PDA

View Full Version : Is there evidence of blondism at Afanasievo or early Tarim inhabitants?



Vratyas
21-02-14, 20:58
Since the crania from afanasievo cluster with lower volga and since the cultural equipment of Afanasievo is very similar to the Repin culture and Afanasievo started around 3500BC it will be a good indication if proto-indo-europeans had blond hair if we can show that afanasievo people had blond hair or the early inhabitants of the tarim basin that were R1a before the R1b people showed up. The "beauty of Loulan" seems to have had dark hair. Also there is no evidence of farming in the steppes at that time so it doesnt make sense that steppe people would have depigmented due to lack of vitamin D. Did blondism come from cucuteni-tripolye or bug-dniester or later from boat axe people near estonia/lithuania?

ElHorsto
21-02-14, 22:59
Don't know about Afanasievo but in Andronovo there is blondism and also light eyes present. This table has useful summarization, although it is not complete:
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

Vratyas
22-02-14, 10:49
Don't know about Afanasievo but in Andronovo there is blondism and also light eyes present. This table has useful summarization, although it is not complete:
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

Andronovo is quite a bit later than yamna and afanasievo and only 60% of the individuals at andronovo exhibited blondism so its still conceivable that blond hair could have been introduced by non-steppe people and then spread to andronovo.

Vratyas
22-02-14, 20:44
Andronovo is quite a bit later than yamna and afanasievo and only 60% of the individuals at andronovo exhibited blondism so its still conceivable that blond hair could have been introduced by non-steppe people and then spread to andronovo.

Also the Andronovo crania are more gracile than Afanasievo which could be indicative of admixture with Mediterraneans. Also a german study of Catacomb Culture and surrounding areas says they had darker eyes than is the average for europeans today.
Also anthropologists like Coon and Ripley and many others said that nordics are depigmented mediterraneans which suggests that blondism arose in meds and not in the more robust steppe people. Also the age of the blue eye and blond hair mutations coincide well with the advent of farming. It looks like some paleos had blue eyes but its unlikely that we inherited it from them because most if not all blue eyes today are inherited from one person that lived between 6000 and 12000 years ago. The paleos were completely submerged by meds. By the iron age almost all crania in europe were mediterraneans. Since then some paleos have "re-emerged" like borreby and brunn and tronder etc.

So all in all it looks like cucuteni-tripoley or bug-dniester are good candidates for the source of all blue eyes today.

LeBrok
24-02-14, 19:51
Also the Andronovo crania are more gracile than Afanasievo which could be indicative o
Can you post links to Andronovo and Afanasievo skulls to have a look, thanks.

Alan
25-02-14, 01:10
Since the crania from afanasievo cluster with lower volga and since the cultural equipment of Afanasievo is very similar to the Repin culture and Afanasievo started around 3500BC it will be a good indication if proto-indo-europeans had blond hair if we can show that afanasievo people had blond hair or the early inhabitants of the tarim basin that were R1a before the R1b people showed up. The "beauty of Loulan" seems to have had dark hair. Also there is no evidence of farming in the steppes at that time so it doesnt make sense that steppe people would have depigmented due to lack of vitamin D. Did blondism come from cucuteni-tripolye or bug-dniester or later from boat axe people near estonia/lithuania?

As far as I know Afanesievo people were herders. domestication of animals = a form of farming which causes Vitamin D deficiency

LeBrok
25-02-14, 01:40
As far as I know Afanesievo people were herders. domestication of animals = a form of farming which causes Vitamin D deficiency
It would be nice to know how they consumed domesticated animals. If they ate some organs raw this could have supplied some D3. If they drunk a lot of milk then it would have been other source.

Alan
25-02-14, 22:56
It would be nice to know how they consumed domesticated animals. If they ate some organs raw this could have supplied some D3. If they drunk a lot of milk then it would have been other source.

I am not sure but I doubt that they ate the organs raw. Also I suspect that they didn't eat allot of their animals but used them to produce milk and make cheese and other things. However my point was that they were herders and domesticating of animals is a farming technique.

MOESAN
28-02-14, 19:32
Also the Andronovo crania are more gracile than Afanasievo which could be indicative of admixture with Mediterraneans. Also a german study of Catacomb Culture and surrounding areas says they had darker eyes than is the average for europeans today.
Also anthropologists like Coon and Ripley and many others said that nordics are depigmented mediterraneans which suggests that blondism arose in meds and not in the more robust steppe people. Also the age of the blue eye and blond hair mutations coincide well with the advent of farming. It looks like some paleos had blue eyes but its unlikely that we inherited it from them because most if not all blue eyes today are inherited from one person that lived between 6000 and 12000 years ago. The paleos were completely submerged by meds. By the iron age almost all crania in europe were mediterraneans. Since then some paleos have "re-emerged" like borreby and brunn and tronder etc.

So all in all it looks like cucuteni-tripoley or bug-dniester are good candidates for the source of all blue eyes today.

I suppose you mistake blondism and blue eyes and the coinciding partial skin sur-depigmentation with other more drastic skin depigmentations that emerged among 'europoids' and 'mongoloids'...(some of them apparently among neolithical agricultural populations) - and there are at least 2 sorts of blondism-"blueism" whatever the cause: different permutation on the same exact locus, a supplementary mutation in a close locus, or even the action of different genetic constitution in an other part of the genome: 'nordic' is on the dark golden blondism side, some 'borreby' and so called 'east-baltic' (a true type?) are on the lighter greyish blond side (proportionally within blonds, this light whitish blond is more common among Finns of Finland, Estonian, Lithuanian, N-Russians, Bela-Russians, some parts of Poland and Czechoslovakia, even more abundant in %s than among germanic Scandinavians and germans) - not rare at all among Hungarians, Ukrainians - I think the very light greyish brown (rate colour) often found in the same countries are a between position halfway 'whitish blond' and a darker hue condition - the 2 colours are found in the same lands, for the most -
so we have to be carefull in simplifications - and Coon never said this part of depigmented 'mediteraneans' were the only one being blond (not all of them, by the way, according to him) - look at some 'borreby's' very light haired and eyed, in Germany and W-Norway-S-Swede-Denmark -
not to say what you wrote was worthless, just some precisions
&: whatever wrote Coon (I respect) I remarked the more 'mediterranean' the more black haired and dark brown eyed and 'olive' skinned

LeBrok
02-03-14, 00:27
I am not sure but I doubt that they ate the organs raw. Also I suspect that they didn't eat allot of their animals but used them to produce milk and make cheese and other things. However my point was that they were herders and domesticating of animals is a farming technique.
Afanasevo lifestyle and particularly diet might have been similar to Mongolian. Two areas border to each other.
Here is a nice read of Mongolian's way.
http://www.westonaprice.org/in-his-footsteps/diet-of-mongolia

What actually is most interesting here are the posts (below the article) of people born in Mongolia and experiencing first hand certain traditional situations.


One time I remember my farther went hunting with his buddies during one of those summer trips to countryside and they shot a deer, took heart or liver out and forced us kids to eat raw still warm pieces of heart and liver raw and drink warm blood!!!, claiming it is very healthy, full of nutrients and also good for your spirit!!! You would think kids should have been greatly traumatized by the whole ordeal, but actually I remember it as being sort of fun, the ones of us kids who drunk the blood and swallowed the pieces of raw heart and liver without a blink earned respect amongst others, proved they weren't sissy types!



Mongolian nomadic sacred diet is meat and milk. We love meat!!! In fact my most favorite meat was the sheep and goats' head. As a kid I was given sheep checks, and told that these cheeks make girls beautiful, and eating the toungue will make you skilled in speech, etc. Every part of the animal had a little saying as we consumed it...
Anyway, I've learned to eat salads, brush my teeth regularly, and adopt to the whole new system of eating in the States. And I never cook Mongolian food or go out of my way to find a fat sheep or goat for our meals. And i stopped drinking Mongolian tea.
However, whats interesting is that I'm pregnant now, and I am craving for the sheep head, lots of milk, the smell of dung, and all the good things that belong to the nature, and it is so hard to get here.
Thank you very much for an informative and very interesting article.

More I search and look around the more it looks like eating raw liver and other organs was the way of life of hunter-gatherers, herders and nomads of high latitudes, where sun is weak.

Alan
02-03-14, 00:43
I think there might have been some similarities between Mongolian and Afasanevo culture but I doubt it was one and the same.

Eating cow, goat heads and liver are a tradition among us which my father still use to bring to cook at home but this is rather on some special occasions nowadays. But beside these things we also tend to eat allot of milk products and vegetables.

Afanasevo people were not Hunters but Herders. And they didn't hunt on daily basis like hunters did. This is why I said I doubt that eating raw meat was something they did daily, because I think the animals were too valuable/expensive to simply eat meat every day or even every week.

Aberdeen
02-03-14, 15:53
I think there might have been some similarities between Mongolian and Afasanevo culture but I doubt it was one and the same.

Eating cow, goat heads and liver are a tradition among us which my father still use to bring to cook at home but this is rather on some special occasions nowadays. But beside these things we also tend to eat allot of milk products and vegetables.

Afanasevo people were not Hunters but Herders. And they didn't hunt on daily basis like hunters did. This is why I said I doubt that eating raw meat was something they did daily, because I think the animals were too valuable/expensive to simply eat meat every day or even every week.

Perhaps frequency of eating meat depends on whether a group herds only cattle or whether they also herd sheep and/or goats. If we look at modern pastoralists, the Masai in Africa, who I believe only herd cattle, live mostly on a milk product that's similar to keffir and wild greens, and only eat meat for special occasions, but Mongols seem to eat sheep and lambs fairly often. Perhaps smaller and less expensive animals such as sheep and goats are more expendable than cows in a pastoral economy.

MOESAN
20-02-15, 18:58
Also the Andronovo crania are more gracile than Afanasievo which could be indicative of admixture with Mediterraneans. Also a german study of Catacomb Culture and surrounding areas says they had darker eyes than is the average for europeans today.
Also anthropologists like Coon and Ripley and many others said that nordics are depigmented mediterraneans which suggests that blondism arose in meds and not in the more robust steppe people. Also the age of the blue eye and blond hair mutations coincide well with the advent of farming. It looks like some paleos had blue eyes but its unlikely that we inherited it from them because most if not all blue eyes today are inherited from one person that lived between 6000 and 12000 years ago. The paleos were completely submerged by meds. By the iron age almost all crania in europe were mediterraneans. Since then some paleos have "re-emerged" like borreby and brunn and tronder etc.

So all in all it looks like cucuteni-tripoley or bug-dniester are good candidates for the source of all blue eyes today.


Just a kind remark here: nobody can read every thread and post in it, so i repeat my point:
there are more than ONE sort of light hair and light skin and light eye: and today lighter hues are found in far North (for me they came from East but i've no proof for now) among the less "neolithical" people of Eurasia so??? - pigmentation is a multigenes inherited trait and simple selective pressure cannot explain all of it - we could MAYBE figure out some cumulative effects mutations, or different effects mutations (the cumulative aspect COULD explain the lighter blondism/blueism among Northerners rich for "H-Gatherers blood", some mutations having escaped the "scrutinity" of scientists?) - by the way we know that causing blue eyes mutations have some effects on skin cokour too so...
the western and southern descendants of 'neolithical' people have at a strinking majority dark hairs dark eyes and "dark light skin" (!) - a lonesome blond man in late neolithical Hungary cannot prove us the mutation for light hair/eyes+ lightER skin arose everywhere among first peasants - and 'mediterranian' is a relative term: the geography covered by this anhtorpologic term is huge! the 'nordic' types of today (well determined, # 'borreby's' and 'brünnoids') show some affinity with all 'mediterranians' according to the details taken in account, but they show also differences which could be explained by some separation at some stage, and not only a recent coming from Near-Eastern or Greece -or ... I think the NUMERICLY DOMINANT SPREADING of the supplementary lightening mutation which caused blood hair and new blue eyes is not linked TOO CLOSELY to milk-vitaminD problems and it did not occurred the space of an eyeblink - I can mistake, sure, but? and here I spoke of the basic mitation, I think it spred in Eastern Europe West Asia North the Caspian, not of the possible other mutation already occurred among HGs (I already said that I found a strong tendancies to brown hair and confusing hues between blond and brown, or blackish brown and brown more marked in some countries: Neo-Celtic, Balts, Poland, Yougoslavia, and Basques (less) ... could it have some link to HGs??? just a question -
for eyes, I don't see any evident link with selection, maybe only a side-effect of a mutation concerning skin or hair?

MOESAN
20-02-15, 19:11
I add that blondism-"blueism" in Europe seems linked today to Northeast, and being intrusive in South (You have just to look at maps, even if they are not perfect): it's true for the most slavic areas in Balkans and Romania (capital towns, fluvial network), in Spain and Portugal, in Italy, among Lurs:Luri of iran - the plain Tadjiks are lighter than the mountain Tadjiks, the Saami ar darker than the Scandinavians and southern more continental Finns - in France and Britain and Ireland, the Celt imput seem less effective than the later Germanics one, the same in Switzerland - the Italian gentry (patricians) was lighter than the common, the Sicilians are lighter than southern Italians or Sardinians (Normans imput) and so on... all the way, linked to I-Eans and N-E pre-Finnic people (not at first a linguistic link, only geographic, where Steppes played a role) -
among Finnic people, the light pigmentation decreases when East Uralians or Altaic influences increase... the milk explanation is weird concerning eyes and hairs!