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oriental
23-04-14, 19:43
Life expectancy is an indication of wealth. India at the time I was there was very poor. It was a Dickensonian world. Children were mutilated to earn a living as beggars. Beggars were very common. Having seen so many poor beggars and grown up with them somehow inoculated me from being overly empathetic towards them. It is like a platform of the given just as kids these days have smartphones as a given never having a thought about their development. Technology was a given for kids these days as much as beggars were a given at that time for me.

Majority of Indians were poor. Rickshawallas earned only a dollar or two a day. Their only food was a bag of chuttoo (powdered chickpeas) for lunch. Chuttoo has a lot of energy and protein. They also had a family to support. With kind of poverty let me know if life expectancy can be high.

LeBrok
24-04-14, 02:00
Life expectancy is an indication of wealth. India at the time I was there was very poor. It was a Dickensonian world. Children were mutilated to earn a living as beggars. Beggars were very common. Having seen so many poor beggars and grown up with them somehow inoculated me from being overly empathetic towards them. It is like a platform of the given just as kids these days have smartphones as a given never having a thought about their development. Technology was a given for kids these days as much as beggars were a given at that time for me.

Majority of Indians were poor. Rickshawallas earned only a dollar or two a day. Their only food was a bag of chuttoo (powdered chickpeas) for lunch. Chuttoo has a lot of energy and protein. They also had a family to support. With kind of poverty let me know if life expectancy can be high.
Of course you are right.

My ancestral food is central european. Somehow it doesn't give me pleasure to smell or taste anything made with Cumin or Cardamon, I'm not sure which one is to blame in Curry. Perhaps people in India are more predisposed to make the best of these ingredients and nutrients from their spices. They eat them for good few thousands of years. They might even developed a special gene to take the best from this food, like Europeans with milk.

oriental
24-04-14, 19:35
The Indo-Aryans also came from Central Asia. I really wouldn't know too much about spices. I just get the curry powder but probably tumeric is the most important. I agree people are different so certain foods may not agree with their digestive system.s Just like Lactase Intolerance. Howwever, I can drink milk and consume other dairy products without problem. Only recently I found about this thing about lactase intolerance. I guess those born in the British Empire would have adapted to milk as the British put milk in just about everything: tea, porridge, various foods and drinks. Even Indians have milk in certain foods and curries.

polako
01-05-14, 09:28
There's no longer any logic behind claims that there were additional migrations from the Near East into Eastern Europe to those that affected Western and Central Europe during the Neolithic. That's because all of the Near Eastern admixture in Eastern Europe can be explained by gene flow from early Neolithic farmers from Central Europe. The stats are very robust in that regard.

This poses a major problem for anyone who still wants to see the origin of R1a in the Near East. That's because R1a really doesn't look like it was part of the Neolithic package, and yet it's by far the most important Y-chromosome haplogroup in Eastern Europe today. So something else must explain the presence of R1a in Eastern Europe and the Near East, and the most sensible option is the same third party gene flow into both regions.

Eastern Europe and West Asia appear to be closely related in terms of genome-wide genetic structure, like, for instance, in ADMIXTURE analyses via ancestral clusters that peak in the Caucasus. But this is something of an illusion, because global and West Eurasian-specific PCA show that these two regions are not related via direct gene flow (except some recent Russian admixture in the North Caucasus).

For instance, here's a PCA of West Eurasia. Just like in all other correctly run analyses of this type, Eastern Europe and the northern part of the Near East, including the Caucasus, deviate towards the same direction in the east, but not towards each other (except, like I say, some North Caucasians who are pushed north towards Russia due to recent admixture).

docs.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQVlFTQ0oyRXNoaTQ/edit

Until recently it was impossible to know the reason for this phenomenon. I speculated that it was due to a lack of west Mediterranean ancestry in these regions, which is actually partly true, while others thought it was due to Hunnic and other admixtures from the far east. But if you look closely at the top right corner of the PCA, you'll see that MA-1, or Malt'a boy, is sitting there, and most Europeans and West Asians are actually being pulled towards his direction in varying degrees. The reason MA-1 is so far outside the range of modern genetic variation is because, unlike in some recent academic studies, he's not being projected onto the plot. Also, I limited the South Central Asian samples to Pathans and a single Kalash to make sure that South Asian admixture and heavy genetic drift typical of the Hindu Kush and surrounds didn't skew the results too much.

Needless to say, I don't think it's a coincidence that MA-1 belonged to Y-chromosome haplogroup R, and in fact it's clear to me that R1a is a marker of his relatives who contributed to the European and Near Eastern gene pools. The main question now is where exactly did this MA-1 related gene flow originate from. Based on all the data to date, the best we can say is that it was somewhere east of Central Europe and north of the Near East. The timeframe is likely to have been the Copper Age, because it follows the Neolithic, when Mediterranean-like farmers ruled Central Europe, and precedes the Bronze Age, when pre-proto-Uralics heavy in ENA (modern Siberian admixture) probably moved west of the Urals.

I'm sure that a couple of genomes from around the middle Volga from the Neolithic and Copper Age will be very useful in this context, and are likely to answer a lot of questions, including the most important ones about R1a and the Proto-Indo-Europeans.

By the way, I'm curious how any of you can still read these sorts of papers on Y-chromosome haplogroups with a straight face? Anyone who's been subjected to years of dubious and naive interpretations of limited data from academics in this area of study should really know better.

Sile
01-05-14, 11:18
There's no longer any logic behind claims that there were additional migrations from the Near East into Eastern Europe to those that affected Western and Central Europe during the Neolithic. That's because all of the Near Eastern admixture in Eastern Europe can be explained by gene flow from early Neolithic farmers from Central Europe. The stats are very robust in that regard.

This poses a major problem for anyone who still wants to see the origin of R1a in the Near East. That's because R1a really doesn't look like it was part of the Neolithic package, and yet it's by far the most important Y-chromosome haplogroup in Eastern Europe today. So something else must explain the presence of R1a in Eastern Europe and the Near East, and the most sensible option is the same third party gene flow into both regions.

Eastern Europe and West Asia appear to be closely related in terms of genome-wide genetic structure, like, for instance, in ADMIXTURE analyses via ancestral clusters that peak in the Caucasus. But this is something of an illusion, because global and West Eurasian-specific PCA show that these two regions are not related via direct gene flow (except some recent Russian admixture in the North Caucasus).

For instance, here's a PCA of West Eurasia. Just like in all other correctly run analyses of this type, Eastern Europe and the northern part of the Near East, including the Caucasus, deviate towards the same direction in the east, but not towards each other (except, like I say, some North Caucasians who are pushed north towards Russia due to recent admixture).

docs.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQVlFTQ0oyRXNoaTQ/edit

Until recently it was impossible to know the reason for this phenomenon. I speculated that it was due to a lack of west Mediterranean ancestry in these regions, which is actually partly true, while others thought it was due to Hunnic and other admixtures from the far east. But if you look closely at the top right corner of the PCA, you'll see that MA-1, or Malt'a boy, is sitting there, and most Europeans and West Asians are actually being pulled towards his direction in varying degrees. The reason MA-1 is so far outside the range of modern genetic variation is because, unlike in some recent academic studies, he's not being projected onto the plot. Also, I limited the South Central Asian samples to Pathans and a single Kalash to make sure that South Asian admixture and heavy genetic drift typical of the Hindu Kush and surrounds didn't skew the results too much.

Needless to say, I don't think it's a coincidence that MA-1 belonged to Y-chromosome haplogroup R, and in fact it's clear to me that R1a is a marker of his relatives who contributed to the European and Near Eastern gene pools. The main question now is where exactly did this MA-1 related gene flow originate from. Based on all the data to date, the best we can say is that it was somewhere east of Central Europe and north of the Near East. The timeframe is likely to have been the Copper Age, because it follows the Neolithic, when Mediterranean-like farmers ruled Central Europe, and precedes the Bronze Age, when pre-proto-Uralics heavy in ENA (modern Siberian admixture) probably moved west of the Urals.

I'm sure that a couple of genomes from around the middle Volga from the Neolithic and Copper Age will be very useful in this context, and are likely to answer a lot of questions, including the most important ones about R1a and the Proto-Indo-Europeans.

By the way, I'm curious how any of you can still read these sorts of papers on Y-chromosome haplogroups with a straight face? Anyone who's been subjected to years of dubious and naive interpretations of limited data from academics in this area of study should really know better.

where does this fit in then?
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.au/2014/04/new-page-early-kurgan-expansion-maps.html

polako
01-05-14, 11:44
where does this fit in then?
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.au/2014/04/new-page-early-kurgan-expansion-maps.html

Is that a trick question?

ANE and R1a probably expanded during the Copper Age from the red area marked as early Yamnaya. There might have been some significant genetic substructures within this zone, like with more ANE in the east and more WHG in the west, but in any case, the earliest Indo-Europeans expanding in all directions had to have had very high ratios of ANE. That's because WHG is almost missing among Greeks, and, as far as we know, it's basically missing in Asia.

My very rough guess is that this guy from the proto-Yamnaya Khvalynsk culture was 60% ANE, 20% WHG and 20% EEF.

http://imageshack.com/a/img196/5791/i0le.jpg


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-62fdcok0PT0/U1dzIeWMNKI/AAAAAAAAChk/hhpglPPJrno/s1600/IE1.png

Silesian
01-05-14, 19:50
By the way, I'm curious how any of you can still read these sorts of papers on Y-chromosome haplogroups with a straight face? Anyone who's been subjected to years of dubious and naive interpretations of limited data from academics in this area of study should really know better.

What do you think about my new signature, kind of matches my K12 result's?


R1b-U5b_{ West of Lake Baikal, dated to c. 24,000 years BP-yDNA R* and mtDNA U* }
R1b. Eastern European Cluster L584- L277-
U5b2a2 is frequent in central Europe (with the highest frequency of its subcluster U5b2a2a1 in Poles) and dated as between 12–18 kya, depending on the mutation rate used
Celebrating Biodiversity

Eurogenes K12:
South Baltic 30.45%
North Sea 20.18%
Western European 18.21%
Volga-Ural 16.18%
Mediterranean 8.12%
Caucasus 5.57%
South Asian 1.28%


K36 population & regions R1b E.E. cluster and U5b are found together

East_Central_Euro-22.93-R1b E.E. cluster+U5b
Eastern_Euro-17.15%-R1b E.E. cluster+U5b
North_Sea-11.06%
North_Atlantic-9.18%
Fennoscandian-8.36%
Central_Euro-7.12%--R1b E.E. cluster+U5b
Italian-6.17%
Iberian-4.94%
French-4.80%
North_Caucasian-2.75%
East_Balkan-2.53%
Volga-Ural-2.10%--R1b E.E. cluster{Bashkir}+U5b
West_Med-0.90%

polako
02-05-14, 06:36
What do you think about my new signature, kind of matches my K12 result's?

Very nice. I'm glad you find the tests useful.

LeBrok
02-05-14, 07:25
There's no longer any logic behind claims that there were additional migrations from the Near East into Eastern Europe to those that affected Western and Central Europe during the Neolithic. That's because all of the Near Eastern admixture in Eastern Europe can be explained by gene flow from early Neolithic farmers from Central Europe. The stats are very robust in that regard.
It was also one of my points in this discussion.


Until recently it was impossible to know the reason for this phenomenon. I speculated that it was due to a lack of west Mediterranean ancestry in these regions, which is actually partly true, while others thought it was due to Hunnic and other admixtures from the far east. But if you look closely at the top right corner of the PCA, you'll see that MA-1, or Malt'a boy, is sitting there, and most Europeans and West Asians are actually being pulled towards his direction in varying degrees. The reason MA-1 is so far outside the range of modern genetic variation is because, unlike in some recent academic studies, he's not being projected onto the plot. What do you mean by not being projected onto the plot?


Needless to say, I don't think it's a coincidence that MA-1 belonged to Y-chromosome haplogroup R, and in fact it's clear to me that R1a is a marker of his relatives who contributed to the European and Near Eastern gene pools. The main question now is where exactly did this MA-1 related gene flow originate from. R1a spent so much time in South/Central Asia that it must have been spread throughout the region as hunter gatherer communities. Somehow it missed the Early Farmer revolution, and only came to substance once Z93 clade became herders in central Asia and Z282 farmers in eastern Europe. Before that R1a was small in numbers and lived in secluded hunter communities.



I'm sure that a couple of genomes from around the middle Volga from the Neolithic and Copper Age will be very useful in this context, and are likely to answer a lot of questions, including the most important ones about R1a and the Proto-Indo-Europeans. Can't wait for new findings.


By the way, I'm curious how any of you can still read these sorts of papers on Y-chromosome haplogroups with a straight face? Anyone who's been subjected to years of dubious and naive interpretations of limited data from academics in this area of study should really know better.I'm not sure what you meant, could you elaborate?

LeBrok
02-05-14, 07:30
Is that a trick question?

ANE and R1a probably expanded during the Copper Age from the red area marked as early Yamnaya. There might have been some significant genetic substructures within this zone, like with more ANE in the east and more WHG in the west, but in any case, the earliest Indo-Europeans expanding in all directions had to have had very high ratios of ANE. That's because WHG is almost missing among Greeks, and, as far as we know, it's basically missing in Asia.

My very rough guess is that this guy from the proto-Yamnaya Khvalynsk culture was 60% ANE, 20% WHG and 20% EEF.

I think they might have started with 70 ANE and 30 WHG. Then EEF was trickling down during couple of millennia from Cucuteni close by. Once they've reached 30-40% EEF they moved North-East as Corded Ware farming culture.

Silesian
02-05-14, 07:34
Very nice. I'm glad you find the tests useful.

Question. My ydna 23&me profile is R1b/R1a with I1 and I2[the 4 comprising roughly 85%] typical I presume for the region in southern Poland. Polish/Slavic ydna is dominated by R1a say roughly 60-65%. The question I have; what language existed among I1 and I2 before R1a PIE Slavic domination/expansion?

For example, Dravidian into Sanskrit as a rough example. Is there any evidence that you have studied, showing I1 and I2 language prior to R1a and PIE ?

A substantial body of loanwords has been identified in the earliest Indian texts. Non-Indo-Aryan elements (such as -s- following -u- in Rigvedic busa) are clearly in evidence. While some loanwords are from Dravidian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dravidian_languages), and other forms are traceable to Munda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munda_languages)[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substratum_in_Vedic_Sanskrit#cite_note-2) or Proto-Burushaski (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burushaski), the bulk have no sensible basis[according to whom? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_words)] in any of these families, suggesting a source in one or more lost languages. The discovery that some loan words from one of these lost sources had also been preserved in the earliest Iranian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran) texts, and also in Tocharian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharian_script) convinced Michael Witzel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Witzel) and Alexander Lubotsky that the source lay in Central Asia and could be associated with the Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria%E2%80%93Margiana_Archaeological_Complex) (BMAC).[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substratum_in_Vedic_Sanskrit#cite_note-3) Another lost language is that of the Indus Valley Civilization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilization), which Witzel initially labelled Para-Munda, but later the Kubhā-Vipāś substrate.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substratum_in_Vedic_Sanskrit#cite_note-4)



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substratum_in_Vedic_Sanskrit

polako
02-05-14, 11:36
What do you mean by not being projected onto the plot?

In academic studies the PC loadings are computed with modern samples only and then the ancient samples are projected onto the plots based on these loadings. But this results in projection bias, with the ancient samples being dragged towards the middle of the PCA plots. I hope they fix this problem soon.


R1a spent so much time in South/Central Asia that it must have been spread throughout the region as hunter gatherer communities. Somehow it missed the Early Farmer revolution, and only came to substance once Z93 clade became herders in central Asia and Z282 farmers in eastern Europe. Before that R1a was small in numbers and lived in secluded hunter communities.

I doubt that there was any R1a in Central Asia until the Bronze Age, and South Asia until the Iron Age. I'd say it arrived there from the southern Urals with the Indo-Europeans, and most of it belonged to R1a-Z93. But there were probably some less common R1a lineages in that mix too, and perhaps that's what Underhill et al. 2014 picked up in Iran and surrounds.

I think the genuinely basal R1a lineages will have to be dug out from under the ground, because I doubt they managed to survive the multitude of expansions that have taken place on the steppe since the Copper Age.


I'm not sure what you meant, could you elaborate?

I mean that many academic studies aren't worth the bandwidth they take up.


Question. My ydna 23&me profile is R1b/R1a with I1 and I2[the 4 comprising roughly 85%] typical I presume for the region in southern Poland. Polish/Slavic ydna is dominated by R1a say roughly 60-65%. The question I have; what language existed among I1 and I2 before R1a PIE Slavic domination/expansion?

For example, Dravidian into Sanskrit as a rough example. Is there any evidence that you have studied, showing I1 and I2 language prior to R1a and PIE ?

I've never seen any studies attempting to reconstruct hunter-gatherer words from pre-Neolithic or Neolithic Europe, although I know that linguists have managed to reconstruct non-Indo-European words related to farming that probably came from Neolithic farmer languages. But no one really knows what languages these words came from. Maybe Vasconic, as Maju suggests, but I have no idea how he worked that out?

Grubbe
02-05-14, 17:26
R1a-Z284 seems very scandinavian today but I wonder if it could not be a trace of Corded Ware people coming from Germany?
R1a-M458 checks more a Balto-Slavic proto-population (in fact baltic could be the older form) these clans being the descendants of war-axes Fatyanovo culture (I'm not sure of the name), cousins it is true of the Corded...? I have to look for some thread about R1a in today Germany -
have a good brainstorm night all of you - keep cool and drink fresh! the game is the salt of life, and life is short -

We now have Y2395 as "father" of Z284 and "brother" of M458 and Z280. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a/default.aspx?section=results

As of today, only one Norwegian is Y2395* (Z284-), but quite a few English and Poles are Y2395*. I find it probable that Y2395 originated somewhere in Central Europe, but that Z284 probably originated in Scandinavia. If also Z284 originated in Central Europe (Germany), I find it strange that few if any Z284 are found there today.

MOESAN
03-05-14, 12:16
we now have y2395 as "father" of z284 and "brother" of m458 and z280. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=results

as of today, only one norwegian is y2395* (z284-), but quite a few english and poles are y2395*. I find it probable that y2395 originated somewhere in central europe, but that z284 probably originated in scandinavia. If also z284 originated in central europe (germany), i find it strange that few if any z284 are found there today.

interesting - thanks for kind answer

Silesian
03-05-14, 16:30
I doubt that there was any R1a in Central Asia until the Bronze Age, and South Asia until the Iron Age. I'd say it arrived there from the southern Urals with the Indo-Europeans, and most of it belonged to R1a-Z93. But there were probably some less common R1a lineages in that mix too, and perhaps that's what Underhill et al. 2014 picked up in Iran and surrounds.



6416

I was looking at the new R1b-snp tree for our branches. I think Anatolia and Balkans are going to give a good challenge/support for Collin Renfrew and Gray and Atkinson. .
A little lower than 45 +/- degrees, latitude many of the Eastern R1b are in cluster found L584/L277/CTS7763/PF7558/CTS7822. Along with Underhill et al. basal R1a study in Eastern Anatolia and Western Iran. The new R1b snps and R1a snps could prove to be very interesting where they cluster together.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pa7SPns8fQ
http://www.star.nesdis.noaa.gov/smcd/emb/vci/NPP_VH/demo/npp_WORLD_RGB_VGVI.G500m.C01.npp.P2012162_with8x8G rid.png

LeBrok
03-05-14, 17:06
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pa7SPns8fQ

This model has hell of a time to explain why Portuguese, Spanish, Swedish, Norwegian, Ukrainian and Russian are Indo-European. I'm not even mentioning the IE colonies in the New World!

Silesian
03-05-14, 20:01
This model has hell of a time to explain why Portuguese, Spanish, Swedish, Norwegian, Ukrainian and Russian are Indo-European. I'm not even mentioning the IE colonies in the New World!


Once the data is parsed with the refinement of snp's and R1b branching[Eastern branches] are sorted we will have a much better idea. However it would not surprise me if Anatolia and adjoining region samples of R1b [Eastern branches R1b-M269[L23] -R1b-L23[51]]has the greatest variance. This would be in the same neighborhood as the study in R1a showing basal clade variance in Eastern Anatolia in original study. In my opinion more than just co-incidence, that Anatolian languages[Hittite]/Phrygian/Greek Linear B/Armenian/[Mede-mostly unkown?][Mitanni-unknown?]] are in this same region and roughly same lattitude.

Time will tell who is right.

LeBrok
17-06-14, 20:59
Once the data is parsed with the refinement of snp's and R1b branching[Eastern branches] are sorted we will have a much better idea. However it would not surprise me if Anatolia and adjoining region samples of R1b [Eastern branches R1b-M269[L23] -R1b-L23[51]]has the greatest variance. This would be in the same neighborhood as the study in R1a showing basal clade variance in Eastern Anatolia in original study. In my opinion more than just co-incidence, that Anatolian languages[Hittite]/Phrygian/Greek Linear B/Armenian/[Mede-mostly unkown?][Mitanni-unknown?]] are in this same region and roughly same lattitude.

Time will tell who is right.

Looks like these admixture maps with strong centers in West Asia don't agree with IE R1a starting in Anatolia. As you can see Northern Slavs region Poland and Russia, and also Baltic states create hollow places in these admixtures. And these places are extremely high in R1a. Unfortunately we don't have any admixture center in Western Ukraine to see the reverse population movement, or admixture centered in Andronovo Culture to do the same.
If these admixtures are older than 4-5 thousand years we can, with big dose of certainty, say that IE rich in R1a didn't make a trip from Anatolia to Poland or Lithuania.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/West-Asian-admixture.gif


http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Gedrosian-admixture.gif

Goga
17-06-14, 21:57
Looks like these admixture maps with strong centers in West Asia don't agree with IE R1a starting in Anatolia. As you can see Northern Slavs region Poland and Russia, and also Baltic states create hollow places in these admixtures. And these places are extremely high in R1a. Unfortunately we don't have any admixture center in Western Ukraine to see the reverse population movement, or admixture centered in Andronovo Culture to do the same.
If these admixtures are older than 4-5 thousand years we can, with big dose of certainty, say that IE rich in R1a didn't make a trip from Anatolia to Poland or Lithuania.


http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Gedrosian-admixture.gifThere's still lots of Gedrosia component around the Maykop and Yamna Horizon in the Steppes around the Caspian Sea (what is nowadays modern Kazakhstan & Southern Russia). Even after the genocide of local people by the Russians (mixed with Siberians/Mongoloids and native Europeans). R1a in the Eastern Europe is very young and it arrived not so long time ago. Also there not so much diversity. Therefore I'm almost certain R1a in the Eastern Europe has been bottlenecked. R1a folks were heavily mixed with people who were N1c1, Q, and I2*. North Eastern Europe was very uncrowded. For a place like that it makes possible for a fast bottleneck.
Or do you really believe that 10 people from Lithuania who are heavily mixed with Siberians and have also lots of N1c1 in them influenced such a huge area what we call Eurasia? If that was the case, there would be lots of N1c1 in Central, Western and Southern Europe.

Goga
17-06-14, 22:02
Also proto-IE were not the same as ancient (, but already evolved) Indo-Europeans. And modern day Indo-Europeans are not the same as ancient Indo-Europeans, let alone proto-Indo-Europeans. Proto-Indo-Europeans vanished a long time ago. And people who founded great civilizations in Eurasia, like the Roman Empire, Median Empire and some empires in SouthCentral Asia were not proto-Indo-European at all, but evolved people and already very different from proto-Indo Europeans.

Goga
17-06-14, 22:19
But I'm very sure that the native Northern Europeans who belonged to haplogroups like N1c1, and I1* or I2* were totally different people than proto-Indo-Europeans. Haplogroups like ancient R1*, R1b*, R1a* or even Indo-European J2a* are 'Asian' haplogroups and never evolved and took shape inside Europe. So ancient people who belonged to those haplogroups were not ethnic native (Northern) Europeans at the first place...

Salbrox
17-06-14, 22:51
Looks like these admixture maps with strong centers in West Asia don't agree with IE R1a starting in Anatolia. As you can see Northern Slavs region Poland and Russia, and also Baltic states create hollow places in these admixtures. And these places are extremely high in R1a. Unfortunately we don't have any admixture center in Western Ukraine to see the reverse population movement, or admixture centered in Andronovo Culture to do the same.
If these admixtures are older than 4-5 thousand years we can, with big dose of certainty, say that IE rich in R1a didn't make a trip from Anatolia to Poland or Lithuania.




Arent the regions with no West Asian admixture better distinguished by high N than by R1a?

http://s30.postimg.org/akdium5ox/ydna.jpg

N is as common or more common than R1a in Baltic countries, Northern Russia and Finland, and these show no West Asian in that map. R1a peaks in Poland, Ukraine and Southern Russia, which have small amounts of West Asian component, like Northwest Europeans.

FrankN
19-06-14, 06:31
I know I am entering this discussion late, but I would like to comment on several issues discussed a few pages ago. For a start, there was the question of (proto-)Kartvelian - IE connections. Now, during the one-and-a-half year I lived in Georgia, I never managed to really decipher the script, not even speaking of learning the language. I furthermore gained a clear impression that Georgian is quite different from IE languages in many respects. Having said that, there were a few Georgian terms that obviously appeared somewhat IE to me and were thus easy to learn (I use a Latn transcript here- as I said, I never fully deciphered Georgian script):
"Ar wizi Kartulad" - "(I) don't speak / know Georgian" ("wizi" - to know <> German "wissen" - to know)
"Me minda .." - "I want .." (I wouldn't mind; French: je démande)
"Dabsandit"/ "Mobsandit" - "Sit down"/ "Sit with us" (-> Lat. sedere: to sit)
"achal" - old (>archaic)
"ts'q'ali" - water (>German "Quelle", Engl. "well")
"mts'queli" - quail
"kurka" - core
"dzé" - son
"dghe" - day
"mta" - mountain
"maghali" - large (Lat. magnus)
"patara" - small (French: petit)
"sopeli" - village (Lat. villa)
"laparaki" - to speak (Lat. loqui)
"dena"-- to flow, "mdinari"- river, stream; this is similar to celtic "Danu" (river), a root found in names like Danube, Dniester, Dniepr and Don.
"spilendsi" - copper (>splendid? In that case we might get a hint where the material was first extracted..)
"Okro" - Gold (lat. Aurum)
"puri" - bread (as in India, and prepared traditionally in a kind of tandoori, see picture below, so the technology and name should be quite ancient.

https://georgiaphiles.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/tonis-puri.jpg

And then, there is of course the Georgian national dish - Khachapuri, bread filled with white buffalo cheese ("Khacha"), a cheese quite similar to Italian Mozarella.
http://www.russianseason.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/hach12.jpg

So, there are obvious signs of linguistic contact between Georgian and IE languages. OTOH, considering that Georgians have Armenians to their SW, and Ossetians to their north, such contact is to be expected and doesn't help much in identifying possible expansion paths of IE languages.

The Georgians claim "hvino" to be an original Georgian word that has been borrowed by IE languages. I was aware of 4,000 year old wine found in amphora (and reported to still be drinkable), though it was new to me that viticulture in the area of today's Georgia has now been traced back another 4,000 years further. In any case, the country has an extremely long wine-making tradition that is archeologically well attested.
Georgians also claim various types of prunus, including apricots and cherries, to have originated in Transcaucasia. Judged by specific local processing traditions (certain plums, e.g., are harvested unripe and processed into a kind of chutney that is traditionally used as relish for shashliks/ kebabs), they at least appear to have a quite long-standing tradition in cultivating and processing the fruit.

Let me finally add that I have noted some cultural similarities between Georgia and the Pakistani Punjab. In both regions, e.g., traditional restaurants comprise a main dinning room that is reserved to men only, and separées that are used for family events where women and children are present. The Georgian rationale was that men's parties can get drunk quite heavily, so woman and children should be seated separately to avoid them being molested. If a similar rationale also existed in Pakistan, it must have arrived their prior to Islamisation.

FrankN
19-06-14, 17:05
Somehow, quite a lot of posts dealt with chariots. The following might be useful to consider in this context:

1. The Wheel: Current archaeological knowledge suggests that the wheel was invented sometimes between the 35th and 34th century BC. Early depictions of wheeled carts, or archaeological traces of them, are currently known from four places, namely Uruk, Southern Poland, Holstein, and the Ljubljana marshes.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29574-When-did-humans-first?p=432577&viewfull=1#post432577
Of these places, one, namely Southern Poland, may with a bit of goodwill be tied to Indo-Europeans, more specifically the Globular Amphora Culture that developed from 3.400 BC between Elbe an Vistula, with a southward extension towards the middle Dnieper and Dniester. I say "with a bit of goodwill", because the depiction is from a pot that was found in a Funnelbeaker grave, and is slightly pre-dating the assumed arrival of the Globular Amphora Culture in the area. The other two Central European locations are outside the area covered by the Globular Amphora Culture - one is also Funnelbeaker (Flintbek near, Kiel, Germany), the other one Baden Culture (Ljubljana marshes). Both Funnelbeaker and Baden cultures have interacted with the Globular Amphora Culture, and are thus regarded as stepping-stones of Indo-Europeanization, but here again the timelines don't fully match - the wheels appear a few centuries too early. As concerns Uruk, it was clearly not IE, but Sumerian.

There are also indications for early wheel use by the North Caucasian, proto-IE Maykop culture, which, however, yet await exact dating. Maykop, and neighbouring Yanna culture north of the Black Sea, might provide a geographical link between Northern Germany and Uruk in Southern Mesopotamia. But such a geographical link requires at least one more elements - a culture south of the Caucasus (Georgia/ Armenia), extending into Eastern Anatolia, the area that is today inhabited by Kurds.
It may also be that wheeled cars were developed independently in several locations from the flywheel. The emergence of the pottery wheel in Uruk is largely contemporary to first depictions of wheeled vehicles there, while Neolithic Europe has a well documented tradition of using flywheels with spindles and drilling devices (see the reconstruction of a 5th millennium spindle from the Sesklo culture below).
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/72/9b/9f/729b9fa232d7ba93bd830c50e057997b.jpg

In short:

So far, there is no archaeological proof that IEs invented the wheel. If they did so, the invention quickly spread to Non-IE cultures, especially Sumerian Uruk.
IEs may nevertheless have assumed an important role in disseminating wheeled vehicles. Such a role, however, would imply (proto-)IE cultures in the Pontic steppes (Yanna), the North Caucasus (Maykop), and Transcaucasia & the Anatolian highland (Kura-Araxes?). In other words - a possible IE role in the dissemination of the wheel does not bring us any further in the discussion about a Steppe or Anatolian origin of IEs.
The estimated coalescence age for the R1a Z282 <> Z93 split of 5,800 BP, i.e. 3,850 BC, is quite close, for my taste a bit too close, to the invention of the wheel, and the Indo-Europeanization of Central Europe (Globular Amphora Culture). This lets me doubt that R!a already played a major role during the initial phase of Indo-Europeanization.

Alan
19-06-14, 18:15
Looks like these admixture maps with strong centers in West Asia don't agree with IE R1a starting in Anatolia. As you can see Northern Slavs region Poland and Russia, and also Baltic states create hollow places in these admixtures. And these places are extremely high in R1a. Unfortunately we don't have any admixture center in Western Ukraine to see the reverse population movement, or admixture centered in Andronovo Culture to do the same.
If these admixtures are older than 4-5 thousand years we can, with big dose of certainty, say that IE rich in R1a didn't make a trip from Anatolia to Poland or Lithuania.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/West-Asian-admixture.gif


http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Gedrosian-admixture.gif

These maps are only usefull to get a picture of modern genetic relationship, but with our current knowledge of ancient DNA, they are useless to determine an Indo_European signal because "West Asian or Gedrosia" as such didn't exist back than. The new admixture results of Lazaridis are much better for this question and in those, all Northeast Europeans have a significant percentage of Caucasus_Gedrosia_Kalash like component.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Admixtures-Lazaridis.png

Salbrox
19-06-14, 19:08
These maps are only usefull to get a picture of modern genetic relationship, but with our current knowledge of ancient DNA, they are useless to determine an Indo_European signal because "West Asian or Gedrosia" as such didn't exist back than. The new admixture results of Lazaridis are much better for this question and in those, all Northeast Europeans have a significant percentage of Caucasus_Gedrosia_Kalash like component.



Those descriptions are funny - and not in the Lazaridis paper. :rolleyes2:

Kalash is not pure ANE or closest relative of ANE - far from it. R has not much to do with Loschbour either, and N is as common or more common in its closest modern relatives.

Nobody1
19-06-14, 20:25
These maps are only usefull to get a picture of modern genetic relationship, but with our current knowledge of ancient DNA, they are useless to determine an Indo_European signal because "West Asian or Gedrosia" as such didn't exist back than. The new admixture results of Lazaridis are much better for this question and in those, all Northeast Europeans have a significant percentage of Caucasus_Gedrosia_Kalash like component.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Admixtures-Lazaridis.png

something like that

Sile
19-06-14, 20:39
These maps are only usefull to get a picture of modern genetic relationship, but with our current knowledge of ancient DNA, they are useless to determine an Indo_European signal because "West Asian or Gedrosia" as such didn't exist back than. The new admixture results of Lazaridis are much better for this question and in those, all Northeast Europeans have a significant percentage of Caucasus_Gedrosia_Kalash like component.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Admixtures-Lazaridis.png

why is 192.1 excluded from the ancient list?

I know K8 is contaminated and should never be used

Isn't Karafet lastest paper from a month ago state the P and later R group frpm P formed in south-east asia ?

FrankN
20-06-14, 16:09
I am envisaging quite a number of further write-ups (on chariots, horses, etc.), which I will eventually post, but, to cut a long story short, here the answer to the key question: Why would R1a move from Eastern Anatolia / Northern Iran to Eastern Europe via BMAC (Afghanistan/ Turkmenistan), instead of taking a shortcut through the Caucasus and the Pontic steppes? The answer is simple:

Bronze age Mesopotamia and Eastern Mediterranean needed tin, which is scarce in the region. There are a few smaller tin mines in the Taurus mountains in Eastern Anatolia that appear to have been exploited during the early Bronze Age (http://www.academia.edu/1581326/Strategic_Industries_and_Tin_in_the_Ancient_NE_Ana tolia_Updated), but they are unlikely to have covered more than a fraction of the demand. Consequently, archaeologists have for a long time been looking at Central Asia as possible tin supply source (http://www.penn.museum/documents/publications/expedition/PDFs/25-1/Cleuziou.pdf) Finds of Lapis Lazuli from NE Afghanistan in Mesopotamia and Egypt evidence trade links that most likely already commenced during the Mesolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapis_lazuli).

Aside from Western and NE Afghanistan, relevant tin concentrations that are supposed to have been exploited during the Bronze Age occur on the northern rim of the Kopet Dag range, which runs along today's border between Iran and Turkmenistan. We are roughly talking a north-westerly line from Herat (West Afghanistan) via Ashgabat to Türkmenbashi on the Caspian Sea shore here. At the centre of this belt is the site of Namazga-Tepe, whose culture is sometimes regarded as a predecessor, sometimes as integral part of the BMAC complex. There are clear archaeological traces of chalcolithic cultural and population incursion from north-central Iran into the area, while the nature of this incursion (violent or peaceful-assimilative) is still being disputed. Somewhat later, around 2,100 BC, the Kopet Dag (western BMAC) culture develops links with the Andronovo culture in the Southern Ural, but possibly not only to there. The following maps, extracted from this excellent presentation http://www.archatlas.org/workshop09/works09-wilkinson.php display cost-distance maps for Namazga/ BMAC tin exports. The mines themselves are indicated by red dots. The whiter an area, the more likely it is to have been importing tin from Namazga / BMAC. Note especially the south-eastern expansion through the Hindukush, with the addition of new tin mines in Central/ Southern Afghanistan and the Punjab.
6502
6503

While I am at tin: There are 3-4 major European tin regions that are known or supposed to have been exploited during the Bronze Age: Cornwall, Britanny, NW Iberia (Galicia), and the Erzgebirge / Sudetian mountains. The Celtic link to the first three regions is obvious; the fourth region is in the area where the Globular Amphora Culture, possibly Central Europe's first IE culture, developed.
That leaves us with the Tocharians in the Tarim basin. Strabo mentions tin import from the Tarim, and the issue is briefly discussed here http://books.google.de/books?id=c9UUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA239&lpg=PA239&dq=Tin+mine+Tarim&source=bl&ots=1xbThy1-uX&sig=qwu_gzsNbNc3PqJvSVra7fqF9CQ&hl=de&sa=X&ei=LRSkU-KHA6vB7Aar4YGAAQ&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Tin%20mine%20Tarim&f=false. An in-depth geological study notes http://www.mantleplumes.org/WebDocuments/DeBoorder2013.pdf

The Early Permian Muruntau district and the other prominent gold deposits in the South Tianshan are clear examples because with their dominating arsenic and tungsten contents they compare directly with the gold deposits of the French Massif Central. With their tungsten, tin and copper both districts compare with the tin-copper deposits in Cornwall.

There is another major tin belt that is known to have been exploited in antiquity, and is accounting for most of today's tin production. It runs from Yunnan in SW China through the Malaysian peninsula down to Eastern Sumatra. If you would like to get control over these mines, or at least their possible export routes towards the Middle East and the Mediterrenean, where would you go? Down the Ganges, and then further along the North-Eastern tributaries, especially the Brahmaputra, doesn't seem a bad idea. Now, check the R1a-M780 distribution map ... For R1a-Z2125, note how the largest concentration occurs between the tin and Lapis Lazuli mines in NE Afghanistan, the Muruntau ore district in central Uzbekistan that is mentioned in the quote above, and along the Tianshan mountains in Uzbekistan and southern Kasachstan.
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/images/ejhg201450f3.jpg

The Z93* cluster in the Altai, finally, seems to compare well to the late 3rd/ early 2nd millennium BC tin & copper mines that have recently been discovered there (http://www.gerda-henkel-stiftung.de/?page_id=76357, in German) .
http://www.gerda-henkel-stiftung.de/binaries/content/85540/kazachstan_karte_mit_3_fo_de_1268x1024.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times)

LeBrok
20-06-14, 16:34
I am envisaging quite a number of further write-ups (on chariots, horses, etc.), which I will eventually post, but, to cut a long story short, here the answer to the key question: Why would R1a move from Eastern Anatolia / Northern Iran to Eastern Europe via BMAC (Afghanistan/ Turkmenistan), instead of taking a shortcut through the Caucasus and the Pontic steppes? The answer is simple:

Bronze age Mesopotamia and Eastern Mediterranean needed tin, which is scarce in the region. There are a few smaller tin mines in the Taurus mountains in Eastern Anatolia that appear to have been exploited during the early Bronze Age (http://www.academia.edu/1581326/Strategic_Industries_and_Tin_in_the_Ancient_NE_Ana tolia_Updated), but they are unlikely to have covered more than a fraction of the demand. Consequently, archaeologists have for a long time been looking at Central Asia as possible tin supply source (http://www.penn.museum/documents/publications/expedition/PDFs/25-1/Cleuziou.pdf) Finds of Lapis Lazuli from NE Afghanistan in Mesopotamia and Egypt evidence trade links that most likely already commenced during the Mesolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapis_lazuli).

Aside from Western and NE Afghanistan, relevant tin concentrations that are supposed to have been exploited during the Bronze Age occur on the northern rim of the Kopet Dag range, which runs along today's border between Iran and Turkmenistan. We are roughly talking a north-westerly line from Herat (West Afghanistan) via Ashgabat to Türkmenbashi on the Caspian Sea shore here. At the centre of this belt is the site of Namazga-Tepe, whose culture is sometimes regarded as a predecessor, sometimes as integral part of the BMAC complex. There are clear archaeological traces of chalcolithic cultural and population incursion from north-central Iran into the area, while the nature of this incursion (violent or peaceful-assimilative) is still being disputed. Somewhat later, around 2,100 BC, the Kopet Dag (western BMAC) culture develops links with the Andronovo culture in the Southern Ural, but possibly not only to there. The following maps, extracted from this excellent presentation http://www.archatlas.org/workshop09/works09-wilkinson.php display cost-distance maps for Namazga/ BMAC tin exports. The mines themselves are indicated by red dots. The whiter an area, the more likely it is to have been importing tin from Namazga / BMAC. Note especially the south-eastern expansion through the Hindukush, with the addition of new tin mines in Central/ Southern Afghanistan and the Punjab.
6501
6500

While I am at tin: There are 3-4 major European tin regions that are known or supposed to have been exploited during the Bronze Age: Cornwall, Britanny, NW Iberia (Galicia), and the Erzgebirge / Sudetian mountains. The Celtic link to the first three regions is obvious; the fourth region is in the area where the Globular Amphora Culture, possibly Central Europe's first IE culture, developed.
That leaves us with the Tocharians in the Tarim basin. Strabo mentions tin import from the Tarim, and the issue is briefly discussed here http://books.google.de/books?id=c9UUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA239&lpg=PA239&dq=Tin+mine+Tarim&source=bl&ots=1xbThy1-uX&sig=qwu_gzsNbNc3PqJvSVra7fqF9CQ&hl=de&sa=X&ei=LRSkU-KHA6vB7Aar4YGAAQ&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Tin%20mine%20Tarim&f=false. An in-depth geological study notes http://www.mantleplumes.org/WebDocuments/DeBoorder2013.pdf

There is another major tin belt that is known to have been exploited in antiquity, and is accounting for most of today's tin production. It runs from Yunnan in SW China through the Malaysian peninsula down to Eastern Sumatra. If you would like to get control over these mines, or at least their possible export routes towards the Middle East and the Mediterrenean, where would you go? Down the Ganges, and then further along the North-Eastern tributaries, especially the Brahmaputra, doesn't seem a bad idea. Now, check the R1a-M780 distribution map ... For R1a-Z2125, note how the largest concentration occurs between the tin and Lapis Lazuli mines in NE Afghanistan, the Muruntau ore district in central Uzbekistan that is mentioned in the quote above, and along the Tianshan mountains in Uzbekistan and southern Kasachstan.


The Z93* cluster in the Altai, finally, seems to compare well to the late 3rd/ early 2nd millennium BC tin & copper mines that have recently been discovered there (http://www.gerda-henkel-stiftung.de/?page_id=76357, in German) .


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times)
Interesting point of view. Migrations and settlements of people dictated by need for bronze, and not necessary by need for food and land. I'm not sure if I entirely agree, I must say, but definitely something to consider strongly.

FrankN
20-06-14, 18:29
There is another major tin belt that is known to have been exploited in antiquity, and is accounting for most of today's tin production. It runs from Yunnan in SW China through the Malaysian peninsula down to Eastern Sumatra. If you would like to get control over these mines, or at least their possible export routes towards the Middle East and the Mediterrenean, where would you go? Down the Ganges, and then further along the North-Eastern tributaries, especially the Brahmaputra, doesn't seem a bad idea. Now, check the R1a-M780 distribution map ... For R1a-Z2125, note how the largest concentration occurs between the tin and Lapis Lazuli mines in NE Afghanistan, the Muruntau ore district in central Uzbekistan that is mentioned in the quote above, and along the Tianshan mountains in Uzbekistan and southern Kasachstan.
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/images/ejhg201450f3.jpg

The Z93* cluster in the Altai, finally, seems to compare well to the late 3rd/ early 2nd millennium BC tin & copper mines that have recently been discovered there (http://www.gerda-henkel-stiftung.de/?page_id=76357, in German) .
http://www.gerda-henkel-stiftung.de/binaries/content/85540/kazachstan_karte_mit_3_fo_de_1268x1024.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times)

I found it a bit strange that people which, according my theory, would cross most of Eurasia for control of tin mines should stop just west of what today is the largest tin producing area in the world, namely Gejiu/ Kokiu, near the middle Red River in Yunnan in SW China. So I looked a bit more into the development of bronze technology in East and Southeast Asia. There appears to be a consensus emerging that bronze technology spread into NE China from the West, especially with the Seima-Turbino phenomenon that evolved around the Altai (see my second map in the quote above). Another route that has been established is from Yunnan, and more specifically Dali district in West-Central Yunnan, towards Vietnam, Thailand and ultimately Malaysia and Indonesia. The linkage of these two routes, however, is still obscure, as the Central Chinese plain has obviously been by-passed (http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp213_bronze_metallurgy.pdf, p.6).

Especially the Dian Kingdom that evolved in Yunnan before the region became part of the Han Empire had developed a sophisticated bronze culture that, however, doesn't really appear to display Central Asian influence. Instead - well, judge by yourself:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/CMOC_Treasures_of_Ancient_China_exhibit_-_bronze_cowrie_container.jpg
http://en.ynta.gov.cn/UploadFiles/RMWZT/2010/4/201004291347123912.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dian_Kingdom

And then there is the location from where bronze technology started its course into SE Asia - the upper valley of the Red River, in the administrative district of Dali, home to the Bai or Baip people, an ethnonym that means "white". I guess anybody with a bit of linguistic knowledge knows what kind of evidence I am trying to build up here. However, before going any further: Is anybody aware of DNA studies for Yunnan province, especially among the ethnic minorities, e.g. the Bai, in West Yunnan? Any R1a found there?

Sile
20-06-14, 20:26
I found it a bit strange that people which, according my theory, would cross most of Eurasia for control of tin mines should stop just west of what today is the largest tin producing area in the world, namely Gejiu/ Kokiu, near the middle Red River in Yunnan in SW China. So I looked a bit more into the development of bronze technology in East and Southeast Asia. There appears to be a consensus emerging that bronze technology spread into NE China from the West, especially with the Seima-Turbino phenomenon that evolved around the Altai (see my second map in the quote above). Another route that has been established is from Yunnan, and more specifically Dali district in West-Central Yunnan, towards Vietnam, Thailand and ultimately Malaysia and Indonesia. The linkage of these two routes, however, is still obscure, as the Central Chinese plain has obviously been by-passed (http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp213_bronze_metallurgy.pdf, p.6).

Especially the Dian Kingdom that evolved in Yunnan before the region became part of the Han Empire had developed a sophisticated bronze culture that, however, doesn't really appear to display Central Asian influence. Instead - well, judge by yourself:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/CMOC_Treasures_of_Ancient_China_exhibit_-_bronze_cowrie_container.jpg
http://en.ynta.gov.cn/UploadFiles/RMWZT/2010/4/201004291347123912.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dian_Kingdom

And then there is the location from where bronze technology started its course into SE Asia - the upper valley of the Red River, in the administrative district of Dali, home to the Bai or Baip people, an ethnonym that means "white". I guess anybody with a bit of linguistic knowledge knows what kind of evidence I am trying to build up here. However, before going any further: Is anybody aware of DNA studies for Yunnan province, especially among the ethnic minorities, e.g. the Bai, in West Yunnan? Any R1a found there?

Well N and O hagplogroup went north-east from northern India .................N went north then went west to Finland and O went north and East to Japan .................both are K in origin

there are plenty of long distant migrations

oriental
20-06-14, 22:15
O went south from Pamir Mountains to Tibet then followed rivers to India and Vietnam then went northeast to China. There are O2 in Bengal and east India and whole of Southeast Asia. From China O went to Japan. There are few O2 or O3 in Siberia.

Sile
21-06-14, 02:25
O went south from Pamir Mountains to Tibet then followed rivers to India and Vietnam then went northeast to China. There are O2 in Bengal and east India and whole of Southeast Asia. From China O went to Japan. There are few O2 or O3 in Siberia.

are you sure about N and O in the pamir mountains ?

when K was in gedrosia and left behind T and L and went to Malaysia to form P .................N and O must have also been in Gedrosia

You scenario only makes sense if K was originally from the pamir mountains

LeBrok
21-06-14, 03:21
I found it a bit strange that people which, according my theory, would cross most of Eurasia for control of tin mines should stop just west of what today is the largest tin producing area in the world, namely Gejiu/ Kokiu, near the middle Red River in Yunnan in SW China. So I looked a bit more into the development of bronze technology in East and Southeast Asia. There appears to be a consensus emerging that bronze technology spread into NE China from the West, especially with the Seima-Turbino phenomenon that evolved around the Altai (see my second map in the quote above). Another route that has been established is from Yunnan, and more specifically Dali district in West-Central Yunnan, towards Vietnam, Thailand and ultimately Malaysia and Indonesia. The linkage of these two routes, however, is still obscure, as the Central Chinese plain has obviously been by-passed (http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp213_bronze_metallurgy.pdf, p.6).

Especially the Dian Kingdom that evolved in Yunnan before the region became part of the Han Empire had developed a sophisticated bronze culture that, however, doesn't really appear to display Central Asian influence. Instead - well, judge by yourself:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/CMOC_Treasures_of_Ancient_China_exhibit_-_bronze_cowrie_container.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dian_Kingdom

And then there is the location from where bronze technology started its course into SE Asia - the upper valley of the Red River, in the administrative district of Dali, home to the Bai or Baip people, an ethnonym that means "white". I guess anybody with a bit of linguistic knowledge knows what kind of evidence I am trying to build up here. However, before going any further: Is anybody aware of DNA studies for Yunnan province, especially among the ethnic minorities, e.g. the Bai, in West Yunnan? Any R1a found there?
I have no idea of Yunnan haplogroups, but this art is amazing!!! Is this bronze or copper?

FrankN
21-06-14, 17:20
I have no idea of Yunnan haplogroups, but this art is amazing!!! Is this bronze or copper?
According to Wikipedia, it is bronze, 2nd -1st century BC. Apparently, it used to be a bronze war drum (first specimens of which are found dating back to the 12th century BC) that has been turned into a cowry shell container. For that purpose, the top of the drum has been removed and replaced by the sculptured lid. The burial where it has been found must have belonged to a quite wealthy and influential person, possibly the king.

Otherwise: I have noted that the attachments to my post #279 don't seem to load, even though they show up fine on my computer when I try to edit the post. The first attachment has now been fixed and should be accessible (even though it doesn't display as thumbnail). With the second one, I still have upload problems (and it is not upload space, that should still be sufficient). Maybe one of the admins could look a bit into the technical stuff and sort out that attachment mess (which I am not experiencing the first time)..

LeBrok
21-06-14, 17:25
According to Wikipedia, it is bronze, 2nd -1st century BC. Apparently, it used to be a bronze war drum (first specimens of which are found dating back to the 12th century BC) that has been turned into a cowry shell container. For that purpose, the top of the drum has been removed and replaced by the sculptured lid. The burial where it has been found must have belonged to a quite wealthy and influential person, possibly the king.

Otherwise: I have noted that the attachments to my post #279 don't seem to load, even though they show up fine on my computer when I try to edit the post. The first attachment has now been fixed and should be accessible (even though it doesn't display as thumbnail). With the second one, I still have upload problems (and it is not upload space, that should still be sufficient). Maybe one of the admins could look a bit into the technical stuff and sort out that attachment mess (which I am not experiencing the first time)..
293? I can see them fine. To really look into inner working of this site you need to PM Maciamo.

FrankN
21-06-14, 17:37
O..k., the second attachment to post 279 is now also up and working, but again without thumbnail. As some people here may not click links, let me repeat the relating text and post the maps in full size (strangely, once pictures have been uploaded to Eupedia, I can embed them like any other public image)


Aside from Western and NE Afghanistan, relevant tin concentrations that are supposed to have been exploited during the Bronze Age occur on the northern rim of the Kopet Dag range, which runs along today's border between Iran and Turkmenistan. We are roughly talking a north-westerly line from Herat (West Afghanistan) via Ashgabat to Türkmenbashi on the Caspian Sea shore here. At the centre of this belt is the site of Namazga-Tepe, whose culture is sometimes regarded as a predecessor, sometimes as integral part of the BMAC complex. There are clear archaeological traces of chalcolithic cultural and population incursion from north-central Iran into the area, while the nature of this incursion (violent or peaceful-assimilative) is still being disputed. Somewhat later, around 2,100 BC, the Kopet Dag (western BMAC) culture develops links with the Andronovo culture in the Southern Ural, but possibly not only to there. The following maps, extracted from this excellent presentation http://www.archatlas.org/workshop09/works09-wilkinson.php display cost-distance maps for Namazga/ BMAC tin exports. The mines themselves are indicated by red dots. The whiter an area, the more likely it is to have been importing tin from Namazga / BMAC. Note especially the south-eastern expansion through the Hindukush, with the addition of new tin mines in Central/ Southern Afghanistan and the Punjab.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6502&d=1403361618
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6503&d=1403364280

oriental
21-06-14, 20:30
NOP split from K. There lots of H and L in India. O2 is mostly in Eastern India - Bengal so they must have come down from the Himalayas down the rivers Brahmaputra, Irrawady, Mekong and Yangtse Kiang and Yellow rivers.

From the haplogroup distribution NOP must have been in the north near the Pamir mountains. There is no O2 in west India or very little.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_O-M175

oriental
21-06-14, 21:00
Haplogroups in India:

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/u-map-india.png

world haplogroups:

http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf

oriental
22-06-14, 22:47
Black water buffalo used in Asia:

http://www.highlightskids.com/audio-story/zhu-li%E2%80%99s-gentle-giant

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plough

Robert6
09-10-14, 09:15
Can we see Z282 as Corded Ware culture and Z93 as Indo-Iranian?

It could indicate Kazakhstan as Center of Iranic tribes before expansion to the South? South to Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India.
IE cultures in the South were Yaz culture and Swat culture these are Iron age cultures.

(Ancestor of) Z93 and Z282 were in Kelteminar culture(Kazahstan Uzbekistan),
Z282 migrated towards Pit–Comb Ware culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit%E2%80%93Comb_Ware_culture) and later absorbed by the later Corded Ware horizon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture).
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30532-Kelteminar-culture-gt-gt-Pit%E2%80%93Comb-Ware-culture-which-haplogroup-did-they-had

LeBrok
10-10-14, 05:30
IE cultures in the South were Yaz culture and Swat culture these are Iron age cultures.

(Ancestor of) Z93 and Z282 were in Kelteminar culture(Kazahstan Uzbekistan),
Z282 migrated towards Pit–Comb Ware culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit%E2%80%93Comb_Ware_culture) and later absorbed by the later Corded Ware horizon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture).
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30532-Kelteminar-culture-gt-gt-Pit%E2%80%93Comb-Ware-culture-which-haplogroup-did-they-had
Z282 should be found in Yamna culture. If Pit-Comb culture was HG, they didn't mix well with agricultural Corded Ware. Pit-Comb could have been absorbed but their genetic imprint would have been minimal. I doubt that Pit-Comb was rich in Z282. Hopefully we will know soon.

Robert6
11-10-14, 10:07
Z282 should be found in Yamna culture. If Pit-Comb culture was HG, they didn't mix well with agricultural Corded Ware. Pit-Comb could have been absorbed but their genetic imprint would have been minimal. I doubt that Pit-Comb was rich in Z282. Hopefully we will know soon.
Yamna is Proto-Indo-Iranian(or Indo-Greek) I doubt that Yamna had lots of Z282

LeBrok
14-02-15, 17:16
Using recent genetic data, user Tmenable presented his simple yet beautiful observation here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30878-Massive-migration-from-the-steppe-is-a-source-for-Indo-European-languages-in-Europe?p=449778&viewfull=1#post449778):


Corded Ware individual I0104, age 2473 - 2348 BCE, is M417 - which is ancestral to 99% of modern R1a (including Z93 and CTS 4385).

He lived 4350 - 4500 years ago. And according to Underhill 2014, the R-M417 has an estimated TMRCA of 4800 - 6800 years ago, average of 5000.

While according to Haak 2015 it has an estiated TMRCA of 5800 years ago.

Anyway, our M417 from Corded Ware lived between 300 and 2500 years after the common ancestor of 99% of modern R1a.

Moreover, that hunter-gatherer from Karelia from 7000 - 7500 years ago (5000 - 5500 BCE) is ancestral to M417 !!!

So it seems very probable that common ancestor for 99% of all R1a lived in Europe somewhere between Finland-Russia and East Germany.

Let's also check Y-DNA from steppe / nomadic cultures, discovered to date:

Yamnaya - R1b
=============
Corded Ware - R1a
Tocharians - R1a (and Tocharian R1a is M417, but not Z93)
Andronovo - R1a
Scythians - R1a

More things pointing to Steppe, East Europe and North West Asia, being the birthplace of modern R1a clades (also R1b clades as per recent paper (http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf)) and at the same time being the initial place of IE expansion.

Tomenable
17-02-15, 00:08
And something more:

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080421182026AAfFxuH


(...) the original Indo-European homeland appears to have been somewhere between the Baltic Sea and the Ural Mountains. Almost in the same region as the original Finno-Ugrian homeland. (...)

Silesian
27-06-15, 17:37
There's no longer any logic behind claims that there were additional migrations from the Near East into Eastern Europe to those that affected Western and Central Europe during the Neolithic. ..............

Next set of questions.
How long has R1a been in Poland/Russia and or Steppe region 10k? 20k?
Where will oldest samples come from :)

LeBrok
27-06-15, 20:31
Next set of questions.
How long has R1a been in Poland/Russia and or Steppe region 10k? 20k?
Where will oldest samples come from :)
I thought we were talking about IE who existed 5-4kya. Why should we go 10 or 20k looking for their markers?

arvistro
27-06-15, 21:07
I think it is a good question nevertheless. Where did R1a came from to arrive in Corded Ware? From Dniepr-Donets? From Sredny Stog?
From where did it arrive to Dniepr-Donets?