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RHAS
19-01-14, 23:39
Haplgroup J2, Greeks and Phoenicians.

"The ancient Greeks and Phoenicians were the main driving forces behind the spread of J2 around the western and southern Mediterranian."
Eupedia.com, 2013.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml

https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/t1/539463_496317803759713_282752127_n.jpg

"Thus the most likely explanation is the emergence of J2f1 in the Aegean area, possibly during the population expansion phase also detected by Malaspina et al. (2001), and coincident with the expansion of the Greek world up to the European coast of the Black sea."
Phylogeography of Y Chromosomal haplogroups as reporters of Neolithic and post-Neolithic population processes in the Mediterranean area.
http://arheologija.ff.uni-lj.si/documenta/pdf35/novelletto35.pdf (http://arheologija.ff.uni-lj.si/documenta/pdf35/novelletto35.pdf)


https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1/76080_496849587039868_855898377_n.jpg

RHAS
19-01-14, 23:44
Haplogroup J2 and Mesopotamians.

"J-M172 can be classified as Greco-Anatolian, Mesopotamian and/or Caucasian and is linked to the earliest indigenous populations of Anatolia. It was carried by Bronze Age immigrants to Europe, and ultimately descends from the Cro-Magnon population (IJ-M429 Y-DNA) that emerged in Southwest Asia around 35,000 years ago."
Wikipedia.org - Haplogroup J2 M172.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172_(Y-DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172_(Y-DNA))

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/t1/184359_496844723707021_1899234460_n.jpg

"Sumer (from Akkadian Šumeru; Sumerian ki-en-ĝir, approximately "land of the civilized kings" or "native land" was an ancient civilization and historical region in southern Mesopotamia, modern Iraq, during the Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age. Although the earliest historical records in the region do not go back much further than c. 2900 BC, modern historians have asserted that Sumer was first permanently settled between c. 4500 and 4000 BC by a non-Semitic people who may or may not have spoken the Sumerian language (pointing to the names of cities, rivers, basic occupations, etc. as evidence). These conjectured, prehistoric people are now called "proto-Euphrateans" or "Ubaidians", and are theorized to have evolved from the Samarra culture of northern Mesopotamia (Assyria)."
Sumer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyX_MkqRvg4

RHAS
20-01-14, 00:00
Haplogroup J2 and Greeks.

"It has been proposed that haplogroup subclade J-M410 was linked to populations on ancient Crete by examining the relationship between Anatolian, Cretan, and Greek populations from around early Neolithic sites in Crete."
Wikipedia.org - Haplogroup J2 M172.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172_(Y-DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172_(Y-DNA))


https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1467256_643694045688754_1642300461_n.jpg

"The Greeks, also known as the Hellenes (Greek: Έλληνες [ˈelines]), are an ethnic group native to Greece, Cyprus, Anatolia and other regions. They also form a significant diaspora, with Greek communities established around the world. Greek colonies and communities have been historically established in most corners of the Mediterranean, but Greeks have always been centered around the Aegean Sea, where the Greek language has been spoken since antiquity. Until the early 20th century, Greeks were uniformly distributed between the Greek peninsula, the western coast of Asia Minor, Pontus, Egypt, Cyprus and Constantinople; many of these regions coincided to a large extent with the borders of the Byzantine Empire of the late 11th century and the Eastern Mediterranean areas of the ancient Greek colonization."
Greeks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks

"The UEP diversity within J2 is lower in the Middle East compared to both Turkey and the European locations. In conclusion, the UEP diversity of J in Turkey and southern Europe does not seem to be a simple subset of that present in the area where this hapologroup first originated. This finding, also confirmed in the data by Semino et al. (2004), points to Turkey and the Aegean as a relevant source for the J diversity observed throughout Europe."
Phylogeography of Y Chromosomal haplogroups as reporters of Neolithic and post-Neolithic population processes in the Mediterranean area.
http://arheologija.ff.uni-lj.si/documenta/pdf35/novelletto35.pdf (http://arheologija.ff.uni-lj.si/documenta/pdf35/novelletto35.pdf)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uniGvuthJxA

RHAS
20-01-14, 00:16
Haplogroup J2 Phoenicians and Greeks.

"The Neolithic control section shows nonsignificant results across all haplogroups, except for a significant J2 result in one test. The Phoenician-colony test results highlight only one haplogroup, J2, which consistently scores significantly in all three tests across the range of colonization sites. However, this haplogroup also scores significantly in Greek tests (as do some additional haplogroup...s), suggesting that the same haplogroup could have been spread by several expansions, which is unsurprising considering its frequency in the Eastern Mediterranean but implies that higher phylogenetic resolution is required for identification of Phoenician-specific signals."
Identifying Genetic Traces of Historical Expansions: Phoenician Footprints in the Mediterranean.
http://www.cell.com/AJHG/fulltext/S0002-9297(08)00547-8

https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1/1510376_666331360091689_2070684644_n.jpg

RHAS
20-01-14, 01:19
Haplogroup J2 and Phoenicians.

"In 2004, two geneticists educated at Harvard University and leading scientists of the National Geographic Genographic Project, Dr. Pierre Zalloua and Dr. Spencer Wells, identified "the haplogroup of the Phoenicians" as haplogroup J2, with avenues open for future research."
Familypedia.com - Phoenicia.
http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Phoenicia

"The authors found a weak – but significant – genetic signature among their samples that could not be explained by chance. Many of the samples belonged to a very specific branch of haplogroup J2, which the authors believe points back to distinct migrations by Phoenician traders from the Middle East into Europe and North Africa more than 3,000 years ago."
Ripples in the Mediterranean: Tracing the Genetic Origins of the Phoenicians.
http://blog.23andme.com/ancestry/ripples-in-the-mediterranean-tracing-the-genetic-origins-of-the-phoenicians/

https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/552866_519566144768212_920425770_n.jpg

"Tyrian purple (Greek, πορφύρα, porphyra, Latin: purpura), also known as royal purple, imperial purple or imperial dye, is a reddish-purple natural dye, which is a secretion produced by a certain species of predatory sea snails in the family Muricidae, a type of rock snail by the name Murex. This dye was possibly first used by the ancient Phoenicians as early as 1570 BC. The dye was greatly prized in antiquity because the colour did not easily fade, but instead became brighter with weathering and sunlight. Tyrian purple was expensive: the 4th-century-BC historian Theopompus reported, "Purple for dyes fetched its weight in silver at Colophon" in Asia Minor. The expense meant that purple-dyed textiles became status symbols, and early sumptuary laws restricted their uses. The production of Tyrian purple was tightly controlled in Byzantium and was subsidized by the imperial court, which restricted its use for the colouring of imperial silks, so that a child born to a reigning emperor was porphyrogenitos, "born in the purple", although this term may also refer to the fact that the imperial birthing apartment was walled in the purple-red rock known as porphyry."
Tyrian Purple.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrian_purple

http://altaeeblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Phoenician.jpg

https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/11087_496317297093097_2027828163_n.jpg

RHAS
20-01-14, 01:41
Haplogroup J2 and Mesopotamians.

"While noting that multiple haplogroups are likely involved in the spread of languages through the middle east, Dr. King noted a correlation between very old Middle Eastern languages of uncertain origin and Haplogroup J2 while at the same time theorizing that Haplogroup J1 may have been involved in spreading Semitic languages through the region. These old languages possibly linked to J2 are known to have existed in Mesopotamia and the Northern Levant and this substratum is sometimes referred to as "Banana" languages due to their syllabic duplication."
M172 Blog - Neolithic Migrations in the Near East and Aegean, 2009.
http://m172.blogspot.nl/2009/07/neolithic-migrations-in-near-east-and.html (http://m172.blogspot.nl/2009/07/neolithic-migrations-in-near-east-and.html)

"Proto-Euphratean was considered by some Assyriologists (for example Samuel Noah Kramer), to be the substratum language of the people that introduced farming into Southern Iraq in the Early Ubaid period (5300-4700 BC). Benno Landsberger and other Assyriologists argued that by examining the structure of Sumerian names of occupations, as well as toponyms and hydronyms, one can suggest that there was once an earlier group of people in the region who spoke an entirely different language, often referred to as Proto-Euphratean. Terms for "farmer", "smith", "carpenter", and "date" (as in the fruit), also do not appear to have a Sumerian or Semitic origin. Post-Soviet linguists coined a different term, "banana languages," proposed by Igor Dyakonov and Vladislav Ardzinba, based on a characteristic feature of multiple personal names attested in Sumerian texts, namely reduplication of syllables (like in the word banana): Inanna, Zababa, Chuwawa, Bunene etc. The same feature was attested in some other unclassified Oriental languages, including Minoan language."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Euphratean_language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Euphratean_language)

https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/69512_496315390426621_1936780404_n.jpg (Image: Inanna)

https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/285311_496332007091626_1520032559_n.jpg (Image: Asassara)

RHAS
20-01-14, 02:00
Haplogroup J2 Sicily and Greeks. (Geographical map of Sicilian DNA Samples.)

"Haplogroups common both to the European and Eurasian populations are present in Sicily. The most represented are R1b1c-M269 (24.58%), J2-M172 (15.25%) and E3b1a-M78 (11.44%). The co-occurrence of the Berber E3b1b-M81 (2.12%) and of the Mid-Eastern J1-M267 (3.81%) Hgs together with the presence of E3b1a1-V12, E3b1a3-V22, E3b1a4-V65 (5.5%) support the hypo...thesis of intrusion of North African genes."
Differential Greek and northern African migrations to Sicily are supported by genetic evidence from the Y chromosome.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/

"Sicily has one of the highest frequencies of Haplogroup J2 (M172) in the mediterranean. J2-M172 made up 33% of the Y chromosome signatures on the island and was non-randomly distributed occurring at higher frequencies in the eastern areas of the island. This distinction was evident in the subclades, M67 and M92, which have previously been linked to Greek and proto-greek colonization. Both M67 and M92 were twice as frequent on the eastern portion of Sicily which displays more archaelogical traces from the Greek classic era. Even the paragroup of undistinguished J2 haplotypes (M172) was more than twice as frequent in Eastern Sicily."
M172 Blog - Y Chromosomes of Sicily, 2008.
http://m172.blogspot.nl/2008/11/y-chromosomes-of-sicily.html

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/183188_532665996791560_1394287491_n.jpg

(Image: The geographical map of the nine Sicilian samples is shown. Their latitude (N), longitude (E) and sample size are: (1) Trapani (TP) 38°07′, 12°07′, 33; (2) Mazara del Vallo (MZ) 37°65′, 12°58′, 18; (3) Santa Ninfa (SN) 37°77′, 12°88′, 31; (4) Alcamo (AL) 37°97′, 12°97′, 24; (5) Caccamo (CA) 37°93′, 13°07′, 16; (6) Sciacca (SC) 37°05′, 13°07′, 28; (7) Piazza Armerina (PZ) 37°38′, 14°37′, 28; (8) Troina (TR) 37°78′, 14°60′, 30; (9) Ragusa (RG) 36°93′, 14°75′, 28. The histogram plots the frequencies of the main haplogroups in the eastern and the western sides of the island.)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWtDzafUxa4

RHAS
20-01-14, 02:25
"Attempts to ascertain Sicilian "ethnic" origins should be undertaken with caution because haplogroups do not correspond precisely to medieval or modern conceptions of nationality. At best, they are approximate. For example, J2 is identified with Greeks but also with some Germans. Speaking very broadly, the most frequent Y haplogroups of the world's most conquered island may be correlated most probably (albeit imprecisely) to the following peoples: • J2 - Greeks, Romans, Jews, Spaniards,"
Best of Sicily - Genetics.
http://www.bestofsicily.com/genetics.htm

"Sicily is an island which had well-documented and not insignificant settlements by both Greeks and Phoenicians. Moreover, these settlements were geographically divided: Greeks in the East, Phoenicians in the West. It is in the East that J2 has its highest frequency, and not in the Phoenician West."
Dienekes Anthropology Blog, 2008.
http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2008/10/phoenician-y-chromosomes.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2008/10/phoenician-y-chromosomes.html)


https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/1235530_621418664582959_1325191331_n.jpg

RHAS
20-01-14, 02:38
Haplogroup J2 and Greeks.

Greco-Roman spheres of influence.

https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1/1379310_623171751074317_1544350417_n.jpg
(Left: The geographic space over which Classical Greek and Latin served as a lingua franca in antiquity. Right: Y-DNA Haplogroup Frequency map of J2-M172.)

"Romans surely helped spread haplogroup J2 across its borders, judging from the distribution of J2 within Europe (frequency over 5%) wich bears an uncanny resemblance to the borders of the Roman Empire."
Eupedia.com, 2013.

"The propagation of J2b and E V-13 correspond roughly to the ancient Greek and Roman spheres of influence."
Eupedia.com, 2013.

"The ancient Greeks and Phoenicians were the main driving forces behind the spread of J2 around the western and southern Mediterranian"
Eupedia.com, 2013.

"Di Giacomo stressed the role of post-Neolithic migratory phenomenon, specifically that of the Ancient Greeks, as also being important in the dispersal of haplogroup J-M172."
Wikipedia.org - Haplogroup J2-M172, 2013.

RHAS
20-01-14, 02:42
Haplogroup J2 and Greeks.

https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1/58882_497199087004918_1278845090_n.jpg
Empire of Alexander the Great, 323 B.C.

"Both E-V13 and J-M12 have also been used in studies seeking to find evidence of a remaining Greek presence in Afghanistan and Pakistan, going back to the time of Alexander the Great."
Wikipedia.org - Haplogroup E V-68.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68_(Y-DNA)

"The Saluja’s have been a dynamic and mobile group of business people and professionals from North India. They hail from the region north of the river Jhelum, that divides the Jhelum & Gujrat districts, an area along the Salt mines (now in Pakistan). Historical records indicate that Alexander the Great of Macedonia came to India (326 B.C) crossing the Khyber Pass to Taxila near Rawalpindi. Alexander advanced to the northwest bank of the river Jhelum to the village of Haranpur, where allegedly the Macedonians set up their base camp prior to the battle with King Porus. It is quite conceivable that people from that area of North India particularly Haranpur, Jalalpur & surroundings to have Genes of people from Greece. In fact, DNA Analysis suggests that Saluja’s belong to the DNA Haplogroup J2b, which has its origin in Greece. J2b (M12, M314, M221, M102), and is mainly found in the Balkans, Greece, Italy, and India (possibly from Neolithic Greeks)*****J2b1 (M205) - formerly J2b1b. The Saluja family history can be traced directly to this historical melting pot."
Migration of Indians Across Continents spanning generations: A Case History of the Saluja Family.
http://www.amazon.com/Migration-Indians-Continents-spanning-generations/dp/0615469035 (http://www.amazon.com/Migration-Indians-Continents-spanning-generations/dp/0615469035)

"J2a is also present in Egypt which was conquered by Macedonian Greeks, as well as Iran, but drops to a small frequency in India, and is there limited to the upper castes. This may reflect its presence in the ancient Indo-Aryans and its survival in the Brahmin caste, or alternatively may be the result of intermarriage between the Bactrian Greek aristocracy and high-class Hindus"
Dienekes Anthropology Blog, 2005.
http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2005/12/did-haplogroup-j2a1-originate-in.html

"In which country did Mr. J2b2 live? Did Mr. J2b2 live in the Balkans and then his descendants move to India. Or was was it that Mr. J2b2 lived in India and then his descendants moved to the Balkans. One of the theories is that Mr. J2b2's descendant were part of Alexander the Greats army which made itself all the way to India."
Barr-Kumarakulasinghe’s and other families.
http://barrkumar.com/dna/whats_j2b2.html (http://barrkumar.com/dna/whats_j2b2.html)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7fZHDTF9kE

RHAS
20-01-14, 03:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx3TYjoCN5w

Sile
20-01-14, 10:56
Haplgroup J2, Greeks and Phoenicians.

"The ancient Greeks and Phoenicians were the main driving forces behind the spread of J2 around the western and southern Mediterranian."
Eupedia.com, 2013.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml

https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/t1/539463_496317803759713_282752127_n.jpg

"Thus the most likely explanation is the emergence of J2f1 in the Aegean area, possibly during the population expansion phase also detected by Malaspina et al. (2001), and coincident with the expansion of the Greek world up to the European coast of the Black sea."
Phylogeography of Y Chromosomal haplogroups as reporters of Neolithic and post-Neolithic population processes in the Mediterranean area.
http://arheologija.ff.uni-lj.si/documenta/pdf35/novelletto35.pdf (http://arheologija.ff.uni-lj.si/documenta/pdf35/novelletto35.pdf)


https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1/76080_496849587039868_855898377_n.jpg

@ adamo

this is a part of you and maybe me...........as T , following J2

as per Albanians........my relatives where taught that albanians where a mix of dorians from greek cyrene ,( as they say a Macedonia of people , which means a mixed fruit desert).........then again school teach you what the governments WANT to teach you, be it true or sometimes distorted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_%28food%29

Bardhyl
20-01-14, 11:41
Judging based on dna italy is a mixed of fruit with a cherry on top

Angela
20-01-14, 17:50
Judging based on dna italy is a mixed of fruit with a cherry on top


Contrary to expectations, a remarkably stable mixture for at least the last 2500 years or so if the research in Ralph and Coop et al, 2013 holds up. Only the populations of the Iberian peninsula and France seem to have been similarly relatively unaffected by the migrations after the fall of Rome.
http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1001555

Even the Saracen invasions of southern Italy would appear to have had only a minimal effect, although given the source of the Ralph and Coop data, the results might change a bit with broader sampling.

That's not to deny its internal diversity, of course, a diversity which falls along a south/north cline, or, if Boattini et al are correct, a southeast to northwest cline.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441

Also, there seems to be more homogeneity in southern Italy than there is in the north, which I think is probably in part attributable to the political divisions there since the fall of the empire, with the south, on the other hand, being ruled for long periods of time as a unit that roughly correlates to the territory of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies. At least that seems to be the case from autosomal results, including those from 23andme,

As to the y dna specifically, the more studies that are done, in Italy as elsewhere, the clearer it seems to me that the modern distribution of the y haplogroups, especially for countries like Italy, that have been at the crossroads of European history, is only imperfectly a guide to the autosomal composition of the people in any given area.

Nobody1
20-01-14, 18:49
Judging based on dna italy is a mixed of fruit with a cherry on top

Judging based on DNA there is no such thing as an/one Italy;
Only a North, a Tuscan/Central, a South/Sicily and a Sardinia;
All distinctive and specific to each other; Acc to the PCA from Lazaridis et al 2013 Albanians and Tuscans are rather close;


Also, there seems to be more homogeneity in southern Italy than there is in the north, which I think is probably in part attributable to the political divisions there since the fall of the empire, with the south, on the other hand, being ruled for long periods of time as a unit that roughly correlates to the territory of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies. At least that seems to be the case from autosomal results, including those from 23andme,

I noticed that to;
But i think the diversity (to each other) within North Italy is due to the pre-Roman era;
Two separate stocks of Indo-Europeans (Umbrians/Veneti) and two separate stocks of pre-Indo-Europeans (Ligures/Raeti) - whereas the south was uniformly Pelasgian (Oenotrian) with Umbrian (Sabine) incursions;

Angela
20-01-14, 19:32
Judging based on DNA there is no such thing as an/one Italy;
Only a North, a Tuscan/Central, a South/Sicily and a Sardinia;
All distinctive and specific to each other;



I noticed that to;
But i think the diversity (to each other) within North Italy is due to the pre-Roman era;
Two separate stocks of Indo-Europeans (Umbrians/Veneti) and two separate stocks of pre-Indo-Europeans (Ligures/Raeti) - whereas the south was uniformly Pelasgian (Oenotrian) with Umbrian (Sabine) incursions;

Yet all of us cluster together (except the Sardinians perhaps) and apart from other ethnic groups on any PCA I've ever seen, European or global, owing in no small part, I believe, to the high population density created during the Neolithic and maintained since then, and the isolation imposed by the Alps and to a lesser extent by the Mediterranean.

As for the forces that created the cline in Italy and the relative diversity of the area north of Rome versus that south of Rome, I certainly think that pre-historical as well as historical processes influenced the outcome. If I understand you correctly, I don't necessarily agree that the Ligures and the Raeti were not "Indo-European" peoples, whatever that turns out to mean, but that's a discussion for another thread perhaps.

Sile
20-01-14, 20:11
Yet all of us cluster together (except the Sardinians perhaps) and apart from other ethnic groups on any PCA I've ever seen, European or global, owing in no small part, I believe, to the high population density created during the Neolithic and maintained since then, and the isolation imposed by the Alps and to a lesser extent by the Mediterranean.

As for the forces that created the cline in Italy and the relative diversity of the area north of Rome versus that south of Rome, I certainly think that pre-historical as well as historical processes influenced the outcome. If I understand you correctly, I don't necessarily agree that the Ligures and the Raeti were not "Indo-European" peoples, whatever that turns out to mean, but that's a discussion for another thread perhaps.

the incline is that J2 as per being part of Greece would influence southern Italy more so than northern Italy, especially since the greeks are practically neighbours.

The old maps in Italian I send you clearly brackets liguri and raeti people together. If they are similar or the same, they would be pre-indo-europeans.

Nobody1
20-01-14, 20:12
Yet all of us cluster together (except the Sardinians perhaps) and apart from other ethnic groups on any PCA I've ever seen, European or global, owing in no small part, I believe, to the high population density created during the Neolithic and maintained since then, and the isolation imposed by the Alps and to a lesser extent by the Mediterranean.

Really?
The PCA plots (like the latest) Lazaridis et al 2013; once again shows the North Italians being one cluster, the Tuscans being one cluster and the Sicilians being one cluster all separated from another - and Sardinians clustering in a world of there own and closest to the Neolithic pops.;

'Stuttgart clusters with other Neolithic Europeans and present-day Sardinians'

But it is true that the Tuscans and North Italians (always) cluster close to each other and closer than to any other pop. (but in the vicinity of South/SouthEast Euro) and that isolation is prob. due to what you already illustrated with Coop & Ralph et al 2013 in post#14;

RHAS
21-01-14, 00:18
Haplogroup J2 and the Spread of the Alphabet. (Greek and Phoenician)

The Abduction of Europa: mosaic, Byblos, 3rd century A.D . National Museum of Beirut Collection. According to the Greek legend Europa’s brother Cadmus went looking for his kidnapped sister who is depicted on the mosaic being whisked away on the back of Zeus disguised as a bull. The story goes that in his search for Europe Cadmos transmitted the Phoenician alphabet to the Hellenes.

https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/577720_510383479019812_1389822478_n.jpg

"Cadmus or Kadmos (Ancient Greek: Κάδμος), in Greek mythology, was a Phoenician prince, the son of king Agenor and queen Telephassa of Tyre and the brother of Phoenix, Cilix and Europa. He was originally sent by his royal parents to seek out and escort his sister Europa back to Tyre after she was abducted from the shores of Phoenicia by Zeus. Cadmus founded the Greek city of Thebes, the acropolis of which was originally named Cadmeia in his honour. Cadmus was credited by the ancient Greeks (Herodotus is an example) with introducing the original Alphabet or Phoenician alphabet -- phoinikeia grammata, "Phoenician letters"—to the Greeks, who adapted it to form their Greek alphabet."
Cadmus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmus

"The authors found a weak – but significant – genetic signature among their samples that could not be explained by chance. Many of the samples belonged to a very specific branch of haplogroup J2, which the authors believe points back to distinct migrations by Phoenician traders from the Middle East into Europe and North Africa more than 3,000 years ago."
Ripples in the Mediterranean: Tracing the Genetic Origins of the Phoenicians.
http://blog.23andme.com/ancestry/rip...e-phoenicians/ (http://blog.23andme.com/ancestry/ripples-in-the-mediterranean-tracing-the-genetic-origins-of-the-phoenicians/)

"The ancient Greeks and Phoenicians were the main driving forces behind the spread of J2 around the western and southern Mediterranian."
Eupedia.com, 2013.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origin...s_europe.shtml (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml)

"In 2004, two geneticists educated at Harvard University and leading scientists of the National Geographic Genographic Project, Dr. Pierre Zalloua and Dr. Spencer Wells, identified "the haplogroup of the Phoenicians" as haplogroup J2, with avenues open for future research."
Familypedia.com - Phoenicia.
http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Phoenicia

"Occurrence of J2-M172 Y-chromosomes in Tuscany has been related to the Etruscan heritage of the region."
Uniparental Markers of Contemporary Italian Population Reveals Details on Its Pre-Roman Heritage.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0050794 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0050794)

"There is a distinct association of ancient J2 civilisations with bull worship."
Eupedia.com, 2011.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

https://sphotos-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/484321_510285402362953_1312221250_n.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_alphabet

"Phoenician became one of the most widely used writing systems, spread by Phoenician merchants across the Mediterranean world, where it was assimilated by many other cultures and evolved."
Phoenician Alphabet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet

"The Greek alphabet was developed by a Greek with first-hand experience of contemporary Phoenician script and, almost as quickly as it was established in the Greek mainland was rapidly re-exported, eastwards to Phrygia, where a similar script was devised, and westwards with Euboean or West Greek traders, where the Etruscans adapted the Greek alphabet to their own language."
History of the Greek Alphabet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...Greek_alphabet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Greek_alphabet)

"The Latin alphabet is the main writing system in use in the Western world and is the most widely used alphabetic writing system in the world. It is the standard script of the English language and is often referred to simply as "the alphabet" in English. It is a true alphabet which originated in the 7th century BC in Italy and has changed continually over the last 2500 years. It has roots in the Semitic alphabet and its offshoot alphabets, the Phoenician, Greek, and Etruscan."
History of the Latin Alphabet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...Latin_alphabet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Latin_alphabet)

https://sphotos-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/156057_510305222360971_1621426644_n.jpg

RHAS
21-01-14, 00:26
"One extraordinary group carried their traditions and their chromosomes into the Mediterranean frontier. Were they the Atlantis superheroes of science fiction? No. They do appear to have been more intellectually and artistically advanced than anyone around them in the same time period. Where they settled, they made an impact. Their descendants survived through the ages with aspects of their original ancient identity largely intact until time and assimilation finally absorbed them -- as Sea Peoples and Temple-Builders, later as Minoans and Etruscans, and still later in the great civilizations of Classical Greece and Rome. Original ancestral families of settlers who make up a bridge into civilization are the people we are identifying as The Mediterraneans."
http://www.ancientmed.org/TheMediterraneans.htm


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDaJLDfdd6Y

RHAS
21-01-14, 00:40
Haplogroup J2 and Greeks.

Contour map of the frequency and variance distribution in Greece of haplogroup J2a-M410.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t1/1017083_556193377772155_1555854598_n.jpg

"Euboea (/juːˈbiːə/; Greek: Εύβοια, Evvia; Ancient Greek: Εὔβοια, Eúboia) is the second largest Greek island in area and population, after Crete. The narrow Euripus Strait separates it from Boeotia in mainland Greece. In general outline it is a long and narrow, seahorse-shaped island; it is about 150 kilometres (93 mi) long, and varies in breadth from 50 kilometres (31 mi) to 6 kilometres (3.7 mi). Its general direction is from northwest to southeast, and it is traversed throughout its length by a mountain range, which forms part of the chain that bounds Thessaly on the east, and is continued south of Euboea in the lofty islands of Andros, Tinos and Mykonos........Like most of the Greek islands, Euboea was originally known under other names in ancient times, such as Macris and Doliche from its shape, Ellopia and Abantis from the tribes inhabiting it."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euboea

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/GR_Evia.png

RHAS
21-01-14, 01:41
Haplogroup J2 and Greeks. (Mycenaeans)

"The majority of the haplogroups (R1a-M17, G2a-P15, I2-M438, J1-M267 and J2b-M102) shows times since expansion which ranges from approximately 4,5Kya to 2,7Kya, compatible with Bronze Age and the development of the Helladic civilizations, more specifically with the spread of Mycenaean culture (Montjoy 1998)."
The Genetic Signature of Neolithic in Greece.
http://amsdottorato.cib.unibo.it/3628/1/Anagnostou_Paolo_tesi.pdf (http://amsdottorato.cib.unibo.it/3628/1/Anagnostou_Paolo_tesi.pdf)

http://historyfacebook.wikispaces.com/file/view/map4gree.jpg/30582615/map4gree.jpg

"Mycenaean Greece was the last phase of the Bronze Age in Ancient Greece (ca. 1600–1100 BC). It takes its name from the archaeological site of Mycenae in Argolis, Peloponnese, southern Greece. Other major sites included Tiryns in Argolis, Pylos in Messenia, Athens in Attica, Thebes and Orchomenus in Boeotia, and Iolkos in Thessaly, while Crete and the site of Knossos also became a part of the Mycenaean world. Mycenaean settlement sites also appeared in Epirus, Macedonia, on islands in the Aegean Sea, on the coast of Asia Minor, the Levant, Cyprus, and Italy."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece

http://www.civilization.ca/cmc/exhibitions/civil/greece/images/gr0003b.jpg
Gold Mycenaean Death Mask


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5VTmNK9o80

RHAS
21-01-14, 02:10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04VPnTIQWNQ

RHAS
21-01-14, 02:15
Haplogroup J2, Greeks and Phoenicians.

"In summary, our data are in agreement with a major discontinuity for the peopling of southern Europe. Here, haplogroup J constitutes not only the signature of a single wave-of-advance from the Levant but, to a greater extent, also of the expansion of the Greek world, with an accompanying novel quota of genetic variation produced during its demographic growth."
Y chromosomal haplogroup J as a signature of the post-neolithic colonization of Europe.
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/HaploJ.pdf (http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/HaploJ.pdf)

"The Minoans and Ancient Greeks very likely played an early role in the frequency and high diversity of L24(M530) haplotypes we see today in Apulia, Italy as found by Grugni et al (2012). Later the Roman armies and auxiliaries played a role. Possibly even the Carthaginians under Hannibal (Battle of Cannae) played a role. Later still the Byzantine Empire, over a period of about 1000 years, very likely played a role in the movement of L24(M530) Y-chromosomes."
J2-L24 Blogspot - More Comments on Grugni et al (2012)
http://the-j2-l24-clade.blogspot.nl/ (http://the-j2-l24-clade.blogspot.nl/)

"Haplogroup J is mostly found in South-East Europe, especially in central and southern Italy, Greece and Romania. It is also common in France, and in the Middle East. It is related to the Ancient Romans, Greeks and Phoenicians (J2), as well as the Arabs and Jews (J1). Subclades J2a and J2a1b1 are found mostly in Greece, Anatolia and southern Italy, and are associated with the Ancient Greeks."
Romanian History and Culture.
http://romanianhistoryandculture.webs.com/modernromaniansydna.htm (http://romanianhistoryandculture.webs.com/modernromaniansydna.htm)

"J2 - This haplogroup originated during the Neolithic in Central Asia, and spread across the Mediterranean and the Middle East. It may have been brought to Britain by prehistoric farmers, Greek or Phoenician traders and Sephardic Jews among the Normans and the Flemish - as well as by Roman troops and settlers."
Elliot (And border receivers) DNA Project.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/ (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/)

"J2 has been well studied and can be split into several clades but whose mode of individual distribution is not well understood. Many influences such as Greek and Roman would have played a part."
Wells Family DNA Project.
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~wellsfam/dnaproje/haplogroupJ.html

"Haplogroup J2 is subdivided into two complementary sub-haplogroups: J2a, defined by the M410 genetic marker, and J2b, defined by the M12 genetic marker. A subclade of haplogroup J2a, defined by the M92 marker has been implicated in the ancient Greek colonization."
Leslie H. Kyle II.
http://kylehistory.x10.mx/dna.htm

John123
21-01-14, 03:33
Yes Sile; agreed. We can see those north-African Phoenician (Carthaginian) colonies from northern Libya all the the way to northwestern coastal Morocco. We can see how western Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica were also once under the dominance, not to mention Madeiras islanders and canary islanders with which I have T1a1a3 matches (and a few Moroccans and an Algerian). We can see that the Phoenicians passed through the egyptian Nile and the Red Sea also passing east Africa's Swahili coast and basically contouring all of Africa (for those Atlantic Ocean island skeptics).

John123
21-01-14, 03:35
The Phoenicians would also have reached bay of biscay at cantabria/Asturias and have attained southernmost England via trading posts.

John123
21-01-14, 03:39
It's weird because most Horn of Africa tribe members say they descend from Quraysh tribe of Saudi Arabia, same for Madagascar tribes, same for many Indian tribes (Hyderabad region) high in T, same for many groups that migrated out of Hejaz to the levant/Syria/Jordan/Iraq region etc. No such stories for Europeans with T, likely a Phoenician or Jewish origin, or due to ancient Neolithic gene flow.

RHAS
21-01-14, 03:55
Haplogroup J2 and Phoenicians. (Carthage)

"J2 is very frequent in the Levant/Anatolia/Iran region and its spread in the Mediterranean is believed to have been facilitated by the maritime trading culture of the Phoenicians (1550 BC- 300 BC)."
Genome-Wide and Paternal Diversity Reveal a Recent Origin of Human Populations in North Africa.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0080293 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0080293)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t1/1511068_676313892426769_1020378620_n.jpg

"Previous Y-chromosome genetic studies of Phoenician colonization have demonstrated that haplogroup J2 frequency was amplified in regions containing the Phoenician colonies of Iberia and North Africa in comparison to areas not containing Phoenician colonies."
The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean.
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69 (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69)

"Quite a few ancient Mediterranean and Middle Eastern civilisations flourished in territories where J2 lineages were preponderant. This is the case of the Hattians, the Hurrians, the Etruscans, the Minoans, the Greeks, the Phoenicians (and their Carthagian offshoot), the Israelites, and to a lower extend extent also the Romans, the Assyrians and the Persians. All great seafaring civilisations from the middle Bronze Age to the Iron Age were dominated by J2 men."
Eupedia.com - Haplogroup J2.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml)

"The Phoenicians, Greeks and Romans all contributed to the presence of J2a in Iberia. The particulary strong frequency of J2a and other Near Eastern haplogroups (J1, E1b1b, T) in the south of the Iberian peninsula, suggest that the Phoenicians and the Carthagians played a more decisive role than other peoples."
Eupedia.com, 2013.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml)

"The Minoans and Ancient Greeks very likely played an early role in the frequency and high diversity of L24(M530) haplotypes we see today in Apulia, Italy as found by Grugni et al (2012). Later the Roman armies and auxiliaries played a role. Possibly even the Carthaginians under Hannibal (Battle of Cannae) played a role. Later still the Byzantine Empire, over a period of about 1000 years, very likely played a role in the movement of L24(M530) Y-chromosomes."
J2-L24 Blogspot - More Comments on Grugni et al (2012)
http://the-j2-l24-clade.blogspot.nl/ (http://the-j2-l24-clade.blogspot.nl/)

"Ancient Carthage (from Phoenician Qart-ḥadašt) was a Semitic civilization centered on the Phoenician city-state of Carthage, located in North Africa on the Gulf of Tunis, outside what is now Tunis, Tunisia. It was founded in 814 BC. Originally a dependency of the Phoenician state of Tyre, Carthage gained independence around 650 BC and established a hegemony over other Phoenician settlements throughout the Mediterranean, North Africa and what is now Spain which lasted until the end of the 3rd century BC. At the height of the city's prominence, it was a major hub of trade with political influence extending over most of the western Mediterranean. For much of its history, Carthage was in a constant state of struggle with the Greeks on Sicily and the Roman Republic, which led to a series of armed conflicts known as the Greek-Punic Wars and Punic Wars. The city also had to deal with the potentially hostile Berbers, the indigenous inhabitants of the entire area where Carthage was built. In 146 BC, after the third and final Punic War, Carthage was destroyed and then occupied by Roman forces. Nearly all of the other Phoenician city-states and former Carthaginian dependencies fell into Roman hands from then on."
Ancient Carthage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthaginian_Republic


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HetYXwtCCho

"The Punics (from Latin pūnicus, pl. pūnici) were a group of western Semitic-speaking peoples from Carthage in North Africa who traced their origins to a group of Phoenician settlers, but also to North African Berbers. Unlike other Phoenicians, Punics had a landowning aristocracy who established a rule of the hinterland in Northern Africa and trans-Sahara traderoutes. In later times one of these clans conquered a Hellenistic-inspired empire in Iberia, possibly having a foothold in western Gaul."
Punics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punics

https://scontent-a-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/426378_502111203180373_646885852_n.jpg
Hannibal, son of Hamilcar Barca (247 – 183/182 BC) was a Punic
Carthaginian military commander, generally considered one of the
greatest military commanders in history.

"The unique colonization pattern of the Phoenicians and the isolation of some of their colonies (Ibiza, Sardinia, Malta) have made it easy to identify their genetic signature. The Phoenician population was already very mixed 3000... years ago : E-V22, J1, J2, J2a4b, J2a4b1, G2a, R1a and R1b1a. E-V22 and R1b1a are quite specific to Levantines (Syrians, Lebanese, Druzes, Jews, Palestinians)."
Eupedia.com - Y-DNA haplogroups of ancient civilizations.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25163-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-ancient-civilizations

RHAS
21-01-14, 04:10
Haplogoup J2 and Maritime Civilisations. (Greeks and Phoenician)

"All great seafaring civilisations from the middle Bronze Age to the Iron Age were dominated by J2 men."
Eupedia.com - Haplogroup J2.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

"When looking at the diffusion of Haplogroup J2a, M410, westward into Europe, one aspect of this westward spread becomes quite clear. M410+ ancestors used a maritime and coastal route to move west."
M172 Blog - Pronou...nced Westward Maritime Diffusion of J2a (M410), 2008.
http://m172.blogspot.nl/2008/10/pronounced-westward-maritime-diffusion.html

"The J2f-M67 clade is localized to Northwest Turkey. It is well known that during this period, Northwest Anatolia developed a complex society that engaged in widespread Aegean trade referred to as “Maritime Troia culture,” involving both the western Anatolian mainland and several of the large islands in the eastern Aegean, Chios, Lemnos and Lesbos (Korfmann 1996)."
Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia.
http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Cinnioglu2004.pdf

"J2 is very frequent in the Levant/Anatolia/Iran region and its spread in the Mediterranean is believed to have been facilitated by the maritime trading culture of the Phoenicians (1550 BC- 300 BC)."
Genome-Wide and Paternal Diversity Reveal a Recent Origin of Human Populations in North Africa.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0080293

"According to Di Giacomo’s (2004) study, the high diversity of haplogroup J2 in Turkish and southern European populations suggests that this branch of haplogroup J originated around the Aegean, not the Middle East. Additionally, it appears that much of J2 was confined to the coastal Mediterranean areas, indicating that maritime trade, rather than earlier Neolithic agricultural expansions, may have helped spread J2 throughout the Mediterranean world."
A reassessment of Jewish DNA Evidence.
http://www.jogg.info/11/coffman.htm

"The strong western (-0.82) but weak southern (-0.37) orientation of J2 is unexpected if J2 came to Germany from the Balkans, but is consistent with a maritime mode of propagation of this haplogroup."
http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2008/04/haplogroup-correlations-in-germans.html

https://scontent-a-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/t31/886067_503008999757260_1680581313_o.jpg

"A trireme was an ancient vessel and a type of galley that was used by the ancient maritime civilizations of the Mediterranean, especially the Phoenicians, ancient Greeks and Romans."
Trireme
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trireme

Sile
21-01-14, 08:16
The Phoenicians would also have reached bay of biscay at cantabria/Asturias and have attained southernmost England via trading posts.

Its well known that the Phoenicians had a trading post in Brittany with the Veneti and also another in southern Ireland.

John123
21-01-14, 21:49
Agreed my good sir.

RHAS
24-01-14, 10:27
Geneticist Dr. Spencer Wells speaks of his project "Quest of the Phoenicians". Also, he speaks of his parter in the project, Lebanese Dr. Pierre Zalloua. They take DNA samples from the Phoenician home land "Lebanon" and their colonies.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4V_tskDXAk

"In 2004, two geneticists educated at Harvard University and leading scientists of the National Geographic Genographic Project, Dr. Pierre Zalloua and Dr. Spencer Wells, identified "the haplogroup of the Phoenicians" as haplogroup J2, with avenues open for future research."
Familypedia.com - Phoenicia.
http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Phoenicia (http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Phoenicia)

RHAS
25-01-14, 02:50
Haplogroup J2 and Greeks.

https://scontent-b-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1/934029_538689339522559_1077114592_n.jpg
http://www.biomedsearch.com/nih/Croatian-genetic-heritage-Y-chromosome/21674820.html

Sile
26-01-14, 20:16
Sea peoples came from Europe

http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/archives/01/2014/evidence-of-european-sea-peoples-in-jordan-valley

RHAS
04-02-14, 11:50
Haplogroup J2 and Greeks.

"Timur Serdar and Demircin Sema authored a recent study on the Y chromosomes of Antalya, which is located on the southern coast of Anatolia. Haplogroup J2 was most frequent in this study of 75 unrelated males found at a frequency of 26.6%. The J2 data was consistent with an earlier study by Cinnioglu et al which found 24% J2 in southern Anatolia. Haplogroup T (K* in the study) was next most frequent at 13.3% and this data differed from Cinnioglu's data which found only 3.3% Haplogroup K in southern Anatolia. The first record of Antalya was as Attalia, a greek city founded approximately 150BC by Attalos II, King of Pergamon."
M172 Blog - Haplogroup J2, M172 in Antalya, Turkish Republic, 2009.
http://m172.blogspot.nl/2009/06/haplogroup-j2-m172-in-antalya-turkish.html (http://m172.blogspot.nl/2009/06/haplogroup-j2-m172-in-antalya-turkish.html)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Attalos_II_Meret_%C3%96wazov_Antalya.jpg
Statue of Attalus II. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attalus_II_Philadelphus

martiko
15-02-14, 00:50
Haplogroup J2 and Greeks.

"Timur Serdar and Demircin Sema authored a recent study on the Y chromosomes of Antalya, which is located on the southern coast of Anatolia. Haplogroup J2 was most frequent in this study of 75 unrelated males found at a frequency of 26.6%. The J2 data was consistent with an earlier study by Cinnioglu et al which found 24% J2 in southern Anatolia. Haplogroup T (K* in the study) was next most frequent at 13.3% and this data differed from Cinnioglu's data which found only 3.3% Haplogroup K in southern Anatolia. The first record of Antalya was as Attalia, a greek city founded approximately 150BC by Attalos II, King of Pergamon."
M172 Blog - Haplogroup J2, M172 in Antalya, Turkish Republic, 2009.
http://m172.blogspot.nl/2009/06/haplogroup-j2-m172-in-antalya-turkish.html (http://m172.blogspot.nl/2009/06/haplogroup-j2-m172-in-antalya-turkish.html)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Attalos_II_Meret_%C3%96wazov_Antalya.jpg
Statue of Attalus II. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attalus_II_Philadelphus

RHAS
Thank you! It is exciting and it is a lot of job with documents.

RHAS
02-04-14, 14:01
Haplogroup J2 and Minoans. (Greek)

"The most frequent haplogroups among the current population on Crete were: R1b3-M269 (17%), G2-P15 (11%), J2a1-DYS413 (9.0%), and J2a1h-M319 (9.0%). They identified J2a parent haplogroup J2a-M410 (Crete: 25.9%) with the first ancient residents of Crete during the Neolithic (8500 BCE – 4300 BCE) suggesting Crete was founded by a Neolithic population expansion from ancient Turkey/Anatolia."
The Minoans, DNA and all.
http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/the-minoans-dna-and-all/

"The Minoans and Ancient Greeks very likely played an early role in the frequency and high diversity of L24(M530) haplotypes we see today in Apulia, Italy as found by Grugni et al (2012)."
J2-L24 Blogspot - More Comments on Grugni et al (2012)
http://the-j2-l24-clade.blogspot.nl/

https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1.0-9/17908_519923518065808_27970217_n.jpg
Sea-Traders from Crete. (Painting by John Duncan.)

"The world`s maximum concentrations of J2a is in Crete (32% of the population). The subclade J2a4d (M319) appears to be native to Crete."
Eupedia.com 2013.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1.0-9/66939_500431706681656_1979083872_n.jpg
The Prince of the Lilies or the Lily prince, is a celebrated ancient Minoan fresco on the Greek island of Crete dated to circa 1550 BC (the new palace period between 1700 and 1450 BC).

"It has been proposed that haplogroup subclade J-M410 was linked to populations on ancient Crete by examining the relationship between Anatolian, Cretan, and Greek populations from around early Neolithic sites in Crete."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172_(Y-DNA)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccftPtBhw1I

RHAS
03-04-14, 13:00
Haplogroup J2 and Minoans. (Greek)

"Quite a few ancient Mediterranean and Middle Eastern civilisations flourished in territories where J2 lineages were preponderant. This is the case of the Hattians, the Hurrians, the Etruscans, the Minoans, the Greeks, the Phoenicians (and their Carthagian offshoot), the Israelites, and to a lower extend extent also the Romans, the Assyrians and the Persians. All great seafaring civilisations from the middle Bronze Age to the Iron Age were dominated by J2 men."
Eupedia.com - Haplogroup J2.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml)

"Wine making spread to Crete during the Minoan period and then later to Italy with the Etruscans and to Iberia with the Phoenicians. It was an integral component of the economy and social culture of the proto-greek civilizations and the phoenicians who both went on to settle other mediterranean coastal regions. And tracing the spread of Viticulture from its origins to its spread before the Roman period, we can see te highest levels of Haplogroup J2 today correlate with the geographical centres of all these civilizations. While viticulture may not represent the first wave of M172 migrants to Europe, M172 certainly played a strong role in bringing Viticulture to Europe with such civilizations as the Minoans, Greeks and Phoenicians."
M172 Blog - Correlations in the spread of Viticulture and Haplogroup J2, 2008.
http://m172.blogspot.nl/2008/10/correlations-in-spread-of-viticulture.html (http://m172.blogspot.nl/2008/10/correlations-in-spread-of-viticulture.html)

"Bull depictions are omnipresent in Minoan frescos and ceramics in Crete. Bull-masked terracotta figurines and bull-horned stone altars have been found in Cyprus (dating back as far as the Neolithic, the first presumed expansion of J2 from West Asia)."
The Sacred Bull.
http://aratta.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/the-sacred-bull/ (http://aratta.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/the-sacred-bull/)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t31.0-8/830483_496342860423874_1076560344_o.jpg

"In addition to Hg J-M410, Hg G-P15 chromosomes, which are also common in Anatolia, have been implicated in the colonization and subsequent expansion of early farmers in Crete, the Aegean and Italy."
Y-chromosomal evidence of the cultural diffusion of agriculture in southeast Europe.
http://www.unipv.eu/on-line/Home/AreaStampa/documento2986.html (http://www.unipv.eu/on-line/Home/AreaStampa/documento2986.html)

"Haplogroup J2b-M12 was frequent in Thessaly and Greek Macedonia while haplogroup J2a-M410 was scarce. Alternatively, Crete, like Anatolia showed a high frequency of J2a-M410 and a low frequency of J2b-M12."
Differential Y-chromosome Anatolian Influences on the Greek and Cretan Neolithic, 2008.
http://www.atlascom.gr/HELLENIC_DNA_PAPER.PDF (http://www.atlascom.gr/HELLENIC_DNA_PAPER.PDF)

"An analysis of Y-chromosome haplogroups determined that the samples from the Greek Neolithic sites showed strong affinity to Balkan data, while Crete shows affinity with central/Mediterranean Anatolia. Haplogroup J2b-M12 was frequent in Thessaly and Greek Macedonia while haplogroup J2a-M410 was scarce. Alternatively, Crete, like Anatolia showed a high frequency of J2a-M410 and a low frequency of J2b-M12."
Differential Y-chromosome Anatolian Influences on the Greek and Cretan Neolithic.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2007.00414.x/full (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2007.00414.x/full)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYS2DUr3C8g

RHAS
04-04-14, 03:07
Haplogroup J2 and Greeks.

"When the fact that Hungarians are a mix of Central Asian and Mediterranean DNA is combined with the linguistic and cultural evidence I present in my book, the only logical conclusion for the origins of the Uralic peoples is the Indian subcontinent, in the region of the Hindu Kush."
Magyar Origins - Hungarian DNA is not from North Asia.
http://www.magyarorigins.com/hungariandna.html

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t31.0-8/1412432_621965827861576_727975843_o.jpg

LeBrok
04-04-14, 04:19
Haplogroup J2 and Greeks.

"When the fact that Hungarians are a mix of Central Asian and Mediterranean DNA is combined with the linguistic and cultural evidence I present in my book, the only logical conclusion for the origins of the Uralic peoples is the Indian subcontinent, in the region of the Hindu Kush."
Magyar Origins - Hungarian DNA is not from North Asia.
http://www.magyarorigins.com/hungariandna.html



Are you kidding me!!!

Not just Hungarians, but also all Indo Europeans are from India, and probably everyone else with American Indians included of course, lol.

RHAS
04-04-14, 05:10
RHAS
Thank you! It is exciting and it is a lot of job with documents.

You're welcome!

RHAS
08-05-14, 23:03
Haplogroup J2 & Phoenicians (Carthage).

"By the collapse of the Late Bronze Age societies (approximately 3200 YBP), the Mediterranean Basin underwent different waves of invasion, particularly by the Greeks of the Aegean Sea and, to a lower extent, by Levantine (Phoenicians) groups. Both of them established a set of different colonies along the Mediterranean coasts of Southern Europe and North Africa. The Phoenician colony of Carthage (present-day Tunisia), given its geographic proximity to Sicily, may have played an important role in the colonization of this region. Previous Y-chromosome genetic studies on the Phoenician colonization demonstrated that haplogroup J2 in general, and six haplotypes in particular (PCS1+ through PCS6+), may potentially have represented lineages linked with the spread of the Phoenicians (“Phoenician Colonization Signal”) into the Mediterranean. At this respect, it is worth noting the presence of 4 PCS+ haplotypes (namely PCS1+, PCS2+, PCS4+, PCS5+; [51]) in 9 samples of our Sicilian and Southern Italian dataset, particularly belonging to haplogroups J1-M267 (n = 2), J2-M410* (n = 1), J2-M67 (n = 5), and J2-M12 (n = 2). However, sub-lineages of haplogroup J2 have been also associated with the Neolithic colonization of mainland Greece, Crete and Southern Italy, and our TMRCA estimates for J2-subhaplogroups (ranging from 3271±1157 YBP to 3767±1332 YBP) cannot exclude an earlier arrival of at least some of the J2 chromosomes in Sicily and Southern-Italy during Neolithic times."
An Ancient Mediterranean Melting Pot: Investigating the Uniparental Genetic Structure and Population History of Sicily and Southern Italy
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi/10.1371/journal.pone.0096074#pone-0096074-t001

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-y1RKh1-RnPk/UneriLQexZI/AAAAAAAAG8s/GqL7evhRhV4/s1600/colonies.png

"The results regarding my paternal genetics were identified as belonging to Haplogroup J2 (M172). This genetic marker dates back to roughly 15 000 yrs ago and is found predominately in the Fertile Crescent. Most prevalent in Southern Italy, Turkey, Greece, Lebanon, Cyprus and several other countries around the Mediterranean and Caucasus region, some sources claim that these are the genes of the ancient Phoenicians who may have settled in the Roman Empire long ago."
Livelearngrow.ca - My Roots.
http://livelearngrow.ca/category/my-roots/

"The excess of haplogroup J2, and PC1+ to PS3+ in coastal Tunisia, the site of Carthage, compared to inland Tunisian populations is exceptionally significant, and suggests that the Roman destruction of Carthage did not eliminate the Carthaginian gene pool."
Anthropology.net - The Y-Chromosomal Footprint Of Phoenicians Throughout The Mediterranean.
http://anthropology.net/2008/10/30/the-y-chromosomal-footprint-of-phoenicians-throughout-the-mediterranean/

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Gu%C3%A9rin_%C3%89n%C3%A9e_racontant_%C3%A0_Didon_ les_malheurs_de_la_ville_de_Troie_Louvre_5184.jpg
Aeneas recounting the Trojan War to Dido, a painting by Pierre-Narcisse Guérin. This scene is taken from Virgil's Aeneid, where Dido falls in love with, only to be left by, the Trojan hero Aeneas.

"Dido (/ˈdaɪdoʊ/ DY-doh) was, according to ancient Greek and Roman sources, the founder and first Queen of Carthage (in modern-day Tunisia). She is best known from the account given by the Roman poet Virgil in his Aeneid. ...... The person of Dido can be traced to references by Roman historians to lost writings of Timaeus of Tauromenium in Sicily (c. 356–260 BC)."
Wikipedia.org - Dido (Queen of Carthage)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dido_(Queen_of_Carthage)

RHAS
15-05-14, 05:28
Haplogroup J2, Phoenicians and Malta.


"One extraordinary group carried their traditions and their chromosomes into the Mediterranean frontier. Were they the Atlantis superheroes of science fiction? No. They do appear to have been more intellectually and artistically advanced than anyone around them in the same time period. Where they settled, they made an impact. Their descendants survived through the ages with aspects of their original ancient identity largely intact until time and assimilation finally absorbed them -- as Sea Peoples and Temple-Builders, later as Minoans and Etruscans, and still later in the great civilizations of Classical Greece and Rome. Original ancestral families of settlers who make up a bridge into civilization are the people we are identifying as The Mediterraneans."
Ancientmed.org - The mediterraneans.
http://www.ancientmed.org/TheMediterraneans.htm


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDaJLDfdd6Y

"A Lebanese genetic scientist who has been following in 2007 the genetic footprint of the ancient Phoenician civilisation across the Mediterranean has found that close to one-third of modern-day Maltese share a genetic link with the ancient Phoenicians. Thirty per cent of DNA samples taken from Malta have been found to share a common and ancient genetic marker, known as the J2 haplogroup, with the Phoenician civilisation, which had colonised Malta for much of the first millennium BC."
Blog dei Fenici - One third of Maltese found to have ancient Phoenician DNA.
http://www.blogdeifenici.it/2014/612...hoenician-dna/ (http://www.blogdeifenici.it/2014/612/one-third-of-maltese-found-to-have-ancient-phoenician-dna/)

"As DNA samples continue to be analyzed, more revelations are surfacing. "We've just received data that more than half of the Y chromosome lineages that we see in today's Maltese population could have come in with the Phoenicians," Wells says. "That's a significant genetic impact. But why?" At this point he can only speculate. "Perhaps the population on Malta wasn't as dense. Perhaps when the Phoenicians settled, they killed off the existing population, and their own descendants became today's Maltese. Maybe the islands never had that many people, and shiploads of Phoenicians literally moved in and swamped the local population. We don't know for sure, but the results are consistent with a settlement of people from the Levant within the past 2,000 years, and that points to the Phoenicians."
National Geographic - In the Wake of the Phoenicians: DNA study reveals a Phoenician-Maltese link
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature2/online_extra.html

"One of the biggest surprises discovered till now is the genetic relationship between the people of Malta and the people of the Lebanese coast. Genetic similarities between the two groups are so high that they are a cause of amazement and surprise. What this has proven, so far, is the validity of the accounts of Phoenician history, on one hand, against the results of genetic studies in geographical areas of Phoenician colonies, on the other. Genetic studies underway will clear the mystery of the Phoenicians, and perhaps, embarrass many others. It is going to address a struggle over the history and ancestry of Lebanon which used to be thought of as a struggle over myths."
Phoenicia.org - Genetics.
http://phoenicia.org/genetics.html

"Since the swanky London gathering to celebrate the publication of his book The Journey of Man, Wells has been promoted to the august position of "explorer-in-residence" at the National Geographic Society. He isn`t resident much. Eternally wandering, like any good explorer, which is a joint undertaking between the society and IBM. More than anything, this enterprise appears to be a genetic search for our collective identoty as a species. As Wells himself puts it, "In this future-obsessed era, it is important to seize a snapshot of our past before it is lost forever, in order better to understand ourselves and were we are headed." In his view, this snapshot is procured by collecting and comparing DNA from hundreds of thousends of individuals, who represen t all the ethnic and tribal peoples of the world. The project`s ambition is to map in detail how different groups and peoples are related to each other and how they have moved aroud and mixed over the millennia. As reported in the American Journal of Human Genetics, the propject`s geneticists have uncovered that the past`s great sailors, the Phoenicians, are the ancestors of the modern Maltese."
My Beautiful Genome: Discovering Our Genetic Future, One Quirk at a Time.
http://books.google.nl/books?id=Rpa_iQUoSP8C&pg=PT38&dq=phoenician+malta+dna&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=3ip1U6a6F4KLOMHIgdAG&ved=0CEUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=phoenician%20malta%20dna&f=false

"They looked at the genetic signatures carried on the Y chromosomes of men from former Phoenician colonies across the Mediterranean. The sites included coastal Lebanon, Cyprus, Crete, Malta, eastern Sicily, southern Sardinia, Ibiza, southern Spain, coastal Tunisia and the city of Tingris in Morocco."
BBC News - DNA legacy of ancient seafarers.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7700356.stm

"The same marker was found in unusually high proportions on other parts of the Mediterranean coast where the Phoenicians are known to have established colonies, such as Carthage in today's Tunisia. It's abundantly present in the Iberian peninsula, Zalloua added. In Malta, the ancient DNA type was found in an extremely high 30 percent of samples, he said. We are seeing a pattern of expansion out of the Levant area along the maritime routes the Phoenicians used he said. The J2 haplogroup has been dated using a calculation based on the rate at which DNA mutates."
Reuters - In Lebanon DNA may yet heal rifts.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/09/10/us-phoenicians-dna-idUSL0559096520070910

http://www.centralbankmalta.org/site/imgs/phoenicians_silver.jpg

RHAS
15-05-14, 05:55
Haplogroup J2 and Greeks.

"As for haplogroup J, most Greeks (22.8% Greeks/14.3% Macedonian Greeks) belong to J-M172 and its subclades which is associated with Neolithic population movements."
Mathildas Anthropology Blog - Greek Y chromosomes by Dienekes.
http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/06/10/greek-y-chromosomes-by-dienekes/

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/t1.0-9/10297965_748495698541921_3025538494405698234_n.jpg

LeBrok
15-05-14, 06:10
"A Lebanese genetic scientist who has been following in 2007 the genetic footprint of the ancient Phoenician civilisation across the Mediterranean has found that close to one-third of modern-day Maltese share a genetic link with the ancient Phoenicians. Thirty per cent of DNA samples taken from Malta have been found to share a common and ancient genetic marker, known as the J2 haplogroup, with the Phoenician civilisation, which had colonised Malta for much of the first millennium BC."
Blog dei Fenici - One third of Maltese found to have ancient Phoenician DNA.
http://www.blogdeifenici.it/2014/612...hoenician-dna/ (http://www.blogdeifenici.it/2014/612/one-third-of-maltese-found-to-have-ancient-phoenician-dna/)
This is not a link to this scientific paper you are talking about. All I could gather from this article is that they judged relationship to Phoenicians by J2 marker. It is not good enough. This haplogroup could have arrived to Malta from Greece or Italy as well. It is very likely that most J2 in Malta is indead of Phoenician origin, but this article is not a proof of it, and neither will be this supposed scientific paper. It is just an educated assumption, that's all it is, and as many assumptions it might be wrong.

Angela
15-05-14, 14:21
This is not a link to this scientific paper you are talking about. All I could gather from this article is that they judged relationship to Phoenicians by J2 marker. It is not good enough. This haplogroup could have arrived to Malta from Greece or Italy as well. It is very likely that most J2 in Malta is indead of Phoenician origin, but this article is not a proof of it, and neither will be this supposed scientific paper. It is just an educated assumption, that's all it is, and as many assumptions it might be wrong.

So sorry, LeBrok, I meant to acknowledge the helpfulness of your post. I shouldn't read this site while I have my coffee...or rather, I should wait until it kicks in.:smile:

Can you fix it?

LeBrok
15-05-14, 17:13
So sorry, LeBrok, I meant to acknowledge the helpfulness of your post. I shouldn't read this site while I have my coffee...or rather, I should wait until it kicks in.:smile:

Can you fix it?
Nope, but I did it myself few times. No worries.

LeBrok
15-05-14, 17:40
@RHAS. Why the hell did you give me negative rating for my last post? It is not even critical to your point of view!!! You must be a vicious small man, who quietly stubs in the back.

RHAS
15-05-14, 18:52
Haplogroup J2 and Phoenicians.

"LAU scientist Dr. Pierre Zalloua, who discovered a genetic signature unique to the lost Phoenician civilization and used it to trace its descendants, appeared on the international television news channel CNN earlier this month to present his latest findings. Zalloua, assistant dean for Research at LAU’s School of Medicine, attracted media attention from around the world when he discovered that one in 17 men living in the Mediterranean carried Phoenician genes, indicating that the descendants of the “lost” civilization were alive and well."
Lebanese American University - LAU geneticist’s quest for the Phoenicians makes headlines.
http://www.lau.edu.lb/news-events/news/archive/lau_geneticists_quest_for_the/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvlIrWk9utI

"The Neolithic control section shows nonsignificant results across all haplogroups, except for a significant J2 result in one test. The Phoenician-colony test results highlight only one haplogroup, J2, which consistently scores significantly in all three tests across the range of colonization sites. However, this haplogroup also scores significantly in Greek tests (as do some additional haplogroup...s), suggesting that the same haplogroup could have been spread by several expansions, which is unsurprising considering its frequency in the Eastern Mediterranean but implies that higher phylogenetic resolution is required for identification of Phoenician-specific signals."
Identifying Genetic Traces of Historical Expansions: Phoenician Footprints in the Mediterranean.
http://www.cell.com/AJHG/fulltext/S0002-9297(08)00547-8

https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/10153836_749476141777210_4503470036132160382_n.jpg

Aberdeen
15-05-14, 19:17
This is not a link to this scientific paper you are talking about. All I could gather from this article is that they judged relationship to Phoenicians by J2 marker. It is not good enough. This haplogroup could have arrived to Malta from Greece or Italy as well. It is very likely that most J2 in Malta is indead of Phoenician origin, but this article is not a proof of it, and neither will be this supposed scientific paper. It is just an educated assumption, that's all it is, and as many assumptions it might be wrong.

I think a bit of scepticism about those conclusions would in fact be quite justified, considering how many people have occupied those lands since the time of the Phoenicians. The J2 in Malta could certainly be Roman, for example. So could the J2 in Lebanon, for that matter, even though it's more likely native Middle Eastern. J2 is one of those haplotypes that originated in the Middle East but spread all around subsequently, so we can't necessarily say how it got to one particular location, unless someone has information on subclades that would suggest a Phoenician rather than Roman origin for the J2 in Malta, for example. But I didn't see that level of information in that article, so I think, as you said, the J2 in Malta could just as easily arrived in Malta from Greece or Italy. I would say it's as likely to be later Arab blood than from the Phoencian period. However, some words seem to inspire magical thinking in some people and "Phoenician" definitely seems to be one of those words.

Maleth
15-05-14, 20:36
"A Lebanese genetic scientist who has been following in 2007 the genetic footprint of the ancient Phoenician civilisation across the Mediterranean has found that close to one-third of modern-day Maltese share a genetic link with the ancient Phoenicians. Thirty per cent of DNA samples taken from Malta have been found to share a common and ancient genetic marker, known as the J2 haplogroup, with the Phoenician civilisation, which had colonised Malta for much of the first millennium BC."
Blog dei Fenici - One third of Maltese found to have ancient Phoenician DNA.
http://www.blogdeifenici.it/2014/612...hoenician-dna/ (http://www.blogdeifenici.it/2014/612/one-third-of-maltese-found-to-have-ancient-phoenician-dna/)

"As DNA samples continue to be analyzed, more revelations are surfacing. "We've just received data that more than half of the Y chromosome lineages that we see in today's Maltese population could have come in with the Phoenicians," Wells says. "That's a significant genetic impact. But why?" At this point he can only speculate. "Perhaps the population on Malta wasn't as dense. Perhaps when the Phoenicians settled, they killed off the existing population, and their own descendants became today's Maltese. Maybe the islands never had that many people, and shiploads of Phoenicians literally moved in and swamped the local population. We don't know for sure, but the results are consistent with a settlement of people from the Levant within the past 2,000 years, and that points to the Phoenicians."
National Geographic - In the Wake of the Phoenicians: DNA study reveals a Phoenician-Maltese link
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature2/online_extra.html

Hello Rhas. My nick is the word given to the island of Malta. Maleth means harbour or save haven (because of the numerous sheltered harbours around the Island. It is later believed to have been kept by to Romans and by time being called Melita.

These are some facts about present day understanding on the different time frames on the Islands

A) temple building. Malta's oldest temple date back to approx 5600BCE which makes them older than the pyramids of Egypt. There are intense studies at the moment in coloration with the University of Belfast. The temples could be well in connection with the 'old Europe' culture. I am hoping that dna testing will be carried out on the bones found on the site and determine haplogroups. This culture disappeared suddenly and the new studies will reveal why it came to an abrupt end. There are many theories (climate change, disease, erosion and so on) but nothing proved yet. The next evidence of other culture was the Phoenecians.

B) Phoenicians arrived in the 7th century BC. They founded to old captial (present day Mdina) and called it Maleth. As I said earlier the Romans kept the same name but was corrupted by time (Maleth / Melita / Malta). There were two phoenetician temples both close to the main harbours dedicated to Juno and Astarte. One still has its original foundations in the south and the other (documented in Roman writings) was in the entrance in todays grand harbour on the other side of Valletta (Probably where there is the great fort of St Angelo in Birgu). In the temple of the south were found two coloums with both Greek and Phoenician inscriptions (one of them is in the Louvre in Paris) This helped a great deal to decipher the Phoenician language through the Greek

C) during the arab period alhymardi (not sure if I spelt his name correctly) wrote that Malta was an uninhabited island and visited by fishermen and for logging and was inhabited by wild donkeys. This was after the fatimids laid seige on the Byzantines (so again it seems there was another culture meltdown and no continuation between these two well known groups that is the temple builders and the Phoenicians)

D) However Malta was repopulated again during the end of the Arab (870AD to 1091AD) (or more precise the Fatimid period) who occupied Sicily too. The people that repopulated Malta came from Sicily, So the modern day population (that has some 22% J2) would have arrived from Sicily. In fact DNA proves that Maltese DNA is related very closely to South Italy and Sicily according to a study by Capelli et al. Of course these also have large pools of J2 that could mark the Greek or Phoenician elements in both populations but not a continuous one on the Island of Malta (as per the writings left by Hymradi)

E) It used to be believed that Malta holds some ancient form of Phoenician language but nearly all linguists now believe that Maltese is a reminiscent of the Lingua franka spoken in Spain and sicily during the Fatimid occupation, also called siculo arabic. Of course this language has been lost in both Spain and Sicily (some words and place names still evident), but survived in Malta mainly thanks to the British as they fought hard for the Italian Language not to take over the Islands so Maltese became more prevalent. Now both Maltese and English are national languages with Maltese being the only semetic language written in Latin characters in Europe.

I hope this helps.

Maleth
15-05-14, 20:45
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i895HvZX0PQ

RHAS
16-05-14, 00:24
Haplogroup J2, Phoenicians and Malta.


Haplogroup J2, Phoenicians and Malta.

"A Lebanese genetic scientist who has been following in 2007 the genetic footprint of the ancient Phoenician civilisation across the Mediterranean has found that close to one-third of modern-day Maltese share a genetic link with the ancient Phoenicians. Thirty per cent of DNA samples taken from Malta have been found to share a common and ancient genetic marker, known as the J2 haplogroup, with the Phoenician civilisation, which had colonised Malta for much of the first millennium BC."
Blog dei Fenici - One third of Maltese found to have ancient Phoenician DNA.
http://www.blogdeifenici.it/2014/612...hoenician-dna/ (http://www.blogdeifenici.it/2014/612/one-third-of-maltese-found-to-have-ancient-phoenician-dna/)

"As DNA samples continue to be analyzed, more revelations are surfacing. "We've just received data that more than half of the Y chromosome lineages that we see in today's Maltese population could have come in with the Phoenicians," Wells says. "That's a significant genetic impact. But why?" At this point he can only speculate. "Perhaps the population on Malta wasn't as dense. Perhaps when the Phoenicians settled, they killed off the existing population, and their own descendants became today's Maltese. Maybe the islands never had that many people, and shiploads of Phoenicians literally moved in and swamped the local population. We don't know for sure, but the results are consistent with a settlement of people from the Levant within the past 2,000 years, and that points to the Phoenicians."
National Geographic - In the Wake of the Phoenicians: DNA study reveals a Phoenician-Maltese link
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature2/online_extra.html

"One of the biggest surprises discovered till now is the genetic relationship between the people of Malta and the people of the Lebanese coast. Genetic similarities between the two groups are so high that they are a cause of amazement and surprise. What this has proven, so far, is the validity of the accounts of Phoenician history, on one hand, against the results of genetic studies in geographical areas of Phoenician colonies, on the other. Genetic studies underway will clear the mystery of the Phoenicians, and perhaps, embarrass many others. It is going to address a struggle over the history and ancestry of Lebanon which used to be thought of as a struggle over myths."
Phoenicia.org - Genetics.
http://phoenicia.org/genetics.html

"Since the swanky London gathering to celebrate the publication of his book The Journey of Man, Wells has been promoted to the august position of "explorer-in-residence" at the National Geographic Society. He isn`t resident much. Eternally wandering, like any good explorer, which is a joint undertaking between the society and IBM. More than anything, this enterprise appears to be a genetic search for our collective identoty as a species. As Wells himself puts it, "In this future-obsessed era, it is important to seize a snapshot of our past before it is lost forever, in order better to understand ourselves and were we are headed." In his view, this snapshot is procured by collecting and comparing DNA from hundreds of thousends of individuals, who represen t all the ethnic and tribal peoples of the world. The project`s ambition is to map in detail how different groups and peoples are related to each other and how they have moved aroud and mixed over the millennia. As reported in the American Journal of Human Genetics, the propject`s geneticists have uncovered that the past`s great sailors, the Phoenicians, are the ancestors of the modern Maltese."
My Beautiful Genome: Discovering Our Genetic Future, One Quirk at a Time.
http://books.google.nl/books?id=Rpa_iQUoSP8C&pg=PT38&dq=phoenician+malta+dna&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=3ip1U6a6F4KLOMHIgdAG&ved=0CEUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=phoenician%20malta%20dna&f=false

"They looked at the genetic signatures carried on the Y chromosomes of men from former Phoenician colonies across the Mediterranean. The sites included coastal Lebanon, Cyprus, Crete, Malta, eastern Sicily, southern Sardinia, Ibiza, southern Spain, coastal Tunisia and the city of Tingris in Morocco."
BBC News - DNA legacy of ancient seafarers
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7700356.stm

"The same marker was found in unusually high proportions on other parts of the Mediterranean coast where the Phoenicians are known to have established colonies, such as Carthage in today's Tunisia. It's abundantly present in the Iberian peninsula, Zalloua added. In Malta, the ancient DNA type was found in an extremely high 30 percent of samples, he said. We are seeing a pattern of expansion out of the Levant area along the maritime routes the Phoenicians used he said. The J2 haplogroup has been dated using a calculation based on the rate at which DNA mutates."
Reuters - In Lebanon DNA may yet heal rifts.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/09/10/us-phoenicians-dna-idUSL0559096520070910



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZjF5IfuML0

Video Part.3 - The Phoenician Imprint.
By Spencer Wells, geneticist and an Explorer-in-Residence at the National Geographic Society, Professor at Cornell University, leader of The Genographic Project.
"Surprisingly, more then 50% Malta's Y-Chromosome (male DNA) came from the Phoenicians. According to history, archeology and DNA, all points to the "Phoenicians" were the first to inhabit Malta."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZjF5IfuML0

"We reconstructed the genetic structure of the Levantines and found that a pre-Islamic expansion Levant was more genetically similar to Europeans than to Middle Easterners."
Genome-Wide Diversity in the Levant Reveals Recent Structuring by Culture.
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003316

Aberdeen
16-05-14, 01:09
So basically, in terms of proving that the J2 on Malta is Phoenician rather than being from the Romans or Sicilians or from the Arab occupation, all you've got is someone saying "could be". Not very conclusive. If these "researchers" have subclade information that the more technically minded on this forum could dissect, we might have a yes or no, but at this point all we have is some folks with Phoenician fantasies and "could be".

Echetlaeus
16-05-14, 01:51
In my humble opinion, the migration of people and sample selection issues must be taken into consideration in these studies.

Let me be more clear. For example Athens 2 centuries ago did not have more than 2500 houses, as Eleni Glykatzi-Arveler points out. After the liberation of Greece from the Ottomans, many people "flew" to the new capital. Eventually Athens ended up with more than 4 million inhabitants as for today, mostly peopled that migrated from their villages or smaller towns.

Hence, if someone wants to have more robust results about the genome, has to trace also (as much as he can) the history of their ancestors.

LeBrok
16-05-14, 05:11
Video Part.3 - The Phoenician Imprint. By Spencer Wells, geneticist and an Explorer-in-Residence at the National Geographic Society, Professor at Cornell University, leader of The Genographic Project.

"Surprisingly, more then 50% Malta's Y-Chromosome (male DNA) came from the Phoenicians. According to history, archeology and DNA, all points to the "Phoenicians" were the first to inhabit Malta."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZjF5IfuML0A little bit better, although this was 2007 study, and they promise to increase sumple size. Did they? Any updates from them? Where is the paper about this study?
However he doesn't say anything about 1/3 of population of Malta being Phoenician J2 type. He only says that there is (autosomal?) genetic connection with Near East and he speculates about Phoenicians being the source. He admits that possibly the source might be Neolithic.

LeBrok
16-05-14, 05:22
NOTE!

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What about post #45, it was in friendly tone, on topic, valid critique of the article you attached? And yet I got a negative rating. Do I need to kiss your ars any time I want to discuss anything in your threads? And only then I'm friendly?

You are just unreasonable and mean person.

You missed this:
We encourage controversial discussion as long as you show respect to other members and their views/opinions.

RHAS
16-05-14, 08:45
Haplogroup J2 and Phoenicians.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_z6b_xwS9M

In "Quest for the Phoenicians," three renowned scientists, National Geographic Explorer-in-Residence and oceanographer Robert Ballard, geneticist Spencer Wells and archaeologist Paco Giles, search for clues about the Phoenicians in the sea, in the earth and in the blood of their modern-day descendents... Ballard looks at ancient shipwrecks along Skerki Bank off the island of Sicily... Paco Giles excavates a cave at the bottom of the rock of Gibraltar... Spencer Wells collects DNA from a 2,500-year-old Phoenician mummy's tooth, to extract its unique genetic code and compare it with DNA samples collected from men and women from Lebanon to Tunisia.

http://www.hushigi.com/turkey/istanbul2/P1080369m.jpg
Sarcofagus, Sidonian King Tabnit

It was reported in the PBS description of the National Geographic TV Special on this study entitled "Quest for the Phoenicians" that ancient DNA was included in this study as extracted from the tooth of a 2500 year-old Phoenician mummy.

http://www.insecula.com/PhotosNew/00/00/08/11/ME0000081153_3.JPG
King Tabnit remains.

"Recent DNA (Y chromosome) studies conducted by the National Geographic Magazine on the bones of ancient Phoenicians and living people from Syria, Lebanon and elsewhere in the Mediterranean have shown that the modern peoples carry the same ancient Phoenician genetic material. Further, the Phoenician bloodline has been proven to come from an ancient Mediterranean sub-stratum."
New World Encyclopedia - Phoenician Civilization.
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Phoenician_Civilization

"The reference of the genetic prototype for the Phoenician makeup is based on human remains discovered in Turkey, as well as a human jaw—perhaps up to 4,000 years old—found in a mountain cave at Raskifa, Lebanon. Additional human remains are used, as well, for constructing a clear image of the Phoenician genetic point of reference."
Phoenicia.org - Genetics.
http://phoenicia.org/genetics.html

"Sidon Kralı Tabnit'in İstanbul Arkeoloji Müzesi'ndeki mumyasının sırlarını, alınan azıdişi ve derisinin DNA testleri çözecek. İstanbul Arkeoloji Müzesi'nde bulunan Sidon Kralı Tabnit'e ait mumyadan bir azıdişiyle iki parça deri, DNA testi yapılmak üzere alındı. Müzede özel bir odada saklanan Tabnit ile yıllardır müzenin deposunda tutulan esrarlı çocuk mumyasını Milliyet görüntüledi. National Geographic televizyonu bir belgesel için aralıkta müzede çekim yaptı. Belgesel kapsamında Kral Tabnit'in dönemindeki hastalıklar, yaşı, hangi millete ait özellikler taşıdığı ve ölüm nedeninin araştırılması için mumyanın bir azıdişi ile derisinden küçük birer parça deri alındı. Analiz ve kan testleri Beyrut Amerikan Üniversitesi'nde, DNA testleri Leipzig veya Oxford Laboratuvarı'nda yapılacak."
Milliyet - 'Lanetli Kral Tabnit' in mumyasına DNA testi.
http://www.milliyet.com.tr/2004/04/13/yasam/yas04.html

LeBrok
16-05-14, 09:05
Did anyone analyzed ancient phoenician DNA?

Sile
16-05-14, 11:10
Did anyone analyzed ancient phoenician DNA?

Is there an issue with Rhas links? I find them plausible.

IIRC, phoenicians where J1, J2, T and E

NatGen state there are less than 9% of phoenicians in the world today based on genetics ............I cannot find this data, I only saw it on a program and also one of their magazines

RHAS
16-05-14, 11:30
Haplogroup J2, Phoenicians and the spread of the Alphabet.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xkoo5ge_bQA

"Phoenicians themselves reportedly had a rich literature, it was totally lost in antiquity. That's ironic, because the Phoenicians actually developed the modern alphabet and spread it through trade to their ports of call. Acting as cultural middlemen, the Phoenicians disseminated ideas, myths, and knowledge from the powerful Assyrian and Babylonian worlds in what is now Syria and Iraq to their contacts in the Aegean. Those ideas helped spark a cultural revival in Greece, one which led to the Greeks' Golden Age and hence the birth of Western civilization. The Phoenicians imported so much papyrus from Egypt that the Greeks used their name for the first great Phoenician port, Byblos, to refer to the ancient paper. The name Bible, or "the book," also derives from Byblos. Today, Spencer Wells says, "Phoenicians have become ghosts, a vanished civilization." Now he and Zalloua hope to use a different alphabet, the molecular letters of DNA, to exhume these ghosts."
National Geographic - Who were the Phoenicians?
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature2/?fs=www3.nationalgeographic.com

http://historyofenglishpodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Episode-13-Spread-of-the-Alphabet.png


Haplogroup J2 and the Spread of the Alphabet. (Greek and Phoenician)

The Abduction of Europa: mosaic, Byblos, 3rd century A.D . National Museum of Beirut Collection. According to the Greek legend Europa’s brother Cadmus went looking for his kidnapped sister who is depicted on the mosaic being whisked away on the back of Zeus disguised as a bull. The story goes that in his search for Europe Cadmos transmitted the Phoenician alphabet to the Hellenes.

https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/577720_510383479019812_1389822478_n.jpg

"Cadmus or Kadmos (Ancient Greek: Κάδμος), in Greek mythology, was a Phoenician prince, the son of king Agenor and queen Telephassa of Tyre and the brother of Phoenix, Cilix and Europa. He was originally sent by his royal parents to seek out and escort his sister Europa back to Tyre after she was abducted from the shores of Phoenicia by Zeus. Cadmus founded the Greek city of Thebes, the acropolis of which was originally named Cadmeia in his honour. Cadmus was credited by the ancient Greeks (Herodotus is an example) with introducing the original Alphabet or Phoenician alphabet -- phoinikeia grammata, "Phoenician letters"—to the Greeks, who adapted it to form their Greek alphabet."
Cadmus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmus

"The authors found a weak – but significant – genetic signature among their samples that could not be explained by chance. Many of the samples belonged to a very specific branch of haplogroup J2, which the authors believe points back to distinct migrations by Phoenician traders from the Middle East into Europe and North Africa more than 3,000 years ago."
Ripples in the Mediterranean: Tracing the Genetic Origins of the Phoenicians.
http://blog.23andme.com/ancestry/rip...e-phoenicians/ (http://blog.23andme.com/ancestry/ripples-in-the-mediterranean-tracing-the-genetic-origins-of-the-phoenicians/)

"The ancient Greeks and Phoenicians were the main driving forces behind the spread of J2 around the western and southern Mediterranian."
Eupedia.com, 2013.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origin...s_europe.shtml (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml)

"In 2004, two geneticists educated at Harvard University and leading scientists of the National Geographic Genographic Project, Dr. Pierre Zalloua and Dr. Spencer Wells, identified "the haplogroup of the Phoenicians" as haplogroup J2, with avenues open for future research."
Familypedia.com - Phoenicia.
http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Phoenicia

"Occurrence of J2-M172 Y-chromosomes in Tuscany has been related to the Etruscan heritage of the region."
Uniparental Markers of Contemporary Italian Population Reveals Details on Its Pre-Roman Heritage.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0050794 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0050794)

"There is a distinct association of ancient J2 civilisations with bull worship."
Eupedia.com, 2011.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

https://sphotos-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/484321_510285402362953_1312221250_n.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_alphabet

"Phoenician became one of the most widely used writing systems, spread by Phoenician merchants across the Mediterranean world, where it was assimilated by many other cultures and evolved."
Phoenician Alphabet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet

"The Greek alphabet was developed by a Greek with first-hand experience of contemporary Phoenician script and, almost as quickly as it was established in the Greek mainland was rapidly re-exported, eastwards to Phrygia, where a similar script was devised, and westwards with Euboean or West Greek traders, where the Etruscans adapted the Greek alphabet to their own language."
History of the Greek Alphabet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...Greek_alphabet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Greek_alphabet)

"The Latin alphabet is the main writing system in use in the Western world and is the most widely used alphabetic writing system in the world. It is the standard script of the English language and is often referred to simply as "the alphabet" in English. It is a true alphabet which originated in the 7th century BC in Italy and has changed continually over the last 2500 years. It has roots in the Semitic alphabet and its offshoot alphabets, the Phoenician, Greek, and Etruscan."
History of the Latin Alphabet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...Latin_alphabet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Latin_alphabet)

https://sphotos-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/156057_510305222360971_1621426644_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t1.0-9/10382817_749046828486808_4817964669708753458_n.jpg

Angela
16-05-14, 16:56
Hello Rhas. My nick is the word given to the island of Malta. Maleth means harbour or save haven (because of the numerous sheltered harbours around the Island. It is later believed to have been kept by to Romans and by time being called Melita.

These are some facts about present day understanding on the different time frames on the Islands

A) temple building. Malta's oldest temple date back to approx 5600BCE which makes them older than the pyramids of Egypt. There are intense studies at the moment in coloration with the University of Belfast. The temples could be well in connection with the 'old Europe' culture. I am hoping that dna testing will be carried out on the bones found on the site and determine haplogroups. This culture disappeared suddenly and the new studies will reveal why it came to an abrupt end. There are many theories (climate change, disease, erosion and so on) but nothing proved yet. The next evidence of other culture was the Phoenecians.

B) Phoenicians arrived in the 7th century BC. They founded to old captial (present day Mdina) and called it Maleth. As I said earlier the Romans kept the same name but was corrupted by time (Maleth / Melita / Malta). There were two phoenetician temples both close to the main harbours dedicated to Juno and Astarte. One still has its original foundations in the south and the other (documented in Roman writings) was in the entrance in todays grand harbour on the other side of Valletta (Probably where there is the great fort of St Angelo in Birgu). In the temple of the south were found two coloums with both Greek and Phoenician inscriptions (one of them is in the Louvre in Paris) This helped a great deal to decipher the Phoenician language through the Greek

C) during the arab period alhymardi (not sure if I spelt his name correctly) wrote that Malta was an uninhabited island and visited by fishermen and for logging and was inhabited by wild donkeys. This was after the fatimids laid seige on the Byzantines (so again it seems there was another culture meltdown and no continuation between these two well known groups that is the temple builders and the Phoenicians)

D) However Malta was repopulated again during the end of the Arab (870AD to 1091AD) (or more precise the Fatimid period) who occupied Sicily too. The people that repopulated Malta came from Sicily, So the modern day population (that has some 22% J2) would have arrived from Sicily. In fact DNA proves that Maltese DNA is related very closely to South Italy and Sicily according to a study by Capelli et al. Of course these also have large pools of J2 that could mark the Greek or Phoenician elements in both populations but not a continuous one on the Island of Malta (as per the writings left by Hymradi)

E) It used to be believed that Malta holds some ancient form of Phoenician language but nearly all linguists now believe that Maltese is a reminiscent of the Lingua franka spoken in Spain and sicily during the Fatimid occupation, also called siculo arabic. Of course this language has been lost in both Spain and Sicily (some words and place names still evident), but survived in Malta mainly thanks to the British as they fought hard for the Italian Language not to take over the Islands so Maltese became more prevalent. Now both Maltese and English are national languages with Maltese being the only semetic language written in Latin characters in Europe.

I hope this helps.

Excellent post, Maleth. Thank you. Great video, too.

I once spent quite a bit of time studying the period of the great conflict between the Ottomans and Western Christendom, and particularly the role of the Knights of St. John in that conflict. I never really focused on how much that period could have influenced the genetics of the area, although I should have, considering the reports about how all the people of Gozo, or example, were taken into slavery.

I think there's insufficient attention paid to the fact that there has been population replacement in certain areas, and the people are therefore not going to reflect ancient populations very well. Many genetics papers, in my opinion, suffer from the fact that the authors often display little knowledge of the history of the areas under discussion.

Maleth
16-05-14, 20:35
Excellent post, Maleth. Thank you. Great video, too.

Thank you Angela. I am glad you enjoyed the video too :smile:




I once spent quite a bit of time studying the period of the great conflict between the Ottomans and Western Christendom, and particularly the role of the Knights of St. John in that conflict. I never really focused on how much that period could have influenced the genetics of the area, although I should have, considering the reports about how all the people of Gozo, or example, were taken into slavery.

You are correct. In one particular raid (there used to be many) the Turks took I guess nearly all the population of Gozo into slavery in 1551. Raids were very common at that time although things improved rapidly after the ottoman total defeat after a 4 month siege on Birgu in 1565 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rubruP9p4i8 Soon after La Vallette embarked on building Valletta which was practically impregnable and the Turks never set foot again. During this time it is known from church records that there were many mixed marriages around the harbour area since they have created an important milatry based economy.



I think there's insufficient attention paid to the fact that there has been population replacement in certain areas, and the people are therefore not going to reflect ancient populations very well. Many genetics papers, in my opinion, suffer from the fact that the authors often display little knowledge of the history of the areas under discussion.

You are very correct. This is very evident also in the approach of (example) Spencer wells. It seems he did not check out the history first before making certain statements and while I have no doubt that he has done some great works, some statements seem to be out of context. Example in the year 1223 Emperor Fredrick the 2nd ordered his army to destroy the Castle of Celano and all the male population was exiled to Sicily and Malta. In Malta they settled in the south in the village of Zejtun. During the Aragonese period (before the knights take over) is also known to have been an effort to populate further the islands and many surnames today survive from that period too. So its all quite a pot pourii, not to mention the 180 years of British rule.

LeBrok
17-05-14, 06:34
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i895HvZX0PQ
So small and yet so historically rich and important.

RHAS
18-05-14, 08:08
Haplogroup J2, Phoenicians and Malta.


We can see that the Phoenicians passed through the egyptian Nile and the Red Sea also passing east Africa's Swahili coast and basically contouring all of Africa (for those Atlantic Ocean island skeptics).

http://www.phoenicia.org.uk/documents/Malta-Times.jpg
Malta Times - Phoenician replica vessel sails around Africa.
http://www.phoenicia.org.uk/documents/Malta-Times.jpg

"The Phoenicia, a replica 600 BC Phoenician merchant ship, sailed gracefully into Marsamxett harbour today on one of the final legs of an expedition covering 17,000 miles around Africa. The 20m long vessel, built using traditional methods, arrived from Carthage. It is recreating the first circumnavigation of Africa achieved some 2,600 years ago. Malta was an important trading outpost of the Phoenician people, who at the time were regarded as 'rulers of the sea'. They occupied what is now Lebanon and the coastal parts of Syria and Palestine.The Phoenician sphere of influence spread throughout the Mediterranean and their trading activities reached as far as Cornwall for tin, and Indian and China for spices and precious goods."
Times of Malta - History recreated as 'Phoenicia' sails in.
http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20100922/local/history-recreated-as-phoenicia-sails-in.328023

Maleth
18-05-14, 12:45
So small and yet so historically rich and important.

It is indeed. LeBrok, Mdina (Maleth/Melita as in the name of the Castle as it used to be called) was three times its present size during the Roman period. The Fatimids (northafricans/Arabs) reduced it to its present size after the re population from Sicily and re building a new after the town after destroyed to ruins during the Byzanitine era and left abounded for many years. They also build stronger walls for protection. Very few of the original walls remain. Most of the present walls were re constructed during the Knights of St John era.

Maleth
18-05-14, 12:51
http://www.phoenicia.org.uk/documents/Malta-Times.jpg
Malta Times - Phoenician replica vessel sails around Africa.
http://www.phoenicia.org.uk/documents/Malta-Times.jpg

"The Phoenicia, a replica 600 BC Phoenician merchant ship, sailed gracefully into Marsamxett harbour today on one of the final legs of an expedition covering 17,000 miles around Africa. The 20m long vessel, built using traditional methods, arrived from Carthage. It is recreating the first circumnavigation of Africa achieved some 2,600 years ago. Malta was an important trading outpost of the Phoenician people, who at the time were regarded as 'rulers of the sea'. They occupied what is now Lebanon and the coastal parts of Syria and Palestine.The Phoenician sphere of influence spread throughout the Mediterranean and their trading activities reached as far as Cornwall for tin, and Indian and China for spices and precious goods."
Times of Malta - History recreated as 'Phoenicia' sails in.
http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20100922/local/history-recreated-as-phoenicia-sails-in.328023

Thanks Rhas, I wasnt aware that a replica was done. Having two Phoenician temples on the Island and many punic tombs all over the island can only prove how important the Maltese Islands for the Phoenicians at that time. It is believed the Phoenicians that settled in the Maltese Islands where from Tyre.

RHAS
15-05-15, 16:44
"De plus, dans ces études, des comparaisons d’haplotypes entre des sites phéniciens et des sites non‐phéniciens ont permis de déterminer des haplogroupes avec une signature phénicienne : Haplogroupe J2 et particulièrement six short sequence repeat du chromosome Y."
Universite de Portiers - Multiples conséquences physiopathologiques de mutations et d'allèles complexes du gène CFTR.
http://nuxeo.edel.univ-poitiers.fr/n...e-4656d5674715

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/v/t1.0-9/557924_496350167089810_1350945969_n.jpg?oh=d830c05 04f6904e2a52f0c1384d691c7&oe=55CE1DDF&__gda__=1439819307_7357e46694d528d814f5d7140f4c238 8

"The presence of other Y-chromosomal haplogroups: E-V13, E-M81, E-M34, J1-M267, J2-M172, I1-M253, I2-P215 and G2a-P15 would be interpreted as a consequence of the genetic history linked to the Iberian Peninsula, especially, to Andalusia, with a long, prevailing contacts with the Mediterranean world. ... By contrast, the J2-M172 seems to be related to Greek and Phoenicians colonies that were well stablished at least from the first millennium BC in the Peninsula, particularly in littoral Andalusia."
Surnames and Y-Chromosomal Markers Reveal Low Relationships in Southern Spain.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0123098

https://scontent-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/11209732_935197806538375_2646926243166443729_n.jpg ?oh=46064215265d340ce8a9944a1ea47874&oe=55D54106

"The PCA also illustrate the genetic affinity of Levantine populations to Europeans especially Italians. In fact, both groups present relatively high frequencies of J-M172 and share some other lineages in particular I-M170 and T-M70. ... Sousse, particularly, possesses a relatively high frequency of haplogroup J-M172 (~9%) that is absent in all of the remaining Tunisian populations with the exception of Andalusians (~3%). Haplogroup J-M172 has been associated with population movements in the Fertile Crescent during the Neolithic Agricultural revolution. Today, it is very frequent in the Levant, Anatolia and Iran and its recent spread in the Mediterranean is believed to have been facilitated by the maritime trading culture of the Phoenicians (1550–300 BC). According to Zalloua and collaborators evidence of Phoenician influence in Tunisian is apparent by the presence of the J-M172 Y-chromosome haplogroup in coastal regions considered as areas of Phoenician contact (versus inland). ... The J-M172 haplogroup associated with the Phoenician expansion is distributed throughout the Mediterranean basin and Asia. It is thought that the Phoenicians originated in what is today coastal Lebanon and subsequently founded and settled several city-states in the Mediterranean including in North Africa. In Tunisia, their population number was estimated, at the end of their dominion, to be 100 000 compared with 500 000 Berbers. It is important to note that although the most famous city founded by the Phoenicians was Carthage, they also established the settlements of Utique and Sousse. Interestingly, Sousse is the only Phoenician town in Tunisia that has been continuously inhabited since its foundation and it is the only population where the J-M172 Phoenician paternal marker is detected. ... A more recent potential Middle Eastern genetic contribution to the North Africa gene pool may be associated with the expansion of the Ottoman Empire. Sousse also may have been specifically impacted by the Turkish occupation of North Africa. Yet, the unique presence of J-M172 in Sousse and its absence from other Tunisian regions that were under Ottoman influence argues for J-M172 in Sousse as a Phoenician signal."
Sousse: extreme genetic heterogeneity in North Africa.
http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v6...hg201499a.html

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/GiorcesBardo42.jpg
The great Latin poet, Virgil, holding a volume on which is written the Aenid. On either side stand the two muses: "Clio" (history) and "Melpomene" (tragedy). The mosaic, which dates from the 3rd Century A.D., was discovered in the Hadrumetum in Sousse, Tunisia and is now on display in the Bardo Museum in Tunis, Tunisia.

"Hadrume(n)tum (sometimes called Adrametum or Adrametus) was a Phoenician colony that pre-dated Carthage and stood on the site of modern-day Sousse, Tunisia. Greek writers referred to Hadrumentum by the names Ἀδρούμητος, Ἀδρύμης and Ἀδραμητός. ... In the 9th century BC, the Phoenicians, astute Levantine maritime traders who would later be supplanted in Northern Africa by their major colony Carthage, sensed the possibilities of a port city south of present-day Tunis and founded Hadrumetum on what is now the Gulf of Hammamet in the Mediterranean Sea. Hadrumetum was one of the most important communities within the Roman territory in northern Africa because of its strategic location on the sea in the heart of the fertile Sahel region. The city allied itself with Rome during the Punic Wars, thereby escaping damage or ruin and entered a relatively peaceful 700-year stint under Pax Romana, although Hannibal made use of it as a military base in his campaign against Scipio Africanus at the close of the Second Punic War. Many records have been found that say the Romans sent a garrison of 5000 soldiers to protect it. They were led by General Septus Loriinus. At some point during this period, the community's name was slightly altered (by the addition of an N) to become Hadrumentum. Under the Roman Empire, Hadrumetum became very prosperous; Trajan gave it the rank of a colonia: "Colonia Concordia Ulpia Trajana Augusta Frugifera Hadrumetina". A breathtaking legacy of intricate Roman mosaics survives from this era, together with many early Christian objects from the catacombs"
Wikipedia - Hadrumentum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadrumetum


Haplogroup J2 & Phoenicians (Carthage).

"By the collapse of the Late Bronze Age societies (approximately 3200 YBP), the Mediterranean Basin underwent different waves of invasion, particularly by the Greeks of the Aegean Sea and, to a lower extent, by Levantine (Phoenicians) groups. Both of them established a set of different colonies along the Mediterranean coasts of Southern Europe and North Africa. The Phoenician colony of Carthage (present-day Tunisia), given its geographic proximity to Sicily, may have played an important role in the colonization of this region. Previous Y-chromosome genetic studies on the Phoenician colonization demonstrated that haplogroup J2 in general, and six haplotypes in particular (PCS1+ through PCS6+), may potentially have represented lineages linked with the spread of the Phoenicians (“Phoenician Colonization Signal”) into the Mediterranean. At this respect, it is worth noting the presence of 4 PCS+ haplotypes (namely PCS1+, PCS2+, PCS4+, PCS5+; [51]) in 9 samples of our Sicilian and Southern Italian dataset, particularly belonging to haplogroups J1-M267 (n = 2), J2-M410* (n = 1), J2-M67 (n = 5), and J2-M12 (n = 2). However, sub-lineages of haplogroup J2 have been also associated with the Neolithic colonization of mainland Greece, Crete and Southern Italy, and our TMRCA estimates for J2-subhaplogroups (ranging from 3271±1157 YBP to 3767±1332 YBP) cannot exclude an earlier arrival of at least some of the J2 chromosomes in Sicily and Southern-Italy during Neolithic times."
An Ancient Mediterranean Melting Pot: Investigating the Uniparental Genetic Structure and Population History of Sicily and Southern Italy
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi/10.1371/journal.pone.0096074#pone-0096074-t001

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-y1RKh1-RnPk/UneriLQexZI/AAAAAAAAG8s/GqL7evhRhV4/s1600/colonies.png

"The results regarding my paternal genetics were identified as belonging to Haplogroup J2 (M172). This genetic marker dates back to roughly 15 000 yrs ago and is found predominately in the Fertile Crescent. Most prevalent in Southern Italy, Turkey, Greece, Lebanon, Cyprus and several other countries around the Mediterranean and Caucasus region, some sources claim that these are the genes of the ancient Phoenicians who may have settled in the Roman Empire long ago."
Livelearngrow.ca - My Roots.
http://livelearngrow.ca/category/my-roots/

"The excess of haplogroup J2, and PC1+ to PS3+ in coastal Tunisia, the site of Carthage, compared to inland Tunisian populations is exceptionally significant, and suggests that the Roman destruction of Carthage did not eliminate the Carthaginian gene pool."
Anthropology.net - The Y-Chromosomal Footprint Of Phoenicians Throughout The Mediterranean.
http://anthropology.net/2008/10/30/the-y-chromosomal-footprint-of-phoenicians-throughout-the-mediterranean/

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Gu%C3%A9rin_%C3%89n%C3%A9e_racontant_%C3%A0_Didon_ les_malheurs_de_la_ville_de_Troie_Louvre_5184.jpg
Aeneas recounting the Trojan War to Dido, a painting by Pierre-Narcisse Guérin. This scene is taken from Virgil's Aeneid, where Dido falls in love with, only to be left by, the Trojan hero Aeneas.

"Dido (/ˈdaɪdoʊ/ DY-doh) was, according to ancient Greek and Roman sources, the founder and first Queen of Carthage (in modern-day Tunisia). She is best known from the account given by the Roman poet Virgil in his Aeneid. ...... The person of Dido can be traced to references by Roman historians to lost writings of Timaeus of Tauromenium in Sicily (c. 356–260 BC)."
Wikipedia.org - Dido (Queen of Carthage)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dido_(Queen_of_Carthage)

Salmon
21-09-15, 21:27
Italy was the center of the world for a long time. It was the capital of the Roman Empire. People in the Empire aspired to earn Roman citizenship and move to Rome.

Italy also become the center of Christianity. The Roman Empire Semitized when Constantine declared Christianity a state religion. Roman subjects started taking on Semitic names. The Romans established colonies in J2 heavy areas... Africa(Tunisia), Syria-Palestine, and Egypt. They Romanized J2s. The land formerly known as Carthage produced a lot of food, lots of grain. J2 sailors may have loaded up the grain on ships and shipped it all over the Empire.

Take into account the provinces, Chritianization, and the importance of J2 heavy provinces to Rome. Also take into account Phoenicians. There was the big Jewish diaspora where the Romans sacked Judaea. Assyrians were also waging wars in J2 heavy areas. People may have fled.

J2's likely bled into Europe and Italy in waves throughout the centuries. We have a modern crisis right now where Syrians have taken land and Mediterranean marine routes into Europe to escape a war.

Europe is seeing an influx of J1 and J2 refugees.

- Phoenicians
- Carthaginians
- Romanized J2s
- ancient war refugees
- ancient people forcibly displaced by military actions
- traders