View Full Version : Insular vs. Continental R1b-L21 question

03-03-14, 06:54
Is there a difference between the L21 found in France (Brittany and Normandy) and the L21 found in southeast England?
Could the L21 found in England be, originally, insular with some people of that line removing themselves, due to pressure by Anglo-Saxon invasion, to Brittany and then a back-migration with the Normans some 500 odd years later, or is the L21 a continental variety? Is there a distinction between insular and continental L21 lines?
Thanks- Cheers!

03-03-14, 18:43
I think there are too many L21 in France: 50-60% in Brittany, 40-50% in Normandy, about 15% in the north-east of France.
Brittons migrations can not be the cause ..

Two hypotheses, beginning ca -2000 BC:
- L21 came from central Europe, migrate to west to Britanny and the Channel coast, and then, to the United Kingdom
- L21, Central Europe, to North Germany (which was not yet "Germanic" at this time), and then to the United Kingdom and the Channel coast and then to Brittany and Normandy.

I do not think for the moment that the sub-clades of L21 can provide answers

09-03-14, 14:32
I think the Y-R1b-L21 (S145) formed in N-W Europe upon P312 and took a big part in the Atlantic Bronze diffusion: they passed into the Isles + Ireland at that time - surely they have been a strong enough % element among the coastal regions of north-western Europe and even in eastern (look at France Alps and romance Switzerland, even if samples were scarce enough) before being pushed in some way by their more continental P312 cousins of R1b-U152/S28 (first Celts or subsequent other Celts) and in North by the Germanics -
for I red the downstream SNPs of L21 are somehow different in the Isles and in Brittany, it could prove as say someones that the britton colonizations in western Aremorica did not make the most of today local L21... these differences arose after first installation in the Isles; the bigger part of the over Channel ressemblances traced to bronze and Iron ages and not to the Britton immigration in N-W France (the most in Brittany but also in Normandy and S-Picardy, about the 5°-6°-7° centuries)

10-03-14, 03:48
Thanks, guys, for the feedback. It's really fascinating to think about.
My immigrant ancestor to the American colonies came from the Sussex region in England. He did, however, have a surname of probable Norman origin, so I wonder if the L21 was insular or continental (Normandy or Brittany).
Thanks, again, for the insight!