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Alan
03-02-14, 22:40
Finally my first Results.
yDNA
6224

mtDNA
6225


I have a few questions regarding my y and mtdna. I will ask them later.

Edit. very likely my yDNA is R1a1a1 and mtDNA HV2a1.

Alan
03-02-14, 23:15
yDNA Haplogroup Tree and Global Similarity Map (Green dot is me).

6226 6227

Goga
04-02-14, 15:43
Thanks for sharing.

Goga
04-02-14, 15:59
yDNA Haplogroup Tree and Global Similarity Map (Green dot is me).

6227
Very interesting, I'm a slightly more 'SouthCentral Asian', I guess...

http://imageshack.com/a/img835/2006/okef.jpg

Alan
04-02-14, 17:14
Very interesting, I'm a slightly more 'SouthCentral Asian', I guess...

http://imageshack.com/a/img835/2006/okef.jpg


You are in the far edge of the European cluster and likely closer to the East European/Caucasus/SouthCentral Asian cline than I am.


As far as my father told. My origin is paternal grandfather Southeastern Anatolian Kurd. paternal grandmother is also Southeastern from Hasankeyf. My maternal grandfather is from Mardin but with some ancestry from Qamishli from Syrian Kurdistan. And my maternal grandmother is from Qamishli in Syrian Kurdistan. I likely have more EastMed/Southern admixture makes sense considering most of my ancestry is from Turkish- and some from Syrian Kurdistan.

Sile
04-02-14, 19:52
You are in the far edge of the European cluster and likely closer to the East European/Caucasus/SouthCentral Asian cline than I am.


As far as my father told. My origin is paternal grandfather Southeastern Anatolian Kurd. paternalgrandmother is also Southeastern from Hasankeyf. My maternal grandfather is from Mardin and Qamishli from Syrian Kurdistan. And my maternal grandmother is from Qamishli in Syrian Kurdistan. I likely have less Gedrosia more EastMed/Southern admixture makes sense considering most of my ancestry is from Syrian and Turkish Kurdistan.

where do you sit if u click the european box?

Alan
04-02-14, 21:44
where do you sit if u click the european box?



It's weird, I am neither in the Near Eastern nor in the European box. I appear to be exactly between the Druze and Southeastern European samples what somehow makes sense considering my origin being 3/9 Syrian and 6/9 Southeast Anatolian (North Mesopotamian) Kurd. Some of my Kurdish connections are also neither in one of the clusters but two other Goga and some other Kurd appear on the edge of the European Cluster. Very close but outside of the East European cluster.

Also another thing which caught my attention. According to 23andMe and my Haplogroup Tree, my yDNA fits in non of the known clusters R1a1a1/R1a1a2/R1a1a3/R1a1a4/R1a1a5 but it is directly connected to the R1a1a* root. So my clade must be either a yet unknown cluster or ancestral?
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6226&d=1391462135

Goga
04-02-14, 22:13
It's weird, I am neither in the European nor in the Near Eastern box. You're not the only Kurd who's neither in European nor in the Near Easter box. There's no box for the Kurds, we need our own box, hahaha. I've got 7 other Kurds in my list and none of them are in the European or in the Near Eastern box. I see only myself and other Kurd in the European box, but not in the Near Easter box if I zoom in. I'm green dot, and other Kurd (Alevi Kurmanji) from Dersim is black dot.
http://imageshack.com/a/img845/8899/b2ob.jpg

Alan
04-02-14, 22:16
You're not the only Kurd who's neither in European nor in the Near Easter box. There's no box for the Kurds, we need our own box, hahaha. I've got 7 other Kurds in my list and none of them are in the European or in the Near Eastern box. I see only myself and other Kurd in the European box, but not in the Near Easter box if I zoom in. I'm green dot, and other Kurd (Alevi Kurmanji from Dersim is black dot.
http://imageshack.com/a/img845/8899/b2ob.jpg

Yes I wrote that (edited) above. You and another Kurd appear inside buton the eastern edge of the European cluster.

Goga
04-02-14, 22:17
Yes I wrote that (edited) above. You and another Kurd appear inside but at the far edge of the European cluster. Close but outside of the East European cluster.Maybe those East Europeans are actually from the Balkans? I've got the feeling that the closest Europeans to Kurds are people from the Balkans. At least somehow I feel me much connected to the South Slavic speaking Balkan folks than to any other European populations. On the other side, Kurds are native to the Zagros Mountains. But there must be a connection between the Balkans and Kurdistan. Maybe paternal hg. 'I2a' or 'E' or maybe 'Iranic' aDNA in Europe, on the European side of the Black Sea...

kamani
05-02-14, 00:52
Maybe those East Europeans are actually from the Balkans? I've got the feeling that the closest Europeans to Kurds are people from the Balkans. At least somehow I feel me much connected to the South Slavic speaking Balkan folks than to any other European populations.
If you want to know the order of who is closest to you in the Europe: 1.Greeks 2.Albanians 3.Bulgarians/Macedonians 4.Italians 5.Ex Jugoslavs.

Alan
05-02-14, 11:51
I shared my data with other Kurds + a American guy with pred. French ancestry and same Haplogroup. The weird thing in my genome wide comparison, the closest to me of all of them is that American guy.

I share a whole lot of 2% more with him than with the next closest Kurd in my list (who is R1a1a without the * his Haplogroup is infront of ours in the Haplogroup Tree). Me and the American share 76.35%, while me and the next closest Kurd share 74.51%.

Could that be an error. Since he also told me that he shares more genes with me than his own blood cousins.

Knovas
05-02-14, 13:42
The ones you share 74% or lower is beacuse they were tested using the v2 chip version. So the comparisson pattern is no the same at all, new chips should show at least 75% (only valid in your case for West Eurasian-like individuals, maybe with the exception of some North Africans).

Congratulations on getting your results.

Alan
05-02-14, 13:47
That was explained to me a few minutes ago. The Kurdish individuals were sampled with v3 and the French guy with v4. It just made me wonder because he wrote to me that he shares more genes with me than his own blood cousins. Now that was really weird :)

Thanks Knovas.

Knovas
05-02-14, 14:04
Is there an v4 chip? if so, then your genome comparisons will be useless with the vast majority of 23andme users (v3 dominant). You'll have to share with other v4 tested Kurds to probably find the highest similarities.

How much % you and Goga share? (I guess he's v4). Anyway, belonging to the same ethnic group not always works. My highest similarities are mostly Angloamerican descent, with some Iberians and Basques.

Alan
05-02-14, 14:12
Is there an v4 chip? if so, then your genome comparisons will be useless with the vast majority of 23andme users (v3 dominant). You'll have to share with other v4 tested Kurds to probably find the highest similarities.

How much % you and Goga share? (I guess he's v4). Anyway, belonging to the same ethnic group not always works. My highest similarities are mostly Angloamerican descent, with some Iberians and Basques.

Yes there is, and my results are in v4. I share 74.38% with Goga.

Knovas
05-02-14, 14:19
WOW! then it seems that the pattern of the v4 version resembles v2 (the difference regarding SNPs tested is surely pretty significant though). Until you have shared with lots of v4 you can't know how relevant is this similarity. You'll have to discover it yourself comparing results.

Alan
05-02-14, 14:52
WOW! then it seems that the pattern of the v4 version resembles v2 (the difference regarding SNPs tested is surely pretty significant though). Until you haven't shared with lots of v4 you can't know how relevant is this similarity. You'll have to discover it yourself comparing results.

When compared results I indeed score something between the average Northern (Turkey) Kurd and Southern (Iraq)+Eastern(Iran) Kurd but with slightly more Atlantic_Med than average, which can be explained with my Western (Syrian) Kurdish admixture.

On geographic maps I end up exactly in the heart of Kurdistan somewhere between the border of Turkey and Iraq.

Maciamo
05-02-14, 15:11
Alan, it's not because 23andMe didn't find your deep subclade of R1a1a that it hasn't been identified yet. 23andMe has updated the defining SNP's for haplogroups in over two years. You might be able to determine it yourself by looking at the ISOGG list of SNP's (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNA_SNP_Index.html). Open your raw data with a text editor, then search for the SNP by rsid or position. Not many new SNP's are tested by 23andMe, but there might be a few downstream R1a1a. I haven't checked though. Note that the position used by 23andMe aren't the same as in ISOGG, but you can get the 23andMe position by searching for the SNP in the NCBI database. 23andMe uses the NCBI36 position, while ISOGG uses the GRCh37.p10. For example, the M417 mutation (rs17316771 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/SNP/snp_ref.cgi?rs=17316771)) has the position 8533735 at ISOGG but 8593735 at 23andMe. In this case they are very similar, but they can also be completely different.

Armoricain
05-02-14, 18:47
Maciamo, Is it possible to do the same with haplogroup I1*, to determine the subclade myself by looking
at the ISOGG list of SNP's ?

Alan
05-02-14, 19:39
This is from Eurogenes K15 mixed mode.

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 59.2% Iranian + 40.8% Armenian @ 3.19
2 74.6% Kurdish + 25.4% Armenian @ 3.59
3 85.8% Kurdish + 14.2% Assyrian @ 3.96
4 98.9% Kurdish + 1.1% Mayan @ 4.06
5 99% Kurdish + 1% Pima @ 4.07
6 99% Kurdish + 1% North_Amerindian @ 4.12
7 96% Kurdish + 4% Lebanese_Christian @ 4.13
8 99.3% Kurdish + 0.7% Yoruban @ 4.14
9 95.4% Kurdish + 4.6% Syrian @ 4.14
10 99.3% Kurdish + 0.7% Mandenka @ 4.15
11 96.6% Kurdish + 3.4% Samaritan @ 4.15
12 96.1% Kurdish + 3.9% Cyprian @ 4.15
13 99.3% Kurdish + 0.7% Bantu_S.W. @ 4.15
14 99.3% Kurdish + 0.7% Bantu_S.E. @ 4.15
15 99.3% Kurdish + 0.7% Biaka_Pygmy @ 4.16
16 96.5% Kurdish + 3.5% Georgian @ 4.16
17 97.2% Kurdish + 2.8% Ashkenazi @ 4.17
18 99.3% Kurdish + 0.7% Luhya @ 4.17
19 99.3% Kurdish + 0.7% Bantu_N.E. @ 4.17
20 98.3% Kurdish + 1.7% Algerian @ 4.17


Unlike most other Kurds I have some real Sub Saharan African admixture (0.5% noise but there) while if most other Kurds have some, it is East or North African related.It could (doesn't need) have to do with Levantine admixture, but than it could also be ancient gene flow from Africa to Near East Bantu

What is also interesting I seem to have some additional Northern Amerindian/Mayan admixture. and additional EastMed admixture compared to the average is also visible.

I wasn't exactly right about me being between Anatolian/Syrian and Iraqi/Iranian Kurds. I am mostly Northern Kurdish according to my results but with more tendency to Iraqi and Iranian Kurds than the average Northern Kurd. And I also have more affinities to Atlanntic_Med as the average of the 23andme tested Kurds. I appear mostly as Northern and Western Kurd (Anatolian) but with more tendency towards Eastern and Southern Kurds.

Alan
05-02-14, 19:48
Alan, it's not because 23andMe didn't find your deep subclade of R1a1a that it hasn't been identified yet. 23andMe has updated the defining SNP's for haplogroups in over two years. You might be able to determine it yourself by looking at the ISOGG list of SNP's (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNA_SNP_Index.html). Open your raw data with a text editor, then search for the SNP by rsid or position. Not many new SNP's are tested by 23andMe, but there might be a few downstream R1a1a. I haven't checked though. Note that the position used by 23andMe aren't the same as in ISOGG, but you can get the 23andMe position by searching for the SNP in the NCBI database. 23andMe uses the NCBI36 position, while ISOGG uses the GRCh37.p10. For example, the M417 mutation (rs17316771 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/SNP/snp_ref.cgi?rs=17316771)) has the position 8533735 at ISOGG but 8593735 at 23andMe. In this case they are very similar, but they can also be completely different.

I am not that knowledgeable in this area. I tried to search for "rs17316771 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/SNP/snp_ref.cgi?rs=17316771)", 8533735 and 8593735 in the txt. data but couldn't find these mutations.

Alan
05-02-14, 22:21
Alan, it's not because 23andMe didn't find your deep subclade of R1a1a that it hasn't been identified yet. 23andMe has updated the defining SNP's for haplogroups in over two years. You might be able to determine it yourself by looking at the ISOGG list of SNP's (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNA_SNP_Index.html). Open your raw data with a text editor, then search for the SNP by rsid or position. Not many new SNP's are tested by 23andMe, but there might be a few downstream R1a1a. I haven't checked though. Note that the position used by 23andMe aren't the same as in ISOGG, but you can get the 23andMe position by searching for the SNP in the NCBI database. 23andMe uses the NCBI36 position, while ISOGG uses the GRCh37.p10. For example, the M417 mutation (rs17316771 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/SNP/snp_ref.cgi?rs=17316771)) has the position 8533735 at ISOGG but 8593735 at 23andMe. In this case they are very similar, but they can also be completely different.

Maciamo I went through the ISOGG list of SNP's. I tried to search the specific mutations in my raw data. Expect these few I couldn't find any of the other listed mutations in my data.

These are the one I found.





















Y-position (GRCh37)
SNP/Other Names
Haplogroup
Mutation in ISOOG list
Mutation in my raw data


15030752
M198
R1a1a
C -> T
T









19375294
M514
R1a1a
C -> T
T











Couldn't find any of the other listed R1a1a* SNP's/mutations.

Alan
06-02-14, 00:52
Alan, it's not because 23andMe didn't find your deep subclade of R1a1a that it hasn't been identified yet. 23andMe has updated the defining SNP's for haplogroups in over two years. You might be able to determine it yourself by looking at the ISOGG list of SNP's (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNA_SNP_Index.html). Open your raw data with a text editor, then search for the SNP by rsid or position. Not many new SNP's are tested by 23andMe, but there might be a few downstream R1a1a. I haven't checked though. Note that the position used by 23andMe aren't the same as in ISOGG, but you can get the 23andMe position by searching for the SNP in the NCBI database. 23andMe uses the NCBI36 position, while ISOGG uses the GRCh37.p10. For example, the M417 mutation (rs17316771 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/SNP/snp_ref.cgi?rs=17316771)) has the position 8533735 at ISOGG but 8593735 at 23andMe. In this case they are very similar, but they can also be completely different.

Maciamo I was told that 23andMe already uses Build 37 since 2012 and that the ISOOG list of 2014 is basically build 37. https://www.23andme.com/you/download/revisions/

Alan
06-02-14, 22:07
Someone on 23andme gave me this information.

Hi,
You can check your Y-DNA Haplogroup R1a1a* more deeply by use your 23&me raw data. If your rs34297606 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs34297606) Y 14498990 T, you are R1a1a1. Maybe it's only for person who have recent analysis with a new chip V4. No sure about.
My current Y-DNA haplogroup - R1a1a1.
Good luck!

M198 R1a1a 15030752 i3000048 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=i3000048) C->T
M514 R1a1a 19375294 rs17315926 C->T
M515 R1a1a 14054623 rs17221601 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs17221601) T->A
PF6238 R1a1a 15030752 i3000048 C->T
Page7 R1a1a1 14498990 rs34297606 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs34297606) C->T


All the way down to rs34297606 (https://www.23andme.com/you/explorer/snp/?snp_name=rs34297606) I am positive but downstream I am not. So I must be R1a1a1

Alan
07-02-14, 13:28
You're not the only Kurd who's neither in European nor in the Near Easter box. There's no box for the Kurds, we need our own box, hahaha. I've got 7 other Kurds in my list and none of them are in the European or in the Near Eastern box. I see only myself and other Kurd in the European box, but not in the Near Easter box if I zoom in. I'm green dot, and other Kurd (Alevi Kurmanji) from Dersim is black dot.
http://imageshack.com/a/img845/8899/b2ob.jpg

Goga I added another Kurd yesterday. He is also originally Southeast Anatolian Kurd like me, He also falls close to the (South)East European cluster. but contrary to you and the other Kurd he tends more towards North.
He is also R1a1a.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6229&d=1391772380

Goga
04-03-14, 03:54
I just found out that according to 23andMe DNA Relatives you're my '4th to Distant Cousin'. We share the same distant ancestor (by same blood), hahaha! At least one of your ancestors was a Kurd Ezdi in the recent past!

Alan
04-03-14, 05:44
I just found out that according to 23andMe DNA Relatives you're my '4th to Distant Cousin'. We share the same distant ancestor (by same blood), hahaha! At least one of your ancestors was a Kurd Ezdi in the recent past!


There is a Yezidi Kurdish Girl also from Georgia. Her name is Marina she added me and said that according to 23andme she is my close cousin.

Goga
04-03-14, 06:16
There is a Yezidi Kurdish Girl also from Georgia. Her name is Marina she added me and said that according to 23andme she is my close cousin.Well, she's not my relative. I don't have her in my 'DNA Relatives' list. So you have then more than just 1 recent Kurd Ezdi ancestor! If you go to 'family & friends' -> 'family traits' you can see that we share DNA in the second chromosome. BTW, there're a lot Kurdish Ezdi women in Georgia with the name 'Marina', 'Roza' etc.

Alan
04-03-14, 17:44
Well, she's not my relative. I don't have her in my 'DNA Relatives' list. So you have then more than just 1 recent Kurd Ezdi ancestor! If you go to 'family & friends' -> 'family traits' you can see that we share DNA in the second chromosome. BTW, there're a lot Kurdish Ezdi women in Georgia with the name 'Marina', 'Roza' etc.

You might be right. All Kurds were at the end of the day either, Yezidi or Yarsan.

Sile
07-03-14, 23:40
interesting article...it seems 23andme are not consistent with the number of SNPs they give to their clients

http://liorpachter.wordpress.com/tag/interpretome/

Sile
08-03-14, 02:05
using interpretome ..........I wonder which is best from my chromosome ethnicity

interpretome below

http://imageshack.com/scaled/medium/849/jjb0.jpg (http://imageshack.com/photo/my-images/849/jjb0.jpg/) Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.com)

Sile
12-03-14, 20:18
In regards to Italian data in 23andme............they (23andme) noted to me that between 80 to 90 % of their Italian data for ancestry composition comes from Sicilian-Americans from USA ( east coast area mainly )

Angela
13-03-14, 22:13
In regards to Italian data in 23andme............they (23andme) noted to me that between 80 to 90 % of their Italian data for ancestry composition comes from Sicilian-Americans from USA ( east coast area mainly )

We've had this discussion before...in fact, I think I've asked you before if you kept a copy of this communication. Have you located it in the interim?

I ask, because as I have explained before, I have shared with many Italian users at 23andme, and they are nowhere near 80% Sicilian Americans. True, Italian-Italians, other than some Padania racists, are notoriously not interested in these kinds of genetic tests, especially for ancestry. The biggest interest is in Italian Americans trying to find relatives in Italy or just generally trying to find out more about their ancestry. However, even among them, I have found that a great many of them are from Calabria, Naples, and Puglia, in addition to Sicily, or they are a combination of all of those groups.

In addition, that statement would only apply to the reference population formed from 23andme customers. That does not take into account the many samples that they have from published academic sources.

This is a page from 23andme that describes the various academic sources they use, which include the Human Genome Diversity Project (http://hsblogs.stanford.edu/morrison/human-genome-diversity-project/), HapMap (http://hapmap.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/), and the 1000 Genomes project (http://www.1000genomes.org/).
https://customercare.23andme.com/entries/22584878-Reference-populations-in-Ancestry-Composition

More recently, I was informed that they also use the Popres data, and other data from Tuscany, but I have yet to see a statement to that effect from them.

Many other programs do not use all of these academic sources, and even if, like Dienekes, they do, they don't have as many privately tested individuals. 23andme has even more of them than does Dienekes. I personally share on 23andme with far more than 5 individuals from Northern Italy.

As I also suggested before, you might find it helpful to read the "White Paper" on their method. The precision and recall numbers are particularly interesting. The link is below.
https://www.23andme.com/ancestry_composition_guide/

Just generally I would also say that you need far fewer samples to do a reputable autosomal analysis than you need for uniparental markers, which are so volatile.

Also, as can be seen on the many PCA's of autosomal variation in Europe, Italians, north, south and center, northeast and northwest, while encompassing more variation than much of the rest of Europe put together, still only cluster with other Italians. The Alps, and to a lesser extent the Mediterranean, were formidable barriers to gene flow, as I'm sure you know if you've read Ralph and Coop et al or looked at all those PCAs. The number of Italians who place in France and Switzerland is very small. (or vice versa) A few drift in the direction of Spain (but land in the Mediterranean) and a few drift a little toward the Balkans, but none land there to my knowledge. (A few Romanians do, however, plot very near us.) Then, there are the southern Italian/Sicilian samples that overlap or are very close to the Ashkenazim. There is none of the kind of overlap that one sees, for example, between Britain and the low countries.

Sile
14-03-14, 08:30
We've had this discussion before...in fact, I think I've asked you before if you kept a copy of this communication. Have you located it in the interim?
I never saw it


I ask, because as I have explained before, I have shared with many Italian users at 23andme, and they are nowhere near 80% Sicilian Americans. True, Italian-Italians, other than some Padania racists, are notoriously not interested in these kinds of genetic tests, especially for ancestry. The biggest interest is in Italian Americans trying to find relatives in Italy or just generally trying to find out more about their ancestry. However, even among them, I have found that a great many of them are from Calabria, Naples, and Puglia, in addition to Sicily, or they are a combination of all of those groups.

In addition, that statement would only apply to the reference population formed from 23andme customers. That does not take into account the many samples that they have from published academic sources.

correct, from the 23andme customers...........known as Italian in the ancestry composition, from sicialin-americans ( which 23andme also place southern italians form USA in same bracket)

Basically, if you have over 40% italian in your composition ( not speculative), your ancestors are southern Italian, between 20% to 40% thay are central Italian and below 20% you are north-italian ( write to 23andme and they will write to you. Currently I am writing about the Southern European setup and placement ( I do not know why they have Tuscan north of northern-Italian.))


This is a page from 23andme that describes the various academic sources they use, which include the Human Genome Diversity Project (http://hsblogs.stanford.edu/morrison/human-genome-diversity-project/), HapMap (http://hapmap.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/), and the 1000 Genomes project (http://www.1000genomes.org/).
https://customercare.23andme.com/entries/22584878-Reference-populations-in-Ancestry-Composition

More recently, I was informed that they also use the Popres data, and other data from Tuscany, but I have yet to see a statement to that effect from them.


I will check it out


Many other programs do not use all of these academic sources, and even if, like Dienekes, they do, they don't have as many privately tested individuals. 23andme has even more of them than does Dienekes. I personally share on 23andme with far more than 5 individuals from Northern Italy.

As I also suggested before, you might find it helpful to read the "White Paper" on their method. The precision and recall numbers are particularly interesting. The link is below.
https://www.23andme.com/ancestry_composition_guide/

I stated, Diekes, which is dodecad has only 5 samples of North-italian and does not allow any more.
23andme IIRC has 12 samples, but you can check them yourself today....it might be more


Just generally I would also say that you need far fewer samples to do a reputable autosomal analysis than you need for uniparental markers, which are so volatile.

why do you make this statement?


Also, as can be seen on the many PCA's of autosomal variation in Europe, Italians, north, south and center, northeast and northwest, while encompassing more variation than much of the rest of Europe put together, still only cluster with other Italians. The Alps, and to a lesser extent the Mediterranean, were formidable barriers to gene flow, as I'm sure you know if you've read Ralph and Coop et al or looked at all those PCAs. The number of Italians who place in France and Switzerland is very small. (or vice versa) A few drift in the direction of Spain (but land in the Mediterranean) and a few drift a little toward the Balkans, but none land there to my knowledge. (A few Romanians do, however, plot very near us.) Then, there are the southern Italian/Sicilian samples that overlap or are very close to the Ashkenazim. There is none of the kind of overlap that one sees, for example, between Britain and the low countries.

Read this and agree with it , but PCA's change depending on what tests you do.............if you do interpretome from Stanford Univ. you use PCA1 and PCA 4 if you are European, other places have other numbers

Sile
15-03-14, 21:55
23andme

How to interpret Sicilians, since Sicilians are part of 23andme's "Italian" population, each score you see is how well the individual stacks up to the reference population average. I.e. 20% "MENA" means that individual is 20% more MENA than the "Italian" reference population's average.

Keep in mind that the "Italian" reference population consists of Sicilian-Americans as well as other Italians.
For separating Greeks:
1) If their Italian score is higher than their Balkan score, they are NOT from the mainland. The reverse can happen with an islander having higher Balkan than Italian, but never the other way around.
2) If their MENA exceeds 18%, they are at least partially Anatolian Greek.
3) Ionian islanders are indistinguishable from the mainland.

I don't know what MENA means

.............................

ON another matter
Interpretome message from konrad from stanford Univ.
Chromosone split

Hello!
The letter codes correspond to the populations from which the samples derived (below). At the moment, only the Hapmap 2 (which includes CEU, CHB/JPT, and YRI, or European, Asian, and African, respectively) are particularly reliable.

The Y-DNA is a fairly separate calculation that can be wildly different from autosomal for a number of reasons (it has a different inheritance pattern, and so, the population genetics are very different).

At this time, there is no way of knowing which half is maternal and paternal, and the painting of which side is which will not actually be consistent across chromosomes or even in a single chromosome.

-Konrad

ASW African ancestry in Southwest USA
CEU Utah residents with Northern and Western European ancestry from the CEPH collection
CHB Han Chinese in Beijing, China
CHD Chinese in Metropolitan Denver, Colorado
GIH Gujarati Indians in Houston, Texas
JPT Japanese in Tokyo, Japan
LWK Luhya in Webuye, Kenya
MEX Mexican ancestry in Los Angeles, California
MKK Maasai in Kinyawa, Kenya
TSI Toscani in Italia
YRI Yoruba in Ibadan, Nigeria

morrisseau
15-03-14, 22:51
Maciamo. Very handy. My rawdata from ancestry for M417 has rs17316771 at
8633545. I believe ancestry is using a newer Illumina chip than 23and me.

Angela
15-03-14, 23:26
Sile;428118]



correct, from the 23andme customers...........known as Italian in the ancestry composition, from sicialin-americans ( which 23andme also place southern italians form USA in same bracket)

First of all, I have been on 23andme practically since they went into business. I highly doubt that 23andme scientists do not know that southern Italians and Sicilians are two different groups, close as they may be. If they don't, they are seriously uninformed. That's why I doubt that they said that 80% of the 23andme customers who claim 100% Italian ancestry are Sicilians. I also doubt it given the company's well known paranoia about maintaining customer privacy.'

Regardless, the most important fact is that 23andme does not only rely on their own customer base for reference populations, as you implied in your post.


Basically, if you have over 40% italian in your composition ( not speculative), your ancestors are southern Italian, between 20% to 40% thay are central Italian and below 20% you are north-italian ( write to 23andme and they will write to you. Currently I am writing about the Southern European setup and placement ( I do not know why they have Tuscan north of northern-Italian.))

Just generally, who told you that the speculative setting is less reliable? Yes, I know it's called speculative and the statistics are lower in terms of recall and precision. I'm very familiar with their White Paper. However, after years of comparing scores on 23andme, it became crystal clear that the speculative setting in effect provides an analysis that comports more accurately with known genealogy. Remember that 23andme makes no claims about providing deep ancestry a la Lazaridis et al, or even one similar to what Dienekes has done in the past.

Second of all, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but the only difference as you go from the Speculative to the Standard as far as Italians are concerned is that some of the "Italian" will become non-specific Southern European; very little if any at all of it becomes northern European or German or whatever.

I also don't know where you got these kinds of figures. I just checked all my shares plus my folder of people whose results I've seen...pure, 100% Tuscans are about 70% "Italian" on the graphic, plus another 13% or more non-specific Southern European, which was probably on the Italian peninsula since the Neolithic or before, and the rest is a blend of French/German and some non-specific European. None of them have any minority ancestry, i.e. Middle Eastern, North African, East Asian or SSA, although some trace amounts might show up in some Tuscans, of course. One pure Tuscan is 76% Italian, higher than all but one or two southern Italians. In fact, many of my shares from southern Italy and Sicily come in ten points lower or more.

As to people from north of Toscana, 100% Ligurians can score 65% Italian, plus about 19% non-specific southern European. One of my Emilians comes in at 60% Italian, plus 18% non-specific Southern European. People from Piemonte come in at about the same levels, at least the ones I've seen. One of my Lombards, who plots further north on the 23andme PCA plot than any other Italian I've seen, comes in at 48% Italian plus a whopping 22% non-specific Southern European. Even a Friulan with whom I share, (and I don't consider the Friulani really Italian), comes in at 32% Italian, plus more than 25% non-specific Southern European.

It's clear that Toscana is the center of gravity for Italianita', in terms of the 23andme analysis, which makes some Tuscans of my acquaintance extremely happy. :) Both extreme southerners and extreme northerners deviate from it.

Perhaps you are looking at the scores of the people who form part of the Other Italians/OT's on Dodecad? I think you mentioned them when discussing your own results. I find this group's scores rather out of the ordinary, not least because of the SSA score, which while, of course, very small, is much higher than that of the Northern Italians and Tuscans I've seen.


why do you make this statement?

Because I've seen hundreds of 23andme results and read umpteen hundred papers. Think back to all the papers on Italian uniparental markers discussed on this site. The variety in a given area can be dizzying. Yet, autosomally, all the people from that area are very similar. It got to the point, when looking at all the Dodecad calculator results, that I could tell what the first predicted population would be for certain people just by looking at their values...you didn't even need to run the program.



Read this and agree with it , but PCA's change depending on what tests you do.............if you do interpretome from Stanford Univ. you use PCA1 and PCA 4 if you are European, other places have other number

Indeed they can, even the ones that are honestly done, but as to this particular point, all the PCA's of Italians show that they cluster autosomally only with each other, and they occupy their own space, even if it is a very LARGE space.

Edit: Those are the speculative scores as, through experience, I consider them to be the most accurate.

Sile
15-03-14, 23:46
Sile;428118]



First of all, I have been on 23andme practically since they went into business. I highly doubt that 23andme scientists do not know that southern Italians and Sicilians are two different groups, close as they may be. If they don't, they are seriously uninformed. That's why I doubt that they said that 80% of the 23andme customers who claim 100% Italian ancestry are Sicilians. I also doubt it given the company's well known paranoia about maintaining customer privacy.'

Regardless, the most important fact is that 23andme does not only rely on their own customer base for reference populations, as you implied in your post.

they refer to sicilians as southern italians and southern italians as sicilians

the non 23andme NON reference populations are noted differently as seen in the show details link...........23andme have no defining tuscan and north-italian, they rely on other customer bases and as of a few hours ago, the tuscan was 8 samples and north-italian 13 samples ................IF 23andme defined tuscan and north-italian seperatley from their italian component, they would have noted it on their show more details link


Just generally, who told you that the speculative setting is less reliable? Yes, I know it's called speculative and the statistics are lower in terms of recall and precision. I'm very familiar with their White Paper. However, after years of comparing scores on 23andme, it became crystal clear that the speculative setting in effect provides an analysis that comports more accurately with known genealogy. Remember that 23andme makes no claims about providing deep ancestry a la Lazaridis et al, or even one similar to what Dienekes has done in the past. Second of all, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but the only difference as you go from the Speculative to the Standard as far as Italians are concerned is that some of the "Italian" will become non-specific Southern European; very little if any at all become northern European or German or whatever.

speculative is as it says.............basically, they do not seperate their Italian sample in detail, so that's the speculative.


I also don't know where you got these kinds of figures. I just checked all my shares plus my folder of people whose results I've seen...pure, 100% Tuscans are about 70% "Italian" on the graphic, plus another 13% or more non-specific Southern European, which was probably on the Italian peninsula since the Neolithic or before, and the rest is a blend of French/German and some non-specific European. None of them have any minority ancestry, i.e. Middle Eastern, North African, East Asian or SSA, although some trace amounts might show up in some Tuscans, of course. One pure Tuscan is 76% Italian, higher than all but one or two southern Italians. In fact, many of my shares from southern Italy and Sicily come in ten points lower or more.

you checked only in 23andme or are you throwing in other sites?


As to people from north of Toscana, 100% Ligurians can score 65% Italian, plus about 19% non-specific southern European. One of my Emilians comes in at 60% Italian, plus 18% non-specific Southern European. People from Piemonte come in at about the same levels, at least the ones I've seen. One of my Lombards, who plots further north on the 23andme PCA plot than any other Italian I've seen, comes in at 48% Italian plus a whopping 22% non-specific Southern European. Even a Friulan with whom I share, (and I don't consider the Friulani really Italian), comes in at 32% Italian, plus more than 25% non-specific Southern European.

It's clear that Toscana is the center of gravity for Italianita', in terms of the 23andme analysis, which makes some Tuscans of my acquaintance extremely happy. :) Both extreme southerners and extreme northerners deviate from it.


where do you get these figures?...only from 23andme?


Perhaps you are looking at the scores of the people who form part of the Other Italians/OT's on Dodecad? I think you mentioned them when discussing your own results. I find this group's scores rather out of the ordinary, not least because of the SSA score, which while, of course, very small, is much higher than that of the Northern Italians and Tuscans I've seen.

more likely I see scores of southern italians over 30% and anything north of Le Marche/tuscan as greatly less ( i do not use speculative )

If I use speculative I am 21% southern european and 23% north european.
If I use standard , I am 9% southern and 2% northern

1% balkan
0.4% ashkenazi
0.5% north african-middleEast
1.2% iberian

Basically the ONLY three areas I get are Italain, france and germany ( and you will know france and germany are noted as 1 group ( go figure that)

Engel
16-03-14, 00:12
R1a is considered Aryan haplogroup and some kurds I've met in the past
don't loo like Aryans at all. They look more Arabic

Angela
16-03-14, 01:10
Sile;428171]they refer to sicilians as southern italians and southern italians as sicilians

the non 23andme NON reference populations are noted differently as seen in the show details link...........23andme have no defining tuscan and north-italian, they rely on other customer bases and as of a few hours ago, the tuscan was 8 samples and north-italian 13 samples ................IF 23andme defined tuscan and north-italian seperatley from their italian component, they would have noted it on their show more details link

I have asked you repeatedly for a screen shot of the communication where a 23andme staffer made this statement. It is a very serious matter if you are quoting other people from other websites, or posting what you remember of what the staffer wrote or how you interpreted what the staffer wrote instead of specifically what 23andme communicated. Were I at 23andme and a customer was in any way misrepresenting company communications, I would terminate that person's access to 23andme. I address this point further with regard to your other recent post on this thread about 23andme's analysis with regard to Sicilians.

As for the remainder of this quote, I don't understand your point at all. Perhaps Maciamo will allow you to post your points in Italian as well as in English. Perhaps then we will understand each other better. All I can tell you is what I told you before. I linked to an official 23andme memorandum which explained that they used Hap Map, HGDP and the 1000 Genomes Data, which contains more than 100 Tuscan samples, in addition to their own database. If you claim that this has now changed, please provide me with the written documentation from 23andme so stating.


speculative is as it says.............basically, they do not seperate their Italian sample in detail, so that's the speculative.

I don't understand this statement, either. I suggest you read the White Paper to which I linked upthread to familiarize yourself with precision, recall, etc. in terms of the different settings. Other than that, as I've already said, my opinion, and that of many others who've been at this for quite a while, is that the speculative setting better comports with actual known ancestry within a genealogical time frame, which is probably back 500-1000 years. 23andme does not claim to provide deep ancestry, although I think you might be able to push it back even 1500 years. If you search on 23andme's website you will find hundreds of posts where this topic is discussed. If you don't choose to agree with this viewpoint, then don't.



you checked only in 23andme or are you throwing in other sites?

I don't throw anything in...ever...I only post facts and data which I can substantiate. If what I'm doing is wildly speculating, then I say so. If I'm expressing an opinion, then that's what I say I am doing. If I'm unsure, then I say so. If I'm only going on memory and haven't checked the relevant papers, I say so. That's my professional training and my personal preference.

The results I posted are all "speculative" (as in choose the speculative setting from the drop down menu) figures from 23andme people with whom I currently or have in the past "shared". Remember that not all 23andme users choose to identify themselves in terms of ancestry..ie. not everyone with 100% ancestry from Italy fills out the ancestry questionnaire. In fact, most people whom I know who are currently testing deliberately don't fill it out because they are the skeptical sort who want to make sure that 23andme is not just feeding them back information which they themselves provided. Sort of a blind tasting test, if you like.

Also, I shared with numerous people who asked me to delete them after we shared, because they know that once they share with someone, they share with everyone that person shares with, (sort of like the charts done by the Center For Disease Control to track communicable diseases, lol) and they prefer to keep their data private. Not everyone is thrilled that the likes of the people on The Apricity can get access to their data and then use or misuse and misinterpret it in furtherance of some bizarre agenda. (Although I don't frequent the site, enough brave people do who report to me on the shenanigans that go on there. And I mean brave...the few times, as a rookie, that I attempted it, swarms of viruses attacked my computer. If for no other reason, no thank you.)

In addition, as I pointed out above, it makes no difference really whether someone uses Speculative or Standard. I would be willing to bet that if an Italian were to add up the "Italian" and non-specific Southern European numbers from the Standard setting, the total would be very close indeed to the "Italian" on the Speculative setting.


If I use speculative I am 21% southern european and 23% north european.
If I use standard , I am 9% southern and 2% northern

1% balkan
0.4% ashkenazi
0.5% north african-middleEast
1.2% iberian

Basically the ONLY three areas I get are Italain, france and germany ( and you will know france and germany are noted as 1 group ( go figure that)

Well, caro amico, those numbers don't equal 100%, (correct me if I'm wrong, but 21 and 23 equal 44, and not even the smaller bits will get you to 100%) not even when I've had the drink that tonight I most definitely need. The Trentini must be unique genetically. I think the only solution is to petition Austria to take you all back. Let me know how that goes...

Angela
16-03-14, 01:23
[QUOTE=Sile;428168]

23andme

How to interpret Sicilians, since Sicilians are part of 23andme's "Italian" population, each score you see is how well the individual stacks up to the reference population average. I.e. 20% "MENA" means that individual is 20% more MENA than the "Italian" reference population's average.

Keep in mind that the "Italian" reference population consists of Sicilian-Americans as well as other Italians.
For separating Greeks:
1) If their Italian score is higher than their Balkan score, they are NOT from the mainland. The reverse can happen with an islander having higher Balkan than Italian, but never the other way around.
2) If their MENA exceeds 18%, they are at least partially Anatolian Greek.
3) Ionian islanders are indistinguishable from the mainland.

I don't know what MENA means

You are going to get yourself into serious trouble by misrepresenting 23andme in this way. I've been told that the above statement, which you had the audacity to put in bold, is a verbatim statement made by some character called Sikelliot on The Apricity.

Not cool, and not smart, neither of him nor of you should anyone choose to report to 23andme that statements are being attributed to them which they have not made, and that certain customers of 23andme are abusing the privacy of other 23andme users to promote some bizarre, idiotic agendas on a tracked racist site.

Sile
16-03-14, 02:56
[QUOTE]

You are going to get yourself into serious trouble by misrepresenting 23andme in this way. I've been told that the above statement, which you had the audacity to put in bold, is a verbatim statement made by some character called Sikelliot on The Apricity.

Not cool, and not smart, neither of him nor of you should anyone choose to report to 23andme that statements are being attributed to them which they have not made, and that certain customers of 23andme are abusing the privacy of other 23andme users to promote some bizarre, idiotic agendas on a tracked racist site.

What is Apricity.......never heard of it

I got it from a member from 23andme .....one of those labelled special members ..........green or blue boxes ( whatever they are)

Anthrogenica and here is my only membership

Molgen , I think my membership is dead as I been in their once in the past year, but the site is pro-slavic .........so it does not interest me
and
worldoffamilies........which I have removed from my site is run by a pisan and he is the only person writing in that site.

Sile
16-03-14, 03:02
I have asked you repeatedly for a screen shot of the communication where a 23andme staffer made this statement. It is a very serious matter if you are quoting other people from other websites, or posting what you remember of what the staffer wrote or how you interpreted what the staffer wrote instead of specifically what 23andme communicated. Were I at 23andme and a customer was in any way misrepresenting company communications, I would terminate that person's access to 23andme. I address this point further with regard to your other recent post on this thread about 23andme's analysis with regard to Sicilians.

As for the remainder of this quote, I don't understand your point at all. Perhaps Maciamo will allow you to post your points in Italian as well as in English. Perhaps then we will understand each other better. All I can tell you is what I told you before. I linked to an official 23andme memorandum which explained that they used Hap Map, HGDP and the 1000 Genomes Data, which contains more than 100 Tuscan samples, in addition to their own database. If you claim that this has now changed, please provide me with the written documentation from 23andme so stating.




this is what I am talking about

http://imageshack.com/scaled/medium/819/mzh2.jpg (http://imageshack.com/photo/my-images/819/mzh2.jpg/) Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.com)

why don't they , 23andme , then not isolate tuscan and north-Italian instead of relying on only 21 results from other sites ?

If they knew tuscan and NI in their data they would isolate their results and not bracket them all in one group

Sile
16-03-14, 03:38
I don't understand this statement, either. I suggest you read the White Paper to which I linked upthread to familiarize yourself with precision, recall, etc. in terms of the different settings. Other than that, as I've already said, my opinion, and that of many others who've been at this for quite a while, is that the speculative setting better comports with actual known ancestry within a genealogical time frame, which is probably back 500-1000 years. 23andme does not claim to provide deep ancestry, although I think you might be able to push it back even 1500 years. If you search on 23andme's website you will find hundreds of posts where this topic is discussed. If you don't choose to agree with this viewpoint, then don't.





your fabricating what 23andme say.........they said it only up to 500 years old ....................if you know more ...link it

Ancestry Composition tells you what percent of your DNA comes from each of 31 populations worldwide. The analysis includes DNA you received from all of your ancestors, on both sides of your family. The results reflect where your ancestors lived 500 years ago, before ocean-crossing ships and airplanes came on the scene.

Sile
16-03-14, 03:46
I don't throw anything in...ever...I only post facts and data which I can substantiate. If what I'm doing is wildly speculating, then I say so. If I'm expressing an opinion, then that's what I say I am doing. If I'm unsure, then I say so. If I'm only going on memory and haven't checked the relevant papers, I say so. That's my professional training and my personal preference.

The results I posted are all "speculative" (as in choose the speculative setting from the drop down menu) figures from 23andme people with whom I currently or have in the past "shared". Remember that not all 23andme users choose to identify themselves in terms of ancestry..ie. not everyone with 100% ancestry from Italy fills out the ancestry questionnaire. In fact, most people whom I know who are currently testing deliberately don't fill it out because they are the skeptical sort who want to make sure that 23andme is not just feeding them back information which they themselves provided. Sort of a blind tasting test, if you like.

Also, I shared with numerous people who asked me to delete them after we shared, because they know that once they share with someone, they share with everyone that person shares with, (sort of like the charts done by the Center For Disease Control to track communicable diseases, lol) and they prefer to keep their data private. Not everyone is thrilled that the likes of the people on The Apricity can get access to their data and then use or misuse and misinterpret it in furtherance of some bizarre agenda. (Although I don't frequent the site, enough brave people do who report to me on the shenanigans that go on there. And I mean brave...the few times, as a rookie, that I attempted it, swarms of viruses attacked my computer. If for no other reason, no thank you.)

In addition, as I pointed out above, it makes no difference really whether someone uses Speculative or Standard. I would be willing to bet that if an Italian were to add up the "Italian" and non-specific Southern European numbers from the Standard setting, the total would be very close indeed to the "Italian" on the Speculative setting.



.
well 90% of 23andme testers have no clue on their ancestry and have no clue about anything regional about any nation ...............ask any 100 people on that site where brittany is and what nation it is in and only a few will know......ask them where France is and the % skyrockets.....which is why 23andme only go to national level and your speculation/fabrication that you can decipher is north-italian or tuscan or sicilian is non existent.

For these NI or Tuscan markers they need to rely on other companies and so as I stated they have ONLY 21 samples . I do not know where you can get NI or Tuscan out of 556 Italian samples or the 98 genomes Italian sample.....maybe you can share this with me

Sile
16-03-14, 03:57
Well, caro amico, those numbers don't equal 100%, (correct me if I'm wrong, but 21 and 23 equal 44, and not even the smaller bits will get you to 100%) not even when I've had the drink that tonight I most definitely need. The Trentini must be unique genetically. I think the only solution is to petition Austria to take you all back. Let me know how that goes...

stop being childish............you know very well the rest is
49.7% Nonspecific European

oh...and there is a
< 0.1% Nonspecific East Asian

the other numbers are from memory but are close enough

Sile
16-03-14, 04:02
@Angela

Thomas, Mar 07 02:57 PM: Hi Victor,
Our records indicate that you were genotyped on our V3 platform. Your 23andMe Personal Genome Service is a comprehensive genetic scan of about 1,000,000 SNPs.
8 MB is the expected file size for a zipped V3 Raw Data file. The file size should be closer to 30 MB once it is unzipped.
Ancestry Composition has the ability to assign pieces of your DNA at several geographic scales. This is important because DNA varies in where it’s found in the world. One piece of DNA might be found just in, say, Finnish people, so we can with some confidence call this DNA Finnish. Another piece of DNA might be found with some frequency in England, Norway and Germany. Instead of choosing arbitrarily from among these regions, Ancestry Composition will label DNA like that “Nonspecific Northern European."
If a piece of DNA is found all over Europe, like in Ireland, Italy, Spain, and Poland, but not outside Europe, Ancestry Composition will label that DNA “Nonspecific European."
Finally, when Ancestry Composition encounters DNA that is very widespread, like a piece of DNA that’s found in Europe, the Near East, and Asia, it will label that DNA “Unassigned.”
Your Ancestry Composition is a living analysis. Using thousands of reference individuals we are able to continually evolve and improve your results. As we update our reference data, it will not be uncommon to see slight shifts in your Ancestry Composition over time. Keep in mind that the knowledge of ancestral genetics is also continually evolving. The field is not static and new discoveries are being made every day. At 23andMe we strive to keep pace with the current science and keep our customers up to date on new findings.
We hope this is helpful for you. Please let us know if we can be of further assistance.
Best regards,
The 23andMe Team


I will find the other messages for you

Its about time, you need to come clean and let me know how you get this NI or Tuscan data from ( and don't mention the 21 samples from other sites)

kamani
16-03-14, 04:46
@Sile
These tests are cutting edge technology, plus a lot of speculation. Eventhough, you have 1% Balkan, I have seen Albanians with >70% Balkan, that are 1-2 milimeters away from you in the Global Simmilarity Map. So it is all to be taken with a degree of salt..

Sile
16-03-14, 10:21
The issue is ...........23andme should be better than what it gives for ancestry composition

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2012/12/23andme-ancestry-composition.html

Link above has similar to what I say.................I am not that Ponto ( guy or girl )

Sile
16-03-14, 10:28
@Sile
These tests are cutting edge technology, plus a lot of speculation. Eventhough, you have 1% Balkan, I have seen Albanians with >70% Balkan, that are 1-2 milimeters away from you in the Global Simmilarity Map. So it is all to be taken with a degree of salt..

ok, your opinion ..........I find it not detailed enough.
for a company who is now struggling due to the FDA imposing a stop to their "bread and butter" medical results!........they need to improve something else,................. even with a new autosomal system, they are failing behind Ancestry.com, BritishDNA, ScottishDNA, NatGeno2 (3), Ftdna Y and Genomes. They need to define what and where they are heading because I cannot see a future if they stay with the system they have.

Angela
16-03-14, 21:45
[QUOTE=Angela;428175]

I got it from a member from 23andme .....one of those labelled special members ..........green or blue boxes ( whatever they are)
.

Then say that it is the opinion of a member, and don't label it 23andme, which obviously gives the false impression that the quoted comment is from the scientists at 23andme.

And regardless, whether you knew it or not, I was directed to the page at The Apricity where the comment was posted. The author of the post is a self-designated eminent specialist and authority on all matters of Italian genetics and phenotypes-an American who once went there for a two week vacation, and from what I can tell is a seriously under-educated young man.

Ed. Edited to remove an unsubstantiated claim.

Angela
16-03-14, 22:50
this is what I am talking about

http://imageshack.com/scaled/medium/819/mzh2.jpg (http://imageshack.com/photo/my-images/819/mzh2.jpg/) Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.com)

why don't they , 23andme , then not isolate tuscan and north-Italian instead of relying on only 21 results from other sites ?

If they knew tuscan and NI in their data they would isolate their results and not bracket them all in one group


First of all, much of the site has not been updated in quite a while...they are still telling me my U2e is Indian as in South Asian while for the last 20,000 years or so it's been wandering around northern Eurasia and seems to have come into Italy with the "Indo-Europeans". So, I am no apologist for 23andme...it has its flaws, but any criticisms of it or any other company or programs should be informed ones.

Second of all, why would it be necessary for them to isolate North Italians and/or Tuscans in their customer provided data set to tell other customers how much of their genome is a match for the 100% Italian samples? You don't understand what these companies are marketing. They are in the business of telling their customers what percentage of their genome is Italian, not what percentage is northern Italian or Tuscan.It's not that 23andme couldn't do this, as obviously they could, and given that they have the largest data set, it would be very accurate, it's just that they're not marketing that kind of test. There are barely any customers out there who want to know their Italian ancestry, much less these specific details. If you want to see which specific Italian populations you match most closely, go to Dodecad.

You also don't understand how this all works or you wouldn't have asked this question. Either you refuse to read the White Paper which explains how the program works, or you don't understand it, for one reason or another.

Think of it as a big PCA of sorts, although the program is more than that...What seems to be showing up is a big cluster in the middle and then peripheral people both to the extreme north and to the extreme south. People in the extreme south overlap a bit with people to their south logically enough, or south east say, and the same thing works in reverse in the north. Every new sample that comes in is compared or posted in a way. The percentage of that sample's genome that matches the "Italian" cluster is labeled "Italian". It's much more complicated than this...I am trying to simplify it to the most basic level.

The people in the center of the cluster where it is most dense seem from the results I have seen to be Tuscans, because they have the highest "Italian" percentages, with the lowest percentages of "foreign" input whether from north or south. This should make total sense given their geographical location. Then come the central and some southern Italians and northern Italians. This isn't a judgment made by 23andme...it is my judgment based on all the results I have seen.

Sile
16-03-14, 23:01
[QUOTE=Sile;428177]

Then say that it is the opinion of a member, and don't label it 23andme, which obviously gives the false impression that the quoted comment is from the scientists at 23andme.

And regardless, whether you knew it or not, and I would bet that you did, I was directed to the page at The Apricity where the comment was posted. The author of the post is a self-designated eminent specialist and authority on all matters of Italian genetics and phenotypes-an American who once went there for a two week vacation, and from what I can tell is a seriously under-educated young man.

so my post 48 is an opinion?

and your other comment is a fabrication of your mind......as I said I do not know about Apricity , but clearly its infested you in your decision making ............have you an issue with me or are you some type of a share-holder/part owner of 23andme, ..........?

You are clearly attacking me, while I attack 23andme ancestry composition system ..............I suggest you keep on the topic and not go on personnel attacks against me.

Angela
16-03-14, 23:05
your fabricating what 23andme say.........they said it only up to 500 years old ....................if you know more ...link it

Ancestry Composition tells you what percent of your DNA comes from each of 31 populations worldwide. The analysis includes DNA you received from all of your ancestors, on both sides of your family. The results reflect where your ancestors lived 500 years ago, before ocean-crossing ships and airplanes came on the scene.

I am fabricating nothing...I know perfectly well that 23andme puts a 500 year limit on it...to cover their you know whats.

You really have to read more carefully.

"23andme does not claim to provide deep ancestry, although I think you might be able to push it back even 1500 years." (Emphasis added)

I did not say that 23andme claimed it goes back 1500 years. In fact I have, in numerous posts here and at 23andme, stated that I disagree with their 500 year limit. I think the data shows that it goes back somewhat later. That is my OPINION.

If you had bothered to google the subject at the 23andme site you would find extended discussions about the fact that if it really only goes back 500 years, then the 1-2% SSA that sometimes shows up in Sicilians and some Southern Italians, and in a few individuals in northeastern Italy apparently, would be unexplainable. The last time a sizable migration of people into Sicily and southern Italy that could have left this signal could have occurred is 1100 A.D. with the Saracen invasions. All the passing and re-passing of genes in isolated areas can only explain so much.

Sile
16-03-14, 23:16
First of all, much of the site has not been updated in quite a while...they are still telling me my U2e is Indian as in South Asian while for the last 20,000 years or so it's been wandering around northern Eurasia and seems to have come into Italy with the "Indo-Europeans". So, I am no apologist for 23andme...it has its flaws, but any criticisms of it or any other company or programs should be informed ones.
So you are saying that they are giving people false information about their genes/


Second of all, why would it be necessary for them to isolate North Italians and/or Tuscans in their customer provided data set to tell other customers how much of their genome is a match for the 100% Italian samples? You don't understand what these companies are marketing. They are in the business of telling their customers what percentage of their genome is Italian, not what percentage is northern Italian or Tuscan.It's not that 23andme couldn't do this, as obviously they could, and given that they the largest data set, it would be very accurate, it's just that they're not marketing that kind of test. There are barely any customers out there who want to know their Italian ancestry, much less these specific details. If you want to see which specific Italian populations you match most closely, go to Dodecad.


correct, so they should not incorporate NI and Tuscan from other sites to inflate their composition.

It would be far better if they used no other companies data.

your trying to justify, that they should use other sites and then saying they don't need to separate their own data ...........Then what are they giving the "Italian" testers ?


You also don't understand how this all works or you wouldn't have asked this question. Either you refuse to read the White Paper which explains how the program works, or you don't understand it, for one reason or another.

It's not logical how it done, that's what I am asking............I asked you to explain and you failed to do so.............not even Diekes site, they don't understand how its done


Think of it as a big PCA of sorts, although the program is more than that...What seems to be showing up is a big cluster in the middle and then peripheral people both to the extreme north and to the extreme south. People in the extreme south overlap a bit with people to their south logically enough, or south east say, and the same thing works in reverse in the north. Every new sample that comes in is compared or posted in a way. The percentage of that sample's genome that matches the "Italian" cluster is labeled "Italian". It's much more complicated than this...I am trying to simplify it to the most basic level.

You claim that there is a difference between north, central and south , you quote Ralph and coop, Boattini etc etc and then you support this "minestrone" of italian genetics


The people in the center of the cluster where it is most dense seem from the results I have seen to be Tuscans, because they have the highest "Italian" percentages, with the lowest percentages "foreign" input whether from north or south. This should make total sense given their geographical location. Then come the central and some southern Italians and northern Italians. This isn't a judgment made by 23andme...it is my judgment based on all the results I have seen.

I am sorry, but I cannot see your judgement call............I see an illogical system, that should ONLY use its own data and nobody else and present to the PAYING customer, a system which states..........We have an ancestry composition based on today's national borders and not based on any regional or geographical types.

Sile
16-03-14, 23:19
I am fabricating nothing...I know perfectly well that 23andme puts a 500 year limit on it...to cover their you know whats.

You really have to read more carefully.

"23andme does not claim to provide deep ancestry, although I think you might be able to push it back even 1500 years." (Emphasis added) I did not say that 23andme claimed any such thing. In fact I have, in numerous posts here and at 23andme, stated that I disagree with their 500 year limit. I think the data shows that it goes back somewhat later. That is my OPINION.

If you had bothered to google the subject at the 23andme site you would find extended discussions about the fact that if it really only goes back 500 years, then the 1-2% SSA that sometimes shows up in Sicilians and some Southern Italians, and in a few individuals in northeastern Italy apparently, would be unexplainable. The last time a sizable migration of people into Sicily and southern Italy that could have left this signal could have occurred is 1100 A.D. with the Saracen invasions. All the passing and re-passing of genes in isolated areas can only explain so much.

Stop deflecting the issue, these are your opinions......................just give the data/results on what 23andme present to the paying customers................99% of customers do not have the ability to read something else when its not there

Angela
17-03-14, 00:35
@Angela

Thomas, Mar 07 02:57 PM: Hi Victor,
Our records indicate that you were genotyped on our V3 platform. Your 23andMe Personal Genome Service is a comprehensive genetic scan of about 1,000,000 SNPs.
8 MB is the expected file size for a zipped V3 Raw Data file. The file size should be closer to 30 MB once it is unzipped.
Ancestry Composition has the ability to assign pieces of your DNA at several geographic scales. This is important because DNA varies in where it’s found in the world. One piece of DNA might be found just in, say, Finnish people, so we can with some confidence call this DNA Finnish. Another piece of DNA might be found with some frequency in England, Norway and Germany. Instead of choosing arbitrarily from among these regions, Ancestry Composition will label DNA like that “Nonspecific Northern European."
If a piece of DNA is found all over Europe, like in Ireland, Italy, Spain, and Poland, but not outside Europe, Ancestry Composition will label that DNA “Nonspecific European."
Finally, when Ancestry Composition encounters DNA that is very widespread, like a piece of DNA that’s found in Europe, the Near East, and Asia, it will label that DNA “Unassigned.”
Your Ancestry Composition is a living analysis. Using thousands of reference individuals we are able to continually evolve and improve your results. As we update our reference data, it will not be uncommon to see slight shifts in your Ancestry Composition over time. Keep in mind that the knowledge of ancestral genetics is also continually evolving. The field is not static and new discoveries are being made every day. At 23andMe we strive to keep pace with the current science and keep our customers up to date on new findings.
We hope this is helpful for you. Please let us know if we can be of further assistance.
Best regards,
The 23andMe Team


I will find the other messages for you

Its about time, you need to come clean and let me know how you get this NI or Tuscan data from ( and don't mention the 21 samples from other sites)

What you have provided is what is called "boilerplate"...a prepared statement to send to customers...how does it address the specific issues we have been discussing?

I can't make any sense of the remainder of your statement...I have told you a number of times that I share with and have seen the results from both Tuscans and northern Italians. Some of them are undoubtedly included in the reference sample, as I know they filled out the ancestry questionnaire. Others did not submit their data.

The fact that 23andme doesn't provide a sample by sample listing of the kits and their provenance (which they would never do) doesn't mean they aren't there. Surely you see that? Nor does the fact that 23andme doesn't tell you in the drop down box what percentage of Tuscan or Northern Italian you have mean that they aren't there. The results I posted come from them.

And yes, 23andme only tells a customer what percentage of the kit's entire genome is Italian. However, that analysis is based on a comparison of that kit's data with the data from all of 23andme's 100% Italian samples, whether those samples are from their own customer base or academic sets, and whether they are from Northern Italians or southern Italians or Central Italians.

I don't understand why you don't understand what I am saying, but obviously you don't. Perhaps it's a language problem, or the fact that you haven't yet read the links I've provided, or maybe it's that I am truly very bad at explaining all of this.

Regardless, continuing this discussion is pointless. I am not a woman with endless patience, and what little I have has been exhausted.

I do apologize if you are not one of the posters at The Apricity. There are certainly a few northeastern Italians on there, one named Victor so I am told, who have bizarre, extreme opinions of a most unsavory nature. I suppose I thought that it was too much of a coincidence for it not to be you.

And no, I don't own stock in 23andme...I think your Italian propensity for seeing conspiracies everywhere is showing...I do understand that characteristic...in fact I share it.http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/smile.gif

Believe it or not, Sile, except for the situation where I lost my temper a bit, I was mostly trying sincerely to explain some of these new generation statistical algorithms (not that I don't think there's a lot of room for improvement, because I do).

And now, I submit that we've provided enough amusement for the other forum members.

Sile
17-03-14, 01:55
I can't make any sense of the remainder of your statement...I have told you a number of times that I share with and have seen the results from both Tuscans and northern Italians. Some of them are undoubtedly included in the reference sample, as I know they filled out the ancestry questionnaire. Others did not submit their data.

The fact that 23andme doesn't provide a sample by sample listing of the kits and their provenance (which they would never do) doesn't mean they aren't there. Surely you see that? Nor does the fact that 23andme doesn't tell you in the drop down box what percentage of Tuscan or Northern Italian you have mean that they aren't there. The results I posted come from them.

And yes, 23andme only tells a customer what percentage of the kit's entire genome is Italian. However, that analysis is based on a comparison of that kit's data with the data from all of 23andme's 100% Italian samples, whether those samples are from their own customer base or academic sets, and whether they are from Northern Italians or southern Italians or Central Italians.

Your kit results are based on people who put ancestry as Italian in their questionnaire only..........no ancestry of your kit is used if you said your ancestry is tuscan or north-italian. As most people state...better to leave this information empty and let 23andme decide what you are.
To conclude, should a person from the north or tuscan just say they are italian in the questionnaire and have their results mess up data ?

ONLY people who have placed the word Italian and all 4 grandparents are Italian will there info be used as data for Italian


I don't understand why you don't understand what I am saying, but obviously you don't. Perhaps it's a language problem, or the fact that you haven't yet read the links I've provided, or maybe it's that I am truly very bad at explaining all of this.

I understand how it's work, its a simplified method to appease the masses who have little knowledge of genetics..........I do not understand how you can appreciate this method with ALL the superior knowledge you have on the subject.



I do apologize if you are not one of the posters at The Apricity. There are certainly a few northeastern Italians on there, one named Victor so I am told, who have bizarre, extreme opinions of a most unsavory nature. I suppose I thought that it was too much of a coincidence for it not to be you.


accepted

link me this victor from apricity, I have ways of finding who it is.

AND
this racist Padania remark to me is not justified for me or the Veneti...........they are already recognized by the Italian government as different people and not Italians in the true sense
Con la legge n.340 del 1971 la Repubblica Italiana ha istituito la Regione Veneto, così come doveva essere fatto fin dall'inizio della Repubblica anche per le altre regioni, in quanto disposto dalla Costituzione Italiana.

All'articolo 2 dello Statuto della regione (la suddetta l.n.340 del '71), si legge "L'autogoverno del popolo veneto si attua in forme corrispondenti alle caratteristiche della sua storia.". etc etc


I popoli attualmente riconosciuti sono (in ordine alfabetico):

Il popolo Sardo (http://www.regione.sardegna.it/ital/statuto.htm)
Il popolo Veneto

Only sardo and veneto are named in the constitution as different people.............why would Veneti care about Padania, There are no Padanians......Veneti prefer to go it alone. The padanian thing is solely only NW Italy and NC Italy ( mostly lombard )to be seen as different and to unite all north Italy under a nation called Padania with its capital in Milan.......something the veneti disagree on




Believe it or not, Sile, except for the situation where I lost my temper a bit, I was mostly trying sincerely to explain some of these new generation statistical algorithms (not that I don't think there's a lot of room for improvement, because I do).



I read Roberta Estes articles, Cece Moore etc etc....articles on the subject matter and still I see no way you can come up with the numbers you come up with

JRAD
21-05-14, 03:03
Is the v4 chip transferable to any other sites?

Alan
21-05-14, 18:21
Is the v4 chip transferable to any other sites?

Unfortunately I have heard that it isn't. Otherwise I would have used it to get a deep yDNA test on ftDNA.

Sile
25-05-14, 10:05
Unfortunately I have heard that it isn't. Otherwise I would have used it to get a deep yDNA test on ftDNA.

you would select chip 4 with less SNP's over ftdna yfull

Alan
25-05-14, 13:17
you would select chip 4 with less SNP's over ftdna yfull

Sorry I didn't understand. What do you mean exactly?