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Huracan
21-02-14, 03:06
Hello everyone,

I have been an avid reader and follower of most of the posts and contents on this site... and now I finally joined it!

A bit of background:
My father first tested his Y back in 2007 with National Geographic's The Genographic Project, which revealed that he and I (as well as our paternal lineage) belonged to K2. As everything updated, we became M70. Then, last summer (2013), I tested myself this time with their Geno 2.0 Beta kit and it was revealed that I was T-CTS11984. The map shows my terminal SNP as L131* but the marker displayed for my profile and kit is CTS11984. I looked it up and it means "Chris Tyler-Smith", the scientist who recently discovered these SNPs and named them after himself. - Does this mean that CTS11984 is equivalent to L131*?

Beyond this, I have been undergoing deep and intense investigation regarding the origin of my surname (Fundora) and of my deep paternal ancestry. The earliest info I have is regarding my four-times great-grandfather, Luis Fundora, born about 1809 in San Antonio de Rio Blanco del Norte, La Habana, Cuba.

The only other people that share the same SNP as I who have "stories" on the Nat Geno site are two men: one with a Peruvian father, born in Callao, Peru (with supposed Ashkenazim roots) and one of Irish paternal heritage with surname Sullivan.

I appreciate any help! Thanks!

LeBrok
21-02-14, 05:18
Welcome to Eupedia KFundora.

Huracan
22-02-14, 05:54
Thank you, LeBrok! :)

Sile
22-02-14, 19:33
Hello everyone,

I have been an avid reader and follower of most of the posts and contents on this site... and now I finally joined it!

A bit of background:
My father first tested his Y back in 2007 with National Geographic's The Genographic Project, which revealed that he and I (as well as our paternal lineage) belonged to K2. As everything updated, we became M70. Then, last summer (2013), I tested myself this time with their Geno 2.0 Beta kit and it was revealed that I was T-CTS11984. The map shows my terminal SNP as L131* but the marker displayed for my profile and kit is CTS11984. I looked it up and it means "Chris Tyler-Smith", the scientist who recently discovered these SNPs and named them after himself. - Does this mean that CTS11984 is equivalent to L131*?

Beyond this, I have been undergoing deep and intense investigation regarding the origin of my surname (Fundora) and of my deep paternal ancestry. The earliest info I have is regarding my four-times great-grandfather, Luis Fundora, born about 1809 in San Antonio de Rio Blanco del Norte, La Habana, Cuba.

The only other people that share the same SNP as I who have "stories" on the Nat Geno site are two men: one with a Peruvian father, born in Callao, Peru (with supposed Ashkenazim roots) and one of Irish paternal heritage with surname Sullivan.

I appreciate any help! Thanks!

no CTS11984 marker in T tree ( last update 30 Jan. 2014)
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html

Did they give you any other markers?

Huracan
22-02-14, 23:21
Sile,

I too noticed that the 2014 ISOGG tree did not have that marker. If not CTS11984, then I would just be L131.

Huracan
23-02-14, 00:09
And no, the only markers given were CTS11984 and L131. I just finished transferring my Nat Geno info to FamilyTree DNA and it placed me in T-L131. Will test later for P322 and P327.

Sile
23-02-14, 04:30
And no, the only markers given were CTS11984 and L131. I just finished transferring my Nat Geno info to FamilyTree DNA and it placed me in T-L131. Will test later for P322 and P327.

below is natogeno2 bracket for your SNP

K473 equivalent
// K474, CTS525, CTS1028, CTS1351, CTS1465, CTS3640, CTS7046, CTS8690, CTS11984

what is K473?

Huracan
23-02-14, 20:18
Hold on, I just uploaded my transferred results into the MorleyDNA.com Y-SNP Terminal Subclade Predictor and it came up as "most likely" T1a2b-L446! (using the author's experimental tree) Using the ISOGG Tree it came up also as T1a2b-L446. I just copied and pasted the SNP results from FamilyTree DNA and I never noticed that among the SNPs I was positive for, it said: L446+.

Below are the SNP results uploaded to FTDNA:
CTS10278+, CTS10362+, CTS10416+, CTS10700+, CTS10879+, CTS109+, CTS11054+, CTS11358+, CTS11569+, CTS11575+, CTS11726+, CTS11746+, CTS11796+, CTS11984+, CTS12108+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS12657+, CTS150+, CTS1774+, CTS1848+, CTS1996+, CTS2157+, CTS2336+, CTS2888+, CTS3331+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3585+, CTS3648+, CTS3654+, CTS3662+, CTS3767+, CTS3837+, CTS3868+, CTS3996+, CTS4014+, CTS4201+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4443+, CTS4652+, CTS4740+, CTS4783+, CTS482+, CTS493+, CTS5035+, CTS5175+, CTS5268+, CTS5318+, CTS5332+, CTS5336+, CTS5364+, CTS5457+, CTS5532+, CTS573+, CTS5987+, CTS6004+, CTS6045+, CTS6135+, CTS6214+, CTS6275+, CTS6276+, CTS6375+, CTS6383+, CTS6577+, CTS6800+, CTS6805+, CTS6887+, CTS6888+, CTS6907+, CTS7164+, CTS7263+, CTS7426+, CTS753+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8004+, CTS8243+, CTS8247+, CTS8397+, CTS8862+, CTS8980+, CTS8994+, CTS9268+, CTS9308+, CTS9828+, CTS9984+, F1046+, F1209+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F1493+, F1704+, F1714+, F1753+, F1767+, F2048+, F2075+, F2142+, F2155+, F2302+, F2402+, F2587+, F2688+, F2710+, F2837+, F2985+, F2993+, F3111+, F3136+, F3335+, F3556+, F3692+, F719+, L131+, L132+, L15+, L16+, L298+, L350+, L446+, L455+, L468+, L470+, L490+, L498+, M139+, M168+, M235+, M272+, M294+, M42+, M70+, M89+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, PAGES00078+, PAGES00129+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PF342+, PF500+, PF5518+, PF5519+, PF5526+, PF5529+, PF5531+, PF5535+, PF5536+, PF5537+, PF5566+, PF5568+, PF5586+, PF5587+, PF5588+, PF5590+, PF5592+, PF5602+, PF5603+, PF5604+, PF5607+, PF5608+, PF5609+, PF5610+, PF5612+, PF5613+, PF5657+, PF5659+, PF5660+, PF5661+, PF5664+, PF5666+, PF5673+, PF5674+, PF5678+, PF667+, PF719+, PF725+, PF7460+, PF7463+, PF7464+, PF7465+, PF7466+, PF7480+, PF7481+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+

Also, on the Y-SNP predictor, when using the experimental tree, the results were (in order): T1a1, N1c1a1a1a1~2, R1b1a2a1a2b~1, and R1b1a2a2~2. I wonder what this means...if it means anything at all.

Huracan
23-02-14, 20:37
below is natogeno2 bracket for your SNP

K473 equivalent
// K474, CTS525, CTS1028, CTS1351, CTS1465, CTS3640, CTS7046, CTS8690, CTS11984

what is K473?

Siles, when I looked it up, it came up on a page talking about Y-DNA Haplogroup O2b1a, with K473 being downstream of it. That makes no sense. I cannot post links yet, but it is the first result when you type in "K473 SNP" into Google and the fourth result when you type in "K473 equivalent SNP." It places it as a subgroup to O-47z. I wonder if this is a mistake or something...

Also, I just looked up on the ISOGG Tree (2014) and I came up positive also for CTS2157, CTS11796, and CTS12108, all possibly equivalent to L446.

Sile
24-02-14, 07:36
Siles, when I looked it up, it came up on a page talking about Y-DNA Haplogroup O2b1a, with K473 being downstream of it. That makes no sense. I cannot post links yet, but it is the first result when you type in "K473 SNP" into Google and the fourth result when you type in "K473 equivalent SNP." It places it as a subgroup to O-47z. I wonder if this is a mistake or something...

Also, I just looked up on the ISOGG Tree (2014) and I came up positive also for CTS2157, CTS11796, and CTS12108, all possibly equivalent to L446.

I too am T-L466, although I was tested by Ftdna via the T project manager..Gareth Henson. Someone you need to contact once joining the T project.

T-L466 as advised by Mr. Henson and also on wiki T-M184 is basically british isles and eastern alps. This agrees with my ftdna haplo-origins as I only have Ireland and Italy.
T-L466 is nowhere to be seen in Iberia and the lowest I have found on any Ydna site is in La Rochelle France. It does arch in a northern path around to Romania. with low countries, British Isles, Germany, Scandinavia and Poland being in majority.

Since you are USA, their are 6 people in USA ranging from Washington, Maryland to south Carolina.......All those I contacted there are from Scotland, Ireland or wales only ( unusual that no English are among them )

On ysearch, there are 3 iberians with some markers as myself, but all come from galicia or cantabria...but none are L446 ydna

Huracan
24-02-14, 17:26
I too am T-L466, although I was tested by Ftdna via the T project manager..Gareth Henson. Someone you need to contact once joining the T project.

T-L466 as advised by Mr. Henson and also on wiki T-M184 is basically british isles and eastern alps. This agrees with my ftdna haplo-origins as I only have Ireland and Italy.
T-L466 is nowhere to be seen in Iberia and the lowest I have found on any Ydna site is in La Rochelle France. It does arch in a northern path around to Romania. with low countries, British Isles, Germany, Scandinavia and Poland being in majority.

Since you are USA, their are 6 people in USA ranging from Washington, Maryland to south Carolina.......All those I contacted there are from Scotland, Ireland or wales only ( unusual that no English are among them )

On ysearch, there are 3 iberians with some markers as myself, but all come from galicia or cantabria...but none are L446 ydna

Nice to finally meet someone who is in the same haplogroup (and the same SNP) as me!
-And I just contacted Gareth from the FTDNA site, thanks for telling me.

I did notice how L446 is found in "Northwest Europe and Eastern Alps" as per wiki, I did not know that its Northwest European distribution was basically the British Isles. The other people on FTDNA who had L446+ (but were identified as L131) had their earliest paternal ancestors in (or with surnames originating from) England, Scotland, Germany, Austria, and Italy. My results on the list stick out like a sore thumb, haha. Yet I am very intrigued with the absence of L446 in Iberia and my supposed "Spanish" origins.

Now, my surname Fundora is considerably rare. It is currently found in its highest numbers in Cuba and the U.S. (Florida and New Jersey). Other places where Fundora is also found is in Puerto Rico and Mexico (supposedly), Venezuela, the Canary Islands, and maybe Spain. The proposed origins of Fundora are: (1) Catalán, coming from Fondera/Fundera (first recorded in 1657), but maybe ultimately hailing from France (Fonder, found in France and the Ardennes region of Belgium) and (2) Italian, coming from Fondra in Bergamo, Italy, which is pronounced Fundra in the local Bergamo dialect.

Unfortunately, my family does not have a paper trial beyond my earliest known paternal ancestor (Luis Fundora Miranda) and I cannot use the FTDNA haplo-origins or ySearch since I have yet to actually test myself with FTDNA.

Sile
24-02-14, 19:20
Now, my surname Fundora is considerably rare. It is currently found in its highest numbers in Cuba and the U.S. (Florida and New Jersey). Other places where Fundora is also found is in Puerto Rico and Mexico (supposedly), Venezuela, the Canary Islands, and maybe Spain. The proposed origins of Fundora are: (1) Catalán, coming from Fondera/Fundera (first recorded in 1657), but maybe ultimately hailing from France (Fonder, found in France and the Ardennes region of Belgium) and (2) Italian, coming from Fondra in Bergamo, Italy, which is pronounced Fundra in the local Bergamo dialect.

Unfortunately, my family does not have a paper trial beyond my earliest known paternal ancestor (Luis Fundora Miranda) and I cannot use the FTDNA haplo-origins or ySearch since I have yet to actually test myself with FTDNA.

Since Bergamo is east lombard dialect with 350 years of venetian dialect thrown in, the words that come to mind are fondaor = welder
fondar = sink
fonde = foundations
fondo = deep
fondaria = foundry........but this is lombard word as venetian word for foundry is G(h)eto which comes from the word getar = pour .......as example, to pour as in for a mold for cannons

there is a town in bergamo called isola di fondra ..........so its very easy in italy for someone to be named after a town where they came from

There is no word I know of in the Italian dialect which comes to mind


Italian heraldry sites do say -


Origine del cognome Fondra, provenienza: Italia


Titolo
Conti - Nobili


http://heraldrysinstitute.com/images/stemma.php?id=7675 Le memorie di questa famiglia ricordano come capo stipite delle due linee, milanese, cioè, e veneto-dalmata, un Tommaso de Fondra che da Sigismondo imperatore con diploma datato a Milano, fu nel 1413 creato barone dell'impero. Si stabilì in Venezia sul principio del secolo XVI, ove un Lorenzo fu dal doge Pasquale Cicogna fatto conte palatino. Il ... continua



Family is recorded from 2 lines...........Milanese family, who's origins are venetian-dalmatian from Thomas of Fondra who Sigismund ( holy Roman Emperor) made a baron in 1413. other is , in the second part of the 16th Century, a Lorenzo ( de fondra) was made a count of the Palatin order after the death of the doge Pasquale Cicogna



fu = dead ......Latin word was quondam


The year above, 1413, is significant, due to Venetian ownership reached Verona in 1420. the East-lombard areas of Cremona, Brescia and Bergamo was fought for between Venetian and Milanese forces. The venetians having decisively beaten the Milanese took East-Lombard lands and held them from 1431 to ~1800.
So Thomas had already left the venetians much earlier.

Sile
24-02-14, 19:51
there are 9 Fondra people in town called Ormelle, Veneto, in italy

http://www.mundia.com/it/Search/Results?surname=FONDRA&birthPlace=Italy

Huracan
24-02-14, 23:56
Wow! Thank you very much, Siles! This will help a lot in my family research. :grin:

Also, when I first researched Fondra when I got into genealogy years ago, I found that the name of the hamlet comes from the Latin fundere, referring to the historical mining and foundry-working of the area. Below is what two sites can tell me about the history of Fondra:

1. From the actual comune's website:


Dati storici

Il comune unisce due centri di antica fondazione: soprattutto Fondra dove erano miniere di ferro, pirite, rame e metalli argentiferi. Del resto l'etimologia di Fondra sembra convalidare l'originaria esistenza delle fonderie che lavoravano i minerali estratti. Si ha notizia che nel '600 l'abilità dei valligiani era conosciuta ed apprezzata fuori provincia e all'estero, dove molti emigravano stagionalmente uniti in gruppi familiari: Paganoni, Michetti, Vitali, Scuri, ... E questo nonostante le minacce di Venezia, che per ragioni strategiche ostacolava l'emigrazione delle maestranze qualificate fuori dal suo territorio. Le contrade di Pusdosso, Comelli, Foppa e Forcella, che nelle decorazioni affrescate degli intonaci documentano il fastigio di un passato fiorente, erano allineate sulla "Via del Ferro", ancora leggibile in diversi tratti per l'ampiezza del tracciato e la regolare connessione dell'acciottolato.

Ritrovamenti archeologici

Nella primavera del 1999, durante i lavori di restauro della chiesa parrocchiale di Trabuchello sono state rinvenute una necropoli altomedioevale e una fortificazione civile di epoca tardo romana.
Gli scavi archeologici hanno portato alla luce nella navata centrale sei tombe, di cui una molto piccola, di forma antropoide, cioè con restringimento in corrispondenza della testa e degli arti inferiori .
Le tombe litiche sono delimitate da pietre poste di taglio e con la copertura in lastre di pietra locale.
Altri tre scheletri, probabilmente risalenti al XVII secolo, in cassa lignea e una cripta con funzione di ossario sono stati ritrovati ai piedi del presbiterio.
Al centro della chiesa è inoltre emersa anche una struttura muraria dalla larghezza di un metro collocabile tra il tardoantico e l’alto medioevo.
Dovrebbe trattarsi dei resti di un insediamento civile,forse una torre di guardia a forma rettangolare o comunque di una piccola fortificazione.
A supportare tale tesi sarebbe anche la posizione strategica del luogo dove sorge la chiesa , un dosso che domina un tratto di valle.
L’importanza dei ritrovamenti archeologici è notevole: conferma le ipotesi che l’Alta Valle Brembana fosse abitata fin dall’alto medioevo



2. From the Bergamo Province site:

Notizie Storiche di Isola di Fondra

Le alterne vicende della Valle Brembana investirono anche la Valfondra che sembra aver subito la dominazione di Etruschi, Romani e le successive invasioni barbariche. Con ogni probabilita', anticamente era abitata da popolazioni dedite alla pastorizia e all'attivita' mineraria. Solo del periodo dopo il 1000 si hanno notizie storiche documentate. Un atto del 1148 dice: "Sizio e Aspello di Fondra furono investiti dal Vescovo Gerardo di ogni diritto in Valle di Fondra, nel monte Scanicola fino a Branzi e valle del Leffo fino all'Arete e per la valle Sasso fino al fiume Brembo". Verso la fine dell'XI secolo infatti il Vescovo di Bergamo esercitava diritti feudali in quasi tutta la Valfondra. Lo statuto di Bergamo del 1331 fa riferimento all'accorpamento dei Comuni di Branzi, Valleve, Cambrembo, Foppolo e Carona con Fondra. Dopo il periodo tumultuoso delle Signorie, nel 1428 la Valle passa sotto la Repubblica Veneta. Nella relazione che il capitano Giovanni da Lezze invio' al Senato si legge: "La Valfondra e' una valle in mezzo ai monti e attraversata dal Brembo........ Le terre e le contrade sono divise in 3 parrocchie: S.Giovanni, S.Bartolomeo e S.Lorenzo. A quest'ultima appartengono Fondra, Soprafondra, Trabuchello, Forcella, Foppa, Via Piana, Cornelli e Posaldosso (Pusdosso). Esistono forni e fucine per la lavorazione del ferro estratto nelle miniere. Il ferro viene comodamente lavorato grazie alla presenza dell'acqua del fiume Brembo che peraltro viene usata per far funzionare mulini, peste del grano e segherie......." Con il tratto di Campoformio (1797) va a far parte della Repubblica Cisalpina. Il regime napoleonico porto' un certo risveglio nazionale e il riordino dell'amministrazione, della giustizia e della legislazione. Successivamente il Congresso di Vienna segno' il passaggio della Lombardia all'Austria. La Valfondra divenne parte del distretto di Piazza Brembana. Infine nel 1859, con la seconda guerra d'indipendenza, entro' a far parte del Regno d'Italia e ne segui' le vicende.


Antiche vie di comunicazione

Anticamente la strada di collegamento della Valfondra (un ramo della Via del Ferro) con la Piana di Lenna e con la via Mercatorum, era una mulattiera che saliva dall'attuale Lago di Moio fino a Bordogna. Qui, in frazione Forcella, superava il passo per poi transitare nel centro di Fondra in riva sinistra e scavalcare il Brembo alcune centinaia di metri a monte dell'abitato su una passerella che nel 1715 venne sostituita da un manufatto di pietra, in stile romano , chiamato il Ponte dei Canali. La strada poi proseguiva per Trabuchello e per tutti gli altri centri della Valfondra e si collegava con quegli itinerari che attraverso i passi delle Orobie (Tartano, Venina e Publino) portavano in Valtellina. Nel 1834, ad opera degli austriaci venne costruita una carreggiabile tra Lenna e Branzi che correva sulla destra orografica della valle. La realizzazione della nuova strada e la costruzione di un ponte nel centro di Fondra (1805) portarono all'abbandono del Ponte dei Canali che fu presto soggetto a degrado. Nel 1998 il ponte e' stato restaurato con il ripristino delle spallette.


Le Miniere

L'attivita' mineraria fu per molti secoli una tra le principali risorse economiche di Fondra, come ne attesta il nome che deriva dal latino "fundere". L'escavazione del rame e del ferro si reputa sia iniziata in tempi antichissimi. Che in epoca romana fossero praticamente cava di rame o di calcopirite, un minerale di rame, nella terra bergamasca lo attestano Plinio il Vecchio, e il minerologo Giorgio Agricola. Che alcune piccole miniere si trovassero nel territorio di Fondra, lo scrive il Mairone da Ponte: "Quivi e' dove ammirasi grandi antiche e abbondanti escavazioni e grandi artificiali spaccature di montagna. Esse vanno attribuite a lavori praticativi al tempo che la patria apparteneva al dominio romano ". Durante la dominazione veneta Fondra era sicuramente un centro minerario importante con diverse miniere di ferro e gli "assali" (barre di ferro), informa il Lezze, venivano vendute a Genova, Milano e Bergamo. Nelle miniere si lavorava da ottobre a maggio perche' d'estate l'eccessiva umidita' e le acque che coprivano il fondo rendevano impossibile la presenza dei minatori. E' certo che nel 1600 a Fondra erano attive 17 miniere, delle quali 3 di piombo e 14 di ferro, mentre Trabuchello contava 2 minieredi ferro. All'inizionel '700 l'industria mineraria entro' in crisi, specialmente nelle vallate Oltre la Goggia, anche a causa dei particolari oneri fiscali a cui era soggetta e della mancanza di legname per alimentare i forni. Nel 1742 risultavano concesse sul nostro teritorio 4 miniere di ferro a Trabuchello e 5 a Fondra, ma il vicario delle miniere confessava di non saper quali fossero funzionanti e quali abbandonate. In particolare nel '700 e nei primi decenni del 1800 il ferro che veniva estratto era lavorato in piccole officine lungo il Brembo per la produzione dei chiodi.


A Venetian origin (subsequently emigrating from Venice or Genoa) for Fundora and my earliest paternal family is consistent with the historical Italian immigration to Cuba. The first Italians came to Cuba with the Spanish conquistadores after Columbus discovered it in 1492. Most were missionaries and the rest were soldiers of fortune. It can be assumed that most of these Italians were Genoese due to Columbus being Genoese and their favorable position with the Spaniards (especially since in 1528 its new constitution made it a satellite of the Spanish Empire). Later, in 1605, shipwrecked Italian sailors (Genoese and Venetian) founded Mantua, Cuba on the far west side of the island (Pinar del Rio Province) - interestingly, there are localities in this area named Fundora, including a known tobacco farm owned by a Fundora family in Dimas, not too far away from Mantua, that was bought in 1958 and made the basis for the U.S. Taino Cigar company. The only other Italian immigration movements occurred in the mid-1850s, which is too late in terms of my family records. Another possible route is from the Canary Islands. Conquistador Alonso Fernández de Lugo "oversaw extension immigration to Tenerife and La Palma during a short period from the late 1490s to the 1520s from mainland Europe, and immigrants included Castilians, Portuguese, Italians, Catalans, Basques, and Flemings. At subsequent judicial enquiries, Fernández de Lugo was accused of favoring Genoese and Portuguese immigrants over Castilians." (wiki)

On another note, does this mean that, due to the distribution of L446, the French-Catalán origin for Fundora is less likely?

Huracan
25-02-14, 00:05
I have also been wondering, what are origins of L446? If you know of them. Would it be associated with remnants of Neolithic settlers coming into Europe or would have it been introduced from the Balkans as the Indo-Europeans (R1b) nestled there for a long time and then swept westward, possibly bringing with them a minority of Neolithic lineages with T among them? (The latter idea was inspired by the "Genetic Histories" articles on this site)

Sile
25-02-14, 07:39
Wow! Thank you very much, Siles! This will help a lot in my family research. :grin:

Also, when I first researched Fondra when I got into genealogy years ago, I found that the name of the hamlet comes from the Latin fundere, referring to the historical mining and foundry-working of the area. Below is what two sites can tell me about the history of Fondra:

A Venetian origin (subsequently emigrating from Venice or Genoa) for Fundora and my earliest paternal family is consistent with the historical Italian immigration to Cuba. The first Italians came to Cuba with the Spanish conquistadores after Columbus discovered it in 1492. Most were missionaries and the rest were soldiers of fortune. It can be assumed that most of these Italians were Genoese due to Columbus being Genoese and their favorable position with the Spaniards (especially since in 1528 its new constitution made it a satellite of the Spanish Empire). Later, in 1605, shipwrecked Italian sailors (Genoese and Venetian) founded Mantua, Cuba on the far west side of the island (Pinar del Rio Province) - interestingly, there are localities in this area named Fundora, including a known tobacco farm owned by a Fundora family in Dimas, not too far away from Mantua, that was bought in 1958 and made the basis for the U.S. Taino Cigar company. The only other Italian immigration movements occurred in the mid-1850s, which is too late in terms of my family records. Another possible route is from the Canary Islands. Conquistador Alonso Fernández de Lugo "oversaw extension immigration to Tenerife and La Palma during a short period from the late 1490s to the 1520s from mainland Europe, and immigrants included Castilians, Portuguese, Italians, Catalans, Basques, and Flemings. At subsequent judicial enquiries, Fernández de Lugo was accused of favoring Genoese and Portuguese immigrants over Castilians." (wiki)

On another note, does this mean that, due to the distribution of L446, the French-Catalán origin for Fundora is less likely?

most likely Genoese, as they became close to castilian Spain after losing their East med. empire after the 5th Venetian war and the ottoman take over in 1473 of the Genoese black sea holding of caffa ( kaffa, Crimea). The Genoese basically became the bankers of the Castilian empire as Catalans and Basques ( who where the best seafarers apart form the Portuguese in Iberia) where very much prevented from going to the new world by the Castilian Cortes.

Your ancestor might have been Venetian, but likelyhood is that they would have gone to Genoa for adventure.

and Yes, there is a big chance that french and catalan play a role in L446, there are about 5% of T in Auvergne and another 5% in Alsace. I assume catalan should have it especially since Ibiza has a lot of T


If your family was in a hamlet/borough ( Borgo) then they would have been artisans of some sort and paid relatively well by the noble who ran that Borgo. This Venetian Noble would have on sold his goods to the Venetian Guilds , who sold the goods to the foreign buyers in the auction houses. no Noble was to be involved in any guild for punishment of death.

Sile
25-02-14, 07:47
I have also been wondering, what are origins of L446? If you know of them. Would it be associated with remnants of Neolithic settlers coming into Europe or would have it been introduced from the Balkans as the Indo-Europeans (R1b) nestled there for a long time and then swept westward, possibly bringing with them a minority of Neolithic lineages with T among them? (The latter idea was inspired by the "Genetic Histories" articles on this site)

I see a south caucasus, caspian sea ( south and east side) as the origin of L446. But L446 entered Europe very early, before R group. They most likely came with G . The alps has a high % of T ( and L ).

Sile
25-02-14, 08:18
there are 9 Fondra people in town called Ormelle, Veneto, in italy

http://www.mundia.com/it/Search/Results?surname=FONDRA&birthPlace=Italy


I have no Fondra surname in all the veneto, birth, death and Marriages registrars from 1800 to 1820 ..........but at this time East lombardy was under a different zone of french rule. ( I have no access to that ).........but once Austria took over Veneto and Lombardy in 1820, they realigned the borders to what we currently have in north Italy today.
So East lombardy went to Lombardy and the friuli border was moved westward to the Livenza river. So these Fondra people in Ormelle Veneto could have moved after 1820.

Ormelle is basically eastern Veneto near Oderzo.

Huracan
25-02-14, 17:41
...and Yes, there is a big chance that french and catalan play a role in L446, there are about 5% of T in Auvergne and another 5% in Alsace. I assume catalan should have it especially since Ibiza has a lot of T...

I personally thought that a French/Catalán origin was less likely because L446 was not found in Iberia and was restricted to NW Europe (mostly the British Isles, the Low Countries, Germany, Scandinavia), the Eastern Alps, and parts of Eastern Europe (Romania and Poland), although you did mention a small presence in La Rochelle, France. In fact, the French/Catalán origin was one I personally suggested due to an educated guess based on: the etymological similarity of Fondera (and its misspelling in church records as Fundera), the historic migration of Catalanes to Cuba, and the fact that the earliest individual bearing the Fondera surname was named Joseph Fondera (b. ca. 1660s) - the name Joseph in Catalán would have been spelled as Josep, as are his grandchildren in the records, and the nearest place that spelled it that way was France and the French surname Fonder (found in France and the Ardennes region of Belgium) seemed as a logical precursor to Fondera. There is a possibility that I may be completely wrong because I based this on a slew of assumptions.

Here is a T-subclade map I found on the Internet that may be of use for interpretation and analysis: http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1299 (I couldn't post the image directly, it was too large of a file)

Also, here is what I found from FTDNA based on those individuals who tested for L131 and L446:
Locations where T-L131+ (as per FTDNA):

Shchedrin, Belarus (Surname: Epstein)
Bushtyno, Zakarpats’ka oblast, Ukraine (Surname: Lebovics)
Harran, Turkey (Surname: Terakh)
Różan, Poland (Surname: Jezernicki)
Germany (Surname: Rauch)
Radóc, Romania (Surname: György)
Valenciennes, France (Surname: Rapalje)
Guano Canton, Ecuador (Surname: Guerra)
Van Province, Turkey (Surname: Ardzrooni [Armenian])
Tibeni, Romania (Surname: Gyorgy [Transylvania])
Bacău, Romania (Surname: Lazar)
Musano, Treviso, Veneto, Italy (Surname: Pretotto)
Trowbridge, Wiltshire, UK (Surname: Corson)
Dipignano Cosenza, Italy (Surname: Laccino)
Alsace, France (Surname: Miller)
Tolkmicko, Poland (Surname: Hohenfeld)
Ciripcau, Moldova (Surname: Karapcivsky)
Schmerikon, Sankt Gallen, Schweiz (Switzerland) (Surname: Blarer)
Morshansk, Tambov Oblast, Russia (Surname: Vavilov)
Alsace-Lorraine, France (Surname: Dufford)
Mordovia, Russia (Surname: Bulgakov)

Predicted L131+:

Burscheid, Germany (Surname: Erlenkoetter)
Sicily, Italy (?)
Tomnavoulin, Ballindalloch, Banffshire, (Scotland), UK (Surname: McDonald)
Palermo, Italy (Surname: Arcuni)
Shtip, Macedonia (Surname: Todorov)
Madrid (or Mallorca), Spain (Surname: Madrigal)
Nassau, Bahamas (Surname: Major)
County Cork, Ireland (Surname: Bernard)
Arboleas, Spain (Surname: de Veraguas)
Matute, Spain (Surname: Lopez)

Locations where T-L446+ (as per FTDNA):

KY/TX, USA (Surname: Powell)
VA (UK), USA (Surname: Sizemore)
VA, USA (Surname: Powell)
Hamburg, Germany (Surname: Golditz)
Schleswig-Holstein, Germany (Surname: Kile)
Kuwait (Surname: *? Abdullah Kuwait)
FL/NY, USA (Surname: Mason)
Strabane, County Tryone (Northern Ireland), UK (Surname: Knox)
NC, USA (Surname: Knox)


I also continue to thank you on all the help and information you are providing me with.

Sile
25-02-14, 19:12
This, Pinar del Rio Province, means - Canal of fish fins.
Rio is a boatable canal/river, if it was unboatable it would be a Fos.

Unsure if the Genoese used the word Rio

Huracan
25-02-14, 19:50
Also, I had assumed that Fondera was a non-Catalán surname because it means "barkeeper" or "innkeeper" in Castilian (Spanish). Joseph Fondera could have easily been a Castilian whose name was recorded differently and had migrated to Cataluña in the 1670s and 80s.

Huracan
25-02-14, 20:44
This, Pinar del Rio Province, means - Canal of fish fins.
Rio is a boatable canal/river, if it was unboatable it would be a Fos.

Unsure if the Genoese used the word Rio

At the time that these Genoese (called Ligurian by one source) and Venetian sailors would have shipwrecked on the western coast of Cuba (1605), the province was referred to as Nuevas Filipinas or "New Philippines" due to the transfer and connection with the tobacco plantations in the Philippines and the huge influx of Filipinos, both caused by the Manila Galleons (they sailed every year or twice a year between Manila to Acapulco from 1565-1815). It was in 1774 that the province was renamed Pinar del Río which translates literally into "pinewood of the river", referring to the pine forest found along the River Guamá.

However, in regards to Mantua, its founding by shipwrecked Italian sailors (who landed at the coastal location known as los Arroyos de Mantua) who wandered inland and created a settlement is an oral tradition passed down through the generations by the townspeople. I recently looked up sources about the subject and one confirmed that, around that time, the Pope had stated in a document regarding an Italian ship, either named Mantua or had some relation with Mantua in Lombardy, being confused for pirates by the English and being pursued until it crashed into the coral reefs. Another source suggests the possibility that the ship was ordered into a secret expedition to the New World by Duke Vincenzo I Gonzago of Mantua. Either way, the settlement became an official town in 1716 under the name of Guane del Norte and later came to be officially called Mantua. Currently, Italian surnames, such as Ferrari, Pitaluga, and Fiorenzana, are found there. Also, a source noted the lack of Italian surnames recorded in Mantua during the Cuban revolution by General Maceo, but it was because he was received by the Spaniard population of the town, who were more well-off, while those of Italian descent (the fishermen and farmers) were not documented.

Sile
25-02-14, 22:27
At the time that these Genoese (called Ligurian by one source) and Venetian sailors would have shipwrecked on the western coast of Cuba (1605), the province was referred to as Nuevas Filipinas or "New Philippines" due to the transfer and connection with the tobacco plantations in the Philippines and the huge influx of Filipinos, both caused by the Manila Galleons (they sailed every year or twice a year between Manila to Acapulco from 1565-1815). It was in 1774 that the province was renamed Pinar del Río which translates literally into "pinewood of the river", referring to the pine forest found along the River Guamá.

However, in regards to Mantua, its founding by shipwrecked Italian sailors (who landed at the coastal location known as los Arroyos de Mantua) who wandered inland and created a settlement is an oral tradition passed down through the generations by the townspeople. I recently looked up sources about the subject and one confirmed that, around that time, the Pope had stated in a document regarding an Italian ship, either named Mantua or had some relation with Mantua in Lombardy, being confused for pirates by the English and being pursued until it crashed into the coral reefs. Another source suggests the possibility that the ship was ordered into a secret expedition to the New World by Duke Vincenzo I Gonzago of Mantua. Either way, the settlement became an official town in 1716 under the name of Guane del Norte and later came to be officially called Mantua. Currently, Italian surnames, such as Ferrari, Pitaluga, and Fiorenzana, are found there. Also, a source noted the lack of Italian surnames recorded in Mantua during the Cuban revolution by General Maceo, but it was because he was received by the Spaniard population of the town, who were more well-off, while those of Italian descent (the fishermen and farmers) were not documented.

yes
Pin = Pine

But pinewood in venetian is Pes'ara...........Pinar must be genoese or piemontese dialect

The Gonzagas of Mantua ( montova ) married into the french aristocracy ( the house of Nevers and also the house of Lorraine )..........this can be another path for you.

Huracan
25-02-14, 22:33
http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Sile http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=427042#post427042)
...and Yes, there is a big chance that french and catalan play a role in L446, there are about 5% of T in Auvergne and another 5% in Alsace. I assume catalan should have it especially since Ibiza has a lot of T...



I personally thought that a French/Catalán origin was less likely because L446 was not found in Iberia and was restricted to NW Europe (mostly the British Isles, the Low Countries, Germany, Scandinavia), the Eastern Alps, and parts of Eastern Europe (Romania and Poland), although you did mention a small presence in La Rochelle, France. In fact, the French/Catalán origin was one I personally suggested due to an educated guess based on: the etymological similarity of Fondera (and its misspelling in church records as Fundera), the historic migration of Catalanes to Cuba, and the fact that the earliest individual bearing the Fondera surname was named Joseph Fondera (b. ca. 1660s) - the name Joseph in Catalán would have been spelled as Josep, as are his grandchildren in the records, and the nearest place that spelled it that way was France and the French surname Fonder (found in France and the Ardennes region of Belgium) seemed as a logical precursor to Fondera. There is a possibility that I may be completely wrong because I based this on a slew of assumptions.

Here is a T-subclade map I found on the Internet that may be of use for interpretation and analysis: eng.molgen(dot)org/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1299 (I couldn't post the image directly, it was too large of a file)

Also, here is what I found from FTDNA based on those individuals who tested for L131 and L446:
Locations where T-L131+ (as per FTDNA):


Shchedrin, Belarus (Surname: Epstein)
Bushtyno, Zakarpats’ka oblast, Ukraine (Surname: Lebovics)
Harran, Turkey (Surname: Terakh)
Różan, Poland (Surname: Jezernicki)
Germany (Surname: Rauch)
Radóc, Romania (Surname: György)
Valenciennes, France (Surname: Rapalje)
Guano Canton, Ecuador (Surname: Guerra)
Van Province, Turkey (Surname: Ardzrooni [Armenian])
Tibeni, Romania (Surname: Gyorgy [Transylvania])
Bacău, Romania (Surname: Lazar)
Musano, Treviso, Veneto, Italy (Surname: Pretotto)
Trowbridge, Wiltshire, UK (Surname: Corson)
Dipignano Cosenza, Italy (Surname: Laccino)
Alsace, France (Surname: Miller)
Tolkmicko, Poland (Surname: Hohenfeld)
Ciripcau, Moldova (Surname: Karapcivsky)
Schmerikon, Sankt Gallen, Schweiz (Switzerland) (Surname: Blarer)
Morshansk, Tambov Oblast, Russia (Surname: Vavilov)
Alsace-Lorraine, France (Surname: Dufford)
Mordovia, Russia (Surname: Bulgakov)


Predicted L131+:


Burscheid, Germany (Surname: Erlenkoetter)
Sicily, Italy (?)
Tomnavoulin, Ballindalloch, Banffshire, (Scotland), UK (Surname: McDonald)
Palermo, Italy (Surname: Arcuni)
Shtip, Macedonia (Surname: Todorov)
Madrid (or Mallorca), Spain (Surname: Madrigal)
Nassau, Bahamas (Surname: Major)
County Cork, Ireland (Surname: Bernard)
Arboleas, Spain (Surname: de Veraguas)
Matute, Spain (Surname: Lopez)


Locations where T-L446+ (as per FTDNA):


KY/TX, USA (Surname: Powell)
VA (UK), USA (Surname: Sizemore)
VA, USA (Surname: Powell)
Hamburg, Germany (Surname: Golditz)
Schleswig-Holstein, Germany (Surname: Kile)
Kuwait (Surname: *? Abdullah Kuwait)
FL/NY, USA (Surname: Mason)
Strabane, County Tryone (Northern Ireland), UK (Surname: Knox)
NC, USA (Surname: Knox)



I also continue to thank you on all the help and information you are providing me with.

Huracan
25-02-14, 22:34
yes
Pin = Pine

But pinewood in venetian is Pes'ara...........Pinar must be genoese or piemontese dialect

The Gonzagas of Mantua ( montova ) married into the french aristocracy ( the house of Nevers and also the house of Lorraine )..........this can be another path for you.

Oh wow, I will take that into consideration.

Sile
25-02-14, 23:03
http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Sile http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=427042#post427042)
...and Yes, there is a big chance that french and catalan play a role in L446, there are about 5% of T in Auvergne and another 5% in Alsace. I assume catalan should have it especially since Ibiza has a lot of T...



I personally thought that a French/Catalán origin was less likely because L446 was not found in Iberia and was restricted to NW Europe (mostly the British Isles, the Low Countries, Germany, Scandinavia), the Eastern Alps, and parts of Eastern Europe (Romania and Poland), although you did mention a small presence in La Rochelle, France. In fact, the French/Catalán origin was one I personally suggested due to an educated guess based on: the etymological similarity of Fondera (and its misspelling in church records as Fundera), the historic migration of Catalanes to Cuba, and the fact that the earliest individual bearing the Fondera surname was named Joseph Fondera (b. ca. 1660s) - the name Joseph in Catalán would have been spelled as Josep, as are his grandchildren in the records, and the nearest place that spelled it that way was France and the French surname Fonder (found in France and the Ardennes region of Belgium) seemed as a logical precursor to Fondera. There is a possibility that I may be completely wrong because I based this on a slew of assumptions.

Here is a T-subclade map I found on the Internet that may be of use for interpretation and analysis: eng.molgen(dot)org/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1299 (I couldn't post the image directly, it was too large of a file)

Also, here is what I found from FTDNA based on those individuals who tested for L131 and L446:
Locations where T-L131+ (as per FTDNA):


Shchedrin, Belarus (Surname: Epstein)
Bushtyno, Zakarpats’ka oblast, Ukraine (Surname: Lebovics)
Harran, Turkey (Surname: Terakh)
Różan, Poland (Surname: Jezernicki)
Germany (Surname: Rauch)
Radóc, Romania (Surname: György)
Valenciennes, France (Surname: Rapalje)
Guano Canton, Ecuador (Surname: Guerra)
Van Province, Turkey (Surname: Ardzrooni [Armenian])
Tibeni, Romania (Surname: Gyorgy [Transylvania])
Bacău, Romania (Surname: Lazar)
Musano, Treviso, Veneto, Italy (Surname: Pretotto)
Trowbridge, Wiltshire, UK (Surname: Corson)
Dipignano Cosenza, Italy (Surname: Laccino)
Alsace, France (Surname: Miller)
Tolkmicko, Poland (Surname: Hohenfeld)
Ciripcau, Moldova (Surname: Karapcivsky)
Schmerikon, Sankt Gallen, Schweiz (Switzerland) (Surname: Blarer)
Morshansk, Tambov Oblast, Russia (Surname: Vavilov)
Alsace-Lorraine, France (Surname: Dufford)
Mordovia, Russia (Surname: Bulgakov)


Predicted L131+:


Burscheid, Germany (Surname: Erlenkoetter)
Sicily, Italy (?)
Tomnavoulin, Ballindalloch, Banffshire, (Scotland), UK (Surname: McDonald)
Palermo, Italy (Surname: Arcuni)
Shtip, Macedonia (Surname: Todorov)
Madrid (or Mallorca), Spain (Surname: Madrigal)
Nassau, Bahamas (Surname: Major)
County Cork, Ireland (Surname: Bernard)
Arboleas, Spain (Surname: de Veraguas)
Matute, Spain (Surname: Lopez)


Locations where T-L446+ (as per FTDNA):


KY/TX, USA (Surname: Powell)
VA (UK), USA (Surname: Sizemore)
VA, USA (Surname: Powell)
Hamburg, Germany (Surname: Golditz)
Schleswig-Holstein, Germany (Surname: Kile)
Kuwait (Surname: *? Abdullah Kuwait)
FL/NY, USA (Surname: Mason)
Strabane, County Tryone (Northern Ireland), UK (Surname: Knox)
NC, USA (Surname: Knox)



I also continue to thank you on all the help and information you are providing me with.

I have a ancestor from 1745 from Morfumo Veneto with the surname Forner ..............which is similar

of the list you gave
Rapalje is not his true name, Guerra was originally Goera ( same meaning of war), Corson, ancestors are from Sondrio Lombardia and name originates from Corse which means corsican, Blarer is from the 12th century, Hohenfeld is a Prussian,

none of the L131 list are L446

Powell not related to me , although Thomas Powell is close in marker with me.
Sizemore could be ...........horsetrader and slaver from scotland.
Kile not related to me.
Kuwait person originated from northern syria.
Mason unsure, but same spelling and surname is in northern Italy.
Knox could have some ties.

If you think you have some alpine ties, then write to Chris in the Ftdna ALPGEN project and he maybe can check his data....he is very helpful

http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/all-snp-maps/
select SNP above and see the L446 in the world....info is gathered from all testing sites..BUT only 67 markers and above ( seems they want to ensure accuracy)

Huracan
26-02-14, 21:37
Powell not related to me , although Thomas Powell is close in marker with me.
Sizemore could be ...........horsetrader and slaver from scotland.
Kile not related to me.
Kuwait person originated from northern syria.
Mason unsure, but same spelling and surname is in northern Italy.
Knox could have some ties.

If you think you have some alpine ties, then write to Chris in the Ftdna ALPGEN project and he maybe can check his data....he is very helpful

http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/all-snp-maps/
select SNP above and see the L446 in the world....info is gathered from all testing sites..BUT only 67 markers and above ( seems they want to ensure accuracy)

How did you discover your relation to them? Is this an option that FTDNA provides? (I wouldn't know, I have yet to actually test myself with them)

And yes, I also joined the AlpGen project and contacted Chris. Yet both Gareth (from the T project) and Chris have not responded.

I checked out the snp map for L446 on semargl, very interesting. How did T (L131, P322, P328, and L446) get that far north? Also, what are your opinions on the origins/locations of T and it's subclades? Would L446 be a marker characteristic of Neolithic peoples entering Central and Northern Europe via the Danube?

Sile
27-02-14, 08:04
How did you discover your relation to them? Is this an option that FTDNA provides? (I wouldn't know, I have yet to actually test myself with them)

And yes, I also joined the AlpGen project and contacted Chris. Yet both Gareth (from the T project) and Chris have not responded.

I checked out the snp map for L446 on semargl, very interesting. How did T (L131, P322, P328, and L446) get that far north? Also, what are your opinions on the origins/locations of T and it's subclades? Would L446 be a marker characteristic of Neolithic peoples entering Central and Northern Europe via the Danube?

I wrote to them. In ftdna there are for each individual, an email icon, a note icon and 2 others

Chris will reply , earlier than gareth....sometimes you need to email other contact instead of Gareth....I think other guy is Finnish

yes I presume the danube is one avenue, there are also T in estonia, so up the dniepr river and other could be a view. I believe T was part of the hunter gatherers with some farming of late. Some believe T was hunter and herders.

Since you are positive L446 , you will be negative P322 and P328 ...................nat geo2 does not give ftdna any negative markers

Huracan
27-02-14, 21:37
But I wonder if it's possible that T came along with the Indo-Europeans (i.e. Celts, Italics, etc.) as they expanded through Eastern Europe and the Balkans (being "picked up" and carried along with their migrations from the steppes and Black Sea areas)...Or if the T of the Alpine area (L446) was displaced into the mountains due to the invading Indo-Europeans (namely Celts and Gauls), as seen in other peoples of the area, namely regarding one of the competing theories for the origins of the Rhaetians of northern Italy and Switzerland.

I am trying to wrap my head around all the numerous theories. Thanks.

Huracan
28-02-14, 19:46
Has there ever been a study that calculates the ages of the haplotypes of the other subclades of T? Like the TMRCA of P322/P327/P328 and L466? I know Mendez, et al. (http://www.familytreedna.com/PDF/MendezHumBiol2011.pdf) computes them for P326, M184, M70, P77, and L131. Or what about the other haplotypes in Europe, to understand when they actually entered the continent (i.e. early Neolithic farmers, pastoralists, or hunter-herders; Bronze Age migrants; classical times [Romans, Greeks, Arabs, etc.]; Jewish Diaspora, etc.)

Sile
28-02-14, 20:30
But I wonder if it's possible that T came along with the Indo-Europeans (i.e. Celts, Italics, etc.) as they expanded through Eastern Europe and the Balkans (being "picked up" and carried along with their migrations from the steppes and Black Sea areas)...Or if the T of the Alpine area (L446) was displaced into the mountains due to the invading Indo-Europeans (namely Celts and Gauls), as seen in other peoples of the area, namely regarding one of the competing theories for the origins of the Rhaetians of northern Italy and Switzerland.

I am trying to wrap my head around all the numerous theories. Thanks.

Celts came down into the alps from central germany, Gauls came from swiss and french areas ( from the west ). Raetians are stated as speaking a branch of west-semetic language , akkadian ( assyrian ).......!?


Natgeno2 states basal origins of L131 as Caucasus and south germany.............they state a migrational link ( path)

eupedia states
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA.shtml

I have no issue with your theories............

Sile
28-02-14, 20:34
Has there ever been a study that calculates the ages of the haplotypes of the other subclades of T? Like the TMRCA of P322/P327/P328 and L466? I know Mendez, et al. (http://www.familytreedna.com/PDF/MendezHumBiol2011.pdf) computes them for P326, M184, M70, P77, and L131. Or what about the other haplotypes in Europe, to understand when they actually entered the continent (i.e. early Neolithic farmers, pastoralists, or hunter-herders; Bronze Age migrants; classical times [Romans, Greeks, Arabs, etc.]; Jewish Diaspora, etc.)

I can only imagine L446 to have always appeared as 1 part of the L131 branch but was never "discovered"...........Its like the new Y tests being done.....new SNPs are being found in certain Haplotypes that have always been there.

Samaniego
09-03-14, 02:15
I like to share informs
My ancestors are both from de Baque Country

Huracan
10-03-14, 18:52
@Samaniego oh wow! You will be the first person from Spain that has T-L131 that I have into contact with! I too have Basque ancestry, but on my paternal grandmother's side. My earliest paternal ancestor that I can get a hold of is my four-times great grandfather, Luis Fundora Miranda, born about 1809 in Cuba. We still don't know the exact origin of our surname (Funddora) and we suspect his ancestors may have come from Spain or Europe in general. I have L446 which is downstream of L131 and is not found at all in Spain.

Sile
27-04-14, 11:16
@Samaniego oh wow! You will be the first person from Spain that has T-L131 that I have into contact with! I too have Basque ancestry, but on my paternal grandmother's side. My earliest paternal ancestor that I can get a hold of is my four-times great grandfather, Luis Fundora Miranda, born about 1809 in Cuba. We still don't know the exact origin of our surname (Funddora) and we suspect his ancestors may have come from Spain or Europe in general. I have L446 which is downstream of L131 and is not found at all in Spain.

you stated you have T-CTS11984 which is downstream from L446 ( Its one of the 5 sub-branches of L446 ). Your branch is Tyrolese/Trentino/Grison group..........I do not know why you are thinking its Spanish. You ancestors most likely left for the new world in the mid 18th Century.

Sile
28-04-14, 05:01
@fundora

My natgen 2 marker is CTS8862 , which is another step lower in the branch than your CTS11984

Sile
29-04-14, 12:00
After some discussion with project managers,
due to the fact I do not have T-M184 as part of my ydna marker, but have the other one, T-M272, then it was said I am not via the M-184 mesopotamian line but the North Caucasus line ( only basal M272 found currently is stated as an Avar).
But then the 6th century Avars is too late for me, but still, it must be someone from this area in the bronze-age ( or before) that moved to the alps.

I do not know what to make of this

Huracan
16-05-14, 05:20
Wait, how did you know it was one of the 5-sub-branches? Where did you find this information? I would greatly appreciate this, Sile.

I didn't think it was Spanish. All I can guess at right now was that the parents of my earliest known paternal ancestor were Spanish, as most Cubans are. I have yet to pinpoint my exact origins. Thanks for your input! :)

Huracan
16-05-14, 05:21
Oh, did you recently test with Nat Geno? I can't remember if you said in a past post, it's been about a month or more since I have been active on Eupedia.

And this is interesting information!!! :D

Huracan
16-05-14, 05:25
After some discussion with project managers,
due to the fact I do not have T-M184 as part of my ydna marker, but have the other one, T-M272, then it was said I am not via the M-184 mesopotamian line but the North Caucasus line ( only basal M272 found currently is stated as an Avar).
But then the 6th century Avars is too late for me, but still, it must be someone from this area in the bronze-age ( or before) that moved to the alps.

I do not know what to make of this

I too am only positive for M272.

Huracan
16-05-14, 05:29
@fundora

My natgen 2 marker is CTS8862 , which is another step lower in the branch than your CTS11984

Oh turns out I am also CTS8862+, I would greatly appreciate the information and source regarding these sub-branches! I am getting excited! :D

Huracan
17-05-14, 20:00
you stated you have T-CTS11984 which is downstream from L446 ( Its one of the 5 sub-branches of L446 ). Your branch is Tyrolese/Trentino/Grison group..........I do not know why you are thinking its Spanish. You ancestors most likely left for the new world in the mid 18th Century.
6435
Sile, I recently found the 5 sub-branches you were talking about. This is interesting stuff! Currently on ysearch trying to investigate the genetic distance between me and other old T1b (L131+) members from FTDNA.

Sile
17-05-14, 22:05
6435
Sile, I recently found the 5 sub-branches you were talking about. This is interesting stuff! Currently on ysearch trying to investigate the genetic distance between me and other old T1b (L131+) members from FTDNA.

As I mentioned in other T thread ...............ftdna are wrong in SNP - Pages00113 and L25

Pager00113 is in the L group
http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse_details/chrY?ref=ChrY;start=2713589;end=2713589;name=PAGES 00113;class=Sequence;feature_id=416;db_id=chrY%3Ad atabase

and L25 is in the J group

Pages00011 is correct in that it is T group .................but since you are CTS8862 , you will be negative for Pages00011 , UNLESS ftdna tree in that area is in error

Huracan
26-05-14, 05:23
And @Sile, interesting news! Fundora instead may come from (di) Fondora, a surname that seems to emanate from Lucca in Tuscany and may have prior connections in Emilia-Romagna (I think Sorbano [now Sarsina or part of it] but I have yet to interpret the translations in full yet). The Fondoras were bankers, as was the prime business of Lucca, and had connections with nearby Genoa (Lucca is very close to Genoa/Liguria). They would have spread to Genoa or simply migrated in association with them to the Canary Islands in the 15th and 16th centuries and from there to Cuba. This makes my CTS8862 marker more in line with an Alpine origin of Northern Italy. Still working out everything and getting in touch with more Fundoras but this seems to be a promising theory regarding my ancestry. :)

Sile
26-05-14, 07:52
And @Sile, interesting news! Fundora instead may come from (di) Fondora, a surname that seems to emanate from Lucca in Tuscany and may have prior connections in Emilia-Romagna (I think Sorbano [now Sarsina or part of it] but I have yet to interpret the translations in full yet). The Fondoras were bankers, as was the prime business of Lucca, and had connections with nearby Genoa (Lucca is very close to Genoa/Liguria). They would have spread to Genoa or simply migrated in association with them to the Canary Islands in the 15th and 16th centuries and from there to Cuba. This makes my CTS8862 marker more in line with an Alpine origin of Northern Italy. Still working out everything and getting in touch with more Fundoras but this seems to be a promising theory regarding my ancestry. :)

I know Lucca as I have an aunt from my maternal side living there.

The genoese where the merchant bankers of the Crown of Spain during the renaissance. You should check spanish archives for genoese bankers in employment for Spain

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/l446andcts8862_zps3f413ba3.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/l446andcts8862_zps3f413ba3.jpg.html)

only cts8862 in crimson colour which are also L446............the pink is only L446


In my opinion CTS8862 will be moved to a minor SNP marker and we will get L1322 or Pages00011 once its available for testing . These will be the only 2 lines coming out from L446+

FrankN
26-05-14, 16:15
Also, here is what I found from FTDNA based on those individuals who tested for L131 and L446:
Locations where T-L131+ (as per FTDNA):

Germany (Surname: Rauch)


The name "Rauch" may have several etymological origins:


Rauch = smoke, fume, indicating a profession that is associated with producing fume, e.g. metallurgy.
from "rau" = raw, rough. Thought to have designated people with "raw", i.e. scrubby appearance, or with rough manners.
possible Germanisation of ital. roca, fr. roche (rock), etc.

Here is the name distribution map according to German telephone register entries:

6447
Source: http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/Hauptseite (a very useful site if you want to research on German genealogy, and can comprehend a bit of German).

Don't know if it really helps, but I thought I post it anyway, if only as food for thought.

Sile
26-05-14, 20:30
The name "Rauch" may have several etymological origins:


Rauch = smoke, fume, indicating a profession that is associated with producing fume, e.g. metallurgy.
from "rau" = raw, rough. Thought to have designated people with "raw", i.e. scrubby appearance, or with rough manners.
possible Germanisation of ital. roca, fr. roche (rock), etc.

Here is the name distribution map according to German telephone register entries:

6447
Source: http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/Hauptseite (a very useful site if you want to research on German genealogy, and can comprehend a bit of German).

Don't know if it really helps, but I thought I post it anyway, if only as food for thought.

roca, rocca = tower ............as in a rook in chess
Rocca translated into English = fortress, rock, stronghold

rocce = rocks in Italian............sassi = stones

thanks for the link...Rauch a person who has minor links with me.........similar to the northern German named Kile

What does the map state?

I do have some genetic links with a town called Ravenstein .....IIRC the person who told me says its in Baden-Baden

Huracan
26-05-14, 21:01
Sile, a recent discussion with a man, whose wife's four-times great grandmother was named Flora Fundora Y Abad, revealed that she was born in the Canary Islands and her family was from there and have been there for as long as anyone can remember but had originated in Spain. The wife's grandmother, Flora's granddaughter, said after asking around in Spain that Fundora means something along the lines of founder or foundry but do not know where exactly in Spain it comes from.

So now my question is, how would L446, let alone CTS11984 and CTS8862. would have made it into Spain?

Sile
26-05-14, 21:20
Sile, a recent discussion with a man, whose wife's four-times great grandmother was named Flora Fundora Y Abad, revealed that she was born in the Canary Islands and her family was from there and have been there for as long as anyone can remember but had originated in Spain. The wife's grandmother, Flora's granddaughter, said after asking around in Spain that Fundora means something along the lines of founder or foundry but do not know where exactly in Spain it comes from.

So now my question is, how would L446, let alone CTS11984 and CTS8862. would have made it into Spain?

I do not know about Spain as i cannot find any names similar to yours there, but in Italy

Antica famiglia lucchese, detta nel secolo XIII de' Bujoli, e chiamata poi dei Fondora dai luoghi di loro proprietà. Ebbe numerosi Anziani nella Repubblica dal secolo XIV al XVIII, e nel secolo XV alcuni maestri della zecca di Lucca. Il più noto della famiglia è Lazzaro de Fondora, dovizioso mercante, che fece erigere nel 1309 la chiesa di S. Maria e S. Francesco nei borghi della città, donandola ai Frati .... continua

From Lucca italy above, year from 1309..............Zecca = mint , where money is made

or

Le memorie di questa famiglia ricordano come capo stipite delle due linee, milanese, cioè, e veneto-dalmata, un Tommaso de Fondra che da Sigismondo imperatore con diploma datato a Milano, fu nel 1413 creato barone dell'impero. Si stabilì in Venezia sul principio del secolo XVI, ove un Lorenzo fu dal doge Pasquale Cicogna fatto conte palatino. Il primo di questa casa che si fermasse in Sebenico fu un Ferdinando cancelliere nel .... continua

Origin Milanese with links with Veneto and Dalmatia .

If you think they are bankers, check Spain archives

FrankN
26-05-14, 23:26
What does the map state?

I do have some genetic links with a town called Ravenstein .....IIRC the person who told me says its in Baden-Baden
The map displays the relative frequency of the name among all telephone book entries. Geographical base unit is the county (German: Landkreis). The frequencies here are given as x per million (Rauch is a relatively rare name), the colouring goes from 10-155 occurrences per million (light orange) to more than 620 occurrences per million (dark red).

Ravenstein is in Baden-Würtemberg, approx. 90 km NNE of Stuttgart and 70 km SSW of Wurzburg. On the Rauch name frequency map, you will note a dark red county in south-central Germany (Main-Spessart County), surrounded by a few darker orange counties. If you go to the one directly south, and a bit beyond its SW corner, that's where Ravenstein is located.

Huracan
09-07-14, 16:11
It's been a while since I last posted here but I have recently found out some interesting information.

I found out that my father's Y-STRs were tested and using the values for his 12 Y-STRs, I inputted them into Ysearch. I did not get back any 0 step matches or even 1 step matches. The closest genetic matches I got were two men: one with the surname Foster (earliest paternal ancestor from Germany) and the other Atwell (earliest paternal ancestor from Northumberland, England). They were 2 steps away from me, which FTDNA and Ysearch denote as "Probably Not Related." They go on to say that "you are unlikely to share a common male ancestor within the genealogical time frame." So does that mean we share a common male ancestor, just really long ago?

Using the patterns seen in between the generations to the MRCA for 25 and 37 STRs, I calculated that there is a 95% probability that I share a common male ancestor with them some 66 generations ago. I am not sure if the math of the whole system was predictable enough for me to go on to do that but I did it anyways. Afterwards, I then predicted that since the average age men have had children is roughly 20-25 years, that 66 generations ago is between 1,320 to 1,650 years ago (or 364-694 CE). I cannot accurately interpret what this means, for I have a tendency to go down a slippery slope of assumptions.

Also, the next closest matches (3 steps) were 5 individuals: 4 from the US (Frush, Atwell, Curtiss, Owens) and 1 German (Frush).

Furthermore, the individuals that have tested CTS8862+ from FTDNA and CTS11984+ were all 5-6 steps away from me (Pretotto, Knox, and Espinoza).

Sile
09-07-14, 20:58
It's been a while since I last posted here but I have recently found out some interesting information.

I found out that my father's Y-STRs were tested and using the values for his 12 Y-STRs, I inputted them into Ysearch. I did not get back any 0 step matches or even 1 step matches. The closest genetic matches I got were two men: one with the surname Foster (earliest paternal ancestor from Germany) and the other Atwell (earliest paternal ancestor from Northumberland, England). They were 2 steps away from me, which FTDNA and Ysearch denote as "Probably Not Related." They go on to say that "you are unlikely to share a common male ancestor within the genealogical time frame." So does that mean we share a common male ancestor, just really long ago?

Using the patterns seen in between the generations to the MRCA for 25 and 37 STRs, I calculated that there is a 95% probability that I share a common male ancestor with them some 66 generations ago. I am not sure if the math of the whole system was predictable enough for me to go on to do that but I did it anyways. Afterwards, I then predicted that since the average age men have had children is roughly 20-25 years, that 66 generations ago is between 1,320 to 1,650 years ago (or 364-694 CE). I cannot accurately interpret what this means, for I have a tendency to go down a slippery slope of assumptions.

Also, the next closest matches (3 steps) were 5 individuals: 4 from the US (Frush, Atwell, Curtiss, Owens) and 1 German (Frush).

Furthermore, the individuals that have tested CTS8862+ from FTDNA and CTS11984+ were all 5-6 steps away from me (Pretotto, Knox, and Espinoza).

Do you have a match with surname Dalessio, or D'Alessio or Lessio or Less......he is CTS8862 states he was from south Italy ( but surname does not indicate this) and being south italy was/must used by Spanish kings in overseas duties.
his ysearch is YSU4S

I am 5 steps from you with individuals Knox, Ahmann ( Prussia), Parker ( England) Mueller ( Bavaria) Foester ( salzburg Austria). I wrote to knox and they have no record before 1500 for their T person called MASON .
Mason appears 800 times in north Italy and is prounanced ( MAh ...zon ) , There are also hundreds of a Mazzon surname in north italy

Huracan
09-07-14, 22:18
Hold on, these are the Y-STR results from Nat Geno 1.0 (which my father did):

DYS 393: 13
DYS19: 12
DYS 391: 10
DYS 439: 11
DYS 389i: 14
DYS 389ii: 16
DYS388: 12
DYS390: 22
DYS426: 11
DYS385a: 13
DYS385b: 16
DYS392: 13

When I was inputting them for the first time, I incorrectly converted DYS389i and DYS389ii using the Oxford Ancestors conversion because I couldn't find the original values in the drop-down menu. Now, going back, I realized that that didn't make any sense. I look on FTDNA and they said this:

"The second way is to show the result only for the second section that is tested by subtracting the DYS389-1 score from the original second test score. This is how the Genographic Project 1.0 test displayed the result. Some older publications also used this method.
As long as you know which method is being used, you can convert between the two. For example, you add together the two DYS389 values from the Genographic Project to get the DYS389-2 value for Family Tree DNA. To convert to m+n,p+q format, subtract the DYS389-1 value from DYS389-2 from your Family Tree DNA results. This is the DYS389-2 value for the Genographic Project and elsewhere."

I therefore added 14 and 16 to get 30, the FTDNA value for DYS389ii compatible with Ysearch.

Upon doing this, I got these results: (Note that the results are now overwhelming)








Compare
User ID
Pedigree
Last Name
Origin
Haplogroup
Tested With
Markers Compared
Genetic Distance



EH8QF (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=EH8QF&p=0)

Frush
Maryland, USA
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
0



HD93F (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=HD93F&p=0)

Curtiss
Stratford, Fairfield,, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
0



J96SK (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=J96SK&p=0)

Frush
Germany
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
0



X86AQ (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=X86AQ&p=0)

Fundora
San Antonio de Río Blanco del Norte, La Habana, Cuba
T1b*
Genographic Project
12
0



Z4JWV (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=Z4JWV&p=0)

Foster
Germany
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
1



SBMFF (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=SBMFF&p=0)

Micchia
Casignana, Reggio Calabria, Italy
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
1



SCYYM (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=SCYYM&p=0)

Carvalho
Campos de Cunha - São Paulo, Brazil
T1*
Family Tree DNA
12
1



TWUU6 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=TWUU6&p=0)

Vecchio
Italy
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
1



FKKA3 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=FKKA3&p=0)
Show (http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=FKKA3)
Atwell
Northumberland, England
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
1



4BCTS (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=4BCTS&p=0)

Bernard
Ireland
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
1



7JAQZ (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=7JAQZ&p=0)

Bauer
Unknown
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
1



7MYJH (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=7MYJH&p=0)

Riva
Cagliari, Italy
Unknown
Other - SMGF
12
2



7S3PX (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=7S3PX&p=0)

Bulgakov
Mordvinien, Russia
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



7W8GR (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=7W8GR&p=0)

Martin
Unknown
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2



84P6X (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=84P6X&p=0)

Pivovitz
Tykocin, Poland
T1*
Family Tree DNA
12
2



85S98 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=85S98&p=0)

Knox
Strabane, Northern Ireland
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



8P6P5 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=8P6P5&p=0)

Groen
Netherlands
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2



8TTV3 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=8TTV3&p=0)

McKinley
Unknown
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2



9FQV7 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=9FQV7&p=0)

Tulupov
Kursk region, Russia
T1*
Family Tree DNA
12
2



9U5RZ (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=9U5RZ&p=0)

Luddington
New York, USA
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2



9Z3Q4 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=9Z3Q4&p=0)

Knox
Pitt County, North Carolina, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



B7EPU (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=B7EPU&p=0)
Show (http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=B7EPU)
Ahmann
Lienen, Preußen/Prussia, Germany
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



BMV54 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=BMV54&p=0)

Epstein
Bobruisk, Belarus
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



C2URV (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=C2URV&p=0)

Vavilov
Morshansk, Russia
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



4J56P (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=4J56P&p=0)

Anonymous Brazilian
Brazil
T1b*
Other - SMGF
12
2



5MVDN (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=5MVDN&p=0)

Hill
Darlington, South Carolina, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



75W9X (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=75W9X&p=0)

Hill
Tennessee, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



27V79 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=27V79&p=0)

Fakes
Unknown
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



2WQH4 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=2WQH4&p=0)

Hill
Tennessee, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



3FURP (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=3FURP&p=0)

Lazar
Unknown
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2



FMW5U (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=FMW5U&p=0)
Show (http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=FMW5U)
Blarer C/o Phytax Gmbh
St. Gallen, Switzerland
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



FZ3K4 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=FZ3K4&p=0)

Dean
Unknown
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2



G8NSN (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=G8NSN&p=0)

Guerra
Ecuador
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2



GFXYD (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=GFXYD&p=0)

Cleveland, Cleaveland
Unknown
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2



GNY7X (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=GNY7X&p=0)

Hohenfeld
Tolkmicko, Poland
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



GH8YR (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=GH8YR&p=0)

Atwell
Virginia, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



DFEA3 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=DFEA3&p=0)
Show (http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=DFEA3)
Liss
Kartuz Bereza, Belarus
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



DG4TT (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=DG4TT&p=0)

Milligan
North Carolina, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



HVVYW (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=HVVYW&p=0)

Madrigal
madrid, Spain
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



JRWTZ (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=JRWTZ&p=0)

Lippi
Arezzo, Italy
Unknown
Other - SMGF
12
2



K3JXB (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=K3JXB&p=0)

Carson
Unknown
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



nrwwc (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=nrwwc&p=0)

Mason
West Palm Beach Florida, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



NUUFC (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=NUUFC&p=0)

Espinoza
Callao, Peru
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



P9K39 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=P9K39&p=0)

Murphy
Unknown
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2



PC6W3 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=PC6W3&p=0)

Velasco
Puerto Rico
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



PTD7V (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=PTD7V&p=0)

Carver
Krzepice, Poland
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2



T8WMY (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=T8WMY&p=0)

Russo
Camposano, Province of Naples, Italy
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



SJ4CJ (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=SJ4CJ&p=0)
Show (http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=SJ4CJ)
Hill
Unknown
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2



SYJCU (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=SYJCU&p=0)

Fauth
Rastatt, Alsace/Elsaß, Germany
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2



R3MRH (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=R3MRH&p=0)

Black
Ireland
Unknown
Genographic Project
12
2



RK58S (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=RK58S&p=0)

Hill
Packsville (Paxville), USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



YUQVH (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=YUQVH&p=0)

Teaford
Nancy, Alsace-Lorraine/Elsass-Lothringen, France
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



XYSQ3 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=XYSQ3&p=0)

Alvarado
Spain
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



Y4B44 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=Y4B44&p=0)

Mitchell
North Carolina, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



WAERQ (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=WAERQ&p=0)

Owens
Henry County, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



WJRFG (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=WJRFG&p=0)

Pivovitz
Tykocin, Poland
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2







Can you assist me in understanding these? I only showed up to the 2 steps because the list was extremely​ long

Huracan
09-07-14, 22:23
This was just using the genetic matches option for all haplogroups. This is what I got when I tested within our haplogroup (the most exact I could get was T1b):




Compare
User ID
Pedigree
Last Name
Origin
Haplogroup
Tested With
Markers Compared
Genetic Distance



X86AQ (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=X86AQ&p=0)

Fundora
San Antonio de Río Blanco del Norte, La Habana, Cuba
T1b*
Genographic Project
12
0



4J56P (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=4J56P&p=0)

Anonymous Brazilian
Brazil
T1b*
Other - SMGF
12
2



YUQVH (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=YUQVH&p=0)

Teaford
Nancy, Alsace-Lorraine/Elsass-Lothringen, France
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



7S3PX (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=7S3PX&p=0)

Bulgakov
Mordvinien, Russia
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



C2URV (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=C2URV&p=0)

Vavilov
Morshansk, Russia
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



XYSQ3 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=XYSQ3&p=0)

Alvarado
Spain
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



FMW5U (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=FMW5U&p=0)
Show (http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=FMW5U)
Blarer C/o Phytax Gmbh
St. Gallen, Switzerland
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



85S98 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=85S98&p=0)

Knox
Strabane, Northern Ireland
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



NUUFC (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=NUUFC&p=0)

Espinoza
Callao, Peru
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



U7KWS (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=U7KWS&p=0)

Gyorgy
Istensegits, Bukowina, Transylvania, Romania
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
3



SBN6R (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=SBN6R&p=0)

Rappleye
Unknown
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
3



X43UQ (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=X43UQ&p=0)

pretotto
Treviso, Italy
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
3



3D7EU (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=3D7EU&p=0)

Wingate
London, England
T1b*
Oxford Ancestors
12
3



GCX5C (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=GCX5C&p=0)

La Rochelle
La Rochelle, France
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
3



23U9K (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=23U9K&p=0)

Parker
England
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
4



3QECG (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=3QECG&p=0)

Hulpiau
Belgium
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
6

Sile
10-07-14, 07:45
Hold on, these are the Y-STR results from Nat Geno 1.0 (which my father did):

DYS 393: 13
DYS19: 12
DYS 391: 10
DYS 439: 11
DYS 389i: 14
DYS 389ii: 16
DYS388: 12
DYS390: 22
DYS426: 11
DYS385a: 13
DYS385b: 16
DYS392: 13

When I was inputting them for the first time, I incorrectly converted DYS389i and DYS389ii using the Oxford Ancestors conversion because I couldn't find the original values in the drop-down menu. Now, going back, I realized that that didn't make any sense. I look on FTDNA and they said this:

"The second way is to show the result only for the second section that is tested by subtracting the DYS389-1 score from the original second test score. This is how the Genographic Project 1.0 test displayed the result. Some older publications also used this method.
As long as you know which method is being used, you can convert between the two. For example, you add together the two DYS389 values from the Genographic Project to get the DYS389-2 value for Family Tree DNA. To convert to m+n,p+q format, subtract the DYS389-1 value from DYS389-2 from your Family Tree DNA results. This is the DYS389-2 value for the Genographic Project and elsewhere."

I therefore added 14 and 16 to get 30, the FTDNA value for DYS389ii compatible with Ysearch.

Upon doing this, I got these results: (Note that the results are now overwhelming)







Compare
User ID
Pedigree
Last Name
Origin
Haplogroup
Tested With
Markers Compared
Genetic Distance



EH8QF (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=EH8QF&p=0)

Frush
Maryland, USA
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
0



HD93F (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=HD93F&p=0)

Curtiss
Stratford, Fairfield,, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
0



J96SK (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=J96SK&p=0)

Frush
Germany
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
0



X86AQ (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=X86AQ&p=0)

Fundora
San Antonio de Río Blanco del Norte, La Habana, Cuba
T1b*
Genographic Project
12
0



Z4JWV (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=Z4JWV&p=0)

Foster
Germany
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
1



SBMFF (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=SBMFF&p=0)

Micchia
Casignana, Reggio Calabria, Italy
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
1



SCYYM (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=SCYYM&p=0)

Carvalho
Campos de Cunha - São Paulo, Brazil
T1*
Family Tree DNA
12
1



TWUU6 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=TWUU6&p=0)

Vecchio
Italy
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
1



FKKA3 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=FKKA3&p=0)
Show (http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=FKKA3)
Atwell
Northumberland, England
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
1



4BCTS (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=4BCTS&p=0)

Bernard
Ireland
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
1



7JAQZ (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=7JAQZ&p=0)

Bauer
Unknown
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
1



7MYJH (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=7MYJH&p=0)

Riva
Cagliari, Italy
Unknown
Other - SMGF
12
2



7S3PX (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=7S3PX&p=0)

Bulgakov
Mordvinien, Russia
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



7W8GR (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=7W8GR&p=0)

Martin
Unknown
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2



84P6X (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=84P6X&p=0)

Pivovitz
Tykocin, Poland
T1*
Family Tree DNA
12
2



85S98 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=85S98&p=0)

Knox
Strabane, Northern Ireland
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



8P6P5 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=8P6P5&p=0)

Groen
Netherlands
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2



8TTV3 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=8TTV3&p=0)

McKinley
Unknown
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2



9FQV7 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=9FQV7&p=0)

Tulupov
Kursk region, Russia
T1*
Family Tree DNA
12
2



9U5RZ (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=9U5RZ&p=0)

Luddington
New York, USA
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2



9Z3Q4 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=9Z3Q4&p=0)

Knox
Pitt County, North Carolina, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



B7EPU (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=B7EPU&p=0)
Show (http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=B7EPU)
Ahmann
Lienen, Preußen/Prussia, Germany
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



BMV54 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=BMV54&p=0)

Epstein
Bobruisk, Belarus
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



C2URV (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=C2URV&p=0)

Vavilov
Morshansk, Russia
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



4J56P (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=4J56P&p=0)

Anonymous Brazilian
Brazil
T1b*
Other - SMGF
12
2



5MVDN (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=5MVDN&p=0)

Hill
Darlington, South Carolina, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



75W9X (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=75W9X&p=0)

Hill
Tennessee, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



27V79 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=27V79&p=0)

Fakes
Unknown
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



2WQH4 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=2WQH4&p=0)

Hill
Tennessee, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



3FURP (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=3FURP&p=0)

Lazar
Unknown
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2



FMW5U (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=FMW5U&p=0)
Show (http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=FMW5U)
Blarer C/o Phytax Gmbh
St. Gallen, Switzerland
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



FZ3K4 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=FZ3K4&p=0)

Dean
Unknown
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2



G8NSN (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=G8NSN&p=0)

Guerra
Ecuador
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2



GFXYD (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=GFXYD&p=0)

Cleveland, Cleaveland
Unknown
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2



GNY7X (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=GNY7X&p=0)

Hohenfeld
Tolkmicko, Poland
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



GH8YR (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=GH8YR&p=0)

Atwell
Virginia, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



DFEA3 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=DFEA3&p=0)
Show (http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=DFEA3)
Liss
Kartuz Bereza, Belarus
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



DG4TT (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=DG4TT&p=0)

Milligan
North Carolina, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



HVVYW (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=HVVYW&p=0)

Madrigal
madrid, Spain
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



JRWTZ (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=JRWTZ&p=0)

Lippi
Arezzo, Italy
Unknown
Other - SMGF
12
2



K3JXB (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=K3JXB&p=0)

Carson
Unknown
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



nrwwc (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=nrwwc&p=0)

Mason
West Palm Beach Florida, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



NUUFC (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=NUUFC&p=0)

Espinoza
Callao, Peru
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



P9K39 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=P9K39&p=0)

Murphy
Unknown
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2



PC6W3 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=PC6W3&p=0)

Velasco
Puerto Rico
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



PTD7V (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=PTD7V&p=0)

Carver
Krzepice, Poland
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2



T8WMY (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=T8WMY&p=0)

Russo
Camposano, Province of Naples, Italy
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



SJ4CJ (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=SJ4CJ&p=0)
Show (http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=SJ4CJ)
Hill
Unknown
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2



SYJCU (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=SYJCU&p=0)

Fauth
Rastatt, Alsace/Elsaß, Germany
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2



R3MRH (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=R3MRH&p=0)

Black
Ireland
Unknown
Genographic Project
12
2



RK58S (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=RK58S&p=0)

Hill
Packsville (Paxville), USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



YUQVH (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=YUQVH&p=0)

Teaford
Nancy, Alsace-Lorraine/Elsass-Lothringen, France
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



XYSQ3 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=XYSQ3&p=0)

Alvarado
Spain
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



Y4B44 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=Y4B44&p=0)

Mitchell
North Carolina, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



WAERQ (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=WAERQ&p=0)

Owens
Henry County, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2



WJRFG (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=X86AQ&viewuid=WJRFG&p=0)

Pivovitz
Tykocin, Poland
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2







Can you assist me in understanding these? I only showed up to the 2 steps because the list was extremely​ long

I suggest you do what I did, join this site below, its free ( unless you want to go to extreme searches ), it only covers family trees ( not genetics), but it will lead to genetics via other sites IF you establish your surnames
http://en.geneanet.org/

I joined, 6 months ago, I got fortnightly emails to see If I match surnames which where on my tree and also in others trees and have just satrted matching people who are in my tree with the same people who are on genetic sites

just got this about a month ago (see below) the gaspar guy is my line

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/gaspar_zps84033dec.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/gaspar_zps84033dec.jpg.html)

follow what I did , it will remove the clutter of all these names so you may focus on your true line.

BTW on your list
Russo is a Greek jew from the aegean islands
Lippi and Carson are from Lombardia
Hohenfeld is from old east-prussia
Hill is scottish , settled in southCarolina about 1700

I do not know the rest apart from knox and Mason

Sile
12-07-14, 00:41
The name "Rauch" may have several etymological origins:


Rauch = smoke, fume, indicating a profession that is associated with producing fume, e.g. metallurgy.
from "rau" = raw, rough. Thought to have designated people with "raw", i.e. scrubby appearance, or with rough manners.
possible Germanisation of ital. roca, fr. roche (rock), etc.

Here is the name distribution map according to German telephone register entries:

6447
Source: http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/Hauptseite (a very useful site if you want to research on German genealogy, and can comprehend a bit of German).

Don't know if it really helps, but I thought I post it anyway, if only as food for thought.

Do you know where the german name SCHALES comes from?

Sile
12-07-14, 00:47
It's been a while since I last posted here but I have recently found out some interesting information.

I found out that my father's Y-STRs were tested and using the values for his 12 Y-STRs, I inputted them into Ysearch. I did not get back any 0 step matches or even 1 step matches. The closest genetic matches I got were two men: one with the surname Foster (earliest paternal ancestor from Germany) and the other Atwell (earliest paternal ancestor from Northumberland, England). They were 2 steps away from me, which FTDNA and Ysearch denote as "Probably Not Related." They go on to say that "you are unlikely to share a common male ancestor within the genealogical time frame." So does that mean we share a common male ancestor, just really long ago?

Using the patterns seen in between the generations to the MRCA for 25 and 37 STRs, I calculated that there is a 95% probability that I share a common male ancestor with them some 66 generations ago. I am not sure if the math of the whole system was predictable enough for me to go on to do that but I did it anyways. Afterwards, I then predicted that since the average age men have had children is roughly 20-25 years, that 66 generations ago is between 1,320 to 1,650 years ago (or 364-694 CE). I cannot accurately interpret what this means, for I have a tendency to go down a slippery slope of assumptions.

Also, the next closest matches (3 steps) were 5 individuals: 4 from the US (Frush, Atwell, Curtiss, Owens) and 1 German (Frush).

Furthermore, the individuals that have tested CTS8862+ from FTDNA and CTS11984+ were all 5-6 steps away from me (Pretotto, Knox, and Espinoza).


We have now been placed together in ftdna T project.............can you confirm further back for your family line?

other CTS8862 are now Da Lessio ( 15 generic distance from me ), Schales ( ysearch 4MNH3, 1 GD from me ) ,

I also think we have a very good match with the swiss person ( ysearch 7JAQZ, 2 GD from me) from the 13th century, and also the slovene, Mozenic , 2 GD from me ( mozen means coins ( of various values) in venetian ), but I doubt he will go for a further test beyond 12 marker

Huracan
12-07-14, 04:17
I just saw! How intriguing! We're exact matches! That was with just 12 Y-STRs, as my Y-DNA 37 has yet to come in.

And unfortunately, no we still cannot go further back then Cuba with our paternal line :(

We've been placed together in the Gamma 1-X T-CTS8862 Unmatched on the Haplogroup T Project STR Results page. I have to continue research and will get back to with you.

Sile
12-07-14, 05:24
I just saw! How intriguing! We're exact matches! That was with just 12 Y-STRs, as my Y-DNA 37 has yet to come in.

And unfortunately, no we still cannot go further back then Cuba with our paternal line :(

We've been placed together in the Gamma 1-X T-CTS8862 Unmatched on the Haplogroup T Project STR Results page. I have to continue research and will get back to with you.

found this line from Lombardy Italy...........they sent a family line to the greek islands held by Italy after the 1911-1912 Turco-italian war.
Do you see any in regards to matches
FONDRA (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;m=N;v=FONDRA;t=A)



Display by:
http://gw.geneanet.org/images/picto_branch.png
line (5)
http://gw.geneanet.org/images/picto_alphabetic_order.png
alphabetical order (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;m=N;o=i;v=FONDRA;t=N)



1. (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;m=N;v=fondra;br=1)o Alfonso (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=alfonso;n=fondra)2.
(http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;m=N;v=fondra;br=2)o Eugénia (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=eugenia;n=fondra;oc=1) & Mario Pierre Isidore SUMMA (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=mario+pierre+isidore;n=summa) 1910-19733.
(http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;m=N;v=fondra;br=3)o Giovanna (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=giovanna;n=fondra)4. (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;m=N;v=fondra;br=4)
o (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;v=FONDRA;m=N;u=6142#i6142)Innocen zo (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=innocenzo;n=fondra) & Teresa VENINI (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=teresa;n=venini)
o (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;v=FONDRA;m=N;u=11601#i11601)Ferdi nando (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=ferdinando;n=fondra) ca 1826-1888 & ? ? (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;i=56227)
o Alfredo (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=alfredo;n=fondra) 1866-1895
o (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;v=FONDRA;m=N;u=2433#i2433)Giovann i (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=giovanni;n=fondra)1829-1908 & Luisa Ou Luigia BORETTI (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=luisa+ou+luigia;n=boretti) 1845-1923
o Enrico (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=enrico;n=fondra) 1864-
o (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;v=FONDRA;m=N;u=11594#i11594)Joach im (Giovacchino) (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=joachim+giovacchino;n=fondra) 1865-1926 & Argyro CARIDHIA (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=argyro;n=caridhia)
o Giovanni (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=giovanni;n=fondra;oc=2)1894-1894
oLuisa (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=luisa;n=fondra) 1895-1921
o Elfrida Anna (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=elfrida+anna;n=fondra) 1896- &1922 Antonio PREDONZAN (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=antonio;n=predonzan) ...
o Elena Anna Cristina (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=elena+anna+cristina;n=fondra) 1897-1897
o (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;v=FONDRA;m=N;u=11597#i11597)Artur o (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=arturo;n=fondra) 1898-1971 &1924 Giovanna PREDONZAN (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=giovanna;n=predonzan)
oElvira Luisa (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=elvira+luisa;n=fondra)
o (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;v=FONDRA;m=N;u=11595#i11595)Joach im (Giovacchino) 1865-1926 &1918 Maria PIROLOVOS (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=maria;n=pirolovos)
o Ettore (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=ettore;n=fondra)1903-1924
oEugenia (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=eugenia;n=fondra)1905- &1925 Guy FIOROVICH (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=guy;n=fiorovich)
oGiovanni (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=giovanni;n=fondra;oc=1)1908- &1935 Maria FRAGIACOMO (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=maria;n=fragiacomo)
o Adolfo (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=adolfo;n=fondra) 1867-1924 &1893 Teresa FILINESI (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=teresa;n=filinesi) 1872- 5. (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;m=N;v=fondra;br=5)
o Teresa


(http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=teresa;n=fondra)in cuba
this is the oldest line 1847
(http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=teresa;n=fondra)



genovapete1969 (http://gw.geneanet.org/genovapete1969?lang=en&v=FUNDORA&m=N)
1
FUNDORA


1847 - 1847
San Antonio de Los Banos
Cuba

o Rosario



owner of line is Peter Genova .....city is San Antonio de Los Banos

red print is Fundora or Fondra person
(http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=teresa;n=fondra)

Sile
12-07-14, 07:50
99% of all Fondera are french from:

http://static.geneanet.org/arbre/img/man.png Joan (http://gw.geneanet.org/jgazeilles3?lang=en;pz=jacques;nz=gazeilles;ocz=0; m=P;v=joan) FONDERA (http://gw.geneanet.org/jgazeilles3?lang=en;pz=jacques;nz=gazeilles;ocz=0; m=N;v=fondera) Titles: pagès (http://gw.geneanet.org/jgazeilles3?lang=en;pz=jacques;nz=gazeilles;ocz=0; m=TT;sm=S;t=pag%C3%A8s;p=)



Born about 1600 - Millas,66170,Pyrénées-Orientales,Languedoc-Roussillon,FRANCE
Deceased

Spouses and children

Married to Maria BURCH (http://gw.geneanet.org/jgazeilles3?lang=en;pz=jacques;nz=gazeilles;ocz=0; p=maria;n=burch) with

http://gw.geneanet.org/images/male.png Joseph FONDERA (http://gw.geneanet.org/jgazeilles3?lang=en;pz=jacques;nz=gazeilles;ocz=0; p=joseph;n=fondera) ca 1630-/1668
http://gw.geneanet.org/images/female.png Maria FONDERA (http://gw.geneanet.org/jgazeilles3?lang=en;pz=jacques;nz=gazeilles;ocz=0; p=maria;n=fondera) ca 1633-








about 1600 :
Birth - Millas,66170,Pyrénées-Orientales,Languedoc-Roussillon,FRANCE



20 February 1657 :
Will - Millas,66170,Pyrénées-Orientales,Languedoc-Roussillon,FRANCE
Notaire : Montbolo Miquel

son fils Joseph, chirurgien (qui ne réapparait plus ensuite), ses filles Monserrada, Géronima, Anna (qui n'apparaît plus dans les testaments suivants) et Maria épouse Burch (1er mariage)

Sources: relevés de l'association - A.C.G. - Other - moi-même - Other


23 December 1668 :
Will - Millas,66170,Pyrénées-Orientales,Languedoc-Roussillon,FRANCE
Notaire : Montbolo Miquel

Ce testament sera remplacé par celui de 1676. Il énonce le nom des 2 premières épouses et par contre attribue à la seconde Boher, Monserrada (Maria) 3 enfants Isabel, Thérèse et Jaume, qui vont ensuite être replacée sous la 3eme épouse Joana."

Sources: relevés de l'association - A.C.G. - Other - moi-même - Other


8 September 1676 :
Will - Millas,66170,Pyrénées-Orientales,Languedoc-Roussillon,FRANCE
notaire : Amill Hieronim
nouveau testament : Joana est sa 3eme épouse et la mère de ses enfants Thérèse, Isabel épouse Cubri, Jaume 14 ans, Géronima épouse de Sylvestre Palegri. (Il y a un hiatus avec le testament de 1668 où Thérèse, Isabel et Jaume sont indiqués enfants de Maria Boher 2eme épouse). Lors des mariages de ces enfants, leurs mères est bien Joana.
Sa 1ere épouse Maria (Burch) était la mère de Maria épouse de Côme Burch, sa seconde épouse Maria ? était la mère de Monserrada épouse de Miquel BOHER

Huracan
13-07-14, 00:55
found this line from Lombardy Italy...........they sent a family line to the greek islands held by Italy after the 1911-1912 Turco-italian war.
Do you see any in regards to matches
FONDRA (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;m=N;v=FONDRA;t=A)



Display by:
http://gw.geneanet.org/images/picto_branch.png
line (5)
http://gw.geneanet.org/images/picto_alphabetic_order.png
alphabetical order (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;m=N;o=i;v=FONDRA;t=N)



1. (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;m=N;v=fondra;br=1)o Alfonso (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=alfonso;n=fondra)2.
(http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;m=N;v=fondra;br=2)o Eugénia (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=eugenia;n=fondra;oc=1) & Mario Pierre Isidore SUMMA (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=mario+pierre+isidore;n=summa) 1910-19733.
(http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;m=N;v=fondra;br=3)o Giovanna (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=giovanna;n=fondra)4. (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;m=N;v=fondra;br=4)
o (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;v=FONDRA;m=N;u=6142#i6142)Innocen zo (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=innocenzo;n=fondra) & Teresa VENINI (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=teresa;n=venini)
o (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;v=FONDRA;m=N;u=11601#i11601)Ferdi nando (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=ferdinando;n=fondra) ca 1826-1888 & ? ? (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;i=56227)
o Alfredo (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=alfredo;n=fondra) 1866-1895
o (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;v=FONDRA;m=N;u=2433#i2433)Giovann i (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=giovanni;n=fondra)1829-1908 & Luisa Ou Luigia BORETTI (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=luisa+ou+luigia;n=boretti) 1845-1923
o Enrico (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=enrico;n=fondra) 1864-
o (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;v=FONDRA;m=N;u=11594#i11594)Joach im (Giovacchino) (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=joachim+giovacchino;n=fondra) 1865-1926 & Argyro CARIDHIA (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=argyro;n=caridhia)
o Giovanni (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=giovanni;n=fondra;oc=2)1894-1894
oLuisa (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=luisa;n=fondra) 1895-1921
o Elfrida Anna (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=elfrida+anna;n=fondra) 1896- &1922 Antonio PREDONZAN (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=antonio;n=predonzan) ...
o Elena Anna Cristina (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=elena+anna+cristina;n=fondra) 1897-1897
o (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;v=FONDRA;m=N;u=11597#i11597)Artur o (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=arturo;n=fondra) 1898-1971 &1924 Giovanna PREDONZAN (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=giovanna;n=predonzan)
oElvira Luisa (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=elvira+luisa;n=fondra)
o (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;v=FONDRA;m=N;u=11595#i11595)Joach im (Giovacchino) 1865-1926 &1918 Maria PIROLOVOS (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=maria;n=pirolovos)
o Ettore (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=ettore;n=fondra)1903-1924
oEugenia (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=eugenia;n=fondra)1905- &1925 Guy FIOROVICH (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=guy;n=fiorovich)
oGiovanni (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=giovanni;n=fondra;oc=1)1908- &1935 Maria FRAGIACOMO (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=maria;n=fragiacomo)
o Adolfo (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=adolfo;n=fondra) 1867-1924 &1893 Teresa FILINESI (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=teresa;n=filinesi) 1872- 5. (http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;m=N;v=fondra;br=5)
o Teresa


(http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=teresa;n=fondra)in cuba
this is the oldest line 1847
(http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=teresa;n=fondra)



genovapete1969 (http://gw.geneanet.org/genovapete1969?lang=en&v=FUNDORA&m=N)
1
FUNDORA


1847 - 1847
San Antonio de Los Banos
Cuba

o Rosario


owner of line is Peter Genova .....city is San Antonio de Los Banos

red print is Fundora or Fondra person
(http://gw.geneanet.org/marmara2?lang=en;p=teresa;n=fondra)

Unfortunately no I do not see any familiar people or anyone possibly related to me in that Fondra family. Remember, my earliest ancestor that we know was born around 1809 in San Antonio de Rio Blanco del Norte, La Habana, Cuba.

I contacted Peter not too long ago and his Fundora ancestor is his great-great-great grandmother named Rosario Fundora. Her son, his great-great-grandfather, was born in San Antonio de los Baños in 1847. Comparing temporal data, we may be distantly related. The earliest account of Fundora in Cuba comes from 1773, when Antonio Fundora (b. 1759) enlisted in the Cuban-Spanish Army. He fought against the British in the Anglo-Spanish War in Louisiana and Florida, part of the American Revolutionary War. I also recently found a Santiago Jose Fundora y Cabrera baptized in Bejucal, La Habana from 1770-1780 (his record was found in a general church record entry).

These two sites provide information regarding Fundora:
http://www.xn--apellidosespaa-2nb.com/apellido/fundora.html -> this one says that Fundora has a Spanish heraldic shield and is common in the Canary Islands
http://apellido.enfemenino.com/w/apellidos/apellido-fundora-leon.html -> this one says that there are between 337-358 people in Barcelona Province with the surname Fundora Leon.

Huracan
13-07-14, 01:50
Fondera is a surname that appears in Pyrenees-Orientales, France since the late 1500s and early 1600s. Fundera, its variant, also appears in the same areas. Fondora, another variant, if I remember correctly also goes back to the same time period and area (as per World Vital Records). Most of this information I got from FamilySearch.org. It also appears in records from Gerona since the mid-1600s and into the 1700s. In Barcelona province, it continues to the modern-day.

Thus, a Catalan-French origin seems to be the best option for the origin for Fundora, especially since Fundora is also found in a lot of Latin American countries (i.e. Mexico, Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, Panama, Ecuador, Chile, and Brazil), being distributed by Catalan and Spaniard settlers in the New World.

Sile
13-07-14, 03:19
Unfortunately no I do not see any familiar people or anyone possibly related to me in that Fondra family. Remember, my earliest ancestor that we know was born around 1809 in San Antonio de Rio Blanco del Norte, La Habana, Cuba.

I contacted Peter not too long ago and his Fundora ancestor is his great-great-great grandmother named Rosario Fundora. Her son, his great-great-grandfather, was born in San Antonio de los Baños in 1847. Comparing temporal data, we may be distantly related. The earliest account of Fundora in Cuba comes from 1773, when Antonio Fundora (b. 1759) enlisted in the Cuban-Spanish Army. He fought against the British in the Anglo-Spanish War in Louisiana and Florida, part of the American Revolutionary War. I also recently found a Santiago Jose Fundora y Cabrera baptized in Bejucal, La Habana from 1770-1780 (his record was found in a general church record entry).

These two sites provide information regarding Fundora:
http://www.xn--apellidosespaa-2nb.com/apellido/fundora.html -> this one says that Fundora has a Spanish heraldic shield and is common in the Canary Islands
http://apellido.enfemenino.com/w/apellidos/apellido-fundora-leon.html -> this one says that there are between 337-358 people in Barcelona Province with the surname Fundora Leon.

thanks

The year 1759 for Antonio makes sense in that the story is no catalan or basque went to the new world via spanish ships due to some type of legality/rules. this was changed in ~1720

whats your plan?

I have registry records from 1689 to now for me..........plus another document from Rovereto from 1610 .............I just need to trace this Gaspar guy from 1545 , again in Val di Cembra Trentino Italy...............we might only be linked via a paternal marriage of sisters long long time ago...or ...?

Huracan
13-07-14, 03:24
Also @Sile, I wish to refresh myself on the possible origins for L131, L446, CTS11984, and CTS8862. I remember you saying and reading elsewhere that M272 (our line) migrated north of the Caspian and it was in the northern Caucasus (Pontic-Caspian steppe) that L131 appeared. Despite the predominant L446 presence in Europe, I see on Family Tree DNA that there are lots of L446+ individuals in Saudi Arabia, meaning that L446 originated in Eurasia, likely the same place as L131. Now CTS11984 and CTS8862 both seem to be only found in the European but could have either appeared also in the north Caucasus or in Europe. Although the age for the T subclades goes back to the Neolithic, I cannot find any source of Neolithic culture/peoples spreading from the Caucasus, into north of the Black Sea, and entering Europe. I may be wrong, but is there a possibility that the northern L131, L446, CTS11984, and CTS8862 lineages were dispersed by the Indo-Europeans?

I know the Indo-Europeans were predominantly haplogroup R (R1a + R1b) but the compelling hypotheses for the origins of the Indo-Europeans seem to point to a Pontic-Caspian steppe/north Caucasus area of origin, the same as L131. Also, the presence of L446, CTS11984, and CTS8862 in the British Isles, which have some of the least Neolithic influence (typical of Northern Europe), can be explained by an introduction via the Celts (supported by the presence of these lineages in Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and England). Even the presence of L446 sister clade P322/P328 in Scandinavia, Shetland, and Orkney Islands can be attributed to an Indo-European introduction, namely the Germanic peoples (Norse, Vikings, etc.). And when you said that the T-project managers told you that your line came into the Venice area when the Italics came in via the eastern Alpine passes, it appears to support these hypotheses. And when they said that your line also came from the Black Sea area, it also coincides with an Indo-European introduction.
Also, even Maciamo suggested that L131 was absorbed by the Indo-Europeans as they spread eastward into Central Asia, owing to its presence in Xinjiang (extreme western China, next to Kazakhstan).

Therefore, what I see is that L131 and it's European oriented lineages originated in the Pontic-Caspian steppe north of the Caucasus. Later or around the same time, they were absorbed and assimilated into the Proto-Indo-European substrate and then migrated along with the Indo-Europeans in their successful expansions into Europe.

Huracan
13-07-14, 03:28
Since we share a genetic distance of 0, but have a different surname (and largely different national ancestries), we likely share a common male ancestor that lived centuries to thousands of years ago.

Sile
13-07-14, 04:02
Also @Sile, I wish to refresh myself on the possible origins for L131, L446, CTS11984, and CTS8862. I remember you saying and reading elsewhere that M272 (our line) migrated north of the Caspian and it was in the northern Caucasus (Pontic-Caspian steppe) that L131 appeared. Despite the predominant L446 presence in Europe, I see on Family Tree DNA that there are lots of L446+ individuals in Saudi Arabia, meaning that L446 originated in Eurasia, likely the same place as L131. Now CTS11984 and CTS8862 both seem to be only found in the European but could have either appeared also in the north Caucasus or in Europe. Although the age for the T subclades goes back to the Neolithic, I cannot find any source of Neolithic culture/peoples spreading from the Caucasus, into north of the Black Sea, and entering Europe. I may be wrong, but is there a possibility that the northern L131, L446, CTS11984, and CTS8862 lineages were dispersed by the Indo-Europeans?

I know the Indo-Europeans were predominantly haplogroup R (R1a + R1b) but the compelling hypotheses for the origins of the Indo-Europeans seem to point to a Pontic-Caspian steppe/north Caucasus area of origin, the same as L131. Also, the presence of L446, CTS11984, and CTS8862 in the British Isles, which have some of the least Neolithic influence (typical of Northern Europe), can be explained by an introduction via the Celts (supported by the presence of these lineages in Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and England). Even the presence of L446 sister clade P322/P328 in Scandinavia, Shetland, and Orkney Islands can be attributed to an Indo-European introduction, namely the Germanic peoples (Norse, Vikings, etc.). And when you said that the T-project managers told you that your line came into the Venice area when the Italics came in via the eastern Alpine passes, it appears to support these hypotheses. And when they said that your line also came from the Black Sea area, it also coincides with an Indo-European introduction.
Also, even Maciamo suggested that L131 was absorbed by the Indo-Europeans as they spread eastward into Central Asia, owing to its presence in Xinjiang (extreme western China, next to Kazakhstan).

Therefore, what I see is that L131 and it's European oriented lineages originated in the Pontic-Caspian steppe north of the Caucasus. Later or around the same time, they were absorbed and assimilated into the Proto-Indo-European substrate and then migrated along with the Indo-Europeans in their successful expansions into Europe.

The predominate T areas in the middle-east areas today are.......assyrians 16%, armenians 7%, Azeri 9%, lezkins 7%, dagestan 6%, there are far less % in saudi arabia ( except the "saudi nobility" ) ......I was once told the saudi nobility cam south from Persia.

The pontic-caspian area includes the
this is what Maciano correctly states....T1a2 has been found as far east as the Volga-Ural region of Russia and Xinjiang in north-west China. This branch probably penetrated into the Pontic-Caspian Steppe during the Neolithic (perhaps alongside G2a3b1 and J2b2) ......T1a2 is L131 line

You also need to remember that T along with L, G and J broke off early from its parent K before K ever thought about forming P which later formed the R group. these "west-asian" TLGJ, could have been the first in europe ...the scouts/hunter gathers/ herders

R dominated europe because they brought along "dynastic" system of concubines , something the hunter gather herders did not have


In regards to 1 project manager states ............"i thought you had slavic, you do not, I thought you had iberic or balkan, you don't ., no african or ashkenazi ?!
the other states alpine ....either east or west alpine

Sile
13-07-14, 04:03
Since we share a genetic distance of 0, but have a different surname (and largely different national ancestries), we likely share a common male ancestor that lived centuries to thousands of years ago.

I was told 0 means not older than 800 years

Huracan
15-07-14, 16:19
Yes, I may have jumped the gun regarding the distribution of T in Europe, especially T-L131. An old Neolithic origin and distribution is the more likely situation.

Now, I updated to 37 Y-STRs and we are no longer closely related at all. The closest match I have now is a man from the Azores, with surname Lemas, who is a genetic distance of 4 from me. Otherwise, I have no close matches in any respect. The 25 Y-STRs showed that I was a distance of 1 from Lemas and several Frush/Froshour (German/German-Americans); no individuals with a distance of 0.

Sile
17-07-14, 20:21
Yes, I may have jumped the gun regarding the distribution of T in Europe, especially T-L131. An old Neolithic origin and distribution is the more likely situation.

Now, I updated to 37 Y-STRs and we are no longer closely related at all. The closest match I have now is a man from the Azores, with surname Lemas, who is a genetic distance of 4 from me. Otherwise, I have no close matches in any respect. The 25 Y-STRs showed that I was a distance of 1 from Lemas and several Frush/Froshour (German/German-Americans); no individuals with a distance of 0.

in the project site where we sit , you need to ignore the fast mutating red DYS ones and check the others , ...the darker the blue the slower the mutation change.

we miss in DYS447..........you are like 15% of the world, I am 2% of the world

we then have 5 misses in 37 markers , so we fit here



Re: Y Chromosome Marker Details: DYS 447








As an administrator ( not me ) with a study with persons who have tested with Family Tree, DNA Heritage, Ancesrty.com and SMFG, we use the following simple guidelines to apply to all:

37 Marker level:
. A 37/37 match: Very Tightly Related.
. A 36/37 match: Tightly Related. Family Tree states that very few people achieve this close of a match.
. A 35/37 or 34/37 match: Related.
. A 33/37 or 32/37 match: Marginal.
. A 31/37 match and beyond: You are not related and the odds are that you have not shared a common male ancestor with anyone in this group within thousands of years.


we are in the marginal group

Sile
17-07-14, 20:30
KF

do you match any of mine below, some are in ysearch search, most are not. these are surnames and origins ( i have left you out , it did have you as cuba, but in haplo-origins ( ydna ftdna) you are now spain )

Da Lessio, north italy
Fava, North italy
Mozentic, Slovenia .............stated venetian from name Mozen ( IMO , could be like the austrian below)
Schales, South Germany
Molzen, Austria
Toigo, North Italy
Cemin, North Italy
Viselli, central Italy
Rossi, North Italy
Higuera, Basque
and Benedetto, south Italy

plus 7 from the british isles ( mostly irish and welsh )

Huracan
18-07-14, 00:19
KF

do you match any of mine below, some are in ysearch search, most are not. these are surnames and origins ( i have left you out , it did have you as cuba, but in haplo-origins ( ydna ftdna) you are now spain )

Da Lessio, north italy
Fava, North italy
Mozentic, Slovenia .............stated venetian from name Mozen ( IMO , could be like the austrian below)
Schales, South Germany
Molzen, Austria
Toigo, North Italy
Cemin, North Italy
Viselli, central Italy
Rossi, North Italy
Higuera, Basque
and Benedetto, south Italy

plus 7 from the british isles ( mostly irish and welsh )


I match the following from your list:

12 Y-STRs:
Mozetič (0)
Schales (0) [FTDNA]
Benedetto (0)
Viselli (1)
Higuera (1)
Rossi (1) [FTDNA]
Rossi (6) [Ysearch]
Schales (6) [Ysearch]

25 Y-STRs:
Schales (6) [Ysearch]
Rossi (6) [Ysearch]

37 Y-STRs:
Schales (6) [Ysearch]

Huracan
18-07-14, 00:27
in the project site where we sit , you need to ignore the fast mutating red DYS ones and check the others , ...the darker the blue the slower the mutation change.

we miss in DYS447..........you are like 15% of the world, I am 2% of the world

we then have 5 misses in 37 markers , so we fit here



Re: Y Chromosome Marker Details: DYS 447








As an administrator ( not me ) with a study with persons who have tested with Family Tree, DNA Heritage, Ancesrty.com and SMFG, we use the following simple guidelines to apply to all:

37 Marker level:
. A 37/37 match: Very Tightly Related.
. A 36/37 match: Tightly Related. Family Tree states that very few people achieve this close of a match.
. A 35/37 or 34/37 match: Related.
. A 33/37 or 32/37 match: Marginal.
. A 31/37 match and beyond: You are not related and the odds are that you have not shared a common male ancestor with anyone in this group within thousands of years.


we are in the marginal group

Oh this is interesting... where is the site/source where you got this from?

Is a marginal relation noteworthy?

I have to review the slower mutating STRs, especially in regards to my match on FTDNA that was a distance of 4 from me (Lemas).

Huracan
18-07-14, 00:31
FTDNA is listing me as Spain? So when you click on haplo-origins it actually shows me as Spain, despite the farthest my documented line goes back is in Cuba. I know it's obvious it could have come from Spain but I didn't confirm or state that.

Sile
23-07-14, 09:55
FTDNA is listing me as Spain? So when you click on haplo-origins it actually shows me as Spain, despite the farthest my documented line goes back is in Cuba. I know it's obvious it could have come from Spain but I didn't confirm or state that.

haplogroup origins cannot give me your cuba, ......it will give me Spain along with my other Italy and ireland.

Isogg T is updated...........looks like we will go back under L446

Huracan
23-07-14, 16:23
Oh ok.

And where is this update? I can't find any updated info on the ISOGG site or on FTDNA

Huracan
23-07-14, 21:10
Also, Sile, have you found out anymore people who were L446+, CTS11984+, or CTS8862+? and where they were from? Because I think as more people get tested, we see a wider range of where L446 and its subclades are found and this will help genealogical purposes too. As of now, I know L446 and its subclades are found in the British Isles, France, the Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Scandinavia, and Poland. One other CTS11984+ individual from Nat Geno has the surname Espinoza, whose paternal family came from Spain to Peru - this is only other individual of Spanish descent that I know of that has CTS11984 or L446, other than myself.

Sile
23-07-14, 21:39
Also, Sile, have you found out anymore people who were L446+, CTS11984+, or CTS8862+? and where they were from? Because I think as more people get tested, we see a wider range of where L446 and its subclades are found and this will help genealogical purposes too. As of now, I know L446 and its subclades are found in the British Isles, France, the Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Scandinavia, and Poland. One other CTS11984+ individual from Nat Geno has the surname Espinoza, whose paternal family came from Spain to Peru - this is only other individual of Spanish descent that I know of that has CTS11984 or L446, other than myself.

as stated in isogg T - cts8862 and cts11984 will be replaced by L446 .............check other CTS which sit with L446 now

L446 is eastern alps and britain and all in between

Sile
26-07-14, 22:01
Table S7. Haplogroup assignations based on Y-Chromosome markers.




Ancestry




Y-Chromosome



Haplogroups




Absolute Frequency




Relative Frequency






African


BT


68




17.7






Eurasian


F


96




25.0




K


4




1.0




R1a1


4




1.0




R1b1a2


169




44.0




T1a


1




0.3




R1b1b2a1


40




10.4






Native American


Q1a2a1a1


2




0.5





http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1004488#pgen.1 004488-Brin1

KF...that T1 person must be your family!

Sile
27-07-14, 00:48
T1a2 CTS2157, L131
• • • • T1a2* -
• • • • T1a2a P322, P328
• • • • T1a2b CTS11796, CTS12108, L446
• • • T1a3 L1255



Moved CTS2157, CTS11796, CTS12108 from Investigation to tree on 21 July 2014.
Added CTS1774, CTS2214, CTS3767, CTS6280, CTS8862, CTS9984, CTS11984 to Investigation on 21 July 2014.


red text = isogg T today

so, CTS8862 and CTS11984 are under investigation and likely outcome is they will be downstream from L446......

if you have CTS11796, CTS12108 as positive and have L490 , you could be from caucasus instead of levant

Note: M70 is removed as being the originator of T1 , but is originator of T1a

T1 is now under L206 or M193


so for me
T by M272
T1 by M193
T1a by M70
T1a2 by L131
T1a2b by L446

Huracan
27-07-14, 04:24
Table S7. Haplogroup assignations based on Y-Chromosome markers.




Ancestry




Y-Chromosome



Haplogroups




Absolute Frequency




Relative Frequency






African


BT


68




17.7






Eurasian


F


96




25.0




K


4




1.0




R1a1


4




1.0




R1b1a2


169




44.0




T1a


1




0.3




R1b1b2a1


40




10.4






Native American


Q1a2a1a1


2




0.5





http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1004488#pgen.1 004488-Brin1

KF...that T1 person must be your family!

I think it is unlikely that they are my family. There is a certain percentage of T individuals in Spain as well as in the Spanish Americas, that T1a individual is probably just one of many. Even if they were T1a2b, it would be still unlikely that they are my family (related to me paternally that is). If I knew their surname, then I could corroborate.
I do note, however, that T is low in Spain and even lower in Cuba. For sure, there are less than a dozen Fundoras from my line still in Cuba and possibly more but we do not have enough genealogical evidence to conclude anything.

Huracan
27-07-14, 04:29
T1a2 CTS2157, L131
• • • • T1a2* -
• • • • T1a2a P322, P328
• • • • T1a2b CTS11796, CTS12108, L446
• • • T1a3 L1255



Moved CTS2157, CTS11796, CTS12108 from Investigation to tree on 21 July 2014.
Added CTS1774, CTS2214, CTS3767, CTS6280, CTS8862, CTS9984, CTS11984 to Investigation on 21 July 2014.


red text = isogg T today

so, CTS8862 and CTS11984 are under investigation and likely outcome is they will be downstream from L446......

if you have CTS11796, CTS12108 as positive and have L490 , you could be from caucasus instead of levant

Note: M70 is removed as being the originator of T1 , but is originator of T1a

T1 is now under L206 or M193


so for me
T by M272
T1 by M193
T1a by M70
T1a2 by L131
T1a2b by L446

Oh this is interesting! I used MorleyDNA again to see where my tested SNPs fall under and I get this:

T by M272
T1 by L490
T1a by M70
T1a2 by L131 (also CTS11796 and CTS12108)
T1a2b by L446

Does this mean I am Caucasus instead of Levant, as you stated?

And this is what I see now on the ISOGG site:"CTS1774, CTS3767, CTS8862, CTS9984, CTS11984 are downstream of L446. Listed 21 July 2014" also that CTS11796 and CTS12108 are equivalent to L446

Sile
27-07-14, 05:52
Oh this is interesting! I used MorleyDNA again to see where my tested SNPs fall under and I get this:

T by M272
T1 by L490
T1a by M70
T1a2 by L131 (also CTS11796 and CTS12108)
T1a2b by L446

Does this mean I am Caucasus instead of Levant, as you stated?

And this is what I see now on the ISOGG site:"CTS1774, CTS3767, CTS8862, CTS9984, CTS11984 are downstream of L446. Listed 21 July 2014" also that CTS11796 and CTS12108 are equivalent to L446

I am truly unsure if you are caucasus...I am reading on texts for the DYS390 marker .........there is a lot of talk from many haplogroups regarding DYS390 as a geographical indicator

on Morley

morley has stopped work on MorleyDNA ( what you got is accurate) and is only doing clarifyDNA which is based on bigY
he said

The "Morley" tab you speak of gets inserted on your BigY results page by a third-party Chrome extension. I have no part in that extension, nor did I ever. I was not notified ahead of time that the extension would, for the purpose of BigY analysis, try to harness ytree.MorleyDNA.com's functionality.

The tool at ytree.MorleyDNA.com was built for Geno 2.0 data. The online predictor and its underlying dataset haven't been modified since July or August of 2013 -- before BigY's announcement. The output of the ytree.MorleyDNA.com tool is essentially static: the classifications and lists of unplaced SNPs will not change, even as new data becomes available. I don't have any enhancements scheduled for ytree.MorleyDNA.com, but the tool will remain online, primarily as a service to those who ordered Geno 2.0. www.clarifYDNA.com (http://www.clarifYDNA.com) is my current focus.

BigY data is more complicated to work with. And there are known basal discrepancies between the phylogeny implied by Geno 2.0 data (or, at least, FTDNA's Geno 2.0 calls), and the one implied by "next-gen" data. Using a Geno-tuned predictor on next-gen data can produce some strange results.

Sile
29-07-14, 20:42
@KF

Try the new Beta YHRD.org site , do the manual imput selection, select the middle option ( 17 STR marker) and place your heat map when you are finished in here.

YHRD.org is the most accurate Ydna test that is done..........they get 5 different samples from every individual tested and throw all out if 1 sample is corrupt.

below is my heat map for 16/17 exact markers ( red )...........blue indicates all other T people with 12 to 15 exact markers which match me.

I have only 1 person which is 17/17 with me ........from linz, Austria ...............I think it is my relative Carlo who left for salzburg in 1871.

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/newheatyhrd_zps1c67bae1.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/newheatyhrd_zps1c67bae1.jpg.html)

the only issue with YHRD is that they never reveal the owner that was tested.

BTW...I never tested in YHRD

Huracan
30-07-14, 00:37
I couldn't do the 17 markers because I only did 37 Y-STRs and not 67. Some of the ones included in the 17 marker option I hadn't tested for so it was impossible for me to do. Since FTDNA gave me 13-13-16 for DYS385a and b, I used the two situations (13, 13) and (13, 16).

Here is when I did 13 and 13 for the 10 marker option (SWGDAM):
6520
The 3 matches were: Oberöstereich (Austria), Ljubljana (Slovenia), and an Australian

Here is when I did 13 and 16:
6521
The 4 matches I got were: Prague, Albania (Tosk), Athens, and India

How did you find out how many markers they shared with you?? The larger the red glowing areas, the closer the relation correct? Then for the first map, the Austria one was slightly bigger than the Croatia one and the Australia one was really dim, while the second map its Greece and India, followed by Albania then Prague.

Huracan
30-07-14, 01:58
Also @Sile, my closest match for 37 Y-STRs is a man from the Azores of surname Lemas (Galician) who is 4 steps away. Recent research likely puts my paternal family in the Canary Islands in the early 1700s and my surname may now be Galician or Portuguese (from fundura "depth").

I was wondering once again (if I haven't asked before) how L446 could have been brought to Spain? (for I and Espinoza from Peru [CTS11984+] are the only of Spanish descent to be L446 that I have seen) You think it could have been brought by far-wandering Neolithic farmers from Central Europe (as L446's distribution seems to suggest a correlation with the Danubian culture) all the way to Iberia? Or maybe by the Celts as they moved from Central Europe into Iberia? Or even Roman settlers or slaves brought to Iberia?

The thing is that L446 is so uncommon beyond its distribution in the British Isles, France, Germany, Italy, and parts of Eastern Europe.

The closest matches I have at 25 Y-STRs were Germans of the same surname (Frush, Froshour) [1-2 steps, all 1 except one which was 2] and the Lemas individual [1 step].

By 100 BC, the Romans had conquered the majority of Iberia (especially the western Atlantic coast [Lusitania and Gallaecia]) and during this time or after, slaves from the Alps or north of the Alps could have been taken to this area and give rise to my paternal line. Or they could simply have been Roman settlers. Mind you, these are just suggestions and I may be going out on a limb here. I was leaning earlier to the Celtic idea but the Roman scenario seems more likely because even with 25 Y-STRs, these individuals show a high degree of relation, which hints at a recent common ancestor not too long ago (on the order of centuries or even a millennia).

Sile
30-07-14, 07:49
I couldn't do the 17 markers because I only did 37 Y-STRs and not 67. Some of the ones included in the 17 marker option I hadn't tested for so it was impossible for me to do. Since FTDNA gave me 13-13-16 for DYS385a and b, I used the two situations (13, 13) and (13, 16).

Here is when I did 13 and 13 for the 10 marker option (SWGDAM):
6520
The 3 matches were: Oberöstereich (Austria), Ljubljana (Slovenia), and an Australian

Here is when I did 13 and 16:
6521
The 4 matches I got were: Prague, Albania (Tosk), Athens, and India

How did you find out how many markers they shared with you?? The larger the red glowing areas, the closer the relation correct? Then for the first map, the Austria one was slightly bigger than the Croatia one and the Australia one was really dim, while the second map its Greece and India, followed by Albania then Prague.

read attachment as you tested with this SWGDAM

http://swgdam.org/SWGDAM_YSTR_Guidelines_APPROVED_01092014_v_0211201 4_FINAL.pdf

All I was told about the heat map variations , is that the hotter the heat map the more it reflects the most important STR ..................but I need to confirm this via other sources

Your DYS385 issue is in the attachment

Sile
30-07-14, 07:52
Also @Sile, my closest match for 37 Y-STRs is a man from the Azores of surname Lemas (Galician) who is 4 steps away. Recent research likely puts my paternal family in the Canary Islands in the early 1700s and my surname may now be Galician or Portuguese (from fundura "depth").

I was wondering once again (if I haven't asked before) how L446 could have been brought to Spain? (for I and Espinoza from Peru [CTS11984+] are the only of Spanish descent to be L446 that I have seen) You think it could have been brought by far-wandering Neolithic farmers from Central Europe (as L446's distribution seems to suggest a correlation with the Danubian culture) all the way to Iberia? Or maybe by the Celts as they moved from Central Europe into Iberia? Or even Roman settlers or slaves brought to Iberia?

The thing is that L446 is so uncommon beyond its distribution in the British Isles, France, Germany, Italy, and parts of Eastern Europe.

The closest matches I have at 25 Y-STRs were Germans of the same surname (Frush, Froshour) [1-2 steps, all 1 except one which was 2] and the Lemas individual [1 step].

By 100 BC, the Romans had conquered the majority of Iberia (especially the western Atlantic coast [Lusitania and Gallaecia]) and during this time or after, slaves from the Alps or north of the Alps could have been taken to this area and give rise to my paternal line. Or they could simply have been Roman settlers. Mind you, these are just suggestions and I may be going out on a limb here. I was leaning earlier to the Celtic idea but the Roman scenario seems more likely because even with 25 Y-STRs, these individuals show a high degree of relation, which hints at a recent common ancestor not too long ago (on the order of centuries or even a millennia).

The person named Silesian, post a trail of the Alans people from the caucasus ................I will see if I can find it .

Galicia does have a few L446 ( especially Cantalabria area) , but Galicia is very old celtic lands from migrating celts from Central Europe .............maybe Lebrok can help here of the Iberian posters

Sile
30-07-14, 08:44
@KF

YhRD

I did the 4th in line and had 1 match in Wels Austria

did the centre and had 2 matches, Wels Austria and Enego in Veneto Italy

did the 2nd and 1st ones and they where the same and had 3 matches , Wels Austria, Enego in Veneto Italy, and Rovte in Slovenia

apparantly I stuffed up how DYS385 should be imputed .....and also never found DYS635 anywhere in my markers

after fixing yesterday stuff up ...I moved from SouthEast European to an equal split of east European and west European ............this is confusing .............maybe they should have had a central European

Huracan
30-07-14, 16:09
The person named Silesian, post a trail of the Alans people from the caucasus ................I will see if I can find it .

Galicia does have a few L446 ( especially Cantalabria area) , but Galicia is very old celtic lands from migrating celts from Central Europe .............maybe Lebrok can help here of the Iberian posters

Where did you find that these places had L446?? I have never found anywhere that said that. Regardless, I am glad that it can be found there because that makes me less of an anomaly and my paternal line easier to explain.

Yes indeed, Galicia is very old Celtic... should I message Lebrok?

Huracan
30-07-14, 16:13
Yeah, I am not very familar with YHRD so I am a bit confused as to what you're saying, but it's ok. And the results from the heat map may be significant but since I could only compare with 10 markers, it's nowhere near as accurate as the other marker amounts.

Sile
30-07-14, 20:53
Where did you find that these places had L446?? I have never found anywhere that said that. Regardless, I am glad that it can be found there because that makes me less of an anomaly and my paternal line easier to explain.

Yes indeed, Galicia is very old Celtic... should I message Lebrok?

there are L446 in all the Caucasus, from people in dagestan to the lezkins to the azeri to the armenians ( unsure for georgians), Balkar people in the mountains of north caucasus has also some L446 .

Ask anyone , maybe the iberian posters are your best bet , as I am unsure when northern Spain became celtinized ..............there are L446 in central and southern germany , the alps, hungaria .

Try
http://www.smgf.org/index.jspx

many Iberians test here .........its free, but allows anyone to try their site only twice per day.

Sile
30-07-14, 20:56
Yeah, I am not very familar with YHRD so I am a bit confused as to what you're saying, but it's ok. And the results from the heat map may be significant but since I could only compare with 10 markers, it's nowhere near as accurate as the other marker amounts.

YHRD due to their stringent testing methods are the only genetic company used by all nations for forensic testing .

the only problem with YHRD is that they will never reveal the name of the origin of the sampler. But I was told last week that they do reveal the geographical ancestry.

I am stating in my post#88, that I tested all the 5 tests.
Starting from right to the left.

the furthest , the right one , the 5th , showed zero markers for me
the 4th showed 1 match
the 3rd showed 2 matches
the 1st and 2nd showed 3 matches.
meaning that the further right in the tests you go the more accurate would be you geographical ancestors..............not to say that test #1 is in error, which it is not.

Huracan
31-07-14, 15:13
there are L446 in all the Caucasus, from people in dagestan to the lezkins to the azeri to the armenians ( unsure for georgians), Balkar people in the mountains of north caucasus has also some L446 .

Ask anyone , maybe the iberian posters are your best bet , as I am unsure when northern Spain became celtinized ..............there are L446 in central and southern germany , the alps, hungaria .

Try
http://www.smgf.org/index.jspx

many Iberians test here .........its free, but allows anyone to try their site only twice per day.

I used it yesterday and today and the closest match I got was a man from Brazil with surname Martins (Portuguese) with whom I had a 23/26 match using 13-13 for DYS385. I was given the following data for that result:
Most likely TMRCA - 21 generations - 651 years
25% Cumulative Probability -18 gens - 558 years
50% Cumulative Probability - 26 gens - 806 years
75% Cumulative Probability - 35 gens - 1085 years
Note: I only differed with him at DYS385b, YCAIIb, and DYS442

Using 13-16 for DYS385, I got a 24/26 match with the same man and this was the new TMRCA data:
Most likely TMRCA - 14 generations - 434 years
25% Cumulative Probability -13 gens - 403 years
50% Cumulative Probability - 19 gens - 589 years
75% Cumulative Probability - 27 gens - 837 years
Note: I only differed with him at YCAIIb, and DYS442

Mind you, the other results I got where an Italian man (Lippi), several Englishmen, and a Mexican which were close in relation (80-70%) but were nowhere near as the 88 and 92% with this individual.

Huracan
31-07-14, 15:18
Which value for the TMRCA should I pay most attention to? the "Most likely TMRCA" or the "75% Cumulative Prob."??

Sile
31-07-14, 20:14
I used it yesterday and today and the closest match I got was a man from Brazil with surname Martins (Portuguese) with whom I had a 23/26 match using 13-13 for DYS385. I was given the following data for that result:
Most likely TMRCA - 21 generations - 651 years
25% Cumulative Probability -18 gens - 558 years
50% Cumulative Probability - 26 gens - 806 years
75% Cumulative Probability - 35 gens - 1085 years
Note: I only differed with him at DYS385b, YCAIIb, and DYS442

Using 13-16 for DYS385, I got a 24/26 match with the same man and this was the new TMRCA data:
Most likely TMRCA - 14 generations - 434 years
25% Cumulative Probability -13 gens - 403 years
50% Cumulative Probability - 19 gens - 589 years
75% Cumulative Probability - 27 gens - 837 years
Note: I only differed with him at YCAIIb, and DYS442

Mind you, the other results I got where an Italian man (Lippi), several Englishmen, and a Mexican which were close in relation (80-70%) but were nowhere near as the 88 and 92% with this individual.

thanks

I only got lippi from your above tests...........I contacted him. he is from Brescia ( north of , as stated) in east lombardy, Italy
I will check again against lippi late and let you know

remove the fast mutating STR and your GD might be closer or test again without the fast mutating STR

Huracan
31-07-14, 23:19
thanks

I only got lippi from your above tests...........I contacted him. he is from Brescia ( north of , as stated) in east lombardy, Italy
I will check again against lippi late and let you know

remove the fast mutating STR and your GD might be closer or test again without the fast mutating STR

When I excluded DYS385, DYS439, DYS458, DYS449, and DYS464, I got Lippi and Martins as my closest matches. This time, it says Lippi and I have a most likely TMRCA of 20 generations (620 years) while Martins is 21 generations (651 years).

Huracan
31-07-14, 23:31
Going along with my Celtic-distribution theory, Brescia was occupied by a Gallic tribe in the 7th century BC. When the Romans came in 225 BC, the tribe (Cenomani) submitted. In 202 BC, it became part of a Celtic confederation against the Romans but suddenly switched allegencies and attacked their long-time allies, the Gallic Insubres. Afterwards, they became allies, maintained a certain administrative freedom, and, in 41 BC, they were given Roman citizenship (becoming Romanized), in Brescia (which became a Roman city in 89 BC).
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brescia

Huracan
31-07-14, 23:43
Not to go off on a tangent, but I'm starting to consider more and more at least some of the L446 lineages were spread by the migrating Celts from southern Germany and Austria (Alpine region). The close relation (anywhere between 0-3, maybe 4, steps) of T-L446 individuals from Ireland, Scotland, England, France, Germany, and Italy seems to indicate a more recent TMRCA than the Neolithic times, when you would ordinarily expect a Neolithic haplogroup to spread throughout Europe.

I do not know if this hypothesis is applicable to all cases. For instance, the Espinoza individual from Peru (who is T-CTS11984) is 0-1 steps from individuals from Russia and East Europe, but that was using only 12 Y-STRs. He stated in his Nat Geno 2.0 story that "he was surprised to find that his father had Ashkenazim roots." I always thought that meant his paternal grandmother's side, but it could actually be his father's too; this would explain why his line has 0-1 steps from Belarusians, Poles, and Russians. I honestly do not know what to make of it though. These are all assumptions.

Sile
01-08-14, 11:16
Going along with my Celtic-distribution theory, Brescia was occupied by a Gallic tribe in the 7th century BC. When the Romans came in 225 BC, the tribe (Cenomani) submitted. In 202 BC, it became part of a Celtic confederation against the Romans but suddenly switched allegencies and attacked their long-time allies, the Gallic Insubres. Afterwards, they became allies, maintained a certain administrative freedom, and, in 41 BC, they were given Roman citizenship (becoming Romanized), in Brescia (which became a Roman city in 89 BC).
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brescia

before the cenomani arrived in the brescia/verona areas........they lived in southern france...between Marseilles and the spanish border...............and even before that, their origin is in Vendee in NW France near brittany

Huracan
04-08-14, 23:17
@KF

Try the new Beta YHRD.org site , do the manual imput selection, select the middle option ( 17 STR marker) and place your heat map when you are finished in here.

YHRD.org is the most accurate Ydna test that is done..........they get 5 different samples from every individual tested and throw all out if 1 sample is corrupt.

below is my heat map for 16/17 exact markers ( red )...........blue indicates all other T people with 12 to 15 exact markers which match me.

I have only 1 person which is 17/17 with me ........from linz, Austria ...............I think it is my relative Carlo who left for salzburg in 1871.

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/newheatyhrd_zps1c67bae1.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/newheatyhrd_zps1c67bae1.jpg.html)

the only issue with YHRD is that they never reveal the owner that was tested.

BTW...I never tested in YHRD

Sile, would you say that those red individuals are also T-L446?? If so, this would help in pin-pointing my paternal origins. Also, I messaged Lebrok (who wasn't Iberian) and he said that without enough or further research, it is too early to tell about the distribution of L446 in at least Spain.

Sile
05-08-14, 12:12
Sile, would you say that those red individuals are also T-L446?? If so, this would help in pin-pointing my paternal origins. Also, I messaged Lebrok (who wasn't Iberian) and he said that without enough or further research, it is too early to tell about the distribution of L446 in at least Spain.

yes, but this map is only the minimal tests (12 marker test). as I go to the next test, everything disappears except the north italy , slovenia, Austria and hungary markers


In the bigY.........there are 3 x L446, one from Faenza in italy bordering tuscany and emilia-romagna..........and 2 in peru..........you might have some luck there. but I do not have the kit numbers ( i only have the tuscan kit#).............none of these are Yhrd tested

Huracan
05-08-14, 18:53
I recently reevaluated my STRs using YHRD (this time uploading my STRs via an Excel file) and used the Yfilter Plus, but I only got results from the Minimal Haplotype Database since no one matches me at the higher resolutions. I got the same results as last time.

For 13-16 for DYS385:
1 Greek (from Athens)
1 Tosk Albanian
1 Czech (from Prague)
1 Bhil Indian (from Gujarat)

I noticed this for the matches, does this mean they match all the markers I put in?
6522

Further, using 13-13 for DYS385, I got 2 matches at the SWGDAM level:
1 Austrian (from Oberöstereich)
1 Slovenian (from Ljubljana)

Note these were brighter and closer to me than the Prague or Albanian sample. The Greek, Indian, Austrian, and Slovenian were the brightest and closest to me.

Does this make the Bhil Indian L446+? If so, this would expand the range of L446 and possibly L131 very far east indeed. L446 has already been confirmed in some Saudi Arabian individuals but comparing our STRs, they are not closely related to us at all. If I were to guess, the Bhil Indian's L446 likely arrived in India from a Neolithic migrant from the Near East. I had previously thought of the Hellenic Greeks (due to his relation to the Greek sample) with their widespread empire being a possibility but the empire never reached into India.

Huracan
05-08-14, 19:19
Also, considering everything, my hypothesis on the origin of L446 in Spain and the origin of my paternal line is via the Cardial Ware culture of the Early Neolithic. It reached as far west as the Mondego on Portugal's Atlantic coast. L446 would have accompanied L131 migrants and could likely be found at small frequencies all over Spain (an assumption).

Then, as Neolithic populations expanded, the descendants of the Cardial (Epi-Cardial) and subsequent Megalithic culture (originating from southern Portugal) would have brought agriculture (and L446) into Galicia, Asturias, and Cantabria. As sources state that these regions were only introduced to agriculture via the Megalithic culture, then it would have most likely carried T with it.

I am not saying this is the only option and numerous other sources could have introduced T to these regions, but for L446, I see this is as a plausible scenario.

What confirms this is the relation my STRs and paternal line has to Galicians (1), Portuguese (2), and Italians (1-2 from northern parts and 2-3 from southern parts), indicating at least a distant paternal relation likely established by the expanding Cardial through the Mediterranean.

Sile
05-08-14, 21:07
yes, but this map is only the minimal tests (12 marker test). as I go to the next test, everything disappears except the north italy , slovenia, Austria and hungary markers


In the bigY.........there are 3 x L446, one from Faenza in italy bordering tuscany and emilia-romagna..........and 2 in peru..........you might have some luck there. but I do not have the kit numbers ( i only have the tuscan kit#).............none of these are Yhrd tested

oops error...not peru ,........ but iberia ( galicia) and puerto rico

Sile
05-08-14, 21:12
I recently reevaluated my STRs using YHRD (this time uploading my STRs via an Excel file) and used the Yfilter Plus, but I only got results from the Minimal Haplotype Database since no one matches me at the higher resolutions. I got the same results as last time.

For 13-16 for DYS385:
1 Greek (from Athens)
1 Tosk Albanian
1 Czech (from Prague)
1 Bhil Indian (from Gujarat)

I noticed this for the matches, does this mean they match all the markers I put in?
6522

Further, using 13-13 for DYS385, I got 2 matches at the SWGDAM level:
1 Austrian (from Oberöstereich)
1 Slovenian (from Ljubljana)

Note these were brighter and closer to me than the Prague or Albanian sample. The Greek, Indian, Austrian, and Slovenian were the brightest and closest to me.

Does this make the Bhil Indian L446+? If so, this would expand the range of L446 and possibly L131 very far east indeed. L446 has already been confirmed in some Saudi Arabian individuals but comparing our STRs, they are not closely related to us at all. If I were to guess, the Bhil Indian's L446 likely arrived in India from a Neolithic migrant from the Near East. I had previously thought of the Hellenic Greeks (due to his relation to the Greek sample) with their widespread empire being a possibility but the empire never reached into India.

do you have same areas as my post #83?


bhil india has 50% of european stock
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0032546


check the help guide for other information.

You might need to wait until all the drop down areas are finished and working, then see your admixture

Sile
05-08-14, 21:17
Also, considering everything, my hypothesis on the origin of L446 in Spain and the origin of my paternal line is via the Cardial Ware culture of the Early Neolithic. It reached as far west as the Mondego on Portugal's Atlantic coast. L446 would have accompanied L131 migrants and could likely be found at small frequencies all over Spain (an assumption).

Then, as Neolithic populations expanded, the descendants of the Cardial (Epi-Cardial) and subsequent Megalithic culture (originating from southern Portugal) would have brought agriculture (and L446) into Galicia, Asturias, and Cantabria. As sources state that these regions were only introduced to agriculture via the Megalithic culture, then it would have most likely carried T with it.

I am not saying this is the only option and numerous other sources could have introduced T to these regions, but for L446, I see this is as a plausible scenario.

What confirms this is the relation my STRs and paternal line has to Galicians (1), Portuguese (2), and Italians (1-2 from northern parts and 2-3 from southern parts), indicating at least a distant paternal relation likely established by the expanding Cardial through the Mediterranean.

ok

I have no doubt that T went with G, L, I and J into europe in the per-neolitihic times .

Why are you not placing L446 under L131 and its other branches? and seeing where they went. Subclades usually moved together with other haplogroups

T1a2 CTS2157, L131
• • • • T1a2* -
• • • • T1a2a P322, P328
• • • • T1a2b CTS11796, CTS12108, L446

P322 and P328 IIRC are germanic

Huracan
06-08-14, 01:33
ok

I have no doubt that T went with G, L, I and J into europe in the per-neolitihic times .

Why are you not placing L446 under L131 and its other branches? and seeing where they went. Subclades usually moved together with other haplogroups

T1a2 CTS2157, L131
• • • • T1a2* -
• • • • T1a2a P322, P328
• • • • T1a2b CTS11796, CTS12108, L446

P322 and P328 IIRC are germanic

Actually, I kind of overlooked that. That makes total sense. I will look over where L131 is found in Iberia see where that leads me.

The fact that P322 and P328 being Germanic makes complete sense given their distribution (Netherlands, northern Germany, Scandinavia, and Poland)

Huracan
06-08-14, 01:36
oops error...not peru ,........ but iberia ( galicia) and puerto rico

Interesting!!! The L446 in Galicia is starting to seem more promising

Huracan
06-08-14, 01:39
do you have same areas as my post #83?


bhil india has 50% of european stock
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0032546


check the help guide for other information.

You might need to wait until all the drop down areas are finished and working, then see your admixture

In post 83, we both share "matches" (red) with the individuals from Prague, Austria, Slovenia, Albania, and Greece.

What will the admixture reveal? I didn't test with YHRD, I only looked to see matches in their database.

Sile
07-08-14, 20:27
In post 83, we both share "matches" (red) with the individuals from Prague, Austria, Slovenia, Albania, and Greece.

What will the admixture reveal? I didn't test with YHRD, I only looked to see matches in their database.

The admixture part as well as others parts of Yhrd have not been finished yet...you will need to wait

Sile
10-08-14, 02:01
In post 83, we both share "matches" (red) with the individuals from Prague, Austria, Slovenia, Albania, and Greece.

What will the admixture reveal? I didn't test with YHRD, I only looked to see matches in their database.

check ftdna projects for Azores , galicia and spain ..................see if the T there matches you.........it does not match me

Huracan
11-08-14, 17:52
I checked the FTDNA Projects for the Azores, Portugal, Galicia, and Spain. Only one person out of all those projects was T-L446, a man from the Azores project whose earliest ancestor was Antonio Dutra born in Portugal but is 6+ steps away from me. If you analyze his surname, it means someone from Utra in Flanders or Utrecht, meaning his L446 likely came from the Belgium-Netherlands area of Western Europe and technically not of Iberian stock.

I checked YFull, I wonder if you know about it already. I looked at their experimental tree and noticed the only individuals that were downstream of L446 were a Puerto Rican and a Spaniard (they were listed as CTS10538+, equivalent to CTS8862).

Sile
13-08-14, 08:13
I checked the FTDNA Projects for the Azores, Portugal, Galicia, and Spain. Only one person out of all those projects was T-L446, a man from the Azores project whose earliest ancestor was Antonio Dutra born in Portugal but is 6+ steps away from me. If you analyze his surname, it means someone from Utra in Flanders or Utrecht, meaning his L446 likely came from the Belgium-Netherlands area of Western Europe and technically not of Iberian stock.

I checked YFull, I wonder if you know about it already. I looked at their experimental tree and noticed the only individuals that were downstream of L446 were a Puerto Rican and a Spaniard (they were listed as CTS10538+, equivalent to CTS8862).

I have checked YFull, but am unsure if its worthwhile. I have 2 of the CTS for the iberian and puerto rican, but have negative for the others. I think I sit between the TSI tuscan and these 2.

I figure I need to wait until they sort out their tree to match Isogg new July tree

YHRD is now only 1 step to go to complete new system...the admixture one. I reran it and only match , Austria, slovenia and north-east Italy .......all the rest have disappeared

Sile
30-08-14, 22:17
how do you count genetic distance?

the infinite system or the step system

example if we have DYS390 of 22 for me and 24 for you ..........and every other SNP is identical

then IIRC, infinite system means a GD of 1 and
a step system means a GD of 2

this is why Ftdna GD numbers are different from ysearch GD numbers


it amazes me that in ftdna we have a 0 GD,
a 6 GD in ysearch and a
4 GD in ftdna T project

Sile
01-09-14, 08:46
@ fundora

I got my negative rsults from Natgeno2 ( the long way round)

I have no M184 at all
negative for L25 and page00113 and many others

let me know what you got

Huracan
04-09-14, 02:56
how do you count genetic distance?

the infinite system or the step system

example if we have DYS390 of 22 for me and 24 for you ..........and every other SNP is identical

then IIRC, infinite system means a GD of 1 and
a step system means a GD of 2

this is why Ftdna GD numbers are different from ysearch GD numbers


it amazes me that in ftdna we have a 0 GD,
a 6 GD in ysearch and a
4 GD in ftdna T project

I think I was using the step system...

Huracan
04-09-14, 03:03
@ fundora

I got my negative rsults from Natgeno2 ( the long way round)

I have no M184 at all
negative for L25 and page00113 and many others

let me know what you got

FTDNA has me as "presumed positive" for M184 but positive for M272. Morley DNA confirmed I am negative for M184 and for L206. I'm also CYS9984+ which I believe you used to be designated as. I am also CTS12108+ as you are, but ISOGG places that as equivalent to L446... wouldn't you want to use a more downstream or terminal SNP?

Sile
04-09-14, 04:00
FTDNA has me as "presumed positive" for M184 but positive for M272. Morley DNA confirmed I am negative for M184 and for L206. I'm also CYS9984+ which I believe you used to be designated as. I am also CTS12108+ as you are, but ISOGG places that as equivalent to L446... wouldn't you want to use a more downstream or terminal SNP?

I have these "presume positives" all cleared up..........basically, for me, I have no M184 or M193 or L206 or L455 at all



.i do not have the basal M184 for T
M183 Y A A
M185 Y C C
M186 Y I I
M187 Y D D
M188 Y C C

but have the other basal for T
M272 Y G G

I do not have M193
M190 Y A A
M191 Y T T
M192 Y C C
M194 Y T T
M195 Y A A


i do not have L206
L204 Y C C
L205 Y A A
L208 Y C C
L209 Y C C
L21 Y C C



I do not have L455
L451 Y G G
L453 Y C C
L454 Y C C
L455 Y - -
L456 Y A A
L457 Y G G
L458 Y C C
L46 Y A A

I do have L25 ........but I am negative ..........I am also negative for Page000113
L25 Y T T

To conclude the term "presumed positive" in ftdna means... although I do not have these markers I have equivalent markers in the same group

Some noted people, want me to Test BigY or Y prime as they think I have entered Europe in Mesolithic times and my genes would indicate where and when L446 began ..............I said, when I can afford it, having my father ill and sending a son to Europe has strained the coffers.

---Have you found your ancestral trail?


the correct marker call is what you have CTS8862...........I am positive for this as well. I will change mine soon in this forum

- Do you have matches with Reddick, Mozetic, or Dalessio and Fava
I am in a long email discussion with reddick...they are german from Hesse, with names Retgen, Rettig, Ruddoch and others.....I have 0 GD with this person.
Mozetic is Mozetti from south tyrol...I have 0 GD with this person

Dalessio as above, his parents from Molise italy, boy was born in 1879 in Salerno Campania Italy, left for USA in 1882, ............I have a 2 GD in ftdna with this person and a 15GD in ysearch ?!?!?!?!

Huracan
04-09-14, 17:47
I have these "presume positives" all cleared up..........basically, for me, I have no M184 or M193 or L206 or L455 at all



.i do not have the basal M184 for T
M183 Y A A
M185 Y C C
M186 Y I I
M187 Y D D
M188 Y C C

but have the other basal for T
M272 Y G G

I do not have M193
M190 Y A A
M191 Y T T
M192 Y C C
M194 Y T T
M195 Y A A


i do not have L206
L204 Y C C
L205 Y A A
L208 Y C C
L209 Y C C
L21 Y C C



I do not have L455
L451 Y G G
L453 Y C C
L454 Y C C
L455 Y - -
L456 Y A A
L457 Y G G
L458 Y C C
L46 Y A A

I do have L25 ........but I am negative ..........I am also negative for Page000113
L25 Y T T

To conclude the term "presumed positive" in ftdna means... although I do not have these markers I have equivalent markers in the same group

Some noted people, want me to Test BigY or Y prime as they think I have entered Europe in Mesolithic times and my genes would indicate where and when L446 began ..............I said, when I can afford it, having my father ill and sending a son to Europe has strained the coffers.

---Have you found your ancestral trail?


the correct marker call is what you have CTS8862...........I am positive for this as well. I will change mine soon in this forum

- Do you have matches with Reddick, Mozetic, or Dalessio and Fava
I am in a long email discussion with reddick...they are german from Hesse, with names Retgen, Rettig, Ruddoch and others.....I have 0 GD with this person.
Mozetic is Mozetti from south tyrol...I have 0 GD with this person

Dalessio as above, his parents from Molise italy, boy was born in 1879 in Salerno Campania Italy, left for USA in 1882, ............I have a 2 GD in ftdna with this person and a 15GD in ysearch ?!?!?!?!

I am also negative for L206, L445, L452, M184, and M193. I am positive for M272 as you are.

Comparing 12 Y-STRs, I have 0 GD with Reddick and Mozetic (DYS385: 13, 13). I cannot find Dalessio or Fava on Ysearch or FTDNA.

In regards to my ancestral trail, I found that likely all Fundoras in Cuba came from the Canary Islands, as early as the 1730s. This means that my paternal line also came from the Canary Islands to Cuba. The recent migration of a Fundora family (friend's uncle's family) to Cuba from Galicia or Asturias in the 20th century points to a likely Iberian origin for Fundora... most likely Galician since:
(1) the closest genetic match I have (in fact that only one I have) at 37 Y-STRs is the Lemas individual from the Azores. His surname can be traced back to A Coruña, Galicia to the medieval times
(2) other close matches I had (especially SMGF) were from Portugal, next in line after Lemas
(3) migrational history increases the likelihood that my surname (and that my paternal family) would have come from Galicia, both in recent migrations of poor Galicians to Cuba and the early migrations of Galicians to the Canaries (15-16th centuries)

I think my paternal line will have no paper trail after my earliest current known paternal ancestor (Luis) because his parents were likely from the predecessor of the town Luis was born in. That predecessor town was abandoned and likely burnt to the ground in the 1890s.

Huracan
04-09-14, 17:49
But that Mesolithic link that they are suggesting is very interesting! And I wish you the best of luck with your family :)

Huracan
04-09-14, 17:53
A bit of a sidetrack, the previous statement of yours regarding to the presence of L446 in Galicia, Asturias, and Cantabria, especially the Cantabria area, may have some connection to the Franco-Cantabrian refugium but that's more Paleolithic.... never mind

Sile
05-09-14, 07:57
I am also negative for L206, L445, L452, M184, and M193. I am positive for M272 as you are.

Comparing 12 Y-STRs, I have 0 GD with Reddick and Mozetic (DYS385: 13, 13). I cannot find Dalessio or Fava on Ysearch or FTDNA.

.

Dalessio ysearch .............YSU4S

Huracan
07-09-14, 02:22
Dalessio ysearch .............YSU4S

He is greater than 6 steps away from me. I don't know, my genetic match list keeps on changing and seems confusing sometimes

Sile
08-09-14, 09:15
He is greater than 6 steps away from me. I don't know, my genetic match list keeps on changing and seems confusing sometimes

what do you mean by keeps changing?.....in ysearch?

6 steps away from you, well......15 steps away from me.........yet ftdna who once had Dalessio zero GD from me, now sits at 2 GD from me.

reddick is still zero from me as well as 3 other "hessians", Smelser, Belser and Pelser..............I wonder if they are all related

Clearly something is amiss in the computations that these sites use

Sile
08-09-14, 21:03
@ Fundora

do you have the following zero GD of these people in ftdna.

Charles Jones, David Hill, Thomas Jones ( not related to other Jones), Richard perry, William Atherholt, Enoch Scales, Johannes "Jhon" Schafer ...................all from USA, all from Virginia, South-Carolina or Georgia.......only Charles Jones claim british descent ( scot ). .............and Reddick, whose ancestors are hessian with names Rettig, retgen and ruddoch
The matrix links a few together

Huracan
10-09-14, 00:40
what do you mean by keeps changing?.....in ysearch?

6 steps away from you, well......15 steps away from me.........yet ftdna who once had Dalessio zero GD from me, now sits at 2 GD from me.

reddick is still zero from me as well as 3 other "hessians", Smelser, Belser and Pelser..............I wonder if they are all related

Clearly something is amiss in the computations that these sites use

In Ysearch I see that some individuals appear as matches one day and then the next they don't appear. I don't seem to understand why, maybe it's something with the system.

Sile
10-09-14, 20:51
@Fundora

After conversations, I am more CTS9984 than CTS8862 , ( I have both ) but they are equal as being in same branch......i am confused, I will need to check it out more..........maybe these 2 will eventually split. They do sit together in all T trees.

Huracan
11-09-14, 02:42
@ Fundora

do you have the following zero GD of these people in ftdna.

Charles Jones, David Hill, Thomas Jones ( not related to other Jones), Richard perry, William Atherholt, Enoch Scales, Johannes "Jhon" Schafer ...................all from USA, all from Virginia, South-Carolina or Georgia.......only Charles Jones claim british descent ( scot ). .............and Reddick, whose ancestors are hessian with names Rettig, retgen and ruddoch
The matrix links a few together

I have 0 GD with all of them on FTDNA (using 12 Y-STRs) except Schafer... I can't see or find him on my matches list.

Huracan
13-09-14, 16:43
Also, @Sile

When I compare Y-STRs, should I just count how much STRs are different? or should I count that plus the difference that value is from my mine?

For instance, if I am DYS393=13, DYS390=22, DYS19=13 and someone else is DYS393=13, DYS390=25, DYS19=14 should I say they are 2 steps away or 4 steps (25-22=3 + 14-13=1...=4 in total)?

I think the first method is better because the values fluctuate, increasing or decreasing in repeats randomly over time. Thus, to compare based on the values too would be unnecessary and account for too much variability.

Huracan
13-09-14, 19:15
In addition, when I only included the slow-mutating Y-STRs to Ysearch, Dalessio came up as 2 steps away from me and the Russo individual was 1 step away from me. The others were an assortment of English and German individuals, 1 Brazilian, 1 Irish, and 1 more Italian (Lippi).

Sile
13-09-14, 20:27
Also, @Sile

When I compare Y-STRs, should I just count how much STRs are different? or should I count that plus the difference that value is from my mine?

For instance, if I am DYS393=13, DYS390=22, DYS19=13 and someone else is DYS393=13, DYS390=25, DYS19=14 should I say they are 2 steps away or 4 steps (25-22=3 + 14-13=1...=4 in total)?

I think the first method is better because the values fluctuate, increasing or decreasing in repeats randomly over time. Thus, to compare based on the values too would be unnecessary and account for too much variability.

This is called the infinite or step system. I asked ftdna many times which they use and they do not answer.
I assume they use the infinite system which is your 2 step difference ( one for DYS390 and one for DYS19 ) ...I also think ysearch use the other system

Sile
13-09-14, 20:33
In addition, when I only included the slow-mutating Y-STRs to Ysearch, Dalessio came up as 2 steps away from me and the Russo individual was 1 step away from me. The others were an assortment of English and German individuals, 1 Brazilian, 1 Irish, and 1 more Italian (Lippi).

IN ysearch dalessio is sometimes 6 GD and sometimes 15 GD from me
Never seen Russo

Lippi , I only seen in SMGF and he is from Eastern Lombardy ...IIRC from Brescia

Do you get riggermann from dornbirn Austria ( near lake constance) , Ahmann from east prussia or Benedetto from central Italy ...............benedetto says ancestor married a german and name is fabricated.
Bene = good
detto = some say
Some say a good "person"


On another matter ..........I used gedmatch to seek matches over 9cm , I then isolated all the ones with Ydna of T2b ( our branch ). I then ran all these in the new Mdlp k23b ...........and all 7 of these people came up with South_german, Austrian and hungarian in their choices...... as for myself , I got South_german, bergamo and then Piedmont, austrian and then tuscan.
I then ran these same 7 across another 2 gedmatch tests and their numbers hover close to each other...........I am unsure what it all means.

Try gedmatch mdlp K23b for admixtures and also try the many matches with a 9cm and 9cm option and see which ydna T you get

Sile
13-09-14, 21:40
@fundora

Yfull and BigY has found 45 SNP's under T2ab branch
I suspect, these below to split to form further branches under L446

CTS1774, CTS3767, CTS8862, CTS9984, CTS11984 are downstream of L446. Listed 21 July 2014.

Huracan
16-09-14, 03:05
IN ysearch dalessio is sometimes 6 GD and sometimes 15 GD from me
Never seen Russo

Lippi , I only seen in SMGF and he is from Eastern Lombardy ...IIRC from Brescia

Do you get riggermann from dornbirn Austria ( near lake constance) , Ahmann from east prussia or Benedetto from central Italy ...............benedetto says ancestor married a german and name is fabricated.
Bene = good
detto = some say
Some say a good "person"


On another matter ..........I used gedmatch to seek matches over 9cm , I then isolated all the ones with Ydna of T2b ( our branch ). I then ran all these in the new Mdlp k23b ...........and all 7 of these people came up with South_german, Austrian and hungarian in their choices...... as for myself , I got South_german, bergamo and then Piedmont, austrian and then tuscan.
I then ran these same 7 across another 2 gedmatch tests and their numbers hover close to each other...........I am unsure what it all means.

Try gedmatch mdlp K23b for admixtures and also try the many matches with a 9cm and 9cm option and see which ydna T you get


I do not get Riggermann or Ahmann but I have seen Benedetto as a match before.

I took your advice on uploaded my data into GEDmatch. I have yet to pinpoint which admixture calculator is best, as they all seem to give roughly the same result. I cannot compare my results to other people (without their IDs) because it says my results have not been "batched" yet, meaning I can't do the "one-to-many" comparison.

Sile
16-09-14, 08:25
I do not get Riggermann or Ahmann but I have seen Benedetto as a match before.

I took your advice on uploaded my data into GEDmatch. I have yet to pinpoint which admixture calculator is best, as they all seem to give roughly the same result. I cannot compare my results to other people (without their IDs) because it says my results have not been "batched" yet, meaning I can't do the "one-to-many" comparison.

it takes a week sometimes

Huracan
17-09-14, 00:47
Never mind, the function became available today. I had a lot of matches but only 1 is T-L131 and he is 7.1 generations away. But just because we share a common ancestor and similar haplogroup does not mean we are related paternally.

Sile
19-09-14, 12:10
Never mind, the function became available today. I had a lot of matches but only 1 is T-L131 and he is 7.1 generations away. But just because we share a common ancestor and similar haplogroup does not mean we are related paternally.

who is your one L131

I have 4 ..........schale ( central germany) , Kile ( north germany) , Coad ( alsace/lorraine )and belser ( austria)

Huracan
21-09-14, 01:24
Peter Carson (M20504)

Sile
21-09-14, 09:32
Peter Carson (M20504)

thanks............. I have him as well, with
F161332........... Chris Schuetz
FN117532.........M.Coad
M211901...........Melissa Woody
F265478...........Tom Kile
M044240..........Rodney De Mott
F252356..........Chris Macedo

Sile
03-10-14, 22:30
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/isoggpredict_zpsc62a69ba.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/isoggpredict_zpsc62a69ba.jpg.html)

above is my positive only SNP according to Isogg July 2014 tree

Again I state , I do not have the basal T-M184

it seems to me that too many people think they have the main basal marker 100% of the time ............I am referring to all ydna markers

Huracan
08-10-14, 21:45
Hello Sile,

I was wondering if you knew any info about L446 (or even CTS8862 and its equivalent SNPs) in Spain? Recent research continues to suggest a Spanish origin of my paternal line. I want to know as much as possible about the distribution of L446 and its subclades before I can start making predictions and continuing research on where in Spain my line originates from.

Sile
09-10-14, 07:13
Hello Sile,

I was wondering if you knew any info about L446 (or even CTS8862 and its equivalent SNPs) in Spain? Recent research continues to suggest a Spanish origin of my paternal line. I want to know as much as possible about the distribution of L446 and its subclades before I can start making predictions and continuing research on where in Spain my line originates from.

I am noted as T-L446* ...............* means no more subclades............until these are sorted out into branches or not
CTS1774, CTS3767, CTS8862, CTS9984, CTS11984 are downstream of L446. Listed 21 July 2014.

I suspect CTS8862 and CTS11984 will just merge into L446 and the others will be more viable as branches

I think I already noted to you that Galicia and catalonia are you better spanish options for L446.....................I will keep looking.

Chris Morley sent me a private letter to do some special testing , but I cannot afford it at the moment..............I will try to find it and see if you can be my replacemnet

Huracan
09-10-14, 13:48
I am noted as T-L446* ...............* means no more subclades............until these are sorted out into branches or not
CTS1774, CTS3767, CTS8862, CTS9984, CTS11984 are downstream of L446. Listed 21 July 2014.

I suspect CTS8862 and CTS11984 will just merge into L446 and the others will be more viable as branches

I think I already noted to you that Galicia and catalonia are you better spanish options for L446.....................I will keep looking.

Chris Morley sent me a private letter to do some special testing , but I cannot afford it at the moment..............I will try to find it and see if you can be my replacemnet

I see, this makes sense... and no no don't worry, you should do it because it was offered to you.

Sile
18-10-14, 08:58
below is the new composite T tree released by Ray Banks early October 2014

I think there is a misprint on our branch............it should be T1a2b1a

https://sites.google.com/site/compositeytree/t

Sile
18-10-14, 20:20
The new tree has the term "provisional" for the marker L490 ...............this is the only marker I have that links me from Basal T to M70 (T1a)

Huracan
18-10-14, 21:58
below is the new composite T tree released by Ray Banks early October 2014

I think there is a misprint on our branch............it should be T1a2b1a

https://sites.google.com/site/compositeytree/t

I agree that it must be typo/misprint but nice to see some organization regarding all the T subclades.

Maciamo
19-10-14, 08:50
A bit of a sidetrack, the previous statement of yours regarding to the presence of L446 in Galicia, Asturias, and Cantabria, especially the Cantabria area, may have some connection to the Franco-Cantabrian refugium but that's more Paleolithic.... never mind

Please read this (http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/spain_portugal_dna.shtml#autosomal). I have explained that the presence of haplogroup T in Galicia, Asturias, and Cantabria is combined with the presence of haplogroups J1, E-M34 and E-M81, mtDNA L, M1, U3 and U6, and higher autosomal frequencies of Caucasian and Red Sea admixtures. This is either due to the settlement of north-west Iberia by Neolithic farmers from Southwest Asia via North Africa, or the expansion of south-west Iberian populations some time between 1000 BCE (from the time the Phoenicians settled the south-west) and 500 CE (end of the Roman period).

Sile
19-10-14, 10:21
Please read this (http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/spain_portugal_dna.shtml#autosomal). I have explained that the presence of haplogroup T in Galicia, Asturias, and Cantabria is combined with the presence of haplogroups J1, E-M34 and E-M81, mtDNA L, M1, U3 and U6, and higher autosomal frequencies of Caucasian and Red Sea admixtures. This is either due to the settlement of north-west Iberia by Neolithic farmers from Southwest Asia via North Africa, or the expansion of south-west Iberian populations some time between 1000 BCE (from the time the Phoenicians settled the south-west) and 500 CE (end of the Roman period).

thanks Maciano

but IMO this is basically the majority of the L162 branch ( P77), you will rarely find L131 branch in the med. especially western med.

Your K=20 paper ( laz ) seems more approporaite for T in regard sto kundora and myself. ...........you state it as
13) The Caucaso-Perso-Gedrosian admixture might be a composite of the West Asian branch of macro-haplogroup K, comprising mostly the original autosomal genes of carriers of Y-haplogroups L and T. Over time, L and T appear to have been replaced by the paternal lineages of successive invaders,

This scenario fits my haplotree in post #140. Because L298 is the LT marker (K1) and its origins are stated as being in the Sind valley ( close to gedrosia ), with L ( k1a) and T ( k1b) heading west through persia and east to india ( the T in india is only on the east side , basically one branch, the same branch that went to Oman centuries later)

regards

Sile
19-10-14, 10:26
@kundora

My Austin dewey Schales zero genetic distance matches person, is apparently in this book ............they came from hesse near the border of wuurtenberg
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=mChPAAAAMAAJ&q=austin+dewey+Schales&dq=austin+dewey+Schales&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gnVDVPvLHIPLmAWSzoLQCQ&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA

he matches me in ftdna, 23andme and ysearch............the connection must be pre 1700

Sile
19-10-14, 10:30
@kundora

Strange thing with ysearch.......if you load the numbers manually I get extra matches

I only load the first 15 numbers

Huracan
19-10-14, 22:38
Please read this (http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/spain_portugal_dna.shtml#autosomal). I have explained that the presence of haplogroup T in Galicia, Asturias, and Cantabria is combined with the presence of haplogroups J1, E-M34 and E-M81, mtDNA L, M1, U3 and U6, and higher autosomal frequencies of Caucasian and Red Sea admixtures. This is either due to the settlement of north-west Iberia by Neolithic farmers from Southwest Asia via North Africa, or the expansion of south-west Iberian populations some time between 1000 BCE (from the time the Phoenicians settled the south-west) and 500 CE (end of the Roman period).

Thank you, Maciamo. This clarifies a lot of my predictions and assumptions.

Huracan
19-10-14, 22:41
@kundora

Strange thing with ysearch.......if you load the numbers manually I get extra matches

I only load the first 15 numbers

That's weird...

Sile
20-10-14, 19:34
That's weird...

yes it is and sorry for miss spelling your name in other threads.

via this input system, I found another zero GD with me ....a french/german from Alsace

Do you have a person called crump in your Ftdna ?............he also appeared in ysearch for me as well, I don't know who he is

Sile
20-10-14, 19:43
@fundora

Have you completly finalised your maybe "bergamo" connection?.........you know the spanish where involved a lot in lombardy in the 16th century.

you could end up something like me, ...my grandmother is from Merlengo, this name was originally Marling, same name as a town in Swabia. History states it was created by swabian and alemanni people in the years 1000s as they belong to the mercenary's families who followed the nobility , ie, Scaliger, Ezzelini or Carrara families who originate on the other side of the alps

Huracan
21-10-14, 03:19
@fundora

Have you completly finalised your maybe "bergamo" connection?.........you know the spanish where involved a lot in lombardy in the 16th century.

you could end up something like me, ...my grandmother is from Merlengo, this name was originally Marling, same name as a town in Swabia. History states it was created by swabian and alemanni people in the years 1000s as they belong to the mercenary's families who followed the nobility , ie, Scaliger, Ezzelini or Carrara families who originate on the other side of the alps

Despite my best efforts, I cannot finalize any theory regarding my surname because there is no historical or official information regarding it whatsoever. I have done intensive research regarding all routes and I cannot pinpoint the best. My closest Y-STR matches are with an Azorean (surname Lemas, from FTDNA), a Brazilian (Martins, from SMGF), and two Italians (Lippi, from SMGF, & Russo, from Ysearch). This was done using a mixture of the total 37 STRs I tested and the 23 slow-mutating ones within that set. Other matches I see from Ysearch using the slow STRs are:

GD = 1

Russo (Naples, Italy ... but I read earlier in this thread that you said he was a Greek Jew?)

GD = 2

Carvalho (Brazil ... but reading his extra info, the original surname was Pinto)
Hill (USA)
Atwell (USA)
Frush (Germany)
Jones (?)
Schales (Germany)
Frush (USA)
Owens (USA)
Mitchell (USA)
Dalessio (Selerno, Italy ... isn't this the individual you mentioned earlier that his surname indicates ancestry from another part of Italy?)

GD = 3

Hill (USA)
Powell (USA) x 2
Powell (UK)
Sizemore (UK)
McKee (?)
Milligan (USA)
Welch (Ireland)
Fakes (?)


The issue is that sometimes these matches arise from random STR values that are similar to mine or the same but we don't actually share a "recent" paternal ancestry. Also, a large amount of individuals in these databases are Americans or from the British Isles, skewing the results somewhat (i.e. thinking you are closely related to an Englishmen when in reality you aren't). With the slow-mutating STRs, yes I can see that they might be close in relation somewhat because those values don't change as fast.

Huracan
21-10-14, 03:23
yes it is and sorry for miss spelling your name in other threads.

via this input system, I found another zero GD with me ....a french/german from Alsace

Do you have a person called crump in your Ftdna ?............he also appeared in ysearch for me as well, I don't know who he is

Oh no its fine and interesting... and yes he appeared on my 12 Y-STR match list on FTDNA at a GD of 0.

Huracan
21-10-14, 03:29
Wait, correction: the surname Fundora appears historically in Italy (as an uncommon misspelling of the Lucchesi Fondora), fundora is a Medieval Latin word originating in Italy (meaning "grounds", as a plural of fundus), and there are places in Naples called Fundora but these could just be pure coincidence... I cannot make any definitive connections.

Fundora is found in several places in Spain, especially Cataluña and the Canaries, but recent migration from Galicia first focused my attention on a Galician-Portuguese origin (where the poor economic conditions of Galicia explaining its high frequency in the industrious province of Barcelona, for instance) but I continually see Fundora as a possible shortened form of Fundadora ("female founder, foundress" in Spanish) which might throw off any paternal modes of connection.

Sile
21-10-14, 11:20
Wait, correction: the surname Fundora appears historically in Italy (as an uncommon misspelling of the Lucchesi Fondora), fundora is a Medieval Latin word originating in Italy (meaning "grounds", as a plural of fundus), and there are places in Naples called Fundora but these could just be pure coincidence... I cannot make any definitive connections.

Fundora is found in several places in Spain, especially Cataluña and the Canaries, but recent migration from Galicia first focused my attention on a Galician-Portuguese origin (where the poor economic conditions of Galicia explaining its high frequency in the industrious province of Barcelona, for instance) but I continually see Fundora as a possible shortened form of Fundadora ("female founder, foundress" in Spanish) which might throw off any paternal modes of connection.

I had a quick look at Fondra BDM's in Bergamo ( but it will take time )


I did find this
http://en.geneanet.org/profil/luisafundora/Luisa-Fundora
maybe your relative


and this
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3Afundora~

Sile
21-10-14, 11:28
My closest Y-STR matches , a Brazilian (Martins, from SMGF), and two Italians (Lippi, East Lombady from SMGF, & Belser Belluno, from Ysearch). T

Hill (USA) .......a hessian with a name change .....I have 3 Hill people...0 GD
Jones (?).....0 GD
Schales (Germany) a hessian...0 GD
Dalessio (Selerno, Italy ... isn't this the individual you mentioned earlier that his surname indicates ancestry from another part of Italy?) ...........Dalessio news is ...migrated from Naples to USA in 1882 at the age of 3 ( I have copy of manifest of ship) , settled previous in Salerno and the parents migrated from the Molise region to Salerno for work before child was born.............the only other Dalessio that went to the USA was 30 years before from Utrecht Netherlands. .....sometimes 2 GD and sometimes 3 GD

Huracan
21-10-14, 13:52
I had a quick look at Fondra BDM's in Bergamo ( but it will take time )


I did find this
http://en.geneanet.org/profil/luisafundora/Luisa-Fundora
maybe your relative


and this
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3Afundora~

Luisa Fundora is a Cuban living in France. My grandfather had contacted her a few years back, she isn't related to us. And I have searched before on FamilySearch, all Fundoras archived here are Cuban-Americans or Cuban migrants to other places (i.e. Brazil).

Huracan
21-10-14, 13:57
... & Belser Belluno, from Ysearch)...

Wait, I remember seeing the Russo individual was of the Russo surname project on FTDNA but you're saying he isn't actually a Russo? His surname is Belser and his paternal line goes back to Belluno in Venice?

Sile
21-10-14, 19:35
Wait, I remember seeing the Russo individual was of the Russo surname project on FTDNA but you're saying he isn't actually a Russo? His surname is Belser and his paternal line goes back to Belluno in Venice?

I was just saying that I do not have russo , but have a Belser

I have a benedetto from Molise ..............he married a german, the name is fabricated, it means some say good person

Dalessio is americanized surname, in Italy it would be one of the following:

Da Lessio = means from the town of Lessio in northern Italy ..............like Da Vinci = came from town called Vinci.
from Lessio you get another popular name as Less ( usually found in Alpine Italy ) , with Less there is another name which is Loss ( I have a very distant relative who was Bridiga Loss circa IIRC 1700 )

D'Alessio = means same as Di Alessio , it could mean he stated he was the son Alessio............again 80% plus this name is northern Italian.

Huracan
22-10-14, 02:39
Oh I see, never mind. My mistake.

Sile
26-10-14, 20:06
Oh I see, never mind. My mistake.

I check for every CTS8862 possible and could only find 5 people that where positive for it, You, me, Knox, Dalessio and a french/german ( no name found, but on the border)
all the others ( over 20 plus in number ) are negative tested and are isolated in saudi Arabia, mesopotamia, north germany and southern England .......

Dalessio and me get further and further apart the higher the number of markers
12 markers = 0 GD
25 markers = 3 GD
37 markers = 5 GD
67 markers = 15 GD
we both tested 67 markers

Huracan
26-10-14, 23:06
I check for every CTS8862 possible and could only find 5 people that where positive for it, You, me, Knox, Dalessio and a french/german ( no name found, but on the border)
all the others ( over 20 plus in number ) are negative tested and are isolated in saudi Arabia, mesopotamia, north germany and southern England .......

Dalessio and me get further and further apart the higher the number of markers
12 markers = 0 GD
25 markers = 3 GD
37 markers = 5 GD
67 markers = 15 GD
we both tested 67 markers

YFull lists 2 CTS8862+ (or positive for an equivalent SNP) one from Spain and one from Puerto Rico. Four more individuals were added to T-L446* but their origins have to be posted (they still say "new").

I have been reevaluating some STR relationships and used the slowest STRs from the 37 I tested. The results from Ysearch showed a close relationship to Italians (Russo, Rossi, Dalessio), Germans (Froschauer, Frush, Schales), Brits, 1 Brazilian (Carvalho, actually Pinto), and 1 Spaniard (Madrigal) amongst others (GD from 0-3) and on SMGF 1 Italian (Lippi), 1 German (Mueller), 1 Brazilian, and 2 Hispanics (Rojas, Lanas) (GD from 1-3).

The fact that I have Hispanic and Brazilian/Portuguese matches, as well as 2 other CTS8862+ of Spanish origin, confirms the likelihood that my immediate paternal ancestry was from Iberia, yet the other relationships clearly mean something else. I know I have dwelt on this notion before but there could an Indo-European connection...

The late Bronze Age spread of Indo-European peoples (namely Celts and Italics) in western and central Europe could explain this apparent close paternal relation amongst individuals in the British isles, Iberia, Germany, and Italy. It is interesting to note how Brits, Irish, Scots, southern Germans, (mostly northern) italians, and northern Iberians are all present in this group. The Spanish surnames of the individuals closest to me all have surnames originating in northern Spain (Rojas in Burgos or Lugo, Lanas in Navarre, Madrigal in Castile, also Lemas in Galicia [Lemas is the closest match to me on FTDNA, have yet to find out his STRs]), corroborating an at least Celtic connection. This could also explain the concentration of T in northern Spain, especially in Asturias and isolated parts of Cantabria.

This is solely my theory and there could be numerous holes. I still consider a Neolithic origin to be likely but have yet to see how it can compensate for these matches and their geographic patterns.

Sile
27-10-14, 07:05
YFull lists 2 CTS8862+ (or positive for an equivalent SNP) one from Spain and one from Puerto Rico. Four more individuals were added to T-L446* but their origins have to be posted (they still say "new").

I have been reevaluating some STR relationships and used the slowest STRs from the 37 I tested. The results from Ysearch showed a close relationship to Italians (Russo, Rossi, Dalessio), Germans (Froschauer, Frush, Schales), Brits, 1 Brazilian (Carvalho, actually Pinto), and 1 Spaniard (Madrigal) amongst others (GD from 0-3) and on SMGF 1 Italian (Lippi), 1 German (Mueller), 1 Brazilian, and 2 Hispanics (Rojas, Lanas) (GD from 1-3).

The fact that I have Hispanic and Brazilian/Portuguese matches, as well as 2 other CTS8862+ of Spanish origin, confirms the likelihood that my immediate paternal ancestry was from Iberia, yet the other relationships clearly mean something else. I know I have dwelt on this notion before but there could an Indo-European connection...

The late Bronze Age spread of Indo-European peoples (namely Celts and Italics) in western and central Europe could explain this apparent close paternal relation amongst individuals in the British isles, Iberia, Germany, and Italy. It is interesting to note how Brits, Irish, Scots, southern Germans, (mostly northern) italians, and northern Iberians are all present in this group. The Spanish surnames of the individuals closest to me all have surnames originating in northern Spain (Rojas in Burgos or Lugo, Lanas in Navarre, Madrigal in Castile, also Lemas in Galicia [Lemas is the closest match to me on FTDNA, have yet to find out his STRs]), corroborating an at least Celtic connection. This could also explain the concentration of T in northern Spain, especially in Asturias and isolated parts of Cantabria.

This is solely my theory and there could be numerous holes. I still consider a Neolithic origin to be likely but have yet to see how it can compensate for these matches and their geographic patterns.

I have no doubt the you are hispanic in the last few hundreds years , especially since we do not match from 25 markers and beyond. But Brazil is not entirely a hispanic colony, over 2 million veneti from northern italy settled in southern Brazil ( around sao Paulo ). There was so many that a dialect was created called Talian ( the name Venetians give to all Italians )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talian_dialect
easy for me to read..http://www.coromarmolada.it/talian.htm ...from southern Brazil

The other 3 million veneti who left between 1875 to 1970 settled in the other parts of the world with USA getting the fewest ( As USA was southern Italian area of settlement initially )

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/zerogd_zps3199609e.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/zerogd_zps3199609e.jpg.html)

Huracan
27-10-14, 13:33
I agree in regards to the fact that a lot of Brazilians do have a lot of Italian ancestry. The BrazilIan individual on SMGF was as close to me as was to Lippi sometimes, but we can't conclude anything regarding their ancestry unless they find a connection.

Sile
28-10-14, 08:34
I agree in regards to the fact that a lot of Brazilians do have a lot of Italian ancestry. The BrazilIan individual on SMGF was as close to me as was to Lippi sometimes, but we can't conclude anything regarding their ancestry unless they find a connection.

Which in my list do you not have!

Huracan
28-10-14, 14:25
Which in my list do you not have!

People you have that I don't:
-Dalessio

People I have that you don't:
-Curtiss
-Lemas
-Pierluisi

Sile
04-11-14, 18:52
@fundora

a new match in FF yesterday.........another "hessian" stated from USA, named Harris ?! ............3rd cousin this time ( some people say in Ftdna to add two levels ...5th cousin !?!)
with surnames
Parlier, Perlier, Pettit ...............seems french to me
Reese Schuster ............German
Soot ...............slang Italian , meaning dry
Steinseiffer ............austrian/bavarian
Tudor ...................NW Italian .......or English

Huracan
04-11-14, 22:29
Interesting. Well, I didn't get any new matches in Family Tree DNA.

Sile
20-11-14, 11:45
Interesting. Well, I didn't get any new matches in Family Tree DNA.

the knox person on this site below is the only other CTS8862+ that I have found which matches our postive marker

http://knoxsociety.org/knox_dna_overview.htm

he is from Ireland ......................maybe a lost spaniard from the Armada:waaaht:

Sile
20-11-14, 11:47
http://knoxsociety.org/knox_dna_overview.htm

Huracan
23-11-14, 17:43
Sile,

I found a better TMRCA calculator than MacDonald's, it's by Tim Janzen and can be accessed from http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Y-DNA_tools under TMRCA Calculators. His Excel program allows for hundreds of haplotypes to be put in at once and puts out several TMRCAs in generations and years based on different methods and using different STRs.

I put into it my STRs, your's (your are Pretotto, correct?), Knox from N Ireland, Knox from US, and Mason as we are the only CTS8862 whose STRs are available. Knox from US and Mason are predicted CTS8862 due to their close relation to Knox from N Ireland who is confirmed CTS8862. Looking at the TMRCAs that removed the fast STRs and included the best methods and corrections, I discovered that our most recent common ancestor was about 64 generations ago or 1,900 years. Since I used my father as a reference point, that puts our MRCA in the 1st century to 2nd century CE. This may not be the actual appearance of our SNP but it is still significant because for our paternal lines to be traced in "recent" times to the British Isles, Italy, and Spain yet still be related at some point almost 2,000 years ago is very interesting. I looked at our individual relations, aka inputting only 2 haplotypes at a time, and saw that I was closest in relation to Knox from N Ireland, with a MRCA living 595 years ago, putting that man living around the late 14th century. What does this all mean? I have yet to figure it out, but there must have been some demographic event or historical population that could have caused a far flung distribution of descendants in a short amount of time. I looked into the Jewish diaspora from Judaea after the destruction of the Second Temple and it correlates with the time period of our last common ancestor. These Jews, who either fled to other parts of the Roman Empire or were sold into slavery in Rome likely distributed themselves far and wide. It cannot be said how quickly they could have converted into Christianity to assimilate and avoid the cycle of persecution they suffered throughout time or if they did so at all. For my MRCA with Knox, there could be a link to the Sephardi Jews that fled Spain only a century later in the late 15th century, some of which did migrate to the British Isles... but that occurred during the 17th and 18th centuries, possibly contradicting these theories since Knox's earliest ancestor was born 1759 in Strabane.

Janzen did state that the 37 and 67 STR calculations in his Excel program did sometimes underestimate the TMRCA, for which I can see is a possibility here. I also went along and tried evaluating the TMRCA for other T-L131 sub-clades, including L446 itself. Here is what I got:

L446: 5,000 years ago (not including Saudi and Kuwaiti STRs, might be older once I include them)
-CTS11984: 3,800 years ago
--CTS8862: 1,900 years ago
--PS11: 900 years ago
P322: 3,400 years ago

*All of these results were done using 37 STRs.

Sile
23-11-14, 20:30
Sile,

I found a better TMRCA calculator than MacDonald's, it's by Tim Janzen and can be accessed from http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Y-DNA_tools under TMRCA Calculators. His Excel program allows for hundreds of haplotypes to be put in at once and puts out several TMRCAs in generations and years based on different methods and using different STRs.

I put into it my STRs, your's (your are Pretotto, correct?), Knox from N Ireland, Knox from US, and Mason as we are the only CTS8862 whose STRs are available. Knox from US and Mason are predicted CTS8862 due to their close relation to Knox from N Ireland who is confirmed CTS8862. Looking at the TMRCAs that removed the fast STRs and included the best methods and corrections, I discovered that our most recent common ancestor was about 64 generations ago or 1,900 years. Since I used my father as a reference point, that puts our MRCA in the 1st century to 2nd century CE. This may not be the actual appearance of our SNP but it is still significant because for our paternal lines to be traced in "recent" times to the British Isles, Italy, and Spain yet still be related at some point almost 2,000 years ago is very interesting. I looked at our individual relations, aka inputting only 2 haplotypes at a time, and saw that I was closest in relation to Knox from N Ireland, with a MRCA living 595 years ago, putting that man living around the late 14th century. What does this all mean? I have yet to figure it out, but there must have been some demographic event or historical population that could have caused a far flung distribution of descendants in a short amount of time. I looked into the Jewish diaspora from Judaea after the destruction of the Second Temple and it correlates with the time period of our last common ancestor. These Jews, who either fled to other parts of the Roman Empire or were sold into slavery in Rome likely distributed themselves far and wide. It cannot be said how quickly they could have converted into Christianity to assimilate and avoid the cycle of persecution they suffered throughout time or if they did so at all. For my MRCA with Knox, there could be a link to the Sephardi Jews that fled Spain only a century later in the late 15th century, some of which did migrate to the British Isles... but that occurred during the 17th and 18th centuries, possibly contradicting these theories since Knox's earliest ancestor was born 1759 in Strabane.

Janzen did state that the 37 and 67 STR calculations in his Excel program did sometimes underestimate the TMRCA, for which I can see is a possibility here. I also went along and tried evaluating the TMRCA for other T-L131 sub-clades, including L446 itself. Here is what I got:

L446: 5,000 years ago (not including Saudi and Kuwaiti STRs, might be older once I include them)
-CTS11984: 3,800 years ago
--CTS8862: 1,900 years ago
--PS11: 900 years ago
P322: 3,400 years ago

*All of these results were done using 37 STRs.

Thanks for this

Below is the other confirmed CTS8862..........Dalessio ( no such name in Italy ) it was either D'Alessio or da Lessio ..........both Alessio and Lessio are 70% + in Italy from my paternal area.
13 22 13 10 13 13 11 12 11 14 13 30 16 9 9 11 12 27 15 19 35 11 11 15 16 10 11 23 25 16 13 19 16 34 34 14 9 12 11 15 11 8 17 17 8 11 10 8 12 11 20 20 17 10 12 12 15 8 26 21 11 12 14 10 11 12 11

try that one out and see where we all fit.

I will get you the other 2 I recently found

BTW...CTS11984 might also be worth investigating
and
I have found zero CTS8862+ in Arabia and the mesopotamia area..........all are tested CTS8862-

Sile
23-11-14, 23:38
With Dalessio I get

Age in years for 37 markers using James Heald's method and Chandler's mutation rates after removing CDYa, CDYb, and DYS 464:
1002

and with Vernon Jones from North Carolina year 1760
Age in years for 37 markers using James Heald's method and Chandler's mutation rates after removing CDYa, CDYb, and DYS 464:
1545

Huracan
24-11-14, 02:22
Thanks for this

Below is the other confirmed CTS8862..........Dalessio ( no such name in Italy ) it was either D'Alessio or da Lessio ..........both Alessio and Lessio are 70% + in Italy from my paternal area.
13 22 13 10 13 13 11 12 11 14 13 30 16 9 9 11 12 27 15 19 35 11 11 15 16 10 11 23 25 16 13 19 16 34 34 14 9 12 11 15 11 8 17 17 8 11 10 8 12 11 20 20 17 10 12 12 15 8 26 21 11 12 14 10 11 12 11

try that one out and see where we all fit.

I will get you the other 2 I recently found

BTW...CTS11984 might also be worth investigating
and
I have found zero CTS8862+ in Arabia and the mesopotamia area..........all are tested CTS8862-

Oh I forgot about him, I will include him now. I would also greatly appreciate those other 2 CTS8862. I know there are 2 other CTS8862 from YFull that are Puerto Rican and Spanish but we do not know their STRs.

Just as a reminder, this was a preliminary and tentative theory. It will take much more research to confirm my statements.

Huracan
24-11-14, 02:24
With Dalessio I get

Age in years for 37 markers using James Heald's method and Chandler's mutation rates after removing CDYa, CDYb, and DYS 464:
1002

and with Vernon Jones from North Carolina year 1760
Age in years for 37 markers using James Heald's method and Chandler's mutation rates after removing CDYa, CDYb, and DYS 464:
1545

Is Vernon Jones also CTS8862+?

Huracan
24-11-14, 02:24
Yes, CTS11984 might also be worth investigating. It is found only among European L446 (as well as Russian, Turkish, and Armenian I think) and that is surely very interesting.

Sile
24-11-14, 02:48
Oh I forgot about him, I will include him now. I would also greatly appreciate those other 2 CTS8862. I know there are 2 other CTS8862 from YFull that are Puerto Rican and Spanish but we do not know their STRs.

Just as a reminder, this was a preliminary and tentative theory. It will take much more research to confirm my statements.

the Tuscan from yfull

TSI NA20758 T* 19 14 19 29 14 10 26 12 12 9 15 17 21 22 12 13 11 13 16 13 14 15 12

13 22 14 10 13-14 na na 12 14 13 29 16 x-xx xx xx xx 15 19 xx xx-xx-xx-xx xx 12 xx-xx 15 xx 19 17 xx-xx xx 9
DYS635= 21
DYS481= 26
DYS549= 12
DYS533= 12
DYS643= 11


#Genetic analyzer:3730xl; POP7
#File created: January 7, 2014
Population SampleID YHaplogroup DYS576 DYS389I DYS448 DYS389II DYS19 DYS391 DYS481 DYS549 DYS533 DYS438 DYS437 DYS570 DYS635 DYS390 DYS439 DYS392 DYS643 DYS393 DYS458 DYS385a DYS385b DYS456 Y-GATA-H4


you need to sort it out

Sile
24-11-14, 02:51
schales below ............i was told he was cts8862 ( unsure)

Schales Germany
13 22 13 10 13 13 11 12 11 14 13 30 16 9 9 11 12 26 15 20 33 11 15 15 16 10 11 23 25 16 13 17 17 34 34 14 9

Sile
24-11-14, 02:53
info about parker........no match for last 4000 years

22921 Timothy W. Parker, b.c. 1780-90, England England T-L131
13 22 13 10 13-13 11 12 11 14 13 29 15 9-9 11 12 28 15 19 34 11-11-15-16-17 11 11 23-24 16 13 18 18 34-36 12 9 11 8 17-17 8 11 10 8 12 11 12 20-20 17 10 12 12 18 8 11 27 21 14 11 12 14 11 11 12 11
for its DYS385=13-13, but also here irregularities in DYS464, where you had a RecLOH probably from 11-11-15-16 to 11-11-11-11 (and when you find another person with these values he will be the closest to you) and distant values: your DYS537=12 from 11 may be worth also 4000/6000 years

Sile
24-11-14, 02:59
N78475 Puiatti Friuli T-M70
13 23 14 11 14-16 11 12 11 13 13 29 16 8-9 11 12 24 14 19 35 11-11-16-16 11 10 22-24 18 13 18 16 35-35 12 9 11 8 17-17 8 11 10 8 10 9 12 20-20 17 10 12 10 16 8 11 28 20 14 11 12 13 10 11 12 11

The DYS390=23 is unusual if he really has CTS8862

Huracan
24-11-14, 03:29
Is there a reason why you chose Heald and Chandler's method? Because I am now averaging Nordtvedt and Chandler vs Heald and Chandler, but if I should consider just Heald and Chandler that would make it easier.

Sile
24-11-14, 04:06
Is there a reason why you chose Heald and Chandler's method? Because I am now averaging Nordtvedt and Chandler vs Heald and Chandler, but if I should consider just Heald and Chandler that would make it easier.

let me know which one you want and I will follow suit

Sile
24-11-14, 04:08
Is Vernon Jones also CTS8862+?

I am checking about this.........

I also found out the Muller in brazil is the same family as Miller in England...both a german descent

Huracan
24-11-14, 04:09
After reviewing and reevaluating, I decided to best consider Heald's and Chandler's method w/o CDY and 464 since Nordtvedt and Chandler's consistently underestimated the TMRCA. Below is the new data:

L131 (13,800 years ago) [From Mendez et al., 2011]
-L446 (10,500 years ago)
--CTS11984 (5,200 years ago)
---CTS8862 (2,900 years ago)
---PS11 (800 years ago)
-P322 (6,500 years ago)

Sile
24-11-14, 09:53
After reviewing and reevaluating, I decided to best consider Heald's and Chandler's method w/o CDY and 464 since Nordtvedt and Chandler's consistently underestimated the TMRCA. Below is the new data:

L131 (13,800 years ago) [From Mendez et al., 2011]
-L446 (10,500 years ago)
--CTS11984 (5,200 years ago)
---CTS8862 (2,900 years ago)
---PS11 (800 years ago)
-P322 (6,500 years ago)

looks good

You know P322 can never have CTS8862 ..............well all 100% for far are negative CTS8862

here is the other CTS8862.........seems like another knox or mason
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/knoxsurname/default.aspx?section=yresults

Huracan
25-11-14, 01:38
Yes CTS8862 is a subclade of CTS11984 and itself a subclade of L446. They are not descendant of P322.

Looking at that Knox page, it appears there is a whole line of Knox's that appear to be CTS8862, for all of those in the same cluster have STRs almost exactly the same as the confirmed CTS8862 Knox. In that case, CTS8862 has a specific presence in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Also, since CTS11984, CTS8862, and PS11 are only found in Europe, but not in the Middle East as L446 and P322 are, suggests a post-Neolithic origin and distribution, which is corroborated by their respective predicted ages. I will continue to look into any possible population links, as the Jewish theory may be less likely due to the increased ages after reevaluation.

Sile
25-11-14, 04:36
Yes CTS8862 is a subclade of CTS11984 and itself a subclade of L446. They are not descendant of P322.

Looking at that Knox page, it appears there is a whole line of Knox's that appear to be CTS8862, for all of those in the same cluster have STRs almost exactly the same as the confirmed CTS8862 Knox. In that case, CTS8862 has a specific presence in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Also, since CTS11984, CTS8862, and PS11 are only found in Europe, but not in the Middle East as L446 and P322 are, suggests a post-Neolithic origin and distribution, which is corroborated by their respective predicted ages. I will continue to look into any possible population links, as the Jewish theory may be less likely due to the increased ages after reevaluation.

ok on above

The Knox person ( kit# 180193) which has CTS8862 is called the Samuel line
below is the Knox petigree fro T1


John Knox


BORN
1708, Scotland


MARRIED
Jean Gracey (http://www.jimgracey.net/jcgracey.html#JG), 1730 Coleraine, Ireland


CHILDREN


(M) William b. 1736 IRELAND d. 19JUL1776 NC
(M) Absalom b. 1738 IRELAND d. 1808 OH
(M) John b. 1739 IRELAND d. 1802 NC
(F) Mary b. 31JUL1742 NC d. 1823 NC
(M) Samuel b. 1JAN1746 IRELAND d. 11FEB1837 GA
(M) Joseph b. DEC1747 IRELAND d. 02MAR1836 TN
(M) James (http://www.jimgracey.net/knox.html#CJK) b. 1752 NC d. 10OCT1794 NC
(M) Benjamin b. 10APR1759 NC d. 27FEB1842 Rowan Co., NC




DIED
12OCT1758 Rowan County, North Carolina


SOURCES
E. Boehms Skelley (Note 1) (http://www.jimgracey.net/knox.html#NOTE1) , Find A Grave (Note 2) (http://www.jimgracey.net/knox.html#NOTE2) , RootsWeb (Note 3) (http://www.jimgracey.net/knox.html#NOTE3)



#5 is the samuel ..............Born Ireland and died in Geogia USA

180193 John Knox, b. 1708, d. 1758 Rowan Co NC (Samuel Line)

Sile
25-11-14, 04:47
the kit numbers



106591
Probably born as "Knox" & adopted as "Mason"


227727
Thomas Knox, d. 1796 Syssex Co DE (http://knoxsociety.org/227727.htm)


58636
Reddick Knox, b.1791, Pitt Co. NC


124565
John Knox, b. 1708, d. 1758 Rowan Co NC (Joseph Line)


180193
John Knox, b. 1708, d. 1758 Rowan Co NC (Samuel Line)


185534
John Knox, b. 1708, d. 1758 Rowan Co NC (Benjamin Line)


79785
Levi Knox, b. 1791, Delaware (http://knoxsociety.org/75785_levi_knox.htm)


167670
John Knox, b. ca 1785, NC; d. 1840-1850 Lincoln Co, GA (http://knoxsociety.org/Descendants%20of%20John%20Knox%20who%20m%20Nancy%2 0Griffin.pdf)


33644
John Knox, b.ca. 1759, Strabane, Ulster, Ireland




Seems like its an old Gaelic/Celtic/Argyll line

Huracan
26-11-14, 05:39
Didn't kit # 124565 state that his earliest paternal ancestor was William Knox born ca. 1510 in Haddington?

But yes, I agree, although I was researching the history of the Scots and Irish and although both are Gaelic, depending on where this Knox line originated, it could have been Pictish too, since they were the inhabitants of Scotland back then.

I inputted their haplotypes and their common ancestor lived 10 generations ago or approx. 305 years. The problem is, what year or individual do I use as a reference point? Would those 305 years be from the present (i.e. 2014-305)?

Sile
02-12-14, 19:23
found this from Morley on his study of T - CTS8862

I see that CTS8862 was tested on the Geno chip, but it doesn't appear in my latest Geno-based report, and I haven't looked at the Geno 2.0 dataset in several months.
However, I have done a similar analysis (unreleased) on Chromo2 data. That report puts CTS8862 at the "T1a2b~2" level. Below L446, and approximately phyloequivalent to CTS3767, CTS9984 and CTS11984 (and three other markers that recur elsewhere in the tree). I have 18 candidate markers "between T1a-L131 and T1a2b-L446" (the dataset lacks representation from T1a2a-P322). There are 7 S-series markers at the "T1a2b~1" level, and a further 7 at the "T1a2b~1~1" level. Granted, these clades are based on only one sample per clade.

These are my positive s-series
S27238+, S137+, S27574+, S138+, S27644+, S27554+, S27681+, S27568+, S27128+, S27531+, S27605+, S27247+, S26596+, S2041+, S27445+, S27774+

Huracan
03-12-14, 05:20
Interesting, so CTS11984, CTS8862, and CTS9984 are possibly at the same level? I could re-run some of the TMRCA calculations I have been doing to see what the significance of that might be.

And how did you find out this s-series?

Sile
03-12-14, 07:39
Interesting, so CTS11984, CTS8862, and CTS9984 are possibly at the same level? I could re-run some of the TMRCA calculations I have been doing to see what the significance of that might be.

And how did you find out this s-series?

I cannot remember who ran my sample and sent me my s-series ( I will need to consult my notes )...but they did find me eventually postive for basal M184 , but also found me negative for basal M193.

did you try this below ..............I put mine in yesterday .......not ready yet

http://daver.info/ysub/

Huracan
04-12-14, 18:13
I cannot remember who ran my sample and sent me my s-series ( I will need to consult my notes )...but they did find me eventually postive for basal M184 , but also found me negative for basal M193.

did you try this below ..............I put mine in yesterday .......not ready yet

http://daver.info/ysub/

I had submitted my Geno 2.0 info to him around Feb/March of this year. My information is currently in his files, check his Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/Geno20YdnaSnpComparison?ref=br_tf

Sile
04-12-14, 20:15
I had submitted my Geno 2.0 info to him around Feb/March of this year. My information is currently in his files, check his Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/Geno20YdnaSnpComparison?ref=br_tf

he does not use the spreadsheet anymore?

Huracan
06-12-14, 18:24
Yes he does! He compiles the results and info individuals send to him and he displays it in an attached spreadsheet

Huracan
14-12-14, 01:26
N78475 Puiatti Friuli T-M70
13 23 14 11 14-16 11 12 11 13 13 29 16 8-9 11 12 24 14 19 35 11-11-16-16 11 10 22-24 18 13 18 16 35-35 12 9 11 8 17-17 8 11 10 8 10 9 12 20-20 17 10 12 10 16 8 11 28 20 14 11 12 13 10 11 12 11

The DYS390=23 is unusual if he really has CTS8862

Is it confirmed that Friuli is CTS8862+?

Sile
14-12-14, 18:51
Is it confirmed that Friuli is CTS8862+?

I do not know until Adriano does my results ........have you seen them?

You can compare yours with Puiatti ............I saw your name, but results for you are all stated as ?

maybe you got them privately.............but Puiatti is in Friuli, in an area where Italians state Carnielo people ( ancient Carni tribe ) live.........Italians still use the phrase for the area in question, basically the friulian alps, East of the Ladini people.

Huracan
16-12-14, 02:58
I do not know until Adriano does my results ........have you seen them?

You can compare yours with Puiatti ............I saw your name, but results for you are all stated as ?

maybe you got them privately.............but Puiatti is in Friuli, in an area where Italians state Carnielo people ( ancient Carni tribe ) live.........Italians still use the phrase for the area in question, basically the friulian alps, East of the Ladini people.

I downloaded Adriano's 23andMe's results and I saw Puiatti's but not your's yet. On the Geno set of results, not all are listed as "?" just for certain markers...I do have "+" for some. I'll look at them with more detail later.

The Carni were either Gaulish (Celtic) or Venetic, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carni. Evidence continues to suggest a possible Indo-European connection to CTS8862 and CTS11984.

Sile
16-12-14, 07:28
I downloaded Adriano's 23andMe's results and I saw Puiatti's but not your's yet. On the Geno set of results, not all are listed as "?" just for certain markers...I do have "+" for some. I'll look at them with more detail later.

The Carni were either Gaulish (Celtic) or Venetic, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carni. Evidence continues to suggest a possible Indo-European connection to CTS8862 and CTS11984.

Italian historians claim the Carni tribe ALWAYS lived in the central austrian alps.
English historians claim the Carni came from Northern Gascon area of South west france .........maybe Bordeaux

Huracan
17-12-14, 00:59
That means they are most definitely Celtic. Although we cannot state for certain that Puiatti descends from the Carni there is a possibility. Recent TMRCA calculations of mine continues to support a maybe even Celtic or at least Indo-European origin for CTS8862 and maybe even CTS11984. The current geographic ranges of CTS8862+ and CTS11984+ as well as the dates of our common ancestors (around 3,000 years ago, c. 1000 BCE) seem to coincide with their expansion events from Central Europe... Nevertheless, TMRCA estimates between us in the CTS8862 clade give a common ancestry only some 1,000+ years ago, which may hint at a Germanic connection. It's too early to tell for certain until we get more confirmed CTS8862+ and CTS11984+ individuals and their STR data.

Sile
17-12-14, 06:47
That means they are most definitely Celtic. Although we cannot state for certain that Puiatti descends from the Carni there is a possibility. Recent TMRCA calculations of mine continues to support a maybe even Celtic or at least Indo-European origin for CTS8862 and maybe even CTS11984. The current geographic ranges of CTS8862+ and CTS11984+ as well as the dates of our common ancestors (around 3,000 years ago, c. 1000 BCE) seem to coincide with their expansion events from Central Europe... Nevertheless, TMRCA estimates between us in the CTS8862 clade give a common ancestry only some 1,000+ years ago, which may hint at a Germanic connection. It's too early to tell for certain until we get more confirmed CTS8862+ and CTS11984+ individuals and their STR data.

agreed

maybe natgeno2 was correct in saying south german area

isatis
29-01-15, 20:29
plz delete post

Huracan
02-02-15, 04:49
Hello isatis,

If by "twin" you mean to delete this post because it is the same as the one started by user rene and the one you most recently commented on, then you are mistaken because this post is different. This post most relates to T-L446 and its subclades, as another user and I have been discussing for a year now. Also, I am not aware if regular members can delete posts. That might be in the power of administrators.

-KFundora

Sile
23-02-15, 07:22
interesting about T

T1a M70/Pages46/PF5662 found in M70+ men but undetermined if more precisely at M193 or M184 levels

The catalan tests , tested for only Pages46 and PF5662 which gives it the usual M70, ............it seems there might beanother split for T1a
ones with M184+ and M193+ in one group
and
others with M184+ and M193- in another group....................I am this one

Both would have M184+ and M70+

Huracan
27-02-15, 04:55
I thought you had said earlier that you were M184- as am I. We're both M272+. According to my results, I don't have M193 either.

Also, the 3.5 version of YFull's tree now provides TMRCAs for all the branches of T (and likely all other haplogroups) except for our clades: T-L446 and below.

Richard Serra
27-02-15, 23:19
Introducing myself, I have my Y Group T-Z710 (M70, L299) - Maternal is J1d1b1. I'm curious as to any Sephardic connections. My last name is Serra, but is rumored to be originally, on the paternal side, Gabriel. This opened up a whole new interest in origins. Any help with research papers, sources, advice, etc. is sincerely appreciated.

Richard Serra
27-02-15, 23:23
I also need help deciphering the CTS, etc. numbers. Research papers and sources are appreciated.

Sile
28-02-15, 01:55
I thought you had said earlier that you were M184- as am I. We're both M272+. According to my results, I don't have M193 either.

Also, the 3.5 version of YFull's tree now provides TMRCAs for all the branches of T (and likely all other haplogroups) except for our clades: T-L446 and below.

correct, I had mine done at natgeno and send them under C.Morley ..I do have M184+ , but confirmed M193-..........it seems ftdna assume we all have M184+ because we are T , but they do not test it.
so...in ftdna it says neither + or - for M184

have you done 23andme .....if so, get felix programs which converts all your 23andme numbers into positive or negative SNP's.........private email me if you have problems

below are all my SNP ...up to L446...green confirmed positive...red confirmed negative....others untested

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/comboSNPs_zps25fe1847.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/comboSNPs_zps25fe1847.jpg.html)

Sile
28-02-15, 01:58
Introducing myself, I have my Y Group T-Z710 (M70, L299) - Maternal is J1d1b1. I'm curious as to any Sephardic connections. My last name is Serra, but is rumored to be originally, on the paternal side, Gabriel. This opened up a whole new interest in origins. Any help with research papers, sources, advice, etc. is sincerely appreciated.

hi,

where you from in Italy , only gabriel is in italian riviera ......unless the surname is misspelt

Huracan
03-05-15, 08:30
Sile, I recently checked on the Y-DNA T composite tree that you linked a while back that was updated 28 Apr 2015. https://sites.google.com/site/compositeytree/t

They for some reason updated the information for the dating of T-CTS8862 and 2 of its subclades! They state CTS8862 originated 4,500 years ago! Very recent!!

Sile
03-05-15, 11:43
Sile, I recently checked on the Y-DNA T composite tree that you linked a while back that was updated 28 Apr 2015. https://sites.google.com/site/compositeytree/t

They for some reason updated the information for the dating of T-CTS8862 and 2 of its subclades! They state CTS8862 originated 4,500 years ago! Very recent!!

thanks , so 2485BC or also noted as

2700–2200: EBA III ..................Early bronze-age 3 by archaeologists


You will also note, that we IIRC are both negative in the SNP's for the branches downstream from CTS8862.
We sit at this spot

I received a note from T project manager Gareth.

I have done a bit more restructuring and have rearranged the groups so that all the most likely CTS8862 clusters are next to each other. Unfortunately, of all the names you mentioned, only Kevin Fundora has a confirmed CTS8862+ result. The genetic distance widens at 37 markers (matches at 12 markers aren't always an indicator of a close relationship). I will try to contact some of the others over the weekend.

Until we get more CTS8862+ results there isn't much for you to do except wait


I also discussed the DYS390=22 complex
this site below has tested only 67markers or more markers and all , are European ( or USA ) except 1 "Anatolian turk "

http://www.semargl.me/haplogroups/maps/600/

I also scanned all the ftdna T project for this #22 and again found all european except 1 in Anatolia .
All are North European , except the Italian ones.

I suspect this number 22 was German in origin and settled in britain , it also went to Italy. The strange thing is , you are the only one from Iberia with this DYS390=22 that I have found.


The site I linked using 67 markers ............still gives me links with the italian with surname Da Lessio ( ftdna tested who will not join the project ) and a new one kit# 194479 German with name Daniel Hof circa 1610- 1663

Huracan
03-05-15, 16:16
Yes 2485 BCE is consistent with Early Bronze Age Europe especially the Corded Ware culture of Central Europe, for which I am researching to see a link.

Of all the subclades of CTS8862 I could not find any positive SNPs in my raw data that placed me more downstream so we stay at this node. Before we had mentioned the interesting nature of the DYS390=22 for the individuals in our clade and I see its significance and I agree, it must have appeared in Germany or somewhere in Central Europe in association with the appearance of the CTS8862 SNP and then spread outward especially to the British Isles and Italy where our clade seems most prevalent. I may be the only Iberian with DYS390=22 so far. YFull has a Spaniard and Puerto Rican as being CTS8862 equivalent but may belong to the downstream T1a2b1a3 and T1a2b1a4 subclades marked in the composite tree as "Iberians" and "Hispanics" and we do not have their SNPs available.

Huracan
03-05-15, 17:15
On SMGF, 5 of my top matches for the maximum SNPs I could compare on the site had DYS390=22:

Martins (Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil)
Lippi (Arezzo, Italy)
Dell Plain [Plain] (NY, USA)
Deakin (Warwickshire, England)
Miller [Mueller] (Hesse, Germany)


On Ysearch:

Frush (MD, USA)
Frush [Froschauer] (Germany)
Russo (Naples, Italy)
Carvalho [Pinto] (São Paulo, Brazil)
Madrigal (Madrid, Spain)
Atwell (VA, USA)
Owens (VA, USA)
Sizemore (VA, USA)
Stockdell (VA, USA)
McKee (SC, USA)
Mitchell (NC, USA)
Hill (GA, USA)
Powell (VA, USA)
Fakes (England?)
Milligan (NC, USA)
Rodríguez (Puerto Rico)
Riols (Riols, France)
Rossi (Alvignano, Italy)
Santagata (Molise, Italy)

as well as the other confirmed CTS8862+ and several individuals with the same surnames as above

I will analyze the Hispanic and Brazilian individuals in terms of TMRCA to see any connections.

Sile
03-05-15, 20:16
On SMGF, 5 of my top matches for the maximum SNPs I could compare on the site had DYS390=22:

Martins (Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil)
Lippi (Arezzo, Italy)
Dell Plain [Plain] (NY, USA)
Deakin (Warwickshire, England)
Miller [Mueller] (Hesse, Germany)


On Ysearch:

Frush (MD, USA)
Frush [Froschauer] (Germany)
Russo (Naples, Italy)
Carvalho [Pinto] (São Paulo, Brazil)
Madrigal (Madrid, Spain)
Atwell (VA, USA)
Owens (VA, USA)
Sizemore (VA, USA)
Stockdell (VA, USA)
McKee (SC, USA)
Mitchell (NC, USA)
Hill (GA, USA)
Powell (VA, USA)
Fakes (England?)
Milligan (NC, USA)
Rodríguez (Puerto Rico)
Riols (Riols, France)
Rossi (Alvignano, Italy)
Santagata (Molise, Italy)

as well as the other confirmed CTS8862+ and several individuals with the same surnames as above

I will analyze the Hispanic and Brazilian individuals in terms of TMRCA to see any connections.


Are all these on ysearch CTS8862+ confirmed?

DaLessio is also confirmed as CTS8862+ in Ftdna ............the name is Da Lessio ( or Lessio as Da is meaning of from ) ..........Americanisation always joins these ( poor fellows ) into one surname ...............I explained in previous posts this dalessio who migrated to USA in previous posts

anyway, this Lessio is a relative of mine ......original birth document below:
States: Department of Tagliamento province of Treviso, Canton of Treviso, community of Treviso, District of Lancenigo on the 7th of February 1806 , etce etc..Giovanni Lessio 31 years old had a daughter he named Maria ..............mothe rof daughter is Catterina Vettori
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/marialessio_zps7f6b8be1.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/marialessio_zps7f6b8be1.jpg.html)
I might be wrong if this dalessio was originally spelled D'Alessio ..........then I have no link



And below, Natgeno is the only people that have predicted my ydna and mtdna

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/natgenonew_zps3ff4a8c9.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/natgenonew_zps3ff4a8c9.jpg.html)



BTW, I was given another who I am related to , from Italy, Marche region from town called genga

Piangerelli from Genga, Italy kit# 8JJY7
Have you anything on this person?

I do see on ysearch, he is the only person which matches my DYS464 at 11-11-11-11 ................but from what I read DYS464 is usually part of an option to be excluded in search sites

Huracan
04-05-15, 06:33
None of those were CTS8862+ then again many individuals don't update their Y-DNA info even when SNPs and branches are revised. So as of now, those were just DYS390=22 but we are not sure if they are part of our clade.

Are all these new individuals you're finding that you are related to CTS8862+??

Do you have a "story" on Nat Geno?? Because I do and I am not sure if I see yours. The two users closest to me are claremontbirdman (CTS11984+, CTS8862-) and robazza (CTS11984+, CTS8862?) but Nat Geno grouped us with other individuals with stories that are of subclades of T1a1 branches for some odd reason.

Sile
04-05-15, 08:07
None of those were CTS8862+ then again many individuals don't update their Y-DNA info even when SNPs and branches are revised. So as of now, those were just DYS390=22 but we are not sure if they are part of our clade.

Are all these new individuals you're finding that you are related to CTS8862+??

Do you have a "story" on Nat Geno?? Because I do and I am not sure if I see yours. The two users closest to me are claremontbirdman (CTS11984+, CTS8862-) and robazza (CTS11984+, CTS8862?) but Nat Geno grouped us with other individuals with stories that are of subclades of T1a1 branches for some odd reason.


My son put the story on Nat geno for me using our sopranomme of Robazza ............sopranomme is a name used when many families in a town had the same surname , so we have very very old birth and marriage certificates for my family line that has after my surname it has " detto Robazza" ( detto means some say ) . This system is done in a very high percentage in North-East Italy ( unsure about other parts of Italy )
Robazza for my part was a line of my family line was attached via a maternal part of my paternal side in the 18th century...................the oldest I found for Robazza surname proper is that they where merchants in Venice in 1345.


I am unsure if the 2 new individuals , Hof and Piengerelli have CTS8862 ..............but both are zero GD from me, but so is your Martin, Lippi and Miller ( mueller )...BTW, Lippi comes from Brescia originally ( east Lombard )

Huracan
04-05-15, 20:08
Oh I see, so you were Robazza all along... we are the only CTS8862+ in Nat Geno that have a story.

Hof and Piengerelli are at 0 GD for how many markers? 67?

I did the comparisons to other Iberians who were DYS390=22 and possibly CTS8862+ and I noticed that the Spaniard-Hispanics were most distant from me, followed by Portuguese-Brazilians, and then an Azorean with a Galician surname. The TMRCAs are of course relative and can change depending on the reference but this seems to suggest a Galician origin for my paternal line.

SMGF matches (DYS390=22, all)
MARTINS #1 (Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil) – 24/26, 434 years (ca. 1561)
MARTINS #2 (Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil) – 23/26, 651 years (ca. 1344)

Ysearch matches (DYS390=22, all)
MADRIGAL (Madrid, Spain) – 25/37, 990 years (ca. 1005)
RODRÍGUEZ (Puerto Rico) – 24/37, 1,080 years (ca. 915)
CARVALHO (PINTO São Paulo, Brazil) – 29/37, 690 years (ca. 1305)

FTDNA matches (DYS390=22[?], all)
LEMAS (Azores, Portugal) – 33/37, 360 years (ca. 1635)

I will look into the other individuals with which we match and see how distantly we are all related. This way, I can attempt to associate geographically the possible migratory paths of our branch and when it occurred. Because TMRCA for STRs is different than for SNPs.

Sile
04-05-15, 20:29
I will look forward to it

Pingerelli is 67 marker tested

and hof is 37 marker tested..........below is his ysearch ID
FQX7R

he is DYS390=22


this family must have tested another member , this is the other ysearch ID
Z9PTC

Huracan
06-05-15, 05:15
But Piangerelli is not DYS390=22, he is 23...

I used all the DYS390=22 individuals who were matches to the main 5 CTS8862+ (you, I, Knox, Dalessio, and Schales). I made a tree using McGee's Y-Utility, PHYLIP data, and Kitsch.exe:
7217

This can serve as a tentative DYS390=22/CTS8662 tree but I will do one for just the confirmed CTS8862 individuals

Sile
06-05-15, 09:22
But Piangerelli is not DYS390=22, he is 23...

correct, so I do not know why I match this person from this "expert"



I used all the DYS390=22 individuals who were matches to the main 5 CTS8862+ (you, I, Knox, Dalessio, and Schales). I made a tree using McGee's Y-Utility, PHYLIP data, and Kitsch.exe:
7217

This can serve as a tentative DYS390=22/CTS8662 tree but I will do one for just the confirmed CTS8862 individuals


ok

You have all the CTS8862 I was given by this "expert" except Piangerelli


where is Riols from?..................I have a riols in Ftdna matches who is from an island off Atlantic France near the region of Vendee.


Cna you add Daniel Hof , he is DYS390=22

Huracan
06-05-15, 18:20
Riols' info from Ysearch (U34WX) states earliest paternal ancestor in Riols, Hérault, Languedoc-Roussillon, France about 1450. The surname info provided also mentions de Fonclare and that is also the name of the testee/contact person... so I believe the real surname might be de Fonclare and not Riols.

I didn't include Hof because he was missing DYS389ii but all of us have 30 for that STR so I will substitute that for his missing STR and include him in the next one as I finalize the relations.

Huracan
06-05-15, 18:22
Here is just the confirmed CTS8862+ including Puiatti (DYS390=23) which was stated to be CTS8862+

7218

I tried using Mike Maglio's biogeographical multilateration method that he devised to try and devise a migration pattern for our branch but his method assumes Neolithic or at least ancient migration intervals of 1 km/yr and seems to work for most scenarios he has encountered. Except that these scenarios included more common and well-known haplogroups like I and G and included individuals that were close matches and most of the CTS8862 branch is distantly related.
originhunters.blogspot.com/2014/01/getting-more-from-your-genetic-testing.html

Sile
06-05-15, 20:44
Here is just the confirmed CTS8862+ including Puiatti (DYS390=23) which was stated to be CTS8862+

7218

I tried using Mike Maglio's biogeographical multilateration method that he devised to try and devise a migration pattern for our branch but his method assumes Neolithic or at least ancient migration intervals of 1 km/yr and seems to work for most scenarios he has encountered. Except that these scenarios included more common and well-known haplogroups like I and G and included individuals that were close matches and most of the CTS8862 branch is distantly related.
originhunters.blogspot.com/2014/01/getting-more-from-your-genetic-testing.html


Puiatti is a friulian/ladin person , IIRC what squecco told me

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladin_people


I am surprised you are closer to dalessio than myself, yet dalessio is number 3 on my matches and schales is number 11 ( all zero GD with me )

BTW.....Schales has a book on his family history in the USA

Huracan
06-05-15, 22:27
Where and how can I access Schales' family history information? It would help in pinpointing one more paternal origin for our branch.

Sile
07-05-15, 07:44
Where and how can I access Schales' family history information? It would help in pinpointing one more paternal origin for our branch.

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=mChPAAAAMAAJ&q=enoch+dewey+schales&dq=enoch+dewey+schales&hl=en&sa=X&ei=koJKVcrMDcezmwXzz4HYBw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA

check my post #166 .............it states the same guy and the link I mentioned.


same family furthe back in time
http://www.myheritage.com/names/heinrich_schales

before 1750 , their surname was Schullus


The only link I can see so far for me is a marriage with a MOSER
807 moser surnames in Italy.

682 (http://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-cognomi-italiani/MOSER/TRENTINO-ALTO-ADIGE) Trentino A.A. (http://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-cognomi-italiani/MOSER/TRENTINO-ALTO-ADIGE)
39 Veneto (http://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-cognomi-italiani/MOSER/VENETO)
22 (http://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-cognomi-italiani/MOSER/LOMBARDIA) Lombardia

In Italy they state Moser is German
(http://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-cognomi-italiani/MOSER/LOMBARDIA)Surname meaning for "Moser"
South German: topographic name for someone who lived near a peat bog, Middle High German mos

Found In ULM


Back to Schales.........the German origin is in Hesse and the older origin is in Pfalz
(http://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-cognomi-italiani/MOSER/LOMBARDIA)

Sile
15-06-15, 09:01
@Fundora

Another CTS8862 as stated by project manager on W/E................with DYS390=22 ............Kit#386660

his STR in one of the other posts

http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.northam.usa.states.southcarolina.counti es.fairfield/180.37.38.1273.1274.1277.1/mb.ashx

Huracan
17-06-15, 00:48
Were they confirmed CTS8862 or just DYS390=22? Because T-CTS11984* individuals are also DYS390=22 (i.e. Espinoza from Nat Geno/Ysearch), unless they may have been upgraded to CTS8862...

I am currently analyzing only the confirmed and predicted CTS8862 from the T FTDNA Project (21 individuals) to best interpret and predict our migrational history and connections. On Ysearch they may match but I do not know if they are CTS8862 or not. Anyways, if they still match with the slowest STRs, they should fit into the tree the same as they did in my previous ones that took into account all the STRs. I even did one for those 10 that tested 67 markers, which should be more accurate.

Sile
17-06-15, 11:39
Were they confirmed CTS8862 or just DYS390=22? Because T-CTS11984* individuals are also DYS390=22 (i.e. Espinoza from Nat Geno/Ysearch), unless they may have been upgraded to CTS8862...

I am currently analyzing only the confirmed and predicted CTS8862 from the T FTDNA Project (21 individuals) to best interpret and predict our migrational history and connections. On Ysearch they may match but I do not know if they are CTS8862 or not. Anyways, if they still match with the slowest STRs, they should fit into the tree the same as they did in my previous ones that took into account all the STRs. I even did one for those 10 that tested 67 markers, which should be more accurate.

yes confirmed CTS8862 with DYS390=22

will send you info privately to what the project stated

Huracan
17-06-15, 15:27
I will include them in my revamped analysis of CTS8862. But the one I did yesterday using the slowest STRs and the ones Y-Utility includes (especially in the 67 set) showed a TMRCA for our clade at around 4,500 years ago just like Banks' tree shows. Of course it shows highly increased values in regards to the TMRCA of smaller subgroupings such as Knox and other individuals of shared surnames but it appears more accurate and realistic. The 67 tree shows some interesting results as well. Here they are:
7306
This is the 37 marker one and the values are in generations. Multiply them by 2 to get the actual generational distance and then I multiplied that by 25 and 30 for a possible range in years.

Here is the 67 one:
7307

Huracan
17-06-15, 15:28
There appears to be distinct Ashkenazi Jewish cluster within our clade but it most likely is the result of an early convert to Judaism because the rest of our clade has no history of Jewish tradition.

Sile
17-06-15, 20:26
I will include them in my revamped analysis of CTS8862. But the one I did yesterday using the slowest STRs and the ones Y-Utility includes (especially in the 67 set) showed a TMRCA for our clade at around 4,500 years ago just like Banks' tree shows. Of course it shows highly increased values in regards to the TMRCA of smaller subgroupings such as Knox and other individuals of shared surnames but it appears more accurate and realistic. The 67 tree shows some interesting results as well. Here they are:
7306
This is the 37 marker one and the values are in generations. Multiply them by 2 to get the actual generational distance and then I multiplied that by 25 and 30 for a possible range in years.

Here is the 67 one:
7307

The project manager believes that CTS8862 was slightly younger than 4500 ....more like 4000

Sile
17-06-15, 20:32
I will include them in my revamped analysis of CTS8862. But the one I did yesterday using the slowest STRs and the ones Y-Utility includes (especially in the 67 set) showed a TMRCA for our clade at around 4,500 years ago just like Banks' tree shows. Of course it shows highly increased values in regards to the TMRCA of smaller subgroupings such as Knox and other individuals of shared surnames but it appears more accurate and realistic. The 67 tree shows some interesting results as well. Here they are:
7306
This is the 37 marker one and the values are in generations. Multiply them by 2 to get the actual generational distance and then I multiplied that by 25 and 30 for a possible range in years.

Here is the 67 one:
7307

in your 37 marker chart, it seems odd that I am distant from many of my zero genetic distance FTDNA people of:

Hill
HillSC
Fundora
Schales
Jones
D'Alessio

Sile
17-06-15, 20:34
There appears to be distinct Ashkenazi Jewish cluster within our clade but it most likely is the result of an early convert to Judaism because the rest of our clade has no history of Jewish tradition.

interesting

my tests show
Ftdna = zero ashkenazi
23andme = 0.3% ashkenazi ....................but phasing indicates not paternal, so it a woman who married into my paternal line

Huracan
23-06-15, 20:37
Sile remember,

Those were your 12 or 25 marker comparison, not your 37. So at 37 markers they will appear much more distant because more markers are taken into account

Huracan
23-06-15, 20:38
interesting

my tests show
Ftdna = zero ashkenazi
23andme = 0.3% ashkenazi ....................but phasing indicates not paternal, so it a woman who married into my paternal line

Even if our clade was Ashkenazi, given our geographic and genetic distance our "Ashkenazi Jewish" admixture would have disappeared a long time ago. But our clade is not Ashkenazi.

Sile
23-06-15, 21:06
Even if our clade was Ashkenazi, given our geographic and genetic distance our "Ashkenazi Jewish" admixture would have disappeared a long time ago. But our clade is not Ashkenazi.

thanks


BTW, on other T thread , Samaniego states he is also L446 ( from Spain )

wonder if Samaniego is made up name , because, ego endings on surnames are western Veneto ( Verona , Vicenza) while igo endings are in Eastern Veneto ( Venice and Padua )

Martinego ( vicenza )

Barbarigo ( venice )

Huracan
30-06-15, 23:05
Yes, I noticed and I responded to him to help. Samaniego is a surname emanating from Álava, a province of the Basque Country where his paternal line originates and it was adopted as a surname after the town named Samaniego in Álava. So it is most certainly an Iberian surname and makes the origin and spread of L446 and its downstream clades more intriguing.

Sile
07-07-15, 08:57
T12b1a CTS8489(18050535 G->A ) or CTS8862(18246590 G->T) 4.5 KY

• ••••••T1a2b1a1 L25/PF5345/S399 (19136822 T->C)FTDNA subgroup

• ••••••T1a2b1a2 Pages113(2713589 G->A)orS17120 (15426389 A->C )

• ••••••T1a2b1a3 Z33764 (7247507 C->T) Iberians 2.7 KY

• ••••••T1a2b1a4 CTS1080 (7187436 T->C) Hispanics 2.7 KY

• •••••T12b1b Pages11(14496103 C->T) FTDNA subgroup

My results
Green positive tested
Red negative tested
Lilac untested

Sile
27-08-15, 21:29
@ fundora

I just received another zero GD with me , he is


Timothy Brennan who is CTS8862 and tested up to 67 markers

Huracan
29-08-15, 04:57
Sile,

Yes I got the same notification. He is 0 distance away from me at 12 markers but not beyond that. His surname suggests an Irish patrilineal ancestry, consistent with my refined Y-STR phylogenetic analysis pointing to a possible Italo-Celtic distribution of our line. It might correspond to the Hallstatt dispersal and be a minor paternal lineage brought by the Celts to Iberia, the British Isles, and the rest of Western and Northern Europe as well as the Italics into Italy.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#S28-U152

Sile
29-08-15, 06:36
Sile,

Yes I got the same notification. He is 0 distance away from me at 12 markers but not beyond that. His surname suggests an Irish patrilineal ancestry, consistent with my refined Y-STR phylogenetic analysis pointing to a possible Italo-Celtic distribution of our line. It might correspond to the Hallstatt dispersal and be a minor paternal lineage brought by the Celts to Iberia, the British Isles, and the rest of Western and Northern Europe as well as the Italics into Italy.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#S28-U152

Brennan comes in at 25 markers for me and is placed as a german in ancestral origins section

Huracan
30-08-15, 00:43
Brennan comes in at 25 markers for me and is placed as a german in ancestral origins section

Oh interesting... since his terminal SNP is CTS8862 and still is quite close to you at 25 markers he would be a good addition to my TMRCA calculations. Interesting that on his ancestral origins section he is listed as German, perhaps the Brennan surname was changed from a prior German one or there was an instance of non-paternity along the line.

Sile
17-10-15, 11:38
Oh interesting... since his terminal SNP is CTS8862 and still is quite close to you at 25 markers he would be a good addition to my TMRCA calculations. Interesting that on his ancestral origins section he is listed as German, perhaps the Brennan surname was changed from a prior German one or there was an instance of non-paternity along the line.

@fundora

Latest information from the T project team

The next update to the YFull tree will have estimates for the TMRCAs for T-CTS54/T-CTS11984 and T-CTS8489/T-CTS8862, thanks to data submitted by two T Project members who have tested Big Y. The two testees are related within the last 300-500 years and several new SNPs will be added to the tree to define a new branch below T-CTS8489.
My predictions for YFull's estimates:
T-CTS54/T-CTS11984 3,500 ybp i.e. 1,500 BC
T-CTS8489/T-CTS8862 2,500 ybp i.e. 500 BC
There are also two more Big Y tests in progress for T-L131 kits (both probably T-L446 and one possibly T-CTS54).
I'll report back here when the results are in.


Edit- Yfull tree came in with 2200ybp for CTS862

Edit- Yfull tree came in with 2200ybp for CTS862

since ybp = 1950 then the range of CTS8862 is .........formed 950BC and the TMRCA is 350BC

T-L131 (http://www.yfull.com/tree/T-L131/)S15560 * Z19910/FGC22999/Y6047 * S12150... 34 SNPsformed 15400 ybp, TMRCA 10800 ybpinfo (http://www.yfull.com/tree-info/T-L131/)

T-L131* (http://www.yfull.com/tree/T-L131*/)
T-P322 (http://www.yfull.com/tree/T-P322/)Y13246 * Y13253 * Y13271... 90 SNPsformed 10800 ybp, TMRCA 800 ybpinfo (http://www.yfull.com/tree-info/T-P322/)

id:YF02949SAU [SA-01]
id:YF03124SAU [SA-02]


T-Y6033 (http://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y6033/)Z19923/FGC22998/Y6037 * CTS2880 * CTS11660... 18 SNPsformed 10800 ybp, TMRCA 7200 ybpinfo (http://www.yfull.com/tree-info/T-Y6033/)

T-Y6033* (http://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y6033*/)
T-CTS54 (http://www.yfull.com/tree/T-CTS54/)CTS54 * Z19896 * Z19926... 28 SNPsformed 7200 ybp, TMRCA 2800 ybpinfo (http://www.yfull.com/tree-info/T-CTS54/)

T-CTS54* (http://www.yfull.com/tree/T-CTS54*/)

id:NA20758TSI


T-CTS8489 (http://www.yfull.com/tree/T-CTS8489/)CTS8862 * CTS10538 * CTS8489... 3 SNPsformed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybpinfo (http://www.yfull.com/tree-info/T-CTS8489/)

T-CTS8489* (http://www.yfull.com/tree/T-CTS8489*/)

id:HG01530IBS
id:HG01051PUR


T-Y17493 (http://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y17493/)Y17497 * Y17499 * Y17500... 11 SNPsformed 2200 ybp, TMRCA 375 ybpinfo (http://www.yfull.com/tree-info/T-Y17493/)

id:YF04203new
id:YF04232new

Sile
07-11-15, 04:17
some comments from geneticists


Interestingly, haplogroup T-M184, which is relatively rare in other Near Eastern populations, as well as in three of the Armenian collections tested here, represents the most prominent descent in Sasun, comprising 20.1% of the samples. The presence of this haplogroup in Ararat Valley, Gardman and Lake Van, by contrast, is more limited, composing only 3.6%, 6.3% and 3.9%, respectively, of the individuals from those collections.[...]Sasun, however, exhibits statistically significant divergence from the remaining Armenian populations, most likely as the result of the prominence in Sasun of lineages (T-M184 and R2a-M124) found at substantially lower frequencies in Ararat Valley, Gardman and Lake Van.

Kristian J Herrera, 2012



K* is found at 6/19, if M70- but M184+, then could be 84.2%. Bauris are thought to be descendants of a native tribe of the Central Highlands before the Aryan invasion, then as Bauris have not been well assimilated and have not participated satisfactorily in the new Aryan society, the Bauris ended up being seen as "low caste". They are at "halfway" between the old Bauri tribal and the new Aryan society lifestyle., "High Resolution Phylogeographic Map of Y-Chromosomes Reveal the Genetic Signatures of Pleistocene Origin of Indian Populations" (http://www.krepublishers.com/06-Special%20Volume-Journal/T-Anth-00-Special%20Volumes/T-Anth-SI-03-Anth-Today-Web/Anth-SI-03-31-Trivedi-R/Anth-SI-03-31-Trivedi-R-Tt.pdf)


Biggest Eurpoean areas with T-M184 ( xM70) is Leon Spain with 7.7% and Ossetian irons with 4.8%



Below is to do with the 2 x T1a in Neolithic Germany
These borders most probably were a result of the spread of different groups without close social or biological kinship ties to one another who came in to close contact as a consequence of the LBK colonization pattern. In fact, because the LBK was the first complete Neolithic culture in Central Europe, today all farmers of this time and region are classified as members of the LBK by default, regardless of how these people defined themselves and how they differentiated themselves from their contemporaries.
Meyer et al., 2015

Sile
27-11-15, 09:37
Issog T November 2015

T (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpK.html) M184/Page34/USP9Y+3178, CTS150, CTS482/PF5596, CTS493/PF5597, CTS573, CTS3585/PF5618, CTS3837, CTS4014, CTS4652/PF5547, CTS5035, CTS5268/PF7471, CTS5336/PF5626, CTS6045/PF5629, CTS6275/PF7447, CTS6887/PF5637, CTS7164, CTS7263, CTS7426, CTS7749/L810/PF5640, CTS8247, CTS8994, CTS10416/PF5655, CTS10700, CTS10879, CTS11569, CTS12657, L445, L452, L455/PF5670, M193, M272/PF5667, Page129, PF5529, PF5537, PF5568, PF5587, PF5590, PF5603, PF5607, PF5613, PF5661, PF5674, PF5678, PF7460, PF7464, PF7466, PF7480
• T1 L206, L490
• • T1a M70/Page46/PF5662, CTS2336, CTS5332.1/PF7472.1, CTS5364, CTS5987, CTS6004, CTS6214/PF5631, CTS6375, CTS6577, CTS6805/PF5636, CTS8004/PF5641, CTS8397/PF5646, CTS9268/PF5651, CTS9308, CTS10278, CTS11054, CTS11746, Page78, PF5518, PF5592, PF5602, PF5604, PF5608, PF5659, PF5660, PF5664, PF5666, PF7463, PF7465, PF7481
• • • T1a1 L162/Page21, L454, CTS484, CTS550, CTS3271, CTS5542/PF5627, CTS5690, CTS8065/PF5642, CTS11078, CTS11556, L299/PF5675, L453/PF5617, PF5567, PF5593, PF5594, PF5658, FGC3945.2/Z526.2
• • • • T1a1a L208/Page2, CTS931, CTS1818, CTS2611, CTS4085/PF5620, CTS4916, CTS6000/PF7446, CTS7169/PF7448, CTS9163, CTS9506/PF7450, L905
• • • • • T1a1a1 CTS2214
• • • • • • T1a1a1a Z709
• • • • • • • T1a1a1a1 FGC3988/Z710, CTS8512, Z713, Z714
• • • • • • • • T1a1a1a1a P77, CTS2860, CTS7225/L907, CTS11968, CTS660/L906
• • • • • • • • • T1a1a1a1a1 CTS6507
• • • • • • • • • • T1a1a1a1a1a CTS9882
• • • • • • • • • • T1a1a1a1a1b CTS6280
• • • • • • • • T1a1a1a1b Y6409
• • • • • T1a1a2 P321
• • • • • • T1a1a2a P317
• • • • • T1a1a3 PF7443, PF7444, PF7445, PF7453, PF7457, PF7458
• • • T1a2 L131, CTS2157
• • • • T1a2a P322, P328
• • • • T1a2b L446, CTS11796, CTS12108
• • • • • T1a2b1 CTS3767, CTS11984
• • • • • • T1a2b1a CTS8862, CTS9984
• • • T1a3 L1255
• T2 PH110, PH196, PH478, PH526, PH550, PH768, PH933, PH1092, PH1106, PH1172, PH1268, PH1294, PH1343, PH1378, PH1434, PH1457, PH1546, PH1579, PH1583, PH1633, PH1691, PH1841, PH1867, PH1883, PH2017, PH2156, PH2279, PH2292, PH2328, PH2855, PH2861, PH2900, PH2933, PH2990, PH3010, PH3131, PH3150, PH3341, PH3399, PH3422, PH3474, PH3561, PH3721, PH3842, PH3862, PH3868, PH3922, PH3943, PH3996, PH4121, PH4216, PH4431, PH4591, PH4676, PH4746, PH4802, PH4834, PH4842, PH4892, PH4935, PH5136, PH5171, PH5181, PH5212, PH5256, PH5433

Green I am confirmed positive
Red I am confirmed negative

Sile
30-11-15, 07:34
more info below form the T project team of Ftdna

I anticipate that the next update of YFull will add an additional layer between L446 and CTS3767. If it does, I will replicate it on the ISOGG tree.
T-L446 appears to show greater variation in Europe than it does in the middle east. The T-Y7381 branch found in Saudi Arabia (and heavily tested) is relatively young (1400 ybp) so could be the result of a recent migration from further north.

Huracan
16-12-15, 23:57
YFull was updated (version 3.18) and a new branch has been introduced between L446 and CTS11984, very interesting:

T-L131: formed 15800 ybp, TMRCA 11000 ybp
..T-P322: formed 11000 ybp, TMRCA 800 ybp
..T-Y6033: formed 11000 ybp, TMRCA 7300 ybp
...T-CTS933: formed 7300 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybp
....T-CTS54: formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 2800 ybp
.....T-CTS8489: formed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybp < we are here
......T-Y17493: formed 2200 ybp, TMRCA 375 ybp
...T-Y7381: formed 7300 ybp, TMRCA 1400 ybp

The new branch (added in the previous update, 3.17) below ours is where the Scottish individuals of our clade reside, predominated by the Knoxes.