Proto Mongolian tribes which was the beginning of the Huns. "Western or often also reffered to as "White Huns" (the Huns wo raided Europe) were predominantly of Scythian origin but with strong Germanic element. Atilla likely had some Germanic ancestry too. Later when the Huns disappeared the Turkic tribes migrated towards Central Asia and took them over, while Balto_Slavs took over the remnants in Eastern Europe.

I would disagree with the Hunnic corpus being predominantly Scythian (i.e. Indo-European/Caucasoid);
The Germanic vassals of the Huns ultimately rebelled and overthrew them (Nedao/Bassianae) after Attila's death; And if we look at Germanic (Gepidae/Heruli/Ostrogothic) cemeteries in that post-era there are a decent amount of Mongoloid skulls and skulls with such features found;

Department of Anthropology - Hungarian Natural History Museum, Budapest - (2000)
http://www2.sci.u-szeged.hu/ABS/Acta%20HP/44-87.pdf

Undoubtably these burials are Huns - subjugated/captured remnants of the by now independent Germanic vassals; Based on that i derive the Huns to be most prob. a Turkic/Mongoloid people - and if they subjugated Scythians further east (i.e. before emerging at the Don river) than that must have been just a part of the Scythians and def. not the entire branch of them;

Im also not sure as to how many Scythians were still roaming the eastern steppes in 3rd/4th cen AD;
Given that there was already a large exodus of Scythians (coppled to the Cimmerians) more than a thousand years earlier (SargonII/Nineveh) into the South Caucasus and Iranian-plateau plus extending to the Saka kingdom in Indus-valley further later;

I do agree that Cumans/Kipchaks pos. also Bulgars and Avars are most prob. Indo-Europeans (Scythian/Sarmatian remnants) that were subjugated and Turkofied in the process further east (Caspian/Volga area) - but at a much later time;

Alan
14-01-14, 16:02
I would disagree with the Hunnic corpus being predominantly Scythian (i.e. Indo-European/Caucasoid);
The Germanic vassals of the Huns ultimately rebelled and overthrew them (Nedao/Bassianae) after Attila's death; And if we look at Germanic (Gepidae/Heruli/Ostrogothic) cemeteries in that post-era there are a decent amount of Mongoloid skulls and skulls with such features found;

Department of Anthropology - Hungarian Natural History Museum, Budapest - (2000)
http://www2.sci.u-szeged.hu/ABS/Acta%20HP/44-87.pdf

Undoubtably these burials are Huns - subjugated/captured remnants of the by now independent Germanic vassals; Based on that i derive the Huns to be most prob. a Turkic/Mongoloid people - and if they subjugated Scythians further east (i.e. before emerging at the Don river) than that must have been just a part of the Scythians and def. not the entire branch of them;

Im also not sure as to how many Scythians were still roaming the eastern steppes in 3rd/4th cen AD;
Given that there was already a large exodus of Scythians (coppled to the Cimmerians) more than a thousand years earlier (SargonII/Nineveh) into the South Caucasus and Iranian-plateau plus extending to the Saka kingdom in Indus-valley further later;

I do agree that Cumans/Kipchaks pos. also Bulgars and Avars are most prob. Indo-Europeans (Scythian/Sarmatian remnants) that were subjugated and Turkofied in the process further east (Caspian/Volga area) - but at a much later time;


The explanation for this is above Scythians got into alliance with Mongolian tribes. And the White Huns had already absorbed and mixed immensely with the Asian Huns. At the and of the day it was a fusion which created a new people "the Huns". In European standards they had allot of Asian features but yet I doubt that the White Huns were not predominantly Caucasian. Asian Huns must have been pred. Mongolian looking with strong Caucasian admixture inherited from the White Huns. And White Huns must have been pred. Caucasian with strong Mongolian admixture.

Look at this Coin depiction of Atilla the Hun.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6e/Atilla_fl%C3%A9au_de_dieu.jpg/467px-Atilla_fl%C3%A9au_de_dieu.jpghttp://www.heritage-history.com/books/horne/soldiers/zpage059.gif


Large and longheaded. I have yet to see a Turkic person from Central Asia or Mongol from East Asia with such prominent features (Chin, Nose and headshape) very atypical for Central Asian Turkic or Mongolians. Hi physical features go into the Iranian facial type. In fact I know a Russian from Samara (North of the Caspian) who has very similar headshape.
Imo this depiction of Atilla is very Caucasian.

Nobody1
14-01-14, 17:13
The explanation for this is above Scythians got into alliance with Mongolian tribes. And the White Huns had already absorbed and mixed immensely with the Asian Huns. At the and of the day it was a fusion which created a new people "the Huns". In European standards they had allot of Asian features but yet I doubt that the White Huns were not predominantly Caucasian. Asian Huns must have been pred. Mongolian looking with strong Caucasian admixture inherited from the White Huns. And White Huns must have been pred. Caucasian with strong Mongolian admixture.

Look at this Coin depiction of Atilla the Hun.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6e/Atilla_fl%C3%A9au_de_dieu.jpg/467px-Atilla_fl%C3%A9au_de_dieu.jpghttp://www.heritage-history.com/books/horne/soldiers/zpage059.gif


Large and longheaded. I have yet to see a Turkic person from Central Asia or Mongol from East Asia with such prominent features (Chin, Nose and headshape) very atypical for Central Asian Turkic or Mongolians. Hi physical features go into the Iranian facial type. In fact I know a Russian from Samara (North of the Caspian) who has very similar headshape.
Imo this depiction of Atilla is very Caucasian.

Yes;
But that Coin depiction stems from the Renaissance-era ~1000 years after Attila lived and supposedly to depict him with demonic features (hence the horns); Jordanes (XXXV) describes him as very Mongoloid/Altaic; But also Jordanes lived a good century after Attila; But by the time of Attila most Sarmatian and Germanic tribes were already vassals to the Huns in the manner as described by their first emergence on the Don with the Alani (Tanaitae) in Ammianus XXXI/III;

These designations of color (White-Huns) are more related to Geography than to Anthropology;

Donald A. MacKenzie - Myths of Pre-Columbian America (1923)
In India the north is white and the south, being Yama's gate and Yama the god of death, is coloured black. Southern India is no darker than the north. The Chinese coloured their north black, their south red, their east green or blue, and their west white. In Gaelic the north is black and the south white, the east purple-red and the west dun or pale.

The Chinese had their West as White; And the Mongols entitled their western-most Horde as the White Horde;

Gurka atla
22-03-14, 13:09
I agree. Notably, the Cumans, a red haired green eyed Caucasian tribe from east of the Yellow River in China fought on the side of some Russian princes against the Mongols, as did the Kipchaks, before eventually joining the Mongols to form The Golden Horde.


NO


1. They were blonde not red hair

2. They were more Mongoloid than Caucasian

3. It was actually Kipchaks-Cuman union that they started being called blonde

MOESAN
23-03-14, 20:56
the history of the turkic tribes seem a permanent drift from almost pure (diverse) 'mongolid' people to very mixted 'mongolid-caucasian' groups as they were getting westwards with time, the result in West being the today anatolian Turcs, caucasian Turcs and Turcomans (Turkmen) where the 'mongolid' element is almost absent or light - the north east central asian population knew the I-An colonization where 'caucasian' began to scrape some slight 'mongoloid' traits on their going eastwards: the turkic expansion, on the opposite side, achieved the process of mixture... Only local details vary, I think, the result being the same: a kind of gradiant (not completely level)

Gurka atla
25-03-14, 18:52
the history of the turkic tribes seem a permanent drift from almost pure (diverse) 'mongolid' people to very mixted 'mongolid-caucasian' groups as they were getting westwards with time, the result in West being the today anatolian Turcs, caucasian Turcs and Turcomans (Turkmen) where the 'mongolid' element is almost absent or light - the north east central asian population knew the I-An colonization where 'caucasian' began to scrape some slight 'mongoloid' traits on their going eastwards: the turkic expansion, on the opposite side, achieved the process of mixture... Only local details vary, I think, the result being the same: a kind of gradiant (not completely level)

That's crazily exaggerated

Turkomen 13 - 58% Mongoloid

Azeris 5 - 29% Mongoloid

Anatolian Turks 2.5 - 18.5% Mongoloid