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bicicleur
19-01-14, 14:37
I have a theory : E - V13 arrived as slaves in the Balkans

By 7000 years ago, the Balkans were the most advanced civilization :
they had copper and gold mines and had advanced metalworking thecnology
the population grew very fast
maybe they invented the plough to increas food production
maybe they even had the first writing system :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C4%83rt%C4%83ria_tablets

They had also fortified towns, alltough they were not threatened by tribes from abroad :

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/11/01/bulgarian-archaeologist-says-team-has-unearthed-europe-oldest-town-near-salt/

I think there was much social inequality, and they had slaves.
The slaves were E - V13 and they were imported from Lybia, north-Africa

Cardium pottery spread 8000 years ago in the eastern Mediteranean (500 years later also in the western Meditaranean)
They were fisherman (at sea) , farmers and traders.
They traded obsidian, als with Libya, north-Africa.



http://shell.cas.usf.edu/~rtykot/PR22%20-%20AccChemRes%202002.pdf



After the period of the 'green Sahara' , noth-Africa became progressively more arid.
I think E-V13 were cattle herders becoming increasingly desperate because of the aridification.
Some E-V13 who still owned cattle made it to Southern Italy, or even to Catalonia, Spain, as proven by ancinet DNA (see the Eupedia section for that)
But the majority owned nothing and were sold or sold themselves as slaves to work in the Balkan mines or fields for food production.

I know this is a highly speculative theory.

I would like your feedback on that.

MOESAN
19-01-14, 22:11
Slaves, I suppose, rarely become a prominent or high % male HG in a population - just an intuition

bicicleur
20-01-14, 00:07
Slaves, I suppose, rarely become a prominent or high % male HG in a population - just an intuition

yes, that's right,
but it just so happened, 6000 years ago the Balkans were invaded by Indo-Europeans who had cattle, but who knew notting about farming.
the whole country got desintegrated, but if you were a slave then, and you knew how to work the land, I guess this was rather good news

Ike
20-01-14, 15:30
I have a theory : E - V13 arrived as slaves in the Balkans

Where from? How did they end up in Spain 7 kya (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26980-G2a-and-E-V13-in-Neolithic-Spain-(5000-BCE))?
Are there any deeper subclades among E-V13, that could make a distinction?

bicicleur
21-01-14, 20:46
Where from? How did they end up in Spain 7 kya (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26980-G2a-and-E-V13-in-Neolithic-Spain-(5000-BCE))?
Are there any deeper subclades among E-V13, that could make a distinction?

from northern Tunesia

http://shell.cas.usf.edu/~rtykot/PR22%20-%20AccChemRes%202002.pdf

northeren Tunesia was also part of the obsidian trade
these traders traded not only obsidian, but also slaves

Some E-V13 who still owned cattle were not sold as slaves but made it to Southern Italy, or even to Catalonia, Spain

I guess their status was something like the Jews in Egypt
That is how they survived as a tribe.
After the invasions of the Indo Europeans in the Balkans (6000 and 5500 years ago) they were free again

albanopolis
21-01-14, 21:00
I have a theory : E - V13 arrived as slaves in the Balkans

By 7000 years ago, the Balkans were the most advanced civilization :
they had copper and gold mines and had advanced metalworking thecnology
the population grew very fast
maybe they invented the plough to increas food production
maybe they even had the first writing system :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C4%83rt%C4%83ria_tablets

They had also fortified towns, alltough they were not threatened by tribes from abroad :

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/11/01/bulgarian-archaeologist-says-team-has-unearthed-europe-oldest-town-near-salt/

I think there was much social inequality, and they had slaves.
The slaves were E - V13 and they were imported from Lybia, north-Africa

Cardium pottery spread 8000 years ago in the eastern Mediteranean (500 years later also in the western Meditaranean)
They were fisherman (at sea) , farmers and traders.
They traded obsidian, als with Libya, north-Africa.



http://shell.cas.usf.edu/~rtykot/PR22%20-%20AccChemRes%202002.pdf




After the period of the 'green Sahara' , noth-Africa became progressively more arid.
I think E-V13 were cattle herders becoming increasingly desperate because of the aridification.
Some E-V13 who still owned cattle made it to Southern Italy, or even to Catalonia, Spain, as proven by ancinet DNA (see the Eupedia section for that)
But the majority owned nothing and were sold or sold themselves as slaves to work in the Balkan mines or fields for food production.

I know this is a highly speculative theory.

I would like your feedback on that.
Do your ideas come during consuming alcohol or other banned substances?
If so, its worth looking in terms of how those substances influence the brain.

John123
21-01-14, 21:43
How long have we left this guy rummage on about e-v13 jew-slaves; how long has he been allowed to go unchecked? Please bicicleur; stop abusing the magic shrooms lol

John123
21-01-14, 21:45
The Greeks spread E-V13 across Mediterranean Europe; the Greeks. E-v13 originated on the Balkans just like J2b did. Here's another one with his directly from Libya to greece/southern italy theories XD

bicicleur
22-01-14, 10:48
The Greeks spread E-V13 across Mediterranean Europe; the Greeks. E-v13 originated on the Balkans just like J2b did. Here's another one with his directly from Libya to greece/southern italy theories XD

you seem pretty sure

how do you know that ?

John123
22-01-14, 18:28
Well they certainly spread it to southern italy via magna graecia colonizations; not a doubt. It was "Greek" when it appeared near that general region of the Balkans, maybe there's some old E-V13 in a few Spanish caves that contradicts this but the general pattern of spread via the Balkans has been well-established. They weren't directly Libyans or Jew-crypto-slaves; I'll tell you that much.

bicicleur
23-01-14, 14:52
Well they certainly spread it to southern italy via magna graecia colonizations; not a doubt. It was "Greek" when it appeared near that general region of the Balkans, maybe there's some old E-V13 in a few Spanish caves that contradicts this but the general pattern of spread via the Balkans has been well-established. They weren't directly Libyans or Jew-crypto-slaves; I'll tell you that much.

the 7000 yo ancient DNA in Catalunia is undeniable
southern Italy may have been Magna Graecia
but how did E-V13 get to the Balkans then?
you say along with J2b
J2b came from Anatolia
how and when did E-V13 in Anatolia then?
the Semitic tribes got into the Levant only 5500 years ago, and they are supposed to be E-M34

John123
23-01-14, 17:34
J2b originated in the Balkans. I'm not sure, there must have been an ancient contact between the early Balkans and the Iberian peninsula somehow, with an oldest contact of 5,000-7,000 years ago; it's hard to explain that.

kamani
23-01-14, 17:54
This is all the European E lineages:

E-M78: came in Paleolithic from Levant through Caucasus or Anatolia in the post-LGM expansion from Near-East into Europe. Landed in Bulgaria.
E-v13: Born in Balkans. Spread all over in Paleolithic, Neolithic, Antiquity (Romans, Thracians, Illyrians, Greeks).
E-M123: came mostly with Neolithic farmers from Levant and Phoenicians. This has always been the little brother that nobody knows. Maybe Phoenicians and/or Neolithic Near-Eastern Farmers were 20-30% this one, and that translated into 5-6% max in certain European populations in the Mediteranean coast.

John123
23-01-14, 18:26
E-M78 via Anatolia. I don't see evidence thracians and Illyrians had E3b; they seem to have originally expanded via the Dalmatian region of the northwestern Balkans.

kamani
23-01-14, 19:02
I don't see evidence thracians and Illyrians had E3b.
There is some evidence:
-In England E-v13 is found in higher percentages in areas settled by Roman soldiers from Illyrian/Thracian origin.
-In Italy there is a high concentration of E-v13 in the part of the Adriatic coast settled initially by Illyrians (google map of Illyrians).
-currently it is a major haplogroup in all ex Illyrian/Thracian areas in Ballkans (Kosovo 45%, Bulgaria up to 35% in some areas etc).
-The percentage in Crete is lower that in Continental Greece, meaning it has always been based more in mainland Balkan than in the Islands.

I do agree that the pioneer IE part of Illyrian gene-pool came from North-West, possibly through Danube coridor.

Sile
23-01-14, 19:12
There is some evidence:
-In England E-v13 is found in higher percentages in areas settled by Roman soldiers from Illyrian/Thracian origin.
-In Italy there is a high concentration of E-v13 in the part of the Adriatic coast settled initially by Illyrians (google map of Illyrians).
-currently it is a major haplogroup in all ex Illyrian/Thracian areas in Ballkans (Kosovo 45%, Bulgaria up to 35% in some areas etc).
-The percentage in Crete is lower that in Continental Greece, meaning it has always been based more in mainland Balkan than in the Islands.

I do agree that the pioneer IE part of Illyrian gene-pool came from North-West, possibly through Danau coridor.

There is only between 5 to 10% of that marker in Illyrian lands, note on the internet and on this forum, where do you get your information from.? link please

The marker is ancient, greek, macedonian, epirote and western south thracian lands.

Its lower in crete because it is not associated with mycenean, minoan or doric people

It in England due to some thracian roman soldiers, the illyrian component as per studies is minimal because the illyrians where basically celtinized by the time the Romans arrived.

kamani
23-01-14, 19:54
There is only between 5 to 10% of that marker in Illyrian lands
Ofcourse you think that, if you count only modern Slavic Croatians as Illyrian. Just google Illyrians and you'll see the maps, they were not just in Bosnia and Croatia.

Sile
23-01-14, 20:00
Ofcourse you think that, if you count only modern Slavic Croatians as Illyrian. Just google Illyrians and you'll see the maps, they were not just in Bosnia and Croatia.

if you want to roughly ( extreme rough ) marry it with modern borders, then

illyrian = croatia, bosnia and slovenia ....not in any order

thracian = serbia, bulgaria and romania ..........and european turkey

epirote = northwest greece and albania

macedonian = macedonia and some of northern greece

pannonian = hungaria

but as I said very rough association............really modern borders have zero association with ancient lands


But again, there are no illyrian people , only tribes which are associated in a geographical area called illyria

Bardhyl
23-01-14, 21:40
paternal genetic lineage shown by Y chromosome is only 1/46th of genetic make up.
So, I dont know if its good to built up history based on only YDna.
MtDna test according to wikipedia:
Computing the frequency of common point mutations of the present-day European population with the Thracian population has resulted that the Italian (7.9%), the Albanian (6.3%) and the Greek (5.8%) have shown a bias of closer genetic kinship with the Thracian individuals than the Romanian and Bulgarian individuals (only 4.2%) (Wiki)


And Illyrians were built up in tribes, we cant know for sure how close they were culturally and linguistically the taulanti the dardani, the labeates in the south with the pannoni in the north, only which is known from around 400 bc until the romans conquered the illyrians the NOTABLE kings mostly reigned from the southern part of the illyrian tribes, namely Agron, Teuta, Gentius, Glaucias, Bardyllis, were reigning from the region in Scodra (Albania) and the area nearby

John123
23-01-14, 21:42
Sile hit the nail on the head pretty much, he's right.

John123
23-01-14, 21:49
E-V13 in southern italy/Sicily was a Greek colonization marker more than anything else. The Illyrians would have radiated from Slovenia/Croatia/Bosnia-Herzegovina down to about northern Albania; E-V13 frequencies are generally far weaker up here than Albania and Greece (excluding Crete). The magna graecia colonizations would have taken place in the Classical Greek eras; long after Mycenean culture would have made E-V13 expand.

LeBrok
23-01-14, 22:02
E-V13 in southern italy/Sicily was a Greek colonization marker more than anything else. The Illyrians would have radiated from Slovenia/Croatia/Bosnia-Herzegovina down to about northern Albania; E-V13 frequencies are generally far weaker up here than Albania and Greece (excluding Crete). The magna graecia colonizations would have taken place in the Classical Greek eras; long after Mycenean culture would have made E-V13 expand.
How old is E-V13?

John123
23-01-14, 22:12
Atleast 7,000 years old

John123
23-01-14, 22:15
Bronze Age Europe (circa 4,500 years ago) saw the introduction to the Balkans of the E-V13/J2b package, probably agriculturalists from nearby western Turkey hopping over into Europe.

bicicleur
23-01-14, 22:50
Bronze Age Europe (circa 4,500 years ago) saw the introduction to the Balkans of the E-V13/J2b package, probably agriculturalists from nearby western Turkey hopping over into Europe.

J2b came with the neolithic package to Thessaly, Greece 9000 years ago, and expanded into the Balkans 8500 years ago.

John123
23-01-14, 22:57
Very possible; some time within the past 5,000-10,000 years; do you know which one came first? (E-V13 or J2b?)

LeBrok
23-01-14, 23:40
Atleast 7,000 years old
Greek were most influential around Mediterranean Sea from 3,000-2,000 years ago. That's 4,000 years of discrepancy between Greeks and E-V13!!!

1. Where do you propose E-V13 was hiding for 4,000 years?
2. Why do you think the E-V13 couldn't spread around Europe for this 4 thousand years prior to Greek Civilisation? a)Where they invalids? b) European Continent didn't exist?
3. How do you explain presence of V13 in Northern Europe at 5% or even Central Europe in 10%? Clue: There are no known migrations or invasions of Greeks to Northern Europe in last 3,000, for the entire duration of Greek culture! Actually, all known migrations came from North or East mainly, and with people lacking V13, so it means that level of V13 was much higher through Europe before antiquity, let's say in late Neolithic.
4. Are there known records of Greeks settling in Kosovo and North Albania, the epicenter of V13? Maybe ancient Greeks came from Kosovo?
5. Who introduced E-V13 to Geeks 7kya? I'm sure you're not saying that Greek Culture is 7,000 years old.
6. Why there is so little V13 in Anatolia? Less in Anatolia than in Hungary. Was Hungary a Greek colony?
7. Spain doesn't match greek colonies
8. Italy's V13 is rather consistent all over. It should be much higher in south where Grecia Magna was, shouldn't it?
9. Bulgarian distribution of V13 doesn't match greek coastal presence either.


http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif

Can you explain these questions in Greek Civilization framework?

PS. Greek Civilization was rich in E-V13, they surely did spread some of it around conquered land. It doesn't mean they are responsible for any substantial amount of it around the sea, otherwise V13 map would resemble geek colonies pattern but it isn't.
http://www.utexas.edu/courses/greeksahoy!/greek_colonies_550.jpg

Bardhyl
23-01-14, 23:52
Thanks LeBrok thats some of the questions I had too

John123
24-01-14, 00:17
E-V13 peaks in southern italy and on the Ligurian coast where Greeks are also attested to have settled. E-V13 in Italy is largely associated with Ancient Greek presence. Also, E-V13 IS known to have had it's first European presence in the Balkans. You say that surely Greek culture hadn't started 7,000 years ago, but the first Neolithic farmers of Crete were present 9,000 years ago. What does the Bulgarian distribution of E-V13 not being coastal even matter? E-V13 was present in the south-central Balkans; are you saying Bulgaria isn't in the Balkans? There's more E-V13 in Hungary than turkey, so you're saying E-V13 descended from the north? E-V13 was either spread around the Mediterranean by people from the southern Balkans more recently (such as Greeks), or it is a product of the earlier Neolithic period. Why there is an E-V13 sample from Spain dating to 7,000 years ago, personally, I do not know.

John123
24-01-14, 00:23
E3b in Italy peaks in the toe of Calabria (27%), Basilicata (as high as 25-36%) and Apulia (20-25%). It's also found in the Campobasso region (25%) and the Ligurian region of Genoa (25%). It is found sporadically in the Veneto region. This perfectly matches a spread via Greek colonization. Now, in what concerns the 7,000 year old Spanish sample, it is an outlier, and it deffinetly puts the whole "Greek spread only" theory at risk, shooting us all the way back to the Neolithic spread theory as a possibility again.

John123
24-01-14, 00:30
Here , a good read:

"Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%)."


Within Europe, E-V13 is especially common in the Balkans and some parts of Italy. In different studies, particularly high frequencies have been observed in Kosovar Albanians (45.6%) (Peričic et al. (2005)), Macedonian Albanians (34.4% reported in Battaglia et al. (2008)), and in some parts of Greece (about 35% in some of the areas studied by King et al. (2008).[14] More generally, high frequencies have also been found in other areas of Greece, and amongst Bulgarians, Romanians, Macedonians and Serbs.[4][12][15][16]
Within Italy, frequencies tend to be higher in Southern Italy,[1] with particularly high results sometimes seen in particular areas; for example, in Santa Ninfa and Piazza Armerina in Sicily.[17] High frequencies appear to exist also in some northern areas[Note 4] for example around Venice,[Note 5] Genoa[18] and Rimini,[19] as well as on the island of Corsica, which is to the west of mainland northern Italy.[20]
E-V13 is also found in scattered and small amounts in Libya (in the Jewish community) and Egypt, but this is considered most likely to be a result of migration from Europe or the Near East.[1]

Phylogenetic analysis have suggested to some researchers that these lineages have spread through Europe, from the Balkans in a "rapid demographic expansion".[1] Before then, the SNP mutation, V13 apparently first arose in West Asia around 10 thousand years ago, and although not widespread there, it is for example found in high levels (>10% of the male population) in Turkish Cypriot and Druze Arab lineages.[1] The Druze are considered a genetically isolated community, and are therefore of particular interest.[21] The STR DNA signature of some of the E-V13 men amongst them was actually originally classified in the delta cluster in Cruciani et al. (2004). This means that Druze E-V13 clustered together with most E-V12 and E-V22, and not with European E-V13, which was mostly in the alpha cluster.

The distribution and diversity of V13 are often thought to represent the introduction of early farming technologies, during the Neolithic expansion, into Europe by way of the Balkans.[11] The haplogroup J2b (J-M12) has also frequently been discussed in connection with V13, as a haplogroup with a seemingly very similar distribution and pre-history.[2][4][11] (There is no consensus regarding the circumstances or timing of its evolution.)
Cruciani et al. (2007) says there were at least four major demographic events which have been envisioned for this geographic area:
The "post-Last Glacial Maximum expansion (about 20 kya)"
The "Younger Dryas-Holocene reexpansion (about 12 kya)"
The "population growth associated with the introduction of agricultural practices (about 8 kya)"
The "development of Bronze technology (about 5kya)"
The last two seem within the timespan possible for V13 given its STR age of arise putatively in the Middle East. In favor of the agricultural connection, human remains excavated in a Spanish funeral cave dating from approximately 7000 years ago were shown to be in this haplogroup.[22]
However, earlier entry into Europe is also possible. Battaglia et al. (2008), for example, propose that the E-M78* lineage ancestral to all modern E-V13 men moved rapidly out of a Southern Egyptian homeland, in the wetter conditions of the early Holocene; arrived in the Balkans with only Mesolithic technologies and then only subsequently integrated with Neolithic cultures which arrived later in the Balkans.
E-V13 is in any case often described in population genetics as one of the components of the European genetic composition which shows a relatively recent link of populations from the Middle East, entering Europe and presumably associated with bringing new technologies.[23][24][25] As such, it is also sometimes remarked that it is a relatively recent genetic movement out of Africa into Eurasia, and has been described as "a signal for a separate late-Pleistocene migration from Africa to Europe over the Sinai ... which is not manifested in mtDNA haplogroup distributions".[26]
After its initial entry in Europe, there was then a dispersal from the Balkans into the rest of Europe. Also for this movement, a wide range of possibilities exists. Battaglia et al. (2008) suggest that the E-V13 sub-clade of E-M78 originated in situ in Europe, and propose that the first major dispersal of E-V13 from the Balkans may have been in the direction of the Adriatic Sea with the Neolithic Impressed Ware culture often referred to as Impressa or Cardial. The above mentioned find of archaic E-V13 in Spain supports this suggestion.
In contrast, Cruciani et al. (2007) suggest that the movement out of the Balkans may have been more recent than 5300 years ago. The authors suggest that for the most part, modern E-V13 descends from a population which remained in the Balkans until the Balkan Bronze age. They consider that "the dispersion of the E-V13 and J-M12 haplogroups seems to have mainly followed the river waterways connecting the southern Balkans to north-central Europe". Peričic et al. (2005) propose the Vardar-Morava-Danube rivers as a possible route of Neolithic dispersal into central Europe. Bird (2007) proposes a still more recent dispersal out of the Balkans, around the time of the Roman empire.
In contrast, another major discovery relevant to the study of E-V13 origins was the announcement in Lacan et al. (2011) that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in a Spanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens tested from the same site were in haplogroup G2a, which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using 7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not the modern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recent events, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried by early farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Western Mediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age.

John123
24-01-14, 00:43
1. Frequency spread from Balkans (20%) to Western Europe (2%).
2.Common in Balkans and some parts of Italy (particularly the south, but not exclusively).
3.Phylogenetic analysis have suggested to some researchers that these lineages have spread through Europe, from the Balkans in a "rapid demographic expansion"
4. " Before then, the SNP mutation, V13 apparently first arose in WEST ASIA around 10 thousand years ago, and although not widespread there, it is for example found in high levels (>10% of the male population) in Turkish Cypriot and Druze Arab lineages."
5. "Druze E-V13 clustered together with most E-V12 and E-V22, and not with European E-V13, which was mostly in the alpha cluster"
6. The distribution and diversity of V13 are often thought to represent the introduction of early farming technologies, during the Neolithic expansion, into Europe by way of the Balkans.

Basically, E-V13 may have entered Europe 5,000 years ago or it may have entered Europe far earlier, say, 10,000 years ago during the Neolithic. Either way, it originated towards Western Asia and spread from the eastern Mediterranean, to the western Mediterranean. Why it is so rare in western Mediterranean today in that case, is a mystery. What is known is that the Greeks spread it to italy and we can still find very high E-V13 levels (worlds highest) in that general region of the Balkans today.

John123
24-01-14, 00:50
Druze Arabs and Turkish Cypriots have 11% E-V13, and it's diversity is such that it clusters with E-V12/E-V22 types. Central anatolians have 5% E-V13 as well. E-V13 simply isn't present in Africa, other than in minuscule trace frequencies in the north (1% in Egyptians and Berbers, 2-3% in Morrocan and Libyan Jews). It is present as far north as Hungary, Ukraine (9%) and Slovakia (8%) because men from the Balkans spread it there.

John123
24-01-14, 01:00
E-V13 frequencies: 44% of Kosovar Albanians, 35% of Greeks from desktop/dimini, 35% of Greeks from Lerna/Franchthi, 32% of Albanians, 30% of Macedonian Aromuns, 19% of Serbs, 18% of Greeks nationally, 17% of Macedonians proper, 16% of Bulgarians and Greeks from the Aegean islands, 14% of Greeks from Nea Nikomedia, 11% of Druze Arabs and Turkish Cypriots, 9% of Hungarians, Ukrainians and southern Italians, 7% of Sicilians; one can't deny a frequency gradient peaking in the Balkans. Obviously, if an E-V13 sample was found in Spain.....it must have arrived there via southeastern Europe. How did it end up in Spain 7000 years ago? I don't know, but it must have expanded from the southern Balkans earlier than we thought.

LeBrok
24-01-14, 01:04
E-V13 peaks in southern italy and on the Ligurian coast where Greeks are also attested to have settled. E-V13 in Italy is largely associated with Ancient Greek presence. Also, E-V13 IS known to have had it's first European presence in the Balkans. You say that surely Greek culture hadn't started 7,000 years ago, but the first Neolithic farmers of Crete were present 9,000 years ago. What does the Bulgarian distribution of E-V13 not being coastal even matter? E-V13 was present in the south-central Balkans; are you saying Bulgaria isn't in the Balkans? There's more E-V13 in Hungary than turkey, so you're saying E-V13 descended from the north? E-V13 was either spread around the Mediterranean by people from the southern Balkans more recently (such as Greeks), or it is a product of the earlier Neolithic period. Why there is an E-V13 sample from Spain dating to 7,000 years ago, personally, I do not know.


E3b in Italy peaks in the toe of Calabria (27%), Basilicata (as high as 25-36%) and Apulia (20-25%). It's also found in the Campobasso region (25%) and the Ligurian region of Genoa (25%). It is found sporadically in the Veneto region. This perfectly matches a spread via Greek colonization. Now, in what concerns the 7,000 year old Spanish sample, it is an outlier, and it deffinetly puts the whole "Greek spread only" theory at risk, shooting us all the way back to the Neolithic spread theory as a possibility again.
I have know idea how can you doubt it. First farmers settled in Balkans and this is where we have hot spots, then they've spread throughout Europe, and look at the map to confirm it (V13 covers all Europe). This map doesn't pertain to Greek Civilization, instead it shows you basically all farmlands of Europe.
Even if V13 didn't came with first farmers, but a bit later, it's spread along existing farming communities.
The only relationship of V13 with Greek civilization is that the civilization happened in heavily populated by V13 land of Balkans. However, the main spread of V13 was already done long ago.

You are making the same mistake as RHAS correlating Roman Empire to spread of J2 people. He did some research recently and already corrected it and extended to Greek, Phoenicians and Mesopotamians. I'm awaiting further corrections of his timeline of J2. Just because we don't know much about prehistory it doesn't mean things were not happening back then.

John123
24-01-14, 01:07
If it originated in west Asia 10,000 years ago (or the Balkans) via diversity being highest (apparently) in Turkish Cypriots/Druze Arabs, and the highest frequencies today are in the southern Balkans, are you going to tell me it progressively expanded from Spain towards the east? All I can say really is wow; Those farmers sure spread it to Spain real fast!

John123
24-01-14, 01:09
False! I'm correlating E-V13 with the Neolithic Balkans; it was ALSO later spread by Greeks across the east-central Mediterranean world! : ) Also, I would NEVER correlate the spread of J2 with the Roman Empire as J2 was a Neolithic signal from west Asia (arriving via turkey as well) towards southeastern Europe. But, once more, the Greeks helped spread J2 as well, just as the Etruscans of turkey and the Phoenicians of Lebanon did (although I don't think J2 was the only marker spread by the Phoenicians; I think they spread T as well.)

LeBrok
24-01-14, 01:11
1. Frequency spread from Balkans (20%) to Western Europe (2%).
2.Common in Balkans and some parts of Italy (particularly the south, but not exclusively).
3.Phylogenetic analysis have suggested to some researchers that these lineages have spread through Europe, from the Balkans in a "rapid demographic expansion"
4. " Before then, the SNP mutation, V13 apparently first arose in WEST ASIA around 10 thousand years ago, and although not widespread there, it is for example found in high levels (>10% of the male population) in Turkish Cypriot and Druze Arab lineages."
5. "Druze E-V13 clustered together with most E-V12 and E-V22, and not with European E-V13, which was mostly in the alpha cluster"
6. The distribution and diversity of V13 are often thought to represent the introduction of early farming technologies, during the Neolithic expansion, into Europe by way of the Balkans.

Basically, E-V13 may have entered Europe 5,000 years ago or it may have entered Europe far earlier, say, 10,000 years ago during the Neolithic. Either way, it originated towards Western Asia and spread from the eastern Mediterranean to the western Mediterranean. Why it is so rare in western Mediterranean today in that case, is a mystery. Either way, the Greeks spread it to italy and we can still find very high E-V13 levels (worlds highest) in that general region of the Balkans today.
For god sake, can you decide? The first statement says it was already in Italy and rest of Europe in Neolithic!!!
With second statement you are still beating the dead horse.
Do you have multiple personality?

John123
24-01-14, 01:24
It could be either one; I don't know which one it is, I stated that above. Either way, what IS known, is that it originated and expanded from southeastern Europe. Was it 5000 years ago, or 10000 years ago? As of now, it seems we can't tell.

John123
24-01-14, 01:26
It could even be both.

LeBrok
24-01-14, 01:39
It could be either one; I don't know which one it is, I stated that above. Either way, what IS known, is that it originated and expanded from southeastern Europe. Was it 5000 years ago, or 10000 years ago? As of now, it seems we can't tell.
So were you lying when you said this?

False! I'm correlating E-V13 with the Neolithic Balkans;

John123
24-01-14, 01:58
"It could be either one; I don't know which one it is, I stated that above. Either way, what IS known, is that it originated and expanded from southeastern Europe. Was it 5000 years ago, or 10000 years ago? As of now, it seems we can't tell."

It could be either one, what are you, a detective? LOL! What part of that didn't you understand? It could be either Neolithic or Greek, or it could even be BOTH. Either way, E-V13 expanded from the southeastern Balkans, it arrived there, during the NEOLITHIC. Do YOU know precisely when it arrived from the Balkans and spread to italy? I don't know who brought it to Spain either.

this is my original post by the way, you keep twisting it up; Atleast take the full quote:

"False! I'm correlating E-V13 with the Neolithic Balkans; it was ALSO later spread by Greeks across the east-central Mediterranean world! : )"

Aberdeen
24-01-14, 02:39
For god sake, can you decide? The first statement says it was already in Italy and rest of Europe in Neolithic!!!
With second statement you are still beating the dead horse.
Do you have multiple personality?

Of course he has multiple personalities. That's why he has two names. Although his adamo personality doesn't visit us much anymore. LOL.

John123
24-01-14, 02:56
What a fool you are LOL! My main account was blocked by one of the more active administrators; either Maciamo or Lebrok. Lebrok even admitted to me that it was blocked because I was "making too many one-line posts". I'm not the type to think so, but then again, when I add that on top of what is written in "post" # 41, it makes me wonder wether or not Lebrok has a hidden agenda XD!!!!!! It's kind of hard not to.

Ike
24-01-14, 02:59
It could be that E-V13 entered Europe through Balkans some ~8kya. The spread up north with the Danube into central Europe, across Pannonian plains to the east. The end of part one.

At one moment couple of thousands years after, IE tribes came from Somewhere, and some of them learned a new modern language and started calling themselves Greeks. So the Greeks spread E-V13 into Italy, and further.
At one moment Bulgars descended and mixed with E-V13 from Thracia. At one moment some of them mixed with some other of them and started calling themselves Albanians.
At one moment Western Slavs descended to Balkans, and also assimilated E-V13.

God knows which one is right....

bicicleur
25-01-14, 22:53
looking at all these comments I conclude that very little is known about how and when E-V13 came to Europe.

the only certainty we have is the ancient 7000 yo DNA in Catalunia along with Neolithic (Cardium poettery) G.
that is not a E-V13 hotspot today

Sile
26-01-14, 20:11
E subclades

http://i023.radikal.ru/1207/f3/e562f5c5cc1d.jpg

L0lec
18-02-14, 04:28
I think that will help a lot if you consider that many Albanians migrated to Greece during the 13th and 16th century en(dot)wikipedia(dot)org/wiki/Arvanites. So you cannot assume safely that E - V13 had spread during the Greek colonization.
As for the main topic of the disscusion, no one knows for sure. There would be great help if we knew more about the "Sea peple".

khufu
19-02-14, 07:51
L618+ v13- in anatolia

ukaj
26-02-14, 11:47
E3b in Italy peaks in the toe of Calabria (27%), Basilicata (as high as 25-36%) and Apulia (20-25%). It's also found in the Campobasso region (25%) and the Ligurian region of Genoa (25%). It is found sporadically in the Veneto region. This perfectly matches a spread via Greek colonization. Now, in what concerns the 7,000 year old Spanish sample, it is an outlier, and it deffinetly puts the whole "Greek spread only" theory at risk, shooting us all the way back to the Neolithic spread theory as a possibility again.John have you heard of abreshes?the arbreshe were given alot of land in calabria infact jhon their is a big comunnity in calabria whom are abreshe albanians,,who left their in 13ctry...just saying

noUseForAname
26-08-14, 19:16
how can they be slaves when E1b1b is 42,000 years BC?....

noUseForAname
26-08-14, 19:23
E-V13 is 10,000 years BC already in south east Europe, and also E1b1b already there 42,000 years ago.

you already said first balkan civilization is 7,000 years BC, so E-V13 are slaves of WHOM Exactly?

zulkif
04-09-14, 18:43
Central anatolians have 5% E-V13 as well.

John, where did you get this data from?
From what I know it is 1-2% in Anatolia.
Above 5% in the western coasts though.

Besa
19-03-15, 21:09
you seem pretty sure

how do you know that ?

It's more of a credible theory that EV-13 was spready by ancient greeks. Because if EV-13 carriers came as slaves that means half of balkan population are descendants of slaves? or are my measures wrong? And how was EV-13 spread across the balkans?

Besides, it's very well known the first inhabitants of the balkans might of come from North-Africa, carrying haplogroup E, the Pelasgians. And then came J2 probably through Anatolia.

Besa
19-03-15, 22:23
John, where did you get this data from?
From what I know it is 1-2% in Anatolia.
Above 5% in the western coasts though.

That comes from balkan immigration to anatolia. millions live there of balkan origin

blevins13
20-10-16, 00:00
Greek were most influential around Mediterranean Sea from 3,000-2,000 years ago. That's 4,000 years of discrepancy between Greeks and E-V13!!!

1. Where do you propose E-V13 was hiding for 4,000 years?
2. Why do you think the E-V13 couldn't spread around Europe for this 4 thousand years prior to Greek Civilisation? a)Where they invalids? b) European Continent didn't exist?
3. How do you explain presence of V13 in Northern Europe at 5% or even Central Europe in 10%? Clue: There are no known migrations or invasions of Greeks to Northern Europe in last 3,000, for the entire duration of Greek culture! Actually, all known migrations came from North or East mainly, and with people lacking V13, so it means that level of V13 was much higher through Europe before antiquity, let's say in late Neolithic.
4. Are there known records of Greeks settling in Kosovo and North Albania, the epicenter of V13? Maybe ancient Greeks came from Kosovo?
5. Who introduced E-V13 to Geeks 7kya? I'm sure you're not saying that Greek Culture is 7,000 years old.
6. Why there is so little V13 in Anatolia? Less in Anatolia than in Hungary. Was Hungary a Greek colony?
7. Spain doesn't match greek colonies
8. Italy's V13 is rather consistent all over. It should be much higher in south where Grecia Magna was, shouldn't it?
9. Bulgarian distribution of V13 doesn't match greek coastal presence either.


http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif

Can you explain these questions in Greek Civilization framework?

PS. Greek Civilization was rich in E-V13, they surely did spread some of it around conquered land. It doesn't mean they are responsible for any substantial amount of it around the sea, otherwise V13 map would resemble geek colonies pattern but it isn't.
http://www.utexas.edu/courses/greeksahoy!/greek_colonies_550.jpg

Very thorough analysis, It seem that more research i required.


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