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So basically the western half has more to do with North Africa than eastern half?
Wait for Drac's insults ,tap, tap, tap feet.................but yes looks like the "north Africans" entered Spain and moved along the western side........there is very good sheep country there, I wonder if that was the reason
Wait for Drac's insults ,tap, tap, tap feet.................but yes looks like the "north Africans" entered Spain and moved along the western side........there is very good sheep country there, I wonder if that was the reason
So basically the western half has more to do with North Africa than eastern half?
You don't get it. The pattern of north-african input do not follow the patterns of Islamic rule. Ironically, in Granada, which is the only place of Iberia that lasted the full 780 years under islamic rule, has very low north-african, in fact lower than many parts of Northern Iberia from a Haplogroups prespective, specifically via E-M81/U6, and plenty of R1b (70% in East-Andalusia) which confirms this East-West gradient.Wait for Drac's insults ,tap, tap, tap feet.................but yes looks like the "north Africans" entered Spain and moved along the western side........there is very good sheep country there, I wonder if that was the reason
You don't get it. The pattern of north-african input do not follow the patterns of Islamic rule. Ironically, in Granada, which is the only place of Iberia that lasted the full 780 years under islamic rule, has very low north-african, in fact lower than many parts of Northern Iberia from a Haplogroups prespective, specifically via E-M81/U6, and plenty of R1b (70% in East-Andalusia) which confirms this East-West gradient.
It's been known for quite some time that the gradient for the uniparental markers was east/west and not north/south here, so I don't see that the paper adds very much to our understanding of these matters.
The only way to get some handle on the issue would seem to be through dating of very specific subclades of both the ydna and the mtdna. The time depths involved with mtdna might make conclusions difficult to draw, but the ydna questions might be easier. Still, that would require the sort of resolution for the "E" clades that is now available for the "R" clades. In the case of "R", the impetus for that work came from the hobbyist community in countries with high levels of ydna "R". Unfortunately, I don't see that hobbyist interest in resolving and dating the "E" clades.
So, that said, it's unclear whether the E-M81 found in Iberia today, for example, is neolithic or from later Muslim expansions, or both. Of course, the source is still North Africa, regardless of the dating.
Historical records aren't very helpful either. Obviously, none are available for the Neolithic, and there is an absolute dearth of data on the period of the Arab/Moorish domination of Iberia. The same problem existed in Sicily and southern Italy. History is written by the last victors, and the Normans and their successors didn't leave much information behind about their predecessors. That has been rectified for Sicily in the last couple of decades, as Sicilian scholars and English language scholars as well have turned to the Muslim sources for information. I'm not aware of any similar English language treatments of Spain for that era, which is surprising. Indeed, I'm not aware of any modern Spanish language treatment of the issue either. I would certainly be interested in reading it if one was available. For instance, it would be helpful in resolving the questions concerning the cline to know the extent of the relocations of the Spanish population following the expulsions of the Moors and the Jews.
There where many different migrational groups entering iberia from the south before the moors entered. The Numidians, Carthaginians, Phoenicians, to name just 3
E marker was in Spain before the moors arrived
'The registered frequencies of Eurasian markers, together with the high incidence and diversification of African maternal lineages (15% of the total mitochondrial variability) among Huelva Andalusians'
Huelva was the Moorish Walbah;
And by the looks of it it still is; Especially the sub-saharan mtDNA L seems to have stuck;
Perhaps you would care to explain the relevance of the link to material on Italian genetics?
The thread Sile started is on Iberian mtdna.
It's been known for quite some time that the gradient for the uniparental markers was east/west and not north/south here, so I don't see that the paper adds very much to our understanding of these matters.
The only way to get some handle on the issue would seem to be through dating of very specific subclades of both the ydna and the mtdna. The time depths involved with mtdna might make conclusions difficult to draw, but the ydna questions might be easier. Still, that would require the sort of resolution for the "E" clades that is now available for the "R" clades. In the case of "R", the impetus for that work came from the hobbyist community in countries with high levels of ydna "R". Unfortunately, I don't see that hobbyist interest in resolving and dating the "E" clades.
So, that said, it's unclear whether the E-M81 found in Iberia today, for example, is neolithic or from later Muslim expansions, or both. Of course, the source is still North Africa, regardless of the dating.
Historical records aren't very helpful either. Obviously, none are available for the Neolithic, and there is an absolute dearth of data on the period of the Arab/Moorish domination of Iberia. The same problem existed in Sicily and southern Italy. History is written by the last victors, and the Normans and their successors didn't leave much information behind about their predecessors. That has been rectified for Sicily in the last couple of decades, as Sicilian scholars and English language scholars as well have turned to the Muslim sources for information. I'm not aware of any similar English language treatments of Spain for that era, which is surprising. Indeed, I'm not aware of any modern Spanish language treatment of the issue either. I would certainly be interested in reading it if one was available. For instance, it would be helpful in resolving the questions concerning the cline to know the extent of the relocations of the Spanish population following the expulsions of the Moors and the Jews.
'The registered frequencies of Eurasian markers, together with the high incidence and diversification of African maternal lineages (15% of the total mitochondrial variability) among Huelva Andalusians'
Huelva was the Moorish Walbah;
And by the looks of it it still is; Especially the sub-saharan mtDNA L seems to have stuck;
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_mtdna_haplogroups_frequency.shtml
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo..._pco=smlwn-1.0&at_tot=1&at_ab=per-12&at_pos=0
http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml#at_pco=smlwn-1.0&at_tot=1&at_ab=per-12&at_pos=0
You are right partly Drac, they can compare the galiciens which have never known occupation Muslim.
Yes, or Asturians and Cantabrians too. In fact, the areas of Iberia that had the least of any Islamic presence whatsoever, are in fact higher in these supposedly "Moorish" markers, once again contrary to historical evidence and thus arguing against the very convenient so-called explanations of some people.
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