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Garrick
19-01-14, 12:52
According to Rediff about 250 billion litres of alcohol is consumed all across the world, with European nations leading the pack. The best placed non-European country is South Korea.

25 countries that drink most beer, wine, spirits in the world January 11, 2014 08:53 IST


http://www.rediff.com/business/slide-show/slide-show-1-25-countries-that-drink-most-beer-wine-spirits-in-the-world/20140111.htm

List:
1. Moldova
2. The Czech Republic
3. Hungary
4. Russia
5. Ukraine
6. Estonia
7. Andorra
8. Romania
9. Slovenia
10. Belarus
11. Croatia
12. Lithuania
13. South Korea
14. Portugal
15. Ireland
16. France
17. United Kingdom
18. Denmark
19. Slovakia
20. Poland
21. Austria
22. Luxembourg
23. Germany
24. Finland
25. Latvia

Maciamo
19-01-14, 13:38
So 24 European countries in the top 25, including all North Slavic and Baltic countries ! It's odd that South Koreans drink so much since East Asians lack the enzymes for digesting alcohol efficiently.

bicicleur
19-01-14, 18:42
Belgium should be in the top 25.
According to local propaganda here, many Belgians are alcohol addicted.
All neighbouring countries except the Netherlands are in the list.

ElHorsto
20-01-14, 00:19
I don't understand the math of this ranking. For example how can Russia rank above Estonia when Estonia has higher consumption of each beer/wine/spirits than Russia?



Russia
Consumption of beer: 3.65 litres per capita per year
Consumption of wine: 0.10 litres per capita per year
Consumption of spirits: 6.88 litres per capita per year
Overall rank in per capita consumption of alcohol: 4


...

Estonia

Consumption of beer: 5.53 litres per capita per year

Consumption of wine: 1.09 litres per capita per year
Consumption of spirits: 9.19 litres per capita per year
Overall rank in per capita consumption of alcohol: 6

Aberdeen
20-01-14, 02:03
When I look around the internet, I find references to different studies by different groups, all showing slightly different results in terms of who drinks the most, I suppose because they have different ways of trying the measure alcohol consumption. However, the results are broadly similar - the nations that consume the most alcohol per capita are mostly European, and Koreans apparently drink more than other Asians.

Angela
20-01-14, 17:46
When I look around the internet, I find references to different studies by different groups, all showing slightly different results in terms of who drinks the most, I suppose because they have different ways of trying the measure alcohol consumption. However, the results are broadly similar - the nations that consume the most alcohol per capita are mostly European, and Koreans apparently drink more than other Asians.

The only country appearing in the list that actually surprised me was Portugal.

I wonder how these numbers correlate with actual levels of alcoholism.

LeBrok
20-01-14, 19:47
The only country appearing in the list that actually surprised me was Portugal.

I wonder how these numbers correlate with actual levels of alcoholism.
Surprisingly it is hard to find alcoholism statistics. I remember seeing one some time ago. It was showing more alcoholics in Northern Europe than by Mediterranean Sea. It is with agreement with spread of farming from south to north which brought first alcohol with it. People around Mediterranean had more time "getting used to" distractive effect of alcohol, and can deal with it much better. For the same reason, it does most devastation for Natives of North America and Australian Aborigines, it also affects Black Americans more than whites. Pretty much it correlates with history of farming.

Aberdeen
21-01-14, 06:14
Surprisingly it is hard to find alcoholism statistics. I remember seeing one some time ago. It was showing more alcoholics in Northern Europe than by Mediterranean Sea. It is with agreement with spread of farming from south to north which brought first alcohol with it. People around Mediterranean had more time "getting used to" distractive effect of alcohol, and can deal with it much better. For the same reason, it does most devastation for Natives of North America and Australian Aborigines, it also affects Black Americans more than whites. Pretty much it correlates with history of farming.

I don't think it's quite that simple. Perhaps people in northern Europe have higher rates of alcoholism because they have higher rates of depression, since they have to live through the dark winter months of the northern hemisphere. Certainly Europeans generally handle alcohol better than many other races because Europeans have the enzymes necessary to digest alcohol well. But some of these other people who don't handle alcohol well hardly drink, while others drink a lot (especially those races who were colonized to the point where they permanently lost control of what had been their land). I think all sorts of things affect who drinks more, but of course the question of who better handles X amount of alcohol if they drink it depends on whether they have the necessary enzymes to digest alcohol.

LeBrok
21-01-14, 07:23
I don't think it's quite that simple. Perhaps people in northern Europe have higher rates of alcoholism because they have higher rates of depression, since they have to live through the dark winter months of the northern hemisphere. Certainly Europeans generally handle alcohol better than many other races because Europeans have the enzymes necessary to digest alcohol well. But some of these other people who don't handle alcohol well hardly drink, while others drink a lot (especially those races who were colonized to the point where they permanently lost control of what had been their land). I think all sorts of things affect who drinks more, but of course the question of who better handles X amount of alcohol if they drink it depends on whether they have the necessary enzymes to digest alcohol.
Surely there many more reasons for people to go into alcoholism. I was just going for this main one, which nicely correlates nicely with farming and history of alcohol.
Should we call it "The gift of farmers"?

I just wonder if EEF were sharing their alcohol with neighboring hunter-gathers WHG. Sort of like Europeans with Native Americans. It could cause destruction of WHG communities. Although I'm not sure when alcohol was invented by farmers.

hope
21-01-14, 13:15
Surely there many more reasons for people to go into alcoholism. I was just going for this main one, which nicely correlates nicely with farming and history of alcohol.
Should we call it "The gift of farmers"?

I just wonder if EEF were sharing their alcohol with neighboring hunter-gathers WHG. Sort of like Europeans with Native Americans. It could cause destruction of WHG communities. Although I'm not sure when alcohol was invented by farmers.

Evidence for the earliest fermented drinks came from a site in China..[Jiahu].. 7000 BC.

However in Europe, the evidence for the earliest beer came from a neolithic site at Can Sadurni, in Spain.
http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/archives/11/2013/neolithic-death-ritual-includes-earliest-evidence-european-beer

So it seems we have been brewing for a while, LeBrok.

Ike
22-01-14, 11:56
Evidence for the earliest fermented drinks came from a site in China..[Jiahu].. 7000 BC.

However in Europe, the evidence for the earliest beer came from a neolithic site at Can Sadurni, in Spain.
http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/archives/11/2013/neolithic-death-ritual-includes-earliest-evidence-european-beer



Are they sure it was a beer? Finding a jar with a substance that is also contained in a beer doesn't mean much. It could be anything from lime to vomit...

LeBrok
22-01-14, 18:04
Evidence for the earliest fermented drinks came from a site in China..[Jiahu].. 7000 BC.

However in Europe, the evidence for the earliest beer came from a neolithic site at Can Sadurni, in Spain.
http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/archives/11/2013/neolithic-death-ritual-includes-earliest-evidence-european-beer

So it seems we have been brewing for a while, LeBrok.
If it was similar in Europe then alcohol and farming have spread at same time. Though too soon for farmers to build immunity to it, so farmers and HGs were same drunk from it. Unless, they couldn't produce enough alcohol to be drunk as much as they wanted? This could have protected their societies from rampant alcoholism and cultural and economic collapse.
There is also a chance that alcohol became only affordable by 18-19 century for masses, with industrial production. I remember reading from Polish history about alcoholism of noble class in 15-17 century, and widespread alcoholism in lower classes by 19 century.

hope
22-01-14, 20:35
Are they sure it was a beer? Finding a jar with a substance that is also contained in a beer doesn't mean much. It could be anything from lime to vomit...

That`s a good question, Ike.
The piece just says they found traces of oxalate [ calcium oxalate I presume ]. If so, I read this is a scale that forms on brewery containers. Also barley corn is a cereal which is used in brewing. I would expect they did a proper analysis and not yet published full report.
I did a bit of a search regarding the piece but there`s nothing that gives any better details. I`d like to know more about it also.

hope
22-01-14, 22:06
If it was similar in Europe then alcohol and farming have spread at same time. Though too soon for farmers to build immunity to it, so farmers and HGs were same drunk from it. Unless, they couldn't produce enough alcohol to be drunk as much as they wanted? This could have protected their societies from rampant alcoholism and cultural and economic collapse.
There is also a chance that alcohol became only affordable by 18-19 century for masses, with industrial production. I remember reading from Polish history about alcoholism of noble class in 15-17 century, and widespread alcoholism in lower classes by 19 century.

What do you think regarding this novel idea..I just found it earlier by accident. Talk about putting a new spin on something.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2527074/Did-BEER-create-modern-society-Ancient-man-developed-agriculture-brew-alcohol-not-bake-bread-claims-scientist.html

Aberdeen
22-01-14, 22:59
If it was similar in Europe then alcohol and farming have spread at same time. Though too soon for farmers to build immunity to it, so farmers and HGs were same drunk from it. Unless, they couldn't produce enough alcohol to be drunk as much as they wanted? This could have protected their societies from rampant alcoholism and cultural and economic collapse.
There is also a chance that alcohol became only affordable by 18-19 century for masses, with industrial production. I remember reading from Polish history about alcoholism of noble class in 15-17 century, and widespread alcoholism in lower classes by 19 century.

I guess different European countries have had different histories when it comes to alcohol. In England and Scotland, the rural masses drank large amounts of alcoholic beverages. In Scotland it was whiskey, and in different parts of England it was either ale or hard cider. Alcoholic beverages are cheap if you make them from your own produce and don't pay any taxes on them. And once a large urban population developed in England, the working poor drank large amounts of gin. Originally, governments didn't tax alcoholic beverages much or at all, since it was assumed that taxing alcoholic beverages would cause social unrest. Taxing alcoholic beverages would have also greatly increased the mortality rate in the cities, since there was no safe drinking water in the cities. As a result, only imported brandy and wine for the upper classes was taxed. It was really the 19th century reformers who were trying to help the urban poor with schools, good water and drainage systems and minimum wage laws who pushed for excise taxes on gin and ale in order to reduce drinking. They reasoned that once cities had proper water treatment systems and tea became more affordable (it was an expensive luxury in England until about the 1840s), there was no reason for drinking so much ale or gin, and people would be better off without it.

That same alcohol friendly culture existed here in Canada, or at least here in the Province of Ontario. My father told me old tales he'd heard from his grandfather about country stores having large barrels of (excise tax free) whisky and a dipper. Anyone who came into the store and bought something could take a free drink of whisky from the barrel. Attempts to impose excise duties on whiskey in Canada in the 1870s resulted in riots. Apparently, most people felt that they could accept a tax on anything else as long as whiskey wasn't taxed. That attitude did change quite a bit, to the extent that by the 1920s Canada was experimenting with alcohol prohibition, but prohibition was never really accepted by most people. When someone came to my grandparent's door asking them to sign a petition to prevent the repeal of prohibition, my grandfather asked the man whether he was working for the Methodist preachers or for the bootleggers.

Angela
23-01-14, 01:10
The same was certainly true in southern Mediterranean countries. Families made their own wine (and olive oil); many still do today if they have even a patch of ground somewhere. The difference, I think, is that most home made wine in Italy, for instance, has a very low alcohol rate. Also, although children were traditionally allowed to drink wine, usually it was mixed with water...what we call "baptized" wine.

A lot of wine is certainly consumed in Italy, the European country I know best, but it's not abused at the rates present in some other countries. I don't know the reason. Certainly, cultural factors are at play. Traditionally, to be visibly drunk just wasn't considered acceptable behavior, not even among men, and I can't even imagine a situation where women consumed a lot of alcohol. If a behavior is not tolerated in a society, you're just not going to get very much of it.

Something else has to be at play, however. I've always been struck by the differences between alcohol consumption in Italy versus France. In both countries, wine is consumed from a very young age. Yet, France consumes more per capita, and has more of a problem with alcoholism.

You would think, considering how much alcohol affects society, that there would be a better understanding of the genetic factors at play, but there isn't . Very few studies, and even those contradict one another.

Anyway, for what it's worth, this is a map of alcoholism related deaths and disorders by country that was put out by the World Health Association.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Alcohol_use_disorders_world_map_-_DALY_-_WHO2004.svg

Aberdeen
23-01-14, 02:35
There definitely must be cultural factors at work. I notice the really high rate of alcoholism in Russia, which is probably caused by the fact that all those people have to live in Russia. Although I imagine it could be quite a nice place if they ever got a few decades of good governance.

LeBrok
23-01-14, 02:49
The same was certainly true in southern Mediterranean countries. Families made their own wine (and olive oil); many still do today if they have even a patch of ground somewhere. The difference, I think, is that most home made wine in Italy, for instance, has a very low alcohol rate. Also, although children were traditionally allowed to drink wine, usually it was mixed with water...what we call "baptized" wine.

Anyway, for what it's worth, this is a map of alcoholism related deaths and disorders by country that was put out by the World Health Association.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Alcohol_use_disorders_world_map_-_DALY_-_WHO2004.svg

Here is the European part of this map. Interestingly it correlates with ANE admixture and its SW-NE cline. Also in both cases Hungary sticks out there in the middle.
6205
Below is my ANE map, keep in mind that many countries were guesses for lack of data. I guessed portugal to be equal to Spain, but it might be higher in ANE than Spain due to first IE settlements there to the West of Iperia and Swabians from Germany. It would correlate with higher alcohol/deaths for Portugal vs Spain.
6206
It might be the case that people with most EEF handles alcohol better than people with a lot of ANE. We might need farmers genes to handle alcohol in more "civilized" way.



Something else has to be at play, however. I've always been struck by the differences between alcohol consumption in Italy versus France. In both countries, wine is consumed from a very young age. Yet, France consumes more per capita, and has more of a problem with alcoholism.
I'm interested if South France handles alcohol more like Italy and Spain, and North France is more drunk in general.


You would think, considering how much alcohol affects society, that there would be a better understanding of the genetic factors at play, but there isn't . Very few studies, and even those contradict one another.
We know about alcohol digesting enzimas and related genes. I'm not sure but probably gene duplications should play valid role too, as more enzimes would suggest faster alcohol methabolizm therefore recovery.
Also there are studies pointing to genetics in alcohol or other drugs dependence. Whether a drug is addictive on a person or not.

Alcohol dependence and dependence on other drugs frequently co-occur, and strong evidence suggests
that both disorders are, at least in part, influenced by genetic factors. Indeed, studies using twins
suggest that the overlap between dependence on alcohol and on other drugs largely results from shared
genetic factors.
http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh312/111-118.pdf

I would also guess that other genes could be in play, genes that making a person feeling so much pleasure from alcohol to strongly desire more till passing out.

LeBrok
23-01-14, 03:10
What do you think regarding this novel idea..I just found it earlier by accident. Talk about putting a new spin on something.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2527074/Did-BEER-create-modern-society-Ancient-man-developed-agriculture-brew-alcohol-not-bake-bread-claims-scientist.html
From the link:

Man is thought to have first settled to grow crops for food 10,000 years ago

But some scientists say it was brewing that drove agriculture
Beer provided early farmers with a number of benefits, experts say

If not true, it is certainly intriguing. Maybe one of 4 of known independent farming cultures started with booze but not all. Plus brewing takes a very different process than milling wheat for flour and baking bread.
There are also a very old finds from around the globe pointing to the fact that hunter-gatherers added wheat seeds to their boiled "soups". Therefore I'm sure people known wheat as edible product first, before they made alcohol out of it.

PS. Thanks to your article I've found the culture which I'm suspecting of having women the first farmers, the Natufian Culture:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natufian_culture

The Natufian culture / (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English)n (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ə (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ˈ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)tj (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)uː (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)f (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)i (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ə (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)n (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)/ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English) was an Epipaleolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epipaleolithic) culture that existed from 13,000 to 9,800 B.C.
Sickle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle) blades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blade) appear for the first time. The characteristic sickle-gloss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle-gloss) shows that they have been used to cut the silica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silica)-rich stems of cereals and form an indirect proof for incipient agriculture
Wow, the first Sickle!

Garrick
25-01-14, 02:12
There definitely must be cultural factors at work. I notice the really high rate of alcoholism in Russia, which is probably caused by the fact that all those people have to live in Russia. Although I imagine it could be quite a nice place if they ever got a few decades of good governance.

And climate factor too. Muhammad forbade alcohol, but climatic factors in Arabia are not suitable, especially for spirits. On the other hand general opinion is that people need alcohol to survive the cold weather in the northern areas.

kamani
25-01-14, 02:54
there is nothing like a couple of shots of vodka when it's -25 outside.

LeBrok
25-01-14, 03:58
And climate factor too. Muhammad forbade alcohol, but climatic factors in Arabia are not suitable, especially for spirits. On the other hand general opinion is that people need alcohol to survive the cold weather in the northern areas.
Some people can come to this conclusion knowing drinking habits of Finns and Russians.

wlkwos
14-05-15, 23:25
Low quality alcoholic drinks

Rethel
16-06-15, 14:33
Surprisingly it is hard to find alcoholism statistics. I remember seeing one some time ago. It was showing more alcoholics in Northern Europe than by Mediterranean Sea. It is with agreement with spread of farming from south to north which brought first alcohol with it. People around Mediterranean had more time "getting used to" distractive effect of alcohol, and can deal with it much better. For the same reason, it does most devastation for Natives of North America and Australian Aborigines, it also affects Black Americans more than whites. Pretty much it correlates with history of farming.

LeBrok, you shouldn't, but you surprized me again!:smile:

You present like always some naturalistic conspiracy theory :)

Yet a little more, and I'll start to belive that you treat people like animals or robots. :)

As you not see in this examples, theory of alcohol devastation dosn't work.
This statistics which showed us Garrik, are giving a lot to thinking about.

It seems, like alcohol have nothing to do with lack of development, economic
growth, prosperity, inventions, military or economic superiority, and inteligence.
It seems to be rather helpfull, than devastating! :laughing:
All the more so, that in the past europeans were much more drinking than today.
It is really amaizing. :rolleyes2:

Angela
16-06-15, 19:14
Alcohol has definite benefits. Alcoholism does not.

I don't have the time to do the research for you, but just look up the toll that alcoholism takes in terms of lost hours of work and the effects of that on the economy. Then factor in the added costs in medical care. It not only damages the liver; there are also connections to bladder cancer, especially in combination with tobacco use, and other cancers as well. How about the devastation it causes in families through lost wages for food and shelter, or spousal and child abuse ranging from physical assaults to sexual assaults. Then factor in chromosomal damage or damage to children in the womb. There is a reason that women are told not to consume alcohol, or at least not very much alcohol during pregnancy. Also, how can you possibly say there is no tie to depression. Forget all the studies, of which there are many, anybody over 18 should now this just by personal experience alone. Sometimes it's situational, the loss of a job, a spouse, a child, sometimes it's clinical depression which may have genetic roots. Either way, for those who cannot handle alcohol, it's a slide into alcoholism.

Consuming some alcohol can indeed be beneficial in a society. Having a big proportion of people in a culture who can't handle alcohol isn't beneficial to the individuals or their culture as a whole.

LeBrok
16-06-15, 19:24
LeBrok, you shouldn't, but you surprized me again!:smile:

You present like always some naturalistic conspiracy theory :)

Yet a little more, and I'll start to belive that you treat people like animals or robots. :)

As you not see in this examples, theory of alcohol devastation dosn't work.
This statistics which showed us Garrik, are giving a lot to thinking about.

It seems, like alcohol have nothing to do with lack of development, economic
growth, prosperity, inventions, military or economic superiority, and inteligence.
It seems to be rather helpfull, than devastating! :laughing:
All the more so, that in the past europeans were much more drinking than today.
It is really amaizing. :rolleyes2:
Ignorance is a bliss.
http://www.ibtimes.com/native-americans-tragedy-alcoholism-214046

Rethel
16-06-15, 19:45
Alcohol has definite benefits. Alcoholism does not. I don't have the time to do the research for you, but just look up the toll that alcoholism takes in terms of lost hours of work and the effects of that on the economy. Then factor in the added costs in medical care. It not only damages the liver; there are also connections to bladder cancer, especially in combination with tobacco use, and other cancers as well. How about the devastation it causes in families through lost wages for food and shelter, or spousal and child abuse ranging from physical assaults to sexual assaults. Then factor in chromosomal damage or damage to children in the womb. There is a reason that women are told not to consume alcohol, or at least not very much alcohol during pregnancy. Also, how can you possibly say there is no tie to depression. Forget all the studies, of which there are many, anybody over 18 should now this just by personal experience alone. Sometimes it's situational, the loss of a job, a spouse, a child, sometimes it's clinical depression which may have genetic roots. Either way, for those who cannot handle alcohol, it's a slide into alcoholism. Consuming some alcohol can indeed be beneficial in a society. Having a big proportion of people in a culture who can't handle alcohol isn't beneficial to the individuals or their culture as a whole.


You really doesn't get it!?! http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/rolleyes.gifhttp://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif

(p.s. all what you Angela said is true,
and I am agree with that. Personally,
I am not drinking almost at all...)



Ignorance is a bliss.

Probably Thomas Gray was right... http://emotikona.pl/emotikony/pic/037.gif
But you didn't get it either... http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/rolleyes.gif http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif

Angela
16-06-15, 21:23
You really doesn't get it!?! http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/rolleyes.gifhttp://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif

(p.s. all what you Angela said is true,
and I am agree with that. Personally,
I am not drinking almost at all...)




Probably Thomas Gray was right... http://emotikona.pl/emotikony/pic/037.gif
But you didn't get it either... http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/rolleyes.gif http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif

You have yet to make a logical point, either because you don't have one or because you can't communicate it. If it's the latter, perhaps it's because of problems using the English language. Given that perhaps this is a language issue, I'll give it one more try.

What is your explanation for the fact that although alcohol is equally available in all European countries, some countries have very large portions of their population who regularly drink themselves insensible, with all the attendant ills personally and societally, and others do not?

You seem to reject that there is a genetic component related to ancient populations. So, what is it? Higher levels of depression and mental health disorders and people are self-medicating? Lack of self-control? Bad parenting? What?

Rethel
16-06-15, 22:05
You have yet to make a logical point, either because you don't have one or because you can't communicate it. If it's the latter, perhaps it's because of problems using the English language. Given that perhaps this is a language issue, I'll give it one more try.

It was partialy a situational irony (which should be not explaining) - and this was the principal point, because:

- At first glance, it seems, that worldly drink-champions conquerd the world and created the most advanced civilization.
- The most poorest and not developed countries have the lowest drink-ratings.
- So - reference to LeBrok mention about alcohol who had degradating infuence on some populations - it isn't the factor who decided about populations development.
- It seems to be totaly differet - drunkards were creative, developmental, expansionist and prosperious, but abstinents were backward, much less creative with decline culture.

- So, the drinking is not most important factor, which population is more advanced, and which is not,
which is devastated, and which is not. Then conclusion, which was making Lebrok is not correct - if it
would be correct, whities from Europe shold be the most degradated people in the world, and most
uncivilized, most unhappy and most backwarded people in the planet. But we aren't.


What is your explanation for the fact that although alcohol is equally available in all European countries, some countries have very large portions of their population who regularly drink themselves insensible, with all the attendant ills personally and societally, and others do not?

Free will, local customs, fashion and so on.

Maybe this was good for europeans, that we have the highest level of consuming an alcohol,
because idiots died because of drinking, and more intelligent people could live and developed.

This is some kind of natural selecion, which you are liking so much... :good_job:


You seem to reject that there is a genetic component related to ancient populations.

It may be, or not - it doenst matter, because drinking wasn't for europeans so bad.
And if wasn't for europeans, the same is according to the others. So, once more I'll
repeat: chempions of drinking created the most advanced civilization, so blaming the
alcohol for the failors of the others is nonsensical, and bring to mind exuses of toper... :rolleyes2:

LeBrok
16-06-15, 22:54
It was partialy a situational irony (which should be not explaining) - and this was the principal point, because:

- At first glance, it seems, that worldly drink-champions conquerd the world and created the most advanced civilization.
- The most poorest and not developed countries have the lowest drink-ratings.
- So - reference to LeBrok mention about alcohol who had degradating infuence on some populations - it isn't the factor who decided about populations development.
- It seems to be totaly differet - drunkards were creative, developmental, expansionist and prosperious, but abstinents were backward, much less creative with decline culture.

- So, the drinking is not most important factor, which population is more advanced, and which is not,
which is devastated, and which is not. Then conclusion, which was making Lebrok is not correct - if it
would be correct, whities from Europe shold be the most degradated people in the world, and most
uncivilized, most unhappy and most backwarded people in the planet. But we aren't.



Free will, local customs, fashion and so on.

Maybe this was good for europeans, that we have the highest level of consuming an alcohol,
because idiots died because of drinking, and more intelligent people could live and developed.

This is some kind of natural selecion, which you are liking so much... :good_job:




Doesn't your mother always tell you to think before you open your mouth?

Isn't it obvious that it is not about alcohol per se, but the amount and way of drinking. Don't you really see a difference between an occasional drink and drinking to oblivion every day till death?







It may be, or not - it doenst matter, because drinking wasn't for europeans so bad.
And if wasn't for europeans, the same is according to the others. So, once more I'll
repeat: chempions of drinking created the most advanced civilization, so blaming the
alcohol for the failors of the others is nonsensical, and bring to mind exuses of toper... :rolleyes2:
Europeans are not the drinking champions, the hunter gatherers like prairie Indians and Australian Aborigines are. Check the statistics. And how is the life going for them?

Rethel
16-06-15, 23:11
Doesn't your mother always tell you to think before you open your mouth?

No, she's dead.


Isn't it obvious that it is not about alcohol per se, but the amount and way of drinking. Don't you really see a difference between an occasional drink and drinking to oblivion every day till death?

As I said, it was a little ironic.


Europeans are not the drinking champions, the hunter gatherers like prairie Indians and Australian Aborigines are. Check the statistics. And how is the life going for them?

But I was talking aspecially about this simples added by Garrick.

Polish and russian peasents still can blame polish nobility from before
300 years that they make them drink (what wasn't actually true even
then) even if they are not descendants of peasants! If someone want
blame something or someone he always can do that... For Indians and
Aborigines is only one simple thing which can changed their life - stop
drinking. This is not so hard... But if they want drink - you are from free
world, so you should respect their wishes... :good_job:

juliakate
08-05-17, 15:32
Informative post it is useful for us.

Urahaydres
03-07-19, 15:00
I thought that Russia top1 drink country