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Lombard
28-01-14, 12:34
Hello, I'm new here.
I've made a test with 23&Me and my haplogroups seems to be R1b-U152 (paternal) and H1m (maternal).
The exact result of the paternal one is R1b1b2a1a2d*. What does it mean exactly?
I guess R1b-U152 is Italo-Celtic (but Italic or Celtic?) and H1m?
I come from Bergamo, Northern Italy.

Thank you.

John123
28-01-14, 13:58
You are Italo-Celtic; your very town of origin was founded by the Cenomani, a tribe of Gauls from northwestern France. Your paternal marker makes a lot of sense considering you are north italian and that the nearest nation to your region (Lombardy) is Switzerland. These regions of Italy have the highest R1b-U152/R-S28 frequencies in the world. Switzerland has astronomical levels as well (50%) same as north italy. Invading Gauls (Gallia cisalpina) would have brought heavy amounts of this marker to your region of origin. Your maternal H is also very European in origin, and could have possibly been brought by the same people/women that followed your paternal ancestors movements, from France (northwest for Cenomani) through Switzerland towards north/west-central italy. You fit very accurately the part of the northern italian DNA; just another north-italian of Gallic origin; no Scandinavo-Germanic/Lombard I1 : ). Your results are very normal for your region.

Lombard
28-01-14, 15:47
You are Italo-Celtic; your very town of origin was founded by the Cenomani, a tribe of Gauls from northwestern France. Your paternal marker makes a lot of sense considering you are north italian and that the nearest nation to your region (Lombardy) is Switzerland. These regions of Italy have the highest R1b-U152/R-S28 frequencies in the world. Switzerland has astronomical levels as well (50%) same as north italy. Invading Gauls (Gallia cisalpina) would have brought heavy amounts of this marker to your region of origin. Your maternal H is also very European in origin, and could have possibly been brought by the same people/women that followed your paternal ancestors movements, from France (northwest for Cenomani) through Switzerland towards north/west-central italy. You fit very accurately the part of the northern italian DNA; just another north-italian of Gallic origin; no Scandinavo-Germanic/Lombard I1 : ). Your results are very normal for your region.

Yes, according to McDonald: "Very very few people I test test
as plain “Italian”, “Tuscan” is much more common. But you are expected
to be “Italian” since our comparison people labeled Italian
were all actually from Bergamo."

The doubt is: my Italo-Celtic branch is Italic (Roman settler) or Gaulish (Protoceltic of Golasecca/Gaulish invader of 388 b.C.)?

John123
28-01-14, 16:20
Bergamo was anciently cenomani territory and they came during the Gallic invasions led by bellovesus as the aedui, arverni, carnutes, lingones, senones etc. did. I will postulate your ancestors arrived via northwestern France during a historically documented invasion of 300,000 men. This migration would have taken place about 2,500 years ago, celts of Gallic stock swarming the plains of north italy.

John123
28-01-14, 16:23
You should change your name to "Gallic Celt", not Lombard lol. The Lombards where Germanic ethnicity, arriving via southern Scandinavia and didnt affect italy that much (5%), they brought I1. The Gauls where of Celtic stock and from France/Switzerland and parts of Belgium predominantly, they harboured the R1b U-152 line. They would heavily affect italy in a manner in which still today the worlds highest R-S28 frequencies are in Italy, and it is the most frequent subclade found in Italians. There are pockets of north-central and north-western italy where 50% of men are positive for R-S28. Tuscany has 40% all across it. Switzerland has 50% nationally. France has 20%.

John123
28-01-14, 16:31
Bellovesus was a legendary Gallic king. He lived around 600 BCE and is remembered for invading northern Italy with his people during the legendary reign of the 5th king of Rome, Tarquinius Priscus (from 616 BCE to 579 BCE), although archeology would associate Gallic expansion into Italy to around 500 BCE.
The historical writer Livius marks that he was the son of the sister of the king Ambigatus. His family belonged to the tribe of Bituriges, which were at this time the most powerful Gaulic tribe and in each case placed therefore the king of all Gaul. In this time, the Gaulish people were suffering from overpopulation, so that it became necessary to open new settlement areas. Bellovesus and his brother Segovesus were entrusted with this task. While Segovesus was chosen by the gods — that is, by lot, got an indication to look in the Hercynian Forest for new areas to settle — Bellovesus was led to upper Italy.
Bellovesus allegedly led a group of six surplus tribes forward over the Alps: Bituriges, Arverni, Senones, Aedui, Ambarri, Carnutes, and Aulerci.[1] The Alps represented an insurmountable hurdle for the course however first. Only after Bellovesus received support from the Greeks, who in the area of the Salyes had landed and established the port-city of Massilia (Marseille) in c. 600 BCE, did Bellovesus follow a divine sign and succeed in the crossing of the Alps through a pass in the area of Taurini. Having arrived in Italy, the Gauls defeated the Etruscans at the Ticino River and settled in an area which was later called Insubria. Here Bellovesus founded the city of Mediolanum, the modern Milan.

John123
28-01-14, 16:34
Bituriges, Arverni, Senones, Aedui, Ambarri, Carnutes, and Aulerci,lingones. Find these tribes on a map of ancient France (ancient Gaul map) and you will see from where these migrants moved to italy. Some tribes fusion end and settled in Insubres territory (Lombardy). You can still see lingones, senones, cenomani, Carni (carnutes) on ancient maps of Italy. The Veneti may have made the migration too, who knows. Bellovesus and his confederation of tribes founded the city of milan in Lombardy, anciently known by the Celtic named "Mediolanum"

Lombard
28-01-14, 16:39
You should change your name to "Gallic Celt", not Lombard lol. The Lombards where Germanic ethnicity, arriving via southern Scandinavia and didnt affect italy that much (5%), they brought I1. The Gauls where of Celtic stock and from France/Switzerland and parts of Belgium predominantly, they harboured the R1b U-152 line. They would heavily affect italy in a manner in which still today the worlds highest R-S28 frequencies are in Italy, and it is the most frequent subclade found in Italians. There are pockets of north-central and north-western italy where 50% of men are positive for R-S28. Tuscany has 40% all across it. Switzerland has 50% nationally. France has 20%.

"Lombard" means from Lombardy, Bergamo is in Lombardy. In Italian, inhabitant of Lombardy sounds "Lombardo" and "Longobardo" an ancient Germanic invader.

Lombard
28-01-14, 16:42
Bituriges, Arverni, Senones, Aedui, Ambarri, Carnutes, and Aulerci,lingones. Find these tribes on a map of ancient France (ancient Gaul map) and you will see from where these migrants moved to italy. Some tribes fusion end and settled in Insubres territory (Lombardy). You can still see lingones, senones, cenomani, Carni (carnutes) on ancient maps of Italy. The Veneti may have made the migration too, who knows. Bellovesus and his confederation of tribes founded the city of milan in Lombardy, anciently known by the Celtic named "Mediolanum"

I know the history of my region, mate. My question was genetic: how could I determine if my haplogroup is Celtic or Italic, since R1b-U152 is the same haplogroup of Romans and Gauls?
I would curious to know more about my maternal H1m as well.

Sile
28-01-14, 19:43
"Lombard" means from Lombardy, Bergamo is in Lombardy. In Italian, inhabitant of Lombardy sounds "Lombardo" and "Longobardo" an ancient Germanic invader.

The ancient Bergamo was settled firstly by the Orobii
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orobii
Orobii are ancient gallic-ligurians

The cenomanni passed through and settled in Brescia and verona with Brescia being their capital.

The term bergamo in gentics means the area incorporating , lombardy, eastern swiss, all the tyrols, veneto and piedmont.

In late 2013, a conference stated that R-U152 originated in west central Germany ( before there where germans) and moved south along the rhine river and crossed over the alps into North west italy.

2 weeks ago, a new paper discovered 27 Celtic skeletons in west central Germany ( hesse area)

Sile
28-01-14, 19:51
Hello, I'm new here.
I've made a test with 23&Me and my haplogroups seems to be R1b-U152 (paternal) and H1m (maternal).
The exact result of the paternal one is R1b1b2a1a2d*. What does it mean exactly?
I guess R1b-U152 is Italo-Celtic (but Italic or Celtic?) and H1m?
I come from Bergamo, Northern Italy.

Thank you.

you sure they gave you the correct letering for r1b1b2a1a2d*?

I have not seen any further than R1b1b .........which equal M335

or it it meant to be R1b1a2a2 which would be L584 ?

23andme has not upgraded their tree since 2008

Sile
28-01-14, 20:01
Yes, according to McDonald: "Very very few people I test test
as plain “Italian”, “Tuscan” is much more common. But you are expected
to be “Italian” since our comparison people labeled Italian
were all actually from Bergamo."

The doubt is: my Italo-Celtic branch is Italic (Roman settler) or Gaulish (Protoceltic of Golasecca/Gaulish invader of 388 b.C.)?




what does this mean

He wrote to me and said, Tuscan = central and south italy and italian means north italy in his references?

actually this is backwards of most genetic admixture sites

Lombard
28-01-14, 20:20
you sure they gave you the correct letering for r1b1b2a1a2d*?

I have not seen any further than R1b1b .........which equal M335

or it it meant to be R1b1a2a2 which would be L584 ?

23andme has not upgraded their tree since 2008

R1b1b2a1a2d* is R1b-U152, the Italo-Gaulish one (or Alpo-Celtic, Hallstatt-La Tène).
23&Me gives the old nomenclature.

Lombard
28-01-14, 20:21
what does this mean

He wrote to me and said, Tuscan = central and south italy and italian means north italy in his references?

actually this is backwards of most genetic admixture sites

According to his database "Italians" means "North Italians", the famous Bergamo sample. And I'm from Bergamo Province.

John123
29-01-14, 15:39
History of Bergamo; first phrase: "Bergamo occupies the site of the ancient town of Bergomum, founded as a settlement of the Celtic tribe of Cenomani."

John123
29-01-14, 15:43
As a side note, the ancient province of Rhaetia aligns well with high's of G and T but not J2, for a very odd reason considering they branched off from the Etruscans. Sort of extreme eastern Switzerland/southernmost Bavaria/Tyrol region. Maybe the Rhaetians explain T in the Veneto region as well? Ancient Greeks may also be an explanation for Veneto though as some E-V13 is present there as well.

jfjoubert
27-04-14, 07:25
Hello! I am R1b1b2a1a2d as well.
From Quebec... originally Poitou, France. If you find more info about R1b1b2a1a2d please let me know!

jfjoubert
27-04-14, 07:39
Perhaps I should be more specific... does anyone know how R1b1b2a1a2d can to be found in Poitou? And how it relates (or does not) with "British ancestry" the figures of 23and me show me twice as much British than French... (the terms are obviously imprecise...)

Pax Augusta
07-09-14, 12:32
The doubt is: my Italo-Celtic branch is Italic (Roman settler) or Gaulish (Protoceltic of Golasecca/Gaulish invader of 388 b.C.)?


It could be both.

Italics before arrived in Central Italy they settled in North Italy.

And populations like the Umbrians were probably originally spread also in North Italy.

Pax Augusta
07-09-14, 12:43
what does this mean

He wrote to me and said, Tuscan = central and south italy and italian means north italy in his references?

actually this is backwards of most genetic admixture sites

It doesn't make any sense. Tuscans are Central Italians not Southern Italians that have a different genetics history.

Pax Augusta
07-09-14, 12:52
You should change your name to "Gallic Celt", not Lombard lol.

Lombard (Lombardi in Italian) are the modern-day inhabitants of a region of northern Italy: Lombardia (Lombardy in english). In Italian the Germanic people are called Longobardi. I don't understand the reason why in English you use Lombard for both, modern-day Italians and ancient Germanic people, making all this confusion.




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