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Vratyas
19-01-14, 09:53
From ancient DNA results it seems as though northern europeans were tan-skinned as late as the mesolithic. They didnt need light skin because their diet was rich in vitamin D. They belonged almost exclusively to Hg I. Many of them had blue eyes but not red or blond hair. They might have inherited blue eyes from neanderthals. We know that neanderthals hunted in low-light conditions and light eyes would have improved their vision in the dark.

The R1a people were in terms of autosomal composition mostly western hunter gatherers with some Karitiana-like admixture. During the last ice age they took refuge in the Ukraine where they developed several shades of blond hair as a result of sexual selection. They also developed pale skin either to produce more vitamin D or also as a result of sexual selection.

The R1b people coming from Mesopotamia/anatolia/gedrosia were among the first farmers and developed pale skin and red hair in response to a shift in diet to vitamin D poor foods. They entered the steppes via the Caucasus and took wives from the R1a people already living there. This explains the high incedence of blue eyes and blonde hair among R1b people today. They were excellent metal workers. Probably the best in the world at that time.


R1a and R1b propogated pale skin into europe in the neolithic. Almost all of the blue eyes in europe today come from north of the black sea though this is probably not where it originated as 8000 year old western hunter gatherers already had blue eyes.

bicicleur
19-01-14, 10:30
During the last ice age they took refuge in the Ukraine

I don't think so, they arrived 15000 years ago, i e after the ice age.

http://archaeology.about.com/od/mterms/g/mezhirich.htm

Like other Dnepr River basin mammoth bone settlements, Mezhirich was first thought to have been occupied between 18,000 and 12,000 years ago, based on early radiocarbon dates. More recent ccelerator Mass Spectrometry (AMS) (http://archaeology.about.com/od/amthroughanterms/g/ams_radiocarbon.htm) radiocarbon dates suggest a shorter chronology for all mammoth bone settlements, between 15,000 and 14,000 years ago.

bicicleur
19-01-14, 10:38
They were excellent metal workers. Probably the best in the world at that time.



what makes you think so ?

first copper smelting was in the Balkans , 7500 years ago , that was J2b and some G2a
the chiefs on the Pontic steppe got copper artefacts through trade with Cucuteni-Tripolye.
after the collapse of Cucuteni-Tripolye copper mining and copper working was in the Maykop, mainly G2a.

I think though trade between Maykop and Mesopotamia was in the hands of R1b

Maciamo
19-01-14, 11:13
Good summary, Vratyas. I basically agree with everything you wrote.

Bicicleur also made a very good point with the Mezhirich site as potentially marking the arrival of R1a mammoth-hunting tribes from Siberia to south-western Russia.

Maciamo
19-01-14, 11:26
what makes you think so ?

first copper smelting was in the Balkans , 7500 years ago , that was J2b and some G2a
the chiefs on the Pontic steppe got copper artefacts through trade with Cucuteni-Tripolye.
after the collapse of Cucuteni-Tripolye copper mining and copper working was in the Maykop, mainly G2a.

I think though trade between Maykop and Mesopotamia was in the hands of R1b

It is true that early metallurgy (copper, gold, silver) developed first in the Balkans and central Anatolia, most probably with G2a, J2 and E1b1b people. But from the Bronze Age R1a and R1b people became the leaders in metal working technologies. What is particularly amazing among steppe people is not that they developed bronze working early (there is now evidence (http://antiquity.ac.uk/ant/087/ant0871030.htm) that the first bronzes might have been made in the Balkans too), but that most of the population seems to have been involved one way or another in bronze working. The so-called 'country of towns' of the Sintashta culture contrasted sharply with contemporaneous West Asian and South Asian civilizations in that every single house showed signs of bronze working. For the early Indo-Europeans metallurgy wasn't the work of a small specialised guild, but a way of life in itself.

Another difference is that steppe people had a far more militaristic use of bronze that Near Eastern societies. The contrast is striking when we compare bronze objects from the Maykop culture, in the Northwest Caucasus, with those of the contemporaneous Kura-Araxes culture, in the South Caucasus and eastern Anatolia. While most Kura-Araxes bronzes were functional (e.g. agricultural) and luxury objects, those from Maykop are overwhelmingly weapons (including the world's earliest swords).

The extreme militarism of steppe Indo-Europeans certainly explains how they managed to conquer such vast territories so quickly, and defeated civilizations that were seemingly more advanced in many other respects.

Vratyas
19-01-14, 11:47
It is true that early metallurgy (copper, gold, silver) developed first in the Balkans and central Anatolia, most probably with G2a, J2 and E1b1b people. But from the Bronze Age R1a and R1b people became the leaders in metal working technologies. What is particularly amazing among steppe people is not that they developed bronze working early (there is now evidence that the first bronzes might have been made in the Balkans too), but that most of the population seems to have been involved one way or another in bronze working. The so-called 'country of towns' of the Sintashta culture contrasted sharply with contemporaneous West Asian and South Asian civilizations in that every single house showed signs of bronze working. For the early Indo-Europeans metallurgy wasn't the work of a small specialised guild, but a way of life in itself.

Another difference is that steppe people had a far more militaristic use of bronze that Near Eastern societies. The contrast is striking when we compare bronze objects from the Maykop culture, in the Northwest Caucasus, with those of the contemporaneous Kura-Araxes culture, in the South Caucasus and eastern Anatolia. While most Kura-Araxes bronzes were functional (e.g. agricultural) and luxury objects, those from Maykop are overwhelmingly weapons (including the world's earliest swords).

The extreme militarism of steppe Indo-Europeans certainly explains how they managed to conquer such vast territories so quickly, and defeated civilizations that were seemingly more advanced in many other respects.

Thank you for the reply. So it seems then that R1a men arrived in the ukraine right after the LGM. What happened to the western hunter gatherer males? Did the R1a's kill them?

bicicleur
19-01-14, 11:59
It is true that early metallurgy (copper, gold, silver) developed first in the Balkans and central Anatolia, most probably with G2a, J2 and E1b1b people. But from the Bronze Age R1a and R1b people became the leaders in metal working technologies. What is particularly amazing among steppe people is not that they developed bronze working early (there is now evidence (http://antiquity.ac.uk/ant/087/ant0871030.htm) that the first bronzes might have been made in the Balkans too), but that most of the population seems to have been involved one way or another in bronze working. The so-called 'country of towns' of the Sintashta culture contrasted sharply with contemporaneous West Asian and South Asian civilizations in that every single house showed signs of bronze working. For the early Indo-Europeans metallurgy wasn't the work of a small specialised guild, but a way of life in itself.

Another difference is that steppe people had a far more militaristic use of bronze that Near Eastern societies. The contrast is striking when we compare bronze objects from the Maykop culture, in the Northwest Caucasus, with those of the contemporaneous Kura-Araxes culture, in the South Caucasus and eastern Anatolia. While most Kura-Araxes bronzes were functional (e.g. agricultural) and luxury objects, those from Maykop are overwhelmingly weapons (including the world's earliest swords).

The extreme militarism of steppe Indo-Europeans certainly explains how they managed to conquer such vast territories so quickly, and defeated civilizations that were seemingly more advanced in many other respects.

It seems to me Sintashta took militarism to another level.
I think R1a exploited the copper mines in the Sintashta area but the Sintashta area was territory of other people.
R1a had to defend themselves and the mines and working places from raids by the natives.
The natives (I think N1c1) also learned copper and bronze working.
When the native N1c1 invented a better casting technique, they made holow socketed spearheads which allowed better hafting on the shaft.
Their superior armory caused the Seima-Turbino expansion which is now dated to aprox 2000 BC
From then on militarism and warior culture spread all over Siberia

bicicleur
19-01-14, 12:13
Thank you for the reply. So it seems then that R1a men arrived in the ukraine right after the LGM. What happened to the western hunter gatherer males? Did the R1a's kill them?

when R1a arrived 15000 years ago, they were mammoth hunters
I think Southern Russia and the Ukraine where largely uninhabited when they arrived

when the mammoths got extinct, R1a had to leave the forest zone to I2a1b (I think) hunter/gatherers and they stayed in the rivervalleys on the Pontic steppe
they survived on a diet of 50 % fish from the rivers and 50 % meat, mainly horse meat

I wonder how and when R1b could infiltrate into the Pontic steppe
From what we know about IE language it must have been before the invention of the wheel

Maciamo
19-01-14, 12:49
Thank you for the reply. So it seems then that R1a men arrived in the ukraine right after the LGM. What happened to the western hunter gatherer males? Did the R1a's kill them?

I suppose you mean the eastern hunter gatherer males. They were not necessarily killed. I doubt that hunter-gathering societies had the power to wage wars resulting in a lot of casualties. Most conflicts between tribes were merely territorial skirmishes that involved a lot of show and some injuries, but rarely mass killings.

One feature of hunter-gathering societies is that they were very mobile, especially in regions where there were seasonal migrations of animals.

The tribes living in the Pontic-Caspian steppes around the LGM would probably have moved into Central Europe after the ice sheets receded, leaving a vacuum for Siberian R1a tribes to move in. It is more likely that an actual "invasion" of R1a hunters, who lived in tribes of a few dozen people at most (extended families). Back then a "war" would have been of an order of scale of ten men against ten men, who would have fought with wood-and-silex spears or primitive arrows (like some Amazonian tribes today). This is why the first true wars only started in the metal age, especially from the Bronze Age, since copper is too soft to make large axes or any sword blades.

Maciamo
19-01-14, 12:56
It seems to me Sintashta took militarism to another level.
I think R1a exploited the copper mines in the Sintashta area but the Sintashta area was territory of other people.
R1a had to defend themselves and the mines and working places from raids by the natives.
The natives (I think N1c1) also learned copper and bronze working.
When the native N1c1 invented a better casting technique, they made holow socketed spearheads which allowed better hafting on the shaft.
Their superior armory caused the Seima-Turbino expansion which is now dated to aprox 2000 BC
From then on militarism and warior culture spread all over Siberia

Interesting theory. But if they Seima-Turbino expansion was led by N1c1 people, why is it that southern Russia and Ukraine have hardly any N1c1 today ? And how did Late Bronze Age Scythian cultures in Siberia, following immediately the Seima-Turbino expansion, have yielded essentially R1a Y-DNA ?

Besides the Seima-Turbino phenomenon was linked to the Srubna (aka Timber-grave) culture in the steppes, which was the natural successor of the Catacomb culture, and probably the culture from which the Cimmerians descended.

Maciamo
19-01-14, 13:00
when R1a arrived 15000 years ago, they were mammoth hunters
I think Southern Russia and the Ukraine where largely uninhabited when they arrived

when the mammoths got extinct, R1a had to leave the forest zone to I2a1b (I think) hunter/gatherers and they stayed in the rivervalleys on the Pontic steppe
they survived on a diet of 50 % fish from the rivers and 50 % meat, mainly horse meat

I wonder how and when R1b could infiltrate into the Pontic steppe
From what we know about IE language it must have been before the invention of the wheel

My understanding is that R1a tribes remained in the forest-steppe (richer in game for hunting), while R1b cattle herders settled the open steppe (ideal for cattle grazing) in the Neolithic.

I2a people would have moved to Central Europe, mainly around the Carpathians and Poland, after the LGM.

Vratyas
19-01-14, 13:42
I suppose you mean the eastern hunter gatherer males. They were not necessarily killed. I doubt that hunter-gathering societies had the power to wage wars resulting in a lot of casualties. Most conflicts between tribes were merely territorial skirmishes that involved a lot of show and some injuries, but rarely mass killings.

One feature of hunter-gathering societies is that they were very mobile, especially in regions where there were seasonal migrations of animals.

The tribes living in the Pontic-Caspian steppes around the LGM would probably have moved into Central Europe after the ice sheets receded, leaving a vacuum for Siberian R1a tribes to move in. It is more likely that an actual "invasion" of R1a hunters, who lived in tribes of a few dozen people at most (extended families). Back then a "war" would have been of an order of scale of ten men against ten men, who would have fought with wood-and-silex spears or primitive arrows (like some Amazonian tribes today). This is why the first true wars only started in the metal age, especially from the Bronze Age, since copper is too soft to make large axes or any sword blades.

What puzzles me is that indo-europeans are europoid ( for the most part ) but they belong to mongoloid paternal lines. How did this come about ?

bicicleur
19-01-14, 13:46
My understanding is that R1b tribes remained in the forest-steppe (richer in game for hunting), while R1b cattle herders settled the open steppe (ideal for cattle grazing) in the Neolithic.

I2a people would have moved to Central Europe, mainly around the Carpathians and Poland, after the LGM.

yes, I wonder, R1b - M73 it doesn't make sense that they came from Anatolia
where R1b - M73 also mammoth hunters who stayed in the forests after mammoth extinction?

bicicleur
19-01-14, 13:55
Interesting theory. But if they Seima-Turbino expansion was led by N1c1 people, why is it that southern Russia and Ukraine have hardly any N1c1 today ? And how did Late Bronze Age Scythian cultures in Siberia, following immediately the Seima-Turbino expansion, have yielded essentially R1a Y-DNA ?

Besides the Seima-Turbino phenomenon was linked to the Srubna (aka Timber-grave) culture in the steppes, which was the natural successor of the Catacomb culture, and probably the culture from which the Cimmerians descended.

I must admit, I don't know much about Seima-Turbino.
Can you direct me to some info on the subject?
I read somewhere hollow socketed spearheads were forged (a socket for good hafting on the shaft)
Soon after these hollow socketed spearheads were casted, and it gave the people with this technique a tremendous military advance.

Indeed, N1c1 did not come to steppes, they made a more northernly expansion.
If N1c1 had this advantage, how were they stopped on the steppes ?
Maybe they didn't have horses or war charriots?
The spear would have been a lance, for footsoldiers?

Wilhelm
19-01-14, 14:59
Why the indoeuropeans when we know that EEF were light skinned..

Vratyas
19-01-14, 16:18
Why the indoeuropeans when we know that EEF were light skinned.. I cant link to an image because i dont have ten posts yet but do a google search for skin color distribution and you will see that generally the higher the EEF component the darker the skin in europeans.

Aberdeen
19-01-14, 16:21
My understanding is that R1b tribes remained in the forest-steppe (richer in game for hunting), while R1b cattle herders settled the open steppe (ideal for cattle grazing) in the Neolithic.

I2a people would have moved to Central Europe, mainly around the Carpathians and Poland, after the LGM.

I assume you meant to say that the R1a tribes remained in the forest-steppe while R1b cattle herders settled the open steppe in the Neolithic.

I'm not seeing a lot of evidence that R1b folk were on the steppes, in terms of modern DNA evidence. Although I know you have an explanation for that, I still wonder about it. And it seems to me that J2 must have been a fairly significant par of the IE expansion. I know you've said J2 was probably present, but as a minor player. But how did J2 get there? As part of Maykop?

Nobody1
19-01-14, 17:30
I cant link to an image because i dont have ten posts yet but do a google search for skin color distribution and you will see that generally the higher the EEF component the darker the skin in europeans.

Absolutely;
According to Lazaridis et al 2013 - the Neolithic-farmers (Stuttgart) were lighter-skinned than the Hunter-gatherers (Loschbour);
But the Indo-Europeans (when they finally sequence one) must be in-turn lighter-skinned than the Neolithic-farmers;

There is a clear North-South cline in Europe;

Lucotte et Yuasa 2011 + Norton2007
(http://www.academicjournals.org/article/article1379514057_Lucotte%20and%20Yuasa%20pdf.pdf) http://www.academicjournals.org/article/article1379514057_Lucotte%20and%20Yuasa%20pdf.pdf

Wilhelm
19-01-14, 19:18
I cant link to an image because i dont have ten posts yet but do a google search for skin color distribution and you will see that generally the higher the EEF component the darker the skin in europeans.
But for example Finns would have low levels of indoeuropean input (low levels of R1a+R1b) , as well as low levels of EEF....yet they are as light as their Scandianvian peers...

Vratyas
19-01-14, 20:25
But for example Finns would have low levels of indoeuropean input (low levels of R1a+R1b) , as well as low levels of EEF....yet they are as light as their Scandianvian peers...

The centre of gravity of haplogroup R1a in Finland is situated in Finnish-speaking Ostrobothnia (29 %) and to a lesser extent in Bothnia(21 %). Surprisingly, the percentage is lower (8 %) in Swedish-

speaking Ostrobothnia. A pigmentantion map by G. Gerland shows that northern Finns ( where R1a is almost 0%) do have yellow skin.

MOESAN
19-01-14, 20:51
What puzzles me is that indo-europeans are europoid ( for the most part ) but they belong to mongoloid paternal lines. How did this come about ?

it is uneasy to assign an autosomal global type to the bearers of a Y-HG + are you not confusing geographical "asian" with phenotypical "mongoloïd"? personally I don't believe either R1a or R1b were at first on the 'mongoloïd' type, but how to be sure concerning remote times?

Alan
19-01-14, 22:42
The R1a people were in terms of autosomal composition mostly western hunter gatherers with some Karitiana-like admixture. During the last ice age they took refuge in the Ukraine where they developed several shades of blond hair as a result of sexual selection. They also developed pale skin either to produce more vitamin D or also as a result of sexual selection.

The R1b people coming from Mesopotamia/anatolia/gedrosia were among the first farmers and developed pale skin and red hair in response to a shift in diet to vitamin D poor foods. They entered the steppes via the Caucasus and took wives from the R1a people already living there. This explains the high incedence of blue eyes and blonde hair among R1b people today. They were excellent metal workers. Probably the best in the world at that time.


R1a and R1b propogated pale skin into europe in the neolithic. Almost all of the blue eyes in europe today come from north of the black sea though this is probably not where it originated as 8000 year old western hunter gatherers already had blue eyes.

I doubt light skin was found anywhere in Europe prior to Neolithic and It shouldn't be connected to R1a or R1b exclusively while Ötzi, Stuttgart and other ancient European farmers of Haplogroup G2a* were the light skinned once

ElHorsto
19-01-14, 23:41
I cant link to an image because i dont have ten posts yet but do a google search for skin color distribution and you will see that generally the higher the EEF component the darker the skin in europeans.

I don't think that contemporary skin color, lactase tolerance, hair color and other particular traits correlate that much with autosomals, at least within europe. I think these traits are mostly driven quickly by evolutionary selection or drift, even more than haplogroups. This can be seen at south europeans who live in northern europe. Half of them become as pale as the natives.

Alan
19-01-14, 23:48
I cant link to an image because i dont have ten posts yet but do a google search for skin color distribution and you will see that generally the higher the EEF component the darker the skin in europeans.

Thats today because EEF is more common in South Europe but when EEF and H&G was evenly spread throughout Europe we observed that EEF were lighter skinned. Also modern North Europeans have considerable EEF.

LeBrok
20-01-14, 00:42
I don't think that contemporary skin color, lactase tolerance, hair color and other particular traits correlate that much with autosomals, at least within europe. I think these traits are mostly driven quickly by evolutionary selection or drift, even more than haplogroups. This can be seen at south europeans who live in northern europe. Half of them become as pale as the natives.
A very good point. If traits are very beneficial for survival they tend to spread very fast, regardless of tribes, haplogroups, and cultures, and quickly settle in areas where are needed the most. Surely for first thousand years after development of beneficial mutation it lingers around tribes of its conception, and going far back in time, we will be able to connect traits for very light skin or lactose persistence, and many other things, to certain tribes and their dominant haplogroups. However after thousands of years these traits have flown through all the tribes, drifted if you will, to the populations in geographical area where they were benefiting people the most. Therefor in this age and time we are unable to correlate these mutation to specific haplogroups. Unless these mutations happen on chromosome Y, or mtdna.

By standard of our knowledge, it is also plausible to say, that the very light skin mutation happened to first farmers going North off Black Sea, due to Northern location and farmer's diet lacking vitamin D. It could have been enhanced by any hunter-gatherer gene flow in this area into farmer's communities. The combination effect of light skinn farmers and light skin mutations of local HGs gave start to much lighter skin.

Vratyas
20-01-14, 02:39
I doubt light skin was found anywhere in Europe prior to Neolithic and It shouldn't be connected to R1a or R1b exclusively while Ötzi, Stuttgart and other ancient European farmers of Haplogroup G2a* were the light skinned once

Yes they were light skinned but im talking about burn-like-a-vampire pale skin

Tone
20-01-14, 06:07
Given the evidence so far for dark skinned Mesolithic Europeans, it seems likely that fair skin correlates with an adaptation by Neolithic farmers in order to process vitamin D from a cereal diet in a high latitude environment. At least so far. Blue eyes, on the other hand, seems to be a Mesolithic, indigenous hunter-gatherer trait based on recent finds.

What gives me pause is the correlation between blue eyes and blond hair. You can see this on Maciamo's maps. If the correlation is indeed true, then blond hair would have to be a hunter-gatherer trait along with light eyes. Right? Yet, fair skin is a farmer trait? Something doesn't sit quite right. Maybe the dark-skinned, blond haired/blue eyed natives became fair as they adopted farming? Who knows.

I'm really curious to see more evidence from the early Neolithic/late Mesolithic.

LeBrok
20-01-14, 06:51
Given the evidence so far for dark skinned Mesolithic Europeans, it seems likely that fair skin correlates with an adaptation by Neolithic farmers in order to process vitamin D from a cereal diet in a high latitude environment. At least so far. Blue eyes, on the other hand, seems to be a Mesolithic, indigenous hunter-gatherer trait based on recent finds.

What gives me pause is the correlation between blue eyes and blond hair. You can see this on Maciamo's maps. If the correlation is indeed true, then blond hair would have to be a hunter-gatherer trait along with light eyes. Right? Yet, fair skin is a farmer trait? Something doesn't sit quite right. Maybe the dark-skinned, blond haired/blue eyed natives became fair as they adopted farming? Who knows.

I'm really curious to see more evidence from the early Neolithic/late Mesolithic.
There are many genes responsible for skin, eye, and hair colour. It makes it complicated, but also fascinating.

Maciamo
20-01-14, 12:40
I assume you meant to say that the R1a tribes remained in the forest-steppe while R1b cattle herders settled the open steppe in the Neolithic.

Yes, typing mistake, sorry.



I'm not seeing a lot of evidence that R1b folk were on the steppes, in terms of modern DNA evidence. Although I know you have an explanation for that, I still wonder about it. And it seems to me that J2 must have been a fairly significant par of the IE expansion. I know you've said J2 was probably present, but as a minor player. But how did J2 get there? As part of Maykop?

Indo-European J2 would have been J2b2. It most likely came from the Balkans (alongside G2a3b1) to the steppe, then blended with R1a and R1b populations. I cannot be sure of that yet. J2b2 could also have come from eastern Anatolia together with R1b. What is certain is that J2b2 and G2a3b1 are minority lineages found in almost all R1a and R1b1b2 populations today, be it in Europe (from Scandinavia to Italy, and from Britain to Russia), Central Asia, Siberia or South Asia. Indian Brahmins belong mostly to R1a, with substantial minorities of J2b2 and G2a3b1. R1b-M269 has also been found among Himalayan Brahmins (Jammu, Nepal). However India is terribly undersampled at the moment and I wouldn't be surprised to find more R1b in the future.

Alan
20-01-14, 21:43
Given the evidence so far for dark skinned Mesolithic Europeans, it seems likely that fair skin correlates with an adaptation by Neolithic farmers in order to process vitamin D from a cereal diet in a high latitude environment. At least so far. Blue eyes, on the other hand, seems to be a Mesolithic, indigenous hunter-gatherer trait based on recent finds.

What gives me pause is the correlation between blue eyes and blond hair. You can see this on Maciamo's maps. If the correlation is indeed true, then blond hair would have to be a hunter-gatherer trait along with light eyes. Right? Yet, fair skin is a farmer trait? Something doesn't sit quite right. Maybe the dark-skinned, blond haired/blue eyed natives became fair as they adopted farming? Who knows.

I'm really curious to see more evidence from the early Neolithic/late Mesolithic.

Light eyes = better for hunting in the darkness.

Light skin = adaption to farming.

Angela
20-01-14, 23:44
All the Mesolithic hunter gatherers found so far, and Mal'ta, have been black haired, or at least dark brown haired. So was the LBK EEF.

BTW, does anyone have a link to an image for the Stuttgart skeleton, or cranium at least? We have them for Loschbour, and La Brana, but I haven't seen the one for the EEF woman. Of course, we have Oetzi but that's quite a bit later.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-R_BZZam1jlk/Urwk1uI31XI/AAAAAAAACVM/_LI7YcKEdZU/s1600/Lochsbourskull.png
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6hhq5AnV41qzix81o1_500.jpg

Also, both the samples above are apparently grouped as WHG in Lazaridis et al. Has anyone analyzed the skulls and found them to be similar?

Goga
21-01-14, 02:12
Another difference is that steppe people had a far more militaristic use of bronze that Near Eastern societies. The contrast is striking when we compare bronze objects from the Maykop culture, in the Northwest Caucasus, with those of the contemporaneous Kura-Araxes culture, in the South Caucasus and eastern Anatolia. While most Kura-Araxes bronzes were functional (e.g. agricultural) and luxury objects, those from Maykop are overwhelmingly weapons (including the world's earliest swords).Maykop folks were not really the steppe people and they looked different from the Yamna folks. Maykop folks looked much more like according to the paper below 'Southern Caucasoids of the Caucasus and Southwestern Central Asia', with other words like modernday Kurdic / 'West Iranic' (Caucaso-Gedrosia-like) people! So it might be possible that R1b picked Gedrosia component in the Maykop region from Maykop people, before they mixed with Yamna folks!
Analysis of Maikop crania (Kazarnitsky 2010) -> http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/06/analysis-of-maikop-crania-kazarnitsky.html

Greying Wanderer
24-01-14, 20:03
I'm wondering if Lazaridis' ANE component (Ancestral North Eurasian) may be descended from the mammoth steppe foragers (as distinct from the southern forest foragers). Some of them waited out the Ice Age around the Black Sea (and some maybe elsewhere). The ones around the Black Sea developed the Indo-European languages. Some but only some of these Indo-European speakers developed into the steppe culture but their military advantage meant they came to be dominant.

I'm also wondering if the reason the area around the Black Sea was so favored is if the lower sea level meant the light-blue area in this map was all wetlands i.e. lots of fish - like the Baltic later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Black-sea-hist.png

Ignoring whether there was a sudden deluge or a gradual one if the light-blue area in the map was high population density wetlands and they gradually or suddenly disappeared that provides pressure for people to either move or adapt a new method of food-getting.

LeBrok
24-01-14, 21:09
I'm wondering if Lazaridis' ANE component (Ancestral North Eurasian) may be descended from the mammoth steppe foragers (as distinct from the southern forest foragers). Some of them waited out the Ice Age around the Black Sea (and some maybe elsewhere). The ones around the Black Sea developed the Indo-European languages. Some but only some of these Indo-European speakers developed into the steppe culture but their military advantage meant they came to be dominant.

I'm also wondering if the reason the area around the Black Sea was so favored is if the lower sea level meant the light-blue area in this map was all wetlands i.e. lots of fish - like the Baltic later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Black-sea-hist.png

Ignoring whether there was a sudden deluge or a gradual one if the light-blue area in the map was high population density wetlands and they gradually or suddenly disappeared that provides pressure for people to either move or adapt a new method of food-getting.
Well, they didn't need to go far to find a dry land. When we look at known migrations from Steppes to Central Europe they mostly happened during severe cooling periods, making life very unbearable in dry Steppe. Warm and wet is good, cold and dry sucks big time for demographics and civilizations.

trutharian
12-02-14, 17:49
there is no such thing as white race white race is already proved to have descended from indian albinos haplogroup R thats why they fled from indias sun to europe there is no such thing as lightening skin for cold adaptation look at all the eskimos and other cold environment people they are all melanated even the polar bear when you shave his skin thats a fact all europeans were desperately trying to hide all the years and by te way there was no higher culture built by albinos

do not take it as offense or some kind of antiwhite post because i myself am a white european from italian and german ancestry but i can no longer support this lies white people in general spread all over the world

google realhistoryww and especially their article called "how race is made"

and also google the story of Sasha Ruseva a gypsy woman who has three albino children and the government wanted to take them away cause the eurocentrists thought she is a white girl and they kidnapped her because europeans deny they are indian albinos and think blue eyes and lack of pigment is natural when its a genetic defect google the blond and blue eyes gorilla snowflake and read something about health and behaviour problems of albino dobermans and also visit stewartsynopsis article called black genetic parent

trutharian
12-02-14, 18:05
I doubt light skin was found anywhere in Europe prior to Neolithic and It shouldn't be connected to R1a or R1b exclusively while Ötzi, Stuttgart and other ancient European farmers of Haplogroup G2a* were the light skinned once
YES you are right albinism is not limited to any haplogroup it is pread all over the world but the only haplogroup which started to breed exclusively amongst themselves exluding all contact with melanated natural humans was the indian haplogroup R which inbred to keep the albino genes intact thats where racism comes from thats a bulletproof fact which even me as an european of germano romance ancestry must accept... albinos stay albinos only when they keep breeding exclusively amonngst themselves but white skin is not a race it is a genetic defect and spread all over various phenotypes

trutharian
12-02-14, 18:13
even the original statues of my etruscan ancestors clearly show we were all brown skinned curly haired and far from anglosaxon white race propaganda there was never a highly civilisation built by anglosaxon albinos sorry just google "realhistoryww"

trutharian
12-02-14, 18:22
The R1b people coming from Mesopotamia/anatolia/gedrosia were among the first farmers and developed pale skin and red hair in response to a shift in diet to vitamin D poor foods.
No this is simply not true because all farmer cultures in mesopotamia are brwon skinned and this theory does not hold up because blue eyes have oculocutaneous albinism and problems to see in light as well as darkness
and as food goes this would also mean that the albino gorilla snowflake must have had eaten tons of grains so he became albino with blue eyes thats purely nonsense

google "stewartsynopsis black genetic parent" who debunked the cold adaptation and food caused light skin theories...

trutharian
12-02-14, 18:33
The idea of white people(indian albinos) being indigenous europe is laughable, they'd have burnt to death in the 8 months of winter when the rays reflect and burn them or during the summer when the sun doesnt go down.

Half the climate of Europe modern day europeans is only bearable with sunblock, sun tan lotions, special clothing, modern knowledge, modern medicine and chemotherapy and whites in north europe are still dropping like flies in major cities from sun cancer. 1 in 4 danish women, white danish women, get skin cancer but we are to believe that they were their in ancient times? Take away modern cancer treatment and 1 in 4 danish women die before they even reproduce. Not to mention all the other ones getting cancer from going outdoors without sunblock.

Whites come from the central asian plains or asian steppes an area near modern day kazakstan. They were able to survive there because it is basically a cold desert (also known as tundra). Where it doesn't snow a whole lot (or rain). Their skin only turned white around 5,500 years ago or 3,500 bc as a result of albino mutation in indians

The claim of whites getiing white skin from low uv cannot be taken seriously in light of eskimos, nennets and indigenous chilens from artic regions or near artic regions all of whom are dark or dark brown skinned. Further when you compare this to kazakstan which has high uv the claim cannot no longer be believed. Whites are clearly just an albinoid people like this who interbred with each other and moved to somewhere in central asia with consistently low uv.

LeBrok
12-02-14, 19:09
there is no such thing as white race white race is already proved to have descended from indian albinos haplogroup R thats why they fled from indias sun to europe there is no such thing as lightening skin for cold adaptation look at all the eskimos and other cold environment people they are all melanated even the polar bear when you shave his skin thats a fact all europeans were desperately trying to hide all the years and by te way there was no higher culture built by albinos

do not take it as offense or some kind of antiwhite post because i myself am a white european from italian and german ancestry but i can no longer support this lies white people in general spread all over the world

google realhistoryww and especially their article called "how race is made"

and also google the story of Sasha Ruseva a gypsy woman who has three albino children and the government wanted to take them away cause the eurocentrists thought she is a white girl and they kidnapped her because europeans deny they are indian albinos and think blue eyes and lack of pigment is natural when its a genetic defect google the blond and blue eyes gorilla snowflake and read something about health and behaviour problems of albino dobermans and also visit stewartsynopsis article called black genetic parent
Please learn the difference on genetic level between Albinism here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albinism, and white skin mutation of Europeans, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_skin_color. Once you learn that one is not related to another, you can come back and apologise to all the white people, or at least don't hate them so much.

trutharian
12-02-14, 19:30
firstly i know a lot about genetics, secondly as i said i am white myself so no need to apologyze, and to state that wikipedia is a valuable source for genetic studies is really not serious is it? white skin is for sure no adaptation to cold environment it is an albino mutation and the birth of the so called white race is caused by albinos in india which started to exclusively breed amongst themselves thats why they multiplied in such numbers and could keep their recessive traits it is 100 percent provable ! and some of them got little bit melanin by mixing with native europeans as they moved into europe because they searched an environment where they could survive with their recessive genes this is science not personal opinion or some kind of offensive insulting so to avoid misinterpretations on why i am posting this definitely not out of hatred for any tribe just plain scientific facts... I am really surprised a moderator in a anthropology forum does not know about oculocutaneous albinism tyrosinase defect and the fact that white albinos are getting skin cancer even during winter which denies all theories on cold adaptation(never saw a snowboarder with sunburn) you really should google indian albinos and their haplogroup because it seems you did not study genetics at all

there are three types of albinism and european albinos have the type 2

LeBrok
12-02-14, 19:31
The idea of white people(indian albinos) being indigenous europe is laughable, they'd have burnt to death in the 8 months of winter when the rays reflect and burn them or during the summer when the sun doesnt go down. How do you explain the fact that europeans can tan and albinos people can't?


Half the climate of Europe modern day europeans is only bearable with sunblock, sun tan lotions, special clothing, modern knowledge, modern medicine and chemotherapy and whites in north europe are still dropping like flies in major cities from sun cancer. 1 in 4 danish women, white danish women, get skin cancer but we are to believe that they were their in ancient times? Take away modern cancer treatment and 1 in 4 danish women die before they even reproduce. Not to mention all the other ones getting cancer from going outdoors without sunblock.
How can you explain pail skin Koreans and Japanese? Still albino Indians? What is interesting is that they exist in same latitude as Europeans and have agricultural past. That's a hell of a coincidence, don't you think?!

Whites come from the central asian plains or asian steppes an area near modern day kazakstan. They were able to survive there because it is basically a cold desert (also known as tundra). Where it doesn't snow a whole lot (or rain). Their skin only turned white around 5,500 years ago or 3,500 bc as a result of albino mutation in indians


The claim of whites getiing white skin from low uv cannot be taken seriously in light of eskimos, nennets and indigenous chilens from artic regions or near artic regions all of whom are dark or dark brown skinned. Further when you compare this to kazakstan which has high uv the claim cannot no longer be believed. Whites are clearly just an albinoid people like this who interbred with each other and moved to somewhere in central asia with consistently low uv.
For your information northern peoples like Eskimo consume a lot of raw liver, as hunter-gatherers do. Liver is a storage of Vitamin D3. That's how they get their vitamin D so there is no need for such white skin as European's have.
Also they are much lighter than Indians. Are they related to Indian albino?

LeBrok
12-02-14, 19:46
there are three types of albinism and european albinos have the type 2 Can you explain the discrepancy why white people need several mutations on few genes to be white, and albino type 2 is related only to OCA2 mutation? Where are the other white skin mutation coming from? Obviously not from albinism.

trutharian
12-02-14, 19:47
as i explained in my eralier potst white indian albinos from haplogroup R which are falsely called white race mixed with brown skinned southerners thats why some of them are able to at least tan a little bit but even they need sunscreen and get cancer even in winter !

no japanese and chinese are not albinos the japanese emerged from a mixture of white albino huns and ancient brown skinned chinese people but they still have melanin in eyes and skin they are far from being albinos like the anglosaxons and celts which have blue eyes which is a sign of no melanin in the eyes and pale skin which is a clear sign of oculocutaneous albnism type 2!!! ignorance is not bliss as i learned myself from my right wing past mate

trutharian
12-02-14, 19:52
to answer all your questions just read the material i sent you per private message..

Nobody1
12-02-14, 19:57
firstly i know a lot about genetics, secondly as i said i am white myself so no need to apologyze, and to state that wikipedia is a valuable source for genetic studies is really not serious is it? white skin is for sure no adaptation to cold environment it is an albino mutation and the birth of the so called white race is caused by albinos in india which started to exclusively breed amongst themselves thats why they multiplied in such numbers and could keep their recessive traits it is 100 percent provable ! and some of them got little bit melanin by mixing with native europeans as they moved into europe because they searched an environment where they could survive with their recessive genes this is science not personal opinion or some kind of offensive insulting so to avoid misinterpretations on why i am posting this definitely not out of hatred for any tribe just plain scientific facts... I am really surprised a moderator in a anthropology forum does not know about oculocutaneous albinism tyrosinase defect and the fact that white albinos are getting skin cancer even during winter which denies all theories on cold adaptation(never saw a snowboarder with sunburn) you really should google indian albinos and their haplogroup because it seems you did not study genetics at all

there are three types of albinism and european albinos have the type 2

So your scientific conclusion is that "white-race" are Albinos from India? Sounds exotic;
The actual scientific term is Caucasoid-race (sub-races Mediterranid/Alpinoid/Iranid/Nordic/Armenoid);

And whether Europeans are Albinos from India or not the Caucasoid race and its sub-races remain the biological (Anthropological) basis/reality as such; Science (Genetics) has now in the last years made progress (substantial) in order to define the Genetic basis/reality of Pigmentation (Hair/Eyes/Skin) which is one field of Anthropology; So that is the Biological (Anthropological/Genetical) reality of Europe and other parts of the World in which the Caucasoid race exists - whether our for-fazers were Albinos from India or not makes absolutely no diff.;

PS: Are you that well known Afrocentrist that spooks around in other forums?
Just with a new identity in this one?

Some studies on the current situation:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1872497312001810
http://www.g3journal.org/content/3/11/2059.full
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003912
http://www.academicjournals.org/article/article1379514057_Lucotte%20and%20Yuasa%20pdf.pdf
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/3/710.long

trutharian
12-02-14, 19:58
there is no such thing as skin and eyes cold adaptation all who claim this are liars and white supremacists who hide their origins


Whites cannot reproduce anything but themselves! Through powerful propaganda and indoctrination we have been completely oblivious to what having white skin really means. We have been skillfully mislead to believe that white skin is mankind’s anthropological model and should be coveted. However, recent research paints a picture of white skin that is just the antithesis of what we have been brainwashed to believe. The polar bear analysis that was done by the Discovery Channel helps prove my point. If you shave the hair off a polar bear, the skin beneath is black. In nature the skin of the polar bear is black to absorb as much heat and light as possible to keep the arctic animal warm in its environment. It is also true for the Eskimo (Inuit). Human adaptation remains an insufficiently studied part of climate and climate change. Scientists have tried for years to prove that the environment was responsible for altering heredity.



Eskimos have brown skin. Eskimos have broad, flat noses. Africans have brown skin. Africans have broad, flat noses. Scientific studies have reported that people are dark because they live near the equator—not because they are Negroid or have a Negroid admixture. There are repeated arguments made by anthropologists when referring to Arabs being brown in color because of the equalitarian closeness. So what about the brownness of skin that occurs in mankind who live the furthest from the equator—the Arctic? Also, the Eskimos’ nose shape does not work to explain temperature-dependencies. Broad, flat noses are more beneficial in hot environments—Oh really!



Scientifically speaking, Black objects absorb heat very well and also emit heat very well. If heat wasn’t emitted at the same rate as was is absorbed, the black object would just get hotter and hotter until it melted. A black beaker cools down much faster than a shiny beaker that does not absorb or emit heat well at all. That is why snow does not melt in cold weather even when the sun is falling directly on it. All of the incident light energy is reflected away and none (or very little) is absorbed.



If black absorbs heat and light and white reflects it, how can we say that white people are adapted more to cold environments than warm? That insinuation that white skin is a result of environmental adaptation is the same orthodox dogma that we have been spoon fed for generations, however when subjected to scientific scrutiny it doesn’t hold water. Reports FALSELY SUGGESTED that Senegalese troops during World War I and Ethiopian troops during the Korean War showed higher rates of frostbite and frozen feet in the African soldiers than their European counterparts. The laboratory work of the researchers also suggested that black skin tissue was more prone to cold injury; however white skin also exhibited some damage. After further research the following was indicated: It was SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN that samples of black skin tissue were less vulnerable to cold damage than the lighter European tissue. This does not sound indicative of white skin being more suitable to cold climates.



Caucasians have a higher concentration of enzyme inhibitors that suppress melanin production, according to Halprin & Ohkawara, 1966. White people also have calcified pineal glands. You may ask how does this imply that white skin is a genetic defect.....The pineal gland secretes melatonin, which activates the pituitary to release M.S.H. (Melanocyte Stimulating Hormone). It is in the melanocytes that melanin (Greek “melas”=black) is produced. Melanin is somewhat analogous to chlorophyll in plants. What a lot of people don’t realize is that melatonin is also related to fertility. Those with pigmented skin have the highest counts of melanocytes in the genitalia and nipples. The pigmentation in these areas can be influenced by sex hormones like estrogens and androgens. During pregnancy, the nipples, face, and abdominal wall become darkened. These areas of increased pigmentation during pregnancy are due to the increase in the production of estrogens.

trutharian
12-02-14, 20:04
So your scientific conclusion is that Europeans are Albinos from India? Sounds exotic; To begin with the scientific term is Caucaosid-race (sub-races Mediterranid/Alpinoid/Iranid/Nordic/Armenoid) not "white-race";

And whether Europeans are Albinos from India or not the Caucasoid race remains the biological (Anthropological) basis/reality;
Science (Genetics) has now in the last years made progress (substantial) in order to define the Genetic basis/reality of Pigmentation (Hair/Eyes/Skin) which is one field of Anthropology; So that is the Biological (Anthropological/Genetical) reality of Europe and other parts of the World in which the Caucasoid race exists - whether our for-fazers were Albinos from India or not makes absolutely no diff.;


at least you acknowledge that there never was such thing as a white race this is a good start
and yes you are right caucasoids are found all over the globe in various shades just in europe the so called nordics are albino caucasoids which is easily provable... and those nordic albinos claim they built all civilisations while in fact before the brwon skinned romans civilised them few hundred years ago they were illiterate nomads originating from russian steppes

and no i am no afrocentrist i am haplogroup R1b i just akcnowledge truth about my ancestors rather than deny it and try to hide it with nonsense thats all

trutharian
12-02-14, 20:07
a good load of facts: http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Roma/How_race_is_made.htm (http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Roma/How_race_is_made.htm)

http://s29.postimg.org/jevdsj27r/WHITE_ORIGIN.jpg

http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Roma/Roma_family_6.jpg

LeBrok
12-02-14, 20:18
as i explained in my eralier potst white indian albinos from haplogroup R which are falsely called white race mixed with brown skinned southerners thats why some of them are able to at least tan a little bit but even they need sunscreen and get cancer even in winter !
You failed to explain anything, especially why other white skin mutations exist in white europeans. Even your hypotheses about OCA2 is wrong because albinism type2 is a mulfunction of this gene creating problems with vision. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK1232/ Blue eye eropeans have perfectly good visions.

trutharian
12-02-14, 20:21
no you are right europeans are not albinos he wear the cap and glasses for fashion i mean come on you are intelligent people how can you ignore such obvious facts?

yes perfectly good visions thank you sir for debunking my idiotic theory thank you very much i have to say i daydream walking around my city and seeing 2 of 3hree people with glasses yes indeed white poeple have perfect vision oh man this ignorance is unbeatable...

you just deny obvious facts that white european indian albinos have highest skin cancer rates and worst vision from all nations aroudn the globe and other serious health issues you are then as ignorant as dog breeders who breed willingly albino dogs even when they akcnowledge that they have serious physical and mental problems omg

sir to be honest i myslef a white man know for sure that european albinos called white race would have never survived without modern medicine and technology cause every healthy living organism has melanin in it dont you know about whites taking melatonin and melanin pills and injections and cant even go snowboarding without a suncreen ?

http://s17.postimg.org/win856klr/EUROPEANS_FIXED_ALBINOS.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-eikH7faO9cM/TgRb6qzkUII/AAAAAAAAAIg/MU7pqpx7kNY/s1600/albino15.jpg

Nobody1
12-02-14, 20:27
at least you acknowledge that there never was such thing as a white race this is a good start
and yes you are right caucasoids are found all over the globe in various shades just in europe the so called nordics are albino caucasoids which is easily provable... and those nordic albinos claim they built all civilisations while in fact before the brwon skinned romans civilised them few hundred years ago they were illiterate nomads originating from russian steppes

and no i am no afrocentrist i am haplogroup R1b i just akcnowledge truth about my ancestors rather than deny it and try to hide it with nonsense thats all

What you are describing is called Nordicism (a nasty ideology) and has truly little to do with actual History or Science; And absolutely correct only the Anthropological defined Caucasoid race and its sub-races are the proper biological reality;

Every Indo-European population ultimately descends (has decend) from the Pontic-Caspian-steppes (i.e. Urheimat) a range that stretches from the North-sea to the Indus-valley and once also the Tarim-basin; And also the 'civilized' Romans ultimately originated from the steppes (proto-Italic/Italic branch) and also they had to adopt civilization from other civilizations;

And Neolithic-Europe wasnt really Brown-skinned (in the traditional sense) anymore - since/as farmers like Ötzi and Stuttgart were already tested to have the rs1426654 (A/A) mutation;

PS: that webpage you are promoting is exactly the webpage of that well known cyber Afrocentrist;
He once had a Greek identity;

LeBrok
12-02-14, 20:51
http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Roma/Roma_family_6.jpg


As for an "informed and scientific" person you are getting things wrong again. The woman on picture is the adopted family. Here are the real family:
http://s1.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20131024&t=2&i=805783388&w=580&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&r=CBRE99N1D7G00
http://m.netinfo.bg/media/images/8584/8584444/655-402-isus-predpolagaem-brat-na-mariia.jpg
http://www.vesti.bg/sviat/balkani/grycki-medii-majkata-na-mariia-e-bylgarka-ot-iambol-5996756

Nobody1
12-02-14, 20:53
And this was the start of albino anglosaxons to rewrite history in their favor and claim all was built by them and they are superior a tactic to hide the fact they are the weakest race genetically recessive thats why they are so racist !

You truly are that Afrocentrist that spooks around in other forums;
Is your dynamite theory about Vikings and Emperors of the HRE being "blacks" still actual?
Or have you abandoned it?

trutharian
12-02-14, 20:55
no you liar!


Mrs. Ruseva is now awaiting the results of a DNA tests to determine whether the little blonde girl is hers. She told told Bulgarian TV that she gave birth to the girl while working in Greece several years ago, but that she had to leave the child behind because she didn't have enough money to take her home. She has had eight children, several of which are Albinos like Maria.

results of dna test!

6243

by the way this is another roma(indian) family whose boy was taken from them by police and then they returned him after dna test which proved he is their child and suffers the same albinism as european "white people" who are indian albinos too
! look at the nose of boy and his father clearly his son i mean you are seriously ignorant man... just because it does not fit your white worldview it doesnt mean it is not true i had also my struggles to accept that because i myself am white R1b and i was also member of a unnamed right wing party in the past so calling me afrocentrist is really funny!
6242

trutharian
12-02-14, 21:00
You truly are that Afrocentrist that spooks around in other forums;
Is your dynamite theory about Vikings and Emperors of the HRE being "blacks" still actual?
Or have you abandoned it?
yes you debunked me i am afrocentrist whose family has italian german and celtic ancestors that was a good one nice try...

how about some serious arguments on topic?

Aberdeen
12-02-14, 21:00
IMO, the "Real History" website is a fantasy website that has no place in a discussion about genetics. I don't see it as being any more valid than the Stormfront website.

LeBrok
12-02-14, 21:02
no you are right europeans are not albinos he wear the cap and glasses for fashion i mean come on you are intelligent people how can you ignore such obvious facts?

yes perfectly good visions thank you sir for debunking my idiotic theory thank you very much i have to say i daydream walking around my city and seeing 2 of 3hree people with glasses yes indeed white poeple have perfect vision oh man this ignorance is unbeatable...
To prove your point make sure that wearing glasses is related to OCA2 mutation. What about brown eye people wearing glasses too? Do they have mild albino mutation?

trutharian
12-02-14, 21:08
IMO, the "Real History" website is a fantasy website that has no place in a discussion about genetics. I don't see it as being any more valid than the Stormfront website.
I think it provides more serious facts and proofs than any other history site i ever read because it is not written by those who want to hide the truth and claim other cultures as their own

what exactly is fantasy there? as long as you have no counter arguments of validity such claims are of no value...

I think it has no sense to further continue to post proofs here because eurocentrists never would accept the fact that we are decended from albino indians even when linguistic genetic and historical facts prove this to such an extent that it is only deniable by huge ignorance

ebAmerican
12-02-14, 21:10
Trutharian - why does it have to be a black or a white race ideology? Albinism is different from skin modulation. Skin modulation is directly related to natural selection. You are aware that modern chimpanzees have a large degree of skin color differentiation. A baby chimpanzee is born white/pale (with close capillaries to skin, which gives a pinkish rosy complexion), and their skin darkens as they age. Early hominids most likely had similar traits 3-1.6 mya. When the environment changed and grasslands expanded these early hominids lost their fur and developed more sweat glands for better heat dissipation. The melanin production in the skin adapted to a dry hotter environment by producing more melanin for UV protection. Babies were at the greatest risk, so natural selection changed the melanin production earlier to the point where babies were born with dark skin. It's not surprising that some environmental or vitamin deficiency effected skin modulation during the last 100M years. It's ridicules to think that hominids had been exclusively black or white and some dysfunctional gene turned us albino white or kept us black. We don't see this in any primates today. Why would you think that wouldn't be the case for modern humans? Chimpanzee's have remarkable skin modulation abilities that allows them to communicate and differentiate between social groups.

LeBrok
12-02-14, 21:14
no you liar!



results of dna test!

6243

Yes, the dna test confirmed that Ruseva's are biological parents. Picture that I posted are of their family. Picture which you postat was with unrelated women who bought the child from Ruseva. How do you feel now about Indian albino hypothesis?






by the way this is another roma(indian) family whose boy was taken from them by police and then they returned him after dna test which proved he is their child and suffers the same albinism as european "white people" who are indian albinos too We are still waiting for your proof that malfunctioning OCA2 gene of albinism type 2 is exactly same mutation as in white people. Without this proof your hypotheses is not a fact. Using your words:

as long as you have no counter arguments of validity such claims are of no value...
live up to your words.

trutharian
12-02-14, 21:19
undeniable proof albinos in africa suffer the same symptoms and helth issues as an average white european just another haplogroup!!! natural selection yes you are right nature selects weakness over health for sure...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LqZvTMRbjQ

trutharian
12-02-14, 21:23
Trutharian - why does it have to be a black or a white race ideology? Albinism is different from skin modulation. Skin modulation is directly related to natural selection. You are aware that modern chimpanzees have a large degree of skin color differentiation. A baby chimpanzee is born white/pale (with close capillaries to skin, which gives a pinkish rosy complexion), and their skin darkens as they age. Early hominids most likely had similar traits 3-1.6 mya. When the environment changed and grasslands expanded these early hominids lost their fur and developed more sweat glands for better heat dissipation. The melanin production in the skin adapted to a dry hotter environment by producing more melanin for UV protection. Babies were at the greatest risk, so natural selection changed the melanin production earlier to the point where babies were born with dark skin. It's not surprising that some environmental or vitamin deficiency effected skin modulation during the last 100M years. It's ridicules to think that hominids had been exclusively black or white and some dysfunctional gene turned us albino white or kept us black. We don't see this in any primates today. Why would you think that wouldn't be the case for modern humans? Chimpanzee's have remarkable skin modulation abilities that allows them to communicate and differentiate between social groups.
every creature is pale in infantile state this disproves nothing look at newborns in all kinds of living forms
only albinos keep their infantile traits life long


Yes, the dna test confirmed that Ruseva's are biological parents. Picture that I posted are of their family. Picture which you postat was with unrelated women who bought the child from Ruseva. How do you feel now about Indian albino hypothesis?
your ignorance astonishes me nope she is the biologicla mother !
and i can show you hundreds of other indian women with albino children which prove that europeans are indian albinos 100%

6244
they look exactly the same as rusevas children and it fits nicely into my claims that as indian albinos left india because of the sun an inbred they became the scythians of russian steppes and later called themselves celts and germans and slavs which are the same albino indian group which left india because of the sun!!!

here you go you ignorant ! http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/10405002/Maria-is-child-of-Bulgarian-couple-DNA-tests-show.html

how about this "cold adapted" average white girl ?! oh sir you just lack arguments

LeBrok
12-02-14, 21:25
undeniable proof albinos in africa suffer the same symptoms and helth issues as an average white european just another haplogroup!!!

Haplogroups have nothing to do with albinism or skin colour. It is all contained in autosomal part of DNA.

Taranis
12-02-14, 21:32
and i can show you hundreds of other indian women with albino children which prove that europeans are indian albinos 100%

they look exactly the same as rusevas children and it fits nicely into my claims that as indian albinos left india because of the sun an inbred they became the scythians of russian steppes and later called themselves celts and germans and slavs which are the same albino indian group which left india because of the sun!!!

here you go you ignorant ! http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/10405002/Maria-is-child-of-Bulgarian-couple-DNA-tests-show.html

I don't like to poke holes into your flamboyant 'hypotheses', but how come that Native Americans, Koreans or Japanese are also so much lighter-skinned than, say Bantu peoples or Australian Aboriginals?

trutharian
12-02-14, 21:43
Haplogroups have nothing to do with albinism or skin colour. It is all contained in autosomal part of DNA.
you didnt read correctly

i said they suffer the same symptoms and health issues as an average white european the only difference is they are from another haplogroup!!! get me?

as i said various posts before the only albinos(albinism isnt limited to any phenotyp) who bred in large numbers exclusively amongst themselves were indian albinos nowdays referring to themselves as anglosaxons celts and or slavs! every other albino group be it asian african or whatever mixed with heathy tribesmen to eliminate recessive genes only indian albinos established a racially exclusive albino nation thats why most europeans have the same haplogroup and same phenotype and least diversity from all continents around the globe!!!


I don't like to poke holes into your flamboyant 'hypotheses', but how come that Native Americans, Koreans or Japanese are also so much lighter-skinned than, say Bantu peoples or Australian Aboriginals?
i repeat again the japanese koreans and such are nothing else than a mixed subrace formed by intermarriages between han chinese and albino indian scythians thats why you will even nowadays find europid people in the area ! like aynu uyghurs kazahks etc and you find red haired remains in china because of this ancient hsitory of intermarriages between chinese and indian albinos called scythians which resulted in new subraces as japanese and koreans

and by the way none of them is albino they still have a helathy dose of melanin in eyes hair and skin even when lighter as their brown ancestors thats uncomparable to europeans!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjBlZl8RON8

trutharian
12-02-14, 21:56
6246

ever wondered why europeans have same language same haplogroup and same phenotypes as indians except lacking melanin(oculocutaneous albinism)?

http://s7.postimg.org/6rhan56t7/slovansky_kozak_a_indicky_muz.png

6245

So many coincidences am i just hallucinating?...

here you have your "cold adapted" white indian albinos called "europeans"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2014277/Schoolgirl-left-burned-teachers-ban-suncream-sports-day-practice.html


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQSJNbiH480

yes and this one "cold adapted" european girl which is even not fully albino cause her parents mixed with some southerners even after snowboarding in ice cold mountains lookes like this.. perfectly adapted
6247

LeBrok
12-02-14, 22:09
you didnt read correctly

i said they suffer the same symptoms and health issues as an average white european the only difference is they are from another haplogroup!!! get me?

as i said various posts before the only albinos(albinism isnt limited to any phenotyp) who bred in large numbers exclusively amongst themselves were indian albinos nowdays referring to themselves as anglosaxons celts and or slavs! every other albino group be it asian african or whatever mixed with heathy tribesmen to eliminate recessive genes only indian albinos established a racially exclusive albino nation thats why most europeans have the same haplogroup and same phenotype and at least diversity from all continents around the globe!!!


i repeat again the japanese koreans and such are nothing else than a mixed subrace formed by intermarriages between han chinese and albino indian scythians thats why you will even nowadays find europid people in the area ! like aynu uyghurs kazahks etc and you find red haired remains in china because of this ancient hsitory of intermarriages between chinese and indian albinos called scythians which resulted in new subraces as japanese and koreans

and by the way none of them is albino they still have a helathy dose of melanin in eyes hair and skin even when lighter as their brown ancestors
You are still avoiding scientific proof of Indian Albinism mutation being same as OCA2 mutation in white europeans. I'm pretty sure you can find sequenced OCA2 to compare the mutations. The proof is on you because it is your hypothesis, right?

Let's assume that you are right. How do you propose Indian Albino kids survived in india (no UV protection) and propagated this recessive trait for few generations, creating majority albion tribe? Can you point us to any Indian village where albino mutation created majority, and made this village ready for migration north? With today's population of India being few times bigger than ever it should be much easier, statistically speaking.
On top of it, this substantial albino population needed to noticed prevalence of skin cancer, after few generations, and correlate it with too much sun and white skin, and then make a group decision to move out to cooler climate. Heck, this is assuming that they knew about different solar radiation of different latitudes. That's quite a research to make, knowledge to acquire and science to have few thousands years ago!
Talking to you, I realised that in today's scientific world there are many who still deny these simple facts, sun, skin colour and diet correlation and causation. Therefore, I shouldn't demand too much from Albaino Indians.

Isn't there a simpler explanation?

LeBrok
12-02-14, 22:12
6247

Can you post statistics of skin cancer in Australia and England. Let's see where white skin gives more health benefit.

LeBrok
12-02-14, 22:18
i repeat again the japanese koreans and such are nothing else than a mixed subrace formed by intermarriages between han chinese and albino indian scythians thats why you will even nowadays find europid people in the area ! like aynu uyghurs kazahks etc and you find red haired remains in china because of this ancient hsitory of intermarriages between chinese and indian albinos called scythians which resulted in new subraces as japanese and koreans

Archaeology and historic records tell us about population movement Indo Iranians from Steppes to India and Middle East. There is no archeological or historic records about huge population movement from India to Europe. Except small groups of Gypsy, who most of the time don't want to mix much with locals, and neither show much of albinism. Not more than other races.

trutharian
12-02-14, 22:19
Can you post statistics of skin cancer in Australia and England. Let's see where white skin gives more health benefit.
it has no benefit in neither australia nor iceland! because it is not an adaptation but a genetic defect! 100% proved

here you have your "cold adaptation" debunked a so called "snowburn"
and by the way you need melanin to absorb vitamin d from the sun anywhere on earth try to wear a white shirt in summer and afterwards put on a black one and see the difference white skin reflects lgiht therefore it cannot absorb vitamin d thats why all our products in europe are fortified even the sweets!!! man how much ignorance more?
6248

this is the only "adaptation" left for white albinos in any environment!
http://media3.s-nbcnews.com/j/streams/2014/February/140204/2D11511618-g-cvr-140122-weather-tease-240p.blocks_desktop_medium.jpg

i myself as an european accept thsi fact and only eurocentrists can deny it because it makes their false world falling apart

now at least you know where the caveman vampire shy of daylight european mythology originates from(white european aka indian albinos or bluebloods albinos have such pale skin that babies are born blue )!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmQwMllhCUM

trutharian
12-02-14, 22:25
Archaeology and historic records tell us about population movement Indo Iranians from Steppes to India and Middle East. There is no archeological or historic records about huge population movement from India to Europe. Except small groups of Gypsy, who most of the time don't want to mix much with locals, and neither show much of albinism. Not more than other races.
haha the aryan invasion was debunked long ago my friend and i gave you lots of evidence for my theory which in fact is not even a theory but a provable fact 100%
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=008590;p=1#000 000

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=008217

INBREEDING CAUSED THE ALBINO OFFSPRING IN INDIANS WHICH LATER BECAME EUROPEANS AS THEY MOVED TO A COLDER CLIMATE TO SURVIVE!!! UNDENIABLE 100% APPROVED

LeBrok
12-02-14, 22:31
it has no benefit in neither australia nor iceland! because it is not an adaptation but a genetic defect! 100% proved

here you have your "cold adaptation" debunked a so called "snowburn"
and by the way you need melanin to absorb vitamin d from the sun anywhere on earth try to wear a white shirt in summer and afterwards put on a black one and see the difference white skin reflects lgiht therefore it cannot absorb vitamin d thats why all our products in europe are fortified even the sweets!!! man how much ignorance more?
6248

this is the only "adaptation" left for white albinos in any environment!
http://media3.s-nbcnews.com/j/streams/2014/February/140204/2D11511618-g-cvr-140122-weather-tease-240p.blocks_desktop_medium.jpg

i myself as an european accept thsi fact and only eurocentrists can deny it because it makes their false world falling apart
If color of skin doesn't matter, neither vitamin D production, tell me why there were no black tribes living in Europe or North Asia, and were no white tribes in Equatorial Area? Let's skip the colonial era and modern population movements.

LeBrok
12-02-14, 22:36
haha the aryan invasion was debunked long ago my friend and i gave you lots of evidence for my theory which in fact is not even a theory but a provable fact 100%
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=008590;p=1#000 000
You have to do better than this. We are not the ones who makes bold and incredible claims. The proof is on you and you are not doing the best job arguing your points.

Where is the proof that albinism mutation is the same OCA2 mutation of white people? Without this your hypotheses crumbles.
We are still waiting, but our patience is running out. Your derogatory and disrespectful attitude towards Eupedia members is not helping either.

trutharian
12-02-14, 22:40
You have to do better than this. We are not the ones who makes bold and incredible claims. The proof is on you and you are not doing the best job arguing your points.

Where is the proof that albinism mutation is the same OCA2 mutation of white people? Without this your hypotheses crumbles.
We are still waiting, but our patience is running out. Your derogatory and disrespectful attitude towards Eupedia members is not helping either.
HERE IT IS!
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=008217 (http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=008217)

trutharian
12-02-14, 22:46
If color of skin doesn't matter, neither vitamin D production, tell me why there were no black tribes living in Europe or North Asia, and were no white tribes in Equatorial Area? Let's skip the colonial era and modern population movements.
i must repeat myself again on something i already answered in my previous posts
here again..


The claim of whites getiing white skin from low uv cannot be taken seriously in light of eskimos, nennets and indigenous chilens from artic regions or near artic regions all of whom are dark or dark brown skinned. Further when you compare this to kazakstan which has high uv the claim cannot no longer be believed. Whites are clearly just an albinoid people like this who interbred with each other and moved to somewhere in central asia with consistently low uv.

http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Dobruja_Thrace_1.htm

eskimos, colchians, nenets, mansi, khanty, lapps, chilean indians do you want me to name more dark skinned flat nosed people living in coldest places or is it enough?! also the food theory is rubbish because i never heard of a scandinavian eating any dish without meatballs or salmon which is enough to fit the vitamin d needs even for an albino! albinos simply are not adapted to any environment thats a fact and 100% PROVED
http://www.beforethey.com/media/c/288x288/images/Nenets/nenet_portrait_crop.jpg

still hang on to your manipulated albino made up history(HIS STORY)?!

trutharian
12-02-14, 23:03
Following-up on the SLC45A2 gene in Humans.


SLC45A2: a novel malignant melanoma-associated gene.
Fernandez LP, Milne RL, Pita G, Avilés JA, Lázaro P, Benítez J, Ribas G.
Source

Human Genetics Group, Human Cancer Genetics Program, Centro Nacional de Investigaciones Oncológicas, Madrid, Spain.
Abstract

Human pigmentation appears to be one of the strongest risk factors for malignant melanoma (MM). In humans, there is a long list of genes known to be involved in rare pigmentary disorders such as albinism. These genes explain most of the variation in pigmentation phenotypes seen in human populations, and they do this by regulating the level of synthesis, chemical composition, packaging, and distribution of melanin. This Spanish case-control study included 131 consecutive melanoma patients and 245 control subjects frequency-matched for sex and age. A total of 23 SNPs in six candidate genes (ASP, OCA2, TYR, TYRP1, SILV, and SLC45A) belonging to the pigmentation pathway were genotyped. We found that the variant allele of c.1122C>G, p.Phe374Leu (NCBI dbSNP rs16891982) in SLC45A2 (membrane associated transporter previously known as MATP) was associated with protection from MM (OR, 0.41; 95% CI, 0.24-0.70; P=0.008 after adjustment for multiple testing). This association was validated by the consistent link observed with dark hair, dark skin, dark eye color, and the presence of solar lentigins and childhood sunburns. This is the first time SLC45A2 has been described as a melanoma susceptibility gene in a light-skinned population.

martiko
12-02-14, 23:03
Please learn the difference on genetic level between Albinism here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albinism, and white skin mutation of Europeans, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_skin_color. Once you learn that one is not related to another, you can come back and apologise to all the white people, or at least don't hate them so much.

trutharian (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/48528-trutharian)

my grand-daughter on vacation under the sun of Florida (Miami) when she was three years old, she is not albino and even if his father is Haitian, and she supports the sun even better than her sisters who are less clear; It has now twelve years old with a skin in very well and not shaded ;therefore all that you write has no sense

They are miscellany with R1b and support the equatorial sun perfectly!

6249

trutharian
12-02-14, 23:15
fantastic natural adaptation to codl climate oh my gosh you ignorants of factual proof
he gets even problems in cold environment not to mention miami!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvihO45uVZw

trutharian
12-02-14, 23:24
trutharian (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/48528-trutharian)

my grand-daughter on vacation under the sun of Florida (Miami) when she was three years old, she is not albino and even if his father is Haitian, and she supports the sun even better than her sisters who are less clear; It has now twelve years old with a skin in very well and not shaded ;therefore all that you write has no sense

They are miscellany with R1b and support the equatorial sun perfectly!

6249
YES PERFECT NONSENSE!
http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ls5jsks3PE1qgy5nto1_400.jpg
http://www.plasticsurgeryafrica.org/images/albino2_big.jpg
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/236x/63/8d/9b/638d9b259eaca455decda716dc4c11a8.jpg

europeans are simply albinos from india(haplogroup R) who are not adapted to neither cold nor hot climate get over the fact ! it is a genetic recessive defect not an adaptation ...

All albinos regardless if human or animal have the exact same problems with health and behaviour:
http://dpca.org/albino/albino_about.htm
http://www.halodoberman.com/albinismhealth.html
http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii126/jonny_trouble-cards/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_9902.jpg
http://www.realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Images_Anatolia/turk_4.jpg

Aberdeen
12-02-14, 23:41
Trutharian, are your posts some kind of weird performance art thing? They certainly aren't grounded in reality.

ebAmerican
12-02-14, 23:44
Trutharian - Can you write you last statement in Italian? Julia or another member would easily tell if your truly Italian. I'm guessing not.

LeBrok
12-02-14, 23:44
HERE IT IS!
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=008217 (http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=008217)
NO it is not. You claimed that white europeans are white because of Indian Albinism mutation of type 2. Again where is the proof of it?

trutharian
12-02-14, 23:47
NO it is not. You claimed that white europeans are white because of Indian Albinism mutation of type 2. Again where is the proof of it?
the proof is overhelming from first page to last its not my fault that you did not read it!

From haplogroup, language, albino genes through incest, migration etc
i explained all from page one till now so what are you missing?!

A miss is as good as a mile...

trutharian
12-02-14, 23:48
Trutharian, are your posts some kind of weird performance art thing? They certainly aren't grounded in reality.

again just void claims with no valid arguments against my provided facts...


Trutharian - Can you write you last statement in Italian? Julia or another member would easily tell if your truly Italian. I'm guessing not.
Mi stai prendendo in giro?

ebAmerican
12-02-14, 23:56
No, No, your previous comment in Italian, thanks.

trutharian
13-02-14, 00:02
No, No, your previous comment in Italian, thanks.
Vai a quel paese signore ebamerican!

ebAmerican
13-02-14, 00:12
Thanks I proved my point. It would be easy for an Italian. Good use of Google translate. Nothing you say holds merit.

LeBrok
13-02-14, 00:14
the proof is overhelming from first page to last its not my fault that you did not read it!
Yes it is overwhelming for you, that's why your arguments are not presented well or coherent to be even called hypotheses.

- you can't prove that Albinism of type 2 is cause of white skin in europeans, even less than it came from India.
- you contradict archeology and historic records of population movements
- you contradict research and medical statistics on vitamin D3 in different climatic zones.
- you contradict dietary research and vitamin D3 consumption
- you don't see correlation and causation of climatic zones and skin pigmentation
- you ignore cultural aspect like cloths or sun tanning fashion of 60s to 80s, population movement and epidemic of skin cancer
- you fail to address valid critique of your hypotheses
- you blindly repeat and recycle your mantra, not to say ideology, bordering with racism
- you failed to prove your point, or points, instead posting random images of albinism or white mutations
- you argument with insults and not with facts
- you call north Europeans sick mutants, inbreeds, and still accusing them of racism

And we are the ones who don't get it?

trutharian
13-02-14, 00:24
Yes it is overwhelming for you, that's why your arguments are not presented well or coherent to be even called hypotheses.

- you can't prove that Albinism of type 2 is cause of white skin in europeans, even less than it came from India.
- you contradict archeology and historic records of population movements
- you contradict research and medical statistics on vitamin D3 in different climatic zones.
- you contradict dietary research and vitamin D3 consumption
- you don't see correlation and causation of climatic zones and skin pigmentation
- you ignore cultural aspect like cloths or sun tanning fashion of 60s to 80s, population movement and epidemic of skin cancer
- you fail to address valid critique of you hypotheses
- you blindly repeat and recycle your mantra, not to say ideology, bordering with racism
- you failed to prove your point, or points, instead posting random images of albinism or white mutations
- your argument with insults and not with facts
- you call north europeans sick mutants and accusing them of racism

And we are the ones who don't get it?
of course i contradict and debunk studies made by eurocentric indian albinos which try to manipulate history in their favor and even if i am myself european i search real truth not eurocentric nonsense!!! these official history made up by european albinos has the same validity as the commercial saying that "FLUORIDATED TOOTHPASTE IS HEALTHY"

if truth insults you then be it so its not my fault thats natures work

martiko
13-02-14, 00:33
I did not think that the Caribbean and Florida were of tempered climate!?
It supports perfectly the sun, as in Egypt, Turkey, Tunisia where she was on vacation; albino does not support it, on the other hand as my daughter who is her mother she has a perfect view and we did not point out problems of eyes with the sun for those who have the clear eyes and no glasses except with age sometimes.
Can be we have a type, with many other people, gene was not listed in your catalogue.
Worry you, of the fact that they do not find the more brown person and that would support the sun less definitely and that on top of that would carry glasses and if it is not unique case, your theory would be to line up in the museum of tall stories.

Engel
13-02-14, 03:43
Never heard this theory before, but will google as you suggest
and find out

LeBrok
13-02-14, 05:46
of course i contradict and debunk studies made by eurocentric indian albinos which try to manipulate history in their favor and even if i am myself european i search real truth not eurocentric nonsense!!! these official history made up by european albinos has the same validity as the commercial saying that "FLUORIDATED TOOTHPASTE IS HEALTHY"

if truth insults you then be it so its not my fault thats natures work


Conspiracy theory show to the max. I wish we had Psychiatrist General of European Union number handy. This is freaking emergency!

Engel
14-02-14, 07:11
trutharian,
have browsed thru realhistory link of yours.
Interesting to note that there is a very compelling evidence
there to make even a die hard skeptic go hmmmm..

MOESAN
14-02-14, 16:26
I don't think that contemporary skin color, lactase tolerance, hair color and other particular traits correlate that much with autosomals, at least within europe. I think these traits are mostly driven quickly by evolutionary selection or drift, even more than haplogroups. This can be seen at south europeans who live in northern europe. Half of them become as pale as the natives.

are you not confusing basic genetic pigmentation potential with external pigmentation aspect linked to sun exposition? no evolution runs so quickly!
OK for your explanation concerning drift: it is almost sure it played a role - but in this thread we consider (for now) only a locus concerning potential lightening genes - but other mutations occurs on other loci (maybe localized very near, I do'nt know, scholars like keep some mystery) helping to acquire lighter skin...
very often I have the impression someones (not you personally) confuse the heavy lightening action of certains genes gvinig way to the "white" skin as poosed to "black" skin or "brown" skin, with the slight lightening actions of other genes that seem to me acting among 'europoids', and being linked to hair and eyes pigmentation and not only to skin pigmentation?

MOESAN
14-02-14, 16:41
İ am from central anatolia its lie!! All isolated villiages in anatolia have green blue eyes some of them red hair our ancestor raped :( like iranians we also mixed arabs :((( central anatolian people have white skin sone of them brown we have brown hair not black we are tall people blonde hair green eyes common in isolated villiages

sorry - always the old reaction to put the exception in the place of the rule!
I don't deny some anatolian people are fair or mixed hair and eyes coloured, but as a whole Anatolia is darker than the most of south-southern Europe, except Sardigna and Cyrpus, even if I know by a huge survey I red the body consitution of today Turcs is very variable, individually and by regions! on my some provinces show a litlle bit more fair pigmentation and it does not go very high!
red hairs and reddish ones were (last century begining) 0,5% (scholars) - I saw in my amateur "work" about 1% of blonds and about 15% of brown hairs -
scholars found 2% of blue eyes - but some western regions of Anatolia are a bit fairir it is true...(same problem: the large countries are not completely homogenous place to place)
the quality of dark hair is as a whole a bit lighter than what we find among Semitic populations (I don't speak about Jews here) and even sometimes among some mediterranean populations - as a hazard, this "light" quality of "black" hair seems again linked to mesocephally, or trend to brachycephally...

MOESAN
14-02-14, 16:51
just for Turcs (sorry for the topic here): the emigrees in France seem as a whole more often dark than the national mean: very often it occurs when emigrees reach a new country: they are not always the average picture of their country of origin: differences in %s of regions of origin (the poorest ones)! (the same with Poles, Swedes, Italians in the USA

Angela
14-02-14, 19:36
are you not confusing basic genetic pigmentation potential with external pigmentation aspect linked to sun exposition? no evolution runs so quickly!
OK for your explanation concerning drift: it is almost sure it played a role - but in this thread we consider (for now) only a locus concerning potential lightening genes - but other mutations occurs on other loci (maybe localized very near, I do'nt know, scholars like keep some mystery) helping to acquire lighter skin...
very often I have the impression someones (not you personally) confuse the heavy lightening action of certains genes gvinig way to the "white" skin as poosed to "black" skin or "brown" skin, with the slight lightening actions of other genes that seem to me acting among 'europoids', and being linked to hair and eyes pigmentation and not only to skin pigmentation?


I hope I'm not intruding here, but I just wanted to mention that analysis of the effects of pigmentation genes does show a role for the minor snps. However, from studies on African Americans, they seem to function around the edges of the major actors, like SLC24A5 nd SLC45A2 and TYR. Even among those major players, there is still variation in Europe. Well, at least in terms of SLC45A2 and TYR, there is still variation.

Also, from looking at African Americans and the effect of only three hundred years of admixture on an even darker SSA pigmentation, I would say that such changes can happen rather quickly, and with far less than 50% admixture, and in the absence of an impact from environmental factors in combination with a need for Vitamin D.

So, I'll extend my bet with Greying Wanderer to you Moesan...if a European with pale skin and freckles shows up who does not carry the three major skin lightening genes, but only has some minor ones, the aperitif is on me. :)

(That said, I do take your point about the apparent quickness of this genetic sweep. If we assume SLC24A5 arose somewhere in the Near East and entered Europe perhaps with the Neolithic around 5,000 B.C., and that the SLC 42A5 mutation occurred around the same time in Europe, the period from this date to the first descriptions of northern Europeans (around say 1500 BC?) is about 3500 years.

Still, if LP persistence arose around 4500 BC?, and was extremely prevalent around 1000 A.D., we're talking about only 5500 years. Longer, I'll grant you, but not tens of thousands of years.)

MOESAN
22-02-14, 00:38
I hope I'm not intruding here, but I just wanted to mention that analysis of the effects of pigmentation genes does show a role for the minor snps. However, from studies on African Americans, they seem to function around the edges of the major actors, like SLC24A5 nd SLC45A2 and TYR. Even among those major players, there is still variation in Europe. Well, at least in terms of SLC45A2 and TYR, there is still variation.

Also, from looking at African Americans and the effect of only three hundred years of admixture on an even darker SSA pigmentation, I would say that such changes can happen rather quickly, and with far less than 50% admixture, and in the absence of an impact from environmental factors in combination with a need for Vitamin D.

So, I'll extend my bet with Greying Wanderer to you Moesan...if a European with pale skin and freckles shows up who does not carry the three major skin lightening genes, but only has some minor ones, the aperitif is on me. :)

(That said, I do take your point about the apparent quickness of this genetic sweep. If we assume SLC24A5 arose somewhere in the Near East and entered Europe perhaps with the Neolithic around 5,000 B.C., and that the SLC 42A5 mutation occurred around the same time in Europe, the period from this date to the first descriptions of northern Europeans (around say 1500 BC?) is about 3500 years.

Still, if LP persistence arose around 4500 BC?, and was extremely prevalent around 1000 A.D., we're talking about only 5500 years. Longer, I'll grant you, but not tens of thousands of years.)

I agree with your terms (for "black" Americans I don't know what mixture they put in this category so...) -
but concerning El Horsto, we are not speaking about (apparently) of thousands of years but of three generations (southern Europeans emigrated in northern Europe): it makes a big differences, didn' t it ? Or maybe El Horsto was speaking about La Brana descendants??? He only can precise us...

ElHorsto
22-02-14, 02:22
I agree with your terms (for "black" Americans I don't know what mixture they put in this category so...) -
but concerning El Horsto, we are not speaking about (apparently) of thousands of years but of three generations (southern Europeans emigrated in northern Europe): it makes a big differences, didn' t it ? Or maybe El Horsto was speaking about La Brana descendants??? He only can precise us...

Pardon, I did not notice that you was responding to me.
So the following statement demands clarification then:


This can be seen at south europeans who live in northern europe. Half of them become as pale as the natives.


I'm sorry I was not more clear. Even I have trouble remembering what I wanted to say here. Well, I think my point was that there is a big proportion of south-europeans (maybe 50%?) which are not olive-skinned. These individuals seem to pale out (and some show freckles) to about the same degree (no scientific measurement here, just simple observation!) as many north-european natives if both live in northern latitude under sparse sunlight. I think this is one evidence that skin paleness has become somewhat independent (drift) from autosomal composition over time, regardless from which autosomal component it once originated.

MOESAN
22-02-14, 14:49
Pardon, I did not notice that you was responding to me.
So the following statement demands clarification then:


I'm sorry I was not more clear. Even I have trouble remembering what I wanted to say here. Well, I think my point was that there is a big proportion of south-europeans (maybe 50%?) which are not olive-skinned. These individuals seem to pale out (and some show freckles) to about the same degree (no scientific measurement here, just simple observation!) as many north-european natives if both live in northern latitude under sparse sunlight. I think this is one evidence that skin paleness has become somewhat independent (drift) from autosomal composition over time, regardless from which autosomal component it once originated.

individuals are making collective populations - types too but supposed to represent a previous stage, so previous populations mixed in new populations, with the results of crossed individuals showing all kinds of new and heterogenous distributions of traits -
my experience tells me there is no present pure population nor type - some populations are fairer, some darker - among fairer population, fair individuals are very common, dark ones very rare - in others, dark individuals are very common, fair ones very rare (the opposite) - but every time we see intermediary middle pigmented individuals: logical!
the 'olive' skin is the rule among true dolichocephalic 'mediterranean' type of any sort, and the majority among the populations where these types are dominant in % - other dark pigmented europoids show less "hard" colour, more a mate pale yellowish white skin than an 'olive' one -
the sun exposure tann every sort of skin, pinky white or middle of every sort or mate or 'olive', the darker hues tanning more and easier -
BUT I NEVER SEE AN EMIGRATED POPULATION OF SOUTH SETTLING IN NORTH AND BECOMING FAIRER OF SKIN AFTER THREE GENERATIONS (we have the case in France: Spaniards, Portugueses, Italians of South, Maghrebins...: only the same result we can have after a hard tanning summer when we pass the foloowing winter: our skin founds back its first colour, but doesn't become fairer than before -
under strong selective pressure (as in ancient times) the composition of genes submitted to it can evolved very quickly independently from the rest of the autosomals - they are themselves autosomals by the way! - but in modern times and without a new STRONG environmental pressure, the "cocktail" of autosomals associated with the selectionable ones keep on steady - we have enough vitamine D providers in our variated food -
+ NOT CONFUSE SOME INDIVIVUALS WITH WHOLE POPULATION

&: by the way too a survey about irish first agricultors conclude (?) milk was more absorbed for proteins than for vitamine D ... to look at later...

MOESAN
22-02-14, 14:54
most of Arabic people (the ones without subsaharian admixture) showing brown skin on visage shwo only the 'olive' kinf of white skin under their armpits - (true Bedwins) - these people, comong to live among us, pass as southern European for this trait - but they never become fairer in a controlable time -

Angela
22-02-14, 18:12
most of Arabic people (the ones without subsaharian admixture) showing brown skin on visage shwo only the 'olive' kinf of white skin under their armpits - (true Bedwins) - these people, comong to live among us, pass as southern European for this trait - but they never become fairer in a controlable time -

I would agree with this, and with your prior post.

Some of this has to do with different tanning ability. The two pictures below are of the same man:

Also, I don't think people are aware of the range of phenotypes that can be found in southern Europe, because, as you've pointed out before, much depends on the specific region from which the migrants were drawn.

For example, I don't think that most people would think that our schoolchildren can look like this...this picture was taken at a local school in my area.

http://www.unionedicomunimontanalunigiana.it/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/scuola.jpg

Angela
22-02-14, 18:15
Sorry, the two pictures of the young man didn't post above.

http://archivio.gonews.it/foto/pucci_paolo_facebook1.jpg

http://www.lanazione.it/data/images/gallery/2013/73994/pu1.jpg

ElHorsto
22-02-14, 20:26
BUT I NEVER SEE AN EMIGRATED POPULATION OF SOUTH SETTLING IN NORTH AND BECOMING FAIRER OF SKIN AFTER THREE GENERATIONS


Actually I meant within ONE generation - within one and the same individual. I've seen many south europeans living in germany who are no way darker by skin color than average germans or other europeans. At least I'm not able to tell most south europeans from natives by their skin color (for instance make an image search for Chatzimarkakis, a german politician). I can tell them from natives only by other features like hair and eye color and shape. Of course there are many other emigrants, mostly Turks and Arabs, who become pale too, but in a different, less rosy, more white-yellow-grey way. I explicitly mentioned that I don't refer to those!



(we have the case in France: Spaniards, Portugueses, Italians of South, Maghrebins...: only the same result we can have after a hard tanning summer when we pass the foloowing winter: our skin founds back its first colour, but doesn't become fairer than before -
under strong selective pressure (as in ancient times) the composition of genes submitted to it can evolved very quickly independently from the rest of the autosomals - they are themselves autosomals by the way! - but in modern times and without a new STRONG environmental pressure, the "cocktail" of autosomals associated with the selectionable ones keep on steady - we have enough vitamine D providers in our variated food -
+ NOT CONFUSE SOME INDIVIVUALS WITH WHOLE POPULATION


I don't confuse that, you possibly misunderstood me. If I understand you correctly, I agree and this is what I'm trying to say. Autosomals without selective bias behave randomly, so an autosomal as a whole remains statistically much more stable than one single gene and one gene behaves randomly in absense of selective bias, but much more fluctuantly. I was just saying that genes for skin color are already very overlapping and similar between north and south europe, so basically 'white', not matter from where it started - EEF, WHG. ANE or whichever autosomal cluster.



&: by the way too a survey about irish first agricultors conclude (?) milk was more absorbed for proteins than for vitamine D ... to look at later...

Possible. I was also thinking that Britain is optimal for cattle and less optimal for crop but also less optimal for fishing, because fishing is not so easy in the wild north-Atlantic. So maybe this was a (additional?) reason why neolithic Britons prefered dairy over fish and thus increased LP over generations (Possibly even the irish famine in 19th century can be explained by difficulties to go fishing?) Maybe the mesolthic hunter-gatherers had special fishing techniques which the farmers were unable to adopt. I think this is possible because there was a similar situation with Icelandic settlers in Greenland who refused to learn special hunting-techniques (for big targets like walrus and whales) from the native Inuits. As a result many icelandic settlements died out from starvation. These icelanders were already partially christianized (about 13th century, I don't remember exactly), and it was believed that christian religiosity contributed to their arrogance not to learn from the natives. The neolithic farmers were possibly also reluctant or arrogant.

Mike111isphony
26-10-16, 20:21
you are a proven fraud Mike

Mike111isphony
26-10-16, 20:25
he willl make numerous faux accounts in an attempt to seem as if people agree with him.