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nurset
13-03-14, 09:55
I can specify two variants of Ukrainian rescue road maps.
First is close cooperation with Russia. Does Russia need Ukraine? Yes, it does.
Russia’s desire to anchor Ukraine is driven by ethnic, historic perceptions (Russians see Ukrainians as their prodigal brothers, Kiev as the mother of Russian cities and Crimea as the Russian peninsular), economic expansionism (need to expand the Eurasian Union) and, of course, strategic military calculations (need for permanent military allies and/or buffer states).
There are, of course, tangible benefits that Russia could derive from Ukrainian participation in the Eurasian Union.
Ukraine represents a large and attractive market for the Russian economy. Russia would have to bear the burden of subsidizing Ukraine’s energy inefficient economy through steep gas discounts and other perks in order to draw and keep Ukraine in the union. Judging by the fact that Russia had to agree to buy $15 billion worth of Ukrainian bonds just to prevent its western neighbor from entering a free-trade agreement with EU, Ukraine’s participation in the Eurasian Union could put a serious strain on Russia’s budget, especially given the current stagnation of Russia’s own economy.
Second is the EU. Ukraine could adopt the Association Agreement with the EU, well short of membership.
Western countries might also think twice about whether they need a Ukraine firmly anchored to Brussels and/or Washington, given how divided the country is as well as the financial burden of subsidizing a nation of forty-five million which has learned to live in the post-Cold War by playing Western countries and Russia off each other to win concessions from both.
Today Merkel flirts with Ukraine but doesn't give any commitment to the country. With Greece she is tougher...
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Coolboygcp
13-03-14, 10:01
We already have a thread that deals with this:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29635-Should-Crimea-be-an-independent-country/page11

Coolboygcp
13-03-14, 10:13
Ok, but I have to post on this thread.

I disagree with you. Russia and Ukraine are not going to be "friends" or "allies". Maybe with Victor Yanukovych, but not now. The people of Ukraine want to be part of Europe, they do not want to be part of Russia's new Soviet Union (Eurasian Union).

Haven't you watched or read the news on this whole crisis? The majority of the people in Ukraine want to sign the AA with the EU, and they want to be part of it eventually. The EU is open to Ukrainian membership, as evidenced by the excerpt from Wikipedia below:


During a summit in November 2013, Ukraine refused to sign their Association Agreement with the EU, due to Russian pressure.[194] This sparked massive pro-EU protests, with thousands of people chanting "Ukraine is Europe". EU Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso later said "We are embarked on a long journey, helping Ukraine to become, as others, what we call now, 'new member states'. But we have to set aside short-term political calculations." [195] On 27 February 2014 the European Parliament passed a resolution that recognized Ukraine's right to "apply to become a Member of the Union, provided that it adheres to the principles of democracy, respects fundamental freedoms and human and minority rights, and ensures the rule of law".[196][197]

It seems that the European Parliament and Jose Manuel Barosso disagree with you. Also, where did Merkel not give Ukraine any commitments? Do you have any references for that?

Also, why do you want Ukraine to become part of Russia's sphere on influence? I would like Ukraine to apply become a member of the EU, after it signs the Association Agreement, and after the new elections are held; perhaps they could apply later in the year.

It appears that the EU truly does want Ukraine to join eventually, if they did not, the European Parliament wouldn't have passed that resolution.

nurset
13-03-14, 10:18
We already have a thread that deals with this:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29635-Should-Crimea-be-an-independent-country/page11

The fate of the Crimea will be known after referendum on march, 16. But my topic is related to the fate of Ukraine, Kiev, right wing parties and pro-nasi leaders. Don't you think we'll get new hot spot near Germany?

nurset
13-03-14, 10:33
Ok, but I have to post on this thread.

I disagree with you. Russia and Ukraine are not going to be "friends" or "allies". Maybe with Victor Yanukovych, but not now. The people of Ukraine want to be part of Europe, they do not want to be part of Russia's new Soviet Union (Eurasian Union).

Haven't you watched or read the news on this whole crisis? The majority of the people in Ukraine want to sign the AA with the EU, and they want to be part of it eventually. The EU is open to Ukrainian membership, as evidenced by the excerpt from Wikipedia below:



It seems that the European Parliament and Jose Manuel Barosso disagree with you. Also, where did Merkel not give Ukraine any commitments? Do you have any references for that?

Also, why do you want Ukraine to become part of Russia's sphere on influence? I would like Ukraine to apply become a member of the EU, after it signs the Association Agreement, and after the new elections are held; perhaps they could apply later in the year.

It appears that the EU truly does want Ukraine to join eventually, if they did not, the European Parliament wouldn't have passed that resolution.

That's great! But imagine, Yarosh - neofascist, is elected as the president. He gained support of all youth and people who have nothing to lose, others were intimidated. He is wanted by Russian police being a terrorist, but the EU accepts Ukraine as its member. And now he needs to reform political, economic and financial system to the European standards. Surely, EU should provide bridge financing. It will become an economic sinkhole.
As to me I don't want to pay fascists. Who will give that money? Again Germany?

Coolboygcp
13-03-14, 10:39
The fate of the Crimea will be known after referendum on march, 16. But my topic is related to the fate of Ukraine, Kiev, right wing parties and pro-nasi leaders. Don't you think we'll get new hot spot near Germany?

No, that is not true. The referendum is illegitimate, no reputable nation or organisation will recognise it. The Russians wouldn't even let unarmed OSCE observers into Crimea to observe the referendum, they shot at the OSCE observers!

Right wing parties? Pro-nazi leaders? What news do you read, Russia Today or The Voice of Russia? :laughing:

The only right-wing party that I know of in Ukraine is The Party of Regions, Yanukovych's party. What pro-Nazi leaders are there? Are there any reputable websites that say this? Any reputable newssources that say this? No, because it is not true, it is a lie fabricated by Russia.

Are you from Germany? If you are, I am shocked, as I have never met or heard of Germans who have been brainwashed by Russian propaganda (except when they had East Germany, but that was different.)

Coolboygcp
13-03-14, 10:54
That's great! But imagine, Yarosh - neofascist, is elected as the president. He gained support of all youth and people who have nothing to lose, others were intimidated. He is wanted by Russian police being a terrorist, but the EU accepts Ukraine as its member. And now he needs to reform political, economic and financial system to the European standards. Surely, EU should provide bridge financing. It will become an economic sinkhole.
As to me I don't want to pay fascists. Who will give that money? Again Germany?
Oh Yarosh? He is not mainstream, he is in the fringe of society. Here is a quote from Wikipedia:


Right Sector has been described as the most organized and most effective of the Maidan forces. Following the collapse of the Yanukovych government in February 2014, with police having largely abandoned the streets of Kiev, groups of young men, including the members of Right Sector, patrol the streets armed mostly with baseball bats.[23][24]
On February 26, 2014, Right Sector leaders visited the Israeli embassy in Ukraine, telling Israeli ambassador Reuven Din-El that the group rejects anti-semitism, chauvinism, and xenophobia.[25] Right Sector participated in a funeral procession for a Jewish activist killed by authorities during the revolution.[26]
In the aftermath of the collapse of the Yanukovych government, Yarosh and Victoria Siumar were proposed as possible deputies to the Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council,[27] however, only Siumar, who is not affiliated with the Right Sector, was appointed.[28] After that, Yarosh tried to negotiate for himself a position of the deputy head of the State Security Service[29] but has not been able to get himself appointed.[30]
[B]In a poll conducted by the "Socis" research center from February 25 to March 4, 2014, Yarosh's possible candidacy in the upcoming presidential elections (planned for May 25, 2014) received the support of 1.6% of the people who were surveyed.[31]
On 11 March 2014 Russian State Duma deputy Valery Rashkin (ru) urged Russian special services to "follow Mossad examples" and assassinate leaders of Right sector Dmytro Yarosh and Oleksandr Muzychko.[32]


So, we have established that Yarosh will probably never be elected. So, there goes your whole theory. Also, if he was elected (which he never will be), he would not allow Ukriane to join the EU, as he thinks it is a capitalistic totalitarian government.

He is only wanted by the Russians as being a terrorist, because of a social media message the Russians fabricated, on a social media website owned by a close friend of Putin.

It will not become an economic sinkhole. Ukraine has a lot of natural gas, and a lot of coal. When it joins the EU, these resources would be Europe's resources. Thus this would subsidise the costs of EU funding to Ukraine. When the Ukrainian economy grows (because of EU membership), it's membership fees will also grow, and it will have to pay back the loans given to it by the EU.

I would much rather pay for a country to be free, and to be European, than to pay for a politician's golden toilet seat, or Italian summer home. :laughing:

nurset
13-03-14, 11:04
No, that is not true. The referendum is illegitimate, no reputable nation or organisation will recognise it. The Russians wouldn't even let unarmed OSCE observers into Crimea to observe the referendum, they shot at the OSCE observers!

Right wing parties? Pro-nazi leaders? What news do you read, Russia Today or The Voice of Russia? :laughing:

The only right-wing party that I know of in Ukraine is The Party of Regions, Yanukovych's party. What pro-Nazi leaders are there? Are there any reputable websites that say this? Any reputable newssources that say this? No, because it is not true, it is a lie fabricated by Russia.

Are you from Germany? If you are, I am shocked, as I have never met or heard of Germans who have been brainwashed by Russian propaganda (except when they had East Germany, but that was different.)

Ha,ha,ha... I just try to catch only facts and to be impartial. You know nothing about Ukraine, because you live on the other continent. It's not your business at all. Learn more about Right Sector. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector
Even UK news gives some information http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraines-neo-fascist-right-sector-leader-dmytro-yarosh-wanted-arrest-russia-1439958

Referendum in Crimea illegitimate? Then what about Kosovo? US double standards?

Christiaan
16-03-14, 17:53
Ha,ha,ha... I just try to catch only facts and to be impartial. You know nothing about Ukraine, because you live on the other continent. It's not your business at all. Learn more about Right Sector. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector
Even UK news gives some information http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraines-neo-fascist-right-sector-leader-dmytro-yarosh-wanted-arrest-russia-1439958

Referendum in Crimea illegitimate? Then what about Kosovo? US double standards?

So many weird things you stating here. Greece is not threatened to be invaded lets say by Turkey. Even if the west of the Ukraine is more EU orientated than on Russia unlike the East of Ukraine. It's about a souvereign country that should make up his mind on its own, what they want to do next, without the military force of a much bigger state.

Kosovo is different: 1. the Serb army did not protect the civil population of the Kosovo Albanians 2. the "motherstate" Albania did not intervene unlike Russia in the Krim. The Krim reminds more of the Anschluss of Sudetenland, when the German army marched into the Czech republic to be honest. That didn't turn out so well either.

And yes, there is a right sector in Ukraine, but I bet they are on both sides or what do you think of those S.A.-operating thugs that beat up pro-ukrainian protesters?

If you give Russia a finger they will take the whole arm, so stepping up against this bully namely Poetin is a good thing.

"Wasch mich, aber mach mich bitte nicht nass" is not an option here.

ElHorsto
19-03-14, 02:00
..........edited

Coolboygcp
19-03-14, 02:30
Ha,ha,ha... I just try to catch only facts and to be impartial. You know nothing about Ukraine, because you live on the other continent. It's not your business at all. Learn more about Right Sector. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector
Even UK news gives some information http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraines-neo-fascist-right-sector-leader-dmytro-yarosh-wanted-arrest-russia-1439958

Referendum in Crimea illegitimate? Then what about Kosovo? US double standards?

"Facts", as in Russian propaganda, correct? I know a lot about Ukraine. Oh, because I live in North America, I must be an idiot, who doesn't give a shit about the world and Europe, and who isn't informed? How discriminatory is that? I may be from America, but I deeply care about Europel and Europe is very important to me. I am Europeam by descent, and not quite distantly either. My grandparents (on my father's side) were from Greece and Ireland. Also, if I frequently post on a forum, about the European Union, then why would I do that if I knew nothing about Europe. I am deeply offended, and to be Frank, pissed off, that you would say something like that to me.

Once again, I ask, are you German by descent/ethnicity? Are are you a Russian living in Germany, as it seems like the latter. You are brainwashed by Russian propaganda, which is fictitious crap written by Putin's followers; in order to brainwash the Russian people into believing the shit he says.

I have read the Wikipedia article on Right Sector, and as I previously noted in my last post that you have not replied to yet; is a fringe, minority party. It will never lead Ukraine, not even become part of a ruling coalition!

The majority of the people of Ukraine was to be part of Europe again. They want to join the EU, and they want to be free. Why are you opposed to this, as a European? I am a European, and I am greatly for this. So what if you have to pay a few cents to support a country attaining freedom, liberty, and becoming European? It is quite worth it.