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LeBrok
27-03-14, 20:16
Thanks to this paper:
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n1/full/ejhg201450a.html (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/ejhg201450ft.html)


and nice R1a maps:
http://s2.postimg.org/uv4zue9ex/ejhg201450f2.jpg


http://s13.postimg.org/e4sqpkurb/ejhg201450f3.jpg
Can we see Z282 as Corded Ware culture and Z93 as Indo-Iranian?

It could indicate Kazakhstan as Center of Iranic tribes before expansion to the South? South to Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India.

It is interesting how fairly unmixed Z282 and Z93 survived after the split for last 4,500 years or so. Even though we have many hunic/nomadic incursions into Europe through all this time. Unless Z93 belonged mostly to farmers not participating in nomadic/hunnic tribes of BC period migrations? Or perhaps maybe because Z282 was in farming populations, and Z93 was in nomadic?

What history says, were Iranic tribes nomads or farmers?

Here is my take on this:

In Paleolithic R1a had to be hunter-gatherers, perhaps of nomadic nature, because of climate and herds of hunting animals movements in the steppe and central Asia.
In neolithic, they took on farming from Near East Farmers. The S224 (the father clad of Z282 and Z93) got very successful and multiplied through the farming communities. They could have done that anywhere in Steppe from Ukraine through Kazakhstan, because during Holocene Optimum, 6-4 kyBP it was warmer and moister than today, and existence of cities and towns (4 k y old) and farming communities are attested in the Steppe.

After the split, S224 went into North-Central Europe as Corded Ware culture and developed Z282 subclade. They kept on farming till today, because Europe never dried up, unlike the Steppe.

Z93 most likely developed in Kazakhstan also in farming communities around 4,000BP. When steppes started to dry they shifted to herders-nomads, became very mobile, because of horses, and moved to South Asia, when pushed by cooling climate in the steppe.

Most likely development, spread and success of some subclades comes with major technological and historical events, making only certain subclades successful:
S224 Indo-Europeans - could have become successful when R1a switched to farming. Might indicate the R1a switch to farming. S224 as a farmer's subclade multiplied much faster than other R1a hunter-gatherer's clades.
Z93 Indo-Iranians - might indicate switch of R1a to herding. Could have been the subclade of first family who took on herding. When farming collapsed in the steppe many R1a farming subclades died out together with it. Only once who switched to herding or hybrid farming/herding survived.
Z282 Corded-Ware - IE farmers expanding to Central-North and East Europe during bronze age. Perhaps they have figured out the way how to farm in heavy forested area of Europe with bronze tools, or developed wheat variety growing better in this colder climate.

Aberdeen
27-03-14, 22:18
Those maps look convincing. As for whether Iranian tribes were nomads or farmers, nomads are generally more likely to explode in an orgy of conquest and overrun other groups. But if the Iranians were probably nomads by the time they spread IE culture into Asia, that doesn't necessarily mean that their ancestors couldn't have been farmers who traded that lifestyle in for nomadic herding in response to climate change. I don't think the common concept that pastoralists must have learned animal husbandry from crop farmers is always true. I think the the Sami could have learned reindeer herding on their own, for example. But it does seem likely that in most cases pastoralists either were originally crop farmers or learned animal husbandry from crop farming neighbours. I think either explanation could be true for the Iranians prior to their expansion.

LeBrok
28-03-14, 07:41
Those maps look convincing. As for whether Iranian tribes were nomads or farmers, nomads are generally more likely to explode in an orgy of conquest and overrun other groups. But if the Iranians were probably nomads by the time they spread IE culture into Asia, that doesn't necessarily mean that their ancestors couldn't have been farmers who traded that lifestyle in for nomadic herding in response to climate change. I don't think the common concept that pastoralists must have learned animal husbandry from crop farmers is always true. I think the the Sami could have learned reindeer herding on their own, for example. But it does seem likely that in most cases pastoralists either were originally crop farmers or learned animal husbandry from crop farming neighbours. I think either explanation could be true for the Iranians prior to their expansion.
I remember watching a program with Russian archaeologists explaining it same way. Before 2,000 BC it was pretty wet in steppes and Iranians were farming and building big cities. After 2,000 BC there was a cool and dry period. Cities were abandoned, locals became more pastoralists and most of them moved south.
I think Persians were famous with their swift and numerous cavalry. More typical for steppe nomads.

Sile
28-03-14, 07:52
Thank to this paper:
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/ejhg201450ft.html


and nice R1a maps:
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/images/ejhg201450f2.jpg

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/images/ejhg201450f3.jpg

Can we see Z282 as Corded Ware culture and Z93 as Iranic-Aryan?

It could indicate Kazakhstan as Center of Iranic tribes before expansion to the South? South to Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India.

It is interesting how fairly unmixed Z282 and Z93 survived after the split for last 4,500 years or so. Even though we have many hunic/nomadic incursions into Europe through all this time. Unless Z93 belonged mostly to farmers not participating in nomadic/hunnic tribes of BC period migrations? Or perhaps maybe because Z282 was in farming populations, and Z93 was in nomadic?

What history says, were Iranic tribes nomads of farmers?

What are the contours on the maps for?
Clearly they are not to do with density of marker as Maciano haplogroup maps shows density without contours.
Are they like weather maps, the closer the contours , the more recent the migration?

Goga
28-03-14, 08:07
To my understanding according to this paper the split of R1a occurred somewhere between Western parts of the Iranian Plateau and Northern Caucasus. So, the original R1a was from West Asia. One part of R1a migrated into the Eastern Europe, while other part migrated into the Central Asia. Maybe MAYKOP was also partly R1a?
I belong to a R1a clade which is neither Central Asian nor Eastern Europe. My haplogroup is ancestral to both groups. And my R1a is originally from Kurdistan Zagros Mountains.

So this scientific paper makes sense to me. Also, makes an end to all speculations by amateur hobbyists online with hidden agenda's where nationalism and racism are playing an important part of their motives.

Btw, 'Aryans' were SEMI-nomads.

Goga
28-03-14, 08:13
There was also some back migration of R1a into the Iranian Plateau and Kurdistan. The back migration happened mostly with the Parthians and Central Asian Scythians.

True proto-Iranians were an admix between J2a and R1a.

bicicleur
28-03-14, 08:54
According to the paper coalescence was 5800 y BP, that is before the steppe warriors, who orginated 3500 y BP with the Seima-Turbino phenomen, which is linked to N1c1.
If you look careful, you'll see none of the clades stayed on the steppe, except Z93* who stayed on the edge of the steppe near the Altaï Mts.
R1a were not steppe warriors, but cattle (horse) farmers. They had horses and bronze weapons though and it was fairly easy for them to conquer the southern civilizations when they had to leave the steppes.

Engel
28-03-14, 09:06
Hey but the kurds nor iranians are Aryan by any stretch of imagination

Goga
28-03-14, 12:13
According to the paper coalescence was 5800 y BP, that is before the steppe warriors, who orginated 3500 y BP with the Seima-Turbino phenomen, which is linked to N1c1.
If you look careful, you'll see none of the clades stayed on the steppe, except Z93* who stayed on the edge of the steppe near the Altaï Mts.
R1a were not steppe warriors, but cattle (horse) farmers. They had horses and bronze weapons though and it was fairly easy for them to conquer the southern civilizations when they had to leave the steppes.No, not 5800BP, but for about 5800 years ago. Also, some 'southern civilizations' were much more advanced than Central Asian people at that time. R1a in Central Asia was 'bottle necked'.

" CONCLUSION
Our phylogeographic data lead us to conclude that the initial episodes of R1a-M420 diversification occurred in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey, and we estimate that diversification downstream of 417/Page7 occurred ~5800 years ago. This suggests the possibility that R1a lineages accompanied demic expansions initiated during the Copper, Bronze, and Iron ages, partially replacing previous Y-chromosome strata, an interpretation consistent with albeit limited ancient DNA evidence. "


http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/pdf/ejhg201450a.pdf

Taranis
28-03-14, 15:09
To my understanding according to this paper the split of R1a occurred somewhere between Western parts of the Iranian Plateau and Northern Caucasus. So, the original R1a was from West Asia. One part of R1a migrated into the Eastern Europe, while other part migrated into the Central Asia. Maybe MAYKOP was also partly R1a?
I belong to a R1a clade which is neither Central Asian nor Eastern Europe. My haplogroup is ancestral to both groups. And my R1a is originally from Kurdistan Zagros Mountains.

So this scientific paper makes sense to me. Also, makes an end to all speculations by amateur hobbyists online with hidden agenda's where nationalism and racism are playing an important part of their motives.

Btw, 'Aryans' were SEMI-nomads.



The problem with your idea for an Iranian plateau origin is that it does not add up with the "tree" of R1a:

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a-tree.gif
One of the oldest branches of R1a to splinter off is L664, which is found in northwestern Europe. In my opinion, its more plausible that R1a was located in the North European plain, and spread westward from there, and the expansion into Central and South Asia happened only with the Indo-European expansion. As LeBrok noted, Z93 definitely seems to match up very well with the Indo-Iranic branch of Indo-European.


Hey but the kurds nor iranians are Aryan by any stretch of imagination

Kurdish is an Indo-European language, part of the Indo-Iranic languages, part of the Iranic languages. The reason I personally think that the term "Aryan" is awful because depending on the context (and also the time the literature is written) it can variably mean "Indo-European" (esp. late 19th century literature, this is also where the Nazis stole their usage of the word, even though in German language literature the term "Indogermanisch" - 'Indo-Germanic' was overwhelmingly used stead), "Indo-Iranic", "Iranic" or "Indic". With regard for the Kurdish language, every one of these definitions except the last one (Indic) applies to it.

Aberdeen
28-03-14, 15:15
No, not 5800BP, but for about 5800 years ago. Also, some 'southern civilizations' were much more advanced than Central Asian people at that time. R1a in Central Asia was 'bottle necked'.

...............

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/pdf/ejhg201450a.pdf

The letter BP, when used in that context, mean "before present". So 5800BP means 5800 years ago. I don't think that's a difficult concept.

LeBrok
28-03-14, 18:20
According to the paper coalescence was 5800 y BP, It is pretty good, it happened over a one thousand years before Corded-Iranic split of IE, and there was no additional coalescence since. In this case the S224 R1a1a1b was the original IE subclade.


that is before the steppe warriors, who orginated 3500 y BP What do you mean by steppe warriors at 3500BP? There were no warriors in the steppe before this time? Or do you mean a specific type of warrior, the first warrior on a horse?


If you look careful, you'll see none of the clades stayed on the steppe, except Z93* who stayed on the edge of the steppe near the Altaï Mts.
The Corded-Iranic split of IE must have happened during S224 stage and before mutations into Z93 and Z282, some time after Corded went into Central/North Europe and Iranic moved East or stayed in same place if Kazakhstan was a home to S224.


R1a were not steppe warriors, but cattle (horse) farmers. They had horses and bronze weapons though and it was fairly easy for them to conquer the southern civilizations when they had to leave the steppes. I believe you have an internal conflict about Indo-Iranic tribes. :)

In Paleolithic R1a had to be hunter-gatherers, perhaps of nomadic nature, because of climate and herds of hunting animals movements in the steppe and central Asia. In neolithic, they took on farming from Near East Farmers. The S224 got very successful and multiplied through the farming communities. They could have done that anywhere in Steppe from Ukraine through Kazakhstan, because during Holocene Optimum, 6-5 kyBP it was warmer and moister than today, and existence of cities and towns (4 k y old) and farming communities are attested in the Steppe.
After the split, S224 went into N-C Europe as Corded Ware culture and developed Z282 subclade. They kept on farming till today, because Europe never dried up, unlike the Steppe.
Z93 most likely developed in Kazakhstan also in farming communities around 4,000BP. When steppes started to dry they shifted to herders-nomads, became very mobile, because of horses, and moved to South Asia, when pushed by cooling climate in the steppe.

Most likely development, spread and success of some clades comes with major technological and historical events:
S224 - could have become successful when R1a switched to farming. Might indicate the R1a switch to farming. S224 as a farmer's subclade multiplied much faster than other R1a hunter-gatherer's clades.
Z93 - might indicate switch of R1a to herding. Could have been the subclade of first family who took on herding. When farming collapsed in the steppe many R1a farming subclades died out together with it. Only once who switched to herding or hybrid farming/herding survived.

Goga
28-03-14, 19:13
The problem with your idea for an Iranian plateau origin is that it does not add up with the "tree" of R1a:

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a-tree.gif
One of the oldest branches of R1a to splinter off is L664, which is found in northwestern Europe. In my opinion, its more plausible that R1a was located in the North European plain, and spread westward from there, and the expansion into Central and South Asia happened only with the Indo-European expansion. As LeBrok noted, Z93 definitely seems to match up very well with the Indo-Iranic branch of Indo-European.This is not only my idea, but an idea of the true scientists that wrote this paper. By true scientist I do mean actually professionals who went to the university and get high education and training on this topic.
You’re talking about L664, but what about the oldest clades? This paper is about the ORIGIN of R1a. The R1a clade to which I do belong is SRY1532.2 NEGATIVE! It doesn't belong to any known subclades of R1a1. It's older than L664, so the OLDEST branches of earliest R1a you can find mostly in West Asia (Kurdistan Zagros Mountains).

http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2013/10/r1a-discovered-among-yezidi-kurd.html (http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2013/10/r1a-discovered-among-yezidi-kurd.html)

Goga
28-03-14, 19:22
Also, how do you think R1a ended up in Europe at the first place? Out of the blue? It came from the East and most likely from the same place where R1b was evolved. It's possible that there were 2 separate R1a waves from West Asian into Europe. First wave via the Balkans and second wave via Northern Caucasus or Central Asia. If you’re open minded in TRUE science and don’t stuck up in (and blinded by) wishful thinking there’re many explanations for this.

Angela
28-03-14, 19:31
The problem with your idea for an Iranian plateau origin is that it does not add up with the "tree" of R1a:

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a-tree.gif
One of the oldest branches of R1a to splinter off is L664, which is found in northwestern Europe. In my opinion, its more plausible that R1a was located in the North European plain, and spread westward from there, and the expansion into Central and South Asia happened only with the Indo-European expansion. As LeBrok noted, Z93 definitely seems to match up very well with the Indo-Iranic branch of Indo-European.



Kurdish is an Indo-European language, part of the Indo-Iranic languages, part of the Iranic languages. The reason I personally think that the term "Aryan" is awful because depending on the context (and also the time the literature is written) it can variably mean "Indo-European" (esp. late 19th century literature, this is also where the Nazis stole their usage of the word, even though in German language literature the term "Indogermanisch" - 'Indo-Germanic' was overwhelmingly used stead), "Indo-Iranic", "Iranic" or "Indic". With regard for the Kurdish language, every one of these definitions except the last one (Indic) applies to it.

What part, exactly, is Goga's idea, as opposed to the ideas of the paper?

Perhaps I'm the only one who is getting confused here, but, if only for my benefit, could we clarify a few things?



" CONCLUSION
Our phylogeographic data lead us to conclude that the initial episodes of R1a-M420 diversification occurred in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey, and we estimate that diversification downstream of 417/Page7 occurred ~5800 years ago. This suggests the possibility that R1a lineages accompanied demic expansions initiated during the Copper, Bronze, and Iron ages, partially replacing previous Y-chromosome strata, an interpretation consistent with albeit limited ancient DNA evidence. "


http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/pdf/ejhg201450a.pdf

So, the authors are saying that R1a arose in or near the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey? I apologize in advance if this is a stupid question, as I'm not an R1a expert, nor a yDNA expert in general. I also haven't combed through the data for myself yet, although I will. So, what date does the paper give for that initial diversification? If you disagree with it, why and what date would you propose? Do you disagree with the location they propose?

Then, according to the paper, about 4,000 B.C. or B.C.E, i.e. Before the Common Era, or about 6,000 years ago, is the date for the diversification downstream of 417, and according to them, this suggests that these R1a lineages below 417 accompanied the demic expansions that began in the Copper Age. That seems pretty reasonable to me from a first analysis. Do the authors propose that the 417 mutation coalesced in that same area? And spread from there? And that therefore these Copper Age expansions and the Indo-European languages with which many associate them also spread from there?

Oh, and would this growth not correlate with the date for the adoption by this lineage of the Neolithic package, and the metallurgy that had already developed in the greater Middle East. If anyone has any data for the dates for the adoption of agriculture in and around Iran, that would be helpful too.

As for speculations on another thread, I am not at all convinced that this had anything to do with the Pottery Neolithic, or at least, let me say, I don't see any evidence for it.

Goga
28-03-14, 20:02
Then, according to the paper, about 4,000 B.C. or B.C.E, i.e. Before the Common Era, or about 6,000 years ago, is the date for the diversification downstream of 417, and according to them, this suggests that these R1a lineages below 417 accompanied the demic expansions that began in the Copper Age. That seems pretty reasonable to me from a first analysis. Do the authors propose that the 417 mutation coalesced in that same area? And spread from there? And that therefore these Copper Age expansions and the Indo-European languages with which many associate them also spread from there?
In the paper they do write something about the Indus Valley civilization.

Mayko people that Indo-Europized the Yamna Horzion came from the Western parts of the Iranian Plateau. Like R1b! With other words, R1a came from the same area as R1b.
At the SAME time when people migrated from the Iranian Plateau into the Northern Caucasus the migration occurred from the Western parts of the Iranian plateau into the Indus Valley.
So R1a that migrated from the Zagros into Maykop became Z283 and R1a that migrated into the Indus Valley were ancestors of Z93.
R1a that later became known as L664 could have been entering Europe a little bit earlier via the Balkans.

Taranis
28-03-14, 20:17
In the paper they do write something about the Indus Valley civilization.

Mayko people that Indo-Europized the Yamna Horzion came from the Western parts of the Iranian Plateau. Like R1b! With other words, R1a came from the same area as R1b.
At the SAME time when people migrated from the Iranian Plateau into the Northern Caucasus the migration occurred from the Western parts of the Iranian plateau into the Indus Valley.
So R1a that migrated from the Zagros into Maykop became Z283 and R1a that migrated into the Indus Valley were ancestors of Z93.
R1a that later became known as L664 could have been entering Europe a little bit earlier via the Balkans.

Actually, I have a question here: I was under the impression that you were in favour of the Anatolian Hypothesis? Have you now changed (considering that you invoke the Indus Valley Civilization here) in favour of the Out-of-India hypothesis? :thinking:

Goga
28-03-14, 20:44
Actually, I have a question here: I was under the impression that you were in favour of the Anatolian Hypothesis? Have you now changed (considering that you invoke the Indus Valley Civilization here) in favour of the Out-of-India hypothesis? :thinking:More in favor of the hypothesis of Gamkrelidze and Ivanov.

The Indus Valley Civilization was like Maykop Civilization a Bronze Age civilization and both civilizations were highly influenced by West Asian Sumer Civilization. Sumer predates all of them! And Maykop Civilization in turn Indo Europized the Yamna Horizon.

There're many parallels between the Maykop and Indus Valley civilizations, like bull and the SUN worshipping. But the first known Sun and bull worshippers were the Sumerians.

Possible migration of S224, ancestral to both Z283 in East Europe and Z93 in SouthCentral Asia!



http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/scad/archivedwebsites/archivedwebsites/The%20Sanskrit%20Web%20Site%20--%20El%20Sitio%20S%A0nscrito%20en%20la%20Web_files/origeuroplangenglish1_files/mapa1ingl.jpeg

Sile
28-03-14, 21:37
More in favor of the hypothesis of Gamkrelidze and Ivanov.

The Indus Valley Civilization was like Maykop Civilization a Bronze Age civilization and both civilizations were highly influenced by West Asian Sumer Civilization. Sumer predates all of them! And Maykop Civilization in turn Indo Europized the Yamna Horizon.

There're many parallels between the Maykop and Indus Valley civilizations, like bull and the SUN worshipping. But the first known Sun and bull worshippers were the Sumerians.

Possible migration of S224, ancestral to both Z283 in East Europe and Z93 in SouthCentral Asia!



http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/scad/archivedwebsites/archivedwebsites/The%20Sanskrit%20Web%20Site%20--%20El%20Sitio%20S%A0nscrito%20en%20la%20Web_files/origeuroplangenglish1_files/mapa1ingl.jpeg
so, haplogroup P which was around Tajikstan went to your probable area and became R ...or
R formed from P around tajikstan , went to your probable area and became R1a there .....or
went to your probable after becoming R1a in and around tajikstan

Aberdeen
28-03-14, 21:45
More in favor of the hypothesis of Gamkrelidze and Ivanov.

The Indus Valley Civilization was like Maykop Civilization a Bronze Age civilization and both civilizations were highly influenced by West Asian Sumer Civilization. Sumer predates all of them! And Maykop Civilization in turn Indo Europized the Yamna Horizon.

There're many parallels between the Maykop and Indus Valley civilizations, like bull and the SUN worshipping. But the first known Sun and bull worshippers were the Sumerians.

Possible migration of S224, ancestral to both Z283 in East Europe and Z93 in SouthCentral Asia!



http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/scad/archivedwebsites/archivedwebsites/The%20Sanskrit%20Web%20Site%20--%20El%20Sitio%20S%A0nscrito%20en%20la%20Web_files/origeuroplangenglish1_files/mapa1ingl.jpeg

So, is there any particular reason that the R1a folk migrated to the Russian steppes by going around the Caspian Sea, rather than just going north before turning west? I think going straight north would have been a much shorter route. And what about all the historical and archeological evidence that the Medes and Persians invaded the area that is modern Iran from Central Asia more than two millennia after the time period we're talking about? I personally think the current genetic makeup of Iran tells us nothing much about who was living there 5800 years before present. If you think the later invasions from central Asia were examples of "back migration", perhaps you can show us the ancient DNA evidence to confirm that.

LeBrok
28-03-14, 22:07
" CONCLUSION
Our phylogeographic data lead us to conclude that the initial episodes of R1a-M420 diversification occurred in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey, and we estimate that diversification downstream of 417/Page7 occurred ~5800 years ago. This suggests the possibility that R1a lineages accompanied demic expansions initiated during the Copper, Bronze, and Iron ages, partially replacing previous Y-chromosome strata, an interpretation consistent with albeit limited ancient DNA evidence. "


http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/pdf/ejhg201450a.pdf

So, the authors are saying that R1a arose in or near the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey? I apologize in advance if this is a stupid question, as I'm not an R1a expert, nor a yDNA expert in general. I also haven't combed through the data for myself yet, although I will. So, what date does the paper give for that initial diversification? If you disagree with it, why and what date would you propose? Do you disagree with the location they propose?

Then, according to the paper, about 4,000 B.C. or B.C.E, i.e. Before the Common Era, or about 6,000 years ago, is the date for the diversification downstream of 417, and according to them, this suggests that these R1a lineages below 417 accompanied the demic expansions that began in the Copper Age. That seems pretty reasonable to me from a first analysis. Do the authors propose that the 417 mutation coalesced in that same area? And spread from there? And that therefore these Copper Age expansions and the Indo-European languages with which many associate them also spread from there?


I think R1a (M420) is dated to around 25 thousand years, and M417 at around 15 ky, that's plenty of time to wander up and down Central Asia from North to South, related to climate and location of herds of game animals. In this case it is not surprising to see Iran area as most diverse region of ancient R1a types. However at the end of Ice Age these R1a H-G must have moved to Central and North Asia, otherwise we would have seen more successful R1a involved in Early European Farming.


and we estimate that diversification downstream of 417/Page7 occurred ~5800 years ago. I would claim that it is true for most but except L664, and here is why. There are clues suggesting that separation of subclade which ended up as L664 (the Western European) from M417 had to happen during hunter-gatherer stage from 15 to 6 kya, and not in farmare stage after 5 kya. The earliest L664 is found in Lichtenstein cave (dated at 3,000 BP) in group of I2a2 and one R1b individual. All lineages of Neolithic H-Gs I might add, and no EEF Y DNA. This is late bronze age already, but this group is somehow secluded (in forest?) still mostly hunting, with very very primitive farming if any or mostly herding. They were all very closely related, and still doing something in a cave? Anyway my point is that L664 comes from earlier subclades which had split earlier than S224 (IE?) from M417, therefore none IE.


occurred ~5800 years ago. By this estimate from the paper and by circumstantial evidence, in my mind, it fits beginning of farming and Indo-European culture of S228. I suspect farming could have been brought and taught by J2a people, the early farmers spreading north. Perhaps from successful Cucuteni and Varna cultures (successful farmers and copper and bronze smelting) close by on the Black Sea. I expect it might have been a very long process (2 ky?) of Cucuteni farmers "radiating" their technologies and farming way of life (and genes) to the north and east till it was fully embraced by S228 R1a tribes.
Only after this we see Corded Ware farmers Z282 expanding into Central/North forests of europe with their copper and bronze tools. Perhaps also with new variety of Northern wheat type like Rye?

Sile
28-03-14, 22:13
I think R1a (M420) is dated to around 25 thousand years, and M417 at around 15 ky, that's plenty of time to wander up and down Central Asia from North to South, related to climate and location of herds of game animals. In this case it is not surprising to see Iran area as most diverse region of ancient R1a types. However at the end of Ice Age these R1a H-G must have moved to Central and North Asia, otherwise we would have seen more successful R1a involved in Early European Farming.

I would claim that it is true for most but except L664, and here is why. There are clues suggesting that separation of subclade which ended up as L664 (the Western European) from M417 had to happen during hunter-gatherer stage from 15 to 6 kya, and not in farmare stage after 5 kya. The earliest L664 is found in Lichtenstein cave (dated at 3,000 BP) in group of I2a2 and one R1b individual. All lineages of Neolithic H-Gs I might add, and no EEF Y DNA. This is late bronze age already, but this group is somehow secluded (in forest?) still mostly hunting, with very very primitive farming if any or mostly herding. They were all very closely related, and still doing something in a cave? Anyway my point is that L664 comes from earlier subclades which had split earlier than S224 (IE?) from M417, therefore none IE.

By this estimate from the paper and by circumstantial evidence, in my mind, it fits beginning of farming and Indo-European culture of S228. I suspect farming could have been brought and taught by J2a people, the early farmers spreading north. Perhaps from successful Cucuteni and Varna cultures (successful farmers and copper and bronze smelting) close by on the Black Sea. I expect it might have been a very long process (2 ky?) of Cucuteni farmers "radiating" their technologies and farming way of life (and genes) to the north and east till it was fully embraced by S228 R1a tribes.
Only after this we see Corded Ware farmers Z282 expanding into Central/North forests of europe with their copper and bronze tools. Perhaps also with new variety of Northern wheat type like Rye?

3000BP? .............BP = before present , which means for that number = 1000BC ..............is this what you mean?

Ftdna Y has found IIRC 7 R1a-L664 from lowcountries/british areas recently............it must be far older than the Liechtenstein example

LeBrok
28-03-14, 22:38
3000BP? .............BP = before present , which means for that number = 1000BC ..............is this what you mean?

Ftdna Y has found IIRC 7 R1a-L664 from lowcountries/british areas recently............it must be far older than the Liechtenstein example
Yes it is correct. I previously thought it was from around Corded Ware expansion, but after double checking it turned to be much younger from late bronze age.
https://sites.google.com/site/haplogroupil38/on-the-lichtenstein-cave

MOESAN
29-03-14, 00:26
Also, how do you think R1a ended up in Europe at the first place? Out of the blue? It came from the East and most likely from the same place where R1b was evolved. It's possible that there were 2 separate R1a waves from West Asian into Europe. First wave via the Balkans and second wave via Northern Caucasus or Central Asia. If you’re open minded in TRUE science and don’t stuck up in (and blinded by) wishful thinking there’re many explanations for this.

Goga, I respect you, but I'm tired by all these "racists agenda" or "ethnocentrist something" or ... - when people do not agree with your thoughts they are this kind of racists or nationalists by evidence??? nobody has the right to disagree with you? No offense, I'm not tying to "bash" you at all -
just to say my citizen opinion -
now, concerning surveys, I have my opinion: the first place of developpement of any kind of HG is not always the first place where ONE of its downstreams took off and knew a demographic "boom" (as said Maciamo and others) - when you speak about a possible Balkan trail your can very well be right, but when? the survey speak of a diversification around E NearEastern-Iran and they conclude the subsequent devloppements occurred in close places - it is not the first time that scientists built theories which break down in a puzzle sometimes after (immediate accords in the scientist sphere is not a rule as you ought to know, because reality is not always so simple) - the emigration in central or northeastern Europe could be very old, before the Bronze story - the developpement of the mountains slopes between Iran-Caspian and Hindu Kush could very well have envolved and Y-R1a and Y-J2 - but in northern and western Europe, J2 is very low when we find a lot of Y-R1a or Y-R1b: how to explain this? all of them were coming from Kurdistan?!? and every clade took is route later?
the proof of the caution we need to have is that almost ALL THE OLD FORMS OF Y AND mt DNA of some importance today in Europoids ARE FOUND BETWEEN CAUCASUS, NEAR-EAST AND IRAN to PAKISTAN, but the bearers of a lot of their downstream brothers did come in their today places of domination in AN UNIQUE WAVE through AN UNIQUE WAY, and in their supposed old cradle region, they did not settle the same place at the time neither ...?
that said, let's keep on arguing in a cool way, respecting scientists and hobbyists who can be very accute minded sometimes, more than some diplomed scholars

MOESAN
29-03-14, 00:36
R1a-Z284 seems very scandinavian today but I wonder if it could not be a trace of Corded Ware people coming from Germany?
R1a-M458 checks more a Balto-Slavic proto-population (in fact baltic could be the older form) these clans being the descendants of war-axes Fatyanovo culture (I'm not sure of the name), cousins it is true of the Corded...? I have to look for some thread about R1a in today Germany -
have a good brainstorm night all of you - keep cool and drink fresh! the game is the salt of life, and life is short -

Nobody1
29-03-14, 03:37
The earliest L664 is found in Lichtenstein cave (dated at 3,000 BP) in group of I2a2 and one R1b individual

Eulau (Corded-Ware) was much earlier (~2,600BC) than the Lichtenstein (Urnfield/Unstrut-group) of ~1000-700BC; But i have no idea if the Eulau R1a was L664; Does anybody know or already looked into it?

Haak et al 2008 - Eulau
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/47/18226.full.pdf
http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2008/11/17/0807592105.DCSupplemental/0807592105SI.pdf#nameddest=ST3

Nobody1
29-03-14, 04:11
http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/scad/archivedwebsites/archivedwebsites/The%20Sanskrit%20Web%20Site%20--%20El%20Sitio%20S%A0nscrito%20en%20la%20Web_files/origeuroplangenglish1_files/mapa1ingl.jpeg

This Indo-European migration/expansion model (of the Anatolian hypothesis) does not reflect any of the actual Archaeological complexes and their continuity; And that is largely the problem with the Anatolian hypothesis;

George Erdosy - The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia (1995)
This hypothesis fits the archaeological evidence of the Pontic-Caspian steppes well, exhibiting an unbroken continuity of very similar cultures from the Early Bronze Age to the Iron Age as follows: Pit Grave (Yamnaya) culture c. 3500-2800 B.C. > Hut Grave and Catacomb Grave culture (Gimbutas 1956: 74-89) c. 2800-2000 B.C. > Timber Grave and Andronovo cultures, the former in the Volga steppes in 2000-800 B.C. and the latter in the southern Urals, Kazakhstan, and southern Siberia in 1800-900 B.C. > Early Historic cultures of the Iranian-speaking Scythians (Sakas) from the 8th century B.C.. If the Pit grave culture was still Proto-Indo-European, the Hut Grave and Catacomb Grave culture was probably Proto-Aryan.

Edwin Bryant - The Quest for the Origins of Vedic Culture (Oxford Uni. press / 2003)
http://s30.postimg.org/ruf48fuk1/IE0001.png

So if Underhill et al is correct about the place and date than a trans-Caucasus migration seems the most likely (in correspondence with the Archaeological reality);

LeBrok
29-03-14, 04:34
Eulau (Corded-Ware) was much earlier (~2,600BC) than the Lichtenstein (Urnfield/Unstrut-group) of ~1000-700BC; But i have no idea if the Eulau R1a was L664; Does anybody know or already looked into it?

Haak et al 2008 - Eulau
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/47/18226.full.pdf
http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2008/11/17/0807592105.DCSupplemental/0807592105SI.pdf#nameddest=ST3
Paper says that Y DNA was very degraded to infer anything more than R1a, but "people on the net say" that CTS4385 marker discovered predicts L664.
I have a hunch that these are R1a hunter-gatherers who move to central Europe before IE Corded-Ware farmers.

Silesian
29-03-14, 17:07
Thanks to this paper:
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/ejhg201450ft.html


and nice R1a maps:
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/images/ejhg201450f2.jpg

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/images/ejhg201450f3.jpg



I find it interesting there are no shaded areas in the region of extinct Median language.

Linguist List Status: Extinct


> LINGUIST List Language Search (http://linguistlist.org/forms/langs/find-a-language-or-family.html)

Name: Median Type: Language Code: xme Code Standard: ISO 639-3 Documentation: LINGUIST List Families: Indo-European (Indo-Germanische, Indo-Hittite) Parent Subgroup: Northwest Iranian; Northwest Western Iranian; Northwestern Western Iranian (nwir) (http://multitree.linguistlist.org/codes/nwir) Brief Description: An ancient language of Iran, and the language of the Median Empire. 500 BC - 100 AD.



http://multitree.linguistlist.org/codes/xme

LeBrok
29-03-14, 18:15
I find it interesting there are no shaded areas in the region of extinct Median language.


What do you mean? Map Z93all shows 10% shading in this area.

LeBrok
29-03-14, 18:30
There was also some back migration of R1a into the Iranian Plateau and Kurdistan. The back migration happened mostly with the Parthians and Central Asian Scythians.

True proto-Iranians were an admix between J2a and R1a.

Interestingly, you paternal line of R1a* is very ancient and probably comes from times when R1a was very young and "stationed" in area of Iran and Kurdistan between 20 and 10 thousand years ago (that's what this paper suggests). This thread is more about split of Indo Europeans, cultural diversification and migration of these groups. One of the back migrations around 4,000 BP of R1a was migration of Indo-Iranians, like Medes to Kurdistan from the Steppe, lead by Z93, the much younger clade of R1a, the Indo European people.
What I'm saying is that your R1a* is much older, probably native to the area, and none Indo-European.
It also means that IE Medes didn't replace local population in a substantial way, but conquered them and gave them IE language and culture.

PS. What is your avatar about, Illuminati?

matbir
29-03-14, 19:04
So if Underhill et al is correct about the place and date than a trans-Caucasus migration seems the most likely (in correspondence with the Archaeological reality); Northern-Caucasus road was mentioned in this thread few times, but I thing that this is very unlikely to be road for any population movement. In this study Underhill confirmed that the oldest subclades of R1a are found in near east. The same findings one can find in supplementary info from Myres et al.(2010) (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/suppinfo/ejhg2010146s1.html?url=/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/full/ejhg2010146a.html). From Myres we know that R1a* is found not only in Middle East but also in France (Alpes de Huete-Provence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpes-de-Haute-Provence)) 2/31 and in Southern Italy 1/124. Furthermore the results from R1a1a and Subclades Y-DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=results) suggest that R1a moved from Middle East to Western Europe( Italy, France, Germany, British Isles) and then to its eastern part, where about 5800 YBP it gave birth to majority of modern R1a lineages.
6331
So it looks like the paper pointed the most probable place of origin of R1a-M420 and coalescent time for M417, which matches exactly the time of origin of Indo-European language family according to Kurgan hypothesis. It is not surprising, because its distribution made it the best candidate for spread of I-E languages.

Silesian
29-03-14, 20:17
What do you mean? Map Z93all shows 10% shading in this area.

http://klio.uoregon.edu/maps/gr/archaic/medes-empire.jpg
Compared to R1b in the region it looks quite low, don't you think?

Silesian
29-03-14, 20:21
6331[/ATTACH]
So it looks like the paper pointed the most probable place of origin of R1a-M420 and coalescent time for M417, which matches exactly the time of origin of Indo-European language family according to Kurgan hypothesis. It is not surprising, because its distribution made it the best candidate for spread of I-E languages.

One question I like to pose for the different types of hypothesis'. If I were to give you 1000+/- years and 1000+/- km where would you place the origin of your above statement?

Taranis
29-03-14, 20:37
One problem I would like to point out for the Median Empire: its been over 2500 years since, and many empires were established in the same area centuries later: the first Persian Empire, Alexander's Empire and its successor states, the Parthian and second Persian Empire, the Islamic Umayyad and Abassid Caliphates, the Mongol Empire and Timur's empire. Median rule itself was relatively shortlived compared to some of the later empires (including the first Persian Empire that followed it) that occupied the same area, and half of these (definitely the Islamic conquests of the 7th/8th century, and in particular the Mongol conquests) were accompanied by a massive loss of life. Its enough time and enough history in the meantime to murk genetic traces of any particular ethnic group that ruled that area in the past.

matbir
29-03-14, 20:57
One question I like to pose for the different types of hypothesis'. If I were to give you 1000+/- years and 1000+/- km where would you place the origin of your above statement?
I didn’t put it properly. Origin of R1a has nothing to do with Indoeuropeans, while R1a1a1 ( M417) was probably the haplogroup carried by them. If you are asking about place and time of origin it is middle Volga basin around 5500 YBP. Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis) is basic info.

Silesian
29-03-14, 21:21
I didn’t put it properly. Origin of R1a has nothing to do with Indoeuropeans, while R1a1a1 ( M417) was probably the haplogroup carried by them. If you are asking about place and time of origin it is middle Volga basin around 5500 YBP. Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis) is basic info.

dziękuję


Would you agree that Mede language could be related to some of the languages like in this video? If it is would the carriers of R1a 93 have carried these words from middle of Volga basin region?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuDSzgAkdyo

LeBrok
29-03-14, 22:19
One problem I would like to point out for the Median Empire: its been over 2500 years since, and many empires were established in the same area centuries later: the first Persian Empire, Alexander's Empire and its successor states, the Parthian and second Persian Empire, the Islamic Umayyad and Abassid Caliphates, the Mongol Empire and Timur's empire. Median rule itself was relatively shortlived compared to some of the later empires (including the first Persian Empire that followed it) that occupied the same area, and half of these (definitely the Islamic conquests of the 7th/8th century, and in particular the Mongol conquests) were accompanied by a massive loss of life. Its enough time and enough history in the meantime to murk genetic traces of any particular ethnic group that ruled that area in the past.
I mentioned Medes mainly because Goga is quite preoccupied with them, for known reason. Otherwise we have to look at Indo-Iranian influences over this region spanning good 2,000 years, through various Indo-Iranian rulers and tribes, till Arab and Islam expansion. Long enough time to give substantial genetic imprints, even if only talking about Indo-Iranian Z93 influence.

LeBrok
29-03-14, 22:36
Compared to R1b in the region it looks quite low, don't you think? That's ok, because we are not talking about local population replacement, but only about IE invasion and ruling of this area for over 2,000 years. In this time period the invaders managed to mix about 10% of their Y haplogroup to the local pool. Means more cultural influence than genetic.

I'm not sure about R1b. Some might belong to much earlier R1b tribes movements, and some to IE Hittites? Or maybe it was Z93 people who picked up some R1b tribes and made them the first R1b IEs?

LeBrok
29-03-14, 22:40
So it looks like the paper pointed the most probable place of origin of R1a-M420 and coalescent time for M417, which matches exactly the time of origin of Indo-European language family according to Kurgan hypothesis. It is not surprising, because its distribution made it the best candidate for spread of I-E languages.
It wasn't surprising, but what surprised me the most from this paper and maps how clean the M417 split into subclades Z282 and Z93 without much of "contamination"/mixing. IE: clear European and clear Indo-Iranian parts.

Silesian
29-03-14, 23:48
That's ok, because we are not talking about local population replacement, but only about IE invasion and ruling of this area for over 2,000 years. In this time period the invaders managed to mix about 10% of their Y haplogroup to the local pool. Means more cultural influence than genetic.

I'm not sure about R1b. Some might belong to much earlier R1b tribes movements, and some to IE Hittites? Or maybe it was Z93 people who picked up some R1b tribes and made them the first R1b IEs?

If we conjecture that we are talking about a time frame of roughly 200+/- generations, from the start of the migrations from PIE regions; and we have your theory of an elite leaving behind roughly 10% descendants as in the case Z93 and Medes, in Northwest Iran.

Which branches of R1a [Z-282, Z-284, Z-93 ,M-458, M-558, Z-2125, M780] would you attribute to the spread of Indo-European languages.

Armenians_
Phrygians_
Hittites_
Luwians_
Greek_
Albanian_

LeBrok
30-03-14, 00:54
If we conjecture that we are talking about a time frame of roughly 200+/- generations, from the start of the migrations from PIE regions; and we have your theory of an elite leaving behind roughly 10% descendants as in the case Z93 and Medes, in Northwest Iran.

To be clear Z93 wasn't only haplogroup of Indo-Iranians. There were additional R1a subclades and perhaps substantial J2a, and few other early farmers haplogroups in the mix. However it looks like Z93 was a dominant one, or at least the one we can identify Indo-Iranians with, because it belongs only to them (in origin at least).
So, if Z93 is at 10% level in Iran now, the full Indo-Iranian Y contingent might be around 20%. Also taking under consideration that it took them about 1,000 years to get their, they might have picked up substantial proportions of other haplogroups (turning them into IIs) when they got to Iran. In this case the full impact of Indo Iranians might be at 30% on local/aboriginal Iranian population.
I know there are lots of might and perhaps, but at least I know we have to take many unknowns into consideration too, till the dust settles in the future.




Which branches of R1a [Z-282, Z-284, Z-93 ,M-458, M-558, Z-2125, M780] would you attribute to the spread of Indo-European languages.

Armenians_
Phrygians_
Hittites_
Luwians_
Greek_
Albanian_
Using this graph, Z645-Z647 and anything below it would be IE in origin.
http://www.evpatori.ru/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/R1a1a.jpg

Ricardo
30-03-14, 01:31
There was also some back migration of R1a into the Iranian Plateau and Kurdistan. The back migration happened mostly with the Parthians and Central Asian Scythians.

True proto-Iranians were an admix between J2a and R1a.


Also the Ancient Iranian types of J1 that evolved in that region. I think now with the Y DNA Full Genome sequencing we are going to easily detect the proper SNPs. Some of the basal types of R1a and J1 and J2 and perhaps other haplogroups will be identified with the Ancient Iranian gene pool in the Iranian Plateau. I think R1a1a1 boomed as agriculturalists in places like Eastern Europe and Pakistan-Northern India just like types of R1b expanded with agriculture, metals, lactose and light pigmentation in the Atlantic Western Europe in relatively recent times. The key origin in Iran and Eastern Anatolia will be related to the other haplogroups as I have been saying in the case of a big divide between Iranian types of J1 and Semitic types of J1.

Goga
30-03-14, 01:32
If you think the later invasions from central Asia were examples of "back migration", perhaps you can show us the ancient DNA evidence to confirm that.Because as we can read according to this paper R1a* was born in Kurdistan. In Kurdistan we can find ALL kind of R1a. From the more recent East European TYPES (from Cimmerians??) to recent Central Asian types (from Parthians). So there was a BACK-migration of R1a into Kurdistan! http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2013/10/kurdish-y-dna-part-x.html
.

Goga
30-03-14, 01:35
This Indo-European migration/expansion model (of the Anatolian hypothesis) does not reflect any of the actual Archaeological complexes and their continuity; And that is largely the problem with the Anatolian hypothesis;

George Erdosy - The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia (1995)
This hypothesis fits the archaeological evidence of the Pontic-Caspian steppes well, exhibiting an unbroken continuity of very similar cultures from the Early Bronze Age to the Iron Age as follows: Pit Grave (Yamnaya) culture c. 3500-2800 B.C. > Hut Grave and Catacomb Grave culture (Gimbutas 1956: 74-89) c. 2800-2000 B.C. > Timber Grave and Andronovo cultures, the former in the Volga steppes in 2000-800 B.C. and the latter in the southern Urals, Kazakhstan, and southern Siberia in 1800-900 B.C. > Early Historic cultures of the Iranian-speaking Scythians (Sakas) from the 8th century B.C.. If the Pit grave culture was still Proto-Indo-European, the Hut Grave and Catacomb Grave culture was probably Proto-Aryan.

Edwin Bryant - The Quest for the Origins of Vedic Culture (Oxford Uni. press / 2003)

So if Underhill et al is correct about the place and date than a trans-Caucasus migration seems the most likely (in correspondence with the Archaeological reality);Anatolian model I posted previously can be also considered as a migration of R1a*. R1b took ANOTHER migration through the Caucasus, as we all know. Maykop culture PREDATES ALL Pit Grave (Yamnaya) cultures...

Goga
30-03-14, 01:42
So, is there any particular reason that the R1a folk migrated to the Russian steppes by going around the Caspian Sea, rather than just going north before turning west? I think going straight north would have been a much shorter route. And what about all the historical and archeological evidence that the Medes and Persians invaded the area that is modern Iran from Central Asia more than two millennia after the time period we're talking about? I personally think the current genetic makeup of Iran tells us nothing much about who was living there 5800 years before present. If you think the later invasions from central Asia were examples of "back migration", perhaps you can show us the ancient DNA evidence to confirm that.
It was not an invasion of original the R1a into the Steppes, but an unharmed settlement of Semi Nomads in Central Asia. Also, Medes NEVER invaded Persia or Kurdistan. The Medes INVADED Mesopotamia FROM Kurdistan Zagros Mountains. Homeland of the Medes was Zagros, and from Zagros they INVADED Babylon

Goga
30-03-14, 01:52
One of the back migrations around 4,000 BP of R1a was migration of Indo-Iranians, like Medes to Kurdistan from the Steppe, lead by Z93, the much younger clade of R1a, the Indo European people.
What I'm saying is that your R1a* is much older, probably native to the area, and none Indo-European.
It also means that IE Medes didn't replace local population in a substantial way, but conquered them and gave them IE language and culture.

PS. What is your avatar about, Illuminati?Back migration of likely Parthians from Central Asia. There’s no proof at all that the Medes were from Central Asia! Also, the Parthians didn't replaced the local population of the Medes. The Medes belonged most likely to old types of R1a* from Sumerians, J2a and maybe some other paternal lineages. It's IMPOSSIBLE that the Medes only belonged to just 1 haplogroup! My avatar is a picture of the SUN. As an Yezidi Kurd (religion) I'm a SUN worshipper.
y

Goga
30-03-14, 01:59
I find it interesting there are no shaded areas in the region of extinct Median language.




http://multitree.linguistlist.org/codes/xme Kurds speak a language close to the Avestan. Avestan was close to the Sanscrit (proto-Indic). So we can consider Avestan as a language very close to proto-Iranic (proto-Aryan). Kurdish is one of the 'purest' Iranic languages that are left. Like ALL other ancient Aryan and proto-Aryan languages Kurdish has an ERGATIVE CONSTRUCTION. Avestan was also an ERGATIVE language. The Medes who lived 3000 years ago, spoke most probaly Avestan or an Avestan dialect. Kurdish can be a language of the Medes. According to some ancient Armenian writers Kurdish dialect, Kurmanji, was actually spoken by the ancient Medes. So Kurdish language = Median language.

LeBrok
30-03-14, 02:04
Kurds speak a language close to the Avestan. Avestan was close to the Sanscrit (proto-Indic). So we can consider Avstan as a language very close to proto-Iranic (proto-Aryan). Kurdish is one of the 'purest' Iranic. languages that are left. Like ALL other Aryan and proto-Aryan languages Kurrdish has ERGATIVE CONSTRUCTION. Avestan was also an ERGATIVE language. The Medes who lived 3000 years ago, spoke most probaly Avestan or an Avestan dialect. Kurdish can be a language of the Medes. According to some Armenian writers Kurdish dialect, Kurmanji, was actually spoken by the ancient Medes. So Kurdish language = Median language !
I think you realize that Indo-Iranian language came there from central Asia and wasn't ancestral language of your ancestors who gave you R1a*?

Goga
30-03-14, 02:04
Also the Ancient Iranian types of J1 that evolved in that region. I think now with the Y DNA Full Genome sequencing we are going to easily detect the proper SNPs. Some of the basal types of R1a and J1 and J2 and perhaps other haplogroups will be identified with the Ancient Iranian gene pool in the Iranian Plateau. I think R1a1a1 boomed as agriculturalists in places like Eastern Europe and Pakistan-Northern India just like types of R1b expanded with agriculture, metals, lactose and light pigmentation in the Atlantic Western Europe in relatively recent times. The key origin in Iran and Eastern Anatolia will be related to the other haplogroups as I have been saying in the case of a big divide between Iranian types of J1 and Semitic types of J1.Yeah, what you're saying does make sense. Iranic (Kurdish, Ossetian, Persian etc.) J1 is very different from Semitic (Arabian, Assyrian etc.) J1. I'm 100% sure that the ancient Iranians and even proto-Iranians belonged to more than 1 haplogroup. I do also strongly believe that proto-Iranian language was most llike evolved among J2a people!

Goga
30-03-14, 02:07
I think you realize that Indo-Iranian language came there from central Asia and wasn't ancestral language of your ancestors who gave you R1a*?Indo-Iranian (proto-Aryan) and ancient Iranic (Aryan) languages were ERGATIVE languages. Other Indo-European languages are NOT ERGATIVE at all. Ergativity among language of the (proto-)Aryans evolved somewhere on the Iranian Plateau or Caucasus, period! And NOT at places where ERGATIVITY doesn't exist. Also 'my' R1a is actually ancestral to ALL R1a!

Goga
30-03-14, 03:04
so, haplogroup P which was around Tajikstan went to your probable area and became R ...or
R formed from P around tajikstan , went to your probable area and became R1a there .....or
went to your probable after becoming R1a in and around tajikstanR* became firstly R2* and R1*. R1* became later R1a* and R1b*. R1a* evolved at the same place as R1b* evolved. And R1b* was not evolved in Tajikistan, but somewhere on the Iranian Plateau...

LeBrok
30-03-14, 03:27
R* became firstly R2* and R1*. R1* became later R1a* and R1b*. R1a* evolved at the same place as R1b* evolved. And R1b* was not evolved in Tajikistan, but somewhere on the Iranian Plateau...
Wrong. Mal'ta boy 24ya was R and lived in Siberia. Even back then R was spread all over west/central Asia from South to North. We have no clue where R1 was created, most likely anywhere through West/central/south Asia. We can assume that at the end of a day, hunter-gatherers of R1 were roaming freely through all west/central/south Asia. In this case R1a might have happened around Kurdistan as the paper suggest, but R1b might have happened anywhere else R1 ancestor was available through west/center/south Asia.

One thing is certain that R1a and R1b didn't evolve in same place or even close. If it was the case these two haplogroups would have been highly mixed together. As we know that there are many places where R1a is high and R1b is very low, and many places where R1b is very high and R1a is almost non existent. For most of their existence from 20ya till around 7ya they never or almost never met and mixed.

Here is a question, just to make sure if I got your fantazy right:
Are you saying that in this "pure" Kurdistan area and population, J2a and R1a and R1b existed together from beginning, and was always part of indigenous/original population, and that they always spoke, and even were creators, of Indo-Iranian language?

Goga
30-03-14, 03:47
Here is a question, just to make sure if I got your fantazy right:
Are you saying that in this "pure" Kurdistan area and population, J2a and R1a and R1b existed together from beginning, and was always part of indigenous/original population, and that they always spoke, and even were creators, of Indo-Iranian language?
No, maybe R1* evolved somewhere in Central Asia, because there's also R2* in that area.

According to Maciamo R1b evolved somewhere around the modern-day Turkmenistan. He is maybe right! I never claimed that R1b* is from Kurdistan. All the evidences are leading to Turkmenistan (East-SouthEast of the Caspian Sea.)

R1a* can be also from the eastern parts of Iranian Plateau, because Turkmenistan IS partly on the Iranian Plateau. And Turkmenistan is next to Albors and not really that far from the Zagros.

I'm just saying that J2a influenced the creation of the proto-Iranic language. Because there's ERGATIVITY construction among Caucasian languages in North & South Caucasus. According to me ERGATIVITY was part of J2a folks. They both influenced Caucasian and proto-Iranic (Aryan) languages. And J2a is also from Zagros, right?

LeBrok
30-03-14, 04:02
I'm just saying that J2a influenced the creation of the proto-Iranic language. Because there's ERGATIVITY construction among Caucasian languages in North & South Caucasus. According to me ERGATIVITY was part of J2a folks. They both influenced Caucasian and proto-Iranic (Aryan) languages. And J2a is also from Zagros, right?
I have no problem with influencing. Everywhere you look IE was influenced by local substrates with different pronunciations, various grammar, etc.

Silesian
30-03-14, 04:09
No, maybe R1* evolved somewhere in Central Asia, because there's also R2* in that area.

According to Maciamo R1b evolved somewhere around the modern-day Turkmenistan. He is maybe right! I never claimed that R1b* is from Kurdistan. All the evidences are leading to Turkmenistan (East-SouthEast of the Caspian Sea.)

R1a* can be also from the eastern parts of Iranian Plateau, because Turkmenistan IS partly on the Iranian Plateau. And Turkmenistan is next to Albors and not really that far from the Zagros.

I'm just saying that J2a influenced the creation of the proto-Iranic language. Because there's ERGATIVITY construction among Caucasian languages in North & South Caucasus. According to me ERGATIVITY was part of J2a folks. They both influenced Caucasian and proto-Iranic (Aryan) languages. And J2a is also from Zagros, right?


R1b* (that is R1b with no subsequent distinguishing SNP mutations) is extremely rare. The only population yet recorded with a definite significant proportion of R1b* are the Kurds (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd) of southeastern Kazakhstan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan) with 13%.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Myres2010-6) However, more recently, a large study of Y-chromosome variation in Iran, revealed R1b* as high as 4.3% among Persian sub-populations.[17 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-17)



Kurdistan Kurd 1.7 R1b-343*

http://kurdishdna.blogspot.ca/

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/full/ejhg2010146a.html

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252



Haplogroup R1b?
3x R1-M173 (Zaza from Turkey in Nasidze et al., 2005)
4x R1-M173 (Kurmanji from Turkey in Nasidze et al., 2005)
5x R1-M173 (Kurds from Turkmenistan in Nasidze et al., 2005; originally used in Wells et al., 2001)


Haplogroup R1b
2x R1b-M343 (Kurdish village Dogukoy*/Central Anatolia in Gokcumen et al., 2011)
1x R1b-M343 (Iranian Kurds in Grugni et al., 2012)
13x R1b-M343 (Iraqi Kurds in Stenersen et al., 2004; based on Athey's Haplogroup (http://www.hprg.com/hapest5/hapest5a/hapest5.htm)

Goga
30-03-14, 04:13
I have no problem with influencing. Everywhere you look IE was influenced by local substrates with different pronunciations, various grammar, etc.By influencing, I do really mean helping to form a new kind of language (dialect). And since J2a participated in evolution of proto-Iranic (Aryan) language (dialect) this process took place somewhere where there's J2a. Therefore I'm telling you that at LEAST J2a was also part of the proto-Iranic (Aryan) people. And the only 2 places where ANCIENT J2a & R1a coalesced are either Kurdistan Zagros Mountains or SouthCentral Asia. Or somewhere in BETWEEN. And NOT in the Steppes! So the Medes who invaded Babylon came NOT from the Steppes, but from Zagros (Iranian Plateau)! Capisce ???

Goga
30-03-14, 04:43
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252 Thank you VERY much. Especially for this : "J2-M172 is the main Iranian haplogroup (22.5%), almost entirely (92.9%) represented by J2a-M410 sub-clades."

Nobody1
30-03-14, 04:55
Paper says that Y DNA was very degraded to infer anything more than R1a, but "people on the net say" that CTS4385 marker discovered predicts L664.

That would make the sense - great info;
But i really still hope they would attempt more/specific examinations on all those corpses again just for a more clearer picture;


I have a hunch that these are R1a hunter-gatherers who move to central Europe before IE Corded-Ware farmers.

Been a while since i have looked at it but this is an add on to Haak et al 2008 about the Archaeological nature of the (Corded-ware) Eulau site and the Burials;
http://www.academia.edu/649220/The_Eulau_Eulogy_Bioarchaeological_Interpretation_ of_Lethal_Violence_in_Corded_Ware_Multiple_Burials _from_Saxony-Anhalt_Germany

I actually suspect the males (father/sons: R1a) to be the Indo-European wave but the females from a more previous population; The strontium isotope analyses shows the males sedentary of this settlement but the females to be from elsewhere;

'This indicates the practice of exogamy and patrilocality; the females moved to the location of the males, where they had their offspring.'

Nobody1
30-03-14, 05:34
Northern-Caucasus road was mentioned in this thread few times, but I thing that this is very unlikely to be road for any population movement. In this study Underhill confirmed that the oldest subclades of R1a are found in near east. The same findings one can find in supplementary info from Myres et al.(2010) (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/suppinfo/ejhg2010146s1.html?url=/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/full/ejhg2010146a.html). From Myres we know that R1a* is found not only in Middle East but also in France (Alpes de Huete-Provence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpes-de-Haute-Provence)) 2/31 and in Southern Italy 1/124. Furthermore the results from R1a1a and Subclades Y-DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=results) suggest that R1a moved from Middle East to Western Europe( Italy, France, Germany, British Isles) and then to its eastern part, where about 5800 YBP it gave birth to majority of modern R1a lineages.
6331
So it looks like the paper pointed the most probable place of origin of R1a-M420 and coalescent time for M417, which matches exactly the time of origin of Indo-European language family according to Kurgan hypothesis. It is not surprising, because its distribution made it the best candidate for spread of I-E languages.

I do not doubt and def. agree with the study (Underhill et al 2014) that the 'initial episodes of R1a-M420 diversification occurred in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey' and that would also not exclude a trans-Caucasus migration of downstream M417; I havent read the entire study only the snippets and what was provided in post#1 but i agree with Underhill et al 2010 that the Indo-Europeans are def. not the sole source and stock of the R1a distribution;

However as for the route to Europe;
I am sticking to what i said in the other thread and that its always the corpses that do the talking; The first R1a in Europe is (so far) Eulau (Corded-ware) i.e. from the Steppes than there are the corpses of Andronovo>Tagar which are R1a1 and equally (post#27) from the Steppes; No Neolithic corpse from Europe (i.e. via Anatolia/Near East) has yet been tested to be R1a; That is why [for now] i doubt anything other than the North Caucasus route (Steppes/Indo-Europeans) for R1a M417 splits;

But again this will only be very clear when the ultimate tests and results of all the corpses from Yamna/Catacomb (Wilde et al 2014), Eulau (Corded-ware), Andronovo/Tagar and even the Xiaohe (Tarim Basin / 7 R1a1a) will be known; In 2007 Cruciani postulated that E-V13 did not expand into Europe before 5.300 years ago (i.e. 3.300BC) - four years later they found a corps from the Neolithic as far west in Europe as the Avellaner-cave which was E-V13 at ~5.000BC; Its always the corpses that will ultimately reveal the story;

Goga
30-03-14, 05:57
However as for the route to Europe;
I am sticking to what i said in the other thread and that its always the corpses that do the talking; The first R1a in Europe is (so far) Eulau (Corded-ware) i.e. from the Steppes than there are the corpses of Andronovo>Tagar which are R1a1 and equally (post#27) from the Steppes; No Neolithic corpse from Europe (i.e. via Anatolia/Near East) has yet been tested to be R1a; That is why [for now] i doubt anything other than the North Caucasus route (Steppes/Indo-Europeans) for R1a M417 splits
But R1a1 in Andronovo horizon can be from the Iranian Plateau, since R1a* evolved around Iran and Eastern Turkey (Kurdistan). According to this paper this region is the 'urheimat' of R1a*. Like I said, this map is showing exactly the same, that before original R1a* from the Iranian Plateu entered Europe it migrated into the Central Asia first. But on ther side of the mirror, R1b entered Europe via the Caucasus.


http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/scad/archivedwebsites/archivedwebsites/The%20Sanskrit%20Web%20Site%20--%20El%20Sitio%20S%A0nscrito%20en%20la%20Web_files/origeuroplangenglish1_files/mapa1ingl.jpeg

Silesian
30-03-14, 06:07
Thank you VERY much. Especially for this : "J2-M172 is the main Iranian haplogroup (22.5%), almost entirely (92.9%) represented by J2a-M410 sub-clades."

There is not much J2-M172 in Hindu-Kush

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0076748#pone.0 076748.s014

R1b 343* Iran 1-Gilan/Medes? R1b 343* Tajik-2, R1b 343* Uzbek
1 R-M207 in Kyrgyz

Goga
30-03-14, 06:17
There is not much J2-M172 in Hindu-Kush

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0076748#pone.0 076748.s014

R1b 343* Iran 1-Gilan/Medes? R1b 343* Tajik-2, R1b 343* Uzbek
1 R-M207 in KyrgyzYeah R1b 343* can be from The Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC) or Yaz, which are currently located in Turkmenistan. According to some people proto-Iranian was born in BMAC! And that the Medes are from 'YAZ'. It's possible, becasue around BMAC there's lots of J2a (what gave ERGATIVITY construction to Iranic languages) and R1a. If that's true, R1b 343* could be also part of proto-Iranic speakers or original Medes! But R1b 343* could also migrate from SouthWest of the Caspian Sea into 'Yaz or BMAC' later after proto-Iranic was formed.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Indo-Iranian_origins.png

bicicleur
30-03-14, 07:25
Yeah R1b 343* can be from The Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC) or Yaz, which are currently located in Turkmenistan. According to some people proto-Iranian was born in BMAC! And that the Medes are from 'YAZ'. It's possible, becasue around BMAC there's lots of J2a (what gave ERGATIVITY construction to Iranic languages) and R1a. If that's true, R1b 343* could be also part of proto-Iranic speakers or original Medes! But R1b 343* could also migrate from SouthWest of the Caspian Sea into 'Yaz or BMAC' later after proto-Iranic was formed.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Indo-Iranian_origins.png

this doesn't fit , R1b 343 is much older than Andronovo/BMAC

Nobody1
30-03-14, 07:39
But R1a1 in Andronovo horizon can be from the Iranian Plateau, since R1a* evolved around Iran and Eastern Turkey (Kurdistan). According to this paper this region is the 'urheimat' of R1a*. Like I said, this map is showing exactly the same, that before original R1a* from the Iranian Plateu entered Europe it migrated into the Central Asia first. But on ther side of the mirror, R1b entered Europe via the Caucasus.


http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/scad/archivedwebsites/archivedwebsites/The%20Sanskrit%20Web%20Site%20--%20El%20Sitio%20S%A0nscrito%20en%20la%20Web_files/origeuroplangenglish1_files/mapa1ingl.jpeg

That is exactly what i already tried to illustrate on post#27;
There is no Archaeological basis (cultural continuities) for the model on that map i.e. no traces of a migration from the Iranian plateau into the steppes; On the other hand there is plenty of migrations/movements (archaeologically attested) from the steppes expanding into the south and east (with a clear continuity) - post#27;

That the Iranian plateau is the Urheimat of R1a* might def. be true but it would be more helpful to know the exact Urheimat of R1a-M417 and to what R1a the corpses of Yamna/Catacomb/Andronovo and Xiaohe belonged to;

LeBrok
30-03-14, 08:45
That is exactly what i already tried to illustrate on post#27;
There is no Archaeological basis (cultural continuities) for the model on that map i.e. no traces of a migration from the Iranian plateau into the steppes; On the other hand there is plenty of migrations/movements (archaeologically attested) from the steppes expanding into the south and east (with a clear continuity) - post#27;

That the Iranian plateau is the Urheimat of R1a* might def. be true but it would be more helpful to know the exact Urheimat of R1a-M417 and to what R1a the corpses of Yamna/Catacomb/Andronovo and Xiaohe belonged to;
Oh, but this would destroy Goga's philosophy of purity and originality of IE Kurds. He can't accept this, his world would collapse.

LeBrok
30-03-14, 09:01
But R1a1 in Andronovo horizon can be from the Iranian Plateau, since R1a* evolved around Iran and Eastern Turkey (Kurdistan). According to this paper this region is the 'urheimat' of R1a*. Like I said, this map is showing exactly the same, that before original R1a* from the Iranian Plateu entered Europe it migrated into the Central Asia first. But on ther side of the mirror, R1b entered Europe via the Caucasus.


http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/scad/archivedwebsites/archivedwebsites/The%20Sanskrit%20Web%20Site%20--%20El%20Sitio%20S%A0nscrito%20en%20la%20Web_files/origeuroplangenglish1_files/mapa1ingl.jpeg
Nobody here is disputing that R1a originated in the spot shown on this map, it probably did. But it doesn't mean there was anything even resembling of IE or Indo-Iranians, or even proto-proto Indo Europeans culture and language back then. This origin happened about 20 thousand years ago or so. That's about 15 thousand years between first R1a and first glimpse of Indo-Iranians of Andronovo culture (Z93). 15 k years it is a very long time and many things happened that we don't even know. From archeology and written historical records we know that Indo-Iranians came from the steppe and moved to South Asia, Kurdistan included. These IIs from north brought II language and culture to original (non IIs) inhabitants of Kurdistan. Before that there were no Indo-Iranians tribes in South and South/West Asia.

Taranis
30-03-14, 11:55
Indo-Iranian (proto-Aryan) and ancient Iranic (Aryan) languages were ERGATIVE languages. Other Indo-European languages are NOT ERGATIVE at all. Ergativity among language of the (proto-)Aryans evolved somewhere on the Iranian Plateau or Caucasus, period! And NOT at places where ERGATIVITY doesn't exist.

You're completely wrong here. The oldest Indo-Iranian languages that we know, Vedic Sanskrit and Avestan (the language of Zoroastrianism, the ancient religion of Persia), show no signs of ergativity. The split-ergativity that you can find in modern Hindi-Urdu must be late innovation, not an original feature. You're also forgetting about the Nuristani languages (which, as you may know, form a third branch of the Indo-Iranic languages, alongside of Indic and Iranic), which likewise show no sign of ergativity. In my opinion, the Hindukush region is much more suitable than the Iranian plateau for a Proto-Indo-Iranic homeland. You also have the case of the Burushaski language which appears to have had early Indo-European contact.


More in favor of the hypothesis of Gamkrelidze and Ivanov.

The Indus Valley Civilization was like Maykop Civilization a Bronze Age civilization and both civilizations were highly influenced by West Asian Sumer Civilization. Sumer predates all of them! And Maykop Civilization in turn Indo Europized the Yamna Horizon.

There're many parallels between the Maykop and Indus Valley civilizations, like bull and the SUN worshipping. But the first known Sun and bull worshippers were the Sumerians.

Possible migration of S224, ancestral to both Z283 in East Europe and Z93 in SouthCentral Asia!

The problem with Gamkrelidze's and Ivanov's scenario is that they somehow assume that Armenian is particularly representative of Proto-Indo-European whereas in reality there's no particular reason to assume so, on the contrary: Armenian has a Hurro-Urartian substrate (meaning that Hurro-Urartian was one of the languages spoken there before speakers of Proto-Armenian arrived there, and I would also like to point out that the Biblical name "Ararat" is very probably derived from "Urartu"), and there is no evidence for Indo-European/Hurro-Urartian contact in the other branches.

Aside from Whittaker's claims (which are far out, in my opinion), there's no evidence that Proto-Indo-Europeans had early contact with speakers of Sumerian. In my opinion, the only language families that can be safely assumed to have had very early contact with Proto-Indo-European speakers are Kartvelic (ie. Georgian) and Uralic.

Aberdeen
30-03-14, 12:36
Because as we can read according to this paper R1a* was born in Kurdistan. In Kurdistan we can find ALL kind of R1a. From the more recent East European TYPES (from Cimmerians??) to recent Central Asian types (from Parthians). So there was a BACK-migration of R1a into Kurdistan! http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2013/10/kurdish-y-dna-part-x.html
.

The paper mentions a few modern samples of R1a in Turkey and eastern Iran as "proof" that R1a originated in Turkey, but I don't believe that modern samples prove much of anything, given how much people have moved around in that part of the world. But even if that conclusion is correct, the same paper estimates R1a as being about 25,000 years old and the major split as being about 5800 years old. So the original development of R1a has nothing to do with Indo-Europeans and most archeologists who've studied that part of the world estimate the incursion of IE folk from central Asia as happening around 3000-3500 years ago. So clearly the Iranian languages developed to the north. To characterize that as "back migration" takes a considerable stretch of the imagination, IMO.

LeBrok and Nobody1 have already addressed a lot of the problems with your theory, but I'm going to suggest that you include time frames with any claims you make, rather than mashing together different cycles of events that happened thousands of years apart. And I'm sure you've read the theories about the Andronovo cultural horizon as a precurser to the Iranians, and of the 10 remains from that time period that were successfully tested for Y DNA, 9 were R1a. Anyone from Iran and central Asia is a result of thousands of years of mixing, and the archeological record shows the earliest chariots and a lot of metallurgical development happening further north than you want it to be.

Aberdeen
30-03-14, 12:43
It was not an invasion of original the R1a into the Steppes, but an unharmed settlement of Semi Nomads in Central Asia. Also, Medes NEVER invaded Persia or Kurdistan. The Medes INVADED Mesopotamia FROM Kurdistan Zagros Mountains. Homeland of the Medes was Zagros, and from Zagros they INVADED Babylon

What the Medes did during the historic period has nothing to do with their origins. And, as has already been said, the origins of R1a have nothing to do with the origins of Iranic culture, which happened thousands of years later. There weren't any "Semi Nomads" during the Paleolithic. Let's keep the time frame straight.

Alan
30-03-14, 14:15
In my opinion the two most likely places of R1a origin are.

1. Western Asia, between Iran, Transcaucasus ("Eastern Anatolia")/ Northern Mesopotamia. R1a among Kurds for example is not exclusively z93. But also z83 and m420.

2. Between Central and South Asia. Kalash have a high diversity of R* clades but lack R1b.

In those two parts of the world R1a* is pretty diverse. I believe there was a bigger connection between South_Central Asia and the Caucasus as it is nowadays. I sometimes have the feeling that R1a* could have evolved in South_Central Asia and from there moved into West Asia, and frothere further into the Caucasus ultimately into the Steppes.

Alan
30-03-14, 14:27
One problem I would like to point out for the Median Empire: its been over 2500 years since, and many empires were established in the same area centuries later: the first Persian Empire, Alexander's Empire and its successor states, the Parthian and second Persian Empire, the Islamic Umayyad and Abassid Caliphates, the Mongol Empire and Timur's empire. Median rule itself was relatively shortlived compared to some of the later empires (including the first Persian Empire that followed it) that occupied the same area, and half of these (definitely the Islamic conquests of the 7th/8th century, and in particular the Mongol conquests) were accompanied by a massive loss of life. Its enough time and enough history in the meantime to murk genetic traces of any particular ethnic group that ruled that area in the past.

The Parthians were basically the Medes with an early Scythian Elite. There language, culture and historical records suggest this.

Alan
30-03-14, 14:30
That's ok, because we are not talking about local population replacement, but only about IE invasion and ruling of this area for over 2,000 years. In this time period the invaders managed to mix about 10% of their Y haplogroup to the local pool. Means more cultural influence than genetic.

I'm not sure about R1b. Some might belong to much earlier R1b tribes movements, and some to IE Hittites? Or maybe it was Z93 people who picked up some R1b tribes and made them the first R1b IEs?

The Median empire shown in the map, was a confederation which included some other Iranic, Indo European and non Indo European tribes. If the R1a richest places of this world do not exceed 60%, I doubt that Medes were exclusively or predominalty R1a* by any meaning. I see the Medes as a quite mix of R1a, J*, R1b, G2a and likely I.

Silesian
30-03-14, 16:25
Yeah R1b 343* can be from The Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC) or Yaz, which are currently located in Turkmenistan. According to some people proto-Iranian was born in BMAC! And that the Medes are from 'YAZ'. It's possible, becasue around BMAC there's lots of J2a (what gave ERGATIVITY construction to Iranic languages) and R1a. If that's true, R1b 343* could be also part of proto-Iranic speakers or original Medes! But R1b 343* could also migrate from SouthWest of the Caspian Sea into 'Yaz or BMAC' later after proto-Iranic was formed.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Indo-Iranian_origins.png

Very possible. About what time frame would you actually put the split between Median language and Avestan.


Median is only attested by numerous loanwords in Old Persian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Persian). Nothing is known of its grammar, "but it shares important phonological (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonology) isoglosses (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isogloss) with Avestan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avestan), rather than Old Persian." "Under the Median rule [...] Median must to some extent have been the official Iranian language in western Iran.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_language#cite_note-Skjaervoe-4)

How many generations if calculated a generation at @30+/- years?
Conjecturing the whole invasion and spread of PIE was in the neighborhood of 200+/- generations.

Very interesting video and a good challenge to the Russian invasion theory. No chariots and no account of invasion in Vedict according to Nicholas Kazanas challenge to Kurgan. Also how do you explain the similarities of these invaders taking the religion/gods/myths like Aruna and Varuna by two distinct separate invading I.E. groups one ended up in Hittite, and one in Vedic, from Kurgan or Volga region?


In Vedic religion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Vedic_religion), Varuna (Sanskrit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit) Varuṇa वरुण, Malay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malay_language): Baruna) or Waruna, is a god of the water (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water) and of the celestial ocean (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_ocean), as well as a god of law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law) of the underwater (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater) world. A Makara (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makara_%28Hindu_mythology%29) is his mount. In Hindu mythology (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_mythology), Varuna continued to be considered the god (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deva_%28Hinduism%29) of all forms of the water element (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ap_%28water%29), particularly the oceans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean).


Aruna is a sea god (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_god) in Hittite mythology (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_mythology), a son of the healing and magic goddess (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goddess) Kamrusepa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamrusepa).[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_sea_god#cite_note-isbn0-87395-062-3-1) Aruna is also the Hittite word for "sea", and like Kamrusepa may also refer to the god of the sea.


Any comments?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXSDcHR5WZA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsqMWj0WFKc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXSDcHR5WZA)

Goga
30-03-14, 18:30
You're completely wrong here. The oldest Indo-Iranian languages that we know, Vedic Sanskrit and Avestan (the language of Zoroastrianism, the ancient religion of Persia), show no signs of ergativity. The split-ergativity that you can find in modern Hindi-Urdu must be late innovation, not an original feature. You're also forgetting about the Nuristani languages (which, as you may know, form a third branch of the Indo-Iranic languages, alongside of Indic and Iranic), which likewise show no sign of ergativity. In my opinion, the Hindukush region is much more suitable than the Iranian plateau for a Proto-Indo-Iranic homeland. You also have the case of the Burushaski language which appears to have had early Indo-European contact.Wrong, wrong and wrong! Avestan was a language of Zoroastians and the Medes. Zoroastrianism was a state religion of the Medes. Zoroastrian books were written in Avestan. There is an ergativity in Avestan AND Sanscrit! Everything about the origin of the Indo-Iranian ergative construction you can find here!
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/40848796?uid=3738736&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21103765110727

Goga
30-03-14, 18:33
Oh, but this would destroy Goga's philosophy of purity and originality of IE Kurds. He can't accept this, his world would collapse.This paper and the fact they found out that Yamna folks were dark skinned destroy every philosophy of wannabe NEO-Nazi Polish wannabe Aryans. It seems that only Polish people and some people of India just can't accept the fact that they have nothing to do with the ancient Aryans. Polish people are Slavic, and NOT Iranic nor Indo-Aryan, for GOD sake!

LeBrok
30-03-14, 18:45
This paper and the fact they found out that Yamna folks were dark skinned destroy every philosophy of wannabe NEO-Nazi Polish wannabe Aryans. It seems that only Polish people and some people of India just can't accept the fact that they have nothing to do with the ancient Aryans. Polish people are Slavic, and NOT Iranic nor Indo-Aryan, for GOD sake!
Keep the insults coming, and give me a reason to ban you again, this time for ever.

Sile
30-03-14, 20:06
By influencing, I do really mean helping to form a new kind of language (dialect). And since J2a participated in evolution of proto-Iranic (Aryan) language (dialect) this process took place somewhere where there's J2a. Therefore I'm telling you that at LEAST J2a was also part of the proto-Iranic (Aryan) people. And the only 2 places where ANCIENT J2a & R1a coalesced are either Kurdistan Zagros Mountains or SouthCentral Asia. Or somewhere in BETWEEN. And NOT in the Steppes! So the Medes who invaded Babylon came NOT from the Steppes, but from Zagros (Iranian Plateau)! Capisce ???

according to Medes, their origins are from Qazvin ( basically northern Iran )
Armenians are from Lake Van ( if anyone is interested )

Silesian
30-03-14, 22:37
according to Medes, their origins are from Qazvin ( basically northern Iran )
Armenians are from Lake Van ( if anyone is interested )

Armenian is a I.E language in its own branch perhaps with links to Phrygian. They have almost no R1a or very little. What I would really like to see is some archeological evidence of this R1a invasion and conquest. For example, if chariots exist in Kurgan or Volga or wherever, is there a record of these ancient warriors leaving them in any archeological context?. Have any of these battle chariots with similar construction, been found in archeological sites like Hittites, Armenia ancient Kurdish regions, or areas known as Mede; or even in Hindu/Kush-Northern India?

Relief of early war wagons on the Standard of Ur (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_of_Ur), c. 2500 BC

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/Standard_of_Ur_-_War.jpg



Indo-Iranian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranians) migration onto the Iranian plateau (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_plateau) and onto the Indian subcontinent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_subcontinent) propagates the use of the chariot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot). Chariot warfare and population movements lead to violent changes at the center of the millennium, a new order emerges with Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece) dominance of the Aegean (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_Sea) and the rise of the Hittite Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_Empire).


Mallory (as cited in Bryant 2001 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration#CITEREFBryant2001):216) admits the extraordinary difficulty of making a case for expansions from Andronovo to northern India, and that attempts to link the Indo-Aryans to such sites as the Beshkent and Vakhsh cultures "only gets the Indo-Iranian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranians) to Central Asia, but not as far as the seats of the Medes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes), Persians or Indo-Aryans". However he has also developed the "kulturkugel" model that has the Indo-Iranians taking over BMAC cultural traits but preserving their language and religion while moving into Iran and India.

This must also then include the Kurdish regions.

LeBrok
30-03-14, 23:41
Armenian is a I.E language in its own branch perhaps with links to Phrygian. They have almost no R1a or very little. What I would really like to see is some archeological evidence of this R1a invasion and conquest. For example, if chariots exist in Kurgan or Volga or wherever, is there a record of these ancient warriors leaving them in any archeological context?. Have any of these battle chariots with similar construction, been found in archeological sites like Hittites, Armenia ancient Kurdish regions, or areas known as Mede; or even in Hindu/Kush-Northern India?

Relief of early war wagons on the Standard of Ur (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_of_Ur), c. 2500 BC

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/Standard_of_Ur_-_War.jpg

This must also then include the Kurdish regions.
I think these are so called War Wagons. When I look at tails of these "horses" they remind me of a donkey tail. They might be heavy war wagons meant to break enemy lines perhaps. Still formidable war machines, but they are not chariots.

Chariots are very light and fast:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/Hittite_Chariot.jpg

The wheel is spoked therefore very light. Wagons wheels were full wood and heavy.
One can spot some technological development and improvements over the war wagon.

Having said that I'm still looking for a good explanation why chariots were so formidable weapon as people claim? Why not sit just on a horse and shoot a bow? They will be faster, less expensive and one archer per horse.
Perhaps the composite (small) bow wasn't invented yet and big bows were impossible to shoot from horseback? Although I'm sure American Indians did this trick.

Silesian
31-03-14, 00:05
The wheel is spoked therefore very light. Wagons wheels were full wood and heavy. One can spot some technological development and improvements over the war wagon.
Was this the prime advantage that R1a had in conquest and expansion from Kurgan Volga or was there a different PIE like Goga suggests?


Having said that I'm still looking for a good explanation why chariots were so formidable weapon as people claim? Why not sit just on a horse and shoot a bow? Good point. Perhaps even a horseman with a spear and shield would be a formidable opponent to a charioteer .

Kurds are sometimes associated with mountainous terrain. It seems that it would be a stretch that an invading force of R1a warriors could use a war chariot in some of the regions in ancient Kurdistan/Mede.

http://supportkurds.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/The-Mountains3.jpg

Goga
31-03-14, 00:17
Keep the insults coming, and give me a reason to ban you again, this time for ever.I got a personal attack from you FIRST! I've got the feeling that you are provoking me purposefully. My personal 'philosophy' was never based on 'purity' etc. but on science and only facts.

Alan
31-03-14, 00:22
contrary to some claims, The Medes were not Zoroastrians. When the Median Empire was on it's peak, there wasn't anything called Zoroastrian religion.

Many scientist do also believe that Avesta might simply be a made up language out of Medic with some East Iranic elements which were added, by Zarathustra to reach as much followers as possible. Back than the difference between Medic and Avestan would have been like the difference between British and American English. But this is only one hypothesis.

But what is a matter of fact, is that Zoroastrianism is simply a "modified" version of Mithraism.

Anyone able to understand German and with interest about this subject. should watch this online lecture of Prof. Dr. Kreyenbroek. One of the worlds leading figures in Iranistic studies.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wn623TlM98

We have evidences and historic records that Medes and other Northwestern Iranian groups had a religion which was rather different to that of the Zoroastrians. Zoroastrians even looked down to the West Iranian tribes as "infidels".

In the whole history of Iranic empires there was only one major movement of Aryans into Western Iran and these were the Medes. Persians evolved slightly later out of a fusion from Medes with Elamites. Which is evident by the Old Persian language which belongs to Southwest Iranian branch. The Southwest Iranian branch is the youngest of all and appears like a branch which has evolved out of the Northwest Iranian languages by some linguistic shifts. The only controversial part here is, whether they came from the East or West. Some scientists and even Greek records connect the appearance of the Medes with the disappearance of the Mitanni. Historic records, like that of the Achaemenids call their Urheimat "Umman Manda" and point it to a place between North Mesopotamia and Central Anatolia which corresponds to Mittanni. Some other believe they had "nothing" to do with the Mitanni but came slightly later as a second wave of Iranic migration.
To be honest I am also in favor of the first scenario (the connection to the Mitanni).


The Parthians did not came from "Central Asia" as Goga claimed. The Parthians were by majority native Medes with an early Scythian Elite, called Parni. Which is also evident by historic Roman records.

And also the Parthian language belongs to the Northwestern Group and is generally seen as descend of Medic. Parthians were Medes with additional Scythian admixture.

Goga
31-03-14, 00:38
That is exactly what i already tried to illustrate on post#27;
There is no Archaeological basis (cultural continuities) for the model on that map i.e. no traces of a migration from the Iranian plateau into the steppes; On the other hand there is plenty of migrations/movements (archaeologically attested) from the steppes expanding into the south and east (with a clear continuity) - post#27;

That the Iranian plateau is the Urheimat of R1a* might def. be true but it would be more helpful to know the exact Urheimat of R1a-M417 and to what R1a the corpses of Yamna/Catacomb/Andronovo and Xiaohe belonged to;This theory is old dated and is from the past century and based on the ideology of WW2.
It has been proven that this theory is wrong on many levels. Among the true scientist community this theory is dead a long time ago.
Because it has been proven many times that the kurgan culture from the steppes came from the South. Kurgans in West Asia are older than kurgans in the Steppes.

But where do you think R1a1a1 in Central Asia is from at the first place?
Because according to other scientific paper R1a1 in Afghanistan is NOT form the Pontic Steppes. But this R1a1 in Afghanistan MUST be from somewhere, the only choice left is the Iranian Plateeau. And the most recent paper does agree with that, because it's saying that the original R1a is from the Iranian Plateau.

"The prevailing Y-chromosome lineage inPashtun and Tajik (R1a1a-M17), has the highest observed diversity amongpopulations of the Indus Valley [46]. R1a1a-M17 diversity declines toward thePontic-Caspian steppe where the mid-Holocene R1a1a7-M458 sublineage is dominant[46]. R1a1a7-M458 was absent in Afghanistan, suggesting that R1a1a-M17 does notsupport, as previously thought [47], expansions from the Pontic Steppe [3],bringing the Indo-European languages to Central Asia and India."


http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0034288 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0034288)


How manytrue scientific evidences does someone need, before accepting the reality???

Aberdeen
31-03-14, 00:45
I think these are so called War Wagons. When I look at tails of these "horses" they remind me of a donkey tail. They might be heavy war wagons meant to break enemy lines perhaps. Still formidable war machines, but they are not chariots.

Chariots are very light and fast:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/Hittite_Chariot.jpg

The wheel is spoked therefore very light. Wagons wheels were full wood and heavy.
One can spot some technological development and improvements over the war wagon.

Having said that I'm still looking for a good explanation why chariots were so formidable weapon as people claim? Why not sit just on a horse and shoot a bow? They will be faster, less expensive and one archer per horse.
Perhaps the composite (small) bow wasn't invented yet and big bows were impossible to shoot from horseback? Although I'm sure American Indians did this trick.

I don't know about Iranian or Egyptian chariots, but I do know that Celtic chariots of a later period often had scythe blades affixed to the wheels. Can you imagine one of those things managing to break a line of infantry and run amuck? I imagine the number of casualties would be enormous by the standards of the day. And if a group of chariots swung around a group of infantry while archers on the chariots fired into the ranks of the infantry, that would probably be quite effective too. Likely chariots were only effective on open ground, but if I was an infantryman on open ground and saw some chariots coming toward me, and if there was a river or some woods nearby, it would be difficult to resist the temptation to break rank and run for cover.

As for why chariots were better than riders, horsemen weren't an effective fighting force until the stirrup was invented.

Goga
31-03-14, 01:17
Very possible. About what time frame would you actually put the split between Median language and Avestan.


How many generations if calculated a generation at @30+/- years?
Conjecturing the whole invasion and spread of PIE was in the neighborhood of 200+/- generations.

Very interesting video and a good challenge to the Russian invasion theory. No chariots and no account of invasion in Vedict according to Nicholas Kazanas challenge to Kurgan. Also how do you explain the similarities of these invaders taking the religion/gods/myths like Aruna and Varuna by two distinct separate invading I.E. groups one ended up in Hittite, and one in Vedic, from Kurgan or Volga region?


Any comments?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXSDcHR5WZA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsqMWj0WFKc Fascinating, thanks for the video.

The Medes were a pretty modern Iranic people compared to other people. When we're talking about the Medes we can't just ignore the Mitanni people. According to me the Medes were closely related to more ancient proto-Iranic Mitanni people. Hittite predate the Medes but the Hittite lived at the same time as the Mitanni people. The theology of the Hitties was heavily influenced by the Mitanni theology and their Iranic gods they got from the Mitanni.

The language Mitanni spoke was Indo-Iranian (proto-Iranic) and ancestral to the ancient language of the Medes and ancient Persians. There's not much known about what dialect the Medes spoke, because the Medes didn't left any written document. But I think they spoke Avestan or some kind of modified Avestan, not so far from the original proto-Iranic, the language the Mitanni spoke!

Aberdeen
31-03-14, 01:56
This theory is old dated and is from the past century and based on the ideology of WW2.
It has been proven that this theory is wrong on many levels. Among the true scientist community this theory is dead a long time ago.
Because it has been proven many times that the kurgan culture from the steppes came from the South. Kurgans in West Asia are older than kurgans in the Steppes.

..............



Care to cite some sources for that? And what does that have to do with the origins of R1a thousands of years earlier? Please quit jumbling together different time frames.

Nobody1
31-03-14, 02:04
This theory is old dated and is from the past century and based on the ideology of WW2.
It has been proven that this theory is wrong on many levels. Among the true scientist community this theory is dead a long time ago.
Really???

David W. Anthony - The Horse, the Wheel, and Language (2010) - [Princeton Uni.]
I believe with many others that the Proto-Indo-European homeland was located in the steppes north of the Black and Caspian Seas in what is today southern Ukraine and Russia. The case for a steppe homeland is stronger today than in the past partly because of dramatic new archaeological discoveries in the steppes.

Note that it is from 2010 and i can only recommend that you read this great new book; You might also have noticed that the two other sources i provided on post#27 are from 1995 and 2003 hardly the last century or the WWII era; And no one is talking about the Kurgan (archaeological) complex on its own but of the entire cultural/industrial continuity (archaeologically attested) of waves expanding both West and East from the steppes;

I have not seen you provide any info on what archaeological continuity (evidence of migrations) existing from the Iranian-plateau into steppes - i.e. the reverse route; So far your only source was a drawn map with colorful blue arrows on it;

And should i remind you of the Indo-European Scythian and Cimmerian migrations of the later period again? where they came from, what route they took, Nineveh, Saka etc. etc.


But where do you think R1a1a1 in Central Asia is from at the first place?
Because according to other scientific paper R1a1 in Afghanistan is NOT form the Pontic Steppes. But this R1a1 in Afghanistan MUST be from somewhere, the only choice left is the Iranian Plateeau. And the most recent paper does agree with that, because it's saying that the original R1a is from the Iranian Plateau.

"The prevailing Y-chromosome lineage inPashtun and Tajik (R1a1a-M17), has the highest observed diversity amongpopulations of the Indus Valley [46]. R1a1a-M17 diversity declines toward thePontic-Caspian steppe where the mid-Holocene R1a1a7-M458 sublineage is dominant[46]. R1a1a7-M458 was absent in Afghanistan, suggesting that R1a1a-M17 does notsupport, as previously thought [47], expansions from the Pontic Steppe [3],bringing the Indo-European languages to Central Asia and India."

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0034288 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0034288)

How manytrue scientific evidences does someone need, before accepting the reality???
Yes;
And that is exactly what is already being discussed in this thread concerning Underhill et al 2014: West being Z282 (of which M458 is a downstream) and the East being Z93;

I can repeat - i do not doubt but def. agree with Underhill in that 'R1a-M420 diversification occurred in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey' but that does not exclude a trans-Caucasus migration (i.e. into the steppes) of downstream M417 and the splits of Z282 and Z93; And also repeating myself it ultimately all depends on the ancient corpses themselves; Like those from Andronovo/Tagar (already known as R1a) but what their specific clades are in order to really understand the Z93 distribution;

Goga
31-03-14, 02:42
Really???

David W. Anthony - The Horse, the Wheel, and Language (2010) - [Princeton Uni.]
I believe with many others that the Proto-Indo-European homeland was located in the steppes north of the Black and Caspian Seas in what is today southern Ukraine and Russia. The case for a steppe homeland is stronger today than in the past partly because of dramatic new archaeological discoveries in the steppes.

Note that it is from 2010 and i can only recommend that you read this great new book; You might also have noticed that the two other sources i provided on post#27 are from 1995 and 2003 hardly the last century or the WWII era; And no one is talking about the Kurgan (archaeological) complex on its own but of the entire cultural/industrial continuity (archaeologically attested) of waves expanding both West and East from the steppes;

I have not seen you provide any info on what archaeological continuity (evidence of migrations) existing from the Iranian-plateau into steppes - i.e. the reverse route; So far your only source was a drawn map with colorful blue arrows on it;

And should i remind you of the Indo-European Scythian and Cimmerian migrations of the later period again? where they came from, what route they took, Nineveh, Saka etc. etc.It seems that David W. Anthony is some kind of the Messiah of you guys and his book is a bible for you. HAHAHAHA There're many more writers that wrote totally different things of what he wrote. And David W. Anthony is just repeating what Marija Gimbutas said many years before. He doesn't add anything new to the story!


First of all, North of the Caspian Sea is NOT Russia but Kazakhstan. And NorthEast of the Black Sea was actually land of the Adygeans (Maykop), before Russians took it away from them.

Why do you IGNORE the Maykop Culture?
It has been shown and proven MANY times the Maykop culture heavily influenced people in the Steppes. Do I need to show it to you again?
And the people of the Maykop came from the South It has been proven and even the founder of this site believes that there was actually a migration out of West Asia in to the Steppes. Why do you also IGNORE R1b folks? They did actually came from west Asia and migrated into Europe via Northern Caucasus not so long time ago. So there was AT LEAST 1 migration (R1b) from West Asian into the Steppes!


1. Btw, OLDEST Kurgan to date is Göbekli Tepe (in West Asia)!

2. Btw, I don't undrstantwhat you’re saying about Scythians and Cimmerians. What you're saying doesn't make any sense at all. How old are you?? There're lot's of uncentanty around the Cimmerians. Scythians came from the East (Central Asia) before they migrated into the Pontic Caspian Steppes. Scythians were East Iranic people, while Kurds are WEST Iranic peoples...

Goga
31-03-14, 02:59
Yes;
And that is exactly what is already being discussed in this thread concerning Underhill et al 2014: West being Z282 (of which M458 is a downstream) and the East being Z93;

I can repeat - i do not doubt but def. agree with Underhill in that 'R1a-M420 diversification occurred in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey' but that does not exclude a trans-Caucasus migration (i.e. into the steppes) of downstream M417 and the splits of Z282 and Z93; And also repeating myself it ultimately all depends on the ancient corpses themselves; Like those from Andronovo/Tagar (already known as R1a) but what their specific clades are in order to really understand the Z93 distribution;
Where do you think that Z282 in Europe is actually from? From the sky? Underhill et al 2014 is clearly showing that the ancestor of Z282 lived in West Asia.

Goga
31-03-14, 03:05
And what does that have to do with the origins of R1a thousands of years earlier? Please quit jumbling together different time frames.
Why don't you understand it? What makes it so difficult for you? Because daddy of East European R1a lived in (and comes from) West Asia. auDNA of the original R1a* was then most likely partly 'Gedrosia' / partly 'Caucasus'. If R1a spoke language of his daddy that means that his language is also from West Asia. But if R1a spoke language of his mother, that would mean that R1a in Europe has nothing to do with R1a of his father, and also nothing to do with R1b and all other R1* sublclades.

Aberdeen
31-03-14, 03:33
Why don't you understand it? What makes it so difficult for you? Because daddy of East European R1a lived in (and comes from) West Asia. auDNA of the original R1a* was then most likely partly 'Gedrosia' / partly 'Caucasus'. If R1a spoke language of his daddy that means that his language is also from West Asia. But if R1a spoke language of his mother, that would mean that R1a in Europe has nothing to do with R1a of his father, and also nothing to do with R1b and all other R1* sublclades.

So, cite me one modern published author who puts the origins of the Proto-Indo-Europeans in Iran. And explain how that lead to people in countries as far apart as Ireland and India speaking related languages. A few samples of R1a proves nothing when the linguistic and archeological evidence supports a steppe origin for Indo-Europeans. There are problems with explaining exactly how Armenian and Kurdish came into being, but let's remember that Central Asia was predominantly Iranian until the Turks moved in, and that appears to be because Central Asia was the original Iranian homeland.

Silesian
31-03-14, 03:44
The Medes were a pretty modern Iranic people compared to other people. But I think they spoke Avestan or some kind of modified Avestan, not so far from the original proto-Iranic, the language the Mitanni spoke!

Are these entries correct with regards the Medes, Magi, Zoroaster and the Behistun Inscription being the earliest attestation of the term Magi ?

Magi (/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English)ˈ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)m (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)eɪ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)dʒ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)aɪ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English); Latin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) plural of magus; Ancient Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek): μάγος magos; Old Persian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Persian): ���������������� ������� (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%F0%90%8E%B6%F0%90%8E%A6%F0%90%8E%A2%F0%90%8F%81) maguš, Persian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language): مُغ‎ mogh; English (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language) singular magian, mage, magus, magusian, magusaean; Kurdish (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_language): manji) is a term, used since at least the 6th century BC, to denote followers of Zoroastrianism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism) or Zoroaster (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster). The earliest known usage of the word Magi is in the trilingual inscription written by Darius the Great (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darius_the_Great), known as the Behistun Inscription (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behistun_Inscription).

Was Zoroaster from Magi ?

The Avestan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avestan) word 'magâunô', i.e. the religious caste of the Medes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes) into which Zoroaster was born, (see Yasna 33.7:' ýâ sruyê parê magâunô ' = ' so I can be heard beyond Magi '), seems to be the origin of the term.


The Histories is a primary source of information on the early period of the Achaemenid era (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaemenid_Empire) (648–330 BCE), in particular with respect to the role of the Magi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magi). According to Herodotus i.101, the Magi were the sixth tribe of the Medians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes)


Also Arabic sources of the same period and the same region of historical Persia consider Azerbaijan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan_%28Iran%29) as the birthplace of Zarathustra.[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster#cite_note-san-16)


While the land of Media does not figure at all in the Avesta (the westernmost location noted in scripture is Arachosia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arachosia)), the Būndahišn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundahishn), or "Primordial Creation," (20.32 and 24.15) puts Ragha in Media (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes) (medieval Rai (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray,_Iran))


However, in Yasna 59.18, the zaraϑuštrotema, or supreme head of the Zoroastrian priesthood, is said to reside in 'Ragha'. In the 9th- to 12th-century Middle Persian texts of Zoroastrian tradition, this 'Ragha'—along with many other places—appear as locations in Western Iran.

What is your opinion of Shahrastani version ?

Shahrastani (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shahrastani) (1086–1153) an Iranian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_people) writer originally from Shahristān, present-day Turkmenistan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkmenistan), proposed that Zoroaster's father was from Atropatene (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atropatene) (also in Medea) and his mother was from Rey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rey,_Iran). Coming from a reputed scholar of religions, this was a serious blow for the various regions who all claimed that Zoroaster originated from their homelands, some of which then decided that Zoroaster must then have then been buried in their regions or composed his Gathas there or preached there.[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster#cite_note-cf_Boyce_1975_2_26-14)[15 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster#cite_note-cf_Gronke_1993_59_60-15)


When we're talking about the Medes we can't just ignore the Mitanni people. According to me the Medes were closely related to more ancient proto-Iranic Mitanni people. Hittite predate the Medes but the Hittite lived at the same time as the Mitanni people. The theology of the Hitties was heavily influenced by the Mitanni theology and their Iranic gods they got from the Mitanni.

I dont understand, the Hittites and Mitanni according to the Kurgan Volga theory are both suppose to come from the same region why is their religion not the same, their gods not the same their language not identical ?



The language Mitanni spoke was Indo-Iranian (proto-Iranic) and ancestral to the ancient language of the Medes and ancient Persians. There's not much known about what dialect the Medes spoke, because the Medes didn't left any written document.

What is known about Mitanni customs and where were they situated in relation to the Medes?

Goga
31-03-14, 04:20
So, cite me one modern published author who puts the origins of the Proto-Indo-Europeans in Iran. And explain how that lead to people in countries as far apart as Ireland and India speaking related languages. A few samples of R1a proves nothing when the linguistic and archeological evidence supports a steppe origin for Indo-Europeans. There are problems with explaining exactly how Armenian and Kurdish came into being, but let's remember that Central Asia was predominantly Iranian until the Turks moved in, and that appears to be because Central Asia was the original Iranian homeland.Not really Iran, but Kurdistan (West Asia). Are the most recent scientific studies not enough for you, just look at the names ofthe writers. I'm 100% sure that EVERY scientific study in the future will cause every time for some people a micro heart attack!


There's a 'Journal of Indo-European Studies'. They have the most recent articles on Indo-European issues. J P Mallory (the linguist) is the general editor:

http://jies.org/ (http://jies.org/)


Russian ACADEMIC Vyacheslav Vsevolodovich Ivanov is still giving master classes about it!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHT4iXKmYFw

Now YOU are jumbling together different time frames!

At 1 point this was the IRANIC world!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b4/AchaemenidMapBehistunInscription.png/800px-AchaemenidMapBehistunInscription.png


There’re no problems about the Kurdish language. It's very simple. Kurdish is an Iranic language related to all other Iranic languages.

Goga
31-03-14, 04:40
Are these entries correct with regards the Medes, Magi, Zoroaster and the Behistun Inscription being the earliest attestation of the term Magi ?


Was Zoroaster from Magi ?

What is your opinion of Shahrastani version ?The ancient Magiwere a hereditary priesthood of the Medes. The Avestan word for Magi ='magâunô'.

I think that Zoroaster was a Mede and part of their ‘priest’ class called Magi. He came inconflict with other priests (and maybe was exiled to Bactria (Eastern part ofthe Iranian world)).


Some of many Zoroastrian temples in Kurdistan.

Dohuk
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLZLMm_CQAAlsTs.jpg:large


http://www.fravahr.org/IMG/jpg/Takht_e_Soleyman.jpg


This one is VERY old.
http://www.kurdishaspect.com/kurdlocal212.jpg
http://www.kurdishaspect.com/doc822104.html

Aberdeen
31-03-14, 05:03
Not really Iran, but Kurdistan (West Asia). Are the most recent scientific studies not enough for you, just look at the names ofthe writers. I'm 100% sure that EVERY scientific study in the future will cause every time for some people a micro heart attack!


There's a 'Journal of Indo-European Studies'. They have the most recent articles on Indo-European issues. J P Mallory (the linguist) is the general editor:

http://jies.org/ (http://jies.org/)


Russian ACADEMIC Vyacheslav Vsevolodovich Ivanov is still giving master classes about it!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHT4iXKmYFw

Now YOU are jumbling together different time frames!

At 1 point this was the IRANIC world!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b4/AchaemenidMapBehistunInscription.png/800px-AchaemenidMapBehistunInscription.png


There’re no problems about the Kurdish language. It's very simple. Kurdish is an Iranic language related to all other Iranic languages.

Yes, I know there's a Journal of Indo-European Studies. Give me an example of something in it that supports your ideas. Basically, you've got nothing, unless the Russian guy is saying something relevant, but I don't speak or understand Russian. And how am I jumbling together different time frames? The origins of PIE may possibly go back to about 5800 years ago or even earlier, although there are a lot of arguments about that. But even if PIE is that old, that doesn't, of itself, place the origins of PIE in Iran, nor does it prove that the differentiation of R1a began in Iran, both of which ideas you seem to be arguing, while somehow trying to relate that to the origins of R1a itself, which is something that happened long before either the origins of PIE or the differentiation of R1a. The maps convince me that the split between the two subclades probably happened about the time that PIE split into separate European and Indo-Iranic groups and the two subclades can be related to the language split. But there's nothing to place any of those events in Iran during the relevant time frame, except for five R1a samples that the authors think are relevant. I think you need more than that in order to make the case that the differentiation happened in Iran, and if you could prove that, such a conclusion would seem to contradict the match between the two subclades and the split of PIE into different groups, because all the archeological and linguistic evidence puts the origins of PIE on the steppes.

Goga
31-03-14, 05:10
I dont understand, the Hittites and Mitanni according to the Kurgan Volga theory are both suppose to come from the same region why is their religion not the same, their gods not the same their language not identical ?

What is known about Mitanni customs and where were they situated in relation to the Medes?I don’t really know where the Hittites came from but they were not Iranic. At the time of the Hittites and Mitanni, Anatolian Indo-Europeans and Iranic Indo-Europeans were already very different from each other. They didn't come from the same place. I believe that the Hittites were most likely closer to the 'European' Indo-Europeans. That's why I believe that the Hittites belonged more to R1b.

Mitanni were primarily the SUN worshippers too. But the name of some their deities you can also find among the Vedic people. Mithraism comes from Mitanni, who continued the ideas ofthe Sumerian. I do strongly believe (but I have no prove) Sumerians that didn’t migrate into Babylon but stayed in Kurdistan Zagors Mountains became Mitanni. My native Iranian religion the Yezidism comes from Mitanni. The ancient capital of Mitanni is located in Rojava (Syrian Kurdistan).
They were experts in horse training and were involved in developing of very light war chariots influenced by the ancient Sumerians. Also I believe that Mitanni were related to the Kassites who invade Babylon from the Zagros mountains. http://www.ancient.eu.com/Mitanni/ , http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/ranghaya/mitanni.htm .

LeBrok
31-03-14, 05:10
The Medes were a pretty modern Iranic people compared to other people.
I'm sure nobody here knows what the heck you meant by modern? Like technologically advanced, more than their neighbors perhaps?

We know lots about Babylonians, Egyptians, Hittites because they could write. So how modern Medes were when compared to neighbours?

There's not much known about what dialect the Medes spoke, because the Medes didn't left any written document.

Do you see some discrepancies in your logic maybe?

Let me remind you that many people asked you about source of your claims, which you chose to ignore. You want be more believable, please supply some of this science you claim to embrace for finding the truth. Otherwise it is just your hypothesis and admit it is just so.

Nobody1
31-03-14, 05:17
It seems that David W. Anthony is some kind of the Messiah of you guys and his book is a bible for you. HAHAHAHA There're many more writers that wrote totally different things of what he wrote. And David W. Anthony is just repeating what Marija Gimbutas said many years before. He doesn't add anything new to the story!

Why do you IGNORE the Maykop Culture?
It has been shown and proven MANY times the Maykop culture heavily influenced people in the Steppes. Do I need to show it to you again?
And the people of the Maykop came from the South It has been proven and even the founder of this site believes that there was actually a migration out of West Asia in to the Steppes. Why do you also IGNORE R1b folks? They did actually came from west Asia and migrated into Europe via Northern Caucasus not so long time ago. So there was AT LEAST 1 migration (R1b) from West Asian into the Steppes!
You should really read that book and others as well;
It will answer many of your questions (especially about Maykop); And you should def. also read J.P. Mallory; A very good Linguist (not archaeologist like D.W. Anthony) that does not subscribe to any specific Urheimat theory but compiles/looks at all of them (very informative);


2. Btw, I don't undrstantwhat you’re saying about Scythians and Cimmerians. What you're saying doesn't make any sense at all. How old are you?? There're lot's of uncentanty around the Cimmerians. Scythians came from the East (Central Asia) before they migrated into the Pontic Caspian Steppes. Scythians were East Iranic people, while Kurds are WEST Iranic peoples...
I know that you dont understand it you havent in the last two threads either; Scythians and Cimmerians - are Archaeologically and Historically documented no mystery or doubts surround them or their origin; The first mention of Scythians/Cimmerians in WesternAsia/NearEast is during Sargon II by the Sennacherib-letter (late 8th cen BC) in the area of Urartu; And Herodotus (IV/XII) clearly describes how the Scythians entered Media via the Caucasus from the eastern steppes;

Ilya Gershevitch - The Cambridge History of Iran:Vol.II (1985 / Cambridge Uni.)
According to Herodotus account uncontradicted by archaeological data the Scythians, after the Massagetae pushed them out of the trans-Volgan steppes to the west, penetrated into the territory of the Cimmerians and finally appeared in the Near East by moving along the Caspian shore - "having on their right side the Caucasian mountain"

If such migrations occurred in Historical times (and obviously they did) than no need to doubt the Archaeological attested trails from the Eneolithic/Bronze-age;


Where do you think that Z282 in Europe is actually from? From the sky? Underhill et al 2014 is clearly showing that the ancestor of Z282 lived in West Asia.

Not the sky but Indo-Europeans from the steppes; Corded-ware also emerged from the steppes and thats also the earliest R1a (corpses) in Europe;

Aberdeen
31-03-14, 05:29
I don’t really know where the Hittites came from but they were not Iranic. At the time of the Hittites and Mitanni, Anatolian Indo-Europeans and Iranic Indo-Europeans were already very different from each other. They didn't come from the same place. I believe that the Hittites were most likely closer to the 'European' Indo-Europeans. That's why I believe that the Hittites belonged more to R1b.

Mitanni were primarily the SUN worshippers too. But the name of some their deities you can also find among the Vedic people. Mithraism comes from Mitanni, who continued the ideas ofthe Sumerian. I do strongly believe (but I have no prove) Sumerians that didn’tmigrate into Babylon but stayed in Kurdistan Zagors Mountains became Mitanni. Mynative Iranian religion the Yezidism comes from Mitanni. The ancient capital of Mitanni is located in Rojava (Syrian Kurdistan).
They were experts in horse training and were involved in developing of very light war chariots influenced by the ancient Sumerians. Also I believe that Mitanni were related to the Kassites who invade Babylon from the Zagros mountains.

And your scholarly sources for this? Let's not forget that the primarily R1a Andronovo culture had chariots 4000 years ago.

Goga
31-03-14, 05:34
Yes, I know there's a Journal of Indo-European Studies. Give me an example of something in it that supports your ideas. Basically, you've got nothing, unless the Russian guy is saying something relevant, but I don't speak or understand Russian. And how am I jumbling together different time frames? The origins of PIE may possibly go back to about 5800 years ago or even earlier, although there are a lot of arguments about that. But even if PIE is that old, that doesn't, of itself, place the origins of PIE in Iran, nor does it prove that the differentiation of R1a began in Iran, both of which ideas you seem to be arguing, while somehow trying to relate that to the origins of R1a itself, which is something that happened long before either the origins of PIE or the differentiation of R1a. The maps convince me that the split between the two subclades probably happened about the time that PIE split into separate European and Indo-Iranic groups and the two subclades can be related to the language split. But there's nothing to place any of those events in Iran during the relevant time frame, except for five R1a samples that the authors think are relevant. I think you need more than that in order to make the case that the differentiation happened in Iran, and if you could prove that, such a conclusion would seem to contradict the match between the two subclades and the split of PIE into different groups, because all the archeological and linguistic evidence puts the origins of PIE on the steppes. Turkic people conquered Central Asia from the Iranic people very late in history. Thousands of years after the evolution of Iranic people. So, you are jumbling together different time frames!’.

This so called Russian guy IS actually an ACADEMIC and the author of the so called 'Armenian Model'. According to me of all scientist he comes very close to the truth! And I'm not even talking about people like Renfrew or even Mallory who iss till very active and energetic in writing new papers.

Peope like you never expected that R1b came from West Asia. People like you never expectedthis kind of result of this R1a research. People like you never expected that some Yamna Horizon people were dark pigmented etc. All the current EVIDENCES are 100% against your ideas!
And the onlything what I can say is that time will learn. And I’m 100% positive that allthe future scientific articles will cause you a huge heart attack, hahaha.

Silesian
31-03-14, 05:49
I don’t really know where the Hittites came from but they were not Iranic. At the time of the Hittites and Mitanni, Anatolian Indo-Europeans and Iranic Indo-Europeans were already very different from each other. They didn't come from the same place. I believe that the Hittites were most likely closer to the 'European' Indo-Europeans. That's why I believe that the Hittites belonged more to R1b.

Mitanni were primarily the SUN worshippers too. But the name of some their deities you can also find among the Vedic people. Mithraism comes from Mitanni, who continued the ideas ofthe Sumerian. I do strongly believe (but I have no prove) Sumerians that didn’tmigrate into Babylon but stayed in Kurdistan Zagors Mountains became Mitanni. Mynative Iranian religion the Yezidism comes from Mitanni. The ancient capital of Mitanni is located in Rojava (Syrian Kurdistan).
They were experts in horse training and were involved in developing of very light war chariots influenced by the ancient Sumerians. Also I believe that Mitanni were related to the Kassites who invade Babylon from the Zagros mountains.

Have they found any 4000 year old chariots from Andronovo style chariots in Kurdistan region, just 1 would really be great. Otherwise why do people keep bringing Adronovo style 4000 year chariot when none are found among Mitanni/Kurds which developed there own style and there own innovation? Are chariots Andronovo style found in old Indian regions like Hindu Kush? What is known between Hittite innovation in chariots ? Is there a common theme with chariots and R1a invasions? Sorry for so many more questions.


The Hittites (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites) were renowned charioteers. They developed a new chariot design that had lighter wheels, with four spokes rather than eight, and that held three rather than two warriors. It could hold three warriors because the wheel was placed in the middle of the chariot and not at the back as in the Egyptian chariots. Hittite prosperity largely depended on Hittite control of trade routes and natural resources, specifically metals

Horse-drawn chariot carved onto the mandapam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandapam) of Airavateswarar temple, Darasuram (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darasuram), c. 12th century AD (left). The chariot and its wheel (right) are sculpted with fine details


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Horse_drawn_chariot_Darasuram.jpg

Goga
31-03-14, 06:02
I know that you dont understand it you havent in the last two threads either; Scythians and Cimmerians - are Archaeologically and Historically documented no mystery or doubts surround them or their origin; The first mention of Scythians/Cimmerians in WesternAsia/NearEast is during Sargon II by the Sennacherib-letter (late 8th cen BC) in the area of Urartu; And Herodotus (IV/XII) clearly describes how the Scythians entered Media via the Caucasus from the eastern steppes;

Ilya Gershevitch - The Cambridge History of Iran:Vol.II (1985 / Cambridge Uni.)
According to Herodotus account uncontradicted by archaeological data the Scythians, after the Massagetae pushed them out of the trans-Volgan steppes to the west, penetrated into the territory of the Cimmerians and finally appeared in the Near East by moving along the Caspian shore - "having on their right side the Caucasian mountain"

If such migrations occurred in Historical times (and obviously they did) than no need to doubt the Archaeological attested trails from the Eneolithic/Bronze-age;


Not the sky but Indo-Europeans from the steppes; Corded-ware also emerged from the steppes and thats also the earliest R1a (corpses) in Europe;You don’t haveany clues what you’re talking about. Just copy past what other have been sayingand what suit you the best.
Yes, It’spossible some Scythians entered Kurdistan from Northern Caucasus. I do not denythat. Scythians came from Central Asia first! They were NOT native to Pontic CaspianSteppes! And this has nothing to do with the proto-Iranians, the Medes etc.Proto-Iranians lived thousands of years before the Scythians!

And where do youthink R1a1etc. in Central Asia is from?

Goga
31-03-14, 06:09
Have they found any 4000 year old chariots from Andronovo style chariots in Kurdistan region, just 1 would really be great. Otherwise why do people keep bringing Adronovo style 4000 year chariot when none are found among Mitanni/Kurds which developed there own style and there own innovation? Are chariots Andronovo style found in old Indian regions like Hindu Kush? What is known between Hittite innovation in chariots ? Is there a common theme with chariots and R1a invasions? Sorry for so many more questions.I don’t know man. I think you have much more knowledge about his issues than I do.

Goga
31-03-14, 06:17
Let's not forget that the primarily R1a Andronovo culture had chariots 4000 years ago.wiki has some more interesting info on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot According to wiki Sumerian vehicles are MUCH older than Andronovo vehicles and Andronovo culture is 'at least partially derived from the earlier Yamna culture'. In turn Yamna was derived from Maykop. And Maykop from Sumerians / Leyla-Tepe culture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture

Nobody1
31-03-14, 06:25
You don’t haveany clues what you’re talking about. Just copy past what other have been sayingand what suit you the best.
Yes, It’spossible some Scythians entered Kurdistan from Northern Caucasus. I do not denythat. Scythians came from Central Asia first! They were NOT native to Pontic CaspianSteppes! And this has nothing to do with the proto-Iranians, the Medes etc.Proto-Iranians lived thousands of years before the Scythians!

And where do youthink R1a1etc. in Central Asia is from?

Im just highlighting what the scholars are saying i.e. what is based on academic research; If you dont like it than thats not my problem; I know that you are more fond of your self constructed theories and fantasy assumptions but reading a book wouldnt hurt - just an advise;

Goga
31-03-14, 06:32
I'm sure nobody here knows what the heck you meant by modern? Like technologically advanced, more than their neighbors perhaps?

We know lots about Babylonians, Egyptians, Hittites because they could write. So how modern Medes were when compared to neighbours?


Do you see some discrepancies in your logic maybeYou can't understand my (bad) English or maybe you're trying to make me look ridiculous. By modern I mean compared to more ancient Iranic peoples. The Medes lived only 3000 years ago, while people like Mitanni, Kassites and Hittites already existed 3500 years ago. The Medes became known as Medes after the Hittites and Mitanni were gone.

Goga
31-03-14, 06:35
Im just highlighting what the scholars are saying i.e. what is based on academic research; If you dont like it than thats not my problem; I know that you are more fond of your self constructed theories and fantasy assumptions but reading a book wouldnt hurt - just an advise; Just show me where scholars are claiming that the Scythians were native to the Black Sea (or even Pontic-Caspian Sea region and NOT Central Asia? You really don't have any clue what you’re e talking about, hahaha.

LeBrok
31-03-14, 07:10
Have they found any 4000 year old chariots from Andronovo style chariots in Kurdistan region, just 1 would really be great. Otherwise why do people keep bringing Adronovo style 4000 year chariot when none are found among Mitanni/Kurds which developed there own style and there own innovation? Are chariots Andronovo style found in old Indian regions like Hindu Kush? What is known between Hittite innovation in chariots ? Is there a common theme with chariots and R1a invasions? Sorry for so many more questions.



Horse-drawn chariot carved onto the mandapam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandapam) of Airavateswarar temple, Darasuram (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darasuram), c. 12th century AD (left). The chariot and its wheel (right) are sculpted with fine details



Supposedly this is a Nittany chariot:
http://www.specialtyinterests.net/im/assyr_chariot2.jpg
The one I posted before was Hittite.

Here is a nice timeline by Beverley Davis:
2500 bce

The Sumerians of Ur use onagers, controlled with nose rings that often leave them bloody, to pull heavy chariots.

http://www.sino-platonic.org/complete/horses/image007.jpgRoyal Standard of Ur2000 bce

Celts enter Europe with their small, gaited horses; bays and tobianos are common. Their goddess is Epona, who gives her name to the word “pony.” Austurcons, Galacians, and Garranos are descendants of the Celtic pony. (DNA testing has confirmed relationships between the breeds, as well as a relationship between the Sorraia, Konik, and the recreated Tarpan.)
Primitive wagons dating from this time have been found in excellent condition in Armenia. These are the oldest known wagons in the world.
The Elamites first mention a horse people called the Kassites.
The European wild horse is almost extinct.

http://www.sino-platonic.org/complete/horses/image008.jpgCeltic Horsemen in Art1900–1800 bce

Indo-European horsemen arrive in Asia Minor. King Anittas of the Hittites follows and sacks the cities of the indigenous people, including Hattusas, an important Hatti city. Prior to this time there were no domestic horses in Asia Minor, the Middle East, or Africa.

http://www.sino-platonic.org/complete/horses/image009.jpgHittite chariot team from Metropolitan Museum of Art1800 bce

Damascus, Syria, is the center of the trade in donkeys. Large, white riding donkeys and gently gaited donkeys for women are two of the types sold here.

1759 bce

The Hyksos, believed to be from the Phoenician city of Ashkelon (also spelled Ashqelon, classical Ascalon or Askalon), a city on the coastal plain of Palestine, invade and conquer Egypt, introducing the horse and wheel. These are the first horses to enter Africa. They are probably of the Hittite strain, based on the politics and alliances of that time.

http://www.sino-platonic.org/complete/horses/image010.jpgUserhat hunting with red and white chariot horses1750 bce

The Hittite Old Kingdom is founded by Hattusilis I, and Hattusas is his capital. Hittite horses rank among the first horses in the Middle East. Artwork shows that they belong to the same family of horses that gives rise to the Arabian.


http://www.sino-platonic.org/complete/spp177_horses.html

LeBrok
31-03-14, 07:22
I don't know about Iranian or Egyptian chariots, but I do know that Celtic chariots of a later period often had scythe blades affixed to the wheels. Can you imagine one of those things managing to break a line of infantry and run amuck? I imagine the number of casualties would be enormous by the standards of the day. And if a group of chariots swung around a group of infantry while archers on the chariots fired into the ranks of the infantry, that would probably be quite effective too. Likely chariots were only effective on open ground, but if I was an infantryman on open ground and saw some chariots coming toward me, and if there was a river or some woods nearby, it would be difficult to resist the temptation to break rank and run for cover.

As for why chariots were better than riders, horsemen weren't an effective fighting force until the stirrup was invented.

This is Assyrian archer on a horse without the stirrup.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Horse_Archer.gif


In this case we have one archer per one horse. In case of chariots we have two horses pulling 2-3 people, one driver, on with a shield and one archer. One archer on a horse have same firepower as chariot with 3 men and is faster. For the cost of one fully loaded chariot we can furnish 3-4 horse archers. Actually one archer can shoot one horse and the whole expensive chariot is crippled during a battle. I think at the end of a day this was a demise of chariots and they were abandoned as war weapons.
I think they had mostly psychological impact on infantry, especially the ones who saw chariots the first time.

Aberdeen
31-03-14, 07:23
Turkic people conquered Central Asia from the Iranic people very late in history. Thousands of years after the evolution of Iranic people. So, you are jumbling together different time frames!’.

This so called Russian guy IS actually an ACADEMIC and the author of the so called 'Armenian Model'. According to me of all scientist he comes very close to the truth! And I'm not even talking about people like Renfrew or even Mallory who iss till very active and energetic in writing new papers.

Peope like you never expected that R1b came from West Asia. People like you never expectedthis kind of result of this R1a research. People like you never expected that some Yamna Horizon people were dark pigmented etc. All the current EVIDENCES are 100% against your ideas!
And the onlything what I can say is that time will learn. And I’m 100% positive that allthe future scientific articles will cause you a huge heart attack, hahaha.


So, are you deliberately misreading what I said? I said that Central Asia was Iranian for a long time before it was anything else, apparently because Central Asia was the Iranian homeland. How is that jumbling together different time frames?

I still have no idea who that Russian guy is or what he's saying. And what did Renfrew or Mallory say that supports your theories? Provide specific references to publications that are written in English and are publicly available if you want me to take you seriously. I'm beginning to think that you're just doing some weird kind of performance art with all this unsupported argument, and it's not really worth the bother of arguing with you. I realize some people have argued for an Anatolian homeland for the Indo-Europeans, but at this point the evidence pointing to the steppes seems so overwhelming that other theories are no being discarded by the experts.

Aberdeen
31-03-14, 07:25
wiki has some more interesting info on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot According to wiki Sumerian vehicles are MUCH older than Andronovo vehicles and Andronovo culture is 'at least partially derived from the earlier Yamna culture'. In turn Yamna was derived from Maykop. And Maykop from Sumerians / Leyla-Tepe culture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture

Um, about that link? It says this.

"The earliest fully developed true chariots known are from the chariot burials (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot_burial) of the Andronovo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture) (Timber-Grave) sites of the Sintashta-Petrovka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta-Petrovka) Eurasian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian) culture in modern Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) and Kazakhstan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan) from around 2000 BC. This culture is at least partially derived from the earlier Yamna culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamna_culture). It built heavily fortified settlements, engaged in bronze (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age) metallurgy on an industrial scale and practiced complex burial rituals reminiscent of rituals known from the Rigveda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda) and the Avesta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avesta). The Sintashta-Petrovka chariot burials yield the earliest spoke-wheeled true chariots. The Andronovo culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture) over the next few centuries spread across the steppes from the Urals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urals) to the Tien Shan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tien_Shan)."

Alan
31-03-14, 13:31
You can't understand my (bad) English or maybe you're trying to make me look ridiculous. By modern I mean compared to more ancient Iranic peoples. The Medes lived only 3000 years ago, while people like Mitanni, Kassites and Hittites already existed 3500 years ago. The Medes became known as Medes after the Hittites and Mitanni were gone.

You are making yourself look bad. Why are you throwing with harsh words around if anyone does not agree with you. I am not saying your theories are entirely wrong or incorrect but
there are studies for and against the thesis that R1a evolved in Western Asia. So why are you acting like your hypothesis is the best and everyone else is wrong.

Silesian
31-03-14, 14:10
You are making yourself look bad. Why are you throwing with harsh words around if anyone does not agree with you. I am not saying your theories are entirely wrong or incorrect but
there are studies for and against the thesis that R1a evolved in Western Asia. So why are you acting like your hypothesis is the best and everyone else is wrong.

He is not making himself look bad at all. He is being attacked for his belief that the scientific paper on which this thread is based on is correct.


"Owing to the prevalence of basal lineages and the high levels of haplogroup diversities in the region, we find a compelling case for the Middle East, possibly near present-day Iran, as the geographic origin of hg R1a."

He is challenging currently held ideas.Why do some members mock him for having a contrary viewpoint of R1a coming from Europe, but from Western Asia, one in which is provided by science? If you want, attack the paper and the scientists that authored it. Goga is just pointing out what he sees as flaws.

Perhaps it is up to J.P. Mallory to explain his position, 3:50 seconds into his lecture why he " has total distrust" and how he figures the spread happened of R1a, based on his maps and theory in the lecture posted below, with males coming from the West. How Andronovo and those 4000 year old chariots spread east to west Mitanni ? If Tocharians R1a are really Iranians like the second video points out 52:00 domesticated cereals and pigs from steppe lands, or " andronovo" somehow fit with kurgan Volga expansion theories of PIE ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0HCs6PVnzI



(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0HCs6PVnzI)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q_tqVQHwFw

Tocharian also belongs to PIE tree.

http://s22.postimg.org/fuh5hg3td/languages_genes.png

Alan
31-03-14, 14:46
He is not making himself look bad at all. He is being attacked for his belief that the scientific paper on which this thread is based on is correct.



He is challenging currently held ideas.Why do some members mock him for having a contrary viewpoint of R1a coming from Europe, but from Western Asia, one in which is provided by science? If you want, attack the paper and the scientists that authored it. Goga is just pointing out what he sees as flaws.

Perhaps it is up to J.P. Mallory to explain his position, 3:50 seconds into his lecture why he " has total distrust" and how he figures the spread happened of R1a, based on his maps and theory in the lecture posted below, with males coming from the West. How Andronovo and those 4000 year old chariots spread east to west Mitanni ? If Tocharians R1a are really Iranians like the second video points out 52:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0HCs6PVnzI



(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0HCs6PVnzI)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q_tqVQHwFw


As I wrote. I did not criticize him for his views. I clearly wrote I do not see his theory as entirely wrong. The problem is that he is becoming harsher in his tone sometimes almost aggressive. (the thing with Polish people being Slavic and wannabe Aryans etc, and racist nationalism etc. You can't accuse a whole nation of being racist wannabe Aryans because of the view of one person). Not his views are problematic but the way he often presents it, mixed with too much emotions. If he wants his views accepted, he must be able to tolerate other views.

And I repeat I think only two places make sense as place of R1a origin. Either West or South Central Asia.

So no I do not disagree with him on this view but I rather support his view (not entirely though).

By the way, alone the fact that Yamnaya people were on average darker skinned than modern East Europeans, speaks for an rather Southern origin of these people. So considering an European (around Poland) origin of R1a* doesn't make much sense to me. It rather looks like they came from South.

Alan
31-03-14, 15:11
I do not agree with listing Indo Iranian entirely under z93.

I am sure some groups of them had a significant frequency of z283 (in Western Asia/Pontic Caspian Steppes) and m420 too. Beside that there was definitely other major lineages which will be found in the near future. Like R1b, R2a, J2 and J1b, G and I.


For example the ancient Alans were definitely G2a. Even those who moved into Europe. I know that because I have seen some Guy from 23andme who is an Jasz from Hungary and even he is (just like the Ossetians) G2a. More about Jasz

The Jasz people were a nomadic Sarmatian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians) tribe which settled in the medieval Kingdom of Hungary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Hungary) during the 13th century.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasz_people#cite_note-Coene-1) Their name is almost certainly related to that of the Iazyges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iazyges), one of the Sarmatian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatian) Alanic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans) tribes which, along with the Roxolani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roxolani), reached the borders of Dacia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacia) during the late 1st century BC (the city of Iași (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ia%C8%99i) is named for them). Residual elements of these tribes, ancestors of the Jasz people, remained behind in the central North Caucasus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Caucasus), mingling with Caucasian peoples (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples_of_the_Caucasus) to form the present-day Ossetes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetes).

So Ossetians are not "alanified Caucasians" but rather the Alans always lived on the southern shores of Sarmatia in the Northern Caucasus. The Sarmatians were made off several tribes. The Alans must have been G2a with some I and R1b, while the Roxalani R1a*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasz_people

G1 also has a specific Iranic and Caucasian distribution.

Especially among Kurds and Ossetians there is a significant percentage of Haplogroup I too.

Haplogroup J2 is found in all Iranic groups, even those in South_Central Asia.

R1b is particularly significant in Western Iranian groups + Ossetians.

R2a is found in all Indo-Iranian groups.

J1b Has a specific Iranic distribution and is found among Kurds and Northern Iranians.

R1a is found in significant percentage among all Iranian groups expect Ossetians who are more dominant in G2a.

LeBrok
31-03-14, 17:07
He is challenging currently held ideas.Why do some members mock him for having a contrary viewpoint of R1a coming from Europe, but from Western Asia, one in which is provided by science? If you want, attack the paper and the scientists that authored it. Goga is just pointing out what he sees as flaws.

I don't believe you noticed but nobody here argues either R1a started around Iran area or not. This wasn't IE culture and happened 20 thousand years ago. This thread is about Indo European split, to Europeans and Indo-Iranians about 5 thousand years ago (15 thousand years after R1a!) where Z93 were dominant haplogroup, or at least a very good signature and indicator of Indo-Iranians. Notice that the paper sets time of diversification into Z93 and Z282 but not a place. However we can infer the place from archaeological, written and language material and perhaps Z93 spread.

Silesian
31-03-14, 17:49
I do not agree with listing Indo Iranian entirely under z93.

I am sure some groups of them had a significant frequency of z283 (in Western Asia/Pontic Caspian Steppes) and m420 too. Beside that there was definitely other major lineages which will be found in the near future. Like R1b, R2a, J2 and J1b, G and I.


For example the ancient Alans were definitely G2a. Even those who moved into Europe. I know that because I have seen some Guy from 23andme who is an Jasz from Hungary and even he is (just like the Ossetians) G2a. More about Jasz


So Ossetians are not "alanified Caucasians" but rather the Alans always lived on the southern shores of Sarmatia in the Northern Caucasus. The Sarmatians were made off several tribes. The Alans must have been G2a with some I and R1b, while the Roxalani R1a*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasz_people

G1 also has a specific Iranic and Caucasian distribution.

Especially among Kurds and Ossetians there is a significant percentage of Haplogroup I too.

Haplogroup J2 is found in all Iranic groups, even those in South_Central Asia.

R1b is particularly significant in Western Iranian groups + Ossetians.

R2a is found in all Indo-Iranian groups.

J1b Has a specific Iranic distribution and is found among Kurds and Northern Iranians.

R1a is found in significant percentage among all Iranian groups expect Ossetians who are more dominant in G2a.
I don't want to veer of the Iranian R1a theme suggested by this paper. However I have a couple of questions.
Do you believe true the results IJ-M429* were reported to have been observed in the Iranian plateau (Grugni et al. 2012)?
Do you believe true the errors that were made in dating ydna I in Europe ?

I1 is estimated to be 4000 to 5000 years old (the now outdated "15,000 -20,000 years ago in Iberia" information was wrong), and confirmed by the single nucleotide polymorphism, SNP, known as M253 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_%28Y-DNA%29).
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/yDNA_I1

Do you believe true G2a3 has a presence older than both R1a and R1b in Europe?

The oldest skeletons confirmed by ancient DNA (https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/highlight.pl?c=hf&rid=LILNTQMSKOPL&l=english&cat=web&sp=0a16661458bc822248ac447cc907ecf3&ts=MTM5NjI4MDQ4MQ%3D%3D&q=ydna+g2a3&u=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FAncient_ DNA&/file.gz) testing as carrying haplogroup G2a were five found in the Avellaner cave (https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/highlight.pl?c=hf&rid=LILNTQMSKOPL&l=english&cat=web&sp=0a16661458bc822248ac447cc907ecf3&ts=MTM5NjI4MDQ4MQ%3D%3D&q=ydna+g2a3&u=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fw%2Findex.php%3 Ftitle%3DAvellaner_cave%26action%3Dedit%26redlink% 3D1&/file.gz) burial site for farmers in northeastern Spain (https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/highlight.pl?c=hf&rid=LILNTQMSKOPL&l=english&cat=web&sp=0a16661458bc822248ac447cc907ecf3&ts=MTM5NjI4MDQ4MQ%3D%3D&q=ydna+g2a3&u=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSpain&/file.gz) and were dated by radiocarbon dating (https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/highlight.pl?c=hf&rid=LILNTQMSKOPL&l=english&cat=web&sp=0a16661458bc822248ac447cc907ecf3&ts=MTM5NjI4MDQ4MQ%3D%3D&q=ydna+g2a3&u=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FRadiocar bon_dating&/file.gz) to about 7000 years ago.[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/#cite_note-LacanSpain-5) At the Neolithic cemetery of Derenburg Meerenstieg II, north central Germany (https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/highlight.pl?c=hf&rid=LILNTQMSKOPL&l=english&cat=web&sp=0a16661458bc822248ac447cc907ecf3&ts=MTM5NjI4MDQ4MQ%3D%3D&q=ydna+g2a3&u=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FGermany&/file.gz), with burial artifacts belonging to the Linear Pottery culture (https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/highlight.pl?c=hf&rid=LILNTQMSKOPL&l=english&cat=web&sp=0a16661458bc822248ac447cc907ecf3&ts=MTM5NjI4MDQ4MQ%3D%3D&q=ydna+g2a3&u=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FLinear_P ottery_culture&/file.gz), known in German as Linearbandkeramik (LBK). This skeleton could not be dated by radiocarbon dating, but other skeletons there were dated to between 5,100 and 6,100 years old. The most detailed SNP mutation identified was S126 (L30), which defines G2a3[ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/#cite_note-Haak.2C_W._2010-6)
Do you believe true Lurs/Kurds and Ossetians are a related nomadic people with common roots ?

Lurs are a mixture of aboriginal Indo-Iranian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranians) tribes, originating from Central Asia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia). Michael M. Gunter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_M._Gunter) states that they are closely related to the Kurds but that they "apparently began to be distinguished from the Kurds 1,000 years ago." He adds that the Sharafnama (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharafnama) of Sharaf Khan Bidlisi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharaf_Khan_Bidlisi) "mentioned two Lur dynasties among the five Kurdish dynasties that had in the past enjoyed royalty or the highest form of sovereignty or independence."[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurs#cite_note-ku-10) In the Mu'jam Al-Buldan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu%27jam_Al-Buldan) of Yaqut al-Hamawi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaqut_al-Hamawi) mention is made of the Lurs as a Kurdish (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people) tribe living in the mountains between Khuzestan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khuzestan) and Isfahan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isfahan). The term Kurd according to Richard Frye (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Frye) was used for all Iranian nomads (including the population of Luristan as well as tribes in Kuhistan and Baluchis in Kirman) for all nomads, whether they were linguistically connected to the Kurds or not.[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurs#cite_note-12)


Considering their NRY (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-Chromosome) variation, the Lurs are distinguished from other Iranian groups by their relatively elevated frequency of Y-DNA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroup) Haplogroup R1b (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29) (specifically, of subclade R1b1a2a-L23).[13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurs#cite_note-Grugni-13)

Do you believe the Grugni results with regards what they classify as: Zoroastrians

Zoroastrians are the oldest religious community in Iran; in fact the first followers have been the proto-Indo-Iranians. With the Islamic invasions they were persecuted and now exist as a minority in Iran.

R1b1a2* 15.4% Tehran Zoroastians- R1b1a2a* 7.7% Yazd Zoroastrians

Tehran-Rey-Ragha, also the same where the Magi-Kurdish Mangi are from, which some historians connect Zoroaster and or the priests and fire temples ?


An important historical city in the area of modern-day Tehran, now absorbed by it, is known as Rey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rey,_Iran), which is etymologically connected to the Old Persian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Persian) and Avestan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avestan_language) Ragha.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tehran#cite_note-10)

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252

Nobody1
31-03-14, 17:58
Just show me where scholars are claiming that the Scythians were native to the Black Sea (or even Pontic-Caspian Sea region and NOT Central Asia? You really don't have any clue what you’re e talking about, hahaha.

The Indo-European Scythians dwelled in the trans-Volga steppes; And now take a wild guess which cultures (and from where) expanded into the trans-Volga area; I will give you a tip:

George Erdosy - The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia (1995)
This hypothesis fits the archaeological evidence of the Pontic-Caspian steppes well, exhibiting an unbroken continuity of very similar cultures from the Early Bronze Age to the Iron Age as follows: Pit Grave (Yamnaya) culture c. 3500-2800 B.C. > Hut Grave and Catacomb Grave culture (Gimbutas 1956: 74-89) c. 2800-2000 B.C. > Timber Grave and Andronovo cultures, the former in the Volga steppes in 2000-800 B.C. and the latter in the southern Urals, Kazakhstan, and southern Siberia in 1800-900 B.C. > Early Historic cultures of the Iranian-speaking Scythians (Sakas) from the 8th century B.C.. If the Pit grave culture was still Proto-Indo-European, the Hut Grave and Catacomb Grave culture was probably Proto-Aryan.

Which of course was followed by > ''Early Historic cultures of the Iranian-speaking Scythians (Sakas) from the 8th century B.C.'' - who than along with the caspian-pontic Indo-European Cimmerians migrated to the south Caucasus via the Caucasus (Sennacherib-letter/Herodotus etc.);

And another one of your false assumptions is that the Caspian-Pontic steppes were completely isolated;
I want to underscore that no scholar that claimed the Caspian-Pontic as the Urheimat also claimed it was completely isolated and self creating - those are just your fictitious assumptions; In fact there was extensive cultural exchange and contact/influences between the Caspian-Pontic and the SouthCaucasus/NearEast; I would copy and paste some stuff from Philip L. Kohl 'The Making of Bronze Age Eurasia (2007)' but i dont want to over-stress you with academic info again;

Aberdeen
31-03-14, 18:07
I don't believe you noticed but nobody here argues either R1a started around Iran area or not. This wasn't IE culture and happened 20 thousand years ago. This thread is about Indo European split, to Europeans and Indo-Iranians about 5 thousand years ago (15 thousand years after R1a!) where Z93 were dominant haplogroup, or at least a very good signature and indicator of Indo-Iranians. Notice that the paper sets time of diversification into Z93 and Z282 but not a place. However we can infer the place from archaeological, written and language material and perhaps Z93 spread.

Maybe I misunderstood what Goga was saying, but I got the impression he was arguing that both the development of R1a and its split into two major divisions happened in what is now Iran, which is why I pointed out that the two events are widely separated in time so wouldn't necessarily have happened in the same place. As for whether the paper specifies a place for the divergence into two major groups, the abstract does say:

"Based on spatial distributions and diversity patterns within the R1a-M420 clade, particularly rare basal branches detected primarily within Iran and eastern Turkey, we conclude that the initial episodes of haplogroup R1a diversification likely occurred in the vicinity of present-day Iran."

And that's why I said I wouldn't place too much importance on modern clade diversification in predicting where that clade may have been commonly found when the diversification initially occurred. Not when we're talking about diversification that's believed to have started 5800 years before the present.

Aberdeen
31-03-14, 18:12
...........
Do you believe true the errors that were made in dating ydna I in Europe ?

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/yDNA_I1



Haplotype I appears to be ancient in Europe, both as I* and I2. It's specifically I1 that's much more recent than was originally thought.

Silesian
31-03-14, 18:18
Haplotype I appears to be ancient in Europe, both as I* and I2. It's specifically I1 that's much more recent than was originally thought.

I don't want to veer away from the R1a theme in this thread. However just point me to the thread which is dedicated to the language/s this ancient clade spoke and mixed with the in coming Indo-European R1a and R1b. For example are there any loan words that might be recognized as spoken by the ancestors of I* I1, I2 ?

Aberdeen
31-03-14, 18:36
I don't want to veer away from the R1a theme in this thread. However just point me to the thread which is dedicated to the language/s this ancient clade spoke and mixed with the in coming Indo-European R1a and R1b. For example are there any loan words that might be recognized as spoken by the ancestors of I* I1, I2 ?

Haplogroups and subclades don't speak specific languages, as far as I know. Are there specific languages and/or locations that are connected to certain haplogroups and subclades at a particular point in history (such as the time of the IE expansion)? I think that's what we're arguing about with respect to R1a. Haplotype I languages appear to have been wiped out by the IE expansion so we don't know anything for sure about them (unless you believe that the Basques were originally I, despite now mostly being R1b).

Silesian
31-03-14, 19:55
I don't believe you noticed but nobody here argues either R1a started around Iran area or not. This wasn't IE culture and happened 20 thousand years ago. This thread is about Indo European split, to Europeans and Indo-Iranians about 5 thousand years ago (15 thousand years after R1a!) where Z93 were dominant haplogroup, or at least a very good signature and indicator of Indo-Iranians. Notice that the paper sets time of diversification into Z93 and Z282 but not a place. However we can infer the place from archaeological, written and language material and perhaps Z93 spread.

R1a was dormant for 15,000 years, made some technological advancements, and tweaked their chariots from[Siberia-Russia-Poland Kurgan/Volga-Andronovo] into what must have seemed panzer-like vehicles to the poor guy in bare feet farming his crops with his family ? Then proceeded to conquer most of the established world around them, and teach them Indo-European languages? Where are all these chariots ? Are the chariots of similar construction, Mitanni, Andronovo, Kurgan, Volga, Hittite.

We have technology that can now test 20,000 and 60,000 year old dna. One way we can get some clear resolution is to compare Gogas R1a with Ealau Germany R1a, to see where it exactly fit's in time.

n central Europe, Corded Ware (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_Culture) period human remains at Eulau (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eulau&action=edit&redlink=1) from which Y-DNA was extracted appear to be R-M17(xM458) (which they found most similar to the modern German R-M17* haplotype.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-4)

We could also test Kromsdorf Germany R1b M343 and M269 and compare them to Kurdish R1b M343* and Grugni's- Zoroastrian R1b M269 samples.

Lee et al. (May 2012) analysed the ancient DNA of human remains from the Late Neolithic Bell Beaker (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture) site of Kromsdorf (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kromsdorf), Germany identifying two males as belonging to the Y haplogroup R1b.[14]
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-14)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.22074/abstract

Angela
31-03-14, 20:03
I've finally plowed through the supplements and the posts here and on Anthrogenica, and I agree as to the R1a-420 diversification in and around Iran and eastern Turkey. In fact, I think that conclusion could have been predicted even before this study; I think it's been clear for quite a while that both R1a and R1b have a connection to the area around the Caspian.

I also think, if you accept their sort of middle of the road mutation rate, which shows a date of around 4000 B.C.E. for the diversification of M-417, it looks like that and its downstream markers are very good candidates for yDNA lineages that were heavily involved with the spread of "Indo-European" culture.

Then, the question becomes where did this diversification of M-417 and the creation of the "Indo-European" package take place. I don't think that this study provides any definitive answers. However, it's clear that the two main groups below M-417, roughly the Z282 "European" group and the Z93 "Asian" group are widely separated with very little overlap, as if, perhaps, two groups traveled to areas, perhaps niche areas, initially not densely populated, where their technological advances could make an impact.

I think archaeology should point us in the right direction. It has to be someplace where they adopted agriculture, as that would explain their sudden population expansion. It has to be somewhere on or near a "steppe like" environment given the proto-Indo-European lexicon. (This is a map I use for reference for the Eurasian steppe, although I don't know if it's the best one. http://davidderrick.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/eurasian-steppe.gif ) It has to be someplace where they learned metallurgy, and adopted Kurgans.

I don't think the area adjacent to the Balkans makes the most sense given the modern distribution of M417 and particularly of Z93, and other reasons as well. (Much of that R1a is M458 and related markers and is from the much later Slavic expansions) Perhaps that area was initially more R1b?

The area just north of the Caucasus might fit the bill, but, depending on the theory one adopts, it could be either the primary or the secondary area of spread, or it could be the area of spread only for the so called "European" lineages.

Ancient DNA results will be of great help, but not just of the Yamna/Catacomb people, or even the Afanasievo/Andronovo people (did they carry different subclades of R1a?) but also of people to the east and southeast of the Caspian. Just finding out that the steppe groups in the Ukraine were M417 isn't going to resolve the issue in my opinion.

In terms of the archaeology, I'm a great admirer of Dr. Anthony and his book, but he is not the only word on the subject, although the English speaking world might think so, because they don't have the same kind of access to the work of people in other countries.

There is also, as just one example, Stanislav Grigoriev, whose works 'have' been translated into English.
https://islandvera.academia.edu/StanislavGrigoriev

In his on line book on the Indo-Europeans he provides extensive archaeological support for a Near Eastern urheimat that is not quite identical to that of Gamkrelidze and Ivanov, although the analysis to some extent supports their work as well. (Part of the problem with any of these other theories gaining adherents, in my opinion, is that they are written in turgid 'academese', in comparison to the very well written and accessible work of David Anthony.)
https://www.academia.edu/3742220/Ancient_Indo-Europeans._Chelyabinsk_Rifei_2002_496_pp

Or there are papers like this one that posit that the Indo-European homeland might have been more mountainous than precisely "steppe" like.
http://jolr.ru/article.php?id=108

There is also Tservchkov's book from 2012, which I haven't read, but which Mallory claims supports the "Near Eastern" theory.

And even Mallory is honest enough to acknowledge that if there are problems with the other theories about the Indo-European urheimat, there are problems with the Pontic Caspian theory as well. It's only the internet 'authorities' who are so very...well...authoritarian about it, for a myriad of reasons...they, and those for whom this is a career breaker.
http://jolr.ru/article.php?id=112

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On balance, I think there is much that makes sense about a "Near Eastern" urheimat, although it would require incorporating the ideas of several of these scholars, and especially, in my opinion, making sure to posit a 'secondary' homeland north of the Caucasus, However, the Pontic Caspian theory is probably, in my view, still more probable. I think making a final determination is just going to require more data.

It just isn't as clear as some people propose; if it were, all of these eminent specialists wouldn't still be in such disagreement.

Oh, this is the original Gamkrelidze and Ivanov paper.
http://rbedrosian.com/Classic/sciam1.htm

There are a few interesting short papers listed here that are unfortunately only written in Russian. If someone reads it and could give us a brief summary, that would be great...they say summary in English for some of them, but I can't seem to access it for some reason.
http://jolr.ru/publications.php?sort=issue&year=2013&issue=9

Alan
31-03-14, 22:14
I don't want to veer of the Iranian R1a theme suggested by this paper. However I have a couple of questions.
Do you believe true the results IJ-M429* were reported to have been observed in the Iranian plateau (Grugni et al. 2012)?

Why shouldn't the findings of IJ be true? I do believe they are right.


Do you believe true the errors that were made in dating ydna I in Europe ?
Yes I2 is likely older but I1 looks to be relatively young.





Do you believe true G2a3 has a presence older than both R1a and R1b in Europe?

The current data suggest so.


Do you believe true Lurs/Kurds and Ossetians are a related nomadic people with common roots ?

Just a century ago all Lurs were considered Kurds and Lor has only a meaning in Kurdish. But nowadays Lors are divided into two groups because one part of Lurs was linguistically heavily influenced by Persian that it is classified as Southwest Iranian. These Lors are called Bakthiari. They live in Chaharmahal and Bakhtiari Province. Than you have the small Lurs also known as Lak, Feyli their dialect is less influenced and is clustered under the Kurdish branch of Northwestern Iranic and they live in Kermanshah, Ilam, Lorestan and Iraqi Kurdistan. Since Ossetians and Kurds have one linguistic origin, they must have ultimately some genetic relation too.





Do you believe the Grugni results with regards what they classify as: Zoroastrians

I do believe these results. Kurds generally have around 10-15% R1b. The reason why R1b in Kurdistan Turkey is 6% here is because of sample size and that they were taken only from few provinces. For example on 23andme most Kurdish R* are rather on the R1a side while on ftDNA most Kurdish results are rather on the R1b side you can check it out. Also Cinnioglu found over 15% in Southeast Anatolia. The reason why I don't mention East Anatolia is because in Cinnioglu He put together Kurdish East Anatolian provinces with some Turkish majority provinces further North like most of Erzurum, Bayburt and mixed provinces like Ardahan and Kars.


Persian Zoroastrians are dominant in J2 with R1a and R1b beeing also significant. This is even evident in the Parsis which are Zoroastrians who fled to South Asia and mixed with the locals. Yet their dominant Haplogroup is J2.




Tehran-Rey-Ragha, also the same where the Magi-Kurdish Mangi are from, which some historians connect Zoroaster and or the priests and fire temples ?
I repeat again. When the median empire was on it's peak a religion called Zoroastrianism wasn't yet bron. So what were they before there was anything called Zoroastrianism? In the past many scientists made the mistake that they generally tended to connect anything in connection with Fire to Zoroastrians. And they also tended to call any Iranian religion Zoroastrian like using an "umbrella term". But newer studies and well known scientists like Kreyenboerk confirm that Fire and Sun worshipping goes further back to some older rituals and religion. Which he calls the "proto Iranic religion" To which Mithraism is closer to and was the first to split off. Later Zoroastrianism split off Mithraism. Zarathustra was basically a Mithra worshipper who started to invent his own religion with mostly elements of Mithraism.
In no ancient Iranian text will you see the Magi labeled as Zoroastrians.

Nobody1
01-04-14, 10:50
In his on line book on the Indo-Europeans he provides extensive archaeological support for a Near Eastern urheimat that is not quite identical to that of Gamkrelidze and Ivanov, although the analysis to some extent supports their work as well. (Part of the problem with any of these other theories gaining adherents, in my opinion, is that they are written in turgid 'academese', in comparison to the very well written and accessible work of David Anthony.)
https://www.academia.edu/3742220/Ancient_Indo-Europeans._Chelyabinsk_Rifei_2002_496_pp

Actually he doesnt;
Gregoriev only claims that the Sintashta settlements have a Near Eastern origin; And the cultural exchange and contact between the steppes and the Near East (Anatolia/South Caucasus) is well illustrated also by Anthony as well as Kohl and Kristiansen; And whether Anatolian, Near East or Steppes all these scholars agree on a common origin of all Indo-European branches and that is the fundamental point regardless where they locate it; The location ultimately heavily depends on which model is archaeologically attestable for both the West expansion and the East expansion i.e. a continuity for both directions and the steppes are (as also Gregoriev mentions but disagrees with his colleagues) archaeologically the most convincing place for it and linguistically very well possible;

Aberdeen
01-04-14, 16:20
Some of the opponents of the steppe hypothesis are attacking a straw man by assuming that the proponents of the steppe hypothesis are arguing that the Indo-Europeans came out of a prairie vacuum, uninfluenced by surrounding cultures, which is not what advocates of the steppe hypothesis are arguing at all. Now, some of the advocates of the Anatolian hypothesis, I'm not sure what their arguments are because some of them are in fact quite difficult to read. That doesn't mean that their ideas, to the extent that one can understand them, are more valid.

I would say that some popularists, including Anthony, are easy to read not because they over-simplify and not solely because their language is more fluid but in large part because they have a knack for cutting through the bull and creating a cohesive over-view that's easy to understand because it's well thought out on a macro level.

Silesian
01-04-14, 16:36
I repeat again. When the median empire was on it's peak a religion called Zoroastrianism wasn't yet bron. So what were they before there was anything called Zoroastrianism? In the past many scientists made the mistake that they generally tended to connect anything in connection with Fire to Zoroastrians. And they also tended to call any Iranian religion Zoroastrian like using an "umbrella term". But newer studies and well known scientists like Kreyenboerk confirm that Fire and Sun worshipping goes further back to some older rituals and religion. Which he calls the "proto Iranic religion" To which Mithraism is closer to and was the first to split off. Later Zoroastrianism split off Mithraism. Zarathustra was basically a Mithra worshipper who started to invent his own religion with mostly elements of Mithraism.
In no ancient Iranian text will you see the Magi labeled as Zoroastrians.

Thanks, it is interesting to get a viewpoint from someone who is ancestrally related. The reason Zoroastrianism is of interest is their unique sky burials. How did Mithraism religion dispose of their dead? Kurgan now modern day Ukraine and Afanasevo are same, 39:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d864bwyCAoA
However Indians are not like Kurgan, they cremate.
Many examples are in the Bhagavad Gita (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavad_Gita).
Another interesting difference between Ukraine/Kurgan and Indian Harrapan burial, horse, very view, chariots according to Srinivasan Kalyanaraman (http://www.youtube.com/user/kalyan97)· 8:20 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyN0zs_tBRY
I don't really know that much about R1a in India other than R1a-Z93, is it possible it is from PIE Ukraine/Kurgan heimat model Gimbutas:Anthony:Mallory , if so is R1a z-93 found in Ossetians for example?

The Harappan chariot is not quite as I imagined an invading force. Very different from the Hittite chariot. Are there any examples of these chariots in Ukraine/Kurgan PIE model or Afanasievo culture or Mitanni?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/Hittite_Chariot.jpg

Coach driver 2000 B.C.E. Harappa, Indus Valley Civilization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilization)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Coach_driver_Indus_01.jpg

LeBrok
01-04-14, 17:42
Coach driver 2000 B.C.E. Harappa, Indus Valley Civilization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilization)


This one is not a war chariot. This is some perhaps kind of ceremonial chariot pulled by bulls (holly cow), or first Rickshaw?

Try to compare images/technology of Andronovo to Mittani and Hittite war chariots. If out of steppe theory is right (and if they invented war chariots first) we should find older and simpler models in Andronovo and newer and improved (with time going by) in Mittani and Hittite.

Angela
01-04-14, 17:58
[QUOTE]
Actually he doesnt; Gregoriev only claims that the Sintashta settlements have a Near Eastern origin.

Would you prefer detailed, as Professor Mallory puts it?
6336


And whether Anatolian, Near East or Steppes all these scholars agree on a common origin of all Indo-European branches and that is the fundamental point regardless where they locate it;

Of course. Did I ever say or imply otherwise?


The location ultimately heavily depends on which model is archaeologically attestable for both the West expansion and the East expansion i.e. a continuity for both directions and the steppes are (as also Gregoriev mentions but disagrees with his colleagues) archaeologically the most convincing place for it and linguistically very well possible.

Absolutely as to the first part; I'm just not quite as sure about the second part as you are. I would also add that it all has to align with the genetics. And I'll just note that a staging ground north of the Caucasus is perfectly compatible with the Ivanov model. I think I'll stick with Professor Mallory on this one...

6335

There's quite a lot in those 400 plus pages of the Grigoriev book; I really think it's doing him a disservice to reduce it all to one "sound bite".

LeBrok
01-04-14, 18:10
In this case we have one archer per one horse. In case of chariots we have two horses pulling 2-3 people, one driver, on with a shield and one archer. One archer on a horse have same firepower as chariot with 3 men and is faster. For the cost of one fully loaded chariot we can furnish 3-4 horse archers. Actually one archer can shoot one horse and the whole expensive chariot is crippled during a battle. I think at the end of a day this was a demise of chariots and they were abandoned as war weapons.
I think they had mostly psychological impact on infantry, especially the ones who saw chariots the first time.
Continuing this thought. With time all armies got used to chariots and developed technics fighting them. I think there is a description of Alexander using one of technics destroying Darius 3rd chariots. One can always mix few archers into an infantry, making it too dangerous and costly for charioteers to attack such group. Especially well armored and well shielded professional armies of Greeks and Romans.
After Alexander victory over Darius we don't see extensive chariot use anymore. I think Romans exploited them in couple of battles, but generally used them only in races. They were a race cars of antiquity, they were really fun to drive.

Silesian
01-04-14, 18:22
This one is not a war chariot. This is some perhaps kind of ceremonial chariot pulled by bulls (holly cow), or first Rickshaw?

Try to compare images/technology of Andronovo to Mittani and Hittite war chariots. If out of steppe theory is right (and if they invented war chariots first) we should find older and simpler models in Andronovo and newer and improved (with time going by) in Mittani and Hittite.

Well between the two I'd rather been seen in the Hittite model when pulling into Tim's to pick up my timbits and hot chocolate that's for sure. Joking aside, that would be great to compare Andronovo chariot with newer and improved. However something perplexes me in James Mallory discussion about the Tocharians/Iranians/Saka
Tocharian or Tokharian (/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English)t (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ə (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ˈ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)k (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ɛər (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)i (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ən (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English) or / (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English)t (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ə (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ˈ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)k (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ɑr (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)i (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ən (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English)) is an extinct branch of the Indo-European language family (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_language_family), formerly spoken by Tocharian peoples (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharians) and Afanasevo. 52 minutes he uses the term weird because there does not seem to be a connection with steppe. Then he points out they come from the Andronovo horizon somehow; that does not seem like a very firm conviction. Do you think we will find the same chariots among the isolated branch of I.E. speakers known as Tocharians as in Andronovo? Where exactly are the oldest branches of R1a- Z93? What is the oldest dated sample of R1a-Z93 in Ukraine/Kurgan region?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q_tqVQHwFw

Nobody1
01-04-14, 18:31
Absolutely as to the first part; I'm just not quite as sure about the second part as you are. I would also add that it all has to align with the genetics. And I'll just note that a staging ground north of the Caucasus is perfectly compatible with the Ivanov model. I think I'll stick with Professor Mallory on this one...

6335

There's quite a lot in those 400 plus pages of the Grigoriev book; I really think it's doing him a disservice to reduce it all to one "sound bite".

I cant see the detailed attachment;
But since you have read the 400 plus pages of Grigoriev could you just highlight the passages about the Urheimat maybe i missed them; As for Mallory (i have already written this on post#99) Mallory criticizes all Urheimat (proto-Indo-European homeland) theories not just the steppes in fact in many respects he agrees with the steppes over the other theories;

Asko Parpola -
http://www.royalasiaticsociety.org/site/files/Part%203%20-%20Aryans%20and%20Nomads.pdf
' It should be a culture connected through a chain of genealogically related cultures with the often widely dispersed areas where the various branches of Indo-European were first attested. This and various other criteria have suggested the Srednij Stog culture (c 4500-3350 BC) of Ukraine as the most likely candidate. (Mallory 1989) '

But most importantly all these scholars (linguists/archaeologists) agree that there is a proto-Indo-European homeland out which all branches emerged from; And what if Grigoriev is correct that Sintashta is Near Eastern or even non-Indo-European; Ultimately nothing dramatic in the light of BMAC and the Andronovo-Fedorovo expansion;

Philip L. Kohl [p.208] clearly illustrates an (archaeological attested) increase of "steppe" influence/culture into BMAC by the mid 2nd mil BC and Final Bronze-age with pastoralism becoming a greater part of the economy as a result [Andronovo/Fedorovo];

This is the latest (2013) from Prof. D. W. Anthony (linguistics/archaeology)
http://www.jolr.ru/files/%28104%29jlr2013-9%281-21%29.pdf


Some of the opponents of the steppe hypothesis are attacking a straw man by assuming that the proponents of the steppe hypothesis are arguing that the Indo-Europeans came out of a prairie vacuum, uninfluenced by surrounding cultures, which is not what advocates of the steppe hypothesis are arguing at all.

Spot on;

Angela
01-04-14, 18:44
[QUOTE=Aberdeen;429064]Some of the opponents of the steppe hypothesis are attacking a straw man by assuming that the proponents of the steppe hypothesis are arguing that the Indo-Europeans came out of a prairie vacuum, uninfluenced by surrounding cultures, which is not what advocates of the steppe hypothesis are arguing at all.

Who is assuming any such thing? I'm certainly not, nor have I seen any indication that any of the proponents of the various Near Eastern hypotheses assume that proponents of the Pontic Caspian theory deny the influence of the Near Eastern cultures on the steppe peoples. While I would say that earlier incarnations of the Pontic-Caspian hypothesis posited that these people were the originators of many of the hallmarks of the culture which they spread, and which current scholarship has shown to be highly doubtful, current proponents do see that influence more clearly.

Also, we are not just discussing the flow of culture. We are discussing the genetic composition of the people who created this Indo-European package and trying to locate a specific locale for where it occurred. In other words, was it a group of people on the "prairie" as you put it, who put this package together from influences from the Near East and adapted them to their own environment, or was it a group of people in eastern Anatolia/western Iran who moved with their culture in various directions, obviously mixing with other groups along the way.

I have no dog in this fight since I'm from neither of the areas discussed and I don't have a career or a well-known internet reputation that rests on the solution to this question. Nor, other than as a matter of intellectual curiosity, do I much care which it should turn out to be. Wherever they originally came from, if they destroyed "Old Europe", a pox on their houses as they used to say! I'm kidding here, of course. While the reading of Gimbutas to which I was exposed certainly didn't encourage a positive view of them, I'm now older and wiser. It's the way of mankind... civilizations rise and fall.


Now, some of the advocates of the Anatolian hypothesis, I'm not sure what their arguments are because some of them are in fact quite difficult to read. That doesn't mean that their ideas, to the extent that one can understand them, are more valid.

I would say that some popularists, including Anthony, are easy to read not because they over-simplify and not solely because their language is more fluid but in large part because they have a knack for cutting through the bull and creating a cohesive over-view that's easy to understand because it's well thought out on a macro level.


I didn't think this needed to be said, but...whatever... turgid, poor writing doesn't make the content more accurate, and clear, organized, accessible writing doesn't make the content more incorrect, or, vice versa.

Angela
01-04-14, 19:30
I cant see the detailed attachment;
But since you have read the 400 plus pages of Grigoriev could you just highlight the passages about the Urheimat maybe i missed them; As for Mallory (i have already written this on post#99) Mallory criticizes all Urheimat (proto-Indo-European homeland) theories not just the steppes in fact in many respects he agrees with the steppes over the other theories;

Asko Parpola -
http://www.royalasiaticsociety.org/site/files/Part%203%20-%20Aryans%20and%20Nomads.pdf
' It should be a culture connected through a chain of genealogically related cultures with the often widely dispersed areas where the various branches of Indo-European were first attested. This and various other criteria have suggested the Srednij Stog culture (c 4500-3350 BC) of Ukraine as the most likely candidate. (Mallory 1989) '

But most importantly all these scholars (linguists/archaeologists) agree that there is a proto-Indo-European homeland out which all branches emerged from; And what if Grigoriev is correct that Sintashta is Near Eastern or even non-Indo-European; Ultimately nothing dramatic in the light of BMAC and the Andronovo-Fedorovo expansion;

Philip L. Kohl [p.208] clearly illustrates an (archaeological attested) increase of "steppe" influence/culture into BMAC by the mid 2nd mil BC and Final Bronze-age with pastoralism becoming a greater part of the economy as a result [Andronovo/Fedorovo];

This is the latest (2013) from Prof. D. W. Anthony (linguistics/archaeology)
http://www.jolr.ru/files/%28104%29jlr2013-9%281-21%29.pdf



Spot on;

Must you always respond to even minor disagreements with such an inappropriate tone? It's totally unnecessary, and most unbecoming.

If you can't see the attachment, try refreshing your page. It's working for me right now, although I will check again after this post. If not, you can just go to Mallory's article...I've provided the link. it's very short, not the four hundred pages of Grigoriev.

Which brings me to your snarky comment. I never said that I had already read all four hundred plus pages. It is indeed very difficult and detailed reading for a non-specialist, and so it is very slow going for me. (and part of the difficulty is that it is poorly written) My comment was actually about the chariots that are being discussed and which he addresses in his work. I was going to skip to that part of the book and report back, but frankly I now don't know why I should bother either about that or finding quotes from him about his theory of the Near Eastern urheimat. (which is not identical to that of Gamkrelidze and Ivanov, by the way, although his research could be seen, I think, as partially supporting it. ) If you're really interested in his alternative views on the issue, you can do the work yourself.

I must say that you have quite a habit on this and on other responses to my posts of either repeating things I have myself already stated, or quoting scholars for propositions with which I obviously agree, in such a manner as to imply that I disagree with such statements or propositions, or accusing me of things I obviously didn't say. So, much of your post doesn't advance the discussion at all. As an example, my specific point in quoting Mallory is precisely that there are problems with all the hypotheses.

Btw, that latest article from Anthony is in the list of articles I provided which also includes Mallory's article, the article on the physical environment, and one I didn't mention, which is about their social organization. It's also where those Russian articles appear with which I requested help from any Russian readers on the site.

LeBrok
01-04-14, 21:51
Well between the two I'd rather been seen in the Hittite model when pulling into Tim's to pick up my timbits and hot chocolate that's for sure. Joking aside, that would be great to compare Andronovo chariot with newer and improved. However something perplexes me in James Mallory discussion about the Tocharians/Iranians/Saka and Afanasevo. 52 minutes he uses the term weird because there does not seem to be a connection with steppe. Then he points out they come from the Andronovo horizon somehow; that does not seem like a very firm conviction. Do you think we will find the same chariots among the isolated branch of I.E. speakers known as Tocharians as in Andronovo? Where exactly are the oldest branches of R1a- Z93? What is the oldest dated sample of R1a-Z93 in Ukraine/Kurgan region?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q_tqVQHwFw
A great lecture, a very objective one I might add. If these presented facts are true, I believe they are, it means that in first stage of Tocharian culture (2k BC) they are unrelated to Andronovo, the Indo-Iranians, and must have migrated from far away, from farmer's lands from other IE stock. Their language points to no recent relation to Iranien either. They lack horses in their culture therefore we won't be able to find chariots either.
In later stage we see strong Iranic/Saka influence and also strong Chinese influence. We can find chinese like pottery and I believe we should be able to find chariots too. At this stage horses are attested, buried together with warriors in graves.

Aberdeen
01-04-14, 22:22
[QUOTE]

Who is assuming any such thing? I'm certainly not, nor have I seen any indication that any of the proponents of the various Near Eastern hypotheses assume that proponents of the Pontic Caspian theory deny the influence of the Near Eastern cultures on the steppe peoples. While I would say that earlier incarnations of the Pontic-Caspian hypothesis posited that these people were the originators of many of the hallmarks of the culture which they spread, and which current scholarship has shown to be highly doubtful, current proponents do see that influence more clearly.

Also, we are not just discussing the flow of culture. We are discussing the genetic composition of the people who created this Indo-European package and trying to locate a specific locale for where it occurred. In other words, was it a group of people on the "prairie" as you put it, who put this package together from influences from the Near East and adapted them to their own environment, or was it a group of people in eastern Anatolia/western Iran who moved with their culture in various directions, obviously mixing with other groups along the way.

I have no dog in this fight since I'm from neither of the areas discussed and I don't have a career or a well-known internet reputation that rests on the solution to this question. Nor, other than as a matter of intellectual curiosity, do I much care which it should turn out to be. Wherever they originally came from, if they destroyed "Old Europe", a pox on their houses as they used to say! I'm kidding here, of course. While the reading of Gimbutas to which I was exposed certainly didn't encourage a positive view of them, I'm now older and wiser. It's the way of mankind... civilizations rise and fall.



I didn't think this needed to be said, but...whatever... turgid, poor writing doesn't make the content more accurate, and clear, organized, accessible writing doesn't make the content more incorrect, or, vice versa.

If we're primarily focussing on genetics as one of the keys to the problem, the difficulty is that we don't have enough old DNA from the various locations to have an honest discussion, IMO. I'm very sceptical of the idea of using current DNA results to tell us anything about where people were living 5800 years ago or whatever other point in the past. But we do have those results from the Andronovo horizon - 9 out of 10 DNA results were R1a. Does that suggest anything to you in terms of genetics and the Indo-Europeans? Perhaps it doesn't seem relevant to those who favour the Anatolian hypothesis, but if you're going to sit on the fence and consider the view in every direction like Mallory, DNA results might seem relevant when looking at a population of farmers who were in the right location to have easily have shifted into pastoral nomadism, which I see as one of the requirements for rapid expansion over a wide area.

As I said in my previous post, one of my assumptions is that some people are better writers precisely because they do have a better grasp of the material to be considered. I stand by that statement.

Aberdeen
01-04-14, 22:27
Would you prefer detailed, as Professor Mallory puts it?
6336

.........


Can you please explain to me why people living in Anatolia would migrate east of the Caspian Sea in order to reach an area north of the Black Sea? Goga mentioned that but didn't explain it when asked. And, to be honest, I think that idea is silly.

Nobody1
02-04-14, 01:04
Must you always respond to even minor disagreements with such an inappropriate tone? It's totally unnecessary, and most unbecoming.
If you can't see the attachment, try refreshing your page. It's working for me right now, although I will check again after this post. If not, you can just go to Mallory's article...I've provided the link. it's very short, not the four hundred pages of Grigoriev. Which brings me to your snarky comment. I never said that I had already read all four hundred plus pages. It is indeed very difficult and detailed reading for a non-specialist, and so it is very slow going for me. (and part of the difficulty is that it is poorly written)

I was just asking you a question because after reading Grigoriev2002 and his article Investigation of Bronze Age Metallurgical Slag i only read about Sintashta; So your commercial for Grigoriev2002 was a bit misleading; Nonetheless very informative books/articles and if i read it all correctly than Grigoriev even doubts the Indo-Iranian connection with Sintashta as 'not convincing' (which makes his Near East connection in the light of BMAC and before Andronovo/Fodorovo even less spectacular);

I can see the attachment now and if you add Gogas map to it than that is pretty much the concept;


My comment was actually about the chariots that are being discussed and which he addresses in his work. I was going to skip to that part of the book and report back, but frankly I now don't know why I should bother either about that or finding quotes from him about his theory of the Near Eastern urheimat. (which is not identical to that of Gamkrelidze and Ivanov, by the way, although his research could be seen, I think, as partially supporting it. ) If you're really interested in his alternative views on the issue, you can do the work yourself.

As for your comment about chariots; Its not so much the actual chariots as it is the common vocabulary in all major Indo-European branches about chariots (wheeled-wagons) that is the significance terminus post quem;


I must say that you have quite a habit on this and on other responses to my posts of either repeating things I have myself already stated, or quoting scholars for propositions with which I obviously agree, in such a manner as to imply that I disagree with such statements or propositions, or accusing me of things I obviously didn't say. So, much of your post doesn't advance the discussion at all. As an example, my specific point in quoting Mallory is precisely that there are problems with all the hypotheses.

Well than we obviously agree on the same point;


Btw, that latest article from Anthony is in the list of articles I provided which also includes Mallory's article, the article on the physical environment, and one I didn't mention, which is about their social organization. It's also where those Russian articles appear with which I requested help from any Russian readers on the site.

Even better;

LeBrok
02-04-14, 18:46
In general I'm in agreement with Maciamo's vision:


http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a_migration_map.jpg
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

Perhaps I would push M417 to East Sintashta location and from there draw the Z93 and 94 arrows. I think when Z93 happened there there was already huge spatial distance to Z280 to 284. Because if they both happened in Yamna they would have mixed very well together, and it is not the case.
I would also draw a separate arrow to Tocharians directly from Yamna. They seem to be only slightly related to Indo-Iranians.

I like the younger age for L664, denoting early split from M417, as possible migration of hunter gatherers, before R1a became farmers during Yamna period.

bicicleur
02-04-14, 18:56
Continuing this thought. With time all armies got used to chariots and developed technics fighting them. I think there is a description of Alexander using one of technics destroying Darius 3rd chariots. One can always mix few archers into an infantry, making it too dangerous and costly for charioteers to attack such group. Especially well armored and well shielded professional armies of Greeks and Romans.
After Alexander victory over Darius we don't see extensive chariot use anymore. I think Romans exploited them in couple of battles, but generally used them only in races. They were a race cars of antiquity, they were really fun to drive.

The biggest battle with war chariots was the battle of Kadesh.
After that the war chariot was on the decline.
We know very little about the Sea Peoples but they seem to have found some tactics to get around the war chariots.
The first use of cavalry were the Assyrians or maybe Scyths, when they had invented the composite bow, but that was 3-400 years or so after the Kadesh battle.

bicicleur
02-04-14, 19:09
[QUOTE]

Wherever they originally came from, if they destroyed "Old Europe", a pox on their houses as they used to say! I'm kidding here, of course. While the reading of Gimbutas to which I was exposed certainly didn't encourage a positive view of them, I'm now older and wiser. It's the way of mankind... civilizations rise and fall.



Gimbutas may have been right about the Indo-Europeans, I think she was wrong about 'Old Europe'. It was quite naive to see 'Old Europe' as the ideal peaceful, equal and harmonious society. She ignored 'the way of mankind' as you put it.

oriental
02-04-14, 20:28
The Tocharians had to climb over one of the highest mountains in the world, Pamir and Tien (Heaven) Shan (Mountain) Mountains, to get to the Tarim Basin so they abandoned their wagons and horses. Central Asia was a different place than it is today. It was lush and the ice from the arctic and mountain glaciers provided lots of water in the summer. The herders destroyed their habitat as the bigger the herd the richer you were. The large herds consumed the grass and goats were the worst as they ate up everything including saplings thus destroying forests. With the browning of Central Asia it got hotter and dried the land and climate change occurred.

Look at the Yellowstone National Park when the wolves were all killed. The deer population denuded the park and it was dying.

I don't take scholars who use the term Gedrosia (which no longer exist) instead of Baluchistan in Pakistan, seriously as their mindset is still in the Greek period Old prejudices don't die but live on in Academia.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/in-the-valley-of-the-wolves/reintroduction-of-the-wolves/213/

The ways to India are not only through the mountains by also by sea namely the Arabian Sea. The Harrapa Civilization may have been an extension of Elam. There was a lively trade between Egypt and Harrapa.

Now there are stone structures, maybe man-made, found under the sea near Japan, India and in the Mediterranean Sea. The ocean level rose up 300 or so feet 10,000 years ago. The rise was not sudden but steady with sporadic surges as ice dams in the mountains would have brought devastating floods witness the European floods recently brought about by the melting of the glaciers and heavy rains.

Humans could be older than current estimates as the African American was found to have yDNA 200,000 or so years old, much older than Haplogroup A. Now from 200,000 years to 10,000 years is 190,000 years. Surely during that long period humans must have developed some sort of civilization especially along the sea coasts which humans tend to live near. Look at the major cities they are all near the sea so before the sea rise major settlements would be would be wiped out by the sea rise.

The Persian Gulf would have had a lot of people living there as it was low land where probably even Haplogoup IJ may have split.

Notice Haplogroup C in Europe. The disappearance would probably mean genocide. Ancient Haplogroups were wiped out by newer ones. Haplogroup D is another one that was left only in isolated mountains (Tibet) or islands like Japan.

I don't take scholars who use Gedrosia (which no longer exists) instead of Baluchistan in Pakistan, seriously as their mindsets are still in the Greek Period and not in the present. Old prejudices don'tdie as they live on in academia.

Sile
02-04-14, 21:01
In general I'm in agreement with Maciamo's vision:


http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a_migration_map.jpg
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

Perhaps I would push M417 to East Sintashta location and from there draw the Z93 and 94 arrows. I think when Z93 happened there there was already huge spatial distance to Z280 to 284. Because if they both happened in Yamna they would have mixed very well together, and it is not the case.
I would also draw a separate arrow to Tocharians directly from Yamna. They seem to be only slightly related to Indo-Iranians.

I like the younger age for L664, denoting early split from M417, as possible migration of hunter gatherers, before R1a became farmers during Yamna period.

I believe also the M458 began in the polesia, where M417 is created, but map seems to be indicating this as well

LeBrok
02-04-14, 22:09
The Tocharians had to climb over one of the highest mountains in the world, Pamir and Tien (Heaven) Shan (Mountain) Mountains, to get to the Tarim Basin so they abandoned their wagons and horses.
Even if they abandoned wagons, they still could have built/recreated them once they reached Tarim Basin. They knew how to make them.
How did Saka/Iranians brought their horses and wagons through mountains a thousand years later?
It is not that hard to cross to the valley. Silk caravans did it for millennia. Map of silk roads:
http://www.penn.museum/silkroad/images/tarim_basin_map_small.jpg




Central Asia was a different place than it is today. It was lush and the ice from the arctic and mountain glaciers provided lots of water in the summer. The herders destroyed their habitat as the bigger the herd the richer you were. The large herds consumed the grass Give some water and grass grows back. The sheeps of Scottland are grazing the grass for thousands of years and look, grass is still growing there. The problem is that the rain stopped falling over Tarim Basin. If water was only supplied by melting glaciers, the water would have stay only in reverse, so you would have only trees by the river and still a desert in vast areas. The only way to make it green is to get some rain. Rain stopped due to climate change for colder and dryer.
Look at river Nile in Egypt. Green by the river and rest is a desert:
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRq0-az7IN5BlTPo3tGoh35tJxnSrqvwyV4sonRdhJPJYQ3yCW6mg



With the browning of Central Asia it got hotter and dried the land and climate change occurred. Actually it was greener in Holocene Optimum when earth was warmer and moister. The drying up came after Holocene together with global cooling.
http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/cms/dn11647/dn11647-4_600.jpg



Now there are stone structures, maybe man-made, found under the sea near Japan, India and in the Mediterranean Sea. The ocean level rose up 300 or so feet 10,000 years ago. The rise was not sudden but steady with sporadic surges as ice dams in the mountains would have brought devastating floods witness the European floods recently brought about by the melting of the glaciers and heavy rains. Look at the major cities they are all near the sea so before the sea rise major settlements would be would be wiped out by the sea rise.

Chart for sea level since glacial maximum:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Post-Glacial_Sea_Level.png
As you see the glacial melt ended about 8k years ago, just before rise of civilisations and first cities. Actually the highest sea level (extra 2 meters) was during Holocene Optimum. Therefore it is extremely hard to conclude that rising of sea level submerged any ancient city. Most likely tectonic rise and fall of the ground caused sinking of some coastal cities. One of the best example is ancient Alexandria, where due to an earthquake ground went way lower submerging the city in the sea.

LeBrok
02-04-14, 23:32
I think it all started from something like this, as per map below, just before IE conception 6 thousand years ago. We see a strong divide between Farmers and Hunter-Gatherers. Farmers pushed all HGs North to forests, steppes and semi deserts, and took the best grounds for their crops. Black line marks the approximate divide between farmers and hunters. I believe R1a M417 already gave L664, the rest of M417 sits Pontic Steppe just about to become farmers and IE, before Z93 and Z283 split.
6337

oriental
02-04-14, 23:49
The sheeps of Scottland are grazing the grass for thousands of years and look, grass is still growing there. The problem is that the rain stopped falling over Tarim Basin.

In the temperate zone global winds blow from west to east so UK gets a lot of rain as moisture from the Atlantic deposits rain over the mountainous Scotland (the Highlands). The air by the time it reaches Central Asia has become dry as the moisture has been depleted passing over the Alps, Urals, etc. The gradual depletion of the glaciers in the Tien Shan mountains also slowly dried the rivers that trickled into the Tarim Basin. The lakes in the Tarim Basin are gone. It is simple Geography.


We know very little about the Sea Peoples but they seem to have found some tactics to get around the war chariots.

The Sea Peoples were possibly the indigenous Europeans Haplogroups I, G and E driven out of France and Spain by the Haplogroup R1b mainly. They were refugees looking for land in the coastal areas of the Mediterranean. There was also a war in Anatolia. These refugees provided manpower to the Phrygians who revolting against the Hittites and Mittani. Anatolia is mountainous so chariots were useless there. The Sea Peoples destroyed the Hittite Empire came around Levant to invade Egypt. They failed but took over the Levant. Just my hypothesis.

Taranis
02-04-14, 23:52
I'd like to make a point regarding the Tocharians: as far as the geographic proximity goes, one would indeed assume that Tocharian should be closest with the Indo-Iranic languages. But as far as relationship inside the Indo-European languages goes, the Tocharian branch is closest with the Indo-European languages on the western periphery, especially Celtic and Italic.

I might add, by my observation none of the rival theories of the Kurgan hypothesis do satisfiably explain the presence and position of the Tocharian languages. Actually, I would say that - ironically - the hypotheses are tendentially highly Eurocentric in that regard.

Angela
03-04-14, 01:02
Can you please explain to me why people living in Anatolia would migrate east of the Caspian Sea in order to reach an area north of the Black Sea? Goga mentioned that but didn't explain it when asked. And, to be honest, I think that idea is silly.


I haven't been ignoring your question; it's just that I haven't yet come across the precise answer. I'm skipping around in the Grigoriev book to see if I can find out how he addresses the issue, but haven't found it in the limited time I've had available. Then I'll see if I can quickly find it in the Gramkelidze papers. (Grigoriev locates the urheimat in northern Mesopotamia, btw, not the Armenian highlands, and earlier than that 4,000 B.C. date, (6,000 B.C.) which seems very problematical, although I don't want to be dogmatic about it because I haven't read the whole section yet.

Off the cuff, I would say that some of these Near Eastern urheimat theories do see a movement west, one which would account for the Anatolian branch. They do, however, see a big group moving counter clockwise around the Caspian quite a bit later.

My initial thought was that the route through the Caucasus is obviously a difficult one, so I can see why that wasn't the chosen migration path; this is a refuge area for a reason. It seems to be that the only easy route is over a narrow strip on the east side of the mountains.

As for why the eastern route was preferred by this later group of people, rather than another movement west, I thought that by the time of the move, the way west might have been very densely populated given that it was the heartland of the Neolithic, and so offered no room for expansion. Or, I wondered whether because of climate change the way east suddenly became attractive at that point.

These seem like such simple things to research that the fact that they aren't part of the conversation probably means these ideas didn't pan out, but if I find out anything interesting, I'll post about it.

I don't know if you've had a chance to watch Professor Mallory's talk on the Tocharians linked to upthread. Anyway, you'll no doubt be pleased to discover that he seems to share your scorn for this end run around the Caspian idea. He calls it this theory that they were wandering around in Central Asia. :) The comment is at about 1:00 into the youtube video.

Aberdeen
03-04-14, 03:03
I shouldn't have called the "around the Caspian to get to the northern Pontic" idea silly, since I don't know what it was based on. But it does seem to be the difficult way of doing things. I think that if going through the Caucasus wasn't an option, it would have been more because of who was living there at the time than because of geographic difficulties, but I do think the area east of the Caspian might have had some folks living there too. And if the way was clear for people to migrate around the Caucasus, why would they have turned north, then west? If they could migrate into Iran, why not stay there? Or maybe just go north. If they were worried about running into other people, they would have had that same problem on the steppes, to a greater or lesser degree during different time periods.

Silesian
03-04-14, 07:22
R1a ? branch from Ukraine/Kurgan region reaches Anatolia with Hittites 1700.BC? Oldest attested Indo-European language.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/Hittite_Chariot.jpg

Coach driver 2000 B.C.E. Harappa, Indus Valley Civilization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilization) R1a branch spread from Ukraine Kurgan/Andronovo region to Indus Valley?
Oldest attested Indo European Vedic Sanskrit related to Avesta and perhaps Mede ancient but extinct.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Coach_driver_Indus_01.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4jHsy4xeuoQ

Three regions posted in above diagram/lecture to discredit Anatolian theories. Complete vocabulary for vehicular cart/chariot- Iranian, Indic and Tocharian. R1a from Kurgan/Andronovo ?

Maciamo's vision: and rough time frame for R1a in Iranian Indic and Tocharian excludes Hittites.


http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a_migration_map.jpg
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml


[/QUOTE]

Andronovo chariot 2000 B.C. R1a branch?
Tocharian chariot B.C ? R1a branch ?
Indic chariot 2000 B.C pulled by oxen R1a branch?
Iranian chariots and R1a branch?
Tocharian carts chariots? Tocharian R1a ? Tocharian language according to some posters, Italic/Celtic connection?

Does the spread of R1a/ language and cart-chariot match with known archeological finds?

I think there is a flaw in the timeline and physical evidence of R1a and chariots and horse in Indic region and Tocharian, to demolish Kurgan/Ukraine Andronovo chronological spread of R1a.

bicicleur
03-04-14, 08:22
The Tocharians had to climb over one of the highest mountains in the world, Pamir and Tien (Heaven) Shan (Mountain) Mountains, to get to the Tarim Basin so they abandoned their wagons and horses. Central Asia was a different place than it is today. It was lush and the ice from the arctic and mountain glaciers provided lots of water in the summer. The herders destroyed their habitat as the bigger the herd the richer you were. The large herds consumed the grass and goats were the worst as they ate up everything including saplings thus destroying forests. With the browning of Central Asia it got hotter and dried the land and climate change occurred.


The Tocharians didn't cross the high mountains, they came into the Tarim Basin through the Dzungarian gate.
I guess they abandonned charioots because the lifestyle in the Tarim Basin was not the same as on the steppe.

bicicleur
03-04-14, 08:26
I shouldn't have called the "around the Caspian to get to the northern Pontic" idea silly, since I don't know what it was based on. But it does seem to be the difficult way of doing things. I think that if going through the Caucasus wasn't an option, it would have been more because of who was living there at the time than because of geographic difficulties, but I do think the area east of the Caspian might have had some folks living there too. And if the way was clear for people to migrate around the Caucasus, why would they have turned north, then west? If they could migrate into Iran, why not stay there? Or maybe just go north. If they were worried about running into other people, they would have had that same problem on the steppes, to a greater or lesser degree during different time periods.

I don't think they went around the Caspian, simply because there is a big desert east of the Caspian, not possible to cross without horses or camels.

LeBrok
03-04-14, 08:51
[
Andronovo chariot 2000 B.C. R1a branch?
Tocharian chariot B.C ? R1a branch ?
Indic chariot 2000 B.C pulled by oxen R1a branch?
Iranian chariots and R1a branch?
Tocharian carts chariots? Tocharian R1a ? Tocharian language according to some posters, Italic/Celtic connection?

Does the spread of R1a/ language and cart-chariot match with known archeological finds?

I think there is a flaw in the timeline and physical evidence of R1a and chariots and horse in Indic region and Tocharian, to demolish Kurgan/Ukraine Andronovo chronological spread of R1a.
Listen to this, it should answer your questions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HliaR2Ep24s

Nobody1
03-04-14, 09:11
Judging by Li et al 2010 the migration of the Indo-Europeans (Tocharians/Saka) into the Tarim basin app. occurred at least ~1900BC (early Bronze-age);

Li et al 2010 - http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/8/15
'Based on analyses of human remains and other archaeological materials from the ancient cemeteries (dated from approximately the Bronze Age to the Iron Age), there is now widespread acceptance that the first residents of the Tarim Basin came from the West. This was followed, in stages, by the arrival of Eastern people following the Han Dynasty [1,2].'

During the Han dynasty there was however a back migration/invasion into Graeco-Bactria (Strabo XI/VIII) which later turned into the Kushan Empire (>Kingdoms); The Tocharians of Greek-Roman history (Strabo XI/VIII / Ptolemy VI / Justinus Epit. XLII Prol. XLII) are identifed with the Yuezhi [Yüeh-Chi] of Chinese history (Zhang Qian preserved in the Hanshu history and Sama Qian's history); The brief story goes that the Xiongnu of Cahnyu Modu defeated the Yuezhi and pushed them westward as Strabo relates of an entire confederation in XI/VIII 'They are all for the most part nomads. But the best known of the nomads are those who took away Bactriana from the Greeks, I mean the Asii, Pasiani, Tochari, and Sacarauli, who originally came from the country on the other side of the Iaxartes River that adjoins that of the Sacae and the Sogdiani and was occupied by the Sacae' and Justinus in Epit. XLII relates how the Parthian king Artabanus was killed in battle against the Tocharians and Bactria became later known as Tokharistan; Bactrian/[I]Kushan-Bactrian (Indo-Iranian/satem) still remained the official language in [50BC-650AD] in Bactria/Kushan (R.N. Frye p.458 The Fall of Graeco-Bactrians: Sakas and Indo-Parthians) whereas Tocharian [A/B] was a centum Indo-European language still in use by the 6th cen AD in the Tarim Basin (J.P. Mallory p.591 Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture);

Silesian
03-04-14, 14:04
Listen to this, it should answer your questions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HliaR2Ep24s
Problems I have.Anthony shows Egyptian, Tut's burial chariot's. Tut's tested ydna has never been made officially public after 3+/- years. Wagon and chariot were such a fast traveling technology that he cannot determine the start and or direction of spread. 200 burial's in Steppe with chariot in kurgan. The question I have how many times is this burial technique [Kurgan buried chariot and or horse]mentioned in Vedic Sanskrit texts? How many on these types of burials are found in Northern India. How many of these types of burials are mentioned in Tocharian and found in Tocharian kurgan? How many of these types of burials in Medes, Mitanni, Hittites? In short, the migration routes of R1a Indo-European and burial methods are all different, can you prove otherwise? Kung Tut might be an exception.
There is also something very perplexing in this video at 59.15 about the spread of horses coming from Iranian plateau 1900 B.C. Look how they show there chariot, with oxen. Were they replaced by horses from Iranian plateau from Andronovo?

Coach driver 2000 B.C.E. Harappa, Indus Valley Civilization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilization)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Coach_driver_Indus_01.jpg[/QUOTE]

Aberdeen
03-04-14, 16:29
I don't think they went around the Caspian, simply because there is a big desert east of the Caspian, not possible to cross without horses or camels.

I question how much archeological evidence there is of such a migration. Based on what I've read, I think it happened the way Maciamo's map indicates, with migration from the steppes into Central Asia, then down from Central Asia into Iran. For some reason, some people can accept the idea that Turkey wasn't always Turkish but find it difficult to accept the idea that Iran wasn't always Iranian. But Central Asia was clearly Iranian as it emerged into the historical period and I think the movement was north to south, not south to north.

LeBrok
03-04-14, 19:07
Problems I have.Anthony shows Egyptian, Tut's burial chariot's. Tut's tested ydna has never been made officially public after 3+/- years. Wagon and chariot were such a fast traveling technology that he cannot determine the start and or direction of spread. Anthony claims that we can't pinpoint origin of a wagon. However if it comes to a proper chariot he insists, based on archeology, that it spreads prof steppes to South Asia, and wherever it spreads we can find Indo-Iranian cultures around. Also spread of chariots goes hand in hand with spread of domesticated horse, which doesn't exist in South Asia before 2,000 BCE. Mesopotamians had domesticated asses, and their name for a horse was "ass from mountains". Recent genetic study also place domestication of horses in Steppe.
In short, the horse, the war chariot, R1a Z93, and Indo-Iranians point to spread of IE from the Steppe to South Asia.


200 burial's in Steppe with chariot in kurgan. The question I have how many times is this burial technique [Kurgan buried chariot and or horse]mentioned in Vedic Sanskrit texts? How many on these types of burials are found in Northern India. How many of these types of burials are mentioned in Tocharian and found in Tocharian kurgan? How many of these types of burials in Medes, Mitanni, Hittites? In short, the migration routes of R1a Indo-European and burial methods are all different, can you prove otherwise? Kung Tut might be an exception. I'm not familiar with burial methods of these cultures. Maybe someone can enlighten us here.



There is also something very perplexing in this video at 59.15 about the spread of horses coming from Iranian plateau 1900 B.C. Look how they show there chariot, with oxen. Were they replaced by horses from Iranian plateau from Andronovo?

Coach driver 2000 B.C.E. Harappa, Indus Valley Civilization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilization)

This is a very weird chariot indead. We have full wheels and is drawn by young bulls, and exceptionally long tongue (wagon-horse connecting long piece of wood) and long axles than it should, therefore it can't turn too fast or it will flip from the momentum. The man doesn't have any known weapon, but some sort of hook on a stick. I think it is used for some sort of sporting event. The chariot look like purposely made to be difficult to drive for this competition. Nevertheless it is a chariot, and let's deal with it as such.
I did some reading and it looks like the scientists have difficulty with dating this chariot to exact period. Your 2,000 BCE is at the earliest possible date. It might be as well dated at 1,750 or 1,500 as latest (as some do). In this case right in line with spread of horse and chariots from the Steppe. Also in 1.800 BCE Harappa declines and is pushed farther east. Interestingly it might coincide with Indo-Iranian invasion.

oriental
03-04-14, 19:35
Mythology usually is used as a device to demonize the conquered. In the Rig Veda (Iron Age as black metal is mentioned in their weapons) the dark-skinned are demons of India and the Aryans from Central Asia with their god Indra vanquish the demons destroying their dam that was on the Indus river. The dam is a demon. Also in the Ramayana the southern indians are demons and are dark skinned with small noses and their demon god is in Lanka (Ceylon). This is a favorite device to justify their conquest. Look at the Leprechaun in Ireland were they the original inhabitants who were threatened as the Haplogroup R1b metal workers looked for metal mines or Gold?

Silesian
03-04-14, 19:39
This is a very weird chariot indead.

I do not know if Anthony is fluent in Sanskrit. The gentlemen in this video has a very different take on the horse and chariot from the way it is portrayed by Anthony. Basically it looks like a description from ancient Indian culture; which he points out beside oxen, horse, bird/deer elk were multi personal vehicle- ratha vehicle, not a war chariot @ 12:40 13:30 He also points out chariots are only found 3rd century B.C. and horses 1st century C.E. That is why I was wondering what archeological evidence of burials with chariots and horse by R1a Z93 elite can be found in the region Sarasvati/Saraswati river in ancient India mentioned in the Veda's and in the area the Tocharians inhabited [is there even one example]that was common elsewhere like Andronovo?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyN0zs_tBRY

oriental
03-04-14, 20:23
Harrapa or Indus Valley Civilization was an extension of Elam so there would be Indo-Iranians in there so when the Aryans came down through the Khyber Pass and another pass through the Hindu Kush they would have met similar people so the clash might not be very violent. The violence would have occurred earlier with the Haplogroup D as they hugged the coastline when they left Africa to Japan, Tibet and Australia. There are not too many Haplogroup D in India. Of course the rising sea might have done them in.

Aberdeen
03-04-14, 20:26
The Rig Veda mentions the Goddess Ushas (the dawn) and the God Agni (messenger between Gods and men) riding in chariots. The Rig Veda compares the Sariswati River to a chariot.

Here are the first 16 verses of Hymn CLXII of the Rig Veda, which is entitled "The Horse".



1. SLIGHT us not Varuṇa, Aryaman, or Mitra, Ṛbhukṣan, Indra, Āyu, or the Maruts,
When we declare amid the congregation the virtues of the strong Steed, God-descended.
2 What time they bear before the Courser, covered with trappings and with wealth, the grasped oblation,
The dappled goat goeth straightforward, bleating, to the place dear to Indra and to Pūṣan.
3 Dear to all Gods, this goat, the share of Pūṣan, is first led forward with the vigorous Courser,
While Tvaṣṭar sends him forward with the Charger, acceptable for sacrifice, to glory.
4 When thrice the men lead round the Steed, in order, who goeth to the Gods as meet oblation,
The goat precedeth him, the share of Pūṣan, and to the Gods the sacrifice announceth.
5 Invoker, ministering priest, atoner, fire-kindler Soma-presser, sage, reciter,
With this well ordered sacrifice, well finished, do ye fill full the channels of the rivers.
6 The hewers of the post and those who carry it, and those who carve the knob to deck the Horse's stake;
Those who prepare the cooking-vessels for the Steed,—may the approving help of these promote our work.
7 Forth, for the regions of the Gods, the Charger with his smooth back is come my prayer attends him.
In him rejoice the singers and the sages. A good friend have we won for the Gods’ banquet.
8 May the fleet Courser's halter and his heel-ropes, the head-stall and the girths and cords about him.
And the grass put within his mouth to bait him,—among the Gods, too, let all these be with thee.
9 What part of the Steed's flesh the fly hath eaten, or is left sticking to the post or hatchet,
Or to the slayer's hands and nails adhereth,—among the Gods, too, may all this be with thee.
10 Food undigested steaming from his belly, and any odour of raw flesh remaining,
This let the immolators set in order and dress the sacrifice with perfect cooking.
11 What from thy body which with fire is roasted, when thou art set upon the spit, distilleth,
Let not that lie on earth or grass neglected, but to the longing Gods let all be offered.
12 They who observing that the Horse is ready call out and say, the smell is good; remove it;
And, craving meat, await the distribution,—may their approving help promote labour.
13 The trial-fork of the flesh-cooking caldron, the vessels out of which the broth is sprinkled,
The warming-pots, the covers of the dishes, hooks, carving-boards,—all these attend the Charger.
14 The starting-place, his place of rest and rolling, the ropes wherewith the Charger's feet were fastened,
The water that he drank, the food he tasted,—among the Gods, too, may all these attend thee.
15 Let not the fire, smoke-scented, make thee crackle, nor glowing caldron smell and break to pieces.
Offered, beloved, approved, and consecrated,—such Charger do the Gods accept with favour.
16 The robe they spread upon the Horse to clothe him, the upper covering and the golden trappings,
The halters which restrain the Steed, the heel-ropes,—all these, as grateful to the Gods, they offer.

Silesian
03-04-14, 20:54
The Rig Veda mentions the Goddess Ushas (the dawn) and the God Agni (messenger between Gods and men) riding in chariots. The Rig Veda compares the Sariswati River to a chariot.

Here are the first 16 verses of Hymn CLXII of the Rig Veda, which is entitled "The Horse".



1. SLIGHT us not Varuṇa, Aryaman, or Mitra, Ṛbhukṣan, Indra, Āyu, or the Maruts,
When we declare amid the congregation the virtues of the strong Steed, God-descended.
2 What time they bear before the Courser, covered with trappings and with wealth, the grasped oblation,
The dappled goat goeth straightforward, bleating, to the place dear to Indra and to Pūṣan.
3 Dear to all Gods, this goat, the share of Pūṣan, is first led forward with the vigorous Courser,
While Tvaṣṭar sends him forward with the Charger, acceptable for sacrifice, to glory.
4 When thrice the men lead round the Steed, in order, who goeth to the Gods as meet oblation,
The goat precedeth him, the share of Pūṣan, and to the Gods the sacrifice announceth.
5 Invoker, ministering priest, atoner, fire-kindler Soma-presser, sage, reciter,
With this well ordered sacrifice, well finished, do ye fill full the channels of the rivers.
6 The hewers of the post and those who carry it, and those who carve the knob to deck the Horse's stake;
Those who prepare the cooking-vessels for the Steed,—may the approving help of these promote our work.
7 Forth, for the regions of the Gods, the Charger with his smooth back is come my prayer attends him.
In him rejoice the singers and the sages. A good friend have we won for the Gods’ banquet.
8 May the fleet Courser's halter and his heel-ropes, the head-stall and the girths and cords about him.
And the grass put within his mouth to bait him,—among the Gods, too, let all these be with thee.
9 What part of the Steed's flesh the fly hath eaten, or is left sticking to the post or hatchet,
Or to the slayer's hands and nails adhereth,—among the Gods, too, may all this be with thee.
10 Food undigested steaming from his belly, and any odour of raw flesh remaining,
This let the immolators set in order and dress the sacrifice with perfect cooking.
11 What from thy body which with fire is roasted, when thou art set upon the spit, distilleth,
Let not that lie on earth or grass neglected, but to the longing Gods let all be offered.
12 They who observing that the Horse is ready call out and say, the smell is good; remove it;
And, craving meat, await the distribution,—may their approving help promote labour.
13 The trial-fork of the flesh-cooking caldron, the vessels out of which the broth is sprinkled,
The warming-pots, the covers of the dishes, hooks, carving-boards,—all these attend the Charger.
14 The starting-place, his place of rest and rolling, the ropes wherewith the Charger's feet were fastened,
The water that he drank, the food he tasted,—among the Gods, too, may all these attend thee.
15 Let not the fire, smoke-scented, make thee crackle, nor glowing caldron smell and break to pieces.
Offered, beloved, approved, and consecrated,—such Charger do the Gods accept with favour.
16 The robe they spread upon the Horse to clothe him, the upper covering and the golden trappings,
The halters which restrain the Steed, the heel-ropes,—all these, as grateful to the Gods, they offer.

Trust me Aberdeen you do not want to use the above information unless you support Goga's theory.

Aberdeen
03-04-14, 21:11
Trust me Aberdeen you do not want to use the above information unless you support Goga's theory.

Your comment makes absolutely no sense to me. Care to explain?

The steppe hypothesis does not argue against Iranic speaking people from Central Asia invading Iran and India. That's part of the theory - that there was an eastward movement as well as a westward movement, both originating from a central point on the steppe.

LeBrok
04-04-14, 00:31
I do not know if Anthony is fluent in Sanskrit. The gentlemen in this video has a very different take on the horse and chariot from the way it is portrayed by Anthony. Basically it looks like a description from ancient Indian culture; which he points out beside oxen, horse, bird/deer elk were multi personal vehicle- ratha vehicle, not a war chariot @ 12:40 13:30 He also points out chariots are only found 3rd century B.C. and horses 1st century C.E. That is why I was wondering what archeological evidence of burials with chariots and horse by R1a Z93 elite can be found in the region Sarasvati/Saraswati river in ancient India mentioned in the Veda's and in the area the Tocharians inhabited [is there even one example]that was common elsewhere like Andronovo?
I'm sorry but I can't take Dr. S. kalyanaraman seriously. He is sort of expert on Vedic/Rigveda, but not much of an expert in archeology, genetics, or dr. in linguistics. It is hard to find his bio to learn something about him. Is this the guy with PhD in public administration?:
http://www.sdctbheemili.org/biography.php?id=21
What is he a doctor of?

Regardless of his education, I just couldn't follow his lectures and his logic at all, and he calls other "monkeys", whomever doesn't agree with his "maticulat" logic. He pulls out supposed facts from Rigveda not even once mentioning that Rigveda had only oral tradition and was written down first time around 500 AD! To rely on human memory and not making mistakes through 1,000 years in changing culture and language is very tricky.

We should add that main composition of Rig Veda comes from around 1,500 BCE, therefore not earlier than Indo-Iranians showed as a culture in South Asia. Indo-Iranians have time from 2,000 BCE to 1,500 BCE to get to Indus Valley. Which agrees with Steppe theory.

The Rigveda's core is accepted to date to the late Bronze Age (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age), making it one of the few examples with an unbroken tradition. Its composition is usually dated to roughly between 1700–1100 BC.[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda#cite_note-29) The Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclopedia_of_Indo-European_Culture) (s.v. Indo-Iranian languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranian_languages), p. 306) gives 1500–1000 BC.[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda#cite_note-30) Being composed in an early Indo-Aryan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Indo-Aryan) language, the hymns must post-date the Indo-Iranian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Iranian) separation, dated to roughly 2000 BC.[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda#cite_note-31) A reasonable date close to that of the composition of the core of the Rigveda is that of the Indo-Aryan Mitanni documents of c. 1400 BC.[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda#cite_note-32) Other evidence also points to a composition close to 1400 BC[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda#cite_note-33)[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda#cite_note-34)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda

I think Rigveda is helpful to learn about Indo-Iranians, but not in the way dr. Kalyanaraman uses it.

Aberdeen
04-04-14, 02:21
I wouldn't take Kalyanaraman seriously as an "expert" on the Rig Veda, since he doesn't seem to have a clue what's in it. He says that horses, chariots and permanent altars aren't mentioned in the Rig Veda but all three of those things figure prominently in it. In fact, a lot of the Rig Veda consists of instructions on how to properly perform various rituals, including various sacrifices. And he doesn't seem to have a clue about the linguistics and comparative mythology that cements the relationship between Sanskrit and Vedic culture and the language and culture of other Indo-European people. The case for that connection was first made by Sir William Jones in the 1700s and more and more evidence has been accumulated since then. The date he comes up with for the supposed emergence of chariots in India is the latest possible date for the story about Krishna and his chariot, but in fact there's a lot of historical stuff about Indian chariots before that. An Indian King supposedly created the first scythed chariots about 2500 years ago, although in fact the Celts had them in Europe about the same time.

Aberdeen
04-04-14, 02:50
Harrapa or Indus Valley Civilization was an extension of Elam so there would be Indo-Iranians in there so when the Aryans came down through the Khyber Pass and another pass through the Hindu Kush they would have met similar people so the clash might not be very violent. The violence would have occurred earlier with the Haplogroup D as they hugged the coastline when they left Africa to Japan, Tibet and Autralia. There are not too many Haplogroup D in India. Of course the rising sea might have done them in.

There were trading connections between the Harrapans and people in the Middle East, but that doesn't make them the same people. And I suspect that the Aryans entered India through Afghanistan rather than coming over the Hindu Kush. As for violence, the Rig Veda talks quite a bit about warriors getting hopped up on soma in order to conquer the people they were invading, so I suspect there was a fair bit of bloodshed. That's how invaders manage to impose their language and culture on others - by telling them to get with the program or eat steel (or bronze, as the case may be).

oriental
04-04-14, 03:17
The Khyber Pass is through the Hindu Kush Mountains. It is Just that I forgot the name of the other pass. Pakistan did not exist then so Afghanistan was next door to India but Afghanistan didn't exist either so it was "Gedrosia" in Greek Period and today's Afghanistan. Parts of Afghanistan were parts of ancient India.

http://www.wunderground.com/wximage/cirerenrut/6?gallery=

What I meant was that Elam is associated with the Persians. Rig Veda does mention battles. The thing is that opponents of Aryan Invasion Theory point out that there was no massive destruction in the Indus Valley and very few corpses or evidence of battles. This is why I think that the Aryans defeated the Indo-Elamites but avoided too much damages as it was part of their own culture. It is almost like a civil war. It is in the interior parts of India where they fought fierce battles. However, they were mostly in the river basins - the Ganges or Ganga-Jumna. That is why they are called Hindus. Hindu in Persian means people of the river - nothing to do with religion.

Aberdeen
04-04-14, 03:48
I meant to say they likely came through what is now southern Afghanistan, which is less mountainous than the area further north, although that's just a guess. There are lots of arguments about how much evidence there is for violent destruction of what was left of the Harappan cities versus decay or earthquake destruction. However, you're not going to get a lot of evidence of bodies after 3500 years in an earthquake prone region like the area that's now Pakistan, which is more or less where the Aryans seem to have been when the Rig Veda was composed.

oriental
04-04-14, 04:12
The stone structures were not damaged like the Roman statues and there was no overall vandalism. The way I see it the Romans were so hated that probably the slaves inside when freed damaged all the treasured marbles. I guess the archaeologists were sort of imagining the way Persapolis and other places were wrecked and finding it assumed there wasn't any damage when there was damage but minimal as expected in a civil war.

The area has risen according to satellite images and readings and there are leftover river marks. The river Saravati changed course. Plus the dam was deliberately destroyed sorta like the way Americans killed the buffaloes to conquer the Natives in America.

LeBrok
04-04-14, 05:04
The area has risen according to satellite images and readings and there are leftover river marks. The river Saravati changed course. Plus the dam was deliberately destroyed sorta like the way Americans killed the buffaloes to conquer the Natives in America.

There are many more rivers which dried up in central Asia due to climate change after Holocene Optimum. Using google earth one can find many dry river beds.
On other hand some chapters of Rigveda could have been composed by Aryans when they already lived in Indus Valley. It doesn't mean their origin was there.

Silesian
04-04-14, 07:14
Your comment makes absolutely no sense to me. Care to explain?

The steppe hypothesis does not argue against Iranic speaking people from Central Asia invading Iran and India. That's part of the theory - that there was an eastward movement as well as a westward movement, both originating from a central point on the steppe.

Do you not see the irony in trying to prove a Andronovo steppe horse and chariot model expansion; the first god of the first sentence is connected with oceans, not steppe. Now why would a bunch of R1a Z93 conquering elite speaking Indo-European language bother mixing ocean gods with the horse and chariot? Remember they buried their dead with chariots and horses in kurgans, why would they not mention that? Did they have a Varuṇa in Andronovo or Kurgan Ukraine or Tocharians? There is a somewhat similar Aruna in Hittite mythology if you are curious.




1. SLIGHT us not Varuṇa

In Vedic religion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Vedic_religion), Varuna (Sanskrit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit) Varuṇa वरुण, Malay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malay_language): Baruna) or Waruna, is a god of the water (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water) and of the celestial ocean (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_ocean), as well as a god of law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law) of the underwater (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater) world. A Makara (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makara_%28Hindu_mythology%29) is his mount. In Hindu mythology (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_mythology), Varuna continued to be considered the god (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deva_%28Hinduism%29) of all forms of the water element (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ap_%28water%29), particularly the oceans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean).


Aruna is a sea god (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_god) in Hittite mythology (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_mythology), a son of the healing and magic goddess (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goddess) Kamrusepa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamrusepa).[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aruna_%28Hittite_mythology%29#cite_note-isbn0-87395-062-3-1) Aruna is also the Hittite word for "sea", and like Kamrusepa may also refer to the god of the sea.

Silesian
04-04-14, 07:30
I'm sorry but I can't take Dr. S. kalyanaraman seriously. He is sort of expert on Vedic/Rigveda, but not much of an expert in archeology, genetics, or dr. in linguistics. It is hard to find his bio to learn something about him. Is this the guy with PhD in public administration?:
http://www.sdctbheemili.org/biography.php?id=21
What is he a doctor of?

Regardless of his education, I just couldn't follow his lectures and his logic at all, and he calls other "monkeys", whomever doesn't agree with his "maticulat" logic. He pulls out supposed facts from Rigveda not even once mentioning that Rigveda had only oral tradition and was written down first time around 500 AD! To rely on human memory and not making mistakes through 1,000 years in changing culture and language is very tricky.

We should add that main composition of Rig Veda comes from around 1,500 BCE, therefore not earlier than Indo-Iranians showed as a culture in South Asia. Indo-Iranians have time from 2,000 BCE to 1,500 BCE to get to Indus Valley. Which agrees with Steppe theory.


I will not contest anything here that you post. In fact I will give you 100% benefit of doubt in your favour. All I ask is you show some type of physical proof of these R1a-93/94 invaders. Buried chariots.Horse remains that coincide with the arrival of R1a-z93/94 according to your theory. Kurgans with similar burial style to steppe, Andronovo, or Ukraine, Volga, or wherever else you like to link. Perhaps, even any examples of genocide that would coincide with an invasion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda


I think Rigveda is helpful to learn about Indo-Iranians, but not in the way dr. Kalyanaraman uses it.
I honestly cannot say, I do not know Vedic Sanskrit.

Vedic Sanskrit is an Old Indo-Aryan language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Indo-Aryan_language). It is the spoken ancestor of liturgical Sanskrit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit), and an early descendant of Proto-Indo-Iranian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Iranian). It is closely related to Avestan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avestan_language), the oldest preserved Iranian language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_language). Vedic Sanskrit is the oldest attested language of the Indo-Iranian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranian_language_family) branch of the Indo-European family (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages).

If you can show any sample of Vedic Sanskrit mentioning Kurgan/Andronovo region/territory, perhaps I would be able to better understand your line of thought.

LeBrok
04-04-14, 08:18
I will not contest anything here that you post. In fact I will give you 100% benefit of doubt in your favour. All I ask is you show some type of physical proof of these R1a-93/94 invaders. Buried chariots.Horse remains that coincide with the arrival of R1a-z93/94 according to your theory. Kurgans with similar burial style to steppe, Andronovo, or Ukraine, Volga, or wherever else you like to link. Perhaps, even any examples of genocide that would coincide with an invasion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda

I'm not familiar with any sites in India to tell you that. However if Rig Veda was mostly compiled in mid second millenium BC it would give Aryans about 500 years to adopt some local customs and traditions, burials included.
But lets reverse the direction of IE spread from India. How do you explain IE kurgan burial practices, use of horses and war chariots, and revert to mostly pastoralist lifestyle from farming, right after they left India? There are no archeological sites showing Indus Valley people conquest of the Steppe. Are even better, there archeological sites all the way to the Europe. It is much harder to explain movement from India to Europe than only possible lack of conquest of Indus Valley, otherwise we see their movements into Europe and South Asia to Iran area.
Pay attention that many cities were abandoned and local economy collapses, population moves east between 1,900 and 1,500 BCE, right about the time of Aryan invasion.

About Harappa:

Archaeology[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Harappa&action=edit&section=3)]


Ravi Aspect of the Hakra phase, c. 3300 – 2800 BC.The excavators of the site have proposed the following chronology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periodization_of_the_Indus_Valley_Civilization) of Harappa's occupation:[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harappa#cite_note-unesco-3)


Kot Dijian (Early Harappan) phase, c. 2800 – 2600 BC.
Harappan Phase, c. 2600 – 1900 BC.
Transitional Phase, c. 1900 – 1800 BC.
Late Harappan Phase, c. 1800 – 1300 BC.

By far the most exquisite and obscure artifacts unearthed to date are the small, square steatite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steatite) (soapstone) seals engraved with human or animal motifs.[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harappa#cite_note-13) A large number of seals have been found at such sites as Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa. Many bear pictographic inscriptions generally thought to be a form of writing or script. Despite the efforts of philologists from all parts of the world, and despite the use of modern cryptographic analysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptography), the signs remain undeciphered. It is also unknown if they reflect proto-Dravidian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dravidian_languages) or other non-Vedic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_period) language(s). The ascription of Indus Valley Civilization iconography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iconography) and epigraphy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigraphy) to historically known cultures is extremely problematic, in part due to the rather tenuous archaeological evidence of such claims, as well as the projection of modern South Asian political concerns onto the archaeological record of the area. This is especially evident in the radically varying interpretations of Harappan material culture as seen from both Pakistan and India-based scholars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harappa

As it says there was transitional face about the mentioned time. Language of pre transitional scripts wasn't deciphered because it is not Vedic.
Archeology says that there was no Indo European influence of any sort there pre 2,000 BCE.

Also:

The termination of the Harappan tradition at Harappa falls between 1900 and 1500 BCE

Please look at the big picture and don't conclude anything from few details, which might or might not be true. We don't know everything yet. The big picture however points to Indo-Iranians coming from the Steppe conquering most of South Asia.

All your counter arguments come for videos of mystic hindu gurus or supposed vedic scholar, both of Indian nationality. Don't you think they might be ethnically partial to the subject, not mentioning lacking proper knowledge in relevant fields?

Aberdeen
04-04-14, 10:58
Do you not see the irony in trying to prove a Andronovo steppe horse and chariot model expansion; the first god of the first sentence is connected with oceans, not steppe. Now why would a bunch of R1a Z93 conquering elite speaking Indo-European language bother mixing ocean gods with the horse and chariot? Remember they buried their dead with chariots and horses in kurgans, why would they not mention that? Did they have a Varuṇa in Andronovo or Kurgan Ukraine or Tocharians? There is a somewhat similar Aruna in Hittite mythology if you are curious.

I don't see any irony in the idea that an Indo-European God who used to be a Sky God associated with rain later becoming associated with the ocean, and I don't see what that has to do with Goga's theories about the Zagros Mountains. Here's what Encyclopedia Mythica has to say about Varuna:

"Though he only has about a dozen hymns addressed to him in the Rig Veda (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/r/rig_veda.html), Varuna seems to be one of the most important of the Vedic gods. In pre-Vedic times, he was the supreme lord of the cosmos, the keeper of divine order, the bringer of rain, the enforcer of contracts. He is called omnipotent and omniscient; he is responsible for the sun to move in the sky, for day and night to stay separate, and for the earth to keep its form; he watches the flight of every bird, is present at every gathering, and knows every thought. His name means "he who covers", and this probably refers to the sky. Varuna is the keeper of the cosmic order, a force called rta (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/r/rta.html). It is rta which keeps everything working as it should, and Varuna's role as the one who governs rta makes him very important indeed. He is very closely linked to the god Mitra (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/m/mitra.html). Varuna is one of the Adityas (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/adityas.html) and considered to be an asura (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/asuras.html), when those beings were still god-like and had not yet degenerated into demons. He is also associated with the moon and Soma (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/s/soma.html), in Soma's incarnation as the drink of the gods. Varuna is seen as a white man in golden armor riding a Makara (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/m/makara.html) (a sea monster), holding a noose or lasso made from a snake. Varuna is the keeper of the celestial waters, those which flow from the openings in the sky in the form of rain. He was worshiped with veneration and a healthy amount of fear, for as an asura Varuna did have his sinister aspects and was known to punish mortals who did not keep their word. He was the cosmic hangman and his usual method of punishment was to capture the offender with his noose. He was also a lord of the dead, a position he shared with Yama, and could confer immortality if he so chose.

In Vedic times, the worship of Varuna fell off as he was supplanted by Indra (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/i/indra.html) as king of the gods. One possible reason for this may go back to Indra's most famous exploit. When Vritra (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/v/vritra.html) stole all the waters of the universe, the waters which Varuna was in charge of, it was Indra who had to fight the demon and get them back. It may have been because of this that Indra was able to supplant the overlordship of Varuna and become lord of the gods himself. Varuna then became god of the oceans and rivers; still important, but with hardly the grandeur he once had. The souls of those who drowned went to him, and he was attended by the nagas.Varuna faded away with the ascendancy of Shiva (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/s/shiva.html) and Vishnu (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/v/vishnu.html). His lofty position may have lived on, however, for he may be the same as the Zoroastrian supreme god Ahura Mazda (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/ahura_mazda.html)."

Although I'm dubious about quoting Wikipedia unless it leads me back to some other source, here's what it has to say about the Hittite God Aruna. Note the reference to the Black Sea.

"Various origins of this name are proposed. It was highy possible that it has a same origin as the name of the Vedic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic) god Varuna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varuna). It could also be a reconstruction of the Indo-European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_language) mori or Greek words for Black Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea), μόρυχος. A Hattic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattic_language) origin through the place name Arianna has also been suggested. A connection with Indo-European er-, or- (‘stir, move’), and thus the Hittite name is believed to have a same origin as Sanskrit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit) arṇava ."

Nobody1
04-04-14, 12:26
I think the only question is whether it was an Indo-Aryan <invasion> or a <migration> judging by the Rigveda itself it was an invasion and judging by the language of the Rigveda undoubtedly a new people emerged in the Indus-valley; The Indus-valley civ. (IVC) was in stark decline by the 'late phase' (1900-1300BC); In The Rigveda IV.57 we are informed that the Indo-Aryans practised agriculture and the word for plough is lāngala which has been identified as an Austric loan-word hence the sign of adoption of agriculture from the pre-existing pops.; Which suggests the invasion was not a total destruction but as always (nature of Indo-European migrations) a fusion of pre-existing and emerging peoples; Some of the "native" theories coming from India about the Indo-Aryans seem to be more based on ideology than archaeology;

Silesian
04-04-14, 15:25
I'm not familiar with any sites in India to tell you that.
I'm patient . When you do find a sample chariot, horse remains, kurgan I hope you can share it with us.

However if Rig Veda was mostly compiled in mid second millenium BC it would give Aryans about 500 years to adopt some local customs and traditions, burials included. What exactly were the customs they brought with them, that are known, and scientifically verified in the vedas?




But lets reverse the direction of IE spread from India. How do you explain IE kurgan burial practices, use of horses and war chariots, and revert to mostly pastoralist lifestyle from farming, right after they left India? There are no archeological sites showing Indus Valley people conquest of the Steppe. Are even better, there archeological sites all the way to the Europe. It is much harder to explain movement from India to Europe than only possible lack of conquest of Indus Valley, otherwise we see their movements into Europe and South Asia to Iran area.
What were the Indo-European speaking Tocharians? Farmers and or invading R1a -Z93 Warriars? I'm also patient to see any chariots and horse remains that match India and Andronovo time frame. Even any customs mentioned in the Vedas of similar pattern or nature.

The big picture however points to Indo-Iranians coming from the Steppe conquering most of South Asia.

I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. Or the brightest crayon in the pack . I'm wired for hard physical proof. Like I said, when you find the horses, chariots and or weapons, evidence of genocide, or anything else that points to an invasion, post it.


All your counter arguments come for videos of mystic hindu gurus or supposed vedic scholar, both of Indian nationality. Don't you think they might be ethnically partial to the subject, not mentioning lacking proper knowledge in relevant fields?
Simpletons like myself have a affinity for the mystic stuff. However , post your physical and tangible evidence. Even one sample chariot would be interesting.

Silesian
04-04-14, 15:39
I don't see any irony in the idea that an Indo-European God who used to be a Sky God associated with rain later becoming associated with the ocean, and I don't see what that has to do with Goga's theories about the Zagros Mountains.
Are the Hittites part of PIE? Did they originate in Ukraine/Kurgan, Andoronovo, Volga. Did they practice kurgan burials? Were they farmers? Is it a coincidence they have a similar sea god as in the vedas?



Although I'm dubious about quoting Wikipedia unless it leads me back to some other source, here's what it has to say about the Hittite God Aruna.
Was there a connection between the Hittites and Indo-Europeans that you say arrived/invaded from the steppe into India, became farmers and adopted the local customs and sea gods and burial techniques; and left no trace of there past in terms of hard physical evidence like chariots and horses?


1. SLIGHT us not Varuṇa, Aryaman, or Mitra, Ṛbhukṣan, Indra, Āyu, or the Maruts,

What is your take on Mitra, and Indra? Are these gods from steppe also?

Aberdeen
04-04-14, 16:33
Are the Hittites part of PIE? Did they originate in Ukraine/Kurgan, Andoronovo, Volga. Did they practice kurgan burials? Were they farmers? Is it a coincidence they have a similar sea god as in the vedas?



Was there a connection between the Hittites and Indo-Europeans that you say arrived/invaded from the steppe into India, became farmers and adopted the local customs and sea gods and burial techniques; and left no trace of there past in terms of hard physical evidence like chariots and horses?



What is your take on Mitra, and Indra? Are these gods from steppe also?

I'm beginning to think you're playing some kind of silly game. A quick search of the internet would yield the information that the Hittites spoke a language that's part of the Anatolian branch of the Indo-European group of languages, and that Mithra and Indra were part of Zoroastrian religion, which means they were likely deities in the original Proto-Indo-European religion. And Indra was an important deity in the belief system of the Mittnni. As for the chariots you were asking LeBrok about, read the Rig Veda yourself - there are good English language translations on the internet, and the chariot figures quite largely in the Rig Veda. There are lots of later Vedic material that mentions chariots, right up to the time the story of Krishna and Arjuna was written. Ever heard of Krishna's chariot?

I realize that Hindu nationalists have created literally hundreds of websites repeating the same comments about how the Aryan Invasion theory has been disproved, but when do they ever quote an actual archeologist, linguist or expert on comparative mythology? And I realize that the work of the archeologist Wheeler has often been criticized by other academics who've never really looked at the issue, because they feel guilty about the way the Aryan Invasion theory has been misused by racists. However, if people think Wheeler was mistaken in saying he found the remains of burnt walls and unburied dead at Harappa, why not allow clarify the matter by allowing more excavations by qualified archeologists who don't have a nationalist axe to grind?

Silesian
04-04-14, 18:06
As for the chariots you were asking LeBrok about, read the Rig Veda yourself - there are good English language translations on the internet, and the chariot figures quite largely in the Rig Veda. There are lots of later Vedic material that mentions chariots, right up to the time the story of Krishna and Arjuna was written. Ever heard of Krishna's chariot?

Does any of the information from wiki prove or disprove your theories of Kurgan R1a Z 93/94 .invasion from steppe region. The stepp warriors who became farmers, did not leave many remains of their horses and chariots as of today; had gods representing oceans ?
Besides horses and chariots, have there been any weapons found in archeological sites, confirming your ideas; like arrowheads, spears, axes for example?


History

Proto-Indo-Iranians

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0c/Andronovo_culture.png/250px-Andronovo_culture.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Andronovo_culture.png) https://bits.wikimedia.org/static-1.23wmf19/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Andronovo_culture.png)
The area of the spoke-wheeled chariot finds within the Sintashta-Petrovka (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta-Petrovka) culture is indicated in purple.


Development of the spoke-wheeled chariot is associated with the Proto-Indo-Iranians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Iranians). The earliest fully developed war chariots known are from the chariot burials (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot_burial) of the Andronovo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture) (Timber-Grave) sites of the Sintashta-Petrovka (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta-Petrovka) culture in modern Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) and Kazakhstan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan) dating from around 2000 BCE.
The chariot must not necessarily be regarded as a marker for Indo-European or Indo-Iranian presence.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratha#cite_note-2) According to Raulwing, it is an undeniable fact that only comparative Indo-European linguistics is able to furnish the methodological basics of the hypothesis of a "PIE chariot", in other words: "Ausserhalb der Sprachwissenschaft winkt keine Rettung![3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratha#cite_note-3)"[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratha#cite_note-4)[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratha#cite_note-5)
The earliest evidence for chariots in southern Central Asia (on the Oxus) dates to the Achaemenid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaemenid) period (apart from chariots harnessed by oxen, as seen on petroglyphs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroglyph)).[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratha#cite_note-6) No Andronovian chariot burial has been found south of the Oxus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxus).[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratha#cite_note-7)



Have there been any examples of barbaric conquest, by the Indo-Aryans from Andronovo, for example the Romans invaded Britain. Archeological finds.


Dozens of skulls excavated in London have provided the first evidence of a possible burial ground for Roman headhunting victims in the capital.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-25744163

LeBrok
04-04-14, 18:58
I'm patient . When you do find a sample chariot, horse remains, kurgan I hope you can share it with us.
What exactly were the customs they brought with them, that are known, and scientifically verified in the vedas?
Why don't you do some work too. I've asked you a question: when domesticated horse showed up in India first, before of after 2,000 BCE?
And let's do some more work:
There are obvious evidences of chariots in art and architecture, I've seen it myself. Trace the date when it showed up first, before or after 2,000 BCE.
What about language shift from non IE to IE after 1,800? Attested by finds of various tablets.

Silesian
04-04-14, 19:36
Why don't you do some work too. I've asked you a question: when domesticated horse showed up in India first, before of after 2,000 BCE?
And let's do some more work:
There are obvious evidences of chariots in art and architecture, I've seen it myself. Trace the date when it showed up first, before or after 2,000 BCE.
What about language shift from non IE to IE after 1,800? Attested by finds of various tables.

I'm even willing to settle for some beads or trinkets at this point. There has to be some physical proof to show the migration/conquest of R1a-93/94 from the Andronovo/steppe, to the Sarasvati River (Sanskrit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit): सरस्वती नदी sárasvatī nadī) Rigvedic rivers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigvedic_rivers) mentioned in ancient Sanskrit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit) texts. .
Or is it 100% anecdotal evidence ?

Domesticated horses did not seem to be a high point in sanskrit veda text? Did the migration of R1a-z93/94 originate from the steppe/Andronovo to sarasvati to Mitanni?
To the Mitanni and Hittites horse training and chariots were perhaps more important. Why would they mention training, while the sanskrit vedas have very little information on training horses and chariots ? All three had some similar gods, didn't they? Did Hittite/Mitanni/Vedic sanskrit gods, knowledge of horse/chariot, language originate in steppe/Andronovo/Volga culture, and spread with R1a z93/94?

Kikkuli, "master horse trainer (assussanni, virtually Sanskrit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit) aśva-sana-) of the land Mitanni (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitanni)" (LÚA-AŠ-ŠU-UŠ-ŠA-AN-NI ŠA KUR URUMI-IT-TA-AN-NI) was the author of a chariot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot) horse training (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_training) text written in the Hittite language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_language), dating to the Hittite New Kingdom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_Empire) (around 1400 BC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1400_BC)). The text is notable both for the information it provides about the development of Indo-European languages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages) and for its content.......The Kikkuli Text addresses solely the conditioning, not education, of the horse.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kikkuli#cite_note-3) The Mitannians were acknowledged leaders in horse training and as a result of the horse training techniques learned from Kikkuli, Hittite charioteers forged an empire of the area which is now Turkey, Syria, Lebanon and Northern Iraq.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kikkuli#cite_note-4) Surprisingly, the regime used 'interval training' techniques similar to those used so successfully by Three Day Eventers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Day_Event), endurance riders and others today and whose principles have only been studied by equine sports medicine researchers in the past 30 years.[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kikkuli#cite_note-5).

Sile
04-04-14, 21:09
I will ask again

Why in this Underhill paper is italians and tatars together and isolated from the others?

Angela
05-04-14, 00:25
Don't every one turn around and fire at once...

I haven't researched the India aspect of this in detail, or chariots, really, but I have been digging around for information about horses on the steppe, as well as about routes from the southern end of the Caspian.

Have you guys read this?

Michael Franchetti: From Sheep To (Some) Horses.
I can't give you direct access because it's behind a pay wall if you go through google, but if you go to this google scholar page, you can access a full pdf
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=Michael+Frachetti&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C33&as_sdtp=

He makes the same point in his talk at Penn to which Silesian provided a link. It's about a lot more than wheat seeds...I almost didn't watch it, but I'm glad that I did. He needs a publicist!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7qq9__GWN0&list=PL286E934A56954D08

And then there's this, "Multiregional Emergence of Mobile Pastoralism"
It can also be accessed through that Google Scholar page...
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=Michael+Frachetti&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C33&as_sdtp=

The latest paper comes from one of his students and has been posted by Dienekes, but I can't find a full pdf of it yet.
It's called Spengler et al, When Pastoralist Met Farmer"

If any of you take a look at these, I'll be interested to hear your take on the material.

LeBrok
05-04-14, 06:53
Don't every one turn around and fire at once...

I haven't researched the India aspect of this in detail, or chariots, really, but I have been digging around for information about horses on the steppe, as well as about routes from the southern end of the Caspian.

Have you guys read this?

Michael Franchetti: From Sheep To (Some) Horses.
I can't give you direct access because it's behind a pay wall if you go through google, but if you go to this google scholar page, you can access a full pdf
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=Michael+Frachetti&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C33&as_sdtp=

He makes the same point in his talk at Penn to which Silesian provided a link. It's about a lot more than wheat seeds...I almost didn't watch it, but I'm glad that I did. He needs a publicist!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7qq9__GWN0&list=PL286E934A56954D08

And then there's this, "Multiregional Emergence of Mobile Pastoralism"
It can also be accessed through that Google Scholar page...
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=Michael+Frachetti&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C33&as_sdtp=

The latest paper comes from one of his students and has been posted by Dienekes, but I can't find a full pdf of it yet.
It's called Spengler et al, When Pastoralist Met Farmer"

If any of you take a look at these, I'll be interested to hear your take on the material.
Thanks Angela. I didn't have time to go through the papers, but I really enjoyed synthesis of it during the presentation on youtube, from Dr Michael Franchetti.
Very interesting use of wheat grains during funeral although it wasn't consumed or grown by these people. The effort was great to bring these grains from South Asia. Interesting was a coment during question period that the grain could have been used for making beer like alcohol. One thing is certain that grain was something precious to be shared with deceased. Alcoholic drink can explain a great value they've put in this ritual. Although no alcohol residue was found so far in ceramics.

There was also a nice synthesis of diet of central asiatic cultures. This actually goes in face of hypothesis that Indo Europeans had come from India or Near East. If farmers moved from south to north they would have tried to lead their agricultural ways of life. We can't see it in any of this central asian cultures. The continuity of these cultures reach 4,000 BCE into BC and they were strictly pastoralists nomads. When we go to Europe we also can't see any farmers turning strictly pastoralists when migrating north. Honestly who would go north to change successful way of life if one can't grow wheat there, and from building first civilizations, to becoming wandering and poorer nomads. I think so far we don't have even one example of such transformation. Once you become a farmer there is no going back. That's pretty much a nail in a coffin of out of Indo Europeans coming out of India, or Fertile Crescent.

It is more natural and logical for poorer nomads invading the rich South, the rich farmers, becoming a ruling class and living from work of farmers. Such thing is attested by pastoralist Mongols and their invasion of the rest of Eurasia. They have even slowly became farmers in some places, places like south Ukraine and Crimea.

Silesian
05-04-14, 08:01
Don't every one turn around and fire at once...

I haven't researched the India aspect of this in detail, or chariots, really, but I have been digging around for information about horses on the steppe, as well as about routes from the southern end of the Caspian.

Have you guys read this?

He makes the same point in his talk at Penn to which Silesian provided a link. It's about a lot more than wheat seeds...I almost didn't watch it, but I'm glad that I did. He needs a publicist!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7qq9__GWN0&list=PL286E934A56954D08



Excellent video. Cremations, very few horses, ritual grain offerings. His maps were especially informative. Thank you for posting this gem. I have a feeling we will be hearing more from professor Franchetti.

Silesian
05-04-14, 08:39
Honestly who would go north to change successful way of life if one can't grow wheat there, and from building first civilizations, to becoming wandering and poorer nomads. I think so far we don't have even one example of such transformation. Once you become a farmer there is no going back. That's pretty much a nail in a coffin of out of Indo Europeans coming out of India, or Fertile Crescent.

It is more natural and logical for poorer nomads invading the rich South, the rich farmers, becoming a ruling class and living from work of farmers. Such thing is attested by pastoralist Mongols and their invasion of the rest of Eurasia. They have even slowly became farmers in some places, places like south Ukraine and Crimea.

I don't know what this means, probably nothing. But anytime you put Italo-Celtic/Hittite/Tocharian/Phrygian in one sentence it's got to peek your interest in a PIE R1a discussion.


The r-passive (mediopassive) was initially thought to be an innovation restricted to Italo-Celtic until it was found to be a retained archaism shared with Hittite, Tocharian, and possibly Phrygian

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo-Celtic

bicicleur
05-04-14, 11:25
Don't every one turn around and fire at once...

I haven't researched the India aspect of this in detail, or chariots, really, but I have been digging around for information about horses on the steppe, as well as about routes from the southern end of the Caspian.

Have you guys read this?

Michael Franchetti: From Sheep To (Some) Horses.
I can't give you direct access because it's behind a pay wall if you go through google, but if you go to this google scholar page, you can access a full pdf
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=Michael+Frachetti&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C33&as_sdtp=

He makes the same point in his talk at Penn to which Silesian provided a link. It's about a lot more than wheat seeds...I almost didn't watch it, but I'm glad that I did. He needs a publicist!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7qq9__GWN0&list=PL286E934A56954D08

And then there's this, "Multiregional Emergence of Mobile Pastoralism"
It can also be accessed through that Google Scholar page...
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=Michael+Frachetti&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C33&as_sdtp=

The latest paper comes from one of his students and has been posted by Dienekes, but I can't find a full pdf of it yet.
It's called Spengler et al, When Pastoralist Met Farmer"

If any of you take a look at these, I'll be interested to hear your take on the material.

Hi Angela,

would you know more about this ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majiayao_culture

a group of Neolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic) communities who lived primarily in the upper Yellow River (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_River) region in eastern Gansu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gansu)

The culture existed from 3100 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3100_BC) to2700 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2700_BC). The earliest discoveries of copper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper) and bronze (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze) objects in China occur at Majiayao sites

there is no source mentioned for this

I wonder, could copper and bronze have come through the Ganxi corridor that early?

Nobody1
05-04-14, 12:16
I don't know what this means, probably nothing. But anytime you put Italo-Celtic/Hittite/Tocharian/Phrygian in one sentence it's got to peek your interest in a PIE R1a discussion.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo-Celtic

The similarities that are shared by Italic/Keltic/Tocharian like the r-endings (passive/deponent) as also in Hittite or the ā-subjunctive signalises the development from the common origins out of which these branches emerged from; An intermediate (isolate) language unit is thus not given (Watkins 1966); What this means with Y-DNA Hg's only known the more old corpses are examined i.e. the actual carriers;

oriental
05-04-14, 20:07
The Sahara was not always a desert:

http://www.livescience.com/4180-sahara-desert-lush-populated.html

In the Bible, when Abraham went into Canaan, a land of milk and honey, had turned it into a desert and had to go to Egypt by Joseph's time to get food. Shepherds bring desertification wherever they go as the sheep and goats don't leave any green vegetation in the land especially in grasslands where there is not much rainfall. The browning of the land makes the air hotter thus the air is not depositing the moisture to the land. The entire Middle East and Central Asia were overrun with shepherds. Even today there are nomadic sheperds in Central Asia, Iran, Kazakhstan, etc. migrating annually to mountainous grasslands as it is only in the mountains where the moisture is released as the air is cooled.

In the U.S. we don't see too many "sheep-boy" movies but cowboy movies because they knew shepherds would destroy the grasslands. The ranchers drove away or killed the shepherds.

Horses were originally in dinner plates before they were ridden. Anyway the Saudis claim that the horse was domesticated in Arabia 9,000 years ago i.e. 7,000 BC. Well the Sahara, much of Arabia and the Middle East were lush grasslands before the shepherds turned the region into deserts. The only place where there were empires without the horse were in Mexico (Aztecs) and Peru(Incas). Empire started in the Middle East with horse if the horse was also domesticated in Arabia then it explains why empires started there with Sargon. The simplest solution is the best explanation and the proximity of the horse culture in Arabia shows early adaptaion to the horse.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14658678

the domestication of the horse in Eurasia:

http://horsetalk.co.nz/2011/10/28/evidence-for-horse-domestication-clearer/#axzz2y2C6Nq3k

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120507154107.htm

http://www.history.com/news/horse-domestication-happened-across-eurasia-study-shows

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-17943974

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1900351/Tracing-the-History-of-Horse-Evolution-and-Domestication-Year-In-Review-2012

http://research.vet.upenn.edu/HavemeyerEquineBehaviorLabHomePage/ReferenceLibraryHavemeyerEquineBehaviorLab

/HavemeyerWorkshops/HorseBehaviorandWelfare1316June2002/HorseBehaviorandWelfare2/DomesticationBreedDiversificationandEarlyHis/tabid/3127/Default.aspx

(http://research.vet.upenn.edu/HavemeyerEquineBehaviorLabHomePage/ReferenceLibraryHavemeyerEquineBehaviorLab/HavemeyerWorkshops/HorseBehaviorandWelfare1316June2002/HorseBehaviorandWelfare2/DomesticationBreedDiversificationandEarlyHis/tabid/3127/Default.aspx)http://fubini.swarthmore.edu/~ENVS2/S2007/llam1/horses1.html

I also have concerns when archaeologists say there is "art" in the caves. There were no school books or encyclopedia in those days. Those "art" probably served guides as there were no schools. They served to identify their dinner for their kids when they asked questions and also grow up to hunt the "right" animals.

Silesian
05-04-14, 20:34
This Indo-European migration/expansion model (of the Anatolian hypothesis) does not reflect any of the actual Archaeological complexes and their continuity; And that is largely the problem with the Anatolian hypothesis;

http://s30.postimg.org/ruf48fuk1/IE0001.png

So if Underhill et al is correct about the place and date than a trans-Caucasus migration seems the most likely (in correspondence with the Archaeological reality);

Some wine producing areas in India R1a-z93/94 ?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/India_Wine.png



Do you think the R1a-z93/94 domesticated horse trainers from Andronovo taught the locals how to make wine [PIE*win-o-] besides chariots?

The English word "wine" comes from the Proto-Germanic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Germanic_language) *winam, an early borrowing from the Latin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) vinum, "wine" or "(grape) vine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vine)", itself derived from the Proto-Indo-European (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language) stem *win-o- (cf. Hittite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_language): wiyana; Lycian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycian_language): oino; Ancient Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek): οἶνος oinos; Aeolic Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolic_Greek): ϝ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digamma)οῖνος woinos).[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine#cite_note-9)[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine#cite_note-10)[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine#cite_note-11)


During the Vedic period (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_period) of the 2nd and 1st millennia, the Aryan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_peoples) tribes of the region were known for their indulgence in intoxicating drink and it seems probable that wine was a current beverage. The religious text of the Vedas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedas) mentions at least one alcoholic drink that may have been wine related -sura (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sura_%28alcoholic_beverage%29) which seems to have been a type of rice wine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice_wine) that was fermented (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermentation_%28wine%29) with honey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Word_for_Wine_in_European_languages.svg

LeBrok
06-04-14, 09:07
The Sahara was not always a desert:

http://www.livescience.com/4180-sahara-desert-lush-populated.html

In the Bible, when Abraham went into Canaan, a land of milk and honey, had turned it into a desert and had to go to Egypt by Joseph's time to get food. Shepherds bring desertification wherever they go as the sheep and goats don't leave any green vegetation in the land especially in grasslands where there is not much rainfall. The browning of the land makes the air hotter thus the air is not depositing the moisture to the land. The entire Middle East and Central Asia were overrun with shepherds. Even today there are nomadic sheperds in Central Asia, Iran, Kazakhstan, etc. migrating annually to mountainous grasslands as it is only in the mountains where the moisture is released as the air is cooled.

Can you explain why Sahara is still a desert even though there and no sheep and goats anymore for thousands of years? Also, why Serengeti is so green every year in spite of millions of gazelles, zebras, and other grazing animals "devastating" it every year?

LeBrok
06-04-14, 09:10
Some wine producing areas in India R1a-z93/94 ?

Do you think the R1a-z93/94 domesticated horse trainers from Andronovo taught the locals how to make wine [PIE*win-o-] besides chariots?


I'm not sure what you want to say here. Did Indian word for wine spread with Indo-Europeans from Indus Valley?

Taranis
06-04-14, 11:51
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Word_for_Wine_in_European_languages.svg


I'm not sure what you want to say here. Did Indian word for win spread with Indo-Europeans from Indus Valley?

The word for 'wine' clearly originated in the Mediterranean:

In all Northern European language families (Celtic, Germanic, Uralic, Slavic) the word is obviously borrowed from Latin vīnum. I'm find it ironic that Silesian's map is cut off in the Middle East because there's a Semitic cognate: Hebrew "jajin", which exhibits the Canaanite sound mutation of initial *w- to *j-.

Silesian
06-04-14, 14:29
I'm not sure what you want to say here. Did Indian word for win spread with Indo-Europeans from Indus Valley?

The oldest production of grapes into wine is from the region Goga shows his theory of PIE. How did Proto Indo Europeans acquire the word for wine, from the growth of grapes on the steppe? From the growth of grapes in India?

Silesian
06-04-14, 14:31
The word for 'wine' clearly originated in the Mediterranean:


What about Phillistines?

The Philistines were also renowned for both their production and consumption of alcoholic beverages. Numerous finds have exposed a well-managed spirits industry, from breweries and wineries to retail outlets that advertised beer, wine, and strong drink. Among the most numerous artifacts unearthed from Philistine ruins are beer mugs and wine craters (large drinking bowls). The story of Samson's wedding feast alludes to the Philistine practice of engaging in week-long drinking parties, as the Hebrew word mishkeh, translated as "strong drink" in Judges 14:10, indicates a "drinking feast."[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines#cite_note-21)

What about Proto-Kartvelian and grapes/wine? What about Proto-Kartvelian connection with Proto-Indo-European? What about BMAC, languages like Munda,Brahui[Dravidian] can we rule out this region for the growth of grapes and introduction of wine in this region and the Proto-Indo-European language?

kamani
06-04-14, 15:41
The Mediteranean also has the word krasi meaning: wine in Greek, wine-grapes in Albanian.

MOESAN
06-04-14, 16:04
Does any of the information from wiki prove or disprove your theories of Kurgan R1a Z 93/94 .invasion from steppe region. The stepp warriors who became farmers, did not leave many remains of their horses and chariots as of today; had gods representing oceans ?
Besides horses and chariots, have there been any weapons found in archeological sites, confirming your ideas; like arrowheads, spears, axes for example?


Have there been any examples of barbaric conquest, by the Indo-Aryans from Andronovo, for example the Romans invaded Britain. Archeological finds.


http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-25744163

it is not in the center of the topic but I see on this Wiki map a spot 'Andronovo' in the Western part of the map: but the true Andronovo spot is between the Ob and Ienissei rivers, in the Novosibirsk region, very far in North and East!!! by the way I recall someones think Andronovo culture was turkic and not I-Ean : I don't agree for linguistic reasons (more I-E Finno-Ugric contacts than I-E turkic ones, if I don't mistake)

Silesian
06-04-14, 16:51
The Mediteranean also has the word krasi meaning: wine in Greek, wine-grapes in Albanian.

What are the oldest known areas of Greek viniculture ? Is there a connection with the following I.E.groups Latin, Latin,Phrygian, Albanian, Hittite, Luwian,Armenian and PIE for grapes and wine?


it is not in the center of the topic but I see on this Wiki map a spot 'Andronovo' in the Western part of the map: but the true Andronovo spot is between the Ob and Ienissei rivers, in the Novosibirsk region, very far in North and East!!! by the way I recall someones think Andronovo culture was turkic and not I-Ean : I don't agree for linguistic reasons (more I-E Finno-Ugric contacts than I-E turkic ones, if I don't mistake)


Did PIE R1a-z93/94 produce and drink wine or mead in the Ob and Ienissei rivers, ; Novosibirsk region? Did the Proto-Uralic neighbors have a word for wine, or mead. Are there PIE words for wine and mead that were transferred from Uralic from R1a z93/94 ?

Taranis
06-04-14, 17:09
What about Phillistines?

What about them? They certainly didn't introduce wine production in the Middle East. The *w- > *j- sound shift occured before the "Sea Peoples" invasion, and it is actually attested in Ugaritic (closely related with the Canaanite languages) and in Canaanite names (attested in the Amarna letters, mid-14th century BC, roughly contemporary to Ugaritic). The Philistines (part of the Sea Peoples) were present in Canaan only from the Bronze Age Collapse onwards.


What about Proto-Kartvelian and grapes/wine? What about Proto-Kartvelian connection with Proto-Indo-European?

Proto-Indo-European and Kartvelic languages had close contact with another, and the Georgian word for "wine" is without a doubt related.


What about BMAC, languages like Munda,Brahui[Dravidian] can we rule out this region for the growth of grapes and introduction of wine in this region and the Proto-Indo-European language?

The Proto-Indo-European word for "alcoholic beverage" (not necessarily 'wine', but certainly in most Indo-Iranic languages) is a different one, attested in Sanskrit as "madira", Persian "may", Ossetian "мыд" (mɨd). It has further cognates in Greek "μεθω" ("methō" - to intoxicate), Celtic (Welsh "medd"), Germanic (German "Met", English "mead") as well as Slavic (Russian "мед"/med) and Tocharian (Toch. B "mīt", poss. borrowed into Chinese), but in the latter two, the meaning was shifted meaning to 'honey' instead. In my opinion, the Proto-Indo-Europeans definitely knew alcoholic beverages (not necessarily "wine", but I have my doubts that some of the alcoholic beverages drunk in the Mediterranean that were called "wine" would pass modern EU regulations regarding wine... :rolleyes2: ), the word "wine" was picked up only later.

Silesian
06-04-14, 17:30
What about them? They certainly didn't introduce wine production in the Middle East. The *w- > *j- sound shift occured before the "Sea Peoples" invasion, and it is actually attested in Ugaritic (closely related with the Canaanite languages) and in Canaanite names (attested in the Amarna letters, mid-14th century BC, roughly contemporary to Ugaritic). The Philistines (part of the Sea Peoples) were present in Canaan only from the Bronze Age Collapse onwards.
Is it possible they came from the region in Aegean Sea or even Western Anatolia?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PYGoGfyx6k @2:36



Proto-Indo-European and Kartvelic languages had close contact with another, and the Georgian word for "wine" is without a doubt related.

Is it possible wine making spread from this close contact to India?




The Proto-Indo-European word for "alcoholic beverage" (not necessarily 'wine', but certainly in most Indo-Iranic languages) is a different one, attested in Sanskrit as "madira", Persian "may", Ossetian "мыд" (mɨd). It has further cognates in Greek "μεθω" ("methō" - to intoxicate), Celtic (Welsh "medd"), Germanic (German "Met", English "mead") as well as Slavic (Russian "мед"/med) and Tocharian (Toch. B "mīt", poss. borrowed into Chinese), but in the latter two, the meaning was shifted meaning to 'honey' instead. In my opinion, the Proto-Indo-Europeans definitely knew alcoholic beverages (not necessarily "wine", but I have my doubts that some of the alcoholic beverages drunk in the Mediterranean that were called "wine" would pass modern EU regulations regarding wine... http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/rolleyes.gif ), the word "wine" was picked up only later. Where would you put some of the oldest wine makers in history?

LeBrok
06-04-14, 17:46
What are the oldest known areas of Greek viniculture ? Is there a connection with the following I.E.groups Latin, Latin,Phrygian, Albanian, Hittite, Luwian,Armenian and PIE for grapes and wine?



Did PIE R1a-z93/94 produce and drink wine or mead in the Ob and Ienissei rivers, ; Novosibirsk region? Did the Proto-Uralic neighbors have a word for wine, or mead. Are there PIE words for wine and mead that were transferred from Uralic from R1a z93/94 ?
Wine in Novosibirsk area? Grapes can't grow so far north in such cold climate. I like Taranis' explanation of semitic origin of wine.

I'm not sure how far back alcoholic mead happened, but it is attested from pottery of Bell Beaker Culture. So we can safely assume it was also known to Cucuteni and Yamna cultures. Supposedly it is also described in Rig Veda, I've heard.

Favorite drink of steppe peoples, till modern times, was always fermented animal milk. Does Rig Veda mention fermented milk drink?

Archaeological investigations of the Botai culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botai_culture) of ancient Kazakstan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakstan) have revealed traces of milk in bowls from the site of Botai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botai), suggesting the domestication of the animal.[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumis#cite_note-outram-17) No specific evidence for its fermentation has yet been found, but considering the location of the Botai culture and the nutritional properties of mare's milk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumis#Nutritional_properties_of_mare.27s_milk), the possibility is high.
Kumis is an ancient beverage. Herodotus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus), in his 5th-century BC Histories (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histories_(Herodotus)), describes the Scythians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians) processing of mare's milk

Nobody1
06-04-14, 17:53
The oldest production of grapes into wine is from the region Goga shows his theory of PIE. How did Proto Indo Europeans acquire the word for wine, from the growth of grapes on the steppe? From the growth of grapes in India?

As far as i know - Greek Aeolic WOINOS/ϝοίνος (Latin VINUM Greek OINOS/οἶνος) and Hittite wiyana - and most prob from loan-word Semitic yayin; The vase of Latumaros (~100BC) describes wine imports from Naxos/Νάξος Sicily (Greek Ionian colony);

LeBrok
06-04-14, 17:58
This is interesting:

This map is of Lactase Persistent allele in India:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KjbtJzGEXWQ/UyvNMNFgoWI/AAAAAAAACgY/ECDYrvBNBMY/s1600/indianmilk.jpg
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/09/the-gift-of-the-gopi/#.U0F4HfldUYl

This LP hotspot in india is located in the region called "Haryana"!!!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c5/India_Haryana_locator_map.svg/250px-India_Haryana_locator_map.svg.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haryana

Silesian
06-04-14, 18:16
As far as i know - Greek Aeolic WOINOS/ϝοίνος (Latin VINUM Greek OINOS/οἶνος) and Hittite wiyana - and most prob from loan-word Semitic yayin; The vase of Latumaros (~100BC) describes wine imports from Naxos/Νάξος Sicily (Greek Ionian colony);

In your opinion where are the earliest centers for wine production, and hence where Proto-Indo-Europeans picked up the word for wine? Semitic and Levant,Swat valley, Pakistan ? Or Anatolia-Caucasus-Iran ?
Lycian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycian_language):- "oino"wine in Greek Aeolic - "woinos ". Do you agree Lycian-Luwian-Hittite? In other words Luwian is closely related to Hittite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_language). Lycian was spoken near Greek Aeoloc in western Anatolia?

Angela
06-04-14, 18:20
Thanks Angela. I didn't have time to go through the papers, but I really enjoyed synthesis of it during the presentation on youtube, from Dr Michael Franchetti.
Very interesting use of wheat grains during funeral although it wasn't consumed or grown by these people. The effort was great to bring these grains from South Asia. Interesting was a coment during question period that the grain could have been used for making beer like alcohol. One thing is certain that grain was something precious to be shared with deceased. Alcoholic drink can explain a great value they've put in this ritual. Although no alcohol residue was found so far in ceramics.

There was also a nice synthesis of diet of central asiatic cultures. This actually goes in face of hypothesis that Indo Europeans had come from India or Near East. If farmers moved from south to north they would have tried to lead their agricultural ways of life. We can't see it in any of this central asian cultures. The continuity of these cultures reach 4,000 BCE into BC and they were strictly pastoralists nomads. When we go to Europe we also can't see any farmers turning strictly pastoralists when migrating north. Honestly who would go north to change successful way of life if one can't grow wheat there, and from building first civilizations, to becoming wandering and poorer nomads. I think so far we don't have even one example of such transformation. Once you become a farmer there is no going back. That's pretty much a nail in a coffin of out of Indo Europeans coming out of India, or Fertile Crescent.

It is more natural and logical for poorer nomads invading the rich South, the rich farmers, becoming a ruling class and living from work of farmers. Such thing is attested by pastoralist Mongols and their invasion of the rest of Eurasia. They have even slowly became farmers in some places, places like south Ukraine and Crimea.

I agree with much of this, but I think a close reading of Dr. Franchetti's work presents some problems for the Anthony model of a movement straight across the steppe from west to east for all these cultures.

Just as a general proposition, this notion that the steppe is this flat unimpeded expanse of grass is inaccurate. It is crossed by mountains, gorges and rivers etc., and different societies formed in different regions. The "Kurgan" culture of the Ukraine is very different on any number of levels from that of the eastern and south-eastern regions.

Franchetti's findings, if correct, (and I don't see how they can be assailed) also show that there was a fully formed pastoralist society in Begasa far earlier than the standard model would propose.

The "Tocharians", or more precisely that society which we are assuming spoke Tocharian, is substantially different from the surrounding societies, and may have a very different source.

The proposed movement of culture (and/or peoples) from Abanasievo to the Tarim Basin is very problematical given the current state of the evidence.
It seems that some people have moved from pots are not people, to pots are always people. I don't think that either is accurate. It depends on the individual situation.
At the very least, there are multiple possible sources for these cultures, not all of them coming from the north and the west.

The route along the alluvial fans to the southeast of the Caspian and then northeast along the "Inner Asian Corridor" is highly unlikely to have only been used during this period (or the subsequent Silk Road period). Instead, it has probably been used in both directions from time immemorial, which is very interesting from a genetic perspective, when looking at the genesis and movement of the various "R1a" sub-lineages.

bicicleur
06-04-14, 18:58
The route along the alluvial fans to the southeast of the Caspian and then northeast along the "Inner Asian Corridor" is highly unlikely to have only been used during this period (or the subsequent Silk Road period). Instead, it has probably been used in both directions from time immemorial, which is very interesting from a genetic perspective, when looking at the genesis and movement of the various "R1a" sub-lineages.

This route has allready been used 22.000 years ago, when people settled in Afghanistan.
I suspect these people were R1b, coming from the Mal'ta area where the 24000 year old R boy has been found.
R2 people also came along this route, even before R1b - possibly some 25000 years ago - but they crossed the Hindu Kush and settled in India instead of Afghanistan.
In view of the recent research about the origins of R1a, it seems they took the same route as R1b.
All these people were fleeing ice age conditions in Siberia.
R1a was on the Pontic Steppe 7000 years ago, Afanasievo people were also R1a.
If Anasievo culture is different from the Pontic steppe cultures, then R1a must have split in 2 groups somewhere before the Afanasievo culture.
R1a only split some 5800 years ago, probalby somewhere near the Pontic Steppe. That would mean the Anasievo branch finally went extinct.
I wonder what TMRCA would be of R1a in say Uyghurs and western Europe R1a.

MOESAN
06-04-14, 19:27
What are the oldest known areas of Greek viniculture ? Is there a connection with the following I.E.groups Latin, Latin,Phrygian, Albanian, Hittite, Luwian,Armenian and PIE for grapes and wine?



Did PIE R1a-z93/94 produce and drink wine or mead in the Ob and Ienissei rivers, ; Novosibirsk region? Did the Proto-Uralic neighbors have a word for wine, or mead. Are there PIE words for wine and mead that were transferred from Uralic from R1a z93/94 ?

Silesian the first aim of my short post was to correct a geographic mistake made on a site that a lot of people could take as a kind of "Bible" -
I had not sufficient time to write a sensible post on the true question, by the way this localization of Andronovo could very well have some weight concerning winelands !!!...
waiting more time for reflexion I say the genesis of all these cultures cannot be thought without contacts (a long time ago) between partially sedentary agricultors (from South-West Central Asia + East central Europe (Cucuteni-Tripolje) and nomadic pastors of the Steppes - we have the proofs of these contacts - I agree with the posts recalling the "steppes" are not a genuine continuum, the landscapes are in fact very variated, and the tarjets of the so called steppic cultures were very often sedentary cultures...
I shall try to gather my thoughts (but I see other posters here are better informed than me on this question, so..?)
I would be very glad if we could discover "new ancient" written traces!!!

Silesian
06-04-14, 19:40
Silesian the first aim of my short post was to correct a geographic mistake made on a site that a lot of people could take as a kind of "Bible" -
I had not sufficient time to write a sensible post on the true question, by the way this localization of Andronovo could very well have some weight concerning winelands !!!...
waiting more time for reflexion I say the genesis of all these cultures cannot be thought without contacts (a long time ago) between partially sedentary agricultors (from South-West Central Asia + East central Europe (Cucuteni-Tripolje) and nomadic pastors of the Steppes - we have the proofs of these contacts - I agree with the posts recalling the "steppes" are not a genuine continuum, the landscapes are in fact very variated, and the tarjets of the so called steppic cultures were very often sedentary cultures...
I shall try to gather my thoughts (but I see other posters here are better informed than me on this question, so..?)
I would be very glad if we could discover "new ancient" written traces!!!


That's why I give 1000+/- years and 1000+/- K.M for PIE, however how does Vitis vinifera (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitis_vinifera),and the production of wine and it's name in PIE fit in. Before or after R1a-Z93 domestication of horses for example ? Paper at outset gives suggested R1a location. Although 25 000 R1a-R1b split predates Mal'ta R* by 1000 years, perhaps a little unrealistic.

bicicleur
06-04-14, 19:46
R1a was on the Pontic Steppe 7000 years ago, Afanasievo people were also R1a.


I was wrong, DNA of Afanasievo is unknown, Andronovo were R1a...

Taranis
06-04-14, 21:16
Wine in Novosibirsk area? Grapes can't grow so far north in such cold climate. I like Taranis' explanation of semitic origin of wine.

I'm not sure how far back alcoholic mead happened, but it is attested from pottery of Bell Beaker Culture. So we can safely assume it was also known to Cucuteni and Yamna cultures. Supposedly it is also described in Rig Veda, I've heard.

Favorite drink of steppe peoples, till modern times, was always fermented animal milk. Does Rig Veda mention fermented milk drink?

LeBrok, I wouldn't necessarily say that the word "wine" is of Semitic origin, but I'm arguing that the Italo-Greek, Kartvelic and Semitic have a common source, which puts it somewhere in the vicinity of the Near East, the Caucasus and Greece, far back in the Neolithic. It could also be borrowed from yet another source. From the mythological side, you know how the Old Testament credits Noah with the invention of wine. :satisfied:

For the Proto-Indo-Europeans, I would argue that they definitely had some form of fermented beverage, called by the root *medhu-, (and indeed 'mead' is a good possibly for the original meaning), but in my opinion, it wasn't wine.

As regards the Beaker Culture, yes, they had alcoholic beverages, but with what Maciamo recently posted regarding the Beaker Culture, one should keep in mind that Basque has a word "wine" ("ardo", perhaps originally just "alcoholic beverage") unrelated with the words in other languages. So if the Beaker "people" were in fact a pre-Indo-European trade network (as Maciamo argues) then it would explain how Basque would have such a word.

Sile
06-04-14, 21:17
another link with different ideas on the topic

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.au/2014/03/y-dna-r1a-spread-from-iran.html

LeBrok
06-04-14, 21:46
I agree with much of this, but I think a close reading of Dr. Franchetti's work presents some problems for the Anthony model of a movement straight across the steppe from west to east for all these cultures.
Just as a general proposition, this notion that the steppe is this flat unimpeded expanse of grass is inaccurate. It is crossed by mountains, gorges and rivers etc., and different societies formed in different regions. The "Kurgan" culture of the Ukraine is very different on any number of levels from that of the eastern and south-eastern regions.
Yes, it is not like marching on flat dry table, and on first glance over a map of the steppe one can wonder how it was possible for people of copper or bronze age to move along there. With a little bit of thinking however, traversing the Steppe doesn't look that impossible. After all Mongols, Tatars and Kozaks done this many times in history with thousands of horses and big armies.
The easiest way to pass a big river would be during winter crossing over the ice bridge. Steppe is cold but rarely cover with thick snow leaving dry grass exposed to feed horses and travel. They ate horses so they had food with them, plus if they milked mares that gave them even more calories and vitamins.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-97ZLX11oC0c/UUqVa90gKXI/AAAAAAAAD_I/jjIXWJfI_cU/s640/IMG_2230.JPG


Having bronze tools they also could build wooden "pontoon" bridges on a slow river, or big transportation rafts. I've seen pictures from around 1900 people tying logs, for buoyancy, on both sides of a horse and swimming together with them and all belongings across the river.
Plus, we are not talking about war campaign here which requires speed, but about fairly slow migration of tribes. I'm not sure why dr. Franchetti makes it into such a problem?





Franchetti's findings, if correct, (and I don't see how they can be assailed) also show that there was a fully formed pastoralist society in Begasa far earlier than the standard model would propose.

The "Tocharians", or more precisely that society which we are assuming spoke Tocharian, is substantially different from the surrounding societies, and may have a very different source.

The proposed movement of culture (and/or peoples) from Abanasievo to the Tarim Basin is very problematical given the current state of the evidence.
It seems that some people have moved from pots are not people, to pots are always people. I don't think that either is accurate. It depends on the individual situation.
At the very least, there are multiple possible sources for these cultures, not all of them coming from the north and the west.
It would be probably silly to assume that all the tribes or even cultures in the Steppe were a product of only IE expansion. Although the evidence suggests that at the end (~2,000) IE Andronovo was most influential over others, being more populous, having better technology, perhaps also a better structure and organization.

Silesian
06-04-14, 22:09
LeBrok, I wouldn't necessarily say that the word "wine" is of Semitic origin, but I'm arguing that the Italo-Greek, Kartvelic and Semitic have a common source, which puts it somewhere in the vicinity of the Near East, the Caucasus and Greece, far back in the Neolithic.

Okay riddle me this answer. I see you are R1b1b2a* inferred, correct ? Are you closer to Kromsdorf samples R1b*-M 343/ R1b-M269; or the following choices?

1] R1b found in Kartvelian and or Osset speaking regions.

Lexical borrowing between PIE and Kartvelian
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/georgia/default.aspx?section=yresults
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ossetian/

2]R1b found in Armenians.

The Georgian word goes back to Proto-Kartvelian *ɣwino-[20] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine#cite_note-20), which is probably borrowed from Proto-Armenian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Armenian) *ɣʷeinyo-[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine#cite_note-21)[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine#cite_note-22)[23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine#cite_note-23)[24] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine#cite_note-24), whence Armenian gini (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D5%A3%D5%AB%D5%B6%D5%AB).
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject


3]Ancient R1b Aeloian Greeks adjacent Hittite/Lycians[Luwian]like the study of Smyrna Greeks by:
Roy J King1 (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69/#ins1)

The phylogenetic relationships and haplogroup frequencies for the data from the two sites in Asia Minor: Phokaia and Smyrna, three mainland Greek sites, the four regions from Turkey and the Neolithic sites in Provence are given in Figure 2 (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69/figure/F2). Phokaia and Smyrna have just subtle differences in their haplogroup composition. The dominant haplogroups in both Phokaia and Smyrna are E-V13 (19.4% and 12.1%) and R1b-M269 (22.6% and 27.8%) respectfully.
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69

LeBrok
07-04-14, 00:11
This is interesting:

This map is of Lactase Persistent allele in India:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KjbtJzGEXWQ/UyvNMNFgoWI/AAAAAAAACgY/ECDYrvBNBMY/s1600/indianmilk.jpg
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/09/the-gift-of-the-gopi/#.U0F4HfldUYl

This LP hotspot in india is located in the region called "Haryana"!!!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c5/India_Haryana_locator_map.svg/250px-India_Haryana_locator_map.svg.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haryana

A little bit of follow up:

13910 C>T is the only mutation showed on map above and below. This is clearly mutation mostly prevalent in Europe. The map below is not exactly precise or of good resolution but it clearly shows trend of this 13910 allele. It doesn't involved mutations from Arabian Peninsula and Africa. This is pretty obvious correlation to IE languages, and physically connects India to Europe through the Steppe bridge of LP populations.
Granted I would love to see more LP in the steppe region for clearer connection, but lets assume the steppe was "cleaned up" by recent invasions and migrations of not so LP Mongols and Turks.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9j8Ih7E-aUY/T-PXYxPoVKI/AAAAAAAAAZM/ZWXkgXy5Hkw/s1600/Predicted+Old+World+LP+phenotype+frequencies+based +on+frequency+data+for+the+-13,910+C%3ET+allele+only.png



Now lets talk about this beacon of LP in India (the first map), coincidently or not, in place called H-arya-na. Regardless if LP developed there or came to India with Aryans it looks like it didn't spread/drifted through this sub continent too well. It means that LP is not very needed there. If it is not very needed it means that most likely it came here with people from different region and traditions. It very well supplements the IE herders from cold North. The same who invaded Europe and spread LP gene there too. If anything this hot-spot of LP in otherwise "land of plenty" is very unusual thing to say the least. Otherwise LP is only reserved to geographical areas where supplementing diet with milk guaranties survival.

This is another positive piece of puzzle placing origin of IE out off India.

Silesian
07-04-14, 00:25
Now lets talk about this beacon of LP in India (the first map), coincidently or not, in place called H-arya-na. Regardless if LP developed there or came to India with Aryans it looks like it didn't spread/drifted through this sub continent too well. It means that LP is not very needed there. If it is not very needed it means that most likely it came here with people from different region and traditions. It very well supplements the IE herders from cold North. The same who invaded Europe and spread LP gene there too. If anything this hot-spot of LP in otherwise "land of plenty" is very unusual thing to say the least. Otherwise LP is only reserved to geographical areas where supplementing diet with milk guaranties survival.

This is another positive piece of puzzle placing origin of IE out off India.

With such overwhelming proof of H-arya-na connected to PIE and Northern Europe, maybe now you can show some R1a spread of kurgans,chariots/horses,beads,trinkets. :wary2:
BTW the "B" allele didn't quite travel the same as the L.P gene.If we can't share blood at least we can share a pitcher of milk together. It's the milk that binds us.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Map_of_blood_group_b.gif

Nobody1
07-04-14, 00:30
In your opinion where are the earliest centers for wine production, and hence where Proto-Indo-Europeans picked up the word for wine? Semitic and Levant,Swat valley, Pakistan ? Or Anatolia-Caucasus-Iran ?
Lycian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycian_language):- "oino"wine in Greek Aeolic - "woinos ". Do you agree Lycian-Luwian-Hittite? In other words Luwian is closely related to Hittite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_language). Lycian was spoken near Greek Aeoloc in western Anatolia?

Im sure that there are actually Genetic studies on grapes for wine (at least i thinks so); Maybe they even determined the Urgrape i.e. the mother of all grapes; If i had to guess my guess would be an hill area in the Near East specific South Caucasus which influenced/spread throughout surrounding areas fit for viticulture;

The Indo-European *bh(e)reu- *bhreu- is the root for Latin ferveō and Germanic Ahd. and OldEnglish briuwan / brēuwan i.e. for process of fermentation - brewing;

Silesian
07-04-14, 00:46
Im sure that there are actually Genetic studies on grapes for wine (at least i thinks so); Maybe they even determined the Urgrape i.e. the mother of all grapes; If i had to guess my guess would be an hill area in the Near East specific South Caucasus which influenced/spread throughout surrounding areas fit for viticulture;

The Indo-European *bh(e)reu- *bhreu- is the root for Latin ferveō and Germanic Ahd. and OldEnglish briuwan / brēuwan i.e. for process of fermentation - brewing;

What about lengend/myths/gods? PIE/IE and other?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_wine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_wine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus


Dionysus was only one wine god among many, and similar legends appear in other cultures with remarkable consistency.
An inscription from 2,700 BC names the Sumerian deity Gestin, which means "mother vine-stock". Another Sumerian god was Pa-gestin-dug or "good vine-stock". His wife Nin-kasi was 'the lady of the inebriating fruit".


Maybe your right.

Keys, David (2003-12-28) Now that's what you call a real vintage: professor unearths 8,000-year-old wine (http://www.archaeology.ws/2004-1-2.htm). archaeology.ws.

LeBrok
07-04-14, 01:19
With such overwhelming proof of H-arya-na connected to PIE and Northern Europe, maybe now you can show some R1a spread of kurgans,chariots/horses,beads,trinkets. :wary2:
BTW the "B" allele didn't quite travel the same as the L.P gene.If we can't share blood at least we can share a pitcher of milk together. It's the milk that binds us.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Map_of_blood_group_b.gif
I don't understand why you posted this. I suppose it is some B allele found in blood? You would have a point if the blue colour indicated 100% of only B allele, but it says 30% therefore it means existence of 70% different alleles in the rest of population. Some of the "rest" might correlate with IEs.

Silesian
07-04-14, 01:37
and nice R1a maps:
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/images/ejhg201450f2.jpg

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/images/ejhg201450f3.jpg


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/R1a1a_distribution.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Map_of_blood_group_b.gif[QUOTE=LeBrok;429389]A little bit of follow up:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9j8Ih7E-aUY/T-PXYxPoVKI/AAAAAAAAAZM/ZWXkgXy5Hkw/s1600/Predicted+Old+World+LP+phenotype+frequencies+based +on+frequency+data+for+the+-13,910+C%3ET+allele+only.png



This is another positive piece of puzzle placing origin of IE out off India

LeBrok
07-04-14, 02:22
With such overwhelming proof of H-arya-na connected to PIE and Northern Europe, maybe now you can show some R1a spread of kurgans,chariots/horses,beads,trinkets. :wary2:


To keep "out of India" idea alive you might as well produce Indian cultural evidence all the way to Europe.

Regardless, here is the explanation for the lack of Steppe cultural artifacts in India:

1. The horses from the stepp didn't do well in India's hot and humid climate, up to +40C with 100% humidity. All the Aryan's horses died out quickly. In this case finding their bones is very difficult, and graves with horses were impossible or very rare.
2. Point one can explain why the Harappa chariot, you posted, is pulled only by local animals, the bovian bulls. Also India's vegetation is dense and high not great for roaming around in chariots for war purposes.
3. For these above reasons war chariots are not popular in India till first millennium when new breads of horses for hot climates are created. Looking at Indian culture in general, horses never became as popular as in the Steppe or Europe.
4. Aryan invasion was not huge in numbers. Indus Valley civilisation was already in decline, caused by climatic conditions or something else, when invasion happened. From 1,900 BCE to 1,500 or even longer during so called Dark Ages for this area. If there was small number of invaders their artifacts will be more difficult to find in densely populated India. Most bronz items were never buried and reused for newer items.
5. Perhaps for first decades or longer they ruled from nomadic camps away from big Indus cities (Mongol style), and their first locations are under existing agricultural fields, and not being found in Harappa or other excavated cities? Or perhaps these camp sites with burial kurgans were washed away with floods or eroded with monsoons? We are talking about wood and soil structures in hot and moist climate.
6. Perhaps Aryans came as exclusively male war party without their smiths and artisans. It would have meant that they had to rely on local products only in ceramics, cloths and bronze products. After all they came into a farmer society more advanced in many everyday ways; better linens, better ceramic, better paints, better food variety, stone buildings, architecture, roads, plumbing, etc.

Silesian
07-04-14, 02:50
To keep "out of India" idea alive you might as well produce Indian cultural evidence all the way to Europe.

Regardless, here is the explanation for the lack of Steppe cultural artifacts in India:

Then you have the Tocharians. Celtic and Italic areas are very very, low in both R1a and the B allele


Either of two extinct languages ( Tocharian A and Tocharian B) spoken by the Tocharian people, the most easterly of known ancient Indo-European languages, surviving in a few documents and inscriptions and showing affinities to Celtic and Italic languages.

Remember the video by Mallory and the problem with connecting the Tocharian's with the steppe? Then we have Michael Frachetti's work
work. How about mtdna X2e ?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180497/



Clades X2e and X2f encompass the majority (87.1%) of the sequences from the South Caucasus area and show coalescence times (12,000 ± 4,000 YBP and 10,800 ± 5,000 YBP, respectively) consistent with a Late Upper Paleolithic (LUP) origin and a subsequent spread in the region. We found significant differences between the haplogroup distribution between the North and the South Caucasian samples, a result that indicates a major geographical barrier between the two regions. The South Caucasian sample is enriched in mtDNAs belonging to clades X2e and X2f (P<.01), whereas the North Caucasian sample shows a higher proportion of sequences derived at nps 225 and 16248 (P<.01).Clade X2e, defined by the synonymous substitution at 15310, encompasses all haplogroup X sequences in the Altaians (fig. 2 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180497/figure/FG2/)).

LeBrok
07-04-14, 03:14
Then you have the Tocharians. Celtic and Italic areas are very very, low in both R1a and the B allele



Remember the video by Mallory and the problem with connecting the Tocharian's with the steppe? Then we have Michael Frachetti's work
work. How about mtdna X2e ?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180497/
It is not a problem. We have blond dudes speaking Indo European language of Centum type. Why can't they migrate from West steppe close to Mykop or something like that. We know similar length successful migration of Turkish people from Central Asia to Anatolia, within couple of hundreds of years. I don't understand why Tocharians must be related to Andronovo and Indo-Iranians.


PS. can you explain what you want to say in post 221?


I'm not sure why you looking more at what we don't know instead of concentrating on what we already know. From your point of view we will never know what happened in the past because we can't find all the evidence to be 100% sure.

Aberdeen
07-04-14, 03:53
To keep "out of India" idea alive you might as well produce Indian cultural evidence all the way to Europe.

Regardless, here is the explanation for the lack of Steppe cultural artifacts in India:

1. The horses from the stepp didn't do well in India's hot and humid climate, up to +40C with 100% humidity. All the Aryan's horses died out quickly. In this case finding their bones is very difficult, and graves with horses were impossible or very rare.
2. Point one can explain why the Harappa chariot, you posted, is pulled only by local animals, the bovian bulls. Also India's vegetation is dense and high not great for roaming around in chariots for war purposes.
3. For these above reasons war chariots are not popular in India till first millennium when new breads of horses for hot climates are created. Looking at Indian culture in general, horses never became as popular as in the Steppe or Europe.
4. Aryan invasion was not huge in numbers. Indus Valley civilisation was already in decline, caused by climatic conditions or something else, when invasion happened. From 1,900 BCE to 1,500 or even longer during so called Dark Ages for this area. If there was small number of invaders their artifacts will be more difficult to find in densely populated India. Most bronz items were never buried and reused for newer items.
5. Perhaps for first decades or longer they ruled from nomadic camps away from big Indus cities (Mongol style), and their first locations are under existing agricultural fields, and not being found in Harappa or other excavated cities? Or perhaps these camp sites with burial kurgans were washed away with floods or eroded with monsoons? We are talking about wood and soil structures in hot and moist climate.
6. Perhaps Aryans came as exclusively male war party without their smiths and artisans. It would have meant that they had to rely on local products only in ceramics, cloths and bronze products. After all they came into a farmer society more advanced in many everyday ways; better linens, better ceramic, better paints, better food variety, stone buildings, architecture, roads, plumbing, etc.

If you look up "History of Archeology in India", you'll find that the post-Independence section is blank. What isn't being looked for won't be found. And I doubt if there's been much archeology going on in Pakistan or Afghanistan in recent decades.

Silesian
07-04-14, 05:57
PS. can you explain what you want to say in post 221?
Sure. Clinging to old ideas and myths that no longer work

To keep "out of India" idea alive you might as well produce Indian cultural evidence all the way to Europe.

Regardless, here is the explanation for the lack of Steppe cultural artifacts in India:

1. The horses from the stepp didn't do well in India's hot and humid climate, up to +40C with 100% humidity. All the Aryan's horses died out quickly. In this case finding their bones is very difficult, and graves with horses were impossible or very rare.
2. Point one can explain why the Harappa chariot, you posted, is pulled only by local animals, the bovian bulls. Also India's vegetation is dense and high not great for roaming around in chariots for war purposes.
3. For these above reasons war chariots are not popular in India till first millennium when new breads of horses for hot climates are created. Looking at Indian culture in general, horses never became as popular as in the Steppe or Europe.
4. Aryan invasion was not huge in numbers. Indus Valley civilisation was already in decline, caused by climatic conditions or something else, when invasion happened. From 1,900 BCE to 1,500 or even longer during so called Dark Ages for this area. If there was small number of invaders their artifacts will be more difficult to find in densely populated India. Most bronz items were never buried and reused for newer items.
5. Perhaps for first decades or longer they ruled from nomadic camps away from big Indus cities (Mongol style), and their first locations are under existing agricultural fields, and not being found in Harappa or other excavated cities? Or perhaps these camp sites with burial kurgans were washed away with floods or eroded with monsoons? We are talking about wood and soil structures in hot and moist climate.
6. Perhaps Aryans came as exclusively male war party without their smiths and artisans. It would have meant that they had to rely on local products only in ceramics, cloths and bronze products. After all they came into a farmer society more advanced in many everyday ways; better linens, better ceramic, better paints, better food variety, stone buildings, architecture, roads, plumbing, etc

LeBrok
07-04-14, 07:15
Sure. Clinging to old ideas and myths that no longer work

Instead of only criticizing old ideas, please explain your ideas or at least someone elses ideas why they are more probable in your mind.

Nobody1
07-04-14, 13:27
What about lengend/myths/gods? PIE/IE and other?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_wine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_wine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus

They are a Mythological by product of the product itself and its effects (merry drunkenness); There is no Indo-European god for wine - those Indo-Europeans that expanded into viticulture areas simply adopted a cult or created one independently; Thus i also think that the process (fermentation/brewing) is more of significant than the product itself - which is mostly regionally restricted; The common Indo-European term *bh(e)reu- was used in Latin ferveō for fermentation of Grapes to make wine and in Germanic briuwan for fermentation of barley and grain to make the Urgermanic bier; Tacitus (Ger. XXIII) 'A liquor for drinking is made out of barley or other grain, and fermented into a certain resemblance to wine'; And Gambrinus is the mythical king of Beer;


Maybe your right. Now that's what you call a real vintage: professor unearths 8,000-year-old wine (http://www.archaeology.ws/2004-1-2.htm)

I thought so;

LeBrok
07-04-14, 21:59
If you look up "History of Archeology in India", you'll find that the post-Independence section is blank. What isn't being looked for won't be found. And I doubt if there's been much archeology going on in Pakistan or Afghanistan in recent decades.
There is obviously lack of funds for any type of research in this world region. I wasn't able to find any maps of skin shades or eye colour to see if it works for Haryana same way as LP gene. Funds issue might be coupled with political climate in India to avoid anything which potentially might divide the country.

Silesian
08-04-14, 20:32
I repeat again. When the median empire was on it's peak a religion called Zoroastrianism wasn't yet bron. So what were they before there was anything called Zoroastrianism? In the past many scientists made the mistake that they generally tended to connect anything in connection with Fire to Zoroastrians. And they also tended to call any Iranian religion Zoroastrian like using an "umbrella term". But newer studies and well known scientists like Kreyenboerk confirm that Fire and Sun worshipping goes further back to some older rituals and religion. Which he calls the "proto Iranic religion" To which Mithraism is closer to and was the first to split off. Later Zoroastrianism split off Mithraism. Zarathustra was basically a Mithra worshipper who started to invent his own religion with mostly elements of Mithraism.
In no ancient Iranian text will you see the Magi labeled as Zoroastrians.

What is your opinion of Viktor Sariandi's work? BMAC origins pointing to Iran and yet having links with vedic sanskrit ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Sarianidi

I was just listening to this nice melody about " Barf " How do they say "snow" in Kurdish ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAph0sTavbM&list=ALBTKoXRg38BArgaYzJEbLiKpa3P1-dzve

Silesian
08-04-14, 20:48
There is no Indo-European god for wine .....

Maybe not. However there is a PIE /proto-Kartvelian word for it. The terrain it was produced in was not really good for wagons.


This matches the earliest discovered sites containing shards (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shard) of wine-stained pottery (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pottery), dated to c. 6000 BC in Georgia,[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine#cite_note-indie-5) and c. 5000 BC in Iran (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran).[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine#cite_note-indie-5)[6 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine#cite_note-archaeology96-6)

http://www.armeniaproject.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Areni-1-cave.jpg

LeBrok
08-04-14, 21:20
What is your opinion of Viktor Sariandi's work? BMAC origins pointing to Iran and yet having links with vedic sanskrit ?

We know you love to ask questions. How about entertaining us with your hypothesis of IE and II origin and allowing us to point to "imperfections" and provide our critique this time around? C'mon don't be shy, we are all friends here. :)

Silesian
09-04-14, 08:01
We know you love to ask questions. How about entertaining us with your hypothesis of IE and II origin and allowing us to point to "imperfections" and provide our critique this time around? C'mon don't be shy, we are all friends here. :)

I think Vedic Sanskrit-Avestan-Ancient extinct Mede[only attested in Old Persian]
Old Avestan is closely related to Old Persian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Persian) and also in some extent close in nature to Vedic Sanskrit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_Sanskrit).


Proto-Indo-European Roots

Root/Stem:
*sneigwh-




http://indoeuro.bizland.com/project/phonetics/word12.html


1 Hoffman, K. Encyclopaedia Iranica. AVESTAN LANGUAGE. III. The grammar of Avestan.: "The morphology of Avestan nouns, adjectives, pronouns, and verbs is, like that of the closely related Old Persian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Persian), inherited from Proto-Indo-European via Proto-Indo-Iranian (Proto-Aryan), and agrees largely with that of Vedic, the oldest known form of Indo-Aryan. The interpretation of the transmitted Avestan texts presents in many cases considerable difficulty for various reasons, both with respect to their contexts and their grammar. Accordingly, systematic comparison with Vedic is of much assistance in determining and explaining Avestan grammatical forms.


point in the direction of mountains with snow and or snow from which R1a went East and R1b went west . The dispersal was from somewhere with snow, where R1a and R1b were to the west of India; similar in latitude to Northern India like Northwest Iran. Not Ukraine, Volga or Andronovo region. Somewhere they use a similar term for snow in Europe. Not Barf or Baraf .Something like Av. snaēža- < OIr. *snaija-) compared to Gothic snáiws "snow" .



Somewhere that has the ccddee mutation even at low frequency [Kurds/Bannu-Swat]compared to Northern and Western Europe.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3262328/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19999224

A region with R1a/R1b variance. A region with variance in Vitis vinifera.
Somewhere grapes grow naturally to produce wine,and the subsequent naming in, Proto-Kartvelian, Proto-Indo-European,Proto Semitic.
Proto-Indo-European (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language) *we/oi(H)nyo- (https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/we/oi%28H%29nyo-&action=edit&redlink=1).
Proto-Armenian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Armenian_language)[1] (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Kartvelian/%C9%A3wino-#cite_note-mar-1)[2] (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Kartvelian/%C9%A3wino-#cite_note-2)[3] (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Kartvelian/%C9%A3wino-#cite_note-3)[4] (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Kartvelian/%C9%A3wino-#cite_note-4) *ɣʷeinyo- (https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Appendix:Proto-Armenian/%C9%A3%CA%B7einyo-&action=edit&redlink=1)
English-wine
German-wein
Polish-wino
Italian-vino
Armenian-gini
Welsh-gwin
Albanian-verë


Changes in pip shape (narrower in domesticated forms) and distribution point to domestication occurring about 3500–3000 BC, in southwest Asia, South Caucasus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Caucasus) (Armenia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia) and Georgia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_%28country%29)), or the Western Black Sea shore region (Romania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania) and Bulgaria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria)).

A region that is within lateral distance of almost all physically attested early examples of IE. or related languages[extinct mede,aveston-sanskrit] they were written in.
A region that has Indra/Mitra/Aruna/Varuna and some of the first horse training manuals.
A region with J2 found in Brahmans in India.
A region with a similar name to Middle_Media.
The Medes / (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English)m (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)i (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)d (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)z (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)/ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English)[N 1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes#cite_note-5) (Hebrew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language): מָדַי, Old Persian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Persian_language) [I]Māda-) were an ancient Iranian people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Iranian_peoples)[N 2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes#cite_note-7) who lived in an area known as Medi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_%28region%29)

Best fit for all above and PIE AC6 4000 B.C.-6000 B.C. R1a East Expansion into India, and North into Eastern Europe. R1b North into Bashkir, and Western Europe. X pattern between Black sea and Caspian.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0076748

http://i60.tinypic.com/idfzmr.png











(http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0076748)

LeBrok
12-04-14, 07:30
I think Vedic Sanskrit-Avestan-Ancient extinct Mede[only attested in Old Persian]
Ok then, does it mean that you don't believe in Indian/Indus Valley origin of IEs, or they came to Persia from India? From you previous posts I deducted that you thought that Indo-Iranians or even IE were native to Indus Valley.

[QUOTE]point in the direction of mountains with snow and or snow from which R1a went East and R1b went west Why these migratory directions are so important to your hypothesis?


The dispersal was from somewhere with snow, where R1a and R1b were to the west of India; similar in latitude to Northern India like Northwest Iran. Not Ukraine, Volga or Andronovo region. Somewhere they use a similar term for snow in Europe. Not Barf or Baraf .Something like Av. snaēža- < OIr. *snaija-) compared to Gothic snáiws "snow" . I don't understand a problem with Andronovo or Yamna in this context, I'm sure snow is attested there, even lots of snow. I must be missing some pieces of the puzzle with this one and with East/West.
Moreover, It doesn't look like horses were present in Near East before 2,000 BCE. Could Rig Veda be composed there if horses were not in their tradition? Unless Rig Veda is fairly late creation, closer to 1,000 BCE.



A region with R1a/R1b variance. A region with variance in [I]Vitis vinifera.
Somewhere grapes grow naturally to produce wine,and the subsequent naming in, Proto-Kartvelian, Proto-Indo-European,Proto Semitic.
Proto-Indo-European (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language) *we/oi(H)nyo- (https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/we/oi%28H%29nyo-&action=edit&redlink=1).
Proto-Armenian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Armenian_language)[1] (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Kartvelian/%C9%A3wino-#cite_note-mar-1)[2] (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Kartvelian/%C9%A3wino-#cite_note-2)[3] (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Kartvelian/%C9%A3wino-#cite_note-3)[4] (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Kartvelian/%C9%A3wino-#cite_note-4) *ɣʷeinyo- (https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Appendix:Proto-Armenian/%C9%A3%CA%B7einyo-&action=edit&redlink=1)
English-wine
German-wein
Polish-wino
Italian-vino
Armenian-gini
Welsh-gwin
Albanian-verë

As long as Wine has huge probability not to be IE, we should really disregard this lead.


A region that has Indra/Mitra/Aruna/Varuna and some of the first horse training manuals. Isn't it better and easier to look at archeology and history of horse domestication, carbon dating etc, than look at some manuals written as late as first millennium BCE?

A region with J2 found in Brahmans in India.J2 is too broad and too old. You should look at subclades, same way we looked at subclades of R1a at Z93.


Best fit for all above and PIE AC6 4000 B.C.-6000 B.C. R1a East Expansion into India, and North into Eastern Europe. R1b North into Bashkir, and Western Europe. X pattern between Black sea and Caspian. I think you really went back too far. Perhaps some genetic science can help us with migration but we never will be sure where PIE came from. We should concentrate on IE after 4,000 BC and Indo-Iranian after 3,000 BC. And even this doesn't come easy and is controversial.

Silesian
12-04-14, 14:23
As long as Wine has huge probability not to be IE, we should really disregard this lead.....

I never want to disregard any possible lead, that could possibly shed some light on this interesting debate.

In my opinion, wine is a very interesting lead/subject. It really narrows down the region where R1b/R1a- PIE originated in my opinion. Grapes are one of the oldest known fruits and grow in certain climates naturally. Wine is a by-product of that. Wine and the possibility of PIE- R1b is very interesting in my opinion. When you look at the maps on R1b Z2105+ you can see it is heavily concentrated in Anatolia and Caucasus. This region has also been noted with high variance within the R1b community. Just as some are showing variance with R1a of the region. If you take a closer look at the word for wine, it is almost universally known in both Western and Eastern Europe by the same name.


The English word "wine" comes from the Proto-Germanic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Germanic_language) *winam, an early borrowing from the Latin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) vinum, "wine" or "(grape) vine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vine)", itself derived from the Proto-Indo-European (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language) stem *win-o- (cf. Hittite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_language): wiyana; Lycian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycian_language): oino; Ancient Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek): οἶνος oinos; Aeolic Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolic_Greek): ϝ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digamma)οῖνος woinos, Armenian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_language): gini (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D5%A3%D5%AB%D5%B6%D5%AB)).[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine#cite_note-9)[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine#cite_note-10)[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine#cite_note-11) .....Some scholars have noted the similarities between the words for wine in Kartvelian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartvelian_languages) (e.g. Georgian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_%28language%29) ღვინო (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%83%A6%E1%83%95%E1%83%98%E1%83%9C%E1%83%9D) [ɣvinɔ] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Georgian)), Indo-European languages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages) (e.g. Armenian gini (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D5%A3%D5%AB%D5%B6%D5%AB), Latin vinum, Ancient Greek οἶνος, Russian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language) вино [vino] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Russian)), and Semitic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic) (*wayn), pointing to the possibility of a common origin of the word denoting "wine" in these language families.[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine#cite_note-19) The Georgian word goes back to Proto-Kartvelian *ɣwino-,[20] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine#cite_note-20) which is probably borrowed from Proto-Armenian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Armenian) *ɣʷeinyo-,[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine#cite_note-21)[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine#cite_note-22)[23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine#cite_note-23)[24] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine#cite_note-24) whence Armenian gini (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D5%A3%D5%AB%D5%B6%D5%AB). On the other hand, Fähnrich considers *ɣwino- a native South Caucasian word derived from the verbal root *ɣun- 'to bend'.[25] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine#cite_note-25) See *ɣwino- (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Kartvelian/%C9%A3wino-) for more



So it would not be a stretch to show that the origin of wine might be of interest to the PIE R1b/R1a regional debate.There really are only 3 choices in my opinion for the word to have entered into PIE.

1) Proto-Kartvelian
2) Proto-Semitic
3) Proto-Indo-European

At the very minimum the word for wine can be placed within the above regions. Most scholarly articles I have read seem to point to Caucasus region in both cultivation and variety of grapes and archeologically dated wine resin found within pottery . If true, that would point to Proto-Kartvelian and Proto-Indo-European being together.The same cannot be said for Proto-Semitic. For example in the table for grapes/wine in the below cited Appendix of Pro-Semitic words, take note the word for wine is not universal within proto-semitic branches.
Akaddian
Akkadian (lišānum akkadītum, 𒅎 (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%F0%92%85%8E)𒀝 (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%F0%92%80%9D)𒂵 (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%F0%92%82%B5)𒌈 (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%F0%92%8C%88) ak.kADû) (also Accadian, Assyro-Babylonian)[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akkadian_language#cite_note-1) is an extinct (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinct_language) Semitic language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_language) (part of the greater Afroasiatic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afroasiatic_languages) language family) that was spoken in ancient Mesopotamia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia). The earliest attested Semitic language,[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akkadian_language#cite_note-2).........By the second millennium BC, two variant forms of the language were in use in Assyria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyria) and Babylonia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonia), known as Assyrian and Babylonian respectively.

and Syriac
Syriac (ܠܫܢܐ ܣܘܪܝܝܐ Leššānā Suryāyā) is a dialect of Middle Aramaic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Aramaic) that was once spoken across much of the Fertile Crescent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertile_Crescent) and Eastern Arabia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Arabia).[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_language#cite_note-2)[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_language#cite_note-3)[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_language#cite_note-4)
do not even have a word for wine.

Therefore we can logically deduce/conclude that the original Akkadians and Syriacs were not originally involved in the wine making process, using wild or cultivated grapes; perhaps dates?[how could you process something you do not have a name for?] Thereby eliminating their relation to PIE. The only other option would then be Hebrew, which also seems to fall short in relation to the Caucasus, of the origins of wine. I could only find one name in the Doctoral Thesis cited below which tries and show the origin of wine making within Hebrew context.


^ (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:List_of_Proto-Semitic_stems#cite_ref-1) D. Jordan, An Offering of Wine, Doctoral Thesis, The Department of Semitic Studies, University of Sydney (2002) (http://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/bitstream/2123/482/1/adt-NU20031211.15583702whole.pdf)



http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:List_of_Proto-Semitic_stems#cite_note-1


I think you really went back too far. Perhaps some genetic science can help us with migration but we never will be sure where PIE came from. We should concentrate on IE after 4,000 BC and Indo-Iranian after 3,000 BC. And even this doesn't come easy and is controversial.
What are your thoughts on Indo-Iranian words for snow, winter, ice and the spread with R1a ? Many areas where their are elevated frequencies of R1a in India, have no snow or ice, unlike Europe. How did these words enter into vocabulary ?

Taranis
12-04-14, 19:08
So it would not be a stretch to show that the origin of wine might be of interest to the PIE R1b/R1a regional debate.There really are only 3 choices in my opinion for the word to have entered into PIE.

1) Proto-Kartvelian
2) Proto-Semitic
3) Proto-Indo-European

At the very minimum the word for wine can be placed within the above regions. Most scholarly articles I have read seem to point to Caucasus region in both cultivation and variety of grapes and archeologically dated wine resin found within pottery . If true, that would point to Proto-Kartvelian and Proto-Indo-European being together.The same cannot be said for Proto-Semitic. For example in the table for grapes/wine in the below cited Appendix of Pro-Semitic words, take note the word for wine is not universal within proto-semitic branches.
Akaddian

and Syriac
do not even have a word for wine.

Therefore we can logically deduce/conclude that the original Akkadians and Syriacs were not originally involved in the wine making process, using wild or cultivated grapes; perhaps dates?[how could you process something you do not have a name for?] Thereby eliminating their relation to PIE. The only other option would then be Hebrew, which also seems to fall short in relation to the Caucasus, of the origins of wine. I could only find one name in the Doctoral Thesis cited below which tries and show the origin of wine making within Hebrew context.


^ (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:List_of_Proto-Semitic_stems#cite_ref-1) D. Jordan, An Offering of Wine, Doctoral Thesis, The Department of Semitic Studies, University of Sydney (2002) (http://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/bitstream/2123/482/1/adt-NU20031211.15583702whole.pdf)



http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:List_of_Proto-Semitic_stems#cite_note-1



Full stop, you're making a lot of stretches here.

The word for "wine" used in the Indo-Iranic languages (including Sanskrit) is a reflex of PIE *medhu-. The connotation for "alcoholic beverage" is attested in a number of other Indo-European branches (Celtic, Germanic, Greek), but there's no meaning of "wine" attested. We additionally have the attestations for a meaning as "honey" (attested in Slavic and Tocharian), so as LeBrok suggested, the original meaning as "mead" (fermented honey) seems to be the most likely original meaning.

In all of the language families of northern Europe (Celtic, Germanic, Baltic, Slavic, as well as the obviously non-Indo-European Uralic languages), the word for "wine" is borrowed from Latin "vinum" (one can include Albanian "verë" in this group as well - although Albania is not located in northern Europe by any stretch). There is no reason to assume that any one of these IE branches inherited the word "wine" from Proto-Indo-European, which takes us back to the Mediterranean. Both the Latin ("vīnum") and Greek forms ("οινος" - earlier "ϝοινος") take us back to a common proto-form *woino-, which is unlikely to be inherited from Proto-Indo-European because its not attested anywhere else outside of loanwords.

Now with regard for the Semitic languages, you are making a completely wrong conclusion. The Hebrew word "jajin" exhibits the sound change *w- > *j- (which is why a Proto-Semitic form *w-j-n must be reconstructed - a triple root, which is very common for Proto-Semitic roots). This sound shift is not only found in Canaanite (including Hebrew and Phoenician), but also Ugaritic and Aramaic (including Syriac). In my opinion, the word is at least reconstructable for Northwest Semitic, because of its phonological history. Even if we say the word is borrowed from elsewhere, this is an old borrowing, as Proto-Semitic itself was probably spoken during the Neolithic (Proto-Semitic is without a doubt older than PIE, and its parent language, Proto-Afroasiatic, may be the oldest - uncontested - language family that we know of). Now we are left with Greek/Italic *woino- and Semitic *w-j-n, and while the Graeco-Italic form is not necessarily borrowed from Semitic, the two are clearly related: the Greeks certainly had contact with Semitic-speaking peoples (the Greek alphabet, after all, was borrowed from the Phoenician alphabet), and its also possible that one of the Pre-Greek ("Pelasgian", even though I despise the term) languages spoken in Greece was a Semitic language. Therefore, its plausible for the word "wine" to be a loanword, rather than an originally Indo-European word.


What are your thoughts on Indo-Iranian words for snow, winter, ice and the spread with R1a ? Many areas where their are elevated frequencies of R1a in India, have no snow or ice, unlike Europe. How did these words enter into vocabulary ?

I think it is very simple: Proto-Indo-Iranic did not originate in India (or the Iranian plateau, for that matter). People overlook often that there's a third branch - the Nuristani languages. In my opinion, the Hindukush region is a far more suitable place of origin for Proto-Indo-Iranic than the Iranian plateau or the Indus Valley region.

Silesian
12-04-14, 19:38
Full stop, you're making a lot of stretches here.

Before we jump to honey let's first settle the quoted material below which is all about wine. Did the ancient Greeks and ancient Anatolian languages including nešili, have a word for wine , yes or no ? Did they even have pictographs for wine?

(cf. Hittite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_language): wiyana; Lycian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycian_language): oino ; Ancient Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek): οἶνος oinos; Aeolic Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolic_Greek): ϝ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digamma)οῖνος woinos, Armenian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_language): gini (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D5%A3%D5%AB%D5%B6%D5%AB)).[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine#cite_note-9)[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine#cite_note-10)[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine#cite_note-11)


The population of most of the Hittite Empire by this time spoke Luwian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luwian) dialects, another Indo-European language of the Anatolian family that had originated to the west of the Hittite region.


I think it is very simple: Proto-Indo-Iranic did not originate in India (or the Iranian plateau, for that matter). People overlook often that there's a third branch - the Nuristani languages. In my opinion, the Hindukush region is a far more suitable place of origin for Proto-Indo-Iranic than the Iranian plateau or the Indus Valley region.

Is this the region you envision ?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Hindu-Kush-Range.png

If it is, can you say if inhabitants were coming or going into this region?

For example at 6 minutes into the following video, were these people leaving the area or entering and general time frame 2000 B.C. -1500 B.C.?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-8JAdDbNWg

Twilight
12-04-14, 22:40
Are there any Legends dating back to the Corded Ware or Texts; like the Rig Vedas for example?

Silesian
12-04-14, 23:01
Are there any Legends dating back to the Corded Ware or Texts; like the Rig Vedas for example?

That is what I keep asking. I have questioned many people, including people who are familiar with Sanskrit Vedas. I'm waiting to meet someone who is fluent in Sanskrit in the next month or two; I'm looking forward to asking him this very question !

Taranis
12-04-14, 23:45
Before we jump to honey let's first settle the quoted material below which is all about wine. Did the ancient Greeks and ancient Anatolian languages including nešili, have a word for wine , yes or no ? Did they even have pictographs for wine?

I don't know if you noticed it, but the various forms you give are by no means regular. Lycian "oino" is clearly borrowed from Greek (since Lycian to my knowledge preserved PIE *w). It is beyond me how you're supposed to build together a Proto-Anatolian form there. One of the greatest perils of the Anatolian hypothesis is that Anatolia abundantly has Pre-Indo-European languages (in particularly Hattian, and the Hurro-Urartian languages), which seem to have no relationship with the Indo-European languages. To me, it seems far more plausible that the Proto-Anatolians were immigrants from the steppe, as per the Kurgan scenario.

The case that you're trying to build up for the word "wine" to be reconstructable for Proto-Indo-European is very questionable, in my opinion:

- borrowed from Latin in Albanian, Baltic, Celtic, Germanic and Slavic
- unattested in Indo-Iranic (ancient literature uses a reflex of *medhu- instead, which is well-attested in other IE branches, but certainly not as "wine"), and Tocharian.
- Anatolian (no consistent Proto-form reconstructable).

- With the majority of Indo-European branches effectively eliminated, this leaves us only with Greek and Latin (which no doubt can be traced back to a common Proto-form) and Armenian (which may be borrowed from a Kartvelic source), and in my opinion, the Graeco-Latin *woino- is far more likely to have been picked up as a Mediterranean loanword rather than inherited from PIE.

Silesian
13-04-14, 00:15
Kurgan scenario...

Okay I still don't know if there is a word in Anatolian for wine, besides ancient Greek? However let's skip the Anatolian/Luwian and Hittite possibility of the word. Are ancient Greek, Phrygian, and Armenian, Albanian related to PIE and in any way to each other ? If so when did they split and what is the oldest attested of the above languages [Linear A/Linear B for example]?


ancient literature uses a reflex of *medhu- instead
I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed so for the sake of simplicity is it possible only to stick to the origin of wine, in the languages above ? Where in the region between did the word wine, come?

Nobody1
13-04-14, 14:59
Maybe not. However there is a PIE /proto-Kartvelian word for it. The terrain it was produced in was not really good for wagons.

J-C Billigmeier describes the wine as such:
'Greek oinos, earlier woinos, occurs in Linear B as wo-no, as does a derivative wo-na-si /woinassi/ "in (the) vineyards"....The word occurs in Hittite as wiyana and the root of it is seen in the non-Indo-European, pre-Hittite language known as Hattic in the word vinduqqaram "cupbearer, winepourer". Both the Semitic and the IE languages of the Eastern Mediterranean probably derived the word from a common Anatolian source.'

And Sir W. Ramsay 'Classical Review Vol.36 (1922)' derives the Greek oinos/woinos from the Hittite wiyana [Luwian: wiyani (wa/i-na Sultanhan F-G)]; Cambridge Uni. -
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract;jsessionid=40F74BBCCFCCEBEFF488A02 9DBD18DB8.journals?fromPage=online&aid=3743456

Given that viticulture first originated in the South Caucasus (~6th mil BC) it is most probable that the Indo-European branches that migrated their (Hittite/Luwian) adopted the native term which than other branches practising viticulture adopted from them (i.e. chain Hittite/Luwian>Greek>Latin etc.); The original Assyrian (Semitic) term for wine was karānu;

Twilight
13-04-14, 15:18
That is what I keep asking. I have questioned many people, including people who are familiar with Sanskrit Vedas. I'm waiting to meet someone who is fluent in Sanskrit in the next month or two; I'm looking forward to asking him this very question !


I'm sure that there are some Rig Vedas translations on Youtube :)

Silesian
13-04-14, 17:33
J-C Billigmeier describes the wine as such:
'Greek oinos, earlier woinos, occurs in Linear B as wo-no, as does a derivative wo-na-si /woinassi/ "in (the) vineyards"....The word occurs in Hittite as wiyana and the root of it is seen in the non-Indo-European, pre-Hittite language known as Hattic in the word vinduqqaram "cupbearer, winepourer". Both the Semitic and the IE languages of the Eastern Mediterranean probably derived the word from a common Anatolian source.'

And Sir W. Ramsay 'Classical Review Vol.36 (1922)' derives the Greek oinos/woinos from the Hittite wiyana [Luwian: wiyani (wa/i-na Sultanhan F-G)]; Cambridge Uni. -
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract;jsessionid=40F74BBCCFCCEBEFF488A02 9DBD18DB8.journals?fromPage=online&aid=3743456

Given that viticulture first originated in the South Caucasus (~6th mil BC) it is most probable that the Indo-European branches that migrated their (Hittite/Luwian) adopted the native term which than other branches practising viticulture adopted from them (i.e. chain Hittite/Luwian>Greek>Latin etc.); The original Assyrian (Semitic) term for wine was karānu;

Thank you. I don't understand the following entry under Proto-Kartvelian in relation to the adopted word for wine, in Armenian classified under Indo-European language.



The ablaut (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ablaut) patterns of Proto-Kartvelian are highly similar to those of the Indo-European languages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages), and so it is widely thought that Proto-Kartvelian interacted with Indo-European at a relatively early date. This is reinforced by a fairly large number of words borrowed from Indo-European, such as the Proto-Kartvelian ṃḳerd (breast), and its possible relation to the Indo-European kerd (heart). Proto-Kartvelian *ṭep “warm” may also be directly derived from Indo-European *tep “warm”.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Kartvelian_language#cite_note-Britannica-1) [ It is also asserted that the name of wine in Indo-European languages is borrowed from Proto-Kartvelian *ɣwino, implicating quite close relations between these languages.???]

Did Proto-Kartvelian
Proto-Kartvelian *ɣwino have a similar word for wine as the Armenians, Greeks, Latins, Hattics ,Hebrews; but not Syriacs- Akkadians or Assyrians[karānu]? If so did Proto-Kartvelians have contact with proto-Armenian, proto-Latin,Hattic,proto-Greek , and ancient Hebrew speakers?


http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:List_of_Proto-Semitic_stems#cite_note-1

compare
wayn-Arabic
yayin-Hebrew
yen-Phonecian
?-Akkadian
?-Syrian

karānu-Assyrian

Does archeological evidence support 6000-8000 year history of wine [[I]Proto-Kartvelian *ɣwino] ? If so did the Proto-Kartvelians and Hattics have a name for the grapes,pottery and other ingredients for the wine process; that was later adopted by Indo-European speakers like Greeks/Latins/Armenians/Hittites whose ancestors came from the steppe ?

oriental
13-04-14, 23:05
"baraf" means ice and "him" means snow in Hindi. The Himalayas were named because of the snow. Hindu Kush means to kill Hindus so the Hindus who crossed the mountains would be killed or alternatively those who wanted to kill Hindus would cross the Hindu Kush mountains to kill Hindus. It shows the split of Iranians and Indians quite well.

The Hittites were R1b and Mitannis R1a.

LeBrok
21-04-14, 19:14
I just watched Anthony Bourdain trip to India. He always presents many cultural aspects besides of food. During this presentation it's been mentioned that Punjab is a province from where the big fierce warriors are coming from.
Well, it is an oral legend, but this is also the place of highest lactose tolerance in India and Haryana is located next door. This place lies in more moderate climatic zone when it comes to India, and only 100km from Himalayan foothills where British spent hiding through hot Indian summer, Shimla.

Wouldn't this be the perfect place for conquerors from Central Asia to stay in India?

oriental
22-04-14, 20:39
Punjabis are, I think, the descendants of the Kushans from the Tarim Basin. During the Tang Dynasty one Kushan reached a very high level in the Tang military and tried to take over. The Kushans were defeated and driven out of the Tarim Basin. Their castles and fortifications were all destroyed. The Kushans then went west and defeated the Parthians and conquered Pakistan. They were Buddhists and it is they who introduced Buddhism to China. They were eventually defeated by the Indians and only a remnant exist and created Sikhism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuezhi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushan_Empire
http://www.indianmirror.com/dynasty/kushandynasty.html

Foods are a good topic. In Darjeeling we used to eat Yak "cheese". It is hard as plastic. You scraped your teeth to eat it. Then there is the paratha kabab. Skewered beef pieces marinated or covered with curry and spices with raw sliced onions wrapped with paratha.

Indian food seems mostly spicy and very sweet to offset the spices. Chowpatty in Bombay Marine Drive beach is the place to go for deserts.

We used to eat street food with flies flying all over but we never got sick. Being born there so we were immune. But if I go there now I would have to be vaccinated or something.

LeBrok
23-04-14, 02:09
Punjabis are, I think, the descendants of the Kushans from the Tarim Basin. During the Tang Dynasty one Kushan reached a very high level in the Tang military and tried to take over. The Kushans were defeated and driven out of the Tarim Basin. Their castles and fortifications were all destroyed. The Kushans then went west and defeated the Parthians and conquered Pakistan. They were Buddhists and it is they who introduced Buddhism to China. They were eventually defeated by the Indians and only a remnant exist and created Sikhism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuezhi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushan_Empire
http://www.indianmirror.com/dynasty/kushandynasty.html

Foods are a good topic. In Darjeeling we used to eat Yak "cheese". It is hard as plastic. You scraped your teeth to eat it. Then there is the paratha kabab. Beef pieces marinated or covered with curry and spices with raw sliced onions wrapped with paratha.

Indian food seems mostly spicy and very sweet to offset the spices. Chowpatty in Bombay Marine Drive beach is the place to go for deserts.

We used to eat street with flies flying all over but we never got sick. Being born there so we were immune. But if I go there now I would have to be vaccinated or something.

I might not be able to see India at all, I just can't stand Curry Spice. I tried few times and I'm getting mild allergic reaction, beside the fact that it doesn't taste good for me.

oriental
23-04-14, 04:01
it doesn't taste good for me.

The Indian curries are very spicy,try milder ones. Just buy curry powder and fry some potatoes and put a little curry powder. It is not the taste. It burns a bit but after a few a while you get used to it then you get a craving. The burn gets the body to produce saliva and sweat which cleanses the body.

There is Thailand curry, Chinese curry and Vietnamese curry. Usually Southeast Asian countries have dished with mild curry. The British love curry after so many Indians and Pakistanis immigrated there. When the British controlled India they hardly touched curry.

Curry is a mixture of many spices. Tumeric is a very good spice in terms of health. The craving could come from the body as it provides the body nourishment. It is like dark chocolate which does not taste good but has many benefits. Tumeric helps prevent certain diseases. There isn't much cancer in India. Indians eat a lot of veggies so it could also also account for better health.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_spices
http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-indian-spices.php

LeBrok
23-04-14, 05:44
Indians eat a lot of veggies so it could also also account for better health.
I'm not sure, they are in 128 place in life expectancy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy