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LeBrok
27-02-14, 02:56
Due to recent protests in Ukraine and escape of president Yankovich, short of domestic war, the problem of Crimea is coming to the front. If Ukraine has dual personality (pro European/pro Russian), the Crimea has multiple personality disorder. It belongs to Ukraine but has fairly independent province status, majority of population is Russian. It has a long history belonging to Tatars, so perhaps they deserve their first official country? If Greeks were rich perhaps Crimeans would like to join Greece again? After all Greece is an existing state who own Crimea and build its first cities.
Please vote to show us your vision for Crimea.



Here is short history of it:
Crimea (/ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English)k (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)r (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)aɪ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ˈ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)m (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)iː (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ə (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)/ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English)) is a peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peninsula) of Ukraine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine) located on the northern coast of the Black Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea) with the Autonomous Republic of Crimea (Ukrainian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_language): Автономна Республіка Крим, Avtonomna Respublika Krym; Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language): Автономная Республика Крым, Avtonomnaya Respublika Krym; Crimean Tatar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatar_language): Qırım Muhtar Cumhuriyeti, Къырым Мухтар Джумхуриети) occupying most of the peninsula.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#cite_note-BBCprofileCrimea-6)[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#cite_note-7)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#cite_note-8) It was often referred to with the definite article, as the Crimea, until well into the 20th century.
The territory of Crimea was conquered and controlled many times throughout its history. The Cimmerians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians), Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece), Scythians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians), Goths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Goths), Huns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huns), Bulgars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars), Khazars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars), the state ofKievan Rus' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27), Byzantine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire) Greeks, Kipchaks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kipchaks), Ottoman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire) Turks, Golden Horde (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Horde) Tatars and the Mongols (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongols) all controlled Crimea in its earlier history. In the 13th century, it was partly controlled by the Venetians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Venice) and by the Genovese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Genoa); they were followed by the Crimean Khanate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Khanate) and the Ottoman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire) in the 15th to 18th centuries, the Russian Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Empire) in the 18th to 20th centuries, Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany) during World War II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II) and the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Soviet_Federative_Socialist_Republic) and later the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Soviet_Socialist_Republic), within theSoviet Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union) during the rest of the 20th century.
Crimea is now an autonomous parliamentary republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_republic), within Ukraine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine),[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#cite_note-BBCprofileCrimea-6) which is governed by the Constitution of Crimea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Crimea) in accordance with the laws of Ukraine. The capital and administrative seat of the republic's government is the city of Simferopol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simferopol), located in the center of the peninsula. Crimea's area is 26,200 square kilometres (10,100 sq mi) and its population was 1,973,185 as of 2007. These figures do not include the area and population of the City of Sevastopol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sevastopol) (2007 population: 379,200), which is administratively separate from the autonomous republic. The peninsula thus has 2,352,385 people (2007 estimate).
Crimean Tatars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars), an ethnic minority who in 2001 made up 12.1% of the population,[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#cite_note-2001CensusUKRCR-9) formed in Crimea in the late Middle Ages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages), after the Crimean Khanate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Khanate) had come into existence. The Crimean Tatars were forcibly expelled (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union) to Central Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia) by Joseph Stalin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin)'s government. After the fall of the Soviet Union, Crimean Tatars began to return to the region.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#cite_note-10) According to the 2001 Ukrainian population census (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Census_(2001)) 58.5% of the population of Crimea were ethnic Russians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians) and 24.4% were ethnic Ukrainians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians).[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#cite_note-2001CensusUKRCR-9)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea


The first poll option means " An independant country of multicultural character. In legal aspect not dominated by any ethnicity, fully democratic, independent with equal rights to all citizens.

Tatar state option would mean an independent country with Tatar culture setting tone for official language and culture in general. It might mean not equal rights for all ethnicities, even deportation of Russians and Ukrainians to create predominantly Tatar state.

Sile
27-02-14, 08:43
If you can keep Crimea from joining Russia then I am all for a independent crimea

Aberdeen
27-02-14, 16:10
It isn't just Crimea but most of the southern and eastern part of the Ukraine that has a Russian linguistic majority. Crimea and the rest of the southern and eastern part of modern Ukraine was transferred to the Ukraine by Krushchev in 1954 and the Russians want that territory back. But the Ukrainians seem quite convinced that it should remain part of the Ukraine, and there is a minority of Ukrainian speakers throughout the area. I don't know whether the Russian speakers in that part of the Ukraine want to join Russia or become a separate country with economic ties to Russia, but they don't seem to want to remain part of the Ukraine. I think other countries should be wary of getting too involved in the argument, because things probably won't turn out well for the people living there, at least in the short run. The Ukrainians are saying "The Russian speakers are a minority and they should just shut up." But the Russian speakers are saying "We make up nearly half of the population of the Ukraine and are a majority in the southern and eastern part, so we want to be semi-autonomous if the Ukrainians want us to stay part of the Ukraine." I don't think compromise is likely. And if the Russians get directly involved, is the EU really ready to fight a war over Crimea and other parts of the Ukraine? Perhaps Russia and the EU can agree to a compromise that forces a separation on the area - it's likely to remain ungovernable until that happens, I think. But if the Russian speakers in the Ukraine don't want their area to be completely absorbed by Russia, they may want guarantees that they can remain separate while being part of the Russian economic zone. And of course the idea of Russia regaining any territory will make the EU nervous - it sets a dangerous precedent.

Alan
27-02-14, 17:56
Honestly I can't hide it but as long as Turks still don't recognize even Kurdish autonomy and even do everything in their power to interrupt Kurdish gains outside Turkeys borders, I simply can't say with honest heart that I am for a Tatar state because I know Turkey will try to influence them, not only because of just some ethnic relation but also religious (Tatars are majority Muslim). The last thing what I want to see is Turkey gaining more influence over territory which doesn't belongs to them even after they still can't even accept autonomy inside their own borders.

Aberdeen
27-02-14, 18:34
Honestly I can't hide it but as long as Turks still don't recognize even Kurdish autonomy and even do everything in their power to interrupt Kurdish gains outside Turkeys borders, I simply can't say with honest heart that I am for a Tatar state because I know Turkey will try to influence them, not only because of just some ethnic relation but also religious (Tatars are majority Muslim). The last thing what I want to see is Turkey gaining more influence over territory which doesn't belongs to them even after they still can't even accept autonomy inside their own borders.

I don't think there's much chance that Crimea will become a Tatar state, since they're a minority there. And Russia would never let that happen anyway - they need the Crimea for their Black Sea fleet.

bicicleur
27-02-14, 19:35
I don't think there is much of a problem in the Crimea, but some people or some nations want to create a problem by stirring up emotions.
These people have their own secret intentions.

I do understand the Russians are worried about their naval base in the Crimea, but that problem should be discussed and solved on another level. The local population has little to do with that.

Sile
27-02-14, 20:07
I don't understand this term.....Crimea belongs to Ukraine or Crimea belongs to Russia. What year does this belongs too take effect?
Crimea belongs to the people that live there and they should have the choice, if they are so stupid to unite with another nation, then it's their loss. Today's nations are too young to have anyone say they "belong" to them.

Do we have a Scotland belongs to England! ....should there be, NO......scots will decide

Do we have a Catalonia belongs to Spain......It might be under Spain now, it does not belong to Spain , it belongs to the Catalans and if they decide to break away and become independent, then the UN should support this 100%..........or is democracy only for a few!

Aberdeen
27-02-14, 22:18
I don't understand this term.....Crimea belongs to Ukraine or Crimea belongs to Russia. What year does this belongs too take effect?
Crimea belongs to the people that live there and they should have the choice, if they are so stupid to unite with another nation, then it's their loss. Today's nations are too young to have anyone say they "belong" to them.

Do we have a Scotland belongs to England! ....should there be, NO......scots will decide

Do we have a Catalonia belongs to Spain......It might be under Spain now, it does not belong to Spain , it belongs to the Catalans and if they decide to break away and become independent, then the UN should support this 100%..........or is democracy only for a few!

It's not as if all the people in the Crimea want the same thing. I'm sure that most of the Ukrainian speakers want to remain part of the Ukraine, but most of the Tatars apparently want Crimea to be an independent Tatar nation. And most of the Russian speakers probably want to either be an independent nation that's part of the Russian economic zone or join with Russia. If the government of the Ukraine would allow a fair vote on the issue (which it won't), you might not get a clear majority. But if you did, it would probably be to unite with Russia either economically or politically, since it appears that about half of the people in the Ukraine are Russian speakers. So, what about the rights of the other half of the Crimean population? It's not an easy issue to resolve, I think.

However, since Crimea is already an autonomous part of the Ukraine, and there are Russian troops there to protect the Russian fleet, and since the Russian speakers are the largest group, Crimea will probably become either part of or formally affiliated with Russia. I think that NATO would be ill advised to make too many threats when that does happen. The question is what happens to the other parts of southern and eastern Ukraine where the majority of people speak Russian. The Russians will probably want those areas too, in order to have a contiguous stretch of land connecting the Crimea to Russia. Once Crimea becomes Russian, I think problems will start in other parts of southern and eastern Ukraine. Then we'll see whether NATO is willing to face down the Russian bear in order to help the Ukraine retain those territories. But I think that the Ukraine would be better off to make a deal with Russia - Russia can have the Crimea and the other areas of southern and eastern Ukraine where Russian is the most common language, in return for Russia making no objection about the Ukraine joining the EU and NATO. But I think that idea is too sensible for either side to accept.

Alan
27-02-14, 23:26
I don't think there's much chance that Crimea will become a Tatar state, since they're a minority there. And Russia would never let that happen anyway - they need the Crimea for their Black Sea fleet.


I don't have a problem with Tatars getting a state. But lets be honest Turkey, just like in case with Xingjang, would be the first state to support this while at the same time doing everything they can to oppress the same rights for us in the Middle East.

LeBrok
27-02-14, 23:47
I don't think there's much chance that Crimea will become a Tatar state, since they're a minority there. And Russia would never let that happen anyway - they need the Crimea for their Black Sea fleet.
I agree, most likely nothing is going to change and if changes Crimea will go to Russia.

I was really interested more in popular sentiment on this issue, or what people want, then what is truly going to happen.

I voted for Tatars, just because they deserve their own piece of land, if they desire. :)

ebAmerican
28-02-14, 00:10
However, since Crimea is already an autonomous part of the Ukraine, and there are Russian troops there to protect the Russian fleet, and since the Russian speakers are the largest group, Crimea will probably become either part of or formally affiliated with Russia. I think that NATO would be ill advised to make too many threats when that does happen. The question is what happens to the other parts of southern and eastern Ukraine where the majority of people speak Russian. The Russians will probably want those areas too, in order to have a contiguous stretch of land connecting the Crimea to Russia. Once Crimea becomes Russian, I think problems will start in other parts of southern and eastern Ukraine. Then we'll see whether NATO is willing to face down the Russian bear in order to help the Ukraine retain those territories. But I think that the Ukraine would be better off to make a deal with Russia - Russia can have the Crimea and the other areas of southern and eastern Ukraine where Russian is the most common language, in return for Russia making no objection about the Ukraine joining the EU and NATO. But I think that idea is too sensible for either side to accept.

The issue is oil shale, agricultural land, Crimea Black Sea Naval stronghold, and the Ukrainian population of 50M people. Russia is nothing without Ukraine. It couldn't compete with the EU without a strong member with a lot of natural resources in it's Eurasian Union. If Ukraine falls to the EU so will Moldova and other eastern block countries. It's a sense of preservation for Russia. If they all join the EU or refuse membership in a weakened Eurasian Union Russia's political system collapses, and Putin gets the boot. Ukraine will never make concessions on any of it's controlled territory, and Putin will fight to the death. If Russia invades, which they don't have a choice because if they don't Russia is done, it will force a western intervention (WWIII). Go Ukraine, and everybody thought North Korea was going to end the world! Nope it was always the Russians. A little tongue and cheek, but I don't see this ending well.

martiko
28-02-14, 01:32
I don't think there's much chance that Crimea will become a Tatar state, since they're a minority there. And Russia would never let that happen anyway - they need the Crimea for their Black Sea fleet.

Russian do not absolutely need the Crimea and Georgia managed to access the Black Sea.
Putin needs to control Crimea Ukraine because it is not that he wants to recover Crimea Ukraine but that he believed to be a Russian territory. Russian root Ukraine is the 'border' of Russia.
And for Ttars they are for the most recently and rarely born in Crimea income, on the other hand they had arrived there after Ukrainians, they were not particularly historical claim on the peninsula.

Aberdeen
28-02-14, 02:09
The issue is oil shale, agricultural land, Crimea Black Sea Naval stronghold, and the Ukrainian population of 50M people. Russia is nothing without Ukraine. It couldn't compete with the EU without a strong member with a lot of natural resources in it's Eurasian Union. If Ukraine falls to the EU so will Moldova and other eastern block countries. It's a sense of preservation for Russia. If they all join the EU or refuse membership in a weakened Eurasian Union Russia's political system collapses, and Putin gets the boot. Ukraine will never make concessions on any of it's controlled territory, and Putin will fight to the death. If Russia invades, which they don't have a choice because if they don't Russia is done, it will force a western intervention (WWIII). Go Ukraine, and everybody thought North Korea was going to end the world! Nope it was always the Russians. A little tongue and cheek, but I don't see this ending well.

With all the resources Russia has within its own borders, I don't think it needs the Ukraine for economic reasons, although Russia probably would like to regain the coal fields in the eastern Ukraine. But it does need Crimea in order to protect its flank. The Ukrainians may try to crush the revolt because they think Russia wouldn't dare invade. At which point Russia will probably invade, on the assumption that NATO wouldn't dare counterattack. So I do agree that this isn't likely to end well. Some fans of Norse mythology were predicting that Ragnarok would occur last Saturday, and perhaps they were only off by a week or two. As the Havamal tells us, the world lasts long but in the end fire and ice will prevail. Perhaps nuclear fire followed by nuclear winter.

Goga
28-02-14, 02:25
Crimea belongs to Russia and it will be always Russia! Russia invaded Georgia and nobody expected that. Georgia lost a lot land. If needed Russia will also invade Ukraine. Russia will also stop with supply Western Ukraine with gas & oil. The U.S. is trying to break Russia, like the western countries tried to break Russia during the WW2. They will fail big time. And if U.S. will not watch out it will creat WW3!!!

LeBrok
28-02-14, 02:29
Russian do not absolutely need the Crimea and Georgia managed to access the Black Sea.
Putin needs to control Crimea Ukraine because it is not that he wants to recover Crimea Ukraine but that he believed to be a Russian territory. Russian root Ukraine is the 'border' of Russia.
And for Ttars they are for the most recently and rarely born in Crimea income, on the other hand they had arrived there after Ukrainians, they were not particularly historical claim on the peninsula.

Officially Greeks were there firs around 5th century BCE, then Romans till 3 century CE.

Then a long list:

Throughout the later centuries, Crimea was invaded or occupied successively by the Goths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Goths) (AD 250), the Huns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huns) (376), the Bulgars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars) (4th–8th century), the Khazars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars) (8th century), the state of Kievan Rus' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27) (10th–11th centuries), the Byzantine Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire) (1016), the Kipchaks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kipchaks) (the Kumans) (1050), and the Mongols (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongols) (1237).In the mid-10th century, the eastern area of Crimea was conquered by Prince Sviatoslav I of Kiev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sviatoslav_I_of_Kiev) and became part of the Kievan Rus' principality of Tmutarakan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tmutarakan). In 988, PrinceVladimir I of Kiev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_I_of_Kiev) also captured the Byzantine town of Chersonesos (presently part of Sevastopol) where he later converted to Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity). An impressive Russian Orthodox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Orthodox_Church) cathedral marks the location of this historic event.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Crimean_Khanate_1600.gif/250px-Crimean_Khanate_1600.gif (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Crimean_Khanate_1600.gif)

The Crimean Khanate in 1600



In the 13th century, the Republic of Genoa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Genoa) seized the settlements which their rivals, the Venetians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Venice), had built along the Crimean coast and established themselves at Cembalo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balaklava)(now Balaklava), Soldaia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudak) (Sudak), Cherco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerch) (Kerch) and Caffa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feodosiya#Caffa) (Feodosiya), gaining control of the Crimean economy and the Black Sea commerce for two centuries

Then Crimean Khanate of Tatars. I think, under Ottoman Empire.

Then Russian from 1783.

And Ukrainian since 1954

Who used to live there:


1760s and 1770s — 454,700 (92.6% Crimean Tatars, 4% Greeks, 3.1% Armenians, 0.3% Krymchaks and Karaites)
1897 — 546,700 (35.6% Crimean Tatars, 33.1% Russians, 11.8% Ukrainians, 5.8% Germans, 4.4% Jews, 3.1% Greeks, 1.5% Armenians, 1.3% Bulgarians, 1.2% Poles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_Ukraine), 0.3% Turks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_in_Ukraine))
1989 — 2,430,500 (67.1% Russians, 25.8% Ukrainians, 1.6% Crimean Tatars, 0.7% Jews, 0.3% Poles, 0.1% Greeks)



2001 — 2,024,056 (58.3% Russians, 24.3% Ukrainians, 12.1% Crimean Tatars, 1.4% Belarusians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarusians), 0.5% Tatars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars), 0.4% Armenians, 0.2% each of Jews, Poles, Moldovans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldovans) and Azeris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeris_in_Ukraine), 0.1% each of Uzbeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzbeks), Koreans (Koryo-saram) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koryo-saram), Greeks, Germans, Mordvins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordvins), Chuvashes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuvashes), Gypsies, Bulgarians, Georgians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgians) and Maris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mari_people), as well as Karaites, Krymchaks, and others)


It looks like a beautiful piece of property and everybody wants it. :47:

martiko
28-02-14, 03:05
It looks like a beautiful piece of property and everybody wants it. :47:

Especially the Russians want Crimea and all the banks around; because many Russians are convinced that the Black Sea is their private pool, an old complex legacy of the Tsars and Soviet

And when I say that many Russian think it is their own private pool and private beach, I am not exaggerating, it is the literal word carewhen, and they come from the depths of Siberia to visit during their break from tradition is their riviera

Ike
01-03-14, 00:09
The issue is oil shale, agricultural land, Crimea Black Sea Naval stronghold, and the Ukrainian population of 50M people. Russia is nothing without Ukraine. It couldn't compete with the EU without a strong member with a lot of natural resources in it's Eurasian Union. If Ukraine falls to the EU so will Moldova and other eastern block countries. It's a sense of preservation for Russia. If they all join the EU or refuse membership in a weakened Eurasian Union Russia's political system collapses, and Putin gets the boot. Ukraine will never make concessions on any of it's controlled territory, and Putin will fight to the death. If Russia invades, which they don't have a choice because if they don't Russia is done, it will force a western intervention (WWIII). Go Ukraine, and everybody thought North Korea was going to end the world! Nope it was always the Russians. A little tongue and cheek, but I don't see this ending well.

Really? Have I seen an East interventing when US invaded Dominicana, Panama, Granada .... ?
Does it really force a Western intervention, or is Klitschko with his terrorist group just building an excuse for it?

Sile
01-03-14, 01:11
Officially Greeks were there firs around 5th century BCE, then Romans till 3 century CE.

Then a long list:


Then Crimean Khanate of Tatars. I think, under Ottoman Empire.

Then Russian from 1783.

And Ukrainian since 1954

Who used to live there:


1760s and 1770s — 454,700 (92.6% Crimean Tatars, 4% Greeks, 3.1% Armenians, 0.3% Krymchaks and Karaites)
1897 — 546,700 (35.6% Crimean Tatars, 33.1% Russians, 11.8% Ukrainians, 5.8% Germans, 4.4% Jews, 3.1% Greeks, 1.5% Armenians, 1.3% Bulgarians, 1.2% Poles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_Ukraine), 0.3% Turks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_in_Ukraine))
1989 — 2,430,500 (67.1% Russians, 25.8% Ukrainians, 1.6% Crimean Tatars, 0.7% Jews, 0.3% Poles, 0.1% Greeks)



2001 — 2,024,056 (58.3% Russians, 24.3% Ukrainians, 12.1% Crimean Tatars, 1.4% Belarusians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarusians), 0.5% Tatars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars), 0.4% Armenians, 0.2% each of Jews, Poles, Moldovans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldovans) and Azeris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeris_in_Ukraine), 0.1% each of Uzbeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzbeks), Koreans (Koryo-saram) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koryo-saram), Greeks, Germans, Mordvins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordvins), Chuvashes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuvashes), Gypsies, Bulgarians, Georgians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgians) and Maris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mari_people), as well as Karaites, Krymchaks, and others)


It looks like a beautiful piece of property and everybody wants it. :47:

your numbers of tatars going from 92.6% to 0.5% only indicates that they took on the russian language..

It's like in 1860 when Italy formed..only 3% of 22 million people spoke Italian........now nearly all speak Italian ( as well as their regional languages). The 21plus million in 1860 who did not know Italian did not disappear.

to conclude, I think the majority of these 58.3% russians are tatars

LeBrok
01-03-14, 01:45
your numbers of tatars going from 92.6% to 0.5% only indicates that they took on the russian language..


Speculating in face of available and known history is not the way to go.


In 1944 under the false pretext [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars#cite_note-2) of alleged mass collaboration of the Crimean Tatars with the Nazis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazis) during the Nazi occupation of the Crimea in 1941–1944. As a consequence, the Soviet government decided the total eviction of the Crimean Tatar people from the Crimea on orders of Joseph Stalin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin) and Lavrentiy Beria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavrentiy_Beria).
The deportation began on 18 May 1944 in all Crimean inhabited localities.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars#cite_note-3) More than 32,000 NKVD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NKVD) troops participated in this action. The forced deportees were given only 30 minutes to gather personal belongings, after which they were loaded onto cattle trains and moved out of Crimea.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars#cite_note-massviolence1-4) 193,865 Crimean Tatars were deported, 151,136 of them to Uzbek SSR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzbek_SSR), 8,597 to Mari ASSR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mari_ASSR), 4,286 to Kazakh SSR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakh_SSR), the rest 29,846 to the various oblasts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblast) of Russian SFSR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_SFSR). At the same moment, most of the Crimean Tatar men who were fighting in the ranks of the Red Army were demobilized and sent into forced labor camps in Siberia and in the Ural mountain region.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars#cite_note-massviolence1-4)
The results of this inquiry show that 109,956 (46.2%) Crimean Tatars of the 238,500 deportees died between July 1, 1944 and January 1, 1947.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars#cite_note-7)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars

Besides, these type of surveys report self designated or obvious ethnicity and not the spoken language. They all can speak Russian now, but look at 2001 survey.

Obviously there were many Tatars who were assimilated, but huge number was evicted from Crimea, and also Russians and Ukrainians moved in in big numbers.

ElHorsto
01-03-14, 12:28
If 100% Crimea belongs to 12% Tatars, then 35% Canada belongs to 4.3% natives and 8% USA belongs to 0.9% natives. In Russia there are still 19% natives, so 100% goes to the natives. I couldn't find the figures for Australia.

Aberdeen
01-03-14, 14:55
If 100% Crimea belongs to 12% Tatars, then 35% Canada belongs to 4.3% natives and 8% USA belongs to 0.9% natives. In Russia there are still 19% natives, so 100% goes to the natives. I couldn't find the figures for Australia.

It's okay if we have to give Canada back to the native people because I'm moving back to the Scottish Highlands to file a land claim - my ancestors used to own quite a bit of land there before the Stuart uprisings.

Or we can just accept that land changes hands over time.

LeBrok
01-03-14, 18:44
If 100% Crimea belongs to 12% Tatars, then 35% Canada belongs to 4.3% natives and 8% USA belongs to 0.9% natives. In Russia there are still 19% natives, so 100% goes to the natives. I couldn't find the figures for Australia.
We can always share/occupy land proportionally to demographics. If all Tatars in Russia demand their independent state, they probably would receive land as big as Crimea, perhaps even bigger because of size of Russia (don't wan't to do math at the moment). Likewise in canada Natives could get 10% land for their country.

soket
02-03-14, 02:18
I am a resident of the Crimea.

Why are Western countries support the fascist regime?

Ukraine had occupied the Crimea in 1994. In 1994, Ukraine introduced in Crimea almost 60,000 soldiers and border troops of the National Guard. President Crimea was forced to flee the country. Crimean parliament stripped of almost all authority. Violently forced us to learn Ukrainian language.


Now to power in Ukraine by the coup came Fascists.
They destroy the monuments of the Second World War. They allowed the glorification of fascism. And threatened to destroy the Russian-speaking residents.

Residents of the Crimea, to thank Russian federation, for the fact that she defended the Crimea.

matbir
02-03-14, 12:36
Fascist?
That is just ridicules, stop your soviet propaganda, and look what will be next. The only real scenario is that Putin will establish Republic of Crimea totaly dependent of Russia, because no one will recognize it as legal government.
That scenario happened in 2008 in Georgia, nothing is new here, just long known Russian imperial agenda.

Ike
02-03-14, 15:53
Fascist?
That is just ridicules, stop your soviet propaganda, and look what will be next. The only real scenario is that Putin will establish Republic of Crimea totaly dependent of Russia, because no one will recognize it as legal government.
That scenario happened in 2008 in Georgia, nothing is new here, just long known Russian imperial agenda.

In fact you're the one who is implementing Soviet politics.

1. Kiev was in Russia, even before Russia :)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/001_Kievan_Rus'_Kyivan_Rus'_Ukraine_map_1220_1240. jpg


2. Right before the Soviets:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/Russia_ethnic.JPG

3. Even today, after extensive anti Russian politics there are a lot of people in Ukraine who consider themselves Russian or speak Russian:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/46/Ukraine_cencus_2001_Russian.svg/621px-Ukraine_cencus_2001_Russian.svg.png

Ike
02-03-14, 16:07
BTW there are already jokes going around.... People are aware what EU is doing.

matbir
02-03-14, 17:58
After failure of Yanukowych's policy Ukraine needs new parliamentary and president elections, certainly not war.
Why Putin is trying to wage war against Ukraine? Why he needs to separate Crimea from Ukraine?
Russian political power is based on the income from fuel exports. Ukraine is confirmed to have large deposits of methane clathrate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane_clathrate) in the bottom of the Black Sea. So in next 10-15 years Ukraine will become exporter of gas what makes it potential economic rival.
So Russian officials emphasize that in government of Ukraine there are nationalists, even if Yatseniuk declared that they are respecting every minority in the country so they are working on a new law on languages.
I am also concerned about nationalist sentiments of party Svoboda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)), but gladly they do not have prime minister (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yatsenyuk_Government).

@ Ike:
1. Rus is not Russia. Grand Duchy of Moscow became the Tsardom of Russia in 1547 along with coronation of Ivan IV the Terrible. Rus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27) was established in 9th century as the federation of East Slavs.
2. Ukrainians ware named Little Russians, Ruthenians and Ukrainians in different times. Map shown by you named them Petis Russes. Right before Soviets there was Ukrainian People’s Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_People%27s_Republic). Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ethnic-Ukrainians.jpg) is map showing Ukrainian-speaking area in early years of 20th century.
3. Today after 71 yeas of ocupation by the Soviets many Ukrainians speak Russian language, but they are still Ukrainians. Ethnic Russians make only 17.3% of population of Ukraine it iis lower ratio then in Latvia(26.9%) and Estonia(25.6%).
Russian language in Ukraine:
6278
Ukrainian language in Ukraine:
6279

Edit:
Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UkraineNativeLanguagesCensus2001detailed.PNG) is more detailed map.

Protests against war in Moscow. (http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/russian-anti-war/1017688.html)

Ike
02-03-14, 18:36
Like I don't know how New Age Imperialists invent new nations when serves their goal. EU has shown multiple times that it is not interested in implementation of democracy, disregarded legitimate choice of people, and broken international law and agreements. We have an experience here on Balkans with territories like Krajina's ;)

Stop spreading that nationalistic bshit here. The difference between Ukraine and Russia considering language, history and ethnicity is minor, and only external factors are emphasizing it order to provoke chaos in the region, and to get a cause for military intervention which will only bring death and chaos (already there) and foreign troops (NATO) to Ukraine. They've done the same in my country some 20 years ago. I hope that Ukrainians are more smart than us and that they've learnt something from orchestrated fallout of Yugoslavia.


Why would a war start? Over the Yanaukovich decision to slow down integration with EU? If EU is so concerned about the well being of Ukrainians, it could say that Ukraine can't join EU ever, and the story is over.
So, does EU wants a war, or does it want to stop it?

Anton, Bear's den
02-03-14, 18:41
The author should put an option about Martians in the poll, probably Martian UFO dish landed in Crimea before first Greek settlers arrived so Martians also have right on the territory http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif

matbir
02-03-14, 19:11
I thought that you know about Putin (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/russian-parliament-approves-use-of-troops-in-crimea/2014/03/01/d1775f70-a151-11e3-a050-dc3322a94fa7_story.html)'s steps (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/russian-parliament-approves-use-of-troops-in-crimea/2014/03/01/d1775f70-a151-11e3-a050-dc3322a94fa7_story.html) aimed to wage war against Ukraine.

ElHorsto
02-03-14, 19:14
After failure of Yanukowych's policy Ukraine needs new parliamentary and president elections, certainly not war.


The problem is that Yanukovich was elected and new elections probably would not change much. Maybe those Ukrainians who voted differently should be glad if they could get rid of the russophile Crimea and Donbass ;)
I'm speculating now but I wouldn't be surprised if Russia for that reason would not fully take away Crimea from Ukraine, just strenghtening it's autonomy status.



Why Putin is trying to wage war against Ukraine? Why he needs to separate Crimea from Ukraine?


There is this special contract which obliges Ukraine to warrant to Russia the military base. Maybe this contract could be a second reason to not fully take away Crimea from Ukraine, we'll see.

martiko
02-03-14, 19:14
After failure of Yanukowych's policy Ukraine needs new parliamentary and president elections, certainly not war.
Why Putin is trying to wage war against Ukraine? Why he needs to separate Crimea from Ukraine?
Russian political power is based on the income from fuel exports. Ukraine is confirmed to have large deposits of methane clathrate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane_clathrate) in the bottom of the Black Sea. So in next 10-15 years Ukraine will become exporter of gas what makes it potential economic rival.
So Russian officials emphasize that in government of Ukraine there are nationalists, even if Yatseniuk declared that they are respecting every minority in the country so they are working on a new law on languages.
I am also concerned about nationalist sentiments of party Svoboda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)), but gladly they do not have prime minister (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yatsenyuk_Government).

@ Ike:
1. Rus is not Russia. Grand Duchy of Moscow became the Tsardom of Russia in 1547 along with coronation of Ivan IV the Terrible. Rus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27) was established in 9th century as the federation of East Slavs.
2. Ukrainians ware named Little Russians, Ruthenians and Ukrainians in different times. Map shown by you named them Petis Russes. Right before Soviets there was Ukrainian People’s Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_People%27s_Republic). Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ethnic-Ukrainians.jpg) is map showing Ukrainian-speaking area in early years of 20th century.
3. Today after 71 yeas of ocupation by the Soviets many Ukrainians speak Russian language, but they are still Ukrainians. Ethnic Russians make only 17.3% of population of Ukraine it iis lower ratio then in Latvia(26.9%) and Estonia(25.6%).
Russian language in Ukraine:
6278
Ukrainian language in Ukraine:
6279

Edit:
Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UkraineNativeLanguagesCensus2001detailed.PNG) is more detailed map.

Protests against war in Moscow. (http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/russian-anti-war/1017688.html)

Hitler was already so before Putin: He demanded a large province because a few thousand people spoke German, of the Czech and the rest is history.
Putin has already invaded the Ukrainian province of Crimea and now he talks about a third of the rest of the Ukraine ... etc .... in Paris as a few thousand people speak Russian.
I fear that Putin redo as the annexation of Georgia, but this time I feel that this will end badly if the Russian people do not take control of Russia.
You can not trust the word of a Putin as they did for Hitler. We will have to get involved, because then it will be Poland.
I am very worried.

Anton, Bear's den
02-03-14, 19:41
Matbir

How much Russian speaking people you have in Poland? Are their rights violated???????????????? http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gifhttp://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gifhttp://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif

matbir
02-03-14, 19:42
The problem is that Yanukovich was elected and new elections probably would not change much. Yanukovich has no chance in elections, after what happened in Kiev. No one mentally healthy would vote for man who allowed police to shot to the civilians.

Aberdeen
02-03-14, 20:04
Yanukovich has no chance in elections, after what happened in Kiev. No one mentally healthy would vote for man who allowed police to shot to the civilians.

Yanukovich allowed or ordered police to shoot at Ukrainian speaking people. I suspect that Russian speaking people in the Ukraine aren't quite as upset about that as you might think. It's a country divided, and perhaps the Ukrainians would be better off to let Russia take back all of the territory that Khrushchev gave to the Ukraine in 1954, so that the rest of the Ukraine can become fully integrated into the west. Only then can the Ukrainians count on the EU to protect them from the Russian bear. Russians already have Crimea - will Russian speaking people in Crimea who've welcomed the Russians be allowed to vote in a Ukrainian election? Probably not.

ElHorsto
02-03-14, 20:16
Russians already have Crimea - will Russian speaking people in Crimea who've welcomed the Russians be allowed to vote in a Ukrainian election? Probably not.

For this case russian army is already there to ensure democracy (scnr). :D

LeBrok
02-03-14, 20:26
Matbir

How much Russian speaking people you have in Poland? Are their rights violated???????????????? http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gifhttp://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gifhttp://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif

It is interesting how Russian and "Yugoslavian" posters can't even consider other solutions than Crimea being Russian property. It means that it is not only Putin but majority of Russians are imperialists in heart.

Anything objective this time, or ridiculing and demining others (this time Ukrainians) is your national sport you're proud of?
Sadly, with this attitude, Russia is still far away from being a true member of international community, a partner, a friend, a big strong helping brother, and yet it prides itself being a bully and a thug.

Anton, Bear's den
02-03-14, 21:48
It is interesting how Russian and "Yugoslavian" posters can't even consider other solutions than Crimea being Russian property. It means that it is not only Putin but majority of Russians are imperialists in heart.

Well I don't see any imperialism, the only thing what Russian Federation did is warned illegitimate Ukranian neo-nazi radical gangs at power that RF will not tolerate violence towards Russian community in Ukraine. The Crimea peoples will decide themselves it's furture on referendum scheduled for March 30.


Sadly, with this attitude, Russia is still far away from being a true member of international community, a partner, a friend, a big strong helping brother, and yet it prides itself being a bully and a thug.

I am afraid Anglo-Saxon family of countries as well as you Lebrok don't distinguish words "friend" & "vassal". The "Good" for you only the one who fulfills all your orders unquestioningly like a lapdog and bad any other who has their own opinion. You de-facto have only vassals & enemies on the borderline.

martiko
02-03-14, 22:10
It is interesting how Russian and "Yugoslavian" posters can't even consider other solutions than Crimea being Russian property. It means that it is not only Putin but majority of Russians are imperialists in heart.

Anything objective this time, or ridiculing and demining others (this time Ukrainians) is your national sport you're proud of?
Sadly, with this attitude, Russia is still far away from being a true member of international community, a partner, a friend, a big strong helping brother, and yet it prides itself being a bully and a thug.
you can not imagine the number of Russian soldiers who want to desert.
Russia is really a mafia state, and I think what I saw with my eyes.
Let this quote Russian;
because we must recognize them unlike the Germans who voted for Hitler, the Russian did not vote for Putin.
We must remain calm but determined and I think a total economic war with Russia is a possible way to bring down the tyrant.

Aberdeen
02-03-14, 22:33
Well I don't see any imperialism, the only thing what Russian Federation did is warned illegitimate Ukranian neo-nazi radical gangs at power that RF will not tolerate violence towards Russian community in Ukraine. The Crimea peoples will decide themselves it's furture on referendum scheduled for March 30.



I am afraid Anglo-Saxon family of countries as well as you Lebrok don't distinguish words "friend" & "vassal". The "Good" for you only the one who fulfills all your orders unquestioningly like a lapdog and bad any other who has their own opinion. You de-facto have only vassals & enemies on the borderline.

This is how I believe most Russians think about the situation, especially Russian leaders. That's why I advise Ukrainians to be cautious about how they handle the situation.

soket
02-03-14, 23:06
Fascist?
That is just ridicules, stop your soviet propaganda, and look what will be next. The only real scenario is that Putin will establish Republic of Crimea totaly dependent of Russia, because no one will recognize it as legal government.
That scenario happened in 2008 in Georgia, nothing is new here, just long known Russian imperial agenda.






I am also concerned about nationalist sentiments of party Svoboda, but gladly they do not have prime minister.


You are absolutely not aware of the current situation in Ukraine.

Svoboda party and the government does not have power in the country, it's puppets.
Power in the country is located at
Right Sector (Pravyi Sektor) is a Ukrainian militant group consisting mostly of young men with right-wing, ultra right-wing, borderline fascist or neofascist views.
Speaking about his attitude towards non-Ukrainians, Yarosh referred to controversial WWII figure Stepan Bandera as a model. For those fighting with Right Sector "for Ukraine," Yarosh stated that they should be treated "as comrades." For those opposing "the Ukrainian people's national liberation struggle," Yarosh stated that they should be treated "in a hostile way.
Andriy Tarasenko in an interview stated, among other things, that territories of Poland like Przemysl should become part of Ukraine and that it should regain nuclear weapons

Alan
02-03-14, 23:53
Fascist?
That is just ridicules, stop your soviet propaganda, and look what will be next. The only real scenario is that Putin will establish Republic of Crimea totaly dependent of Russia, because no one will recognize it as legal government.
That scenario happened in 2008 in Georgia, nothing is new here, just long known Russian imperial agenda.
I wouldn't bring in Georgia into this game. In my opinion Ossetians have a right for their own homeland. I am not saying this in any offense to Georgians since I like them but just even without the Ossetian territories there wouldn't be much difference because it is just a small part of Georgia and Georgia just like most countries in West Asia are not made upon ethnic but geopolitical/imperial borders.

Ike
03-03-14, 00:54
Yanukovich has no chance in elections, after what happened in Kiev. No one mentally healthy would vote for man who allowed police to shot to the civilians.

Yanukovich won the latest electons legitimately. So, how would you feel if a "group of civilians" stumbled down to Warshaw and started shooting at the police, and forced your president that you elected out of the city?

With an experience I have in situations like these, I say that only mistake Yanaukovich made was not to shoot down all the terrorist. All of them together with their leaders should have been put to death. It's what any other democratic leader would do. He was elected by his people to a certain function, and it's his responsibility to defend the country and legal institutions from intruders.

Possible war is the price country may pay, for Yanaukovich not doing what he was supposed to do.

LeBrok
03-03-14, 02:00
With an experience I have in situations like these, I say that only mistake Yanaukovich made was not to shoot down all the terrorist. All of them together with their leaders should have been put to death. It's what any other democratic leader would do. He was elected by his people to a certain function, and it's his responsibility to defend the country and legal institutions from intruders.

It is pretty much explanatory why you and people like you created so much mess, civil war, and war crimes in Yugoslavia, "shoot down all the terrorist". Did it help you to keep Yugoslavia together?
Yep, brand them terrorists, natzis and western vasals and kill them all. Your "political solutions" how to deal with unhappy and disillusioned citizens are astounding, worth of NKWD or KGB methods.

LeBrok
03-03-14, 02:07
Well I don't see any imperialism, the only thing what Russian Federation did is warned illegitimate Ukranian neo-nazi radical gangs at power that RF will not tolerate violence towards Russian community in Ukraine. The Crimea peoples will decide themselves it's furture on referendum scheduled for March 30.
...and Russian troops will make sure the referendum is honest...After all Russian Government is known by its transparency, honesty and caring for people.




I am afraid Anglo-Saxon family of countries as well as you Lebrok don't distinguish words "friend" & "vassal". The "Good" for you only the one who fulfills all your orders unquestioningly like a lapdog and bad any other who has their own opinion. You de-facto have only vassals & enemies on the borderline. We are so at ease knowing that Putin and his "free" press are making sure you get the definitions right.

Ike
03-03-14, 02:45
It is pretty much explanatory why you and people like you created so much mess, civil war, and war crimes in Yugoslavia, "shoot down all the terrorist". Did it help you to keep Yugoslavia together?
Sadly it did not happen. The federal government was disorganized, perpetrators were not persecuted, and when terrorist started attacking civilians, institutions and the army nobody had the guts to do what had to be done. Military had strict orders not to shoot anyone, and soldiers were not given ammunition. Reaction was not proper, and consequences were horrible.


Yep, brand them terrorists, natzis and western vasals and kill them all. Your "political solutions" how to deal with unhappy and disillusioned citizens are astounding, worth of NKWD or KGB methods.
If you like 'em so much, you can have them all. Please take em to your country, they are nice, civil an peaceful ;)
Pure democracy on it's finest. The good boy in the first photo has even got a EU peace symbol on his forearm :D

martiko
03-03-14, 02:59
when you press the trigger the ball goes and you can not catch it, that's the difference with words. And you can not rewind the film back.

100 Ukrainian civilians already killed by Russian soldiers in Kiev, it is not enough, you still thirsty?

The best stop everything but this is not possible because Putin has already invaded Tcetchennia, part of the Georgia threatens the Baltic countries and now it is the ukraine, Poland tomorrow or the Latvia?
A ball that I will not stop I know that.
I think that for me everything is said on this subject. Vco! do ctrieztchi.

Ike
03-03-14, 04:12
when you press the trigger the ball goes and you can not catch it, that's the difference with words. And you can not rewind the film back.

100 Ukrainian civilians already killed by Russian soldiers in Kiev, it is not enough, you still thirsty?

The best stop everything but this is not possible because Putin has already invaded Tcetchennia, part of the Georgia threatens the Baltic countries and now it is the ukraine, Poland tomorrow or the Latvia?
A ball that I will not stop I know that.
I think that for me everything is said on this subject. Vco! do ctrieztchi.

What has got Putin to do with terrorist that are coming from EU to Ukraine to start a war?

kamani
03-03-14, 07:39
This is just madness. The people there on both sides are surely going through hell. But who is profiting from this? EU certainly not, they're not actively trying to add another poor satellite, after what happened with Greece.

martiko
03-03-14, 08:10
What has got Putin to do with terrorist that are coming from EU to Ukraine to start a war?

I found your source of misinformation following photos.
Not found there, one photo showing Russian soldiers making use of their military weapons on the civilian population of the demonstrators in Kiev, but this is what we find there.


http://www.thesleuthjournal.com/western-manipulated-violence-ukraine/
http://www.thesleuthjournal.com/sleuth-journal/
http://www.thesleuthjournal.com/bill-gates-monsanto-eugenics-how-one-of-the-worlds-wealthiest-men-is-actively-promoting-corporate-takeover-of-global-agriculture/

No comments

Coolboygcp
03-03-14, 10:26
Russia is like the big bully in the schoolyard. Except, it is the big thug in the international community.

Russia cannot realise that the days of the Soviet Union are over. It's been 23 years, they are over. (Well with the Eurasian Union, they will be ushered in again with Russia, Kazakhstan, Belarus, etc)

They invaded Georgia, and installed two puppet states in Georgian land (South Ossetia, and Abkhazia). Now they have invaded the Ukraine, and it seems that instead of installing a puppet state, they want to reincorporate it into Russia. And they want to do this near the eve of 50 years of Crimea being Ukrainian.

I fear that this will turn into WW3. It seems that the EU and NATO will intervene, and they should. However, if they do, it will certainly turn into a huge war.

Some people try to play this down as Russia defending it's Black Sea Fleet. This is Russia try to take Crimea back.

The first settlers of Crimea were the Greeks. The Greeks should be given the Crime. They would govern it better, they would incorporate it into the European Union, and they would tolerate, and encourage diversity; both ethnic and linguistic.

However, I consider it unlikely that the Greeks would get the Crimea.

In such a case, then either the Tatars or the Ukrainians should be given/keep the Crimea. The Tatars were a majority for a very long time, and their presence only diminished because of the Soviet Union's policies towards them under Stalin. All Tatars should be offered residence in Crimea, and it should become the first Tatar state in modern times.

This scenario is possible, but will probably not happen (though the Greeks or the Tatars really deserve the Crimea as for the Greeks; it was their's first, and for the Tatars; it was their's the longest.)

If these two scenarios cannot happen, then the Ukrainians should keep the Crimea. I know that Russians are the linguistic majority in the Crimea. However, if given to Russia, the Crimean people's rights would be taken away, and they would become just another oblast. And if given independence, they would be like South Ossetia, or Belarus; a Russian puppet state. However, it is unlikely that the Russians will cede to Ukrainian demands that the Russians retreat. They have not ceded to EU, NATO, and American warnings and demands, so they will not cede to Ukrainian ones. Putin is an *******, he doesn't care what the Ukrainians want, or what The West wants, Putin doesn't even care about the Russian people. Putin cares about what Putin wants. So if the Russians don't retreat (which they won't), it is not likely that Ukraine will be able to regain Crimea by themselves, they would have to regain it by force with the help of NATO, EU, and/or the US.

At the moment Crimea is Russian, they have control of it. I hope that either the Greeks or the Tatars get Crimea, or that Ukraine regains control of the Crimea.

But about Putin.

Perhaps Putin does all of these things to express his anger, his anger for hiding his homosexuality. If he just came out of the closet, and embraced who he is, perhaps he would not act in this manner. We all now he's gay, he should just come out of the closet already! There isn't anything wrong with being gay!

If he came out, he would probably act like he does now, though I hope he would change.

But to answer the title of this thread, "Should Crimea be an independent country", I would say it should incorporated into Greece, or become an independent Tatar state. Otherwise, it should not get independence. (Also, if it was a Tatar state, it would probably align itself with Turkey, which would be better than with Russia, and if Turkey joins the EU, Crimea would probably join shortly after.)

Oh, and to Russians, the Slavs who call themselves "Soviets and "Yugoslavians" who have posted on this thread, you need to get unbrainwashed, they have many classes that can help you with that. Also, stop reading the Russian propaganda! Read factual, Western news such as the BBC!

ElHorsto
03-03-14, 13:09
This is just madness. The people there on both sides are surely going through hell. But who is profiting from this? EU certainly not, they're not actively trying to add another poor satellite, after what happened with Greece.

This wikipedia summary about this book (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Chessboard) from a polish-american could shed some light to the question.

matbir
03-03-14, 13:20
Well I don't see any imperialism, the only thing what Russian Federation did is warned illegitimate Ukranian neo-nazi radical gangs at power that RF will not tolerate violence towards Russian community in Ukraine. The Crimea peoples will decide themselves it's furture on referendum scheduled for March 30.


I am afraid Anglo-Saxon family of countries as well as you Lebrok don't distinguish words "friend" & "vassal". The "Good" for you only the one who fulfills all your orders unquestioningly like a lapdog and bad any other who has their own opinion. You de-facto have only vassals & enemies on the borderline. Ha Ha exactly the same expression as I would expect from Poles brainwashed in communist times. They are blind for Russian imperialist policy, and every misery and suffering in the world is caused by vampire-capitalists from USA and Western Europe.:laughing:


You are absolutely not aware of the current situation in Ukraine.

Svoboda party and the government does not have power in the country, it's puppets.
Power in the country is located at
Right Sector (Pravyi Sektor) is a Ukrainian militant group consisting mostly of young men with right-wing, ultra right-wing, borderline fascist or neofascist views.
Speaking about his attitude towards non-Ukrainians, Yarosh referred to controversial WWII figure Stepan Bandera as a model. For those fighting with Right Sector "for Ukraine," Yarosh stated that they should be treated "as comrades." For those opposing "the Ukrainian people's national liberation struggle," Yarosh stated that they should be treated "in a hostile way.
Andriy Tarasenko in an interview stated, among other things, that territories of Poland like Przemysl should become part of Ukraine and that it should regain nuclear weapons
Prawy Sektor is a group of people working in favor of Putin's policy they gave reasons to attack Ukraine and they gave reasons to stop Polish support for democratic changes in Ukraine. Who is taking advantage from this? Of course Putin!
So, in my opinion this extremist deserve be eliminated from political scene. Especially glorification of the butcher Stefan Bandera is the sign of their brainlessness. Yatseniuk is aware of this and doing his best to keep Ukraine as one country.

Yanukovich won the latest electons legitimately. So, how would you feel if a "group of civilians" stumbled down to Warshaw and started shooting at the police, and forced your president that you elected out of the city?

With an experience I have in situations like these, I say that only mistake Yanaukovich made was not to shoot down all the terrorist. All of them together with their leaders should have been put to death. It's what any other democratic leader would do. He was elected by his people to a certain function, and it's his responsibility to defend the country and legal institutions from intruders.

Possible war is the price country may pay, for Yanaukovich not doing what he was supposed to do.
First of all water cannons are the best way to stop protests especially in winter when temperature is -10C. But in Ukraine it is not the case, Yanukovich wasn’t able to stop the protests because in administration and in very influential oligarchs he had opposition. That is why for last four months inner conflict escalated in Ukraine. One more thing, Yanukovich deceived the public in case of his foreign policy and that made Ukrainians angry.

What has got Putin to do with terrorist that are coming from EU to Ukraine to start a war?
I thing “Prawy Sektor” is supported by Russian Federation. I just explained it to user Soket. Everything go along game theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory).



Edit: Russian Federation attacks Ukraine to protect Russian minority, but nothing happened to them. So what is next? Maybe Time for Latvia where Russians have to pass Language exam to gain citizenship of Republic of Latvia? The Russian minority in this country make 26.9%. Should Latvians feel threatened?

Goga
03-03-14, 14:12
But to answer the title of this thread, "Should Crimea be an independent country", I would say it should incorporated into Greece, or become an independent Tatar state. Otherwise, it should not get independence. (Also, if it was a Tatar state, it would probably align itself with Turkey, which would be better than with Russia, and if Turkey joins the EU, Crimea would probably join shortly after.)

Oh, and to Russians, the Slavs who call themselves "Soviets and "Yugoslavians" who have posted on this thread, you need to get unbrainwashed, they have many classes that can help you with that. Also, stop reading the Russian propaganda! Read factual, Western news such as the BBC!LMAO, how old are you? It looks like that you don't know anything about what is going on around the Black Sea. Tatars came to Crimea as immigrants. They have nothing to do with Crimea. Also Turkey is occupying Cyprus (Greece) and Northern Kurdistan. As long as Turkey is occupying Cyprus and Northern Kurdistan Turkey will never join the EU. Also Turks are immigrants to the region like all other Tatars are. They don't belong in Europe.

Goga
03-03-14, 14:24
I was born in the USSR, in Georgia. And also I was a 'Soviet' citizen. And I don't like the idea that the US (Western World + Jews) will be the only hegemony (super power) in the world. US is not better that the Russians. The Western World also measures with the double standard. If they were such a big democrats they would support Kurdistan against Islamic, Arabic and Turkic occupiers. The Western World is nothing but hypocrites. They’re not better than Russia. The US also attack whoever they want without asking Russia and China, like attacking Yougoslavia / Serbia (Kosovo)! Also, believe me, nobody can break Russia! Russia is to BIG. Napoleon tried, the Turks tried, the Persians tried, the Nazi-Germans tried, but nobody succeeded. Why can’t people take example out of this past. Why is Germany still trying to break Russia? The US betrayed Kurds big time. Americans and Europeans are a bunch of hypocrites. And that’s why as a Kurd I will not support US policy as long as they don’t change their attitude and become REAL democrats, by supporting nations that have a right for self-determination like Kurdistan! I don't like Russia but I don’t like the current (Middle Eastern) policy of America either!

Ike
03-03-14, 14:26
Last edited by LeBrok; Today at 04:44. Reason: This is not Russian or your propaganda board. Refrain from posting such material. You've crossed the line..


Ja wohl, mein Fuhrer.

martiko
03-03-14, 15:42
Perhaps out of respect for the 100 victims of Kiev, we should close this topic
They did not speak, he crawled under fire killers.
So I propose that we close our mouths.

Goga
03-03-14, 18:11
Well, whoever is playing with fire should accept that he/she can be caught by fire! If you don't want to burn by fire and become a 'victim' don't play with fire at all at the first place. What goes around comes around. Western Ukraine is (and will be) the poorest country in Europe. And if/when they split Ukraine in 2 parts, nobody in Europe will ever care about Western Ukraine at all. Western Ukraine has nothing. Why should Germany and the US give own money to Western Ukraine for nothing? Even a bankrupt Greece is more important than the 3rd world country like Western Ukraine...

LeBrok
03-03-14, 19:43
LMAO, how old are you? It looks like that you don't know anything about what is going on around the Black Sea. Tatars came to Crimea as immigrants. They have nothing to do with Crimea. Also Turkey is occupying Cyprus (Greece) and Northern Kurdistan. As long as Turkey is occupying Cyprus and Northern Kurdistan Turkey will never join the EU. Also Turks are immigrants to the region like all other Tatars are.
How do you suggest is the original ethnicity to give Crimea to them?



They don't belong in Europe. What is your cut off date, 1,000 years or more, to be a rightful owner of a land? Perhaps Kurds should be kicked out off Middle East, after all they came there as immigrants at one time.

Goga
03-03-14, 19:58
As long as the original native population does exist in the region the 'immigrants' will be always 'the immigrants'. Indo-European (Hellenic & Slavic) speaking people were in Crimea before the Turkic speaking Tatars and as long as Slavic language is spoken in Crimea, Turkic language will be always considered as language of the immigrants. Like on Cyprus Turkic will never be considered as the native language as long as Hellenic people do live on Cyprus.

Kurds came from nowhere. As far as I know Kurds are the OLDEST inhabitants of the ancient land of Kurdistan (South Eastern Taurus - Zagros mountains). Arabs (and other Semites) came to the region after Kurds. Turks came to region after Kurds etc.

LeBrok
03-03-14, 20:04
Western Ukraine is (and will be) the poorest country in Europe. And if/when they split Ukraine in 2 parts, nobody in Europe will ever care about Western Ukraine at all.
I'm sure you would say the same about Ireland 20 years ago. It was the poorest country in Europe.
And it is not that Europe or US cares for Ireland more right now. The Irish made it by themselves and it is what counts the most. The tools for success are out there in the open. It is up to countries to use them to make them rich and citizens free and happy.

23 years ago Poland and Ukraine got their independence from Soviet Union and finally could choose their own paths. Poland chose to be in Western influence and started a capitalist economy. Poland's GDP grew 3 fold since, people are content, and country is peaceful. Ukraine on other hand has chosen Russian influence and didn't reform their economy. As a result Ukrainian economy is stagnant and at same level as 20 years ago, people are unhappy and frustrated. That's how revolution happens.

If Ukraine splits, at least the Western part will get a big chance to reform, westernize, grow economy in connection with EU, and good chance joining Union in 10-20 years.





Even a bankrupt Greece is more important than the 3rd world country like Western Ukraine... Why is that?

LeBrok
03-03-14, 20:18
As long as the original native population does exist in the region the 'immigrants' will be always 'the immigrants'. Indo-European (Hellenic & Slavic) speaking people were in Crimea before the Turkic speaking Tatars and as long as Slavic language is spoken in Crimea, Turkic language will be always considered as language of the immigrants. Like on Cyprus Turkic will never be considered as the native language as long as Hellenic people do live on Cyprus.

Do you have any historical material proving existence of Hellenic or Slavic speakers in Crimea before Tatar invasion?



Kurds came from nowhere. As far as I know Kurds are the OLDEST inhabitants of the ancient land of Kurdistan (South Eastern Taurus - Zagros mountains). Same with Tatars. Before Russians came 93% of citizens declared themselves as Tatars. The remaining 7% could have been as well emigrants, traders or Ottoman Troops leftover.

Alan
03-03-14, 20:30
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Do you have any historical material proving existence of Hellenic or Slavic speakers in Crimea before Tatar invasion?



Not trying to label Tatars as "Immigrants" who have no right on Crimea but he is right in that point that Tatars are indeed not really the natives. I think you provided yourself the sources which says that Crimea was Greek even before it was Tatar.

LeBrok
03-03-14, 20:37
Not trying to label Tatars as "Immigrants" who have no right on Crimea but he is right in that point that Tatars are indeed not really the natives. I think you provided yourself the sources which says that Crimea was Greek even before it was Tatar. Can we find really true natives anymore there?
In lack of true natives Tatars are next on list of longest continues ethnicity there, therefore natives. (at same time being immigrants, lol, Life always throws curveballs)


And before it was Tatar it was Iranic (Cimmerian and later Scythian). What if Tatars belonged to Scythian confederation? They have undisputable Scythian cultural character. Ride small horses, shoot same bows, ware same cloths, etc. Well not now of course, but one can see some cultural continuity with Scythians in the past.

Goga
03-03-14, 20:37
I'm sure you would say the same about Ireland 20 years ago. It was the poorest country in Europe.
And it is not that Europe or US cares for Ireland more right now. The Irish made it by themselves and it is what counts the most. The tools for success are out there in the open. It is up to countries to use them to make them rich and citizens free and happy.

23 years ago Poland and Ukraine got their independence from Soviet Union and finally could choose their own paths. Poland chose to be in Western influence and started a capitalist economy. Poland's GDP grew 3 fold since, people are content, and country is peaceful. Ukraine on other hand has chosen Russian influence and didn't reform their economy. As a result Ukrainian economy is stagnant and at same level as 20 years ago, people are unhappy and frustrated. That's how revolution happens.

If Ukraine splits, at least the Western part will get a big chance to reform, westernize, grow economy in connection with EU, and good chance joining Union in 10-20 years.Poland and other East European countries are still the poorest countries in Europe. I think they will always be the poorest countries in Europe.

Why is that?Since the very first beginning of the European civilization Greece was part of Europe. Actually Greece is the cradle of the European civilization. Nowadays Greece is a fully integrated part of the EU and has an euro as an official currency. If it is going economically bad with Greece that means it is bad for the whole European Union.

Alan
03-03-14, 20:41
Can we find really true natives anymore there?
In lack of true natives Tatars are next on list of longest continues ethnicity there, therefore natives. (at same time being immigrants, lol, Life always throws curveballs)

What if Tatars belonged to Scythian confederation? They have undisputable Scythian cultural character. Ride small horses, shoot same bows, ware same cloths, etc. Well not now of course, but one can see some cultural continuity with Scythians in the past.

Unlikely. When Tatars appeared Scythians were gone already. They likely have absorbed the Scythians and adopted Scythian culture and tactics since as we know Turkic speakers are basically a merging of Iranic groups with Mongols. But this doesn't make them Scythians anyways because they are not a direct ethno-linguistic descend of them. Otherwise we could simply consider Russians as descend of Scythians too because they absorbed allot of them.

Also before it was Tatar it was Iranic (Cimmerian and later Scythian and than Sarmatian). Even Romans and Pontic Kingdom (Iranic, Hellenistic mixed) came before the Tatars.


Taurica was the name of Crimea in antiquity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_antiquity). Taurica was inhabited by a variety of peoples. The inland regions were inhabited by Scythians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians) and the mountainous south coast by the Taures, an offshoot of the Cimmerians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians). Greek settlers inhabited a number of colonies along the coast of the peninsula, notably the city of Chersonesos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chersonesos_Taurica) in modern Sevastopol. In the 2nd[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] century BC the eastern part of Taurica became part of the Bosporan Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosporan_Kingdom), before being incorporated into the Roman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire) in the 1st century BC. During the 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries AD, Taurica was host to Roman legions

According to Wikipedia even the Kievan Rus came before the Tatars (who migrated during the early Middle Ages into the Region).


As I said I would have no problems with a Tatar state on the Crimea but I really don't like the idea of another territory being under influence of arrogant pan Turkic politics. Who are to good to give the same (and even less) rights to their own minorities


If really any of you were in the position to have ever the "chance" to see Turkish political arrogance andhypocrisy in these kind of things you would throw up.

Some people here demand a state for Tatars just because of "some shootings" on civilians. And Turkey just nods in agreement. If this is enough to demand a state for Tatars what can still justify the non existence of at least a Kurdish autonomy in Turkey? A Tatar state would be like presence for Turkey attitude towards their minorities.

LeBrok
03-03-14, 20:57
Poland and other East European countries are still the poorest countries in Europe. I think they will always be the poorest countries in Europe.

What is your reasoning?

Goga
03-03-14, 21:15
What is your reasoning?Because they have no natural resources and no international industry, nothing and will be always dependent on other countries with the natural resources. How will they become rich? Out of air?
Also, I'm looking at the history. Historically speaking Eastern European countries were always the poorest (after the Renaissance & Industrial Revolution), because I guess they were never a 'colonial' power. South European countries like Portugal, Spain had colonies oversea. Also countries like Spain and Portugal have a great (export) market in South America. Northern Italian industry is very advanced. The climate in Greece is very nice, also I believe that Greece can offer Europe much more that the East European countries. Not only the climate in Greece is very lenient and therefore good for tourism and agricultural products etc, also Greece is on the crossroad between Europe and Asia. Very strategic place!

The only chance for the Eastern European countries to become rich is higher education and technology or financial market.

LeBrok
03-03-14, 21:34
The only chance for the Eastern European countries to become rich is higher education and technology or financial market. If you see a chance why you said never?

Anton, Bear's den
03-03-14, 21:46
Russia is like the big bully in the schoolyard. Except, it is the big thug in the international community.

Russia cannot realise that the days of the Soviet Union are over. It's been 23 years, they are over. (Well with the Eurasian Union, they will be ushered in again with Russia, Kazakhstan, Belarus, etc)

They invaded Georgia, and installed two puppet states in Georgian land (South Ossetia, and Abkhazia). Now they have invaded the Ukraine, and it seems that instead of installing a puppet state, they want to reincorporate it into Russia. And they want to do this near the eve of 50 years of Crimea being Ukrainian.

Sorry if disappointed you, but world is not unipolar anymore and history did not stopped like Francis Fukuyama wanted to portray in his book after fall of communism. That's funny how you talk about Russia's sins while your own country built on the bones of Indians. And remind me how many countries became your victims for last 10 years???


The first settlers of Crimea were the Greeks. The Greeks should be given the Crime. They would govern it better, they would incorporate it into the European Union, and they would tolerate, and encourage diversity; both ethnic and linguistic.

According to this logic, I recommend you to give Florida to Spain, Texas & California back to Mexico, other lands which stole your precursors to remnants of Indians which you hold in reservation camps. And don't forget to close the web of CIA secret prisons across the world together with Guantanamo http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif

Goga
03-03-14, 21:53
If you see a chance why you said never?Because if the Eastern European countries try to take over the financial / technology market that would mean that that will come at the expense of the West European countries and Anglo-Saxon & Scandinavian countries will become poorer. I don't think that they would make that happen. When it comes out on money there's no 'brotherhood' of nations and anarchy of survival of the fittest applies as a natural law. Competition is a ..... .

LeBrok
03-03-14, 23:21
Because if the Eastern European countries try to take over the financial / technology market that would mean that that will come at the expense of the West European countries and Anglo-Saxon & Scandinavian countries will become poorer. I don't think that they would make that happen. When it comes out on money there's no 'brotherhood' of nations and anarchy of survival of the fittest applies as a natural law. Competition is a ..... .
You are assuming that there is no other way of growing economically and financially than to take away a portion of rich countries economy. So how was it possible for small Ireland and small Singapore to "steal" from rich and powerful countries? How is it possible to take something away from strong and powerful?

LeBrok
03-03-14, 23:34
Unlikely. When Tatars appeared Scythians were gone already. They likely have absorbed the Scythians and adopted Scythian culture and tactics since as we know Turkic speakers are basically a merging of Iranic groups with Mongols. But this doesn't make them Scythians anyways because they are not a direct ethno-linguistic descend of them. Otherwise we could simply consider Russians as descend of Scythians too because they absorbed allot of them.
I understand your position. I was only carried forward by cultural connection once you mentioned Scythians. Except language, there is strong cultural connection between Tatars and Scythians, as both were nomads from steppes. Slavs were farmers.

martiko
04-03-14, 00:05
I understand your position. I was only carried forward by cultural connection once you mentioned Scythians. Except language, there is strong cultural connection between Tatars and Scythians, as both were nomads from steppes. Slavs were farmers.

absolutely and even today, the slavonic are not breeders, they are essentiellment descendant of farmers and hunter-gatherers.

Coolboygcp
04-03-14, 01:26
LMAO, how old are you? It looks like that you don't know anything about what is going on around the Black Sea. Tatars came to Crimea as immigrants. They have nothing to do with Crimea. Also Turkey is occupying Cyprus (Greece) and Northern Kurdistan. As long as Turkey is occupying Cyprus and Northern Kurdistan Turkey will never join the EU. Also Turks are immigrants to the region like all other Tatars are. They don't belong in Europe.

It is none of your business what my age is. "Tatars came to Crimea as immigrants" The Tatars have been in Crimea since 1441, 563 years! They came long before the Russians did, the Russians only came rather recently! They have much to do with Crimea! As the Greeks and Tatars in Crimea are the only current inhabitants who have been in Crimea over 500 years, the Russians only in the past 250 years.

A Turkish-supported regime is occupying the northern part of Cyprus, this is true. However, Cyprus is not Greece, many people in Cyprus are of Greek descent, but Cyprus and Greece are separate countries. I am of Greek descent, I do not support what is happening in northern Cyprus, Greek and Turkish Cypriots, the Greek government, and the Turkish government are negotiating a settlement between all sides.

As to what you call "Northern Kurdistan", I believe you are referring to southeast Turkey. There is no Northern Kurdistan. This region is a fundamental part of the Turkish state. Your people would be better off being a part of Turkey, than receiving independence; as if you do, Southeastern Turkey would destabilise, and become like Iraq. I am not saying that the Kurdish-majority region(s) of Turkey should not have semi- or fully autonomy, which would be good. In addition, when Turkey joins the EU, Kurds will likely have more cultural and linguistic protection due to various treaties and policies employed by The European Union.

And regarding the statement "Turks are immigrants to the region as Tatars are." We have already established that Tatars are not immigrants. It is true that Turks did emigrate to Anatolia, but this happened very long ago. In addition, since the original people of Anatolia (the Greeks), have been ousted from Anatolia (except for some Greeks which did stay, or have come back to Turkey), it is unlikely that Anatolia would be returned to the Greeks, and it will likely stay Turkish. And I am alright with that, as it has been Turkish for a long time.

Also, I am assuming that you are an immigrant! And a recent one at that, the Kurds have not been in The Netherlands for hundreds or thousands of years! Perhaps a few decades. :grin:

Anyhow, this thread is regarding Crimea, not Turkey, there are other threads that are regarding Turkey.

Alan
04-03-14, 01:40
I understand your position. I was only carried forward by cultural connection once you mentioned Scythians. Except language, there is strong cultural connection between Tatars and Scythians, as both were nomads from steppes. Slavs were farmers.

Somewhere I once red that Iranic tribes (Scythians) were at the beginning farmers too and became herders. breeders are not very different from farmers. breeding is just a second phase of farming in lands which are not suited to traditional farming.

Goga
04-03-14, 01:49
Also, I am assuming that you are an immigrant! And a recent one at that, the Kurds have not been in The Netherlands for hundreds or thousands of years! Perhaps a few decades. :grin:Of course am I. First generation! :grin: And I hope temporary, like my ancestors were 'temporary' immigrants in Russia/Georgia. Outside Kurdistan, Kurds will be always 'immigrants' to their adopted land. Once Kurdistan is established huge Kurdish diaspora in Europe will go back. at this moment Europe is a 'safe haven' for us, the Kurds. We don't try to impose our will to the native people of Europe. We Kurds don't try to steal and Kurdify land of native Europeans, we don't try to convert natives to a different religion, we Kurds don't try to impose our language to native people and eradicate the native people. We're not trying to genocidethe native people of Europe. All those things Turkic thieves did to native people of Eastern Europe and West Asia.

BTW. I assume you’re (most of your ancestors) are immigrants too from Europe who settled in the States. :cool-v:

Coolboygcp
04-03-14, 01:53
Sorry if disappointed you, but world is not unipolar anymore and history did not stopped like Francis Fukuyama wanted to portray in his book after fall of communism. That's funny how you talk about Russia's sins while your own country built on the bones of Indians. And remind me how many countries became your victims for last 10 years???



According to this logic, I recommend you to give Florida to Spain, Texas & California back to Mexico, other lands which stole your precursors to remnants of Indians which you hold in reservation camps. And don't forget to close the web of CIA secret prisons across the world together with Guantanamo http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif

First off, I do not even know who the hell Francis Fukuyama is. Why did you assume I am from the US. I am from there, but it appears that you assumed. I believe the ethnic group you are referring to are Native Americans, or Indigenous Amerians, or Aboriginal Americans. If you are referring to the Indians from India, then the US was not built on their bones, and there are no Indians in reservation camps, Indians only came recently to the US.

If you are referring the native people of the US, then you are also incorrect. The US was built by The British Empire, then when this country stupidly declared independence from them, it was built by various immigrants groups, largely from Europe, and some slaves. The Native Americans are not in "reservation camps", as you say, they are in self-governed, autonomous arras of lands which are named "Native Americaj Reservations", now, yes the name sucks, but it is not a Soviet/Russian death or concentration camp, as you attempt to portray them as.

The Spanish gave Florida to the British. The US took Florida from the British illegally, and the British should get it back. (Though it will never happen.)

California and Texas became of the US legally, and were incorporated to the US willingly, as both were sovereign nations at the time.

The Native Americans are not going to get their land back, it has been too long, and their numbers have dwindled significantly.

The government should close their secret prisons, and Guantanamo too. Just because I have American nationality, does not mean that I support or control the actions of the government, which I do not. I am a European American, and I feel very European, and I identify with European values more that American ones.

What about your country, where your secretly gay President, who in his spare time when he is not declaring war on a country, invading a country, supplying arms to bloodthirsty regimes, supporting dictatorships like his own, and helping to fund completely non-democratic regimes that allow the majority of their citizens to starve, and which have nuclear weapons thanks to Putin, as well as trying to reestablish the empire that Russia lost; rides horses, fishes, and shoots a shotgun amongst other things with his shirt off. Does the man do everything with his shirt off? I suppose he does it to seduce the Russian gay male population.

Also, that photo that you posted is not factual, and all of the regimes in the photo were supported by Russia, funded by Russia, and given arms by Russia!

You need to realise that the Soviet Union is over! It is dead, and is never coming back! Get over it already! And read actual news like the BBC instead of The Voice of Russia and Russia Today! The EU is good, The West is good, and Russia and it's allies are the ones that are bad, the ones that sensible nations in the international community do nit respect, because they are all a group of bullies and assholes.

You need to get unbrainwashed. And I am glad that not all Russian people buy into the propaganda purveyed by the Russian government, as you have. :laughing:

Goga
04-03-14, 02:00
First off, I do not even know who the hell Francis Fukuyama is.OMG, you never heard of Fukuyama? This is general knowledge. If you even just read 1 article (not mentioning a book) about global geopolitics, you would know him. I know enough about you, I hope for you that you're very young. Sorry for bothering you...

Goga
04-03-14, 02:10
You are assuming that there is no other way of growing economically and financially than to take away a portion of rich countries economy. So how was it possible for small Ireland and small Singapore to "steal" from rich and powerful countries? How is it possible to take something away from strong and powerful?Why do you come with such a naive reasoning? Because I'm sure that you know that this reasoning is wrong. Ireland is part of the Anglo-Saxon world. How can you compare Singapore with the East European countries? 2 different worlds! Singapore is a 'distribution land', a main port. One of the most important corridors in East Asia.

Alan
04-03-14, 02:16
It is none of your business what my age is. "Tatars came to Crimea as immigrants" The Tatars have been in Crimea since 1441, 563 years! They came long before the Russians did, the Russians only came rather recently! They have much to do with Crimea! As the Greeks and Tatars in Crimea are the only current inhabitants who have been in Crimea over 500 years, the Russians only in the past 250 years.

A Turkish-supported regime is occupying the northern part of Cyprus, this is true. However, Cyprus is not Greece, many people in Cyprus are of Greek descent, but Cyprus and Greece are separate countries. I am of Greek descent, I do not support what is happening in northern Cyprus, Greek and Turkish Cypriots, the Greek government, and the Turkish government are negotiating a settlement between all sides.

As to what you call "Northern Kurdistan", I believe you are referring to southeast Turkey. There is no Northern Kurdistan. This region is a fundamental part of the Turkish state. Your people would be better off being a part of Turkey, than receiving independence; as if you do, Southeastern Turkey would destabilise, and become like Iraq. I am not saying that the Kurdish-majority region(s) of Turkey should not have semi- or fully autonomy, which would be good. In addition, when Turkey joins the EU, Kurds will likely have more cultural and linguistic protection due to various treaties and policies employed by The European Union.

And regarding the statement "Turks are immigrants to the region as Tatars are." We have already established that Tatars are not immigrants. It is true that Turks did emigrate to Anatolia, but this happened very long ago. In addition, since the original people of Anatolia (the Greeks), have been ousted from Anatolia (except for some Greeks which did stay, or have come back to Turkey), it is unlikely that Anatolia would be returned to the Greeks, and it will likely stay Turkish. And I am alright with that, as it has been Turkish for a long time.

Also, I am assuming that you are an immigrant! And a recent one at that, the Kurds have not been in The Netherlands for hundreds or thousands of years! Perhaps a few decades. :grin:

Anyhow, this thread is regarding Crimea, not Turkey, there are other threads that are regarding Turkey.

A Kurdish state in "Southeast and East Anatolia" (which is actually North Mesopotamia, Transcaucasus and part of the wider iranian plateau) would destabilize the Near East, but a Tatar state on disputed land between Western and Eastern powers would bring peace to the region. Cut me your illogical arguments, it's full of ignorant hypocritical nonsense. The worst part is that delusional people still believe more influence for Turkey means more influence for the West. Kurdistan is the only reason for hope in that on paper drawn country called Iraq. The reason why Iraq is unstable, is because Iraq as such should have never been a country. And it was never stable to begin with. And you talk about autonomy for Kurds in Turkey as if it is something Turkey is even ready to give.

Also you seem to have not much idea about the history of Crimea. The Tatars appeared roughly at 1400 century AD while Crimea was part of the Kievan Rus around 10th to 11th AD.

By the way just to build up some geographic knowledge. This is traditional (original Greek) Anatolia.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/AnatolieLimits.jpg


What you call East and Southeast Anatolia was always part of the Mesopotamian, Iranian and Caucasian empires and never Greek nor Anatolia.

LeBrok
04-03-14, 02:47
Why do you come with such a naive reasoning? Because I'm sure that you know that this reasoning is wrong. Ireland is part of the Anglo-Saxon world. It was always in sphere of Anglo-Saxon influence and yet till 30 years ago Ireland was the poorest country in Europe. How did they do the trick then?
As you see, being in anglo-saxon sphere doesn't make you automatically well off. Your government needs to make sure your economy is good and financial sector adequate. Success will come and nobody is going to stop you. It is nothing better for Germans or Americans than having new market for their cars and other products. They can't sell them to poor countries, can they? They want you to be rich too, then they make even more money. And off course if your economy is good and producing stuff, they will gladly buy your products too.



How can you compare Singapore with the East European countries? 2 different worlds! Singapore is a 'distribution land', a main port. One of the most important corridors in East Asia. It is because someone had an idea and made it happened. There are many other cities/countries/islands in Asia in great geographical locations, and yet it was Singapore to make it happened. How did they got rich? Where did they "steal" the money from. Look into their government economic policies for last 40 years and it will become clear to you. It is there, it is not a secret and nobody is going to stop you.

If you want to argument your points, make sure they make sense.

Coolboygcp
04-03-14, 02:51
Of course am I. First generation! :grin: And I hope temporary, like my ancestors were immigrants to Russia/Georgia. Outside Kurdistan, Kurds will be always 'immigrants' to their adopted land. Once Kurdistan is established huge Kurdish diaspora in Europe will go back. at this moment Europe is a 'safe haven' for us, the Kurds. We don't try to impose our will to the native people of Europe. We Kurds don't try to steal and Kurdify land of native Europeans, we don't try to convert natives to a different religion, we Kurds don't try to impose our language to native people and eradicate the native people. We're not trying to genocidethe native people of Europe. All those things Turkic thieves did to native people of Eastern Europe and West Asia.

BTW. I assume you’re (most of your ancestors) are immigrants too from Europe who settled in the States. :cool-v:
I thought so. :grin:

Kurdistan will probably never be established, but even if it was, Europe will and is much better. It is better infrastructure-wise, healthcare-wise, economically, more stable, and is much safer. Plus, Europe isn't as hot at Kurdistan, even southern Europe isn't that hot.

Perhaps Iraqi Kurdistan will secede, but I doubt it. Why not stay in Europe?

And then you go into your rhetoric again.

The Turks did do many wrong things in the past, but Kurds have as well. There are dozens of Kurdish terrorist organisations which have attempted to create a Kurdish state by force and blood, who have killed many tens thousands of Turks, Europeans, Westerners, and Middle Easterners. Ever heard of the PKK? Many Kurds have tried to force their ideology upon other ethnic groups, including European ones such as Turks. You are incorrect, once again.

On another note, yes, my ancestors came from different European countries, Britain, Ireland, Greek, Norway, Denmark, France, etc who settles in the States. They were probably considered immigrants when they first came here but then, they became "Americans", after time. If you stay in Europe, you will be considered European after some time passes. Though, it is good to retain your unique culture, etc.

Ever try some of the local Dutch foods like vla, poffertjes, borreltjes, hagelslag, speculoos, speculoospasta, etc? They all sound so delicious!

Alan
04-03-14, 02:55
I thought so. :grin:

Kurdistan will probably never be established, but even if it was, Europe will and is much better. It is better infrastructure-wise, healthcare-wise, economically, more stable, and is much safer. Plus, Europe isn't as hot at Kurdistan, even southern Europe isn't that hot.

Perhaps Iraqi Kurdistan will secede, but I doubt it. Why not stay in Europe?

And then you go into your rhetoric again.

The Turks did do many wrong things in the past, but Kurds have as well. There are dozens of Kurdish terrorist organisations which have attempted to create a Kurdish state by force and blood, who have killed many tens thousands of Turks, Europeans, Westerners, and Middle Easterners. Ever heard of the PKK? Many Kurds have tried to force their ideology upon other ethnic groups, including European ones such as Turks. You are incorrect, once again.

On another note, yes, my ancestors came from different European countries, Britain, Ireland, Greek, Norway, Denmark, France, etc who settles in the States. They were probably considered immigrants when they first came here but then, they became "Americans", after time. If you stay in Europe, you will be considered European after some time passes. Though, it is good to retain your unique culture, etc.

Ever try some of the local Dutch foods like vla, poffertjes, borreltjes, hagelslag, speculoos, speculoospasta, etc? They all sound so delicious!


Killed many thousand Turks, Europeans and Middle Easterners? (Turkey is part of the Middle East). Tried to impose our culture on Europeans and others? Isn't being ignorant and lying a reason for being banned? Who told you that stories? Your Turkish friends?

Coolboygcp
04-03-14, 03:00
OMG, you never heard of Fukuyama? This is general knowledge. If you even just read 1 article (not mentioning a book) about global geopolitics, you would know him. I know enough about you, I hope for you that you're very young. Sorry for bothering you...

I have read many articles and books regarding global geopolitics. I looked him up, and I agree with some of his ideas, and disagree with some of them as well. You don't have to be snarky about it, you seem to be brainwashed by PKK propaganda.

Alan
04-03-14, 03:04
I have read many articles and books regarding global geopolitics. I looked him up, and I agree with some of his ideas, and disagree with some of them as well. You don't have to be snarky about it, you seem to be brainwashed by PKK propaganda.


Please provide a source for your claim of thousand of killed Europeans, Turks and other Middle Easterners by Kurds. And also provide a source for your claim that Kurds impose their culture or forcefully assimilate Europeans into their culture. And I will give you sources which show that Turkish nationalist groups like the Grey Wolves are turning German cities into Turkey. And I will give you sources how influential Turkish personalities talk about how makin the Kurds appear like terrorists by smuggling heroin in their homes.

If you don't have any sources, than your words are not worth a cent.

Goga
04-03-14, 03:13
I thought so. :grin:

Kurdistan will probably never be established, but even if it was, Europe will and is much better. It is better infrastructure-wise, healthcare-wise, economically, more stable, and is much safer. Plus, Europe isn't as hot at Kurdistan, even southern Europe isn't that hot.

Perhaps Iraqi Kurdistan will secede, but I doubt it. Why not stay in Europe?

And then you go into your rhetoric again.

The Turks did do many wrong things in the past, but Kurds have as well. There are dozens of Kurdish terrorist organisations which have attempted to create a Kurdish state by force and blood, who have killed many tens thousands of Turks, Europeans, Westerners, and Middle Easterners. Ever heard of the PKK? Many Kurds have tried to force their ideology upon other ethnic groups, including European ones such as Turks. You are incorrect, once again.

On another note, yes, my ancestors came from different European countries, Britain, Ireland, Greek, Norway, Denmark, France, etc who settles in the States. They were probably considered immigrants when they first came here but then, they became "Americans", after time. If you stay in Europe, you will be considered European after some time passes. Though, it is good to retain your unique culture, etc.

Ever try some of the local Dutch foods like vla, poffertjes, borreltjes, hagelslag, speculoos, speculoospasta, etc? They all sound so delicious!Kurdistan has more oil and gas than the whole Europe, Russia and the US combined. But I don't care how poor or rich Kurdistan will be, as long it will be free and liberated from Arabic, Persian and Turkic occupiers.

I’m very grateful to Dutch people who accepted me into their society and gave me everything, while Kurds don't even have the basic human rights on their native land and land of their ancestors. At this moment the Netherlands is my new home, I spent most of my life in the Netherland and I'm loyal to the Dutch constitution. As long as I'm alive I will try to do all the best for this great country. But Kurdistan was, is and always will be my homeland. To me it is a magical and mythical world where all my ancestors are from. My roots, my soul is from Kurdistan. It has a unique place in my heart and that place is unreplaceable. Kurdistan ismy religion. For me Kurdistan is more important than my parents and even the GOD almighty himself. My soul will not rest until Kurdistan is fully liberated from the occupiers!

You're very multi cultural, much more than I'm, hahaha.

Alan
04-03-14, 03:15
Since you don't have sources let me provide one.

Fetullah Gülen, who is one of the most influential persons in Turkey and who has currently a dispute over power with Erdogan (his influence goes beyong high positions in the Turkish secret service. He is that influential that he could place a recorder in Erdogans room and than snip his statements together to use them against Erdogan).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNMkN0GnBys

Coolboygcp
04-03-14, 03:16
Killed many thousand Turks, Europeans and Middle Easterners? (Turkey is part of the Middle East). Tried to impose our culture on Europeans and others? Isn't being ignorant and a liar a reason for being banned? Who told you that stories? Your Turkish friends?

Kurd

Turkey is a part of Europe and Asia, and is different than Middle Eastern nations. I am not ignorant, it appears that you are the one that is ignorant, my friend. Who told me "that stories"? Reputable sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish–Turkish_conflict

That link for example. And I quote:


The Kurdish–Turkish conflict[note] is an armed conflict between the Republic of Turkey and various Kurdish insurgent groups,[62] which have demanded separation from Turkey to create an independent Kurdistan,[45][63] or to have autonomy[64][65] and greater political and cultural rights for Kurds inside the Republic of Turkey.[66] The main rebel group is the Kurdistan Workers' Party[67] or PKK (Kurdish: Partiya Karkerên Kurdistan), which is considered a terrorist organisation by Turkey, the United States,[68] the European Union[69] and NATO.[70][71] Although insurgents have carried out attacks in many regions of Turkey,[72] the insurgency is mainly in southeastern Turkey.[73] The PKK's military presence in Iraq's Kurdistan Region, from which it launches attacks on Turkey, has resulted in the Turkish military carrying out frequent ground incursions and air and artillery strikes in the region,[74] because the Kurdistan Regional Government claims it does not have sufficient military forces to prevent the PKK from operating.[75] The conflict has particularly affected Turkey's tourism industry[76] and has cost the Economy of Turkey an estimated 300 to 450 billion dollars.[77]

6,653 killed[46][47]
13,327 wounded[48] (On the Turkish side)

Civilian Casualties:
5,687 killed (Turkish claim)[46]
18,000 killed (independent estimate)[51]
Additional 20,000 killed by unknown assailants[48]
Additional 18,000 executed (independent estimate)[52] 7,620 wounded (Turkish claim)[48]
17,000 missing[53][54]
3,000,000+ displaced[55]

Former French ambassador to Turkey Eric Rouleau states:[235]
According to the Turkish Ministry of Justice, along with the 30,000 people killed in military campaigns, 22,500 Turkish Politicians were assassinated between 1984, when the conflict began, and 1998. An additional 1,000 people were reportedly assassinated in the first nine months of 1999.
Abuses by the PKK[edit]
Human Rights Watch has stated the following about the tactics of the PKK::
Consequently, all economic, political, military, social and cultural organizations, institutions, formations—and those who serve in them—have become targets. The entire country has become a battlefield.
The PKK also promised to "liquidate" or "eliminate" political parties, "imperialist" cultural and educational institutions, legislative and representative bodies, and "all local collaborators and agents working for the Republic of Turkey."[236]
Many who died were unarmed civilians, caught in the middle between the PKK and security forces, targeted for attacks by inevitably, PKK suicide bombers.[237]
According to Amnesty International, the PKK killed and tortured Kurdish peasants and its own members in the 1980s. A number of Kurds have been abducted and killed because they were suspected of being "collaborators" or "informers" and it was a common practice for the PKK to kill their whole families.[238]
According to a 1996 report by Amnesty International, "in January 1996 the [Turkish] government announced that the PKK had massacred 11 men near the remote village of Güçlükonak. Seven of the victims were members of the local village guard force".

The PKK was said to be responsible for the other 11,851 people deaths. A total of 13,327 soldiers and 7,620 civilians are said to have been wounded and an additional 20,000 civilians killed by unknown assailants.[48] Only 2,500 people were said to have been killed between 1984 and 1991, while over 17,500 were killed between 1991 and 1995[239]


Research before you accuse someone of ignorance. :win:

Goga
04-03-14, 03:24
It was always in sphere of Anglo-Saxon influence and yet till 30 years ago Ireland was the poorest country in Europe. How did they do the trick then?
[/FONT]As you see, being in anglo-saxon sphere doesn't make you automatically well off. Your government needs to make sure your economy is good and financial sector adequate. Success will come and nobody is going to stop you. It is nothing better for Germans or Americans than having new market for their cars and other products. They can't sell them to poor countries, can they? They want you to be rich too, then they make even more money. And off course if your economy is good and producing stuff, they will gladly buy your products too.


[FONT=verdana] It is because someone had an idea and made it happened. There are many other cities/countries/islands in Asia in great geographical locations, and yet it was Singapore to make it happened. How did they got rich? Where did they "steal" the money from. Look into their government economic policies for last 40 years and it will become clear to you. It is there, it is not a secret and nobody is going to stop you.

If you want to argument your points, make sure they make sense.Sorry, but you don't make any sense! Since the colonization by the British Empire Singapore became a very special place. Even before that it was a important business center. Like Hong Kong.
Like I said earlier Ireland is part of Anglo-Saxon world. Ireland has very close ties with the US (Irish immigrants in the States), speaks the same language, has the same values & culture. Because of the close ties with the US Ireland doesn’t have to fear anything (in relation with their economic policies, like low taxes) from England nor the USA.

Ike
04-03-14, 03:31
And read actual news like the BBC instead of The Voice of Russia and Russia Today! The EU is good, The West is good, and Russia and it's allies are the ones that are bad, the ones that sensible nations in the international community do nit respect, because they are all a group of bullies and assholes.

So, why is then EU and West supporting people that are wearing symbols that resemble Nazi Germany symbols?
I accept the theory that it could be coincidence, and that this is just an AC/DC style rock'n'roll symbol...

http://globalresearch.ca/images/patriot_m.JPG

LeBrok
04-03-14, 04:33
Sorry, but you don't make any sense! Since the colonization by the British Empire Singapore became a very special place. Even before that it was a important business center. Like Hong Kong. Yes and India was in British Empire and special place of a billion people. Why they are not rich?
Special place, yep, that's your economy bordering mysticism.


Like I said earlier Ireland is part of Anglo-Saxon world. Ireland has very close ties with the US (Irish immigrants in the States), speaks the same language, has the same values & culture. Because of the close ties with the US Ireland doesn’t have to fear anything (in relation with their economic policies, like low taxes) from England nor the USA. So explain to us why this special Anglo-saxon country was poor till 80s? And what do we need to fear? What do Poland need to fear from US or England? Just keep in mind that Polish, Czech, Slovak, Lithuanien and few other economies of easter europen countries grew 3 fold in last 25 years. That's very fast by economic standards and it means they catching up to the west.
I don't see any sign of holding them back, do you?
Amazing stories you tell, more special places...

LeBrok
04-03-14, 04:42
So, why is then EU and West supporting people that are wearing symbols that resemble Nazi Germany symbols?
I accept the theory that it could be coincidence, and that this is just an AC/DC style rock'n'roll symbol...

I'm pretty sure we can find fascists in Serbia and any other European country. Does this mean we have to condemn the whole nation because of few?
Looks like you are a big hypocrite!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TRjwkCPcQgQ/Tegbat0LcgI/AAAAAAAADIU/6xr9RWQeDcI/s640/art_mladicboy.jpg

http://www.novosti.rs/upload/thumbs/images/2009/09sep/2509/dru-Obraz_310x186.jpg

Coolboygcp
04-03-14, 04:46
So, why is then EU and West supporting people that are wearing symbols that resemble Nazi Germany symbols?
I accept the theory that it could be coincidence, and that this is just an AC/DC style rock'n'roll symbol...

http://globalresearch.ca/images/patriot_m.JPG

The better question is why is Russia treating gays and minorities like the Nazis treated the Jews? :grin:

Coolboygcp
04-03-14, 04:51
Yes and India was in British Empire and special place of a billion people. Why they are not rich?
Special place, yep, that's your economy bordering mysticism.

So explain to us why this special Anglo-saxon country was poor till 80s? And what do we need to fear? What do Poland need to fear from US or England? Just keep in mind that Polish, Czech, Slovak, Lithuanien and few other economies of easter europen countries grew 3 fold in last 25 years. That's very fast by economic standards and it means they catching up to the west.
I don't see any sign of holding them back, do you?
Amazing stories you tell, more special places...
If India was still British, it would probably be rich, but they left the British Empire, which was the stupidest decision in the history of India. Had they stayed in the empire, it would not have collapsed, and the world would be much better off. Even your country LeBrok, Canada would be better off.

Coolboygcp
04-03-14, 04:55
Since you don't have sources let me provide one.

Fetullah Gülen, who is one of the most influential persons in Turkey and who has currently a dispute over power with Erdogan (his influence goes beyong high positions in the Turkish secret service. He is that influential that he could place a recorder in Erdogans room and than snip his statements together to use them against Erdogan).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNMkN0GnBys

Always with Gülen! Everything that happens in Turkey from Gezi Square, to the phonetap scandal is blamed on Gülen! This man cannot do all of these things!

Goga
04-03-14, 04:55
Yes and India was in British Empire and special place of a billion people. Why they are not rich?
Special place, yep, that's your economy bordering mysticism.

So explain to us why this special Anglo-saxon country was poor till 80s? And what do we need to fear? What do Poland need to fear from US or England? Just keep in mind that Polish, Czech, Slovak, Lithuanien and few other economies of easter europen countries grew 3 fold in last 25 years. That's very fast by economic standards and it means they catching up to the west.
I don't see any sign of holding them back, do you?
Amazing stories you tell, more special places...When you had almost no economy and transfer from closed economy to a free market such a relative (in percentage) grow is not an exception!

I'll tell you what will happen if Western Ukraine will become part of the 'Western' world. IMF will lend some money to Ukraine to finance all the necessary and primary things in the country, like the police force. But it will be hard for Ukraine from the very beginning, since it will not get cheap or free gas from Russia. Before this conflict Russia gave gas and oil to Ukraine. After Western Ukraine becomes some how stable the borders will disappear and a lot very poor and cheap Ukrainian labours will look for work in the West European countries. Like it happened to Bulgaria, Romania etc. some countries in the Baltics became pretty wealthy, but countries like Bulgaria, Romania, Ukraine will nevers be wealthy countries since they don't have natural recourses and have nothing to offer to the European community. Ukraine is not better than Bulgaria, Romania, Albania, Kosovo etc. Such countries will always be the sick men of Europe, always dependent on rich countries in Europe, you like it or not!

Alan
04-03-14, 05:12
Turkey is a part of Europe and Asia, and is different than Middle Eastern nations. I am not ignorant, it appears that you are the one that is ignorant, my friend. Who told me "that stories"? Reputable sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish–Turkish_conflict

That link for example. And I quote:



Research before you accuse someone of ignorance. :win:


PKK is not an excuse against a Kurdish state. Your arguments could come directly from a uneducated Teenage boy. PKK might killed some people but do you really claim the number of killed individuals by PKK even slightly reach that of the Turkish state? If we consider the PKK "terrorist" because these casualties, what are we going to consider Turkey for the 3000 destroyed villages and millions of forcefully resettled Kurds and hundred thousands of killed Kurds?



And once again I repeat, where is your source for the statement that Kurds killed thousands of Europeans.

You sure ain't a radical Turk? I ask because this grade of ignorance was only observed among these kind of people.


I think you should take your own advise and research better instead on posting selective nonsense as usual.

Coolboygcp
04-03-14, 05:13
When you had almost no economy and transfer from closed economy to a free market such a relative (in percentage) grow is not an exception!

I'll tell you what will happen if Western Ukraine will become part of the 'Western' world. IMF will lend some money to Ukraine to finance all the necessary and primary things in the country, like the police force. But it will be hard for Ukraine from the very beginning, since it will not get cheap or free gas from Russia. Before this conflict Russia gave gas and oil to Ukraine. After Western Ukraine becomes some how stable the borders will disappear and a lot very poor and cheap Ukrainian labours will look for work in the West European countries. Like it happened to Bulgaria, Romania etc. some countries in the Baltics became pretty wealthy, but countries like Bulgaria, Romania, Ukraine will nevers be wealthy countries since they don't have natural recourses and have nothing to offer to the European community. Ukraine is not better than Bulgaria, Romania, Albania, Kosovo etc. Such countries will always be the sick men of Europe, always dependent on rich countries in Europe, you like it or not!

Ukraine has a lot of resources. In the east they have huge coal fields, and in the Black Sea there are huge gas fields that are in Ukraine's territorial waters. If Ukraine harvested these resources, they would have a lot of money! (Though, they will have to get Crimea back to get the gas fields, and keep east Ukraine for the coal).

Also, I was watching Al Jazeera, and there was a commander in the Russian military who was stationed in Crimea, and he said that they were going to be there until 30 March, when they have the referendum concerning the future of the Crimea, and after that they would go back to Russia.

Additionally, Ukraine has recently called a draft on all men under 40, and they have declared war on Russia, so I don't think Russia is leaving on 30 March.

Alan
04-03-14, 05:20
Always with Gülen! Everything that happens in Turkey from Gezi Square, to the phonetap scandal is blamed on Gülen! This man cannot do all of these things!

This guy was caught to have deep ties to the Turkish Secret Service. He installed a recorder in the Prime Ministers room. Or do you believe it was Erdogan himself you genius? This Guy has billions of Dollars, thousands of Schools around the World where he teaches and preaches Turkish type of Islam.

Coolboygcp
04-03-14, 05:22
PKK is not an excuse against a Kurdish state. Your arguments could come directly from a uneducated Teenage boy. PKK might killed some people but do you really claim the number of killed individuals by the Turkish state even slightly reach that of the PKK? If we consider the PKK "terrorist" because these casualties, what are we going to consider Turkey for the 3000 destroyed villages and millions of forcefully resettled Kurds and hundreds of thousand killed Kurds?



And once again I repeat, where is your source for the statement that Kurds killed thousands of Europeans.

You sure ain't a radical Turk? I ask because this grade of ignorance was only observed among these kind of people.


I think you should take your own advise and research better instead on posting selective nonsense as usual.
I never said that Kurds killed thousands of Europeans what I said that they have killed tens of thousands of Turks, Europeans, Westerners, and Middle Easterners. They have even killed other Kurds.

Now, I am not saying all or even most Kurds are extremists, however there are Kurdish terrorist organisations, and many in fact. I never said Turkish authorities didn't do anything bad or wrong. Both sides have done wrong things, and neither are right. But the PKK seems to be the instigator.

Additionally, I am not a Turk, not in the least regard. Are you sure you aren't a radical Kurd?

Coolboygcp
04-03-14, 05:23
This guy was caught to have deep ties to the Turkish Secret Service. He installed a recorder in the Prime Ministers room. Or do you believe it was Erdogan himself you genius? This Guy has billions of Dollars, thousands of Schools around the World where he teaches and preaches Turkish type of Islam.

Do you have any sources, no you do not. All of this is conjecture, and none of it has been proven. Why has it not been proven, because it is a myth!

LeBrok
04-03-14, 05:29
When you had almost no economy and transfer from closed economy to a free market such a relative (in percentage) grow is not an exception!
What are you talking about, what is closed economy?
I'm glad you admired the exceptional east European's countries growth. Do you mean nobody is holding them back? Good, they might be well off in next 25 years. Far cry from your "Never".
From "nothing" to half of German per capita GDP in 25 years. I don't think they qualifies as poor anymore.



I'll tell you what will happen if Western Ukraine will become part of the 'Western' world. IMF will lend some money to Ukraine to finance all the necessary and primary things in the country, like the police force. But it will be hard for Ukraine from the very beginning, since it will not get cheap or free gas from Russia.
What?! You just said that from nothing countries grow fast.
Here is your quote:

When you had almost no economy and transfer from closed economy to a free market such a relative (in percentage) grow is not an exception!



Before this conflict Russia gave gas and oil to Ukraine. After Western Ukraine becomes some how stable the borders will disappear and a lot very poor and cheap Ukrainian labours will look for work in the West European countries.
It's time they used there own shale gas.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_KhYSMofQxo/T8dHlp7lRGI/AAAAAAAAAFI/K_Y8x-8VDvs/s1600/fracking%2B02.jpg



Like it happened to Bulgaria, Romania etc. some countries in the Baltics became pretty wealthy, but countries like Bulgaria, Romania, Ukraine will nevers be wealthy countries since they don't have natural recourses and have nothing to offer to the European community. Ukraine is not better than Bulgaria, Romania, Albania, Kosovo etc. Such countries will always be the sick men of Europe, always dependent on rich countries in Europe, you like it or not!
Look at the map again. I'm glad your opinion can't influence future of many countries. Can you imagine becoming a president of new independent country "Kurdistan". In your inaugural speech you proclame: We always be poor, we have nothing, there is no hope for us, we are not anglo-saxon, they won't let us be successful, only anglo-saxon and special countries win, etc, etc".
Do you see doom and gloom you are spewing?

Coolboygcp
04-03-14, 05:30
A Kurdish state in "Southeast and East Anatolia" (which is actually North Mesopotamia, Transcaucasus and part of the wider iranian plateau) would destabilize the Near East, but a Tatar state on disputed land between Western and Eastern powers would bring peace to the region. Cut me your illogical arguments, it's full of ignorant hypocritical nonsense. The worst part is that delusional people still believe more influence for Turkey means more influence for the West. Kurdistan is the only reason for hope in that on paper drawn country called Iraq. The reason why Iraq is unstable, is because Iraq as such should have never been a country. And it was never stable to begin with. And you talk about autonomy for Kurds in Turkey as if it is something Turkey is even ready to give.

Also you seem to have not much idea about the history of Crimea. The Tatars appeared roughly at 1400 century AD while Crimea was part of the Kievan Rus around 10th to 11th AD.

By the way just to build up some geographic knowledge. This is traditional (original Greek) Anatolia.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/AnatolieLimits.jpg


What you call East and Southeast Anatolia was always part of the Mesopotamian, Iranian and Caucasian empires and never Greek nor Anatolia.
Again, you need to research before you say this crap. Behold.

6282

Alan
04-03-14, 05:31
I never said that Kurds killed thousands of Europeans what I said that they have killed tens of thousands of Turks, Europeans, Westerners, and Middle Easterners. They have even killed other Kurds.

Now, I am not saying all or even most Kurds are extremists, however there are Kurdish terrorist organisations, and many in fact. I never said Turkish authorities didn't do anything bad or wrong. Both sides have done wrong things, and neither are right. But the PKK seems to be the instigator.

Additionally, I am not a Turk, not in the least regard. Are you sure you aren't a radical Kurd?

No my friend what you tried to do was "Imply" that Kurds killed considerable number of Europeans. To make it look more dramatic in the European viewers eye. The number of "killed Europeans" by Kurds doesn't exceed that of a dozen. You are simply trying to dramatize it by putting Europeans into the counting.


Sorry but I don't buy that statements in my eyes you are clearly a Kurd hater who tries to generalize what happened to us with comparing them to casualties during a war between the Turkish state and the PKK. And worst of all you are hypocritical, you demand something for one side but don't support the same rights on the other.

I am done with you in this thread. You can keep your "sympathy" for yourself and have a nice day.

Alan
04-03-14, 05:33
Again, you need to research before you say this crap. Behold.

6282

Man just stop it here. You claimed Anatolia is Greek based on SETTLEMENTS. I argued that "Eastern Anatolia" was not part of the traditional Greek SETTLEMENTS. And now you with your "knowledge" come up with the map of an empire. Empire does not equal SETTLEMENTS. Otherwise your argument that Anatolia is Greek wouldn't be valid anymore. Since Anatolia was conquered dozen times by non Greek people.

Otherwise I could simply show these maps here.

http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Images2/Maps/median_empire_map.gif
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Near_East_1400_BCE.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Map_of_the_Achaemenid_Empire.jpg
And your argument that Anatolia is Greek would become invalid. But I know that an empire does not equal to settlements.

LeBrok
04-03-14, 05:40
Gentlemen, I know that there is no saint ethnicity or a country. We all did things that we are ashamed off and should apologies to others. Please let's not condemn any country or ethnicity because of old sins or bad few who might be considered terrorists of fascists.
Let's act like friends discussing difficult issues.
It is ok to be firm on issue (sometime we sound harsh) but let's be respectful and for lack of better word civilized.

Coolboygcp
04-03-14, 05:48
No my friend what you tried to do was "Imply" that Kurds killed considerable number of Europeans. To make it look more dramatic in the European viewers eye. The number of "killed Europeans" by Kurds doesn't exceed that of a dozen. You are simply trying to dramatize it.


Sorry but I don't buy that statements in my eyes you are clearly a Kurd hater who tries to generalize what happened to us with comparing them to casualties during a war between the Turkish state and the PKK. And worst of all you are hypocritical, you demand something for one side but don't support the same rights on the other.

I am done with you in this thread. You can keep your "sympathy" for yourself and have a nice day.
I did not try to imply that.

I am not a Kurd hater. I have never had a bad experience with a Kurd prior to you. I really liked Kurds, and I thought highly of them. I still do, you are probably just a bad apple compared to the informed, intelligent, nice Kurds that I know.

I am not hypocritical. There is a difference between the situations of the Kurds, the Crimeans, the Tatars, and the Greeks. Because of your hate towards Turkey you have derailed this thread into talk about Turkey and Kurds. I thought this was about Crimea and Ukraine!

Some people you cannot reason with, and it appears that you are one of them. Because of your hate towards Europeans, Turks, and myself, you post derogatory statements directed towards me.

I am done with you. :victory:

Coolboygcp
04-03-14, 05:51
Gentlemen, I know that there is no saint ethnicity or a country. We all did things that we are ashamed off and should apologies to others. Please let's not condemn any country or ethnicity because of old sins or bad few who might be considered terrorists of fascists.
Let's act like friends discussing difficult issues.
It is ok to be firm on issue (sometime we sound harsh) but let's be respectful and for lack of better word civilized.

:bravo: :beer:

Goga
04-03-14, 06:01
[/FONT][/COLOR]What are you talking about, what is closed economy?
I'm glad you admired the exceptional east European's countries growth. Do you mean nobody is holding them back? Good, they might be well off in next 25 years. Far cry from your "Never".
From "nothing" to half of German per capita GDP in 25 years. I don't think they qualifies as poor anymore.

What?! You just said that from nothing countries grow fast.
Why are you playing games with me? You know what I mean! If your per capita GDP is 1,000 and it will grow to 3,000 and if in other more developed countries it was 40,000 and is growing to 60,000, the absolute grow in developed countries is MUCH bigger than in poor countries, while the relative grow in poor countries is much higher. from 40,000 to 60,000 is 20,000! from 1,000 to 3,000 is 2,000. 2,000 is TEN times less than 20,000. While at the same time the grow from 1,000 to 3,000 is 300% (3 times more), while grow from 40,000 to 60,000 is 50% (1/2 times more).

So relative grow (in percentage) can be very misleading especially in very poor countries!

What if new so called 'puppet' leaders (with private interests like hunger for money) of formal Russia allied countries are corrupt and egocentric those who deceive (and use) their own people and work for the West (the US, Germany) only to harm Russia and not to make their own nation more wealthy?

LeBrok
04-03-14, 07:16
Why are you playing games with me? You know what I mean! If your per capita GDP is 1,000 and it will grow to 3,000 and if in other more developed countries it was 40,000 and is growing to 60,000, the absolute grow in developed countries is MUCH bigger than in poor countries, while the relative grow in poor countries is much higher. from 40,000 to 60,000 is 20,000! from 1,000 to 3,000 is 2,000. 2,000 is TEN times less than 20,000. While at the same time the grow from 1,000 to 3,000 is 300% (3 times more), while grow from 40,000 to 60,000 is 50% (1/2 times more).

So relative grow (in percentage) can be very misleading especially in very poor countries!

We are talking about Easter Europe and particularly Poland. Poland grew from 7k per capita to 21 thousand in 25 years (not easy as from 1,000 to 3,000), Ukraine didn't move at all, being stuck in old socialistic ways. Poland now is at half of German GDP per capita. Same with many Eastern European countries. You called them poor and never able to get to Western Europe level. Do you still think so? Did you had more time to analyze the numbers?
Mind you that you used therms "Never" and "Poor", that's why this discussion started.


What if new so called 'puppet' leaders (with private interests like hunger for money) of formal Russia allied countries are corrupt and egocentric those who deceive (and use) their own people and work for the West (the US, Germany) only to harm Russia and not to make their own nation more wealthy?
Why you are so concerned with a hypothetical scenario. Do you have anything substantial in mind?
I'm not sure if you didn't noticed that since cold war ended nobody in the west is competing with Russia in any way. Russia became second tier player with it's 2-3 trillion economy. China and Brazil became more important to the world with bigger economies than Russia. EU and US are 16 trillion economies each, together 32 trillion! Russia is now like a spoiled child looking for world attention, cutting off gas or attacking it's neighbors. "We used to be a big power, the world shakers, now nobody gives a damn. Our pride is hurt. Common, we are Russians, pay attention to us!"
These are typical maneuvers of dictatorships (Putin), to create external enemies and blame them for every problem Russia is facing. Did even one Russian (Ukrainian citizen of Russian ethnicity) died to justify invasion on Ukraine? I'm sure Putin used it to show Russians that he is the big leader.
There is not much gain from invading Crimea. Putin could spend another 50 billion (winter Olympic budget) and move military base to Russian shores. Probably for much less. A small price to pay to avoid a war and have a good friendly neighbor.
In short, nobody wants to hurt Russia. West doesn't want any economical disturbances. It is not good for business. All West wants from Russia is not to do any crazy moves. Russia knows about this, probably wants oil prices to go up (because of conflict). Putin shows Russians that he is a savior of the nation and will make a profit on oil and gas.

Tell me why Russia doesn't care for good neighbors? Except Belarus, they are all almost "enemies", all the way from Finland to Japan.

Coolboygcp
04-03-14, 07:41
[/FONT][/COLOR]
We are talking about Easter Europe and particularly Poland. Poland grew from 7k per capita to 21 thousand in 25 years (not easy as from 1,000 to 3,000), Ukraine didn't move at all, being stuck in old socialistic ways. Poland now is at half of German GDP per capita. Same with many Eastern European countries. You called them poor and never able to get to Western Europe level. Do you still think so? Did you had more time to analyze the numbers?
Mind you that you used therms "Never" and "Poor", that's why this discussion started.

[COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana]
Why you are so concerned with a hypothetical scenario. Do you have anything substantial in mind?
I'm not sure if you didn't noticed that since cold war ended nobody in the west is competing with Russia in any way. Russia became second tier player with it's 2-3 trillion economy. China and Brazil became more important to the world with bigger economies than Russia. EU and US are 16 trillion economies each, together 32 trillion! Russia is now like a spoiled child looking for world attention, cutting off gas or attacking it's neighbors. "We used to be a big power, the world shakers, now nobody gives a damn. Our pride is hurt. Common, we are Russians, pay attention to us!"
These are typical maneuvers of dictatorships (Putin), to create external enemies and blame them for every problem Russia is facing. Did even one Russian (Ukrainian citizen of Russian ethnicity) died to justify invasion on Ukraine? I'm sure Putin used it to show Russians that he is the big leader.
There is not much gain from invading Crimea. Putin could spend another 50 billion (winter Olympic budget) and move military base to Russian shores. Probably for much less. A small price to pay to avoid a war and have a good friendly neighbor.
In short, nobody wants to hurt Russia. West doesn't want any economical disturbances. It is not good for business. All West wants from Russia is not to do any crazy moves. Russia knows about this, probably wants oil prices to go up (because of conflict). Putin shows Russians that he is a savior of the nation and will make a profit on oil and gas.

Tell me why Russia doesn't care for good neighbors? Except Belarus, they are all almost "enemies", all the way from Finland to Japan.

:bravo:

Bravo! Bravissimo! I agree completely!

Russia needs to realise no one cares about it anymore! It is like if the Mongolians said "We had the Mongol Empire, the largest contiguous land empire in history! It was only 650 years ago! Aren't we a superpower still?"

The Soviet Union is dead. Heck, Indonesia is probably a more important country than Russia is at this point!

Ike
04-03-14, 14:36
I'm pretty sure we can find fascists in Serbia and any other European country. Does this mean we have to condemn the whole nation because of few?
Looks like you are a big hypocrite!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TRjwkCPcQgQ/Tegbat0LcgI/AAAAAAAADIU/6xr9RWQeDcI/s640/art_mladicboy.jpg

http://www.novosti.rs/upload/thumbs/images/2009/09sep/2509/dru-Obraz_310x186.jpg

1. These are not fascists. These are nationalists, but they are anti-fascist. Anyway their organization was forbidden in 2012, and they were persecuted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obraz_(organization)

Yes, we also have a groups of neo-nazis, but of course they are not allowed to go in public. Several groups that exhibited anti-Jewish or Hitler-loving behavior were banned by the Supreme court, and their members are now in jail:
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/society.php?yyyy=2011&mm=06&dd=03&nav_id=74727



2. Interesting word you have used hypocrisy. Especially because there is a parallel between Serbian and Ukrainian nazi groups, but EU is supporting Ukrainian ones, while doing it's best to repress Serbian ones. So why such behavior? I thought we were supposed to fight against these plagues wherever they are?

Ike
04-03-14, 14:44
The better question is why is Russia treating gays and minorities like the Nazis treated the Jews? :grin:

You really think we are all idiots? Is this the way how you debate to resolve a problem?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring

Alan
04-03-14, 14:51
I didn't wanted to flood this thread but since some individual who made accusations like "Kurds killed Europeans" and "Kurds forcefully impose their culture on the native population of their host stages" and than tried to generalize the cruelty made on Kurds by the state of Turkey in one century by comparing it to some casualties which happened during war between PKK and the Turkish state. And reporting this extremely one sided for his beloved Turkey.

I needed to clarify some thing. Since he started talking about the "unresolved" murders in Turkey.


In 1993, the parliament formed a commission (Turkish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_language): Faili Meçhul Cinayetleri Araştırma Komisyonu) to investigate the numerous unsolved murders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsolved_murders) believed to be perpetrated by the Counter-Guerrilla. Their report enumerated 1797 such deaths; 316 in 1992 and 314 in 1993 alone. General Güreş contacted the Speaker of Parliament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaker_of_Parliament), Hüsamettin Cindoruk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%BCsamettin_Cindoruk), to stop the investigation in order to prevent the outing of his men.[43] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Guerrilla#cite_note-43) Meanwhile, State Security Court (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Security_Court_%28Turkey%29) prosecutor Nusret Demiral ordered the police force not to co-operate with the parliamentary commission in solving the crimes.

Since several years it is well known that Turkish MIT agents, dressed as PKK attacked, killed and kidnapped civilians to bring the Kurdish population against it.


In 2009 a Turkish soldier was captured throwing a bomb into a book store and running away. The people managed to capture him and found a plan of targets with him and his passport. They handed him over to the Turkish state but the state instead of putting him in Jail, let him go and the Chief of the Turkish General Staff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_of_the_Turkish_General_Staff) of the Turkish armed forces said "I know him he is a good guy". So if the Chief calls a murder who was bombing Kurdish neighbor hoods a "good guy" what can I expect from the whole Security Service?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eq7aB-KLH4


But I know this would have been too much to research so better report one sided for the state you are trying to protect.


There are dozens of more stories like this, but I am not going any deeper into it. If I wanted I could start by Dersim Massacre and go on with Roboski and many more. But this would go too much of topic.

Nobody1
04-03-14, 15:23
Concerning what has been said in the German news; The Krim Tatars are pro-Ukraine and do not desire an own/indi. state; But app. there is a potential that the conflict could escalate into another Chechnya (religiously);

I also ask myself of the Western Media reporting towards Russia and Russian policies; What is however obvious is that the EU is not capable of doing anything productive; The celebrated contract last week between Yanukovych was de-facto worthless just 24h later; Someone must help and support the negotiations and coming together process between the Ukrainians themselves (East/West) first - before the Ukrainians can negotiate (after May elections and new Gov.) with Russia and EU;

Aberdeen
04-03-14, 15:47
.................

So explain to us why this special Anglo-saxon country was poor till 80s? And what do we need to fear? What do Poland need to fear from US or England? Just keep in mind that Polish, Czech, Slovak, Lithuanien and few other economies of easter europen countries grew 3 fold in last 25 years. That's very fast by economic standards and it means they catching up to the west.
I don't see any sign of holding them back, do you?
Amazing stories you tell, more special places...

I can explain why Ireland was so poor until the late 20th century. Ireland was conquered by the English about 500 years ago and its people were horribly abused, slaughtered or shipped off to the West Indies in slavery, and Ireland was carved up into estates for absentee English landlords. It took centuries of rebellion to push the English out of most of Ireland, and they still control Northern Ireland. Even in the early 20th century, the notorious Black and Tans would go into the villages and shoot unarmed young men whenever there was some kind of rebellion in the area. Then the Irish finally got their freedom for most of Ireland after WW I, but it took a few decades for Ireland to become prosperous.

I do agree with you that a country doesn't need lots of natural resources in order to become prosperous if it's well run. The best example is Japan - it's a small island with few resources and a lot of people but, even with its current economic problems, it's still much more prosperous than its neighbours.

Aberdeen
04-03-14, 16:00
:bravo:

Bravo! Bravissimo! I agree completely!

Russia needs to realise no one cares about it anymore! It is like if the Mongolians said "We had the Mongol Empire, the largest contiguous land empire in history! It was only 650 years ago! Aren't we a superpower still?"

The Soviet Union is dead. Heck, Indonesia is probably a more important country than Russia is at this point!

I don't mean to sound rude or unfriendly, but to me, your grasp of history and geopolitics seems somewhat tenuous. Russia is still a large and dangerous country, they do have control over Crimea now, and there are now pro-Russian demonstrations going on in other parts of eastern Ukraine, just as I predicted. There is a danger that war might break out between Russia and the Ukraine, and if it does, the whole world is in danger. Crimea and the other parts of south eastern Ukraine have belonged to Russia (among others) in the past, and Russia considers that area its territory. It's a very dangerous situation.

Some of your other remarks don't make too much sense to me, such as your saying that Texas and California joined the U.S. willingly. The U.S. stole Texas and California from Spain after first having puppet governments created by U.S. citizens fight the Spanish for control, and the Spanish stole those territories from Native people. Perhaps you should study history more. And, while many of us have used Wikipedia as a quick source of details about some subject, I wouldn't quote it as an authoritative source. Articles are written by individuals, and different individuals have different agendas, as this thread shows.

FBS
04-03-14, 18:11
A new turn, blackmailing from Putin (I do not think that Ike will like this:thinking:):

"Putin's new relativism over non-interference and inviolability of borders raised incidentally the prospect of a possible geopolitical trade-off. He drew a parallel between Crimea and Kosovo. Moscow has thus far staunchly refused to recognise Kosovo's independence from its ally, Serbia. Today, the president seemed to raise the possibility that he might accept Kosovo if the west accepted Crimean independence or annexation by Russia." http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/04/putin-ukraine-olive-branches-russian-tanks

LeBrok
04-03-14, 18:20
2. Interesting word you have used hypocrisy. Especially because there is a parallel between Serbian and Ukrainian nazi groups, but EU is supporting Ukrainian ones, while doing it's best to repress Serbian ones. So why such behavior? I thought we were supposed to fight against these plagues wherever they are?
Give us one example, one proof of EU supporting Ukrainian nazi organization. Otherwise stop this insanity.



1. These are not fascists. These are nationalists, but they are anti-fascist. Anyway their organization was forbidden in 2012, and they were persecuted.
Oh, I understand now. Serbian ultra-nationalists are anti-fascist. But Ukrainian ultra-nationalists are fascist and nazi. :confused2:
Hypocrisy is very fitting term here, don't you think?

martiko
04-03-14, 19:16
Ha Ha exactly the same expression as I would expect from Poles brainwashed in communist times. They are blind for Russian imperialist policy, and every misery and suffering in the world is caused by vampire-capitalists from USA and Western Europe.:laughing:


Prawy Sektor is a group of people working in favor of Putin's policy they gave reasons to attack Ukraine and they gave reasons to stop Polish support for democratic changes in Ukraine. Who is taking advantage from this? Of course Putin!
So, in my opinion this extremist deserve be eliminated from political scene. Especially glorification of the butcher Stefan Bandera is the sign of their brainlessness. Yatseniuk is aware of this and doing his best to keep Ukraine as one country.

First of all water cannons are the best way to stop protests especially in winter when temperature is -10C. But in Ukraine it is not the case, Yanukovich wasn’t able to stop the protests because in administration and in very influential oligarchs he had opposition. That is why for last four months inner conflict escalated in Ukraine. One more thing, Yanukovich deceived the public in case of his foreign policy and that made Ukrainians angry.

I thing “Prawy Sektor” is supported by Russian Federation. I just explained it to user Soket. Everything go along game theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory).



Edit: Russian Federation attacks Ukraine to protect Russian minority, but nothing happened to them. So what is next? Maybe Time for Latvia where Russians have to pass Language exam to gain citizenship of Republic of Latvia? The Russian minority in this country make 26.9%. Should Latvians feel threatened?
You seem to know very well the Russian and even more than me, that's the reason I never responds to your messages, because I have nothing to contest.
But what you do not say is that the Russians are sincere and can do evil that good conscience.Le Russian people as a whole, is naive with the hierarchy is a nation of believers.
Thus a malicious dictator can exploit.
DJin dobre !

LeBrok
04-03-14, 19:20
Just "heard" some news/rumor that Putin contacted east Ukrainian provincial and urban governments with a message that it is OK to ask Russia for protection. I think Putin expects to lose influence over Ukraine and wants to gain as much territory as possible.

I wonder how strong EU leaders will come up with sanctions against Russia, if any. After all Russia supplies 30% or more energy, in gas and oil, to UE. Putin is known to react fast but not known as compassionate.

Anton, Bear's den
04-03-14, 19:34
I don't understand that "gay" blaming of Russia by anglosaxons in general. RF don't let minorities impose its will on the majority, any bad here??? And we don't have feminism here too while our woman totally free since viking ages...

martiko
04-03-14, 19:35
[/FONT][/COLOR]What are you talking about, what is closed economy?
I'm glad you admired the exceptional east European's countries growth. Do you mean nobody is holding them back? Good, they might be well off in next 25 years. Far cry from your "Never".
From "nothing" to half of German per capita GDP in 25 years. I don't think they qualifies as poor anymore.



What?! You just said that from nothing countries grow fast.
Here is your quote:
[/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE]

[/FONT][/COLOR]
It's time they used there own shale gas.

[/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_KhYSMofQxo/T8dHlp7lRGI/AAAAAAAAAFI/K_Y8x-8VDvs/s1600/fracking%2B02.jpg[SIZE=2][COLOR=#000000][FONT=verdana]



Look at the map again. I'm glad your opinion can't influence future of many countries. Can you imagine becoming a president of new independent country "Kurdistan". In your inaugural speech you proclame: We always be poor, we have nothing, there is no hope for us, we are not anglo-saxon, they won't let us be successful, only anglo-saxon and special countries win, etc, etc".
Do you see doom and gloom you are spewing?
You must add the Aquitaine basin which could reseve of oils schiste very important
http://aquitaine.france3.fr/gaz-de-schiste

LeBrok
04-03-14, 19:59
So, does EU wants a war, or does it want to stop it? EU is not in position to dictate or even anger Russia, because Russia supplies over 30% of oil and gas. Putin can cripple EU with one swift decision. Did you think about this?

martiko
04-03-14, 20:02
Just "heard" some news/rumor that Putin contacted east Ukrainian provincial and urban governments with a message that it is OK to ask Russia for protection. I think Putin expects to lose influence over Ukraine and wants to gain as much territory as possible.

I wonder how strong EU leaders will come up with sanctions against Russia, if any. After all Russia supplies 30% or more energy, in gas and oil, to UE. Putin is known to react fast but not known as compassionate.

you thought I was exaggerating when I predicted this!
I just found that mimics Putin Hitler thinking, I suppose, it will stop before.
It is a bad tactician because it is already too much, and he just lost a battle but the Russian economy will not see that in a few months the effect of war.
And it will soon lose a second battle: The EEC and the USA intend to clear the debts of Ukraine through the IMF and the European bank.

On the other hand I do not understand why Kurds criticize us all.
Gas Saddam Hussein was on Russian gas and is Europe with USA who protected enclave Kurds and planes were American, French and English.
But if they think we are fachistes, then should not he stay here in CEE, and they will be happier in the great Russian democracy where he will be welcomed here better than in CEE.
You're not prisoners.

LeBrok
04-03-14, 20:30
I like the way Ukraine reacts so far, with no military action against Russian invasion, and with only verbal demands. Russia is breaking their own agreements with Ukraine and international law. Sooner or later they would need to answer to international courts and repair relationship with their one of the most important neighbor. It means that in future Ukraine will get back Crimea, and that any fighting with Russian troops is unnecessary at the moment.

There might be one very bad consequence for Russia coming up. EU will not be happy with uncertain gas and oil supplies, and unstable and high gas prices. Yesterday natural gas prices jumped 10%. EU will look for more trustful suppliers and cheaper gas during this year. It might accelerate shale gas development in many european countries. Next year Russia could face 10% or bigger drop in gas and oil trade. It means billions of euros lost from the budget. It is going to start hurting Russia bad, and it might be just the beginning. Few years like this and Russians will be very unhappy. Putin will lose election or will take over as true dictator. We might see riots in Moscow streets in few years.

Putin might (unconsciously) be engineering his own demise.

Ike
04-03-14, 20:46
Give us one example, one proof of EU supporting Ukrainian nazi organization. Otherwise stop this insanity.

Are you satisfied with Canadian sorces?
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine/5371554

Or maybe from BBC?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SBo0akeDMY


Oh, I understand now. Serbian ultra-nationalists are anti-fascist. But Ukrainian ultra-nationalists are fascist and nazi. :confused2:
Hypocrisy is very fitting term here, don't you think?

No you don't understand LeBrok . It seems you have hard time with abstract concepts. Let me draw it to you. Are you familiar with sets in mathematics? As you can see from the picture Nationalists can be both fascist and anti-fascist. I've pointed out to you which fractions in Serbia belong to which side. Either way it's of no importance because they are all BANNED.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine/5371554http://i61.tinypic.com/lfmrm.jpg




EU is not in position to dictate or even anger Russia, because Russia supplies over 30% of oil and gas. Putin can cripple EU with one swift decision. Did you think about this?

Ok, but why do they support it? Or you think that Canadian sources are wrong? Maybe Michel Chossudovsky is misinterpreting the facts?
http://www.globalresearch.ca/protests-in-ukraine-supported-by-us-and-eu-both-covert-and-overt/5371869

LeBrok
04-03-14, 20:47
But if they think we are fachistes, then should not he stay here in CEE, and they will be happier in the great Russian democracy where he will be welcomed here better than in CEE.
You're not prisoners.
We have to keep in mind that Russian democracy is very fresh. Till 1991 there was always a dictator, Tzar or First Secretary, to tell Russians what to do and what to think. It will take many more decades for Russia to learn democratic ways, and treat your neighbors as friends and not as Vassals.

It is also important to see Ukraine in frame of new country development. Till 1991 Ukraine never existed as an independent country, and also as Russia never experienced democracy before either. Country-forming is often long and uneasy process. Let's give them some slack and understanding.

LeBrok
04-03-14, 20:50
No you don't understand LeBrok . It seems you have hard time with abstract concepts. Let me draw it to you. Are you familiar with sets in mathematics? As you can see from the picture Nationalists can be both fascist and anti-fascist. I've pointed out to you which fractions in Serbia belong to which side. Either way it's of no importance because they are all BANNED.


Check your reading glasses. Did I say nationalist or ultra-nationalist?

Ike
04-03-14, 20:59
Same thing LeBrok. They were banned according to their action not according to the nomenclature. They can call themselves infra-nationalists if they like.

Why are not Ukrainian nazi supporters banned and prosecuted? Why do we see SS symbols on the streets of Ukraine? Why is nobody in EU talking about Nazi revival?

Goga
04-03-14, 21:29
On the other hand I do not understand why Kurds criticize us all.
Gas Saddam Hussein was on Russian gas and is Europe with USA who protected enclave Kurds and planes were American, French and English.
But if they think we are fachistes, then should not he stay here in CEE, and they will be happier in the great Russian democracy where he will be welcomed here better than in CEE.
You're not prisoners.Are you serious? When Saddam Hussein committed a genocide on Kurds Saddam Hussein was a huge ally of the USA

Saddam Hussein with Donald Rumsfeld
http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/handshake300.jpg
http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

The mustard gas and nerve gas Saddam Hussein used was supplied by the USA, Germany, the Netherlands and some other European countries

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-153210/Rumsfeld-helped-Iraq-chemical-weapons.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-153210/Rumsfeld-helped-Iraq-chemical-weapons.html)

Dutchmen Frans van Anraat was thedirect and main supplier of chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein that were used against the Kurds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frans_van_Anraat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frans_van_Anraat)

This was not new, even during Churchill the Brits gassed Kurds, because the British Empire wanted Kurdish oil andK urds resisted to become slaves of the European Powers.

The West (Western Europe andt he USA) always supported the enemies of the Kurds. The western powers are allies of Turks and Arabs. The western world has been always seeing Kurds as their enemies, since the Saladin (Kurd) liberated Jerusalem from the Crusaders.

That's why I'm against the Western unipolar hegemony on this planet. Because than they can do whatever they want, fearing nobody. That's why this must be stopped! The power will be divide again. There must be a balance of power. The world will become multipolar. The USA have to swallow their pride and take some steps back. I don't like Russia, but I don't like the arrogance and the hegemony of the USA either.

LeBrok
04-03-14, 21:32
Are you satisfied with Canadian sorces?
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine/5371554


Lol, some obscure left wing publishing company knows the truth. I'm sure they have secret agents in Ukrainian politics and print the truth.

Let's look at varied and objective books they sell:
-Globalization of poverty
- Towards a WWIII
-9/11 uncovering ten years of deception
-the Globalization of NATO
-America war on terrorizm
-NATO war on Libya and Africa
-Scramble for Africa
-Globalization of Poverty and New World Order
-Hidden agenda of Genetic Manipulation
-Economic crisis, Great Depression of XXI century

I'm sure you are reading these conspiracy theorists very often.

Not even one title about good old Russia? Not on Russia helping Ukraine to get prosperous? Nothing about good communism? Just books on ugly NATO, bad America, and greedy business.
Do you really consider them to be an objective publisher?








Or maybe from BBC?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SBo0akeDMY


Enlighten me what time on this video I have to listen for EU supporting Ukrainian nazis? I must have missed that proof.
Oh, maybe you implying that when EU or US helps all ukrainian people they will indirectly help ultra-nationalists too. So they are implicated. These sneaky politicians, damn. By the same logic EU is anti-russian.
What a matriculate logic. All friends and sympathetic people to Ukraine must be nazi and Russian haters. There is no other way. Thanks for helping.

Goga
04-03-14, 21:38
USA who protected enclave Kurds and planes were American, French and English.Nowadays, the USA is helping Arabs in Iraq and Syria against the Kurds. In Rojava (Western Kurdistan/Syria) Kurds are fighting against the Islamic Al-Qaeda terrorists who are backed by Turkey, Saudi Arabia and the USA. In South Kurdistan (Iraqi Kurdistan) the USA is helping Al Malicki central government against the Kurds. The USA is helping Turkey against the Kurds. The USA betrayed Kurds many times. I don't believe in the so callled 'DEMOCRACY' of the USA anymore. For me it doesn't matter wahtever will happen to the USA!

LeBrok
04-03-14, 21:40
Same thing LeBrok. They were banned according to their action not according to the nomenclature. They can call themselves infra-nationalists if they like.
Is your math failing you?
6283





Why are not Ukrainian nazi supporters banned and prosecuted? Why do we see SS symbols on the streets of Ukraine? Why is nobody in EU talking about Nazi revival?
Yes we all know about this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SBo0akeDMY

We are just against branding all Ukrainians as nazis by you.

LeBrok
04-03-14, 21:49
Are you serious? When Saddam Hussein committed a genocide on Kurds Saddam Hussein was a hugeally of the USA

Saddam Hussein with Donald Rumsfeld

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

The mustard gasand nerve gas Saddam Hussein used was supplied by the USA, Germany, the Netherlands and some other European countries

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-153210/Rumsfeld-helped-Iraq-chemical-weapons.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-153210/Rumsfeld-helped-Iraq-chemical-weapons.html)

Dutchmen Frans van Anraat was thedirect and main supplier of chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein that were used againstthe Kurds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frans_van_Anraat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frans_van_Anraat)

This was not new, evenduring Churchill gassed Kurds, because the British Empire wanted Kurdish oil andKurds resisted to become slaves of the European Powers.

The West (Western Europe andthe USA) always supported the enemies of the Kurds. The western powers areallies of Turks and Arabs. The western world have been always seeing Kurds astheir enemies, since the Saladin (Kurd) liberated Jerusalem from the Crusaders.

That's why I'm against the Western unipolar hegemony on this planet. Because than they can do whatever they want, fearing nobody. That's why this must be stopped! The power will be divide again. The world will become multipolar. The USA have to swallow their pride and take some steps back. I don't like Russia, but I don't like the arrogance and the hegemony of the USA either.
Is this why you live in Holland now, paying taxes there, which are used by Wester Block to increase their dominance over the world?
Or you live there because it is a peaceful, rich, quiet and tolerant country? Based in Western philosophy and economy which you hate.

An interesting case of biting a hand that feeds you.

Goga
04-03-14, 21:58
Is this why you live in Holland now, paying taxes there, which are used by Wester Block to increase their dominance over the world?
Or you live there because it is a peaceful, rich, quiet and tolerant country? Based in Western philosophy and economy which you hate.

An interesting case of biting a hand that feeds you.Dutch people were responsible for the genocide on Kurds! They sold chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein in return for Kurdish oil from Kurdistan!
After the genocide, Holland accepted many Kurds from southern Kurdistan because the Dutch government felt guilty and acknowledged being responsible for genocide against the Kurds

And what are you talking about and why are you twisting my words again? I'm not against Holland, I’m against the USA hegemony! The USA hegemony is very bad for my homeland and my people!

Anton, Bear's den
04-03-14, 21:59
Those Anglo-Saxons completely lost the connection with reality. There is no Russian troops in Ukraine except those who already was there (sailors, marines etc...). Current illegitimate gangs in Kiev don't attack Crimean government because simply don't have forces except thugs from ultra nationalist groups, after the announcement of mobilization only 1.5% came to recruiting stations lol nobody is wishes to fight for bunch of corrupted western lackeys, oligarchs & neo-nazis, Klitschko can make suicide and eat his German passport haha

Sanctions against Russia? Not very smart idea to threaten the country which crushed the Nazis at Stalingrad, good luck with it and do not forget to stock up on candles http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif

Goga
04-03-14, 22:08
Those Anglo-Saxons completely lost the connection with reality. There is no Russian troops in Ukraine except those who already was there (sailors, marines etc...). Current illegitimate gangs in Kiev don't attack Crimean government because simply don't have forces except thugs from ultra nationalist groups, after the announcement of mobilization only 1.5% came to recruiting stations lol nobody is wishes to fight for bunch of corrupted western lackeys, oligarchs & neo-nazis, Klitschko can make suicide and eat his German passport haha

Sanctions against Russia? Not very smart idea to threaten the country which crushed the Nazis at Stalingrad, good luck with it and do not forget to stock up on candles http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gifThey think Russia is like Lybia, Iraq or Syria, lol. Some kind of a land where they can impose their will. I don't know why but here in the West they do always underestimate Russia. I used to be a huge fan of Klitschkos, but the oldest sister lost my respect. I still like the younger brother though.

Goga
04-03-14, 22:15
The United States don't believe in the so called 'democracy'. They use democracy only when it only applies to them. And if they try to impose their will on some kind of weak and poor nations they always use the same strategy and do it under the same banner of 'spreading democracy/liberalism'. So predictable...

LeBrok
04-03-14, 22:35
Dutch people were responsible for the genocide on Kurds! They sold chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein in return for Kurdish oil from Kurdistan!
After the genocide, Holland accepted many Kurds from southern Kurdistan because the Dutch government felt guilty and acknowledged being responsible for genocide against the Kurds

And what are you talking about and why are you twisting my words again? I'm not against Holland, I’m against the USA hegemony! The USA hegemony is very bad for my homeland and my people!
Holland belongs to NATO together with US and Turkey. And this is also where part of your tax money goes.

Goga
04-03-14, 22:50
Holland belongs to NATO together with US and Turkey. And this is also where part of your tax money goes.
There's a Dutch socialist party (SP) here that is against NATO. According to this party NATO should be abolished and this Dutch party is also against human rights violations and other fascist policies in Turkey. And I do always vote for them! This party is very big. BTW, here in Holland we almost have no army, we only have some fighter jets and that's all, no tanks nothing. Since Holland is part of the EU and surrounded by close allies and also EU members an army is practically useless in this part of the world. This is OT, why are you always forcing to go OT?

martiko
04-03-14, 23:09
Are you serious? When Saddam Hussein committed a genocide on Kurds Saddam Hussein was a hugeally of the USA

Saddam Hussein with Donald Rumsfeld
http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/handshake300.jpg
http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

The mustard gas and nerve gas Saddam Hussein used was supplied by the USA, Germany, the Netherlands and some other European countries

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-153210/Rumsfeld-helped-Iraq-chemical-weapons.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-153210/Rumsfeld-helped-Iraq-chemical-weapons.html)

Dutchmen Frans van Anraat was thedirect and main supplier of chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein that were used againstthe Kurds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frans_van_Anraat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frans_van_Anraat)

This was not new, evenduring Churchill gassed Kurds, because the British Empire wanted Kurdish oil andKurds resisted to become slaves of the European Powers.

The West (Western Europe andthe USA) always supported the enemies of the Kurds. The western powers areallies of Turks and Arabs. The western world have been always seeing Kurds astheir enemies, since the Saladin (Kurd) liberated Jerusalem from the Crusaders.

That's why I'm against the Western unipolar hegemony on this planet. Because than they can do whatever they want, fearing nobody. That's why this must be stopped! The power will be divide again. The world will become multipolar. The USA have to swallow their pride and take some steps back. I don't like Russia, but I don't like the arrogance and the hegemony of the USA either.
Why stay here in fascist EEC ( according to you), not you afraid of being gassed with Russian gas?
Go to your Russian friends and so we may take the Ukrainian here.
When taking positions they should take on or is loose.

Ike
04-03-14, 23:14
Lol, some obscure left wing publishing company knows the truth. I'm sure they have secret agents in Ukrainian politics and print the truth.

Let's look at varied and objective books they sell:
-Globalization of poverty
- Towards a WWIII
-9/11 uncovering ten years of deception
-the Globalization of NATO
-America war on terrorizm
-NATO war on Libya and Africa
-Scramble for Africa
-Globalization of Poverty and New World Order
-Hidden agenda of Genetic Manipulation
-Economic crisis, Great Depression of XXI century

I'm sure you are reading these conspiracy theorists very often.

Not even one title about good old Russia? Not on Russia helping Ukraine to get prosperous? Nothing about good communism? Just books on ugly NATO, bad America, and greedy business.
Do you really consider them to be an objective publisher?

OK, you have the right to ignore the source.


Enlighten me what time on this video I have to listen for EU supporting Ukrainian nazis? I must have missed that proof.
If you're wanting to hear USA president say "I support nacists" then you will never have evidence.


Oh, maybe you implying that when EU or US helps all ukrainian people they will indirectly help ultra-nationalists too. So they are implicated. These sneaky politicians, damn.
Why indirectly? They are directly supporting them. Why aren't they supporting Yanaukovich which is latest legitimate president, chosen democratically by the will of majority?


By the same logic EU is anti-russian. I don't know. That is not the subject. Why would we involve Russia into this now?



What a matriculate logic. All friends and sympathetic people to Ukraine must be nazi and Russian haters. There is no other way. Thanks for helping.
Only thing that people that think like that do, is helping start a war in Ukraine. Ukraine also says to you [irony on] Thanx for helping [irony off].


Is your math failing you?
6283


Off course not. You talk like you never went to college or read a book on semantics. It is obvious that what is considered ultra-something like: ultra-conservative in Finland won't be considered ultra-conservative in Pakistan. It was not the point of this thread to fine tune the terminology of nationalism.

You seem to have a problem with my designation of what's fascist and what's anti-fascist here on Balkan, while you know nothing about current events or history of Anti-Fascist Council of Yugoslavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Fascist_Council_for_the_National_Liberation_of_Yug oslavia) and find yourself com competent to label organizations here on Balkan better than me. Nice

And once again, for the 3rd time (LoL) they are all banned here. Understand, banned? That's the point, not how are they called.
Anyway, I see no point talking about it here, when the subject are Ukrainian nazis right NOW. They use Ukrainian WW2 SS symbols, they praise Ukrainian WW2 criminals, they talk about ethnically clean state of Ukraine, clean of Jews, Russians and others. How did you get that in relation to nationalistic Obraz movemen from Serbia, that is banned, and it's leader put behind bars. Why are you red-harringing?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/27/mladen-obradovic-serbian-leader-gay-threats-jailed-_n_1382769.html



We are just against branding all Ukrainians as nazis by you.

That's totally not true!! Neither do I think so, nor have I ever said anything that would designate all Ukrainians as nacists. Why are you making up things?

Goga
04-03-14, 23:38
Why stay here in fascist EEC ( according to you), not you afraid of being gassed with Russian gas?
Go to your Russian friends and so we may take the Ukrainian here.
When taking positions they should take on or is loose.
Is this a joke? What has this conflict to do with me? I'm just giving my opinion, can I? I know many 'native' Europeans that don't like the USA policies either, should they go to Russia too?

martiko
04-03-14, 23:58
Is this a joke? What has this conflict to do with me? I'm just giving my opinion, can I?
When my family fled Gernika (Errentery) was to come to France and the difference between us: I thank the France and you shit on Holland.

Go and Russia today provides gas for Syrian and also airplanes and helicopters.
Tomorrow maybe even provide Iraqi minorities to defend the Iraqi Kurds in the province.
And then: that you sing in the morning?

Obviously at this point, there will be no more fascists in Western Iraq

Goga
05-03-14, 00:06
When my family fled Gernika (Errentery) was to come to France and the difference between us: I thank the France and you shit on HollandYou drank to much of a red French wine or what? May I ask you what have France and Holland to do with this conflict between Ukraine and Russia? I don't understand your logic, please enlighten me. You act like the USA is a country of saints. As far as I know neither France nor Holland created a conflict between Russia and Ukraine.

martiko
05-03-14, 00:35
You drank to much of a red French wine or what? May I ask you what have France and Holland to do with this conflict between Ukraine and Russia? I don't understand your logic, please enlighten me. You act like the USA is a country of saints. As far as I know neither France nor Holland created a conflict between Russia and Ukraine.

Be respectful
I return the question :
ask yourself what are Europe and Holland to do with Putin's aggression against democracy?
for me:
an aditional reason, be sympathetic Ukraine, having a child with Ukrainian.

Ike
05-03-14, 01:00
Is this a joke? What has this conflict to do with me? I'm just giving my opinion, can I? I know many 'native' Europeans that don't like the USA policies either, should they go to Russia too?

He's implementing a false dilemma on you.

"False dilemma can arise intentionally, when fallacy is used in an attempt to force a choice (such as, in some contexts, the assertion that "if you are not with us, you are against us"). But the fallacy can also arise simply by accidental omission of additional options rather than by deliberate deception."

Goga
05-03-14, 01:09
Be respectful
I return the question :
ask yourself what are Europe and Holland to do with Putin's aggression against democracy?
for me:
an aditional reason, be sympathetic Ukraine, having a child with Ukrainian.So you want an Ukrainian wife and an Ukrainina child. Good for you, nobody is stopping you, neither me nor Putin! But what has this to do with the democracy in Holland? And Putin is not against the democracy in Holland! Putin, as an elected leader of Russia, is defending the interests of his country. And about what kind of democracy are you talking about? If the U.S. believed in democracy they would never support, countries like Egypt, Saudi-Arabia, Turkey and Islamic (Al-Qaeda) terrorists in Syria!

martiko
05-03-14, 01:29
So you want an Ukrainian wife and an Ukrainina child. Good for you, nobody is stopping you, neither me nor Putin! But what has this to do with the democracy in Holland? And Putin is not against the democracy in Holland! Putin, as an elected leader of Russia, is defending the interests of his country. And about what kind of democracy are you talking about? If the U.S. believed in democracy they would never support, countries like Egypt, Saudi-Arabia, Turkey and Islamic (Al-Qaeda) terrorists in Syria!


you interpret, read better, I do not have a Ukrainian wife. And the reason that inspires me is the defense of democracy and nationalism as not for you.
I have a lot of respect for Russian culture but I hate Mujik as Putin. Many Russian ashamed for him but they can not tell people like you.

Alan
05-03-14, 02:01
They think Russia is like Lybia, Iraq or Syria, lol. Some kind of a land where they can impose their will. I don't know why but here in the West they do always underestimate Russia. I used to be a huge fan of Klitschkos, but the oldest sister lost my respect. I still like the younger brother though.

Why did you lose respect for the older brother?

Dear Goga you are once again leaning to much out of the window and mixing too extremely emotions with real politics. All before the 21th century we Kurds were not "important" enough and have been betrayed by allot of countries in the West as well East.

I don't need to remind you how we were betrayed.

Real Politics is not a "I wish " game. Just because you want "balance" in power doesn't mean it will happen. No one said Russia will go down, it is economically strong.

In your "emotional rage" once again you throw with accusations around which will neither be beneficial to us nor change what has happened. If it wasn't Holland or Germany who sold the Chemical weapons, it would have been other countries. The production of Chemicals on itself is a crime but unfortunately this is what is still going on. You can't criticize one side while at the same time the other is doing the same. Syrian Chemical weapons are mostly made in cooperation with Soviet Union and Egypt.

However I agree with you on one point. US has been very ignorant the last year towards the Kurds, because 1. they saw the Kurdish support as granted. 2. Ally pressure (Turkey) 3. They still hold on their nonsensical idea that "the region would be more destabilized " (When was the Near East ever stable and how much can it actually be more unstable than it currently is).

Russia is a big help in Syrian Kurdistan but not just out of "sympathy" but because One of our main enemies (Al Qaida) is also the enemy of Assad and because Russia saw the Middle East changing and (contrary to US) reacted to it better by seeing how the Kurdish question is gaining more importance.

However Kurds in Iran (their own ally) Russia never lost nor will they lose a word.

Yet we need the support of the West as well the East

You react emotional and expect us Kurds to be isolated from Western and Eastern powers which is impossible and will turn us decades back.

Goga
05-03-14, 02:18
Why did you lose respect for the older brother?He is still arguably the best boxer ever, but he proved to be a human too like we all are. An egocentric human that makes mistakes and also like most humans hunger for power. He wants to become a mayor in Kiev. His greatest mistake is teaming up with corrupt and fascist leaders in Western Ukraine.

martiko
05-03-14, 02:28
Why did you lose respect for the older brother?

Dear Goga you are once again leaning to much out of the window and mixing too extremely emotions with real politics. All before the 21th century we Kurds were not "important" enough and have been betrayed by allot of countries in the West as well East.

I don't need to remind you how we were betrayed.

Real Politics is not a "I wish " game. Just because you want "balance" in power doesn't mean it will happen. No one said Russia will go down, it is economically strong.

In your "emotional rage" once again you throw with accusations around which will neither be beneficial to us nor change what has happened. If it wasn't Holland or Germany who sold the Chemical weapons, it would have been other countries. The production of Chemicals on itself is a crime but unfortunately this is what is still going on. You can't criticize one side while at the same time the other is doing the same. Syrian Chemical weapons are mostly made in cooperation with Soviet Union and Egypt.

However I agree with you on one point. US has been very ignorant the last year towards the Kurds, because 1. they saw the Kurdish support as granted. 2. Ally pressure (Turkey) 3. They still hold on their nonsensical idea that "the region would be more destabilized " (When was the Near East ever stable and how much can it actually be more unstable than it currently is).

Russia is a big help in Syrian Kurdistan but not just out of "sympathy" but because One of our main enemies (Al Qaida) is also the enemy of Assad and because Russia saw the Middle East changing and (contrary to US) reacted to it better by seeing how the Kurdish question is gaining more importance.

However Kurds in Iran (their own ally) Russia never lost nor will they lose a word.

Yet we need the support of the West as well the East

You react emotional and expect us Kurds to be isolated from Western and Eastern powers which is impossible and will turn us decades back.

strange! you come to your senses.
Basque or Catalan had no hatred for the French because French German planes had electrical systems. The indusriels who sold did not know the result. The Soviets did not hate french because German tanks were often made in France, the French had no choice, the Japanese had no hatred for Albert Einstein .... etc. .....
Ukrainians have no hatred for the Russian people but Putin and all the profiteers, and it is because of this mafia gangrene hope that the Ukrainian people in the European democratic ideal.
And it could spread.
I do not think that the Ukrainian nationalists like Europe and I think he hates only slightly less than the Russian nationalists, because they already have the problem with invaders.
But if the meaning flowed much in Ukraine and the Russian people do not move, so there would be a reaction, but I do not know which reaction.

Goga
05-03-14, 02:35
Yet we need the support of the West as well the East

You react emotional and expect us Kurds to be isolated from Western and Eastern powers which is impossible and will turn us decades back.This topic is about Russo-Ukrainian conflict. And the topic starter asked for an opinion. And I'm giving my opinion, that's all. I have a right to have my own opnion. I'm an open person, I say in what I do believe. Doesn't matter for me how many friends or enemies I make with my opnion. I don't represent any group, only myself!

I know that both camps are wrong and they both protect their own interests. But what I'm trying to say is that the U.S. is most of the time wrong, like everybody else. At this moment they do support a regime that took power from a democratic elected leader through a coup.

And believe me I'm not emotional at all. When I write comments on internet, it's always with a huge smile on my face.

Alan
05-03-14, 02:40
strange! you come to your senses.
Basque or Catalan had no hatred for the French because French German planes had electrical systems. The indusriels who sold did not know the result. The Soviets did not hate french because German tanks were often made in France, the French had no choice, the Japanese had no hatred for Albert Einstein .... etc. .....
Ukrainians have no hatred for the Russian people but Putin and all the profiteers, and it is because of this mafia gangrene hope that the Ukrainian people in the European democratic ideal.
And it could spread.
I do not think that the Ukrainian nationalists like Europe and I think he hates only slightly less than the Russian nationalists, because they already have the problem with invaders.

I never lost my sense, simply became a bit more emotional as usual, understandable if someone tries to play down the oppression which was and still is going on against my people.

I never gave Holland or any other country fault because they sold weapons. This would just go to far and is simply meant to find some guilty for our misery.

But yet, in my opinion countries should be more careful to who they sell weapons.

Alan
05-03-14, 02:45
This topic is about Russo-Ukrainian conflict. And the topic starter asked for an opinion. And I'm giving my opinion, that's all. I have a right to have my own opnion. I'm an open person, I say in what I do believe. Doesn't matter for me how many friends or enemies I make with my opnion. I don't represent any group, only myself!

I know that both camps are wrong and they both protect their own interests. But what I'm trying to say is that the U.S. is most of the time wrong, like everybody else. At this moment they do support a regime that took power from a democratic elected leader through a coup.

And believe me I'm not emotional at all. When I write comments on internet, it's always with a huge smile on my face.

The amount of ! or !?!?! you use or the way you formulate your arguments are beyond just a smile :)

I have no personal opinion about this conflict, nor will it change my view or opinion about any side.

LeBrok
05-03-14, 03:09
All before the 21th century we Kurds were not "important" enough and have been betrayed by allot of countries in the West as well East.
.
You're not insulated with this issue. For most of history smaller players were like pawns in game than could befriend stronger once and be respected.
I'm sure independent Kurdistan (or whatever name you chose) is only a matter of when.

Coolboygcp
05-03-14, 03:22
I don't understand that "gay" blaming of Russia by anglosaxons in general. RF don't let minorities impose its will on the majority, any bad here??? And we don't have feminism here too while our woman totally free since viking ages...

Every civilised country allows gays to have their own magazines, newspapers, websites, etc. Russia has a ban on "gay propaganda". I have never seen propaganda created by gay people (except Putin).

Russian women aren't totally free. If they were, they wouldn't have Pussy Riot. Do you not consider Pussy Riot to be feminists? Or do you consider them to be "terrorists" as your government portrays them?

Coolboygcp
05-03-14, 03:38
Why did you lose respect for the older brother?

Dear Goga you are once again leaning to much out of the window and mixing too extremely emotions with real politics. All before the 21th century we Kurds were not "important" enough and have been betrayed by allot of countries in the West as well East.

I don't need to remind you how we were betrayed.

Real Politics is not a "I wish " game. Just because you want "balance" in power doesn't mean it will happen. No one said Russia will go down, it is economically strong.

In your "emotional rage" once again you throw with accusations around which will neither be beneficial to us nor change what has happened. If it wasn't Holland or Germany who sold the Chemical weapons, it would have been other countries. The production of Chemicals on itself is a crime but unfortunately this is what is still going on. You can't criticize one side while at the same time the other is doing the same. Syrian Chemical weapons are mostly made in cooperation with Soviet Union and Egypt.

However I agree with you on one point. US has been very ignorant the last year towards the Kurds, because 1. they saw the Kurdish support as granted. 2. Ally pressure (Turkey) 3. They still hold on their nonsensical idea that "the region would be more destabilized " (When was the Near East ever stable and how much can it actually be more unstable than it currently is).

Russia is a big help in Syrian Kurdistan but not just out of "sympathy" but because One of our main enemies (Al Qaida) is also the enemy of Assad and because Russia saw the Middle East changing and (contrary to US) reacted to it better by seeing how the Kurdish question is gaining more importance.

However Kurds in Iran (their own ally) Russia never lost nor will they lose a word.

Yet we need the support of the West as well the East

You react emotional and expect us Kurds to be isolated from Western and Eastern powers which is impossible and will turn us decades back.

Do you talk about other things? Is this all you think about, Kurds, Kurdistan, Turkey is evil, EU is evil, West is evil, etc.

If there ever will be a Kurdistan (which I doubt), Iranian Kurdistan would not be a part of it, that is delusional. Southeast Turkey will never be part of it either. I also doubt Syrian Kurdistan would be part of it.

This only leaves Iraqi Kurdistan, which is the only Kurdish region which has a chance of independence, only because Iraq is collapsing; and in the event if Iraqi Kurdish independence, they would probably not be able to keep it.

You seem to love to attack everyone on this thread. Even one of your own (Goga, a Kurd who wants Kurdish independence, and has similar ideologies as you) you fight with.

Are you hypertensive or something?

You should make another thread, featuring your crazy rants regarding The West's, the EU's, the UN's, and Turkey's plan to hurt and kill all Kurds. If you do that, then you won't derail this thread any further.

Coolboygcp
05-03-14, 03:50
Same thing LeBrok. They were banned according to their action not according to the nomenclature. They can call themselves infra-nationalists if they like.

Why are not Ukrainian nazi supporters banned and prosecuted? Why do we see SS symbols on the streets of Ukraine? Why is nobody in EU talking about Nazi revival?

They are not the same thing. It is like saying a liberal and a socialist are the same. They are both left-wing, but they are completely different animals.

Do you any proof that there are Ukrainian neo-Nazis in Ukraine? Even if there are, there would be very few of them, and they do not represent the majority. When they had the Occupy Wall Street protests, they had some people protesting to bring back Crystal Pepsi and Vanilla Coke, that doesn't means that the whole movement was regarding bringing back Crystal Pepsi.

Where are the SS symbols in Ukraine? I have not seen one. Sure, there was that photoshopped photo you showed earlier, but that isn't proof that there are Nazis in Ukraine.

What about the Neo-Nazis in Russia?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism#Russia

LeBrok
05-03-14, 03:57
You should make another thread, featuring your crazy rants regarding The West's, the EU's, the UN's, and Turkey's plan to hurt and kill all Kurds. If you do that, then you won't derail this thread any further.
This thread is "have fun" thread to "vent" current Crimea affair. I don't mind if it goes other places somewhat, as long as we don't kill each other, lol.

Ike
05-03-14, 04:02
Every civilised country allows gays to have their own magazines, newspapers, websites, etc.
You've only allowed gays like a decade ago, and until recent you've been treating them with electric shocks, and now you're here to give us lectures. LoL.
Does that mean that you recognize every western country being uncivilized up until 17th of May 1990?


Russia has a ban on "gay propaganda". I have never seen propaganda created by gay people (except Putin).
If there is no gay propaganda, then nothing will be effected with the 'ban of gay propaganda", so there is no reason for you to worry.


Russian women aren't totally free. If they were, they wouldn't have Pussy Riot. Do you not consider Pussy Riot to be feminists? Or do you consider them to be "terrorists" as your government portrays them?
Again, simplification. Would you consider Western women totally free because they don't have Pussy Riot? Does that mean that all Western feminist organizations should be disbanded now, because there is no need for them, since they are absolutely free, and there is nothing more to achieve?

Coolboygcp
05-03-14, 04:09
This thread is "have fun" thread to "vent" current Crimea affair. I don't mind if it goes other places somewhat, as long as we don't kill each other, lol.

Okay. Hopefully we won't do that. :laughing:

Alan
05-03-14, 04:15
How good that your opinion of me or my peoples future has no weight "Coolboy". I said, "Evil EU, Evil West"? Hell I didn't even used the designation "Evil" in connection to Turkey in that post. :laughing:

So you are hallucinating once again. I was merely pointing out the geopolitical facts. Not my problem if you have no clue of History or Geopolitics.

I think Goga knows best if he was attacked or not. He doesn't need a rabble-rouser to think for him.

Ike
05-03-14, 04:29
They are not the same thing. It is like saying a liberal and a socialist are the same. They are both left-wing, but they are completely different animals.
1. You clearly haven't read my post. As I've said to him. If you want to talk with me about labeling of Serbian nationalistic groups and fine tuning them into categories, you'd have to be much more informed than you are now.
2. You're addressing the false arguments. I didn't say ultra-nationalists and nationalists are the same, but that the outcome is the same. Dead body is dead body, whether it's a dead man or a dead boy.


Do you any proof that there are Ukrainian neo-Nazis in Ukraine? Even if there are, there would be very few of them, and they do not represent the majority.
Off course they don't represent majority, if they did, then Yanaukovich wouldn't won the latest elections.



When they had the Occupy Wall Street protests, they had some people protesting to bring back Crystal Pepsi and Vanilla Coke, that doesn't means that the whole movement was regarding bringing back Crystal Pepsi.
Logical. The problem is that the people movement (with or without nazi) is not the majority. If it was, Yanaukovich wouldn't have been elected.

I guess you can gather 10 million people that doesn't want Obama as a president. Number of nazists among them is irrelevant. Does that mean that Obama should leave his position just because these 10 million thing they are big enough mass?


Where are the SS symbols in Ukraine? I have not seen one. Sure, there was that photoshopped photo you showed earlier, but that isn't proof that there are Nazis in Ukraine.
Photoshoped? Ok, I'm no expert in Photoshop. Can anyone say if pictures like this could be photoshopped?

http://www.theblogmocracy.com/wp-content/uploads/Ukranian-Nazis.jpg



What about the Neo-Nazis in Russia?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism#Russia

What about them? Do you see them fighting police, burning down Gorky Park and rampaging through Kremlin?

Coolboygcp
05-03-14, 04:45
You've only allowed gays like a decade ago, and until recent you've been treating them with electric shocks, and now you're here to give us lectures. LoL.
Does that mean that you recognize every western country being uncivilized up until 17th of May 1990?


If there is no gay propaganda, then nothing will be effected with the 'ban of gay propaganda", so there is no reason for you to worry.


Again, simplification. Would you consider Western women totally free because they don't have Pussy Riot? Does that mean that all Western feminist organizations should be disbanded now, because there is no need for them, since they are absolutely free, and there is nothing more to achieve?
That isn't true, gays have been allowed for longer than a decade. They haven't been treating gays with electric shocks for many decades! Just because the WHO reversed it's policy on that date does not mean that every western country agreed with it's policies towards gays before 17 May. That was almost 24 years ago, it's been a long time since then and things are different now.

There is no actual gay propaganda, but in the Russian government's eyes all newspaper, books, websites, pamphlets, magazines, and publications prominently featuring, talking about, or about gay people, they are "propaganda".

I do consider Western women totally free, but not because they don't have Pussy Riot; because of reforms enacted by western governments over the past decades. In some nations there are some needs for wage equalisation, but I'd say that is the extent of it in The West.

You have not addressed the neo-Nazism in Russia and Serbia. Let me put some excerpts from Wikipedia below:


Russia[edit]
Main articles: Racism in Russia and Radical nationalism in Russia


Neo-Nazism in Russia: The photograph was taken at an anti-homosexual demonstration in Moscow in October 2010
Many Russian neo-Nazis openly admire Adolf Hitler and use the German Nazi swastika as their symbol. Russian neo-Nazis are characterized by racism, antisemitism, homophobia, Islamophobia and extreme xenophobia towards people from Asia.[69] Their ideology centers on defending Russian national identity against what they perceive as a takeover by minority groups such as Jews, Caucasians, homosexuals, Central Asians, Roma people, Poles, and Muslims.
Russian neo-Nazis have made it an explicit goal to take over the country by force, and have put serious effort into preparing for this. Paramilitary organizations operating under the guise of sports clubs have trained their members in squad tactics, hand to hand combat and weapons handling. They have stockpiled and used weapons, often illegally.
Observers have noted the irony of Russians embracing neo-Nazism, because one of Hitler's ambitions at the start of World War II was to exterminate, expel, or enslave most or all Slavs from central and eastern Europe (i.e., Russians, Ukrainians, Poles etc.).[70] At the end of the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union, over 25 million Soviet citizens had died.[71] In a 2007 news story, the ABC News reported, "In a country that lost more people defeating the Nazis than any other country, there are now an estimated 50,000 to 70,000 neo-Nazis, half of the world's total."[72]
The dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991 caused great economic and social problems, including widespread unemployment and poverty. Several far right paramilitary organizations were able to tap into popular discontent, particularly among marginalized, lesser educated and unemployed youths. Of the three major age groups — youths, adults, and the elderly — youths may have been hit the hardest. The elderly suffered due to inadequate (or unpaid) pensions, but they found effective political representation in the Communist Party, and generally had their concerns addressed through better budget allocations. Adults, although often suffering financially and psychologically due to job losses, were generally able to find new sources of income.
Russian National Unity (RNE), founded in 1990 and led by Alexander Barkashov, has claimed to have members in 250 cities. RNE adopted the swastika as its symbol, and sees itself as the avant-garde of a coming national revolution. It is critical of other major far right organizations, such as the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia (LDPR). Historian Walter Laqueur calls RNE far closer to the Nazi model than the LDPR. RNE publishes several news sheets; one of them, Russky poryadok, claims to have a circulation of 150,000. Full members of RNE are called Soratnik (comrades in arms), receive combat training at locations near Moscow, and many of them work as security officers or armed guards.[73]
On August 15, 2007, Russian authorities arrested a student for allegedly posting a video on the Internet which appears to show two migrant workers being beheaded in front of a red and black swastika flag.[74] Alexander Verkhovsky, the head of a Moscow-based center that monitors hate crime in Russia, said, "It looks like this is the real thing. The killing is genuine ... There are similar videos from the Chechen war. But this is the first time the killing appears to have been done intentionally."[75] A Russian neo-Nazi group called the Russian National Socialist Party claimed responsibility for the murders.

Serbia[edit]
See also: Neo-Nazism in Serbia
Neo-Nazism in Serbia is mostly based on national and religious factors. Nacionalni stroj (National Alignment), a neo-Nazi organization from the Vojvodina region, orchestrated several incidents. Charges were laid against 18 of the leading members.[76]
A branch of UK neonazi organization Blood & Honour (Krvi i čast) was created in Serbia in 1995. Most violent neonazi group in Serbia is Combat 18. Number 18 refers to first and eight letter of alphabet, initials of Adolf Hitler.[77]

What about that?

LeBrok
05-03-14, 05:22
What about them? Do you see them fighting police, burning down Gorky Park and rampaging through Kremlin?
I see, you don't give me a choice but to post more Serbian nazi pictures.
http://inserbia.info/news/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/combat-18.jpg

How does this feel?

Ike
05-03-14, 05:29
You have not addressed the neo-Nazism in Russia and Serbia. Let me put some excerpts from Wikipedia below:
What about that?

For the fourth time on this thread:) fascist and ultra-nationalistic organizations are banned in Serbia. These were the major two.

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/serbia-bans-far-right-obraz
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/society.php?yyyy=2011&mm=06&dd=03&nav_id=74727

Why are we talking about Nazis in Serbia? Have they done something lately. The latest incident that happened was in 1997 when two 17 year old skinheads killed (unintentionally) a Gipsy boy. They were sentenced to 10 years of prison each, and we are always reminded of it:
http://www.svet.rs/hronika/ubili-ga-skinhedsi-danas-se-navrsava-15-godina-od-ubistva-romskog-decaka-u-beogradu

And there has been placed a commemorating tablet on the place where the poor kid died of beating:
http://www.e-novine.com/files.php?file=photo/svet/vesti/rasizam/Dusan_Jovanovic_01_t_956854908.jpg

There was also some guy from a Russian nationalistic movement arrested here:
http://www.sova-center.ru/en/xenophobia/news-releases/2013/06/d27395/


So, what's that all got to do with actual Nacism happening now in Ukraine? Do you really think that Serbian, Macedonian, Bosnian or Croatian nacists are important at this moment? Why have you pulled them out of the closed at this crucial moment? At moment when things like these happen in Ukraine:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqlPvK8QtR8

Coolboygcp
05-03-14, 05:32
1. You clearly haven't read my post. As I've said to him. If you want to talk with me about labeling of Serbian nationalistic groups and fine tuning them into categories, you'd have to be much more informed than you are now.
2. You're addressing the false arguments. I didn't say ultra-nationalists and nationalists are the same, but that the outcome is the same. Dead body is dead body, whether it's a dead man or a dead boy.


Off course they don't represent majority, if they did, then Yanaukovich wouldn't won the latest elections.



Logical. The problem is that the people movement (with or without nazi) is not the majority. If it was, Yanaukovich wouldn't have been elected.

I guess you can gather 10 million people that doesn't want Obama as a president. Number of nazists among them is irrelevant. Does that mean that Obama should leave his position just because these 10 million thing they are big enough mass?


Photoshoped? Ok, I'm no expert in Photoshop. Can anyone say if pictures like this could be photoshopped?

http://www.theblogmocracy.com/wp-content/uploads/Ukranian-Nazis.jpg




What about them? Do you see them fighting police, burning down Gorky Park and rampaging through Kremlin?
You did say that ultra-nationalists and nationalists were the same, and that isn't true.

The only reason that that ******* won was because of the Russians in Ukraine, and ever since he won he just followed orders from Putin. The western and northern parts of the country voted for the pro-Europe parties, as they weren't stupid enough to vote for Viktor. If there are neo-Nazis in Ukraine, there are very few of them, and they do not represent a majority of the protesters. Serbia and Russia have tens of thousands of neo-Nazis, if not hundreds of thousands.

The movement is in the majority in the western and northern parts of Ukraine, which has ke people than the other parts of Ukraine. The other parts have a lot of naive people who want to join with Russia, and they don't realise the effects of that. (Like, getting most of their rights stripped away, living in a country led by a dictator, living in a dictatorship, living in a place where gays, women, minorities, and all other people are oppressed, and living in a country loaded with neo-Nazis (Russia))

And about the Obama thing, if 10,000,000 people protested to get rid of him, they should hold early elections in such case.

And the photo you have shown does not mean that those people are neo-Nazis. Those symbols are not Nazi-related. I have searched through lists of Nazi symbols, and there are none that match those symbols. The SS insignia bears no resemblance to the symbols that are being worn by the people in the image. Here is the SS insignia, see it bears no resemblance to the photo you posted:

6284

Ike
05-03-14, 05:35
I see, you don't give me a choice but to post more Serbian nazi pictures.
http://inserbia.info/news/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/combat-18.jpg

How does this feel?

It feels stupid. For the fifth time - they are banned, and are not allowed to show up in public, speak on TV, radio and indoctrinate people. They can't be seen anywhere except in some forests like where you've found them.
You should really start addressing the real problems and stop exploiting Ad Hominem. I know what you do. Will you care to explain me how does a solved problem with nazists in Serbia (at least at this moment) does reflect to the burning problem of Nazists in Ukraine? Will we all start posting nazi pictures now. I bet you can find a group in every country in the World. There are even Israeli nazists.

How does this verbal diversion relates to the subject of Ukraine?

LeBrok
05-03-14, 05:39
For the fourth time on this thread:) fascist and ultra-nationalistic organizations are banned in Serbia. These were the major two.
It doesn't mean they vanished.
In case you still don't get it, how about stopping posting nazi pictures of any nationality?
Deal?

Coolboygcp
05-03-14, 05:50
It feels stupid. For the fifth time - they are banned, and are not allowed to show up in public, speak on TV, radio and indoctrinate people. They can't be seen anywhere except in some forests like where you've found them.
You should really start addressing the real problems and stop exploiting Ad Hominem. I know what you do. Will you care to explain me how does a solved problem with nazists in Serbia (at least at this moment) does reflect to the burning problem of Nazists in Ukraine? Will we all start posting nazi pictures now. I bet you can find a group in every country in the World. There are even Israeli nazists.

How does this verbal diversion relates to the subject of Ukraine?

You are wrong once again.

Not all of the neo-Nazi groups are banned, there still are a few legal ones. Such as Combat 18, Blood and Honour, and more. The following is from Wikipedia:


Far right in Serbia mostly focuses on national and religious factors and it refers to any manifestation of far-right politics in the Republic of Serbia. Neo-Nazi followers in Serbia are against LGBT comunity, Romani people, Albanians, Croats, Bosniaks and they have a strong anti-EU and anti-USA feelings.
The most well-known neo-Nazi organization in Serbia is Nacionalni stroj (National Alignment). It is based in the Serbian region of Vojvodina, and has orchestrated several incidents since 2005. In late 2005, charges were pressed against 18 of the leading members in Novi Sad, and each of the suspects were facing up to eight years in prison.[1] This organization is now banned in Serbia.[2]
Other neo-nazi organisation, classified as Orthodox clero-fascist, was Obraz officially banned by the Constitutional Court of Serbia in 2012.[3] There are also other neo-nazi groups and organisation in Serbia, such as violent Combat 18, branch of UK's Blood & Honour etc.

Ike
05-03-14, 05:53
You did say that ultra-nationalists and nationalists were the same, and that isn't true.

No I didn't. I even noted the relativity of the terms themselves and necessity of giving it a whole separate thread if you want them defined precisely. It was never my intention to waste time on this thread about such nuances, when they are not important for the outcome of the talk.


The only reason that that ******* won was because of the Russians in Ukraine, and ever since he won he just followed orders from Putin.
OMG, OMG :) Is US passport worth different if you are white and if ou are Mexican? Why would you care what ethnicity those people are, they all have legitimate Ukrainian citizenship. You're really going into some weird stuff now.


The western and northern parts of the country voted for the pro-Europe parties, as they weren't stupid enough to vote for Viktor. If there are neo-Nazis in Ukraine, there are very few of them, and they do not represent a majority of the protesters. Serbia and Russia have tens of thousands of neo-Nazis, if not hundreds of thousands.

You're free to go look for them. So many fantasitc statements were made here. You could have at least provided Wiki facts :)


The movement is in the majority in the western and northern parts of Ukraine, which has ke people than the other parts of Ukraine. The other parts have a lot of naive people who want to join with Russia, and they don't realise the effects of that. (Like, getting most of their rights stripped away, living in a country led by a dictator, living in a dictatorship, living in a place where gays, women, minorities, and all other people are oppressed, and living in a country loaded with neo-Nazis (Russia))
Proof please. It's not the Moscow place where currently dead bodies are layed all around.


And about the Obama thing, if 10,000,000 people protested to get rid of him, they should hold early elections in such case.
Really. You really believe US government would let a mob shoot US policeman and burning them, just because they don't like Obama?


And the photo you have shown does not mean that those people are neo-Nazis. Those symbols are not Nazi-related. I have searched through lists of Nazi symbols, and there are none that match those symbols. The SS insignia bears no resemblance to the symbols that are being worn by the people in the image. Here is the SS insignia, see it bears no resemblance to the photo you posted:

6284

You really didn't search well enough. I think everyone sane will agree with that, so that I can stop posting Nazi symbols on this thread :)

Coolboygcp
05-03-14, 05:55
The photo LeBrok posted featured a photo of Combat 18 members, who are acting legally in Serbia. Below is an article about them:


“Blood and Honor” was formed in Serbia in 1995, and the base of the organization is in the UK. Number 18 represents the first and the eighth letter of the alphabet – initials of Adolf Hitler.

A large number of neo-Nazi organizations are at the same time the nucleus of the “United Force” fan group of FK “Rad”.

In addition to “Blood and Honor”, in Serbia there are three other neo-Nazi organizations – ” skinheads” , ” racial nationalists” and “National Front”.

Unlike the “National Front”, which exists in 18 countries, and the “skinheads” which were the official organizations, “Blood and Honor” was organized as a violent underground movement.

That group has no leading figure in Serbia, as “Obraz” (Mladen Obradovic) and the “National Front” (Goran Davidovic Fuhrer) has, but the conceptual core makes convicted older members organized in cells like a terrorist group.

“National Front” was banned in June 2011 and “Obraz” was banned a year later.

“Blood and Honor” organized in 2003 the combat unit “Combat 18″.

What particularly makes “Blood and Honor” and “Combat 18″ dangerous is international funding, whose assets are intended to spread Nazi propaganda, publishing magazines and websites, and to help the arrested members.

The money is also intended for travel to meetings, and to carry out violent actions.

Ike
05-03-14, 06:02
It doesn't mean they vanished.

No, but they've been dealt with, and now they're in the mice holes.


You are wrong once again.

Not all of the neo-Nazi groups are banned, there still are a few legal ones. Such as Combat 18, Blood and Honour, and more. The following is from Wikipedia:

Those are not even groups. Even if they organized a rally, they wouldn't have filled a bus :)

edit: This is one article from 2009 about foundation of the movement. As you can see it hasn't even got one comment. Not even negative ones. People don't even know they exist. There is like 100 of them in the whole state, and most of them is in jails. What with them?
http://srbskiporedak.blogspot.com/2009/07/combat-18.html

Anyway what's that got to do with Ukraine? why do you people feel the need to intentionally divert the topic of conversation like this, when you don't have the facts to confront about the subject itself. What's that got to do with problems arising in Ukraine. Are Bosnian and Canadian nazists about to overthrow their governments?

LeBrok
05-03-14, 07:27
No, but they've been dealt with, and now they're in the mice holes.



Those are not even groups. Even if they organized a rally, they wouldn't have filled a bus :)

edit: This is one article from 2009 about foundation of the movement. As you can see it hasn't even got one comment. Not even negative ones. People don't even know they exist. There is like 100 of them in the whole state, and most of them is in jails. What with them?
http://srbskiporedak.blogspot.com/2009/07/combat-18.html

Anyway what's that got to do with Ukraine? why do you people feel the need to intentionally divert the topic of conversation like this, when you don't have the facts to confront about the subject itself. What's that got to do with problems arising in Ukraine. Are Bosnian and Canadian nazists about to overthrow their governments?
Tone of your posts is derogatory towards recent situation in Ukraine and all you post are nazi related pictures to discredit any pro western movement. This is an obsessive and narrow minded behavior. You with your wide geopolitical knowledge should know that there is more to it than nazi. Farther degrading, everything pro western or independent from Russia, in Ukraine to nazi of fascist statement will not be tolerated any longer. You had your chance to be objective, but all we hear and see from you is nazi, nazi, nazi in relation to Ukraine.
Thank you for your "cultured geopolitical" input.

LeBrok
05-03-14, 09:32
There is other thing Putin is afraid of. If Ukraine gets in western influence it will surely join NATO in few years. If it happens Russia's base in Crimea will be in NATO territory.
I think for that reason Putin will not let Crimea go.

Coolboygcp
05-03-14, 11:48
There is other thing Putin is afraid of. If Ukraine gets in western influence it will surely join NATO in few years. If it happens Russia's base in Crimea will be in NATO territory. I think for that reason Putin will not let Crimea go.And with NATO membership would come EU membership.

martiko
05-03-14, 12:22
I never lost my sense, simply became a bit more emotional as usual, understandable if someone tries to play down the oppression which was and still is going on against my people.

I never gave Holland or any other country fault because they sold weapons. This would just go to far and is simply meant to find some guilty for our misery.

But yet, in my opinion countries should be more careful to who they sell weapons.

it is normal that I mean about what you did not say, from the moment you become an advocate for extremist, then you must assume. And enter into contradiction with yourself. But I see that you've reached your limits in this and you start reordering. It is worthy.

martiko
05-03-14, 12:28
There is other thing Putin is afraid of. If Ukraine gets in western influence it will surely join NATO in few years. If it happens Russia's base in Crimea will be in NATO territory.
I think for that reason Putin will not let Crimea go.

I do not think Putin reasons, it is unstable and emotional being, is that Angela Merkel has forgotten not say in private. For all people and also the Russian, it would be advisable not to wait 2018, and if he could not be there, for the happiness of mankind.
At the moment the only real option is to economic war on Russia, Europe without Russia can no longer anything. Yesterday was in France for the first time considered the exploitation of shale oil if necessary. France did not warm position of Germany and even harder than america and yet Putin remains calm with us, then maybe we have the method to talk to him and we are always available to defend the civilian population in Syria already our president pointed out that we could not remain without reaction in the case of Russian troops defile the territory of Ukraine, on the other hand France will revise upward its weapons program and also England, France already significantly reduced trade with Russia, except for Renault and the production and sale sales warship and electronic systems.
since the annexation of Tchettchenia then amputation Georgia tracking threat to Latvia, France to put the economic distance with Putin's Russia and Syria gives us the reason.

Aberdeen
05-03-14, 17:40
There is other thing Putin is afraid of. If Ukraine gets in western influence it will surely join NATO in few years. If it happens Russia's base in Crimea will be in NATO territory.
I think for that reason Putin will not let Crimea go.

I think this is the biggest reason why Russia will not back down, no matter what the cost. Putin doesn't want NATO in Crimea. Everyone in the west (or at least everyone who is sane) is afraid of the big, bad Russian bear, but we have to understand that Russia is afraid of another invasion from the west - the last one is still well remembered in Russia. And Crimea is right below the Russian heartland. Russia wants Crimea, and if possible the rest of the eastern and southern parts of what is now the Ukraine. So anyone who thinks that Russia can be convinced to leave Crimea is fooling themselves, I think. The Russian leaders genuinely think that Russia must fight for Crimea if necessary, in order to be safe. And failing to understand why the other guy is digging in his heels is what leads to war.

martiko
05-03-14, 18:11
I think this is the biggest reason why Russia will not back down, no matter what the cost. Putin doesn't want NATO in Crimea. Everyone in the west (or at least everyone who is sane) is afraid of the big, bad Russian bear, but we have to understand that Russia is afraid of another invasion from the west - the last one is still well remembered in Russia. And Crimea is right below the Russian heartland. Russia wants Crimea, and if possible the rest of the eastern and southern parts of what is now the Ukraine. So anyone who thinks that Russia can be convinced to leave Crimea is fooling themselves, I think. The Russian leaders genuinely think that Russia must fight for Crimea if necessary, in order to be safe. And failing to understand why the other guy is digging in his heels is what leads to war.

I agree with you, it is for fear of Russian modernity that embodies Europe. Putin embodies the old ractionnaire retrograde mentality that wants to use the CIS fortress.
Putin is in the logic of the war of position, Putin can not understand modern weapons, it is still in the Second World War.
It would be easy even for France to take the Crimea and without tanks. But it is even easier to kneel the Russian economy, the Russian will soon wake to the painful reality.

Anton, Bear's den
05-03-14, 19:33
Every civilised country allows gays to have their own magazines, newspapers, websites, etc. Russia has a ban on "gay propaganda".
In the USA itself half of states don't allow gay marriage and stuff... so can we talk about "uncivilised barbarians" in America?


Russia has a ban on "gay propaganda".
In Russia banned only gay propaganda among minors, do you support brainwashing of children?


Russian women aren't totally free
Believe me they are more free than American woman can dream, that is why you have feminism and I do not. And that feminism pretty crazy. I have heard that in America there is a chance to be put behind bars just for a simple sign of attention to woman. I can be jailed for giving flowers to a girl? http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/confused.gif


If they were, they wouldn't have Pussy Riot. Do you not consider Pussy Riot to be feminists? Or do you consider them to be "terrorists" as your government portrays them?

Pussy Riot is your agents to discredit my government, it's like 2X2=4 standard Western subversive activities. Their mission 1) to provoke 2) to get response from government 3) to declare how "bad" my government is... http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif

The problem with west is always the same - it's empire which expanding and it's trying to absorb mine Gårdarike, since Russia have pretty close culture. Russia as an eyesore in the west because RF proves that there is another way of development in some values.

LeBrok
05-03-14, 19:51
I

The problem with west is always the same - it's empire which expanding and it's trying to absorb mine Gårdarike, since Russia have pretty close culture. Russia as an eyesore in the west because RF proves that there is another way of development in some values.
Russia, North Korea, Iran, Taliban, Syria, Venezuela and Al Qaeda (and Ike) are the only countries and organizations having problem with the West. You are in great company!

Can't you realize that methods of Tzars and Soviet Union don't work anymore in modern world? You made all the countries around you into your enemies, except Belarus, Good Job, congratulations!
Now you working hard to alienate Ukraine and making it the biggest one.

Goga
05-03-14, 20:13
Not really true. Russia, Belarus, Armenia, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and maybe Tajikistan are becoming a new UNION again. All HUGE friends of Russia!
China, and many Latin countries in South America will be allies of that Union too. Countries like Brazil (up coming nation), India will drive a trade with that new ('Russian') Union. There're plenty of countries to whom Russia can sell its oil and gas. From the Eastern Europe all the way to China those countries will live in harmony with each other!
The U.S. wanted 1 NEW world order. But thank god this will never happen! Ok, maybe it will be a cold war again, but it is still better than 1 new world order with the U.S. on top!

The U.S. FAILED big time, all what they try to do is to take as much territory away from Russia!

LeBrok
05-03-14, 20:33
Interesting survey of Russians:
http://www.russiavotes.org/images-600/sld057.gif
80% of Russians dream about Great Empire!
That's what I've said before. It is not just Putin as dictator against ordinary Russians. Putin is a "consolidation" of most Russian's desires.

LeBrok
05-03-14, 20:45
Levada Centre (http://www.levada.ru/) published the result of the poll conducted in May among 1600 Russians. The results give an interesting picture of what countries Russians consider its friends and what countries its enemies.
So, people think that the following countries are friends of Russia:
1. Byelorussia 46%
2. Germany 23%
3. Kazakhstan 20%
4. Ukraine 17%
5. India 16%
6. France 13%
7. China 12%
8. USA 11%
9. Bulgaria 11%
10. Armenia 10%
And the list of enemies of Russia:
1. Latvia 49%
2. Lithuania 48%
3. Georgia 38%
4. Estonia 32%
5. USA 23%
6. Ukraine 13%
7. Afghanistan 12%
8. Iraq 10%
9. Japan 6%
10. Iran 6%
Ukraine and the USA are in both lists. That tells a lot.
http://konstantin2005.blogspot.ca/2005/06/friends-and-enemies-of-russia.html

http://en.ria.ru/images/18250/83/182508356.jpg
http://en.ria.ru/infographics/20130730/182491560/Friend-or-Foe--How-Russians-View-Other-Countries.html


It would be equally interesting to find what other countries think about Russia.

Aberdeen
05-03-14, 20:58
I agree with you, it is for fear of Russian modernity that embodies Europe. Putin embodies the old ractionnaire retrograde mentality that wants to use the CIS fortress.
Putin is in the logic of the war of position, Putin can not understand modern weapons, it is still in the Second World War.
It would be easy even for France to take the Crimea and without tanks. But it is even easier to kneel the Russian economy, the Russian will soon wake to the painful reality.

You don't understand. Russia is in fact quite strong. And yet Russians are fearful, because of the horrible slaughter of Russians during WWII. Before the problems with the Ukraine erupted, Russians were preoccupied with protecting their flank in the Balkans, which is probably why LeBrok's charts show that the average Russian was most likely to see a Baltic country as Russia's worst enemy. But now Russia is thinking about the possibility of NATO troops being able to enter Crimea, so now Russia is preoccupied with protecting its southwest flank. Putin will not have a difficult time convincing the average Russian to be afraid of the spectre of NATO (including German) troops being able to gather south of the Russian heartland. That's why the situation in the Ukraine is such a dangerous situation - Russia won't back down at any cost.

Typo - I meant "Russians were preoccupied with protecting their flank in the Baltic"

Ike
05-03-14, 21:32
Tone of your posts is derogatory towards recent situation in Ukraine and all you post are nazi related pictures to discredit any pro western movement. This is an obsessive and narrow minded behavior. You with your wide geopolitical knowledge should know that there is more to it than nazi.

Obviously, because that's the one of the biggest problems in the Ukraine at the moment.



Farther degrading, everything pro western or independent from Russia, in Ukraine to nazi of fascist statement will not be tolerated any longer.
Everything? Where have I said that? Why are you making things up again? Where have I mentioned Russia anyway in that context. I've never connected the Ukrainian nazi problem with Russians, and still haven't related to them in any serious way. My question was about western leaders which don't support democratic choice of the people, and support violent revolution without demanding for the new elections.

The fact that you didn't react when real statement of that kind was made from the other side, shows that you didn't notice it cause that you thought that kind of thinking is normal :) This reveals your position, and your bias.

The EU is good, The West is good, and Russia and it's allies are the ones that are bad, the ones that sensible nations in the international community do nit respect, because they are all a group of bullies and assholes.



You had your chance to be objective, but all we hear and see from you is nazi, nazi, nazi in relation to Ukraine.
Thank you for your "cultured geopolitical" input.

So what would be better topic at this moment? To ignore the nazi problem, and to talk about Ukrainian money color, or the weather in the Ukraine?
If you don't recognize the problem it's fine with me, but why are you so eager to shut other people up and not let 'em discuss?

And why are you again trying to make it like I want to make look Ukraine a nazi country. It is totally not true, it has nothing to do with what I am talking about. The precise percentage of nazis in their country could be probably found somewhere on the internet, but it's of no real importance what number it is. Problem is why do "self-proclaimed" democratic countries try to keep their involvement in the Ukrainian revolution hidden.

LeBrok
05-03-14, 22:09
Obviously, because that's the one of the biggest problems in the Ukraine at the moment. Yes it is a problem but way behind poverty and foreign troops on their soil, which you failed to address with your self proclamed geopolitical expertise.





Everything? Where have I said that? Why are you making things up again? Where have I mentioned Russia anyway in that context. I've never connected the Ukrainian nazi problem with Russians, and still haven't related to them in any serious way. My question was about western leaders which don't support democratic choice of the people, and support violent revolution without demanding for the new elections.

The fact that you didn't react when real statement of that kind was made from the other side, shows that you didn't notice it cause that you thought that kind of thinking is normal :) This reveals your position, and your bias.

So what would be better topic at this moment? To ignore the nazi problem, and to talk about Ukrainian money color, or the weather in the Ukraine?
If you don't recognize the problem it's fine with me, but why are you so eager to shut other people up and not let 'em discuss?

And why are you again trying to make it like I want to make look Ukraine a nazi country. It is totally not true, it has nothing to do with what I am talking about. The precise percentage of nazis in their country could be probably found somewhere on the internet, but it's of no real importance what number it is. Problem is why do "self-proclaimed" democratic countries try to keep their involvement in the Ukrainian revolution hidden.
Your "objectivism" is well known on Eupedia on this thread and any thread about Albanians. Looks like degrading ethnicities that you don't like is your hobby.

Coolboygcp
05-03-14, 23:36
No, but they've been dealt with, and now they're in the mice holes.



Those are not even groups. Even if they organized a rally, they wouldn't have filled a bus :)

edit: This is one article from 2009 about foundation of the movement. As you can see it hasn't even got one comment. Not even negative ones. People don't even know they exist. There is like 100 of them in the whole state, and most of them is in jails. What with them?
http://srbskiporedak.blogspot.com/2009/07/combat-18.html

Anyway what's that got to do with Ukraine? why do you people feel the need to intentionally divert the topic of conversation like this, when you don't have the facts to confront about the subject itself. What's that got to do with problems arising in Ukraine. Are Bosnian and Canadian nazists about to overthrow their governments?

I guess once again, you are wrong. Combat 18 has tons of foreign money flowing in, and is becoming quite powerful. Did you even read one of my last posts? I guess you didn't. Here is is below:


The photo LeBrok posted featured a photo of Combat 18 members, who are acting legally in Serbia. Below is an article about them:


“Blood and Honor” was formed in Serbia in 1995, and the base of the organization is in the UK. Number 18 represents the first and the eighth letter of the alphabet – initials of Adolf Hitler.

A large number of neo-Nazi organizations are at the same time the nucleus of the “United Force” fan group of FK “Rad”.

In addition to “Blood and Honor”, in Serbia there are three other neo-Nazi organizations – ” skinheads” , ” racial nationalists” and “National Front”.

Unlike the “National Front”, which exists in 18 countries, and the “skinheads” which were the official organizations, “Blood and Honor” was organized as a violent underground movement.

That group has no leading figure in Serbia, as “Obraz” (Mladen Obradovic) and the “National Front” (Goran Davidovic Fuhrer) has, but the conceptual core makes convicted older members organized in cells like a terrorist group.

“National Front” was banned in June 2011 and “Obraz” was banned a year later.

“Blood and Honor” organized in 2003 the combat unit “Combat 18″.

What particularly makes “Blood and Honor” and “Combat 18″ dangerous is international funding, whose assets are intended to spread Nazi propaganda, publishing magazines and websites, and to help the arrested members.

The money is also intended for travel to meetings, and to carry out violent actions.

martiko
06-03-14, 00:38
You don't understand. Russia is in fact quite strong. And yet Russians are fearful, because of the horrible slaughter of Russians during WWII. Before the problems with the Ukraine erupted, Russians were preoccupied with protecting their flank in the Balkans, which is probably why LeBrok's charts show that the average Russian was most likely to see a Baltic country as Russia's worst enemy. But now Russia is thinking about the possibility of NATO troops being able to enter Crimea, so now Russia is preoccupied with protecting its southwest flank. Putin will not have a difficult time convincing the average Russian to be afraid of the spectre of NATO (including German) troops being able to gather south of the Russian heartland. That's why the situation in the Ukraine is such a dangerous situation - Russia won't back down at any cost.

if you think that Russia is strong is that you've never been.
Russia is big but only its surface, you're a little naive to think that the surface = power
Russia militarily for fear of France and the UK but not Germany. Currently Russia needs France for its modern military equipment; France is his supplier.
You do not know much the actual geopolitical situation.
Today France has succeeded in forcing germany and therefore to Europe via IMF with EUROPEANBANK 11 Billions euros with emergency 1 billion that poured U.S., this equates to 12 billion Russian.
And it is expected more aid and a process of rapid integration into the European economy.
This is achieved by France, UK, USA.
The U.S. will also vote funding to help Ukraine and we may be the answer tomorrow, on the other hand the non-Russian gas should be supplied to Ukraine.
The party has already begun and the grant of French stocks fell of 2 %, for Russia it is 15 % and it risks of accelerer; France which imports 10 % of the gas of Russia is going to bring back the rate to 0 %, France asks in Germany to reduce its percentage.

Coolboygcp
06-03-14, 01:03
You don't understand. Russia is in fact quite strong. And yet Russians are fearful, because of the horrible slaughter of Russians during WWII. Before the problems with the Ukraine erupted, Russians were preoccupied with protecting their flank in the Balkans, which is probably why LeBrok's charts show that the average Russian was most likely to see a Baltic country as Russia's worst enemy. But now Russia is thinking about the possibility of NATO troops being able to enter Crimea, so now Russia is preoccupied with protecting its southwest flank. Putin will not have a difficult time convincing the average Russian to be afraid of the spectre of NATO (including German) troops being able to gather south of the Russian heartland. That's why the situation in the Ukraine is such a dangerous situation - Russia won't back down at any cost.

Russia has the seventh-largest economy in the world. The European Union has the biggest economy in the world. The United States has the second-largest economy in the world. The EU is Russia's largest trading partner. And over 80% of Russian gas exports go to the EU. Russian state-owned companies like Lukoil operate in many western markets like the EU, and the US. Whenever I go on a highway in the US, I always see dozens of Lukoil stations. Most EU nations are part of NATO, which has the largest army in the world by budget. Russia has the third-largest army by budget in the world, and the fifth-largest military in the world by personnel size. Russia has 140,000,000 people. Indonesia has 238,000,000 people. The EU has about 508,000,000 people. The EU has almost four times the population of Russia. (And the EU's population will only grow with the addition of nations like Turkey, which is forecasted to have over 100,000,000 by 2040-2050.) Russia has a declining birthdate, and the birthdate of ethnic Russians is lower than Siberians, Asian Russians, Chechens, Chinese Russians, Koreans Russians, etc.

Russia is only in decline. (Other than it's emerging middle class), and it's influence is becoming weaker and weaker. Sure they are trying to reverse this trend with initiatives like The Eurasian Union, and invading Crimea, invading George and installing puppet regimes, etc. But they will not succeed in this. Even if The Eurasian Union is formed, it will never be as large, or as powerful as The Soviet Union.

In addition, because of The EU being Russia's largest trading partner, it is idiotic for Russia to be doing what they are doing in the Crimea. If The EU placed economic sanctions on Russia, it would cripple Russia'a economy, and Russia would probably disintegrate into anarchy. At a time where many EU countries are going to tap into their natural gas deposits in order to decrease reliance on Russia, Putin does the stupidest decision of his career. I believe Putin thinks that the Crimea situation will be just like in South Ossetia and Abzhakia, where the international community didn't do anything about it, and let Russia take those two regions. But this is quite different. The EU and The West want Crimea and the Ukraine to be in their sphere of influence (to sign the Association Agreement, and later join The EU), and Ukraine wants this. Russia wants Crimea and the southern and eastern parts of Ukraine. And I really do not think The West will let them get them permeantly.

And also, what are you talking about "Russia's flank in The Balkans.", Russia has no territory, land, or oblast in The Balkans. It hasn't since the days of The Russian Empire!

So, in conclusion, Russia is not as powerful as you think it to be. Russia is now, as the Soviets would say, "a third world country."

Coolboygcp
06-03-14, 01:48
Not really true. Russia, Belarus, Armenia, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and maybe Tajikistan are becoming a new UNION again. All HUGE friends of Russia!

Other than Russia, they are all minor countries, with no real power, that no country other than Russia cares about. (The only way most people have heard of Kazakhstan is through Borat, anyway.) :laughing:

These countries all just follow Russia's orders, if Putin says the Ukraine's new government is illegitimate, and the result of an illegal coup, they will do the same. They are practically puppet nations.

And give Armenia time, but the Armenian people will have their own EuroMaidan, and their own revolution against their pro-Russian puppet of a leader. The same situation that triggered this crisis in Ukraine has occurred in Armenia. The leader of Armenia decided, at the least minute, to not sign The Association Agreement with The EU. To sign it would have been in the best interests of his people, but instead he has decided to join Russia's Customs Union, and The Eurasian Union. (Only because he follows Putin's orders, and what Putin says goes, and Putin didn't want him to sign the AA, and eventually join The EU.) Hopefully one day, the people of these countries oust their leaders, and install new leaders who will lead them on the path to Europe, freedom, and liberty.

[QUOTE=Goga]China, and many Latin countries in South America will be allies of that Union too. Countries like Brazil (up coming nation), India will drive a trade with that new ('Russian') Union. There're plenty of countries to whom Russia can sell its oil and gas. From the Eastern Europe all the way to China those countries will live in harmony with each other!
The U.S. wanted 1 NEW world order. But thank god this will never happen! Ok, maybe it will be a cold war again, but it is still better than 1 new world order with the U.S. on top!

The U.S. FAILED big time, all what they try to do is to take as much territory away from Russia!
China will be allies with whoever it pays for them to be allies with. China is not really communist. They are a corrupt dictatorship who only cares about making money. So, if they will do business with and make money with The Eurasian Union, then sure, they will be allies with them. But, they will be allies with The EU too, if they can make money off of them. The only Latin American nation that will be The Eurasian Union's ally will be Venezeula (but, it seems like they are going to depose their current leader, so if they do that, then they won't be allies with the EaU.)

All other Latin American countries care about improving trade and relations with the big, powerful nations. Most Latin American countries and regional blocs like MERCOSUR, etc, are working on Association Agreements, Free Trade Agreements, and various other treaties with The EU. None of them that I know of are doing this with Russia at the moment. Many Latin American countries have very close relations with The EU as a whole, or eU members; for examples Argentina and Spain, Brazil and Portugal, The UK and Chile, Italy and Argentina, Mexico and Spain, etc.

India's PM and David Cameron (British PM), have talked about "The New Special Relationship", between India and The UK. The UK wants to strengthen it's ties with Commonwealth countries, and India is the largest (and arguably most important) Commonwealth nation. India and The UK are very close, and have a very close, and good relationship. To think that India would leave The Commonwealth of Nations, and forge ties with a much weaker, smaller, less important union with little clout would be ridiculous. Many in The UK even want to leave The EU, and create a Commonwealth Union between different Commonwealth nations, or even stay in The EU, and incorporate some of The Commonwealth nations into The EU.

Vast majority (80%) of Russian gas and oil goes to EU nations. Many EU nations are going to get their own gas and oil in order to nit be dependent on Russia. When they do this, Russia's economy will shrink, and once they don't need any or little Russian gas and oil, the Russian economy will tank. Most of Russia's allies (Iran, Venezuela, different former Soviet nations, China, North Korea, etc) have their own gas reserves, and are, or will tap into them. Thus, in the near future (5 years, probably, maybe 10), Russia will only be able to export it in very small numbers, and this will only hurt Russia economically, and power-wise.

Russia and it's neighbours will not "live in harmony together!", as LeBrok has noted, Russia views mosts of it's neighbours and other countries as enemies. Such as, The EU, Japan, Afghanistan, Georgia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, The Baltics, Finland, The US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Mexico, much of Africa, most of Latin America, South Korea, and many more.

Oh, the New World Order? :laughing:

That makes you sound quite credible. "What, are the Americans conspiring with the Europeans, the Grey Aliens, the Illuminati, ExxonMobil, Microsoft, the Commonwealth, and other to take over the world and plunge it into a dictatorship where no freedom is allowed? But no, great, free, haven of democracy and freedom, Mother Russia has saved the world from this once again!" :laughing:

If you get your "Kurdistan" (which I doubt), will it join this free, just, and great "Russian Union"?

First you say you are a Kurd. And that The West is oppressing all Kurds, has committed genocide of your people, gassed them, etc. Then you say you love The Netherlands, Europe, and The West. Then you say that the government of The Netherlands were the ones who gassed your people, killed them, etc. And that The West is bad, and wants to kill all Kurds, and that The British Empire made Kurds slaves. And then you say Russia has saved us from a New World Order, that Russia is a free country, that Russia has many friends and allies, and all this bullshit. Are you schizophrenic or are you just a flip-flopper?

And also to correct you, The British never made the Kurds slaves, the Kurds were insignificant to the British, as they are insignificant to the world, they have always been, and they still are today. The British treated the Kurds much better than post-colonial administrations did. And Churchill was a little bit preoccupied (ever heard or World War 2, of the bombing of Britain, or the invasion of many British territories by the Japanese, or losing a great empire?), to do the things you said he did to the Kurds.

I do not know where you read this horse manure, but read some actual history books, and read actual "facts" about history, about Russia, etc.

Aberdeen
06-03-14, 02:02
if you think that Russia is strong is that you've never been.
Russia is big but only its surface, you're a little naive to think that the surface = power
Russia militarily for fear of France and the UK but not Germany. Currently Russia needs France for its modern military equipment; France is his supplier.
You do not know much the actual geopolitical situation.
Today France has succeeded in forcing germany and therefore to Europe via IMF with EUROPEANBANK 11 Billions euros with emergency 1 billion that poured U.S., this equates to 12 billion Russian.
And it is expected more aid and a process of rapid integration into the European economy.
This is achieved by France, UK, USA.
The U.S. will also vote funding to help Ukraine and we may be the answer tomorrow, on the other hand the non-Russian gas should be supplied to Ukraine.
The party has already begun and the grant of French stocks fell of 2 %, for Russia it is 15 % and it risks of accelerer; France which imports 10 % of the gas of Russia is going to bring back the rate to 0 %, France asks in Germany to reduce its percentage.

No, I've never been to Russia, but I know Russia has a huge army, with lots of guns and tanks and aircraft, while France and Germany have very small armies in comparison, although the German armed forces seem to be very efficient. The French military is kind of a joke, actually. And western Europe is dependent on Russian natural gas, although it flows through Ukrainian pipelines, which makes things interesting.

Aberdeen
06-03-14, 02:07
.................



..............
And also, what are you talking about "Russia's flank in The Balkans.", Russia has no territory, land, or oblast in The Balkans. It hasn't since the days of The Russian Empire!

............

That was a typo. I mean "Baltic", not "Balkans", which should have been obvious from the context of what I said.

LeBrok
06-03-14, 03:04
Not really true. Russia, Belarus, Armenia, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and maybe Tajikistan are becoming a new UNION again. All HUGE friends of Russia!
China, and many Latin countries in South America will be allies of that Union too. Countries like Brazil (up coming nation), India will drive a trade with that new ('Russian') Union. There're plenty of countries to whom Russia can sell its oil and gas. From the Eastern Europe all the way to China those countries will live in harmony with each other!
The U.S. wanted 1 NEW world order. But thank god this will never happen! Ok, maybe it will be a cold war again, but it is still better than 1 new world order with the U.S. on top!

The U.S. FAILED big time, all what they try to do is to take as much territory away from Russia!

This is how powerful economically Russia (the Custom Union) is in today's world:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/34/World_GDP.gif

Come and join Russian Union!
Even China is dwarfing now russian economic output. Looking at this map it is logical for Russia to look for partnership and defence with EU. Unfortunately Putin and many Russians still believe in Russian Empire.
Well, not in this century and not with 150 million people.

kokki
06-03-14, 06:56
Мисля, че се разглежда Русия като територия, брой хора и брутен вътрешен продукт е наивен и крие много неща. Ресурси, които могат да мобилизират тази страна / аз дори не знам дали "страна" е думата / винаги надвишава това, което показват различни графики и статистики. Освен това, аз съм сигурен, че руснаците уважават и ценят европейските културни ценности, но изпълнението им е трудно / за сега / там.

Coolboygcp
06-03-14, 08:58
Мисля, че се разглежда Русия като територия, брой хора и брутен вътрешен продукт е наивен и крие много неща. Ресурси, които могат да мобилизират тази страна / аз дори не знам дали "страна" е думата / винаги надвишава това, което показват различни графики и статистики. Освен това, аз съм сигурен, че руснаците уважават и ценят европейските културни ценности, но изпълнението им е трудно / за сега / там.English translation via Google Translate:
I think Russia is seen as a territory, number of people and gross domestic product is naive and hides many things. Resources that can mobilize this country / I do not even know if "country" is the word /

martiko
06-03-14, 11:37
you awaken are not us any more in 1941 but 2014.
The France is by military means the most independent and most powerful country of Europe.
France does not have vital need of Russian gas; France as Americans has troops in its main points of supply and it is not the case of Germany.
Therefore France is independent of Russia but Russia is partly dependent on France.

mihaitzateo
06-03-14, 13:21
Crimea now it is autonomous and I think in the future should be independent.
And Romania,Ukraine,Turkey,Bulgaria,Crimea,Georgia should vote that no military ships of either NATO or Russia should be allowed in Black Sea.
If NATO and Russia want to fight,they can fight,but not in Black Sea.
I do not really care about "geo strategic" interests of US and other NATO large powers or Russia in Black Sea.UK,US,France,Russia,US have no rights to Black Sea.
They should get their military ships out of there and stop putting people to fight between them.
Is true that Russia have some part of Black Sea side,but Black Sea should be used only for tourism,fishing etc and not for fighting,which will lead to massive pollution in the area and would disturb the lives of most people here,which are living peacefully.
The high powers leaders are pure idiots with no respect for nature and life of ordinary people.
Bulgarians,Romanians,Ukrainians,Russians,Tatars,Go ths,Turks,Greeks and other nations were living here very peacefully.Suddenly,Ukrainians started to fight.
Why?
Russia on one side and US and EU agitators on the other side having interests in the region,enraged these people between them,they made bloodshed between brothers,carrying only about their "geo strategic interests" . Both US/NATO and Russia want Crimea under their dark wings.Why?
To deploy military ships in the region (For US/NATO)/keep their existing war ships in the region (Russia).
Idiots.
I am pretty sure average citizen of Russia that lives near Black Sea side do not want either Russia war ships deployed in the region.

Ike
06-03-14, 15:58
Yes it is a problem but way behind poverty and foreign troops on their soil, which you failed to address with your self proclamed geopolitical expertise.

No it isn't because that was the problem that initiated those two you mentioned.
Ukraine was not poor, but now it is more than it was 6 months ago. Even if it gets out of this charade, it will take it a year or two just to get back where it was in 2013. Was a civil war worth it? Is Yanaukovich's decision to postpone joining some Trading organization that bad? If it really was, then people of Ukraine would have rewarded him for that next year on regular elections. Civil war is way worse option than waiting another year to see if he had showed up good enough to the mandate given by the people.


Your "objectivism" is well known on Eupedia on this thread and any thread about Albanians. Looks like degrading ethnicities that you don't like is your hobby.

Lies. What ethnicities have I degraded and how?
In fact this one post I've made on one thread concerning Albanians just 4 days ago was about how nice it is to see them Serbs and Albanians finally finding the mutual language, and posted the video about the intermarriage:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27710-Illyrian-Albanian-Continuity?p=427326&viewfull=1#post427326

You can clearly see both Albanian and Serbian flag together in the video.

Ike
06-03-14, 16:18
I guess once again, you are wrong. Combat 18 has tons of foreign money flowing in, and is becoming quite powerful. Did you even read one of my last posts? I guess you didn't. Here is is below:

I've read it. I've been to Serbia. I know about all those groups. I'm currently living in Serbia, and I have to know about problematic groups that could beat me up, just because they don't like my ethnicity or clothing. And I'm telling you that you don't know what you're talking about, and you don't know much about nacism and it's history in Yugoslavia.


Disregarding that, please present why would any Nazis from Balkans be the subject of conversation at this moment? What have they done lately (in last 2 years for example) to provoke your reaction? I've heard they've broken some window last year in Vojvodina, though....

Aberdeen
06-03-14, 16:43
Apparently, Americans have no sense of irony or self-awareness. American Secretary of State John Kerry, in talking about events in Crimea, said:

"It is not appropriate to invade a country, and at the end of a barrel of a gun dictate what you are trying to achieve. That is not 21st-century, G-8, major nation behaviour."

LeBrok
06-03-14, 18:11
Apparently, Americans have no sense of irony or self-awareness. American Secretary of State John Kerry, in talking about events in Crimea, said:

"It is not appropriate to invade a country, and at the end of a barrel of a gun dictate what you are trying to achieve. That is not 21st-century, G-8, major nation behaviour."I think Obama is much better in wording, to make sure what he says can't backfire.


Americans have no sense of irony or self-awareness
I'm sure you don't mean all Americans.

LeBrok
06-03-14, 18:30
No it isn't because that was the problem that initiated those two you mentioned.
Ukraine was not poor, but now it is more than it was 6 months ago. Even if it gets out of this charade, it will take it a year or two just to get back where it was in 2013. Was a civil war worth it? Is Yanaukovich's decision to postpone joining some Trading organization that bad? If it really was, then people of Ukraine would have rewarded him for that next year on regular elections. Civil war is way worse option than waiting another year to see if he had showed up good enough to the mandate given by the people.
As usually you're mixing causes with effects. History shows again and again, either in Ukraine, Serbia, France, Russia or Germany, or whereever, that ultra nationalism or communism, rise in age of poverty and recession. Also most revolts and revolutions happen during times of poverty. How can you say then that nazism in Ukraine caused poverty? Poverty is alway the cause of extremist movements, and vice versa in times of plenty all politics gravitates into the middle of the spectrum and tolerance.
This is in line with human psychology. In distress we tend to chose more drastic and extreme methods to achieve goals or just to survive. In peace we are more open, generous, caring and tolerant.
There is no secret how it works, You are just lost in your understanding.




Lies. What ethnicities have I degraded and how?
In fact this one post I've made on one thread concerning Albanians just 4 days ago was about how nice it is to see them Serbs and Albanians finally finding the mutual language, and posted the video about the intermarriage:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27710-Illyrian-Albanian-Continuity?p=427326&viewfull=1#post427326

You can clearly see both Albanian and Serbian flag together in the video.
It is great Ike, I'm happy you showed a human face, you are not totally bad.

LeBrok
06-03-14, 19:20
Crimea now it is autonomous and I think in the future should be independent.
And Romania,Ukraine,Turkey,Bulgaria,Crimea,Georgia should vote that no military ships of either NATO or Russia should be allowed in Black Sea.
If NATO and Russia want to fight,they can fight,but not in Black Sea.
I do not really care about "geo strategic" interests of US and other NATO large powers or Russia in Black Sea.UK,US,France,Russia,US have no rights to Black Sea.
They should get their military ships out of there and stop putting people to fight between them.
Is true that Russia have some part of Black Sea side,but Black Sea should be used only for tourism,fishing etc and not for fighting,which will lead to massive pollution in the area and would disturb the lives of most people here,which are living peacefully.
I'm for it.





The high powers leaders are pure idiots with no respect for nature and life of ordinary people.
Bulgarians,Romanians,Ukrainians,Russians,Tatars,Go ths,Turks,Greeks and other nations were living here very peacefully.Suddenly,Ukrainians started to fight.
Why?

It is nothing unusual for a new country to go through deep political crisis. In case of Ukraine two strong blocks, one pro Russia and one is pro EU. Ukraine and Russia are brand new democracies too and still lost in democratic ways. On top of it, Russia is creating a big problem forcing Ukraine to chose between Russia and EU. Actually Putin is forcing Ukraine to chose Russia obviously. In it's old imperial politics Putin with its "court" can't let a new idea to their heads, that it would be possible for Ukraine to be pro Russian and pro EU at the same time. They should also think in line of joining EU and Nato in future. Alone they are not in position to counterbalance huge forces of fast growing Asia.



Russia on one side and US and EU agitators on the other side having interests in the region,enraged these people between them,they made bloodshed between brothers,carrying only about their "geo strategic interests"
Give some more credit to Ukrainians. Alone they are capable enough of creating big political and economical mess. You don't need external agitators to start internal conflicts. It is just a big Ukrainian mess, their country with dual personality, multiethnic, long history of foreign dominance, and very fresh democracy. We should cut them some slack.

Anton, Bear's den
06-03-14, 19:28
Russia, North Korea, Iran, Taliban, Syria, Venezuela and Al Qaeda (and Ike) are the only countries and organizations having problem with the West. You are in great company!

Majority of countries in the world has a problem with your bully elephant America and their small fry like UK or Canada, they are just afraid to say so... while Russia don't afraid. Be careful, the elephant will not be always around http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif

And Taliban is anglo-saxon "invention", are not they? Anglo-Saxons support fundamentalist fanatics without hesitation if it is in their interest. Your lapdog-ally Saudi Arabia the world's biggest sponsor of terrorism ever, Saudis still practice chopping off heads and medival barbarity inside the country. Why you hypocrites always silent about them?


Can't you realize that methods of Tzars and Soviet Union don't work anymore in modern world? You made all the countries around you into your enemies, except Belarus, Good Job, congratulations!

We have a lot of friends around the globe, from Cuba & Venezuela to Nicaragua and Vietnam. There is a huge request in the world to resist "western importers of democracy". The world is already fed up with the Anglo-Saxons.

Soviet Union would not chew snots and watch how nazis with western support assault Kiev, it would have sent tanks to meet them. While Russia's dumb democracy just protests and looking for a compromise...http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/useless.gif

LeBrok
06-03-14, 21:13
Majority of countries in the world has a problem with your bully elephant America and their small fry like UK or Canada, they are just afraid to say so... while Russia don't afraid. Be careful, the elephant will not be always around http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif And Russia will be?
I like your analogy though. You see elephant won't step on small creatures like mice. He is a very gentle and wise. Bear on the other hand will attack and eat everything.


And Taliban is anglo-saxon "invention", are not they? Anglo-Saxons support fundamentalist fanatics without hesitation if it is in their interest. Your lapdog-ally Saudi Arabia the world's biggest sponsor of terrorism ever, Saudis still practice chopping off heads and medival barbarity inside the country. Why you hypocrites always silent about them? Who is silent on them? There are documentaries, books, movies and even news from time to time on this subject.


We have a lot of friends around the globe, from Cuba & Venezuela to Nicaragua and Vietnam. There is a huge request in the world to resist "western importers of democracy". The world is already fed up with the Anglo-Saxons. All "successful" countries with failed economies lol. That's right it is your club, enjoy.
It is interesting that they were friends of Soviet Union since communist took power in these countries. Doesn't make it a pattern? If you want to fail and be poor become a friend of Russia.


Soviet Union would not chew snots and watch how nazis with western support assault Kiev, it would have sent tanks to meet them. While Russia's dumb democracy just protests and looking for a compromise...http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/useless.gifYes, we are aware of your real attitude, the bear's way. And you wonder why most countries are afraid to have Russia as a friend. Thanks for opening up.

Aberdeen
07-03-14, 00:00
I don't like Putin the strong man and I think Russia is dangerous. But the reality is that Russia has a lot more reason to be in Crimea than America has to be in Iraq. Prior to the 20th century, when was Crimea ever a part of the Ukraine?

Ike
07-03-14, 00:26
As usually you're mixing causes with effects. History shows again and again, either in Ukraine, Serbia, France, Russia or Germany, or whereever, that ultra nationalism or communism, rise in age of poverty and recession. Also most revolts and revolutions happen during times of poverty. How can you say then that nazism in Ukraine caused poverty?

Ukraine was not poor, it is in fact richer than ever before. If you look how Ukrainians lived 30, 60 or 90 years ago, the trend is obvious, the quality of living is better. There are two problems, though:

1. They are not rich enough as they wanna be. OK, they elected Yanaukovich, he didn't fulfill his promises about life standards, he'll get out of the president room first time possible. It's not like he signed an alliance with the Devil or he's trying to sell Ukrainian land as a nuclear waste dump, so that swift reaction should be taken. You can't go around raising chaos, burning city and terrorizing people, unless you have pretty good reason for it. Just not liking the current president is simply not an excuse. Next, also had parliamentary elections in 2012 for which we have results:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Ukr_elections_2012_onemandate_okruhs.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Ukr_elections_2012_multimandate_okruhs.png

So, what about the will of all the people that voted? It should be tossed down the sewer? Just because city of Kiev is in the purple zone, and majority of citizens are protesting against the party from which they lost the elections, that doesn't mean it's the majority in the whole country. Citizens of Kiev can't act like spoiled children, trying to inflict their ideas by force once they didn't do it the legal way in 2012.



2. People were demonstrating against various problems. If nazis didn't show up to spice up the things the chaos probably wouldn't broke up. Right at the moment when violence started I was excepting the Western countries to speak up against it. It didn't happen. They went on backing it up. Once nationalistic and nazi forces got aware that their actions are greeted from the West they got courage to act more freely, and started endangering people's freedom.

As a result, we have Ukraine "at stop" for months, which means it's losing money. We have the direct damage that protesters have done, which will be estimated in months to come. We also have an extra money that state is paying to the police to try to keep law and order in Ukraine. If all that didn't happen, we'd have Ukraine with some amount of money and low standard voting for Klitschko at the end of the year. This way we could have Ukraine with (same amount of money - billions of $), even lower standard, ruined city, lots of dead and again Klitschko in power.... maybe ... if riots end by then, and if whole country doesn't fall apart.

martiko
07-03-14, 01:03
I don't like Putin the strong man and I think Russia is dangerous. But the reality is that Russia has a lot more reason to be in Crimea than America has to be in Iraq. Prior to the 20th century, when was Crimea ever a part of the Ukraine?

everybody knows that Russia is born in Crimea, and we basques demand France Spain, Germany and England and we have of better reason than you according to what you write in rubric on basques.
We are going to ask your friend Putin to use to come in Germany
I answer absurd by contradiction, so we speak the same nationalist and bellicose language

martiko
07-03-14, 01:09
Ukraine was not poor, it is in fact richer than ever before. If you look how Ukrainians lived 30, 60 or 90 years ago, the trend is obvious, the quality of living is better. There are two problems, though:

1. They are not rich enough as they wanna be. OK, they elected Yanaukovich, he didn't fulfill his promises about life standards, he'll get out of the president room first time possible. It's not like he signed an alliance with the Devil or he's trying to sell Ukrainian land as a nuclear waste dump, so that swift reaction should be taken. You can't go around raising chaos, burning city and terrorizing people, unless you have pretty good reason for it. Just not liking the current president is simply not an excuse. Next, also had parliamentary elections in 2012 for which we have results:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Ukr_elections_2012_onemandate_okruhs.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Ukr_elections_2012_multimandate_okruhs.png

So, what about the will of all the people that voted? It should be tossed down the sewer? Just because city of Kiev is in the purple zone, and majority of citizens are protesting against the party from which they lost the elections, that doesn't mean it's the majority in the whole country. Citizens of Kiev can't act like spoiled children, trying to inflict their ideas by force once they didn't do it the legal way in 2012.



2. People were demonstrating against various problems. If nazis didn't show up to spice up the things the chaos probably wouldn't broke up. Right at the moment when violence started I was excepting the Western countries to speak up against it. It didn't happen. They went on backing it up. Once nationalistic and nazi forces got aware that their actions are greeted from the West they got courage to act more freely, and started endangering people's freedom.

As a result, we have Ukraine "at stop" for months, which means it's losing money. We have the direct damage that protesters have done, which will be estimated in months to come. We also have an extra money that state is paying to the police to try to keep law and order in Ukraine. If all that didn't happen, we'd have Ukraine with some amount of money and low standard voting for Klitschko at the end of the year. This way we could have Ukraine with (same amount of money - billions of $), even lower standard, ruined city, lots of dead and again Klitschko in power.... maybe ... if riots end by then, and if whole country doesn't fall apart.

You have all qualities of delimited people and it is not us but you who are a nationalist and can be fachiste, according to what I can read of what you write, but you do not cope; I would not have liked to know you in 1940
in Russia a demonstration counters war: 400 demonstrators =400 muscular arrests.

LeBrok
07-03-14, 01:37
I don't like Putin the strong man and I think Russia is dangerous. But the reality is that Russia has a lot more reason to be in Crimea than America has to be in Iraq. Prior to the 20th century, when was Crimea ever a part of the Ukraine?
Sure, if Russia didn't give Crimea to Ukraine we wouldn't have the Crimea problem now. But somehow they gave it away. Now, after some reflection, Russia takes it back. I would say it is not right.

There is also problem with Ukraine. Till 1991 it never existed as an independent country. So how do we assign any territory to a country which never existed? I guess, demographics of ethnicities are playing a role here. Overall it was by communist party decret of Soviet Union that gave Ukraine today's shape. If Soviet leaders could predict current situation in advance, they wouldn't have been as generous as they were creating Ukrainian Soviet Republic. Ukraine would be much smaller and definitely without Crimea.

Aberdeen
07-03-14, 01:40
everybody knows that Russia is born in Crimea, and we basques demand France Spain, Germany and England and we have of better reason than you according to what you write in rubric on basques.
We are going to ask your friend Putin to use to come in Germany
I answer absurd by contradiction, so we speak the same nationalist and bellicose language

I've never commented on the Basques, other than to wonder whether they were in Iberia during the Neolithic and whether they may have brought Y haplotype R1b with them, rather than acquiring it later. And I'm certainly no friend of Putin - I think the Ukraine would be better off with the west, but I also think that Ukrainians need to be more realistic and understand the Russian point of view better if they to escape from the bear's clutches. So, as usual, your comments make no sense to me.

LeBrok
07-03-14, 01:57
Ukraine was not poor, it is in fact richer than ever before. If you look how Ukrainians lived 30, 60 or 90 years ago, the trend is obvious, the quality of living is better. There are two problems, though: Yes, of course we are talking about relative poverty. Here in context of european states GDP in general or per capita, which make Ukraine poor in comparison with others.


1. They are not rich enough as they wanna be. OK, they elected Yanaukovich, he didn't fulfill his promises about life standards, he'll get out of the president room first time possible. It's not like he signed an alliance with the Devil or he's trying to sell Ukrainian land as a nuclear waste dump, so that swift reaction should be taken. You can't go around raising chaos, burning city and terrorizing people, unless you have pretty good reason for it. Just not liking the current president is simply not an excuse. Next, also had parliamentary elections in 2012 for which we have results:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Ukr_elections_2012_onemandate_okruhs.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Ukr_elections_2012_multimandate_okruhs.png
So, what about the will of all the people that voted? It should be tossed down the sewer? Just because city of Kiev is in the purple zone, and majority of citizens are protesting against the party from which they lost the elections, that doesn't mean it's the majority in the whole country. Citizens of Kiev can't act like spoiled children, trying to inflict their ideas by force once they didn't do it the legal way in 2012.
I never said or I don't remember any person here who said that protesters were right abolishing government. I said people were angry and frustrated and demanded the change. Is it for good or worse, only future will tell.
Personally I believe that Ukraine will be much better with EU than Russia, if they can't be friends with both.


So, what about the will of all the people that voted? It should be tossed down the sewer? Just because city of Kiev is in the purple zone, and majority of citizens are protesting against the party from which they lost the elections, that doesn't mean it's the majority in the whole country. Citizens of Kiev can't act like spoiled children, trying to inflict their ideas by force once they didn't do it the legal way in 2012.
Let's leave it to Ukrainians. Yuu are not suggesting that we should send Russian troops every time Ukrainians or anyone else abolish their government?


2. People were demonstrating against various problems. If nazis didn't show up to spice up the things the chaos probably wouldn't broke up. Right at the moment when violence started I was excepting the Western countries to speak up against it. It didn't happen. They went on backing it up. Once nationalistic and nazi forces got aware that their actions are greeted from the West they got courage to act more freely, and started endangering people's freedom.
And when I wanted to compliment you on a nice analitical post you brought nazies again to the equation. You couldn't resist, could you?




As a result, we have Ukraine "at stop" for months, which means it's losing money. We have the direct damage that protesters have done, which will be estimated in months to come. We also have an extra money that state is paying to the police to try to keep law and order in Ukraine. If all that didn't happen, we'd have Ukraine with some amount of money and low standard voting for Klitschko at the end of the year. This way we could have Ukraine with (same amount of money - billions of $), even lower standard, ruined city, lots of dead and again Klitschko in power.... maybe ... if riots end by then, and if whole country doesn't fall apart. With every political unrest economy is being neglected. However how it is going to end who knows. I'm suspecting a very difficult politically and economically next 20 years for Ukraine. Afterall it is a very young country in making. It takes time.
If somehow pro EU government takes effect and deep economic reforms happen, their economy can double in 10 years. They have big market of 50 million well educated people. All they need is solid economic system to unleash their potential. Why not to repeat what Ireland did in last 30 years? It is as easy as to copy something. Nothing new needs to be invented.

Aberdeen
07-03-14, 03:55
Sure, if Russia didn't give Crimea to Ukraine we wouldn't have the Crimea problem now. But somehow they gave it away. Now, after some reflection, Russia takes it back. I would say it is not right.

There is also problem with Ukraine. Till 1991 it never existed as an independent country. So how do we assign any territory to a country which never existed? I guess, demographics of ethnicities are playing a role here. Overall it was by communist party decret of Soviet Union that gave Ukraine today's shape. If Soviet leaders could predict current situation in advance, they wouldn't have been as generous as they were creating Ukrainian Soviet Republic. Ukraine would be much smaller and definitely without Crimea.

That's all true, but I doubt that Russians think it's relevant. When they look at a map of the Ukraine, they see NATO tanks being able to carry out war maneuvers in the eastern part, right underneath the belly of central Russia. And they expect that to happen as soon as the Ukraine joins NATO because Russians are paranoid by nature and because many of them can tell your horrible but sometimes true stories about how their grandparents died in WWII. And Russia will prevent the possibility of NATO tanks gathering on the plains south of Russia by whatever means possible, either by taking back that territory or keeping the Ukraine as a Russian client state. So, what do the people of western Ukraine want? To join the west, which seems like the wise choice. But Russia won't let that happen as long as the Ukraine extends as far east as it does today. And Russia will never agree to be shut out of the Black Sea. So, how does the Ukraine escape? By letting the people of eastern Ukraine go, through a referendum or whatever - the majority of the people in eastern Ukraine speak Russian anyway, and if they're forced to choose between being governed by a nationalistic Ukrainian regime and rejoining Russia, they probably will choose Russia, whether or not other people think that choice makes sense. The Ukrainians should forget about how they think things should be and think about what's possible, or there's a danger that the Russian bear will devour all of the Ukraine. And what will the EU and NATO do about that? Realistically, they will wag their fingers and say "Naughty Russian bear - you shouldn't have killed and eaten the Ukraine. We will have economic sanctions against you. But please don't shut off the flow of natural gas. We might have another cold winter next year."

Ike
07-03-14, 04:57
I never said or I don't remember any person here who said that protesters were right abolishing government. I said people were angry and frustrated and demanded the change. Is it for good or worse, only future will tell. Personally I believe that Ukraine will be much better with EU than Russia, if they can't be friends with both.

I believe it's a false dilemma for them. They can't be better with anyone, if they have foes behind their back. They should not make enemies with either EU or Russia, and they should stay independent.



Let's leave it to Ukrainians. Yuu are not suggesting that we should send Russian troops every time Ukrainians or anyone else abolish their government?
No, I suggest we make it clear to them that we don't and we won't recognize the new forced government. Or at least that's what we should have done. Now it's too late.

If Canada wants to send their troops to reestablish overthrown government and make sure new elections are proper it's fine with me. I just think it's absurd to do it next to Russian who are already there on the borders, just as I would think it would be absurd to send Russian troops to Mexico, Somalia or Spain if riots happened there.



And when I wanted to compliment you on a nice analitical post you brought nazies again to the equation. You couldn't resist, could you?
Yeah, they killed a lot of people here. We recognize them from very far, and we know how they spread. It's interesting that EU governments and US also didn't see it as a problem in Yugoslav republics, when nationalistic governments were established under the pretense of democracy. Next thing we saw was total war. I'm wondering how serious does the threat have to be, so that they'd see it.


If somehow pro EU government takes effect and deep economic reforms happen, their economy can double in 10 years. They have big market of 50 million well educated people. All they need is solid economic system to unleash their potential. Why not to repeat what Ireland did in last 30 years? It is as easy as to copy something. Nothing new needs to be invented.

Well, if it was so easy lots of other countries would have fallowed that example, but sadly it's very hard to do. I don't see Ukraine fallowing that example within EU or Russia. They are way deep down in problems which won't be solved withing one generation from my point of view.

Ike
07-03-14, 05:04
That's all true, but I doubt that Russians think it's relevant. When they look at a map of the Ukraine, they see NATO tanks being able to carry out war maneuvers in the eastern part, right underneath the belly of central Russia. And they expect that to happen as soon as the Ukraine joins NATO because Russians are paranoid by nature and because many of them can tell your horrible but sometimes true stories about how their grandparents died in WWII. And Russia will prevent the possibility of NATO tanks gathering on the plains south of Russia by whatever means possible, either by taking back that territory or keeping the Ukraine as a Russian client state.

In the light of articles like these, I can't really say that I blame Russians for being paranoid:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/nato-s-eastward-expansion-did-the-west-break-its-promise-to-moscow-a-663315.html

NATO surely has to back off and give 'em some space. When Russians think like this, it wouldn't even surprise me if they take the whole Ukraine back again:
"Baranez, a retired colonel who was the Defense Ministry's spokesman under former Russian President Boris Yeltsin, asks why Russia should even consider joint maneuvers after being deceived by the West. NATO, he writes, "has pushed its way right up to our national borders with its guns.""

Coolboygcp
07-03-14, 06:45
That was a typo. I mean "Baltic", not "Balkans", which should have been obvious from the context of what I said.

What do you have your period or something? You are acting like an *******, first to Angela (in the French people thread), and now to me. Why are you so nasty to everyone?

You do not have to act like a douché in order to correct your typo. You could have just said "Oops, I meant to say The Baltics, not The Balkans.", instead of the snarky comment you said.

"which should have been obvious from the context of what I said"

This is like saying, "Algeria is a superpower", and then saying "I meant America, which should have been obvious from the context of what I said."

It is not my job to attempt to discern what you meant, it would have been much easier if you put the right place. They are two very distinct, very far from each other, totally different places.

If you meant the Baltics, Russia is not a Baltic nation. Russia is not usually considered a Baltic nation. Russia does have a very small amount of land on The Baltic Sea (Kaliningrad Oblast). But, it is quite rare and uncommon to describe this as being a Baltic nation, or being in The Baltics. That Oblast is completely surrounded by the EU all sides (except a small amount of sea belonging to Russia). I would not call it a flank, but it is more of a small exclave like Spain's Ceuta and Melilla; than a flank like America's Florida, or Egypt's Sinai Peninsula.

Why do you keep portraying Russia as a strong nation, a nation with immense power and might. Sure it has a bit of that, but not as much as you are portraying. Russia used to be a very strong nation when it was part of The Soviet Union, now it has lost the majority of it's strength, power, and might. Russia is only a shell of what The Soviet Union was.

Coolboygcp
07-03-14, 07:53
Crimea now it is autonomous and I think in the future should be independent.
And Romania,Ukraine,Turkey,Bulgaria,Crimea,Georgia should vote that no military ships of either NATO or Russia should be allowed in Black Sea.
If NATO and Russia want to fight,they can fight,but not in Black Sea.
I do not really care about "geo strategic" interests of US and other NATO large powers or Russia in Black Sea.UK,US,France,Russia,US have no rights to Black Sea.
They should get their military ships out of there and stop putting people to fight between them.
Is true that Russia have some part of Black Sea side,but Black Sea should be used only for tourism,fishing etc and not for fighting,which will lead to massive pollution in the area and would disturb the lives of most people here,which are living peacefully.
The high powers leaders are pure idiots with no respect for nature and life of ordinary people.
Bulgarians,Romanians,Ukrainians,Russians,Tatars,Go ths,Turks,Greeks and other nations were living here very peacefully.Suddenly,Ukrainians started to fight.
Why?
Russia on one side and US and EU agitators on the other side having interests in the region,enraged these people between them,they made bloodshed between brothers,carrying only about their "geo strategic interests" . Both US/NATO and Russia want Crimea under their dark wings.Why?
To deploy military ships in the region (For US/NATO)/keep their existing war ships in the region (Russia).
Idiots.
I am pretty sure average citizen of Russia that lives near Black Sea side do not want either Russia war ships deployed in the region.

I agree with some of this, and disagree with some of this. However, at this time, NATO does have an interest in The Black Sea. There are many Black Sea countries that are members of NATO. These include:

Bulgaria
Romania
Turkey

It is likely that Georgia will join in the future, and possibly Ukraine as well.

Thus, NATO does technically have an interest in The Black Sea. Since 3 of it's members are on The Black Sea, it is logical for NATO to have bases, facilities, different boats, submarines, and more on and in The Black Sea. Below is a list of American military bases in Black Sea countries:

Turkey~

Incirlik Air Base- United States Air Force


Bulgaria~

Aitos Logistics Center- United States Army
Novo Selo Range- United States Army

Bezmer Air Base- United States Air Force
Graf Ignatievo Air Base- United States Air Force


The bases listed are in NATO and Black Sea countries. Since Bulgaria, Turkey, and Romania are both NATO and Black Sea Nations (and Bulgaria and Romania are EU member as well), NATO has an interest in The Black Sea. This would not only include the three Black Sea NATO nations, but every NATO member including the UK, the US, and France (nations you said had no business in The Black Sea). So, the UK, the US, and France has interests in The Black Sea. I agree with you that The Black Sea should be a peaceful place, and should not have any war. However, war has come to The Black Sea, and peace has been taken away in The Black Sea region.

The EU also has an interest in The Black Sea. Many EU nations are on The Black Sea, or near it. A large art of The Black Sea is The EU's territory.

I also disagree with what you said about the Russian people's point of view regarding this situation. As recent polls have shown, most Russians support Putin, support the invasion and retaking of Crimea, and also support a return to "Great Empire/Soviet Union".

It has been pretty peaceful in The Black Sea region for many years. However, it is not the Ukrainians that started this crisis but the Russians. They pressured Yanukovych into not signing the EU Association Agreement, and instead joining Russia's Customs Union and The Eurasian Union. The Ukrainian people did not agree with this decision at all, and rightly, they protested and eventually overthrew Yanukovych. The Ukrainian people wanted freedom, and now they have it. However, many of The Crimeans and Ukrainians from the south and east of Ukraine did not want this, and they want to join with Russia. (Idiotically).

However, I do agree with you that, The Black Sea should only be used for tourism, fishing, boating, etc. And that there shouldn't be any military bases there. I hope that one day, this is attained.

Coolboygcp
07-03-14, 08:05
Two Russia Today anchors have resigned on air, denouncing it's biased positions, Putin, and Russia itself. Below is an article from The Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/06/russia-today-anchor-liz-wahl-resigns-on-air-ukraine


An American anchor for the Kremlin-funded news channel RT has quit on air and accused the network of "whitewashing" Moscow's military intervention in Crimea.

Liz Wahl, a Washington-based correspondent for RT-America, part of the network formerly known as Russia Today, told viewers on Wednesday she was resigning because of its coverage of President Vladimir Putin's actions in the Ukrainian region.

Veerng off script, Wahl said: "I cannot be part of a network funded by the Russian government that whitewashes the actions of Putin. I'm proud to be an American and believe in disseminating the truth, and that is why, after this newscast, I'm resigning."

As the daughter of a military veteran and the wife of a military base physician the network's coverage of a potentially explosive crisis presented ethical and moral dilemmas, she said.

Wahl cited another RT host, Abby Martin, who made headlines on Tuesday when she declared: "Russian intervention in the Crimea is wrong." In a tweet she later called Martin "my girl" and commended her for going "spectacularly off-message".

Wahl, a self-described "Filipina-Hungarian-American", also alluded to Moscow's bloody intervention in Hungary in 1956. "Just spoke to grandparents who came to US as refugees escaping Soviets during Hungarian revolution. Amazing to hear amid new Cold War fears," she tweeted.

RT, a predominantly English-language network aimed at a global audience, broadcasts news, documentaries and talk shows with a distinctly pro-Russian slant. RT-America provides several hours of US-produced content a day, including a show hosted by former CNN star Larry King.

Unlike other international broadcasters who have reported the presence of Russian troops in Crimea the station has echoed the Kremlin line about the troops being local self-defence forces.

In a statement, RT denounced Wahl's actions as a "self-promotional" stunt. It drew a distinciton between her role as a newscaster and Martin's position as an opinion host.

"When a journalist disagrees with the editorial position of his or her organization, the usual course of action is to address those grievances with the editor, and, if they cannot be resolved, to quit like a professional. But when someone makes a big public show of a personal decision, it is nothing more than a self-promotional stunt," it said.

"It actually makes me feel sick that I worked there," Wahl told the Daily Beast.

She had planned the move for some time, she said. "When I came on board from the beginning I knew what I was getting into, but I think I was more cautious and tried to stay as objective as I could."

Coolboygcp
07-03-14, 08:54
Apparently, Americans have no sense of irony or self-awareness.

American Secretary of State John Kerry, in talking about events in Crimea, said:

"It is not appropriate to invade a country, and at the end of a barrel of a gun dictate what you are trying to achieve. That is not 21st-century, G-8, major nation behaviour."

:43:

I am shocked that you have said this. First you promote dated stereotypes about The French. And now you are saying something that is highly oppensive, stereotypical, discriminatory, and slanderous about over 300,000,000 people. If I only read the things that you write, I could say that Canadians are all uninformed douchébag assholes that are uninformed, that commonly employ racial and ethnic stereotypes, frequently exaggerate, and do not consider facts.

However I know that the vast, vast majority of Canadians are not like you. I have never met, talked to, seen, or heard of a Canadian like yourself. I have many friends who are Canadians, relatives who are Canadians, and I have been to Canada, which I think is a very nice country. All of the Canadians I know and have met are very nice, and kind people. I am an European American (emphasis on the European) who has a sense of irony and self-awareness. I am sure that there are people of every nationality and ethnicity who do not have a sense of irony and/or self-awareness. Most Americans do have a sense of irony and self-awareness, though there are some that I am sure that do not have those traits; I am sure that there are some Canadians who have this problem as well.

Look at all of the great comedians from the US. The vast majority of them employ irony. Larry David, Jerry Seinfeld, Bill Maher, George Lopez, John Leguizamo, and many more employ irony and self-awareness.

I am not disagreeing with you that Secretary Kerry's statement may be somewhat hypocritical, however, it is another thing entirely to say that an entire group of 300,000,000 people do not have a sense of irony or self-awareness. Also, all Americans are not responsible for the actions of the American government. If I was, I would close all of the foreign, and the vast majority of the domestic military bases, allow freedom of movement, join The EU, convert to The Metric System, and create a socialised Universal Healthcare system.

From the tone of many of your posts, it seems that you are sometimes uninformed, and frequently employ racial and ethnic stereotypes. It is degrading and offensive to the people who these stereotypes concern, and your actions may influence people's views and thoughts of both Canada and Canadians in general.

Coolboygcp
07-03-14, 09:15
How good that your opinion of me or my peoples future has no weight "Coolboy". I said, "Evil EU, Evil West"? Hell I didn't even used the designation "Evil" in connection to Turkey in that post. :laughing:

So you are hallucinating once again. I was merely pointing out the geopolitical facts. Not my problem if you have no clue of History or Geopolitics.

I think Goga knows best if he was attacked or not. He doesn't need a rabble-rouser to think for him.
My opinion does have weight, because my opinion is based upon facts.

I never said that you said "Evil EU, Evil West", but you completely implied it. You didn't call Turkey evil in that post, however you have implied that as well, and you have gone into crazy conspiracy theories regarding Turkey, The EU, and The West.

I have never hallucinated in my life. Usually the cause of that is drugs, and I would probably respect you more if you were taking drugs that made you say the unfactual, insane, off the wall comments you have said. For example, the whole Gülen thing; how could one man do all of these things? The answer is, he can't! He is a scapegoat, a man whom the Turkish public and government say orchestrates every scandal, does every bad thing in Turkey, and whose fault it is for everything from Gezi Square, to the wiretaps, to the widespread corruption in Turkey, to the Kurds, and more.

And the comment "Turkey will never get in The EU." Well, it doesn't seem that The EU or Turkey thinks so; they are still in negotiation for Turkish EU membership, and Turkey has been changing their regulations, laws, and more in order to be compatible with European standard and regulations. Sure, the negotiations may be moving at a slow pace, but I believe that in time; Turkey will join Europe.

In addition, I am not a rabble-rouser, but I know when someone is being attacked, and Goga was being attacked; as you have done to practically everyone on this forum.

Ike
07-03-14, 11:36
Why do you keep portraying Russia as a strong nation, a nation with immense power and might. Sure it has a bit of that, but not as much as you are portraying. Russia used to be a very strong nation when it was part of The Soviet Union, now it has lost the majority of it's strength, power, and might. Russia is only a shell of what The Soviet Union was.

That is what Americans think. That is why they are advancing towards Russia. And that is why we're all in problem.

ElHorsto
07-03-14, 12:00
That is why they are advancing towards Russia. And that is why we're all in problem.

In particular the Russians have a differing opinion about the 2+4 treaty (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%2B4_Treaty#Implementation_and_claimed_violations _of_the_treaty). I don't know who is right but I think this is the reason for this conflict and I wonder why no politician adresses it in the negotiations and media.

mihaitzateo
07-03-14, 12:52
I agree with some of this, and disagree with some of this. However, at this time, NATO does have an interest in The Black Sea. There are many Black Sea countries that are members of NATO. These include:

Bulgaria
Romania
Turkey

It is likely that Georgia will join in the future, and possibly Ukraine as well.

Thus, NATO does technically have an interest in The Black Sea. Since 3 of it's members are on The Black Sea, it is logical for NATO to have bases, facilities, different boats, submarines, and more on and in The Black Sea. Below is a list of American military bases in Black Sea countries:

Turkey~

Incirlik Air Base- United States Air Force


Bulgaria~

Aitos Logistics Center- United States Army
Novo Selo Range- United States Army

Bezmer Air Base- United States Air Force
Graf Ignatievo Air Base- United States Air Force


The bases listed are in NATO and Black Sea countries. Since Bulgaria, Turkey, and Romania are both NATO and Black Sea Nations (and Bulgaria and Romania are EU member as well), NATO has an interest in The Black Sea. This would not only include the three Black Sea NATO nations, but every NATO member including the UK, the US, and France (nations you said had no business in The Black Sea). So, the UK, the US, and France has interests in The Black Sea. I agree with you that The Black Sea should be a peaceful place, and should not have any war. However, war has come to The Black Sea, and peace has been taken away in The Black Sea region.

The EU also has an interest in The Black Sea. Many EU nations are on The Black Sea, or near it. A large art of The Black Sea is The EU's territory.

I also disagree with what you said about the Russian people's point of view regarding this situation. As recent polls have shown, most Russians support Putin, support the invasion and retaking of Crimea, and also support a return to "Great Empire/Soviet Union".

It has been pretty peaceful in The Black Sea region for many years. However, it is not the Ukrainians that started this crisis but the Russians. They pressured Yanukovych into not signing the EU Association Agreement, and instead joining Russia's Customs Union and The Eurasian Union. The Ukrainian people did not agree with this decision at all, and rightly, they protested and eventually overthrew Yanukovych. The Ukrainian people wanted freedom, and now they have it. However, many of The Crimeans and Ukrainians from the south and east of Ukraine did not want this, and they want to join with Russia. (Idiotically).

However, I do agree with you that, The Black Sea should only be used for tourism, fishing, boating, etc. And that there shouldn't be any military bases there. I hope that one day, this is attained.
I do not think average Romanian,Bulgarian or Turk likes to see US army having soldiers in Black Sea.
NATO is not only US,I would like to see soldiers only from EU states,Georgia and Turkey,here.
NATO is supposed to preserve world peace,but Nuland and others mixed in Ukraine events and their actions determined after some soldiers from Russia entering in Crimea.
Which is not something useful for world peace.Because they supported a ultra-nationalist government which declared as only official language of Ukraine,Ukrainian.
In Romania,for example,we have about 10% or so Hungarians,in areas where Hungarians are lots,Hungarian language is also official language,not only Romanian.
A very decent legislation.
Why Ukraine is allowed to have a legislation that ignore the rights of minorities ?
Besides Russians,which actually understand Ukrainian,there are Romanians/Moldovans,Hungarians,Tatars and Bulgarians,in large numbers in Ukraine.

What if some people from Russia and US are making big money from army industry,what if these people have a lot of influence on the leaders of US and Russia and these people actually wanted to make money,from this crisis?
I think mr Ron Paul is suggesting something like this,that the industry that produce military equipments from US is very involved in this.
I also found weird the implication of the members from Wall Street Journal,in these events,they asked mr Obama to send troops in Black Sea,if I am remembering this right.

Aberdeen
07-03-14, 15:44
:43:

I am shocked that you have said this. First you promote dated stereotypes about The French. And now you are saying something that is highly oppensive, stereotypical, discriminatory, and slanderous about over 300,000,000 people. If I only read the things that you write, I could say that Canadians are all uninformed douchébag assholes that are uninformed, that commonly employ racial and ethnic stereotypes, frequently exaggerate, and do not consider facts.

However I know that the vast, vast majority of Canadians are not like you. I have never met, talked to, seen, or heard of a Canadian like yourself. I have many friends who are Canadians, relatives who are Canadians, and I have been to Canada, which I think is a very nice country. All of the Canadians I know and have met are very nice, and kind people. I am an European American (emphasis on the European) who has a sense of irony and self-awareness. I am sure that there are people of every nationality and ethnicity who do not have a sense of irony and/or self-awareness. Most Americans do have a sense of irony and self-awareness, though there are some that I am sure that do not have those traits; I am sure that there are some Canadians who have this problem as well.

Look at all of the great comedians from the US. The vast majority of them employ irony. Larry David, Jerry Seinfeld, Bill Maher, George Lopez, John Leguizamo, and many more employ irony and self-awareness.

I am not disagreeing with you that Secretary Kerry's statement may be somewhat hypocritical, however, it is another thing entirely to say that an entire group of 300,000,000 people do not have a sense of irony or self-awareness. Also, all Americans are not responsible for the actions of the American government. If I was, I would close all of the foreign, and the vast majority of the domestic military bases, allow freedom of movement, join The EU, convert to The Metric System, and create a socialised Universal Healthcare system.

From the tone of many of your posts, it seems that you are sometimes uninformed, and frequently employ racial and ethnic stereotypes. It is degrading and offensive to the people who these stereotypes concern, and your actions may influence people's views and thoughts of both Canada and Canadians in general.

If you don't like my posts, don't reply to them. But here's a clue - if a country has imperialist ambitions and over one million troops under arms, it's a danger to its neighbours, even if some of those troops are poorly trained conscripts.

Ike
07-03-14, 18:09
In particular the Russians have a differing opinion about the 2+4 treaty (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%2B4_Treaty#Implementation_and_claimed_violations _of_the_treaty). I don't know who is right but I think this is the reason for this conflict and I wonder why no politician adresses it in the negotiations and media.

Well, if Gorbachev's translators were not skilled, Americans could have pushed an article that would give them control over Siberia after 2001. That doesn't mean that Russians would let them do it.

Almost every article of every agreement can be put to a test, if there is no 300 pages following it. Even if there was a strict sentence that "NATO will not expand to the East towards USSR", Americans can say that they are not violating the agreement because USSR does not exist anymore. Next they could send their ships over Pacific and sail in from the West through Suez Canal saying they are not violating the agreement again. It's like saying to your kid "You can't go out and play" and next thing you find out he's with his friend at his house playing. Even though he is not actually "out" does that mean that he didn't disobeyed your will.


So, it's not the point in the agreement, but in common sense. We are all aware that USSR would NEVER sign an agreement if it thought it will let NATO military bases inside USSR territory. US is acting like it doesn't care for that and it's enclosing Russians from all sides. I don't know what they expected, but they've pushed too far with their war play, and now the first time they've got an adequate response - Russians moving their ground troops, and threatening to get involved, Americans are acting like "OMG, what is happening? OMG, why would you do something like that? OMG, but our troops bring democracy, and your troops are evil. Don't move them."

I really don't get for how long is US going to continue to playing dumb.

LeBrok
07-03-14, 19:13
Yesterday I heard Governor of Crimea declaring that Crimea is Russian. Way ahead of referendum which his government approved.
Signs of fresh democracy. The idea still needs to sink into human minds in this region. So far everybody's is acting at will, I'm the leader, I'm stronger or we are stronger, I do what I want, we do what we want.

mihaitzateo
07-03-14, 19:19
Yesterday I heard Governor of Crimea declaring that Crimea is Russian. Way ahead of referendum which his government approved.
Signs of fresh democracy. The idea still needs to sink into human minds in this region. So far everybody's is acting at will, I'm the leader, I'm stronger or we are stronger, I do what I want, we do what we want.

Well if Ukraine new government would not have canceled that law with minority languages,Russia would have not courage to send soldiers in Crimea,I think.
If Nuland would not have involved in Ukraine,so that her phone call was leaked,Russia again would have not another reason to get soldiers in Crimea.
Remember the time when Timoschenko was in lead in Ukraine,that time Ukraine was also wanted to get in EU and get in NATO,but Russia did not had any reasons to use to be able to send soldiers to Crimea.
Is clear that Russia wants Crimea and one of the reasons is to keep a part of its fleet there so they threaten Romania ,Turkey,Georgia,Bulgaria which are NATO members.
Some people from Russia and US did not got past the Cold War mentality.

Anton, Bear's den
07-03-14, 20:19
Yesterday I heard Governor of Crimea declaring that Crimea is Russian. Way ahead of referendum which his government approved.
Signs of fresh democracy. The idea still needs to sink into human minds in this region. So far everybody's is acting at will, I'm the leader, I'm stronger or we are stronger, I do what I want, we do what we want.

Cry LeBrok cry... http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif 75% of Crimean people want to become part of Russia, it's a fact. They do not want your decadent values, ​​nor the retarded nazis from "Polish frankenstein" Galicia and Volyn areas of western Ukraine.
There are huge unrest in Eastern Ukraine too, normal hard working people choose Russia.

People already rising Russia's flags in Kharkiv, Odessa, Donetsk, Lugansk. Finally the whole Eastern Ukraine rebelling against western marionettes in Kiev http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEIJ4pB6OSQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIfDAhS55EQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OG09rmnIkvU

LeBrok
07-03-14, 22:15
Cry LeBrok cry... http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif 75% of Crimean people want to become part of Russia, it's a fact. They do not want your decadent values, ​​nor the retarded nazis from "Polish frankenstein" Galicia and Volyn areas of western Ukraine.
There are huge unrest in Eastern Ukraine too, normal hard working people choose Russia.


Keep alienating and ridiculing your neighbors. You'll be surrounded by only enemies soon. Enemies which you made yourself.
Thanks to people like you, Russia is dying slowly every day. You'll see riots (not only Pussy Riots) and Russian tanks in Moscow streets in few years. Mark my words.
The saddest thing will be that you and others will still think Putin is your salvation and all bad came from western agitators.

LeBrok
07-03-14, 22:17
How Russians are going to kick Ukrainian troops from Crimean bases?

LeBrok
07-03-14, 22:54
Just to make sure Russia wins the referendum in Crimea, the voting will be rigged.

Here is why:
There is 58% ethnic Russians, 24% Ukrainian, 12% Tatars in Crimea. Even though Russians have majority it is not by a huge margin. I'm assuming that to make it easier for Russians to win, the threshold for secession to Russia will be set at 51%, not at 2/3rds or something else. Also I'm assuming that all Tatars and Ukrainians will vote for Ukraine or Independence if there is such option. Most likely it will be only one option "should we join Russia", and all Russians will vote for Russia. Now, this 7% of comfort margin is not much comfort for Putin. It is too much risk taking not knowing how people will vote. There was no time to do extensive survey to make sure, and why bother if Putin's troops are already there.
Here is why it is risky to let people decide:
- What if 20% Russian Crimean feel as good citizens of Ukraine and vote against secession? Most were born and educated as its citizens. There are some patriotic feelings involved.
- What if Russians will be overconfident and not all go to vote, but all minorities come to vote?
I don't think Putin will risk and take a chance of a legal vote. He has to rig it to make sure Crimea is Russian. He has extensive expertise of Soviet Union voting farce, where always 99% population voted and 99% voted for communist party.

Things are already set in stone. Governor of Crimea (Russian ethnic) already said yesterday that Crimea is Russian. Means that Russian politicians are already informed about Putin's decision. The referendum is for the rest of the world, as an act of illusion.

LeBrok
08-03-14, 05:49
if a country has imperialist ambitions and over one million troops under arms, it's a danger to its neighbours, even if some of those troops are poorly trained conscripts.
One thing to consider would be that without US Canada would have been either part of Japan Empire or part of Soviet Union. It is safe to say that without them we wouldn't be able to cherish our freedoms.

Coolboygcp
08-03-14, 10:07
I've found a shocking poster from a coalition in the 2002 Ukraine elections, and the coalition included The Party of Regions, Yanukovych's political party. I don't know what the hell happened to their political ideology, but they have completely changed in 12 years. Here it is below:

6286

FBS
08-03-14, 13:07
Keep alienating and ridiculing your neighbors. You'll be surrounded by only enemies soon. Enemies which you made yourself.
Thanks to people like you, Russia is dying slowly every day. You'll see riots (not only Pussy Riots) and Russian tanks in Moscow streets in few years. Mark my words.
The saddest thing will be that you and others will still think Putin is your salvation and all bad came from western agitators.
Just like Milosevic did against his people, Belgrade witnessed tanks in its streets when they suddenly realized that Milosevic would not stop anywhere when his authority and thirst for power was questioned by anyone. It happened exactly 22 years ago
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/society.php?yyyy=2013&mm=03&dd=09&nav_id=85082
Tyrants do not love anyone else not even their own people that brought them to power, there are a lot of examples throughout history.

matbir
08-03-14, 15:05
Here is video with good summary of what is going on Crimea and Ukraine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2nklduvThs

Aberdeen
08-03-14, 16:27
One thing to consider would be that without US Canada would have been either part of Japan Empire or part of Soviet Union. It is safe to say that without them we wouldn't be able to cherish our freedoms.

Wrong. We once had to fight off the damned Americans in order to keep our freedoms. Have you ever heard of the War of 1812?

matbir
08-03-14, 18:13
Ukraine is in crisis and no one is willing to implement the Budapest Memorandum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances):
"
The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Final_Act_of_the_Conference_on_Security_and_Cooper ation_in_Europe), to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.


The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Charter_of_the_United_Nations).


The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.


The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used.


The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm, in the case of the Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a state in association or alliance with a nuclear weapon state.


The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will consult in the event a situation arises which raises a question concerning these commitments."


It looks like GB, USA and RF do not care about the treaty they singled in 1994.

LeBrok
08-03-14, 18:15
Wrong. We once had to fight off the damned Americans in order to keep our freedoms. Have you ever heard of the War of 1812?

The weekend war? It was 200 years ago with US versus British. Well, one could say that it was war between British themselves. The independent British and British British, and nobody really conquered anyone. There was also "Canadian" invasion of Quebec, our neighbor back then, followed by long occupation. And really it was British occupation of French territory.
It wasn't up to almost 20 century when Canada developed own character and proper country construct. We still should work on full independence from British. It is a shame it is not finalized. How proud Canadian can say "God save the queen", the British queen?

And you don't want to say Canada could resist Soviet Union or Japan without US?

Aberdeen
08-03-14, 18:44
The weekend war? It was 200 years ago with US versus British. Well, one could say that it was war between British themselves. The independent British and British British, and nobody really conquered anyone. There was also "Canadian" invasion of Quebec, our neighbor back then, followed by long occupation. And really it was British occupation of French territory.
It wasn't up to almost 20 century when Canada developed own character and proper country construct. We still should work on full independence from British. It is a shame it is not finalized. How proud Canadian can say "God save the queen", the British queen?

And you don't want to say Canada could resist Soviet Union or Japan without US?

Actually, the War of 1812 to 1814 was a two year war that happened while Britain was preoccupied with fighting Napoleon, so most of the heavy lifting was done by provincial militias and Native warriors. It was that war that first created a sense of Canada as a nation among the colonies of what was then British North America. And Canada made a huge contribution in both world wars in the 20th century, as well as providing a refuge for displaced persons, including Poles, after WWII.

I don't think any country is necessarily safe without alliances, but I do think that countries that create empires, such as the U.S., Russia and formerly Britain, create a lot of problems for themselves and others. For example, it's arguable that this modern wave of islamist extremism was largely created by Britain and the U.S. through their adventures in Arabia and Iran. However, what the Russians are doing in Crimea probably won't create too many long term problems for them, since they're doing it in their own back yard and a slim majority of the Crimean population is actually Russian speaking. However, it must really suck to be a Tatar or Ukrainian in Crimea right now. If I was living in Crimea and wasn't a Russian speaker, I'd seriously consider moving.

oriental
08-03-14, 21:57
A lot of Poles got into Canada during the time of the Polish Solidarity Movement, Lech Walenza and Polish Pope. Gobarchev was the Head of Soviet Union then.

The Charge of the Light Brigade was in Crimea and there was a film with Errol Flynn and David Niven.

Anton, Bear's den
08-03-14, 22:14
Thanks to people like you, Russia is dying slowly every day.
Hahaha http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif dreams of seventy years russophobe! http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif last time I checked it was Canada who was actually dying together with her "west"

http://www.med.uottawa.ca/sim/data/Birth_Rates_e.htm (http://www.med.uottawa.ca/sim/data/Birth_Rates_e.htm)
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/canadas-birthrate-falls-for-3rd-year-in-a-row-to-161

while Russia is growing

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/2014/02/07/russia-just-recorded-its-first-natural-population-growth-since-the-collapse-of-the-soviet-union/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/2014/02/07/russia-just-recorded-its-first-natural-population-growth-since-the-collapse-of-the-soviet-union/)

Nothing surprising really, gay & lesbian cultures don't reproduce. No one yet cheated Mother Nature http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif


You'll see riots (not only Pussy Riots) and Russian tanks in Moscow streets in few years. Mark my words.

I rather will see how the elephant became utterly bankrupt. Clock is ticking, you know: "Tik-Tok...Tik Tok...Tik-Tok..."

http://www.usdebtclock.org/


The saddest thing will be that you and others will still think Putin is your salvation.

Who cares about Putin? Russian Federation is sovereign democracy and will elect other president when term of current president finished. But I predict that you will call him a "dictator" too, because he will defend the national interests of the Russian Federation. Nothing to be done, because you are used to dealing only with puppets. Any other really independent state you perceive as the enemy.


and all bad came from western agitators.

No, I don't like when you start to teach us and impose your values. Some of them sick which we don't want to copy here, but not everything. Bad that "west" demanding to copy absolutely everything.

I myself work in French company & my boss is French, do you really believe that I think "all bad came from western agitators"??? http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gifhttp://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gifhttp://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif

Ike
09-03-14, 02:38
Ukraine is in crisis and no one is willing to implement the Budapest Memorandum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances): ...

It looks like GB, USA and RF do not care about the treaty they singled in 1994.


They never do. If it was by the book, SFR Yugoslavia (http://izvidjaci14cete.free.fr/Sfrj-1.gif) still exists. Almost every single move done by all sides, foreign or internal, was not in accordance with international law and agreements.

LeBrok
09-03-14, 09:22
Hahaha http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif dreams of seventy years russophobe! "
I just don't like current Russian government and mind set. I"m not sure if you noticed that Russia is more than that. I have Russian friends in Canada and like many things and even some admire about Russia.
I guess if I don't like Putin and your mind set I must be a russophobe. If only the wrold would be so black and white.


while Russia is growing It is growing slower than China and India, not mentioning the rest. China's economy is already 3 times bigger than Russian. You need to join EU to counterbalance fast growing Asia. Otherwise they will eat you alive. Your salvation is only with EU. 17 billion economy compared to 2.5 billion Russian.



Nothing surprising really, gay & lesbian cultures don't reproduce. No one yet cheated Mother Nature http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gifSo you admit it is a genetic issue, not cultural?




I rather will see how the elephant became utterly bankrupt. Clock is ticking, you know: "Tik-Tok...Tik Tok...Tik-Tok..." Don't kid yourself, I predict tanks in Moscow happening first.



Who cares about Putin? Russian Federation is sovereign democracy and will elect other president when term of current president finished. Putin is personalization of most Russians mindset. If Russian mindset won't change there will be next Putin, or worse.



But I predict that you will call him a "dictator" too, because he will defend the national interests of the Russian Federation. Nothing to be done, because you are used to dealing only with puppets. Any other really independent state you perceive as the enemy.

We call him dictator because Russians want dictator to rule them. This is what they are used to from hundreds of years. Tzar, Secretary, Putin, vsio ravno (all same).



No, I don't like when you start to teach us and impose your values. Some of them sick which we don't want to copy here, but not everything. Bad that "west" demanding to copy absolutely everything.
Lead by example. When you show that your country is strong, rich, and people prosperous you will prove to the world and me that your ways are good, then I would pay attention to your values. If you struggle to survive and world don't care for you, and you behave like a bully to get an attention, and nobody wants to copy your economic and political system then we can honestly say that your values are wrong, or at least not as good as others. Show us your good and beneficial for all actions then we will follow you, otherwise you can tell your stories to the end of the world and nobody is going to believe you.




I myself work in French company & my boss is French, do you really believe that I think "all bad came from western agitators"??? http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gifhttp://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gifhttp://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif
Wow, you sold your soul! You are working for western agitators and their governments! I'm calling Putin tomorrow. :grin:

Coolboygcp
10-03-14, 05:24
If you don't like my posts, don't reply to them. But here's a clue - if a country has imperialist ambitions and over one million troops under arms, it's a danger to its neighbours, even if some of those troops are poorly trained conscripts.

When someone makes discriminatory and incorrect statements, as you do, I feel the obligation to reply.

I agree Russia has imperialistic ambitions. However Russia does not have "over one million troops under arms"; Russia has approximately 766,055 active soldiers as of 2013. That is not over one million, to my understanding of numbers and mathematics.

Reference for this fact:

http://russiandefpolicy.wordpress.com/2013/10/31/766055/

Yes, it's a danger to it's neighbours, you act as if it is as fearsome, as powerful, and as strong as NATO, The US, or Europe, which it isn't.

Also, why do you have this hatred toward Americans and the French? If it wasn't for the Americans, as LeBrok said, Canada would be Soviet or Japanese by now without the Americans and you would not have many freedoms. If it wasn't for America, Canada's economy would collapse; as most of Canada's exports go to The US, and most imports come from The US.

Why don't you like America, and Americans? We are in the same continent, we speak the same language (though different dialects, but I speak British English, personally. Except for the Francophones in Canada.), we are both part of NATO, we both are former parts of The British Empire, we have similar accents, etc. If you go abroad, people will not be able to tell if you are Canadian, and will probably think you are American; due to the similar accents, until you tell them you Canadian.

Did you date an American girl, and she dumped you? Did you loan an American money, and they never gave it back? Did you get in a fight with an American, and they won? What have Americans or America done t you personally? Why do you hold this hatred of it?

I do not agree with what my government does, I am not very patriotic, but I do not have control over what they do, and I consider myself more European than American. However, to condemn a whole nation, and a whole people, including myself; is not right.

America has done a lot for your country, and I really like Canada, and Canadians, but I do not know why you are like this? Are you even from Canada? Or are you just a *****?

Coolboygcp
10-03-14, 05:29
One thing to consider would be that without US Canada would have been either part of Japan Empire or part of Soviet Union. It is safe to say that without them we wouldn't be able to cherish our freedoms.

:good_job:

Thank you LeBrok, you're right.