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Echetlaeus
29-03-14, 03:15
Russia has become a hot topic these days due to the events of Crimea. Although these are clearly sad events in our modern history as a continent, one has to account that Russia has played an important role in shaping Europe's history and it is considered a part of it, partially because of land, but also because of its civilization. Therefore I was wondering if Russia will ever become a member or EU in the (probably far) future.

What are your thoughts about that? Would you like Russia in or out?

LeBrok
29-03-14, 03:34
Eventually it will happen but Russia is far from being ready at the moment.

Maleth
29-03-14, 12:50
I agree with LeBrok, it will eventually but it will take many many more years.

GloomyGonzales
29-03-14, 19:43
Russia has become a hot topic these days due to the events of Crimea. Although these are clearly sad events in our modern history as a continent, one has to account that Russia has played an important role in shaping Europe's history and it is considered a part of it, partially because of land, but also because of its civilization. Therefore I was wondering if Russia will ever become a member or EU in the (probably far) future.

What are your thoughts about that? Would you like Russia in or out?

Your question itself shows the difference between mentality of the so-called Europeans and Russians. From Russian point of view the EU can become a part of Russia but not otherwise.

LeBrok
29-03-14, 21:53
Your question itself shows the difference between mentality of the so-called Europeans and Russians. From Russian point of view the EU can become a part of Russia but not otherwise.
We'll put GG, this is another reason why it won't happen any time soon. A different vision, different goals, a different mind set at the moment.

GloomyGonzales
29-03-14, 22:58
We'll put GG, this is another reason why it won't happen any time soon. A different vision, different goals, a different mind set at the moment.

It looks like you do not know European history. When Russia switches in expansion mode you'll see how the history repeats again. I guess in 50-100 years Russia will completely incorporate and absorb the present day EU members.

LeBrok
29-03-14, 23:22
It looks like you do not know European history. When Russia switches in expansion mode you'll see how the history repeats again. I guess in 50-100 years Russia will completely incorporate and absorb the present day EU members.
I'm glad you opened up. It shows to the world that Ukrainians are right to be afraid of Russia and russian mind set and look for protection to the EU and NATO.

GloomyGonzales
30-03-14, 00:57
I'm glad you opened up. It shows to the world that Ukrainians are right to be afraid of Russia and russian mind set and look for protection to the EU and NATO.

Ha-ha-ha. So when the EU incorporates and absorbs countries it's always for the good but when Russia does it it's always for the bad.

LeBrok
30-03-14, 01:16
Ha-ha-ha. So when the EU incorporates and absorbs countries it's always for the good but when Russia does it it's always for the bad.
Yes, by force is bad, by choice is good. And for that reason Russia lost many countries from it's Union (Soviet Union included) and EU gained. Perhaps for russian mindset it is the same thing, but not to the free world.

GloomyGonzales
30-03-14, 04:32
Yes, by force is bad, by choice is good. And for that reason Russia lost many countries from it's Union (Soviet Union included) and EU gained. Perhaps for russian mindset it is the same thing, but not to the free world.

Don't ascribe to me your thoughts. I have never claimed that any countries would be incorporated in Russia (Custom Union) by force.

Goga
30-03-14, 04:50
I heard EU is afraid that Russia becomes part of the EU. 1) Because Russia is too huge. 2) Too strong organized crime (Воры в законе ) in Russia. 1 + 2 = too much anarchy in Russia.

LeBrok
30-03-14, 05:19
Don't ascribe to me your thoughts. I have never claimed that any countries would be incorporated in Russia (Custom Union) by force.
Who wants to join Russian Union hands up! Right...

GloomyGonzales
30-03-14, 10:59
Who wants to join Russian Union hands up! Right...

And again you have proved that you know nothing about Russia.

mihaitzateo
30-03-14, 11:21
Russia has become a hot topic these days due to the events of Crimea. Although these are clearly sad events in our modern history as a continent, one has to account that Russia has played an important role in shaping Europe's history and it is considered a part of it, partially because of land, but also because of its civilization. Therefore I was wondering if Russia will ever become a member or EU in the (probably far) future.

What are your thoughts about that? Would you like Russia in or out?


I do not think European Union is actually good for all European people,is clearly good for Germany,Austria.
Is not good clearly for Spain,Greece,Romania.
Is true that is a lot of corruption in Greece and Romania,but in Spain is not and Spain have worst situation from European Union,as un-employment,while most poor from European Union are Romanians.
For Eastern and South European people European Union seems to not be good .
Take for example Montenegro who already got Euro as currency,European Union leaders are refusing to receive Montenegro in EU.
Greece was a very rich country,with a very high standard of living,before entering EU,now they got a lot more poor.
In Romania,we even got hospitals closing because lack of funds,railroads,no money to maintain them anymore,train got to run with average speed of 40 km/h or even worse in same parts were before was running with about 80km or more average speed...
Besides,I noticed that is a lot of racism against Asian people in European Union,against East and North and Central Asian people,more exactly,middle-eastern are well received into EU,same about Indians and Pakistanis.
And Russia got a lot of North Asian,Central Asian people,with slanted eyes,which are considered by most Europeans savages and so on.
So I think with how actual Europeans are thinking,it would not be good for Russia people to enter EU.
Is true,I do not like Putin too much either.

mihaitzateo
30-03-14, 11:29
I'm glad you opened up. It shows to the world that Ukrainians are right to be afraid of Russia and russian mind set and look for protection to the EU and NATO.

Lol.
People from West Ukraine do not like Putin and the people he put as leaders of Russia.
They do not have something against Russians,in fact,there is a significant number of Russians in West Ukraine also.
For example Kiev got 13% of the population composed of Russians:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev#Ethnic_composition
I am pretty sure that between the protesters from EuroMaidan there were also Russians.
At Muzychko funerals,that great patriot nationalist,was also Russian people.

Maleth
30-03-14, 11:31
Your question itself shows the difference between mentality of the so-called Europeans and Russians. From Russian point of view the EU can become a part of Russia but not otherwise.

The EU = European Union which is a group of countries in a Union, on the other hand Russia is a country so its Russia that would have to join the Union. Its like saying the European union Joined Croatia. If it was the Soviet Union it would have been a different story I guess. It would two unions emerging in one

ElHorsto
30-03-14, 13:25
Something relevant for this thread:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asian_Union

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Independent_States

LeBrok
30-03-14, 18:30
And again you have proved that you know nothing about Russia.

It looks like you do not know European history.
Just because I live in Canada? What a immaculate logic, lol, it is too far to know anything about Europe and Russia. The only thing you proved is how much you love to exaggerate.

oriental
30-03-14, 22:24
Russia would dominate the EU and the US would discourage it as the combined Russia and EU would surpass the US.

martiko
31-03-14, 01:00
the Russian Federation and the CIS is not as ceu an association of states but is a feudal and dictate which subjects countries breakers economically or physically as to the Crimea that Crimea is Russian is a nonsense look and a Russian are viewing a true inhabitant of Crimea and the truth explodes showing imperialist scam Russian leader and anti-democratic.
QED!
So therefore, I voted NO!

Anton, Bear's den
31-03-14, 22:01
Voted No, not interested to clean German toilets or collect berries in Swedish forests like new "Eastern Europeans" & Balts do

Echetlaeus
31-03-14, 22:07
Voted No, not interested to clean German toilets or collect berries in Swedish forests like new "Eastern Europeans" & Balts do

"Red Bear" strong here :)

GloomyGonzales
01-04-14, 03:46
Just because I live in Canada? What a immaculate logic, lol, it is too far to know anything about Europe and Russia. The only thing you proved is how much you love to exaggerate.

Ha-ha-ha. You are one of the most illogical persons I've ever met. You know nothing about Russia and European history not coz you are Canadian (in fact I do not give a shit where you are from) but simply coz you have zero knowledge in these subjects. It's simple like this. You think that you have some expertise in these subjects but in fact you do not but still trying to pretend to be an expert.

Christiaan
15-04-14, 01:26
How ironic Putin is making look the EU and NATO not a bad idea after all. We should probably thank him with flowers for this.


Ha-ha-ha. So when the EU incorporates and absorbs countries it's always for the good but when Russia does it it's always for the bad.


Well, it's not about if, but how you "invite" them, with a sharp knife on the throat... really?! That's not nice... if you wonder why nobody wants to be friends with Putin anymore, this might be the reason. Even the Chinese were not amused behind the doors about the Ukraine situation - they might not vote against it, but they were certainly not agreeing with this aggression.

Putin might win now, but lets see how long it takes that Russia has repaired the damage it has done in the international arena. To clean up the dust of this fall out will take a looooooooong time, the EU and the US will not forget this easily and they will be much better prepared the next time.

I wonder who will ever replace Putin, (probably someone from his FSB friends) if he doesn't find a successor you will end up with a 90 year old grumpy president that won't let go of politics... that's really sad.

Christiaan
16-04-14, 22:20
It looks like you do not know European history. When Russia switches in expansion mode you'll see how the history repeats again. I guess in 50-100 years Russia will completely incorporate and absorb the present day EU members.

Well, lets see, I am pretty confident that will not happen.

A different scenario is more likely, the annexation of the Krim is a sign of political failure to make Ukraine an ally, by forcing the Ukraine to give up the Krim, it lost its influence at least in the west of the Ukraine.

By that time you referring to Russia has probably big internal problems and all its Eurasian allies( Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, Armenia etc) will not listen to the music of the Kreml anymore. And that is something Putin is really scared of. If Russia continuous to bully its neighbouring countries it will loose more and more allies and partners.
It might get driven in the arms of China...and not sure how that relationship will turn out especially considering the territories in the East of Russia.

ElHorsto
17-04-14, 00:13
So much nervousness here. EU elections are coming soon! :D

Anton, Bear's den
20-04-14, 23:33
Well, lets see, I am pretty confident that will not happen.

A different scenario is more likely, the annexation of the Krim is a sign of political failure to make Ukraine an ally, by forcing the Ukraine to give up the Krim, it lost its influence at least in the west of the Ukraine..

Well, western Ukraine always was a problem. Polish-Austian neo-nazi frankenstein of "Lebrok style" brought in Soviet Union only extra costs and troubles, so RF did not lost anything. East Ukraine making almost the whole Ukr GDP, will be nice ally for Russia on the western border.


By that time you referring to Russia has probably big internal problems and all its Eurasian allies( Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, Armenia etc) will not listen to the music of the Kreml anymore. And that is something Putin is really scared of. If Russia continuous to bully its neighbouring countries it will loose more and more allies and partners.
It might get driven in the arms of China...and not sure how that relationship will turn out especially considering the territories in the East of Russia.

EU & US also have big internal problems. Hope Russia will finally get rid of dollar in it's economy and will trade more with China & Asia in general. Europe unfortunetly became a complete american lapdog. In particular Merkel and Germany is very disappointing.

Christiaan
22-04-14, 20:30
American lapdog? Mwah, depends. Christian Democrats are usually more pro American that's true and so are the English in general, look in Iraq. But what do you expect the EU has no military strategy or defence, this is still NATO with the US as a convenient partner. But this will have to change even the Americans know this.

Oh yes, we have our own problems we have will have to innovate otherwise we will have trouble compete with the B(r)ic countries . If our education system doesn't fail in the meantime, we will do just fine. We will have to adapt to new world order.

However Russia tries to hang on to something in a way that will work against them finally. Don't hug the hamster too hard, that his eyes are popping out. Lets say it this way, it doesn't make loyal allies when you have a political crisis...you never know... in other words they will leave if they can.

And this brings me to Putin how long wants he to be president of Russia... indefinitely? Does he wait until cloning techniques comes available, so that he can clone himself.
But serious this in itself is a risk for Russia. If there is no serious opposition you will end up with an idiot again as president and/or a corrupt bastard that thinks he owns the state.

mihaitzateo
22-04-14, 22:13
At the moment,Russia people would have to loose if they join EU.
If they get rid of Putin,they can become a country as rich,as Norway is.
For this,they should start behaving and having leaders according to their Nordic race (with most Russians being Nordic people) and not a leadership composed by dictators.
But for the future,maybe Russians will want to help Europeans from EU,because it seems they need help and in this situation,Russia could join EU.

LeBrok
23-04-14, 02:16
Well, western Ukraine always was a problem. Polish-Austian neo-nazi frankenstein of "Lebrok style"
Yes very typical for freedom loving "Citizens of the world", lol.

EU & US also have big internal problems. Hope Russia will finally get rid of dollar in it's economy and will trade more with China[/QUOTE] That's because you have no idea how economy works. China has 2 trillion dollars, so guess with what they will pay for your gas. whahahahaha

I guess now you are realizing how strong US economy is and how insignificant is Russian Ruble. Keep building your empire with rubles and outdated military equipment.

LeBrok
23-04-14, 02:22
And this brings me to Putin how long wants he to be president of Russia... indefinitely? Does he wait until cloning techniques comes available, so that he can clone himself. Remember that most Russians love Putin and his promise of new Russian Empire. They will vote for him again and again, till they hit the bottom of huge recession. It is like dealing with an addict.

But serious this in itself is a risk for Russia. If there is no serious opposition you will end up with an idiot again as president and/or a corrupt bastard that thinks he owns the state. Oh yeah, and anyone who promises Russian Empire. It is very said.

LeBrok
23-04-14, 02:25
At the moment,Russia people would have to loose if they join EU.
If they get rid of Putin,they can become a country as rich,as Norway is.
For this,they should start behaving and having leaders according to their Nordic race (with most Russians being Nordic people) and not a leadership composed by dictators.
But for the future,maybe Russians will want to help Europeans from EU,because it seems they need help and in this situation,Russia could join EU.
Russians never had democracy till recently. They've been always told what to do by Tsar or First Secretary. They're just learning how to use democracy, and it will take them a long time to have a proper country.

Christiaan
23-04-14, 13:05
Yes, for now that is true, but nobody forces him physically to get elected (he probably wouldn't let them anyway :P), that is still his choice.

mihaitzateo
23-04-14, 14:54
Russians never had democracy till recently. They've been always told what to do by Tsar or First Secretary. They're just learning how to use democracy, and it will take them a long time to have a proper country.

They do not have democracy now either,mr Putin is like a Tsar.
But I think they have a strong democratic current ,especially in the European part of Russia.

LeBrok
23-04-14, 16:26
Yes, for now that is true, but nobody forces him physically to get elected (he probably wouldn't let them anyway :P), that is still his choice. Yes he wants to be a leader and he loves every minute of it. I was saying that his vision of Russia is very seductive to most population, that's why he gets re-elected. He doesn't need to cheat or cancel elections.

Anton, Bear's den
24-04-14, 21:06
American lapdog? Mwah, depends. Christian Democrats are usually more pro American that's true and so are the English in general, look in Iraq. But what do you expect the EU has no military strategy or defence, this is still NATO with the US as a convenient partner. But this will have to change even the Americans know this.

In fact the Germany - the leader of Europe don't have full sovereignty, to talk about the rest of Europe not even need.
That happened because the Europe still under occupation. Yes the commies are gone, the bear returned into his forest, but there are still americans who invaded from Normandy in 1945. They are still keep their military bases in Europe, they are still cultivate politicians into their "liberal colleges" for european governments, slowly erasing like a snake European identity towards the full Americanization. European countries today like vassals in medieval ages sent it's armies to fight in yankee wars, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya. Latest "know-how" of yankees is so called: "free trade agreement" a cunning ploy to turn Europe into a colony, economically. There are no Churchills, de Gaulles, Bismarcks in Europe anymore, only vegetables like Rompuy & Hollande. Europe is finished...Fortunately for me Russia is not Europe http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif well, not quite Europe http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif.

Of course from our side will be stupid to integrate with such Europe. No matter from what metals the prison cell is made, gold or iron, it's still the anglo-saxon cell. By other words I myself wanna more independent Europe, even if it will be ruled by Germany and sometimes anti-Russia, until this moment is premature to talk about the any kind of integration.

Yankees failed with Russia's transformation into lapdog since they thought that we were defeated while we just changed the form of rule, from communist totalitarian super dictatorship to sovereign democracy. It's like in Sid Meier's Civilization games, you just getting several turns of anarchy (drunkard Yeltsin) but after everything come back to business as usual http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif



And this brings me to Putin how long wants he to be president of Russia... indefinitely? Does he wait until cloning techniques comes available, so that he can clone himself.
But serious this in itself is a risk for Russia. If there is no serious opposition you will end up with an idiot again as president and/or a corrupt bastard that thinks he owns the state.

Vlad already packed his bags, but then Americans presented him the Crimea as a gift and his popularity raised to 82%. Hell don't know now when Vlad retires http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif

Anyway, don't think that Vlad decides everything here. Even communist Soviet Union was ruled by a party. It's a mistake of Hannibal to think that need just to eliminate a single person or city and the opponent power will be defeated. When after the battle at Cannes Hannibal sieged Rome he understood that Rome is not just a city, it's a system.

Christiaan
25-04-14, 17:52
We are not a colony, so far the Amercians do not invade us because we don't agree with them and yes they stay on their bases and they don't attack our barracks. As I said before it is convenient to have them as an ally, I'm not saying that is a good attitude in the long term. Europe is not finished it is adapting to a new world order, but that takes time to sink into the minds of politicians with a predominantly national mindset.

Russia is at a point Europe was 70 to 40 years ago, when we lost almost all of our colonies. The Dutch were almost 400 years in Indonesia, and yet we had to make a step back. I imagine that this will happen to Russia as well. So hang to your imperialistic idea of Russia as long as you want to, but this trend is not reversible, unless you want to use a lot of force which makes you very unpopular in the rest of the world.

This up and down sounds like a manic depression, this is not economic environment you would like to invest to, unless you want to cope with a certain risk. Back to normal? Well, as I said it is not quite reversible or is it?

About vegetables, vegetables are very healthy. We can eat them, but they can't eat us ;). That's how democracy should work.

And no, I don't think in terms of enemies you have to crush, but even one person can make the difference to the better or worse, even if there is a system behind it.

Anton, Bear's den
26-04-14, 23:40
We are not a colony, so far the Amercians do not invade us because we don't agree with them and yes they stay on their bases and they don't attack our barracks.

They don't invade you because they already did it in 1944 and never left.


As I said before it is convenient to have them as an ally, I'm not saying that is a good attitude in the long term. Europe is not finished it is adapting to a new world order, but that takes time to sink into the minds of politicians with a predominantly national mindset.

I am guess it's convenient for you until they have resources to pay for protectection of your country. Well, I am understand that position, but and you understand my that for Russia the USA is enemy.


Russia is at a point Europe was 70 to 40 years ago, when we lost almost all of our colonies. The Dutch were almost 400 years in Indonesia, and yet we had to make a step back. I imagine that this will happen to Russia as well. So hang to your imperialistic idea of Russia as long as you want to, but this trend is not reversible, unless you want to use a lot of force which makes you very unpopular in the rest of the world.

Russia's "colony - mother country" system of relations was different from the western, if the western countries pumped out all the juice out of their colonies then the communists in many ways fed their colonies at the expense of mother country to keep them loyal (like subsidization of Middle Asian "stans" or even Ukraine who transformed from pretty developed state with space technologies & powerful industry in 1991 to medieval age hellhole to 2014). In a sense, we got rid of the ballast. So nor me nor guys in Kremlin don't really think about capturing of ex-Soviet republics physically like Lenin & co did. For Kremlin profitable to include them in the process of economical integration, for example amount of trade between participants of the Customs Union grew at times. Furthermore Kremlin does not need those who do not want to be with Russia, in case of Ukraine it would be better to cut the country on two parts since the country consist from two civilisations. I thought it was obvious that people of eastern orthodox-tzar-atheist-communist civilization don't want to live in one country with wild nazi chimpanzees.


About vegetables, vegetables are very healthy. We can eat them, but they can't eat us ;). That's how democracy should work.

I am afraid these vegetables will finally sell remnants of your independence without asking your opinion to transatlantic "uncle" and former metropoly will become a future colony


And no, I don't think in terms of enemies you have to crush, but even one person can make the difference to the better or worse, even if there is a system behind it.

Say that to Obama, guy can't even accept a health care law without consultation with the oligarchy http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif he needs to be inspired http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif

Christiaan
27-04-14, 19:41
What you call an "invasion" of western allies was for many a liberation and it still is, unlike the Soviet "liberation" which was perceived as an occupation only shortly after. The Americans would have given up some of their bases much earlier if the Soviet union wasn't such a threat to Western Europe. And I think they preferably would be stationed in the pacific right now if only they Europeans could get their act together when it comes to the defence of Europe.


Russia's "colony - mother country" system of relations was different from the western, if the western countries pumped out all the juice out of their colonies then the communists in many ways fed their colonies at the expense of mother country to keep them loyal (like subsidization of Middle Asian "stans" or even Ukraine who transformed from pretty developed state with space technologies & powerful industry in 1991 to medieval age hellhole to 2014). In a sense, we got rid of the ballast. So nor me nor guys in Kremlin don't really think about capturing of ex-Soviet republics physically like Lenin & co did. For Kremlin profitable to include them in the process of economical integration, for example amount of trade between participants of the Customs Union grew at times. Furthermore Kremlin does not need those who do not want to be with Russia, in case of Ukraine it would be better to cut the country on two parts since the country consist from two civilisations. I thought it was obvious that people of eastern orthodox-tzar-atheist-communist civilization don't want to live in one country with wild nazi chimpanzees.

So with different you mean better ? The invasion of the Caucasus was pretty bloody, so don't think too highly of Russian imperialism. Russian history is not made of saints either. To be honest, I see almost no difference right now, between pro-russians and the Ukrainian right sector(minus peaceful Euromaidan protestors) -except the first one is better armed. Both have an unhealthy obsession with nationality.


I am afraid these vegetables will finally sell remnants of your independence without asking your opinion to transatlantic "uncle" and former metropoly will become a future colony

Well, let's see how the Americans see the trade agreement, when they have to apply EU regulations on their products :P...hell, those bloody communists in Europe! Do we really have to do this from now on?

Aw, not so harsh about Obama, he did achieve more than George Bush did. And this case he made a huge difference even he had some serious opposition.

LeBrok
27-04-14, 21:20
They don't invade you because they already did it in 1944 and never left.



I am guess it's convenient for you until they have resources to pay for protectection of your country. Well, I am understand that position, but and you understand my that for Russia the USA is enemy.

For fun lets assume that a miracle happened and you are right. USA indeed invaded all Western Europe and few other countries, and enslaved the populations for US benefits. There is a little caveat in your logic though. All the "conquered" countries are prosperous and ones of richest in the world, and not only in Europe but Japan and S. Korea too. How is this possible, when US should be sucking them dry? Isn't it the priority and main reason of conquering others?
This just proves your statement wrong, wrong, wrong.

This is how true Imperialist hegemony works. When Soviet Union "liberated" others and was "helping" them a lot, there was a constant shortage of basic goods, from food to toiletry. There were years when even the gray and hard toilet paper (there was only one kind) was unavailable and people were forced to use old newspapers instead (I was always looking for Pravda to use for this purpose). So, thanks for "helping", and "protecting" lol. But to be honest there were always 3 products available even in deepest recession: jam, pickles and official newspaper of communist party, proclaiming that shortages of products are temporary and caused by cunning western imperialists. Lol, precious memories...
Few short years after communism collapse, the stores were full with products. Wow, without the "help" of Soviet Union Poland was doing economically much better right away. 25 years later Polish GDP is 3 times bigger than it was with Russian help, with no shortage of food and other goods ever since. It became obvious which direction the help went. You are welcome Anton. It is one of best examples how occupying imperialist power can suck a vassal country dry.
We should mention that Ukraine remain in Russian helping hands till today, with economy stagnant and collapsing. Thanks for helping Anton. Did it ever occur to you that whoever Russia helped and helps was poor and remained poor? Yes, just listen to the sucking sound of Russian "help".

Interestingly, to be more perverted, Russians had charity boxes in public places to collect funds for "Hungry Poles" and other East European "friends". Ordinary Russians honestly believed that they help "friends" and take nothing in return. Anton still believes that this is true, and that all recent Russian maladies are caused by Western Imperialism and their agents. This is 100 year old propaganda which started after revolution. His beliefs are very pronounced in Ukrainian thread (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29635-Should-Crimea-be-an-independent-country). Communist propaganda went so deep even affecting today's Russian society many years later. So deep that even educated Anton can disregard all facts and logic and remain delusional in spite. The saddest part is that he represents 80% of Russians who are dreaming about new empire to protect themselves from the "decadent, greedy and imperialistic" West.

LeBrok
27-04-14, 21:22
The invasion of the Caucasus was pretty bloody, so don't think too highly of Russian imperialism. Russian history is not made of saints either. To be honest I don't see very little difference right now between pro-russians and the Ukrainian right sector(minus peaceful Euromaidan protestors) -except the first one is better armed. Both have an unhealthy obsession with nationality.

Isn't it funny? They hate each other the most but they are exactly the same.

Christiaan
27-04-14, 22:24
Anton uses a lot of "tu quoque" argumentation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque) which is all to often a sign of proud people with poor debating skills. Putin reacts in the same way by the way if he's asked about some human rights issues, first he denies the critical remarks and than he uses tu quoqe arguments. http://www.zie.nl/video/algemeen/Rusland-discrimineert-homos-niet/m1nzctmfg8j2

In other words: "You are saying there is something wrong with us? Look at yourself there is even something more wrong about you guys(...you hypocrites).

So according to Anton, everything seems to be legitimized as long as we all are labelled as hypocrites. "So everyone shut up, this is not your business, stop criticising, because in the end we all are hypocrites"; which in itself I suppose is a thought terminating cliché.

I have no problem to admit that we made mistakes ourself, Anton. ... so keep up with comparing the mistakes that we made with the Russian mistakes if that makes you happy.

Anton, Bear's den
27-04-14, 23:19
What you call an "invasion" of western allies was for many a liberation and it still is, unlike the Soviet "liberation" which was perceived as an occupation only shortly after.

American "liberation" not very much different from the Soviet, they were just more convinient for western Europe since they support free market and stuff... but also establish puppet governments, rewriting history books, marginalizing the countries they being present, creating "doggy" elites, countries with yankee occupation lose any kind of independence. I am hardly can image European governments could call for Americans to come and take their sovereignty in any other conditions.
If you think that all Hitler's mistakes were fixed when communists left captured part of Europe then you are mistaking, that's only half of the deal.
Anyway, your fate into your hands, if everything is suits you then nice. Maybe to be a puppet is your level, born to crawl can not fly. I am will not tear my hair on this occasion.
From my personal point of view the Germany started all this mess in 1939, so responsibility for the salvation of west Europe is theirs http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif


The invasion of the Caucasus was pretty bloody, so don't think too highly of Russian imperialism. Russian history is not made of saints either.

Russia and does not pretend to be a saint http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif where I am wrote that Russia is saint? http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif

About Chechnya wanna say that there is was no alternative. By invading Dagestan radical muslims showed that they can't live in peace, only constant war. It was necessary to eliminate the fundamentalist nest.


To be honest I don't see very little difference right now between pro-russians and the Ukrainian right sector(minus peaceful Euromaidan protestors) -except the first one is better armed. Both have an unhealthy obsession with nationality.

Modern Ukraine is failed state, no wonder that it's full of radical forces. I am just wanna say that "to calm" that country can only seperation on two (as minimum) parts.


Well, let's see how the Americans see the trade agreement, when they have to apply EU regulations on their products :P...hell, those bloody communists in Europe! Do we really have to do this from now on?

According to that agreement European agriculture will be destroyed by cheap GMO food of American corporations. American corporations currently bribing EU politicians.

I am wish to Lebrok to eat more GMO "Monsanto" food, maybe when second head will grow out of his a** he will become smarter http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif


Aw, not so harsh about Obama, he did achieve more than George Bush did. And this case he made a huge difference even he had some serious opposition.

Bush was a true face of America, crazy imperialist cowboy who invades countries because "lack of democracy there" lol http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gifhttp://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gifhttp://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif

Now Obama wanna make it look that nothing had happened. Actually have nothing against him, but he is unfortunately a puppet. Like a hired manager for 100 richest American families.

Christiaan
27-04-14, 23:42
Anyway, your fate into your hands, if everything is suits you then nice. Maybe to be a puppet is your level, born to crawl can not fly. I am will not tear my hair on this occasion.

Well, as long as I don't feel a hand in my a**, I am pretty confident that I'll do fine. Once you believe what is broadcasted on "Voice of Russia"(Russian Fox news) or similair Russian medium however, you might catch that paranoid sensation you are suffering from, so be careful.

LeBrok
28-04-14, 00:10
Anton uses a lot of "tu quoque" argumentation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque) which is all to often a sign of proud people with poor debating skills. Putin reacts in the same way by the way if he's asked about some human rights issues, first he denies the critical remarks and than he uses tu quoqe arguments. http://www.zie.nl/video/algemeen/Rusland-discrimineert-homos-niet/m1nzctmfg8j2

In other words: "You are saying there is something wrong with us? Look at yourself there is even something more wrong about you guys(...you hypocrites).
.
Spot on observation, plus ridicule, twist facts, ridicule.

Christiaan
28-04-14, 01:24
Isn't it funny? They hate each other the most but they are exactly the same.

They should have their own club house... oh no, wait they hate each other... Ah well they figure it out...

ItsePerkele
29-04-14, 02:10
Russia will not want to join ... and to think Germany and France want Russia to join is fantasy ... Never because Russia is too large and would become to important part of EU if join.

Anton, Bear's den
23-04-15, 19:45
The Yankees started this whole mess in the Ukraine just because they are afraid of integration of Russia and Germany / EU. Ukraine is now playing the role of the separating wedge between.

knjaz Milos
29-05-15, 00:36
Yes, by force is bad, by choice is good. And for that reason Russia lost many countries from it's Union (Soviet Union included) and EU gained. Perhaps for russian mindset it is the same thing, but not to the free world.


I think viewpoint of Poles and Czech tend to be skewed on the issue. There is a tendency (not saying it is also the case with you) to blame Russians for Soviet Union misdeeds. But Russia is often left out in enumerating victims of Soviet regime. Think of all Russians who ended up in concentration camps in Siberia. Remind yourself that Russia as a country did not grow with creation of Soviet Union but has shrinked. E.g. it lost Crimea and Georgia and many other parts. It did not get parts inhabited by Russians as you would expect that conquering nation would do. Remember that the key figures of Soviet Union were not really Russian. as far as I remember Lenin was Jewish, Stalin was Georgian, and Khrushchev was Ukrainian. In fact, first actual Russian that got real importance in political elite of USSR was probably Gorbachev.Now were really Russians the ones who ruled over others by force or was it others (communists) ruling over Russians, Czechs, Poles, Ukrainians and all other people in Soviet Union and eastern block...In fact I am convinced that you are not blaming modern Germans for Hitler and his nationalistic ideology, while you tend to blame Russians for anti-national ideology that ruled over them and for deeds of e.g. Stalin (Georgian and not Russian).

I mention this because similar happened with ex-Yugoslavia. Tito was half Croat half Slovene. Many, in fact most, chief political figures were also Croats and Slovenes and yet in 90s Croat and Slovene media were screaming their guts out about THEM being occupied politically and economically in that ex Yugoslavia, completely disregarding the facts e.g. that Croatia and Slovenia were pushed or allowed (depending on perspective) to be economically most developed, that Catholic Croats and Slovenes were allowed to be religious and nationally aware while Orthodox Serbs could end up jobless or even imprisoned if insisting on being religious or nationally aware, that advantage is given to latin script over the cyrilic and that in addition communist regime gave a separate republic to Croats, to Slovenes, to Macedonians, but did split core ethnic space of Serbs in 4 (Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro and Serbia) out of 6 republics and did additionally split Serbia with introducing 2 autonomous provinces ruled by communists from minorities living in those parts of Serbia. Hence based on all this its hard to see how were Croats and Slovenes suppressed in any way politically, historically, economically or culturally. No surprise that a mass hysteria of mass media, coupled with history of conflicts in last century, and with artificial borders brought up by political elite of communist Yugoslavia, led to wars.

Not saying that Czech republic was not shamefully occupied in 1968th. Just stating that Russians themselves were occupied by such a regime in 1917th. Try to see it from their perspective. Just because they were most numerous in such a state doesnot mean they were not victims of such state and ideology. And I am certainly not comparing position of Czechs and Polish in Soviet block to role of Croatia and Slovenia in ex-Yugoslavia. Political elite of Croatia and Slovenia was in fact leading communist Yugoslavia, which is not the case for political elite of Czechoslovakia or Poland. But compare e.g. right of Russians to be religious with right of Czechs and Poles to be religious. Before blaming Russians think of all the Russians ending up in concentration camps in Siberia.

Piro Ilir
16-08-15, 13:03
Ha-ha-ha. So when the EU incorporates and absorbs countries it's always for the good but when Russia does it it's always for the bad.
Depends. EU didn't forced any country to incorporate within. I can't say the same for Russia

Piro Ilir
16-08-15, 13:04
Yes, by force is bad, by choice is good. And for that reason Russia lost many countries from it's Union (Soviet Union included) and EU gained. Perhaps for russian mindset it is the same thing, but not to the free world.
Between Russia and EU is a big huge and large gap: the democracy

Piro Ilir
16-08-15, 13:13
The Yankees started this whole mess in the Ukraine just because they are afraid of integration of Russia and Germany / EU. Ukraine is now playing the role of the separating wedge between.
There are not throughout Ukraine American soldiers. But there are already Russian soldiers in Crimea and on east south Ukraine. Two Russian soldiers were captured by the Ukraine army inside Ukraine. Russian invaded Crimea and after that they held the referendum, which really was manipulated.

Serena
09-06-16, 09:43
You believe in democracy in the EU for real?

gyms
28-06-16, 14:57
There are not throughout Ukraine American soldiers. But there are already Russian soldiers in Crimea and on east south Ukraine. Two Russian soldiers were captured by the Ukraine army inside Ukraine. Russian invaded Crimea and after that they held the referendum, which really was manipulated.

What does the actual potential show? US military spending is higher than that of all countries in the world taken together. The aggregate military spending of NATO countries is 10 times, note – 10 times higher than that of the Russian Federation. Russia has virtually no bases abroad. We have the remnants of our armed forces (since Soviet times) in Tajikistan, on the border with Afghanistan, which is an area where the terrorist threat is particularly high. The same role is played by our airbase in Kyrgyzstan; it is also aimed at addressing the terrorist threat and was set up at the request of the Kyrgyz authorities after a terrorist attack perpetrated by terrorists from Afghanistan on Kyrgyzstan.
http://www.mintpressnews.com/putin-publish-a-world-map-and-mark-al-the-u-s-military-bases-on-it-you-will-see-the-difference-between-russia-and-the-us/206343/

GloomyGonzales
28-06-16, 16:47
From Russian point of view Russia can't be a part of EU but EU itself can be a part of Russia.

Dinarid
02-07-16, 08:33
Will never happen. But most importantly is that the EU must change. It must drop "ever closer union" because the European people do not want this. It should remain as a confederation or at least very close alliance. No more open borders. Military cooperation, and economic cooperation are good. Decentralization must happen as soon as possible, no rule from Brussels. The Islamophile elite must be voted out, and Europe should pursue a closer alliance with America, Canada, Israel, and India.

The new European Union should make it a priority to defend Western civilization and values. Europe must stand strong against Russia, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Qatar. The incompetence and Islamophilia have forced angry right-wing movements to turn to Putin and Russia who is benefiting from the collapse of the Union. They are exploiting Europe's weakness. But I am hoping that when the EU is reformed Herzegovina and Republika Srpska can break away from Islamic Bosnia and then join the union. Kosovo and Bosnia should be excluded, as they are Islamic. Albania is becoming less Islamic and supports European values so they should be allowed.

Garrick
02-07-16, 20:19
People love to have a romantic idea of the nation and sovereignty. This has its justification, and national sentiments have their weight but should not be exaggerated. We live in 21. century, and many things have changed. Loose union cannot work. Small European countries cannot compete with giants in the world, it is a loosing battle. Only strong union can compete including one currency, banking union, fiscal union, political union and federalization. It is European path.

Dinarid
02-07-16, 22:01
People love to have a romantic idea of the nation and sovereignty. This has its justification, and national sentiments have their weight but should not be exaggerated. We live in 21. century, and many things have changed. Loose union cannot work. Small European countries cannot compete with giants in the world, it is a loosing battle. Only strong union can compete including one currency, banking union, fiscal union, political union and federalization. It is European path.

Not if the people do not want it. If sovereign nations can't function in the modern world then maybe this is a problem with the modern world. The argument that you make is made by most European federalists and is fundamentally flawed. Independence movements are happening all over the world; the people do not want to live in a superstate. Even the nations you mention that European countries cannot compete with have problems with independence movements. Russia is collapsing and has no control over the Caucasus ethnic republics. America is increasingly divided by various political ideologies and regional differences (but in my opinion should be a friend of Europe). Even Mexico now has secessionist movements, and China cannot maintain its iron grip over the population. Also it is because of liberal Europhiles that Islam is threatening European culture and values, so your project wouldn't even work as it is.

Garrick
03-07-16, 01:12
Not if the people do not want it. If sovereign nations can't function in the modern world then maybe this is a problem with the modern world. The argument that you make is made by most European federalists and is fundamentally flawed. Independence movements are happening all over the world; the people do not want to live in a superstate. Even the nations you mention that European countries cannot compete with have problems with independence movements. Russia is collapsing and has no control over the Caucasus ethnic republics. America is increasingly divided by various political ideologies and regional differences (but in my opinion should be a friend of Europe). Even Mexico now has secessionist movements, and China cannot maintain its iron grip over the population. Also it is because of liberal Europhiles that Islam is threatening European culture and values, so your project wouldn't even work as it is.

Just opposite. Small European states nations cannot prevent Islamic extremists. But strong EU can. EU border forces can protect south borders very efficient.

National romance can be beautiful, however this is 21. century where it is easy to look at the advantages and disadvantages of some options. Certainly superstate can become reality. The euro zone will expand to the whole EU, banking union is on verge, fiscal union should more time however it will see the light of day.

Europhiles can have different ideologies, it doesn't matter if they more right or left, in general people do not have to be Europhiles, interests and opportunities that exist in superstate make it much desirable option for most people. Bigger state = bigger opportunities for individual, small state = narrowness of opportunities.

DuPidh
03-07-16, 02:17
From Russian point of view Russia can't be a part of EU but EU itself can be a part of Russia.

Russia has the right approach. They are trying to create their own union as a counterweight to the EU. But it makes sense for Russia to join NATO. Russia can not defend their borders against China, Afghanistan. Chinese have immediate plans to overtake Mongolia and after that the Sino-Russian border will become unprotected. The participation of Russia in NATO will be a deterrent

MaxCRO
03-07-16, 14:21
European Union can function as loose union of soverign nations, with common trade market.

No orthodox country should be allowed in the EU, especially not Russia.

Garrick
03-07-16, 15:34
European Union can function as loose union of soverign nations, with common trade market.

It is only one of phase towards fully integration.

Phases after common market are: Economic union, Economic and Monetary union, Fiscal union and Complete integration - Political union.

European Union is economic union (common market with a custom union).

Eurozone is economic union and monetary union (with euro as currency).

All EU countries will introduce euro and become Eurozone members (it is just a matter of time).

Fiscal union is integration of fiscal and budgetary policy of member states, it is next step.

Political union is federalist system, it is final step.



No orthodox country should be allowed in the EU, especially not Russia.

You think Greece, Bulgaria, and Romania should be out of EU?

And what it means orthodox country?

In Greece, Bulgaria and Romania which are members of European union, as in Macedonia, Serbia and Montenegro which are in the process of joining the EU, and in Moldova, etc. (which will be in process in future time) religion is separated from state. They are secular states not religious states. In these countries there are Orthodox Christians, Protestant Christians, Catholic Christians, Muslims, Atheists, etc., everyone is free to chose religion which want or to be non believer. European Union is not based on religion, every European country can be part of EU.

MaxCRO
03-07-16, 16:21
It is only one of phase towards fully integration.

Phases after common market are: Economic union, Economic and Monetary union, Fiscal union and Complete integration - Political union.

European Union is economic union (common market with a custom union).

Eurozone is economic union and monetary union (with euro as currency).

All EU countries will introduce euro and become Eurozone members (it is just a matter of time).

Fiscal union is integration of fiscal and budgetary policy of member states, it is next step.

Political union is federalist system, it is final step.

Federalism suits interest of countries like Germany and France, as it would speedy their economic and political domination in the Union.

No other country wants it, espacially not mass immigration and radicalism that is currently flourisning in heart of the EU.

Fiscal Union was already a mistake. Smaller countries that have kept their fiscal indipendence fared better than members of the Eurozone.

Eu should be nothing more than trade Union, as it was originally designed.





You think Greece, Bulgaria, and Romania should be out of EU?


And what it means orthodox country?

In Greece, Bulgaria and Romania which are members of European union, as in Macedonia, Serbia and Montenegro which are in the process of joining the EU, and in Moldova, etc. (which will be in process in future time) religion is separated from state. They are secular states not religious states. In these countries there are Orthodox Christians, Protestant Christians, Catholic Christians, Muslims, Atheists, etc., everyone is free to chose religion which want or to be non believer. European Union is not based on religion, every European country can be part of EU.

Greece is failure, money leeching country in constant state of near-bankrupcy.

Romania and Bulgaria are poorest members of the EU, their biggest countribution being export of Gypsy criminals trough out the West. Mind that EU does not benefit them either, as most of their educated population left the country.

Orthodox countries are secular on paper only, it is one of main reasons of their poor socioeconomic development. Russia is no exception, and already has Eurasian economic Union. They are anti European traditionally, and nobody wants them closer.

I don't see differennce in admitting Russia or Turkey, both should stay out.

Yetos
03-07-16, 16:46
European Union can function as loose union of soverign nations, with common trade market.

No orthodox country should be allowed in the EU, especially not Russia.

just a question,

protestants and muslims are allowed to EU?
pagans and animists should be allowed to EU?
Hindu Buddists and Sintoists ?

which religion should be allowed to EU?

MaxCRO
03-07-16, 16:52
just a question,

protestants and muslims are allowed to EU?
pagans and animists should be allowed to EU?
Hindu Buddists and Sintoists ?

Islam is not welcome in Europe for sure.

Comparison of Protestants with Orthodox is impossible, since Protestant Churches are not politically tied to host country, neither influence them in any significant manner.

North-West Europe is mainly irreligious today. Problem with Orthdox countries is not religious, but rather culturo-political.

Yetos
03-07-16, 17:06
Islam is not welcome in Europe for sure.

Comparison of Protestants with Orthodox is impossible, since Protestant Churches are not politically tied to host country, neither influence them in any significant manner.

North-West Europe is mainly irreligious today. Problem with Orthdox countries is not religious, but rather culturo-political.

so by what I see you want EU to be a catholic coalition,
then England did well and vote Brexit since they are protestants,
correct?

Garrick
03-07-16, 17:29
Federalism suits interest of countries like Germany and France, as it would speedy their economic and political domination in the Union.

No other country wants it, espacially not mass immigration and radicalism that is currently flourisning in heart of the EU.

Fiscal Union was already a mistake. Smaller countries that have kept their fiscal indipendence fared better than members of the Eurozone.

Eu should be nothing more than trade Union, as it was originally designed.

European union today is economic union, three steps ahead free trade area, two steps ahead customs union, and step ahead common market.

Eurozone is economic and monetary union, step ahead economic union.

Yes there are proponents of divergent trends, but it is hard to happen, it is more likely that all EU members will become members of Eurozone (including Croatia).

Next steps are banking union (what is certain) and fiscal union (what requires some more time).

Final step is political union (federal system).


Greece is failure, money leeching country in constant state of near-bankrupcy.

Romania and Bulgaria are poorest members of the EU, their biggest countribution being export of Gypsy criminals trough out the West. Mind that EU does not benefit them either, as most of their educated population left the country. Orthodox countries are secular on paper only, it is one of main reasons of their poor socioeconomic development.

Greece has bigger GDP (PPP) per capita than Croatia.

IMF (2015) GDP (PPP) per capita, Int$

44. Greece, 26,449

57. Croatia, 21,581

And Romania is very close to Croatia.

59. Romania, 20,787

When were you in Romania? Some parts in Romania are more developed than in Croatia.

If we speak about debt, yes Greece has large debt, but Croatia has larger debt than Romania and Bulgaria.

Countries by external debt, $ per capita, IMF data

Greece 47,636

Croatia 13,519

Bulgaria 6,261

Romania 4,485

Greece, Romania and Bulgaria are not secular only in paper, thinking that these countries are not secular is nonsense.

And Greece is the cradle of democracy.



Russia is no exception, and already has Eurasian economic Union. They are anti European traditionally, and nobody wants them closer.

I don't see differennce in admitting Russia or Turkey, both should stay out.

Yes, Russia has Eurasian union. Russia is completely different story, this country has much bigger territory in Asia than in Europe. Russia never demanded to be EU member, and it is surely Russia will not demand to be EU member.

Turkey and European Union have long relations and negotiations. Turkey application is from 1987. Negotiations started 2005. We will see if Turkey will become EU member. Someone should not have prejudices against Turkey. Every candidate for EU must fulfill standards and requirements, but slow process of Turkish accession to EU is due to non-fullfilment of requirements. From present-day perspective it is possible that Turkey is not ready for EU yet, but maybe it can be changed in future, who knows.

MaxCRO
03-07-16, 19:44
European union today is economic union, three steps ahead free trade area, two steps ahead customs union, and step ahead common market.

Eurozone is economic and monetary union, step ahead economic union.

Yes there are proponents of divergent trends, but it is hard to happen, it is more likely that all EU members will become members of Eurozone (including Croatia).

Next steps are banking union (what is certain) and fiscal union (what requires some more time).

Final step is political union (federal system).

You're ignoring the fact that most people inside EU reject such ideas.



Greece has bigger GDP (PPP) per capita than Croatia.

IMF (2015) GDP (PPP) per capita, Int$

44. Greece, 26,449

57. Croatia, 21,581

Greece is in worse shape than Croatia. EU member since 1981, compared to socialist background of other Eastern European countries. It's unlikely comparison, however, average Greek does not live better than Croatian.


And Romania is very close to Croatia.

59. Romania, 20,787

When were you in Romania? Some parts in Romania are more developed than in Croatia.

Romania has lot poorer infrastructure than Croatia. Romanians come to work to Adriatic as cheap workforce. Lately they are making positive progress, but it's a long way to go.


If we speak about debt, yes Greece has large debt, but Croatia has larger debt than Romania and Bulgaria.

Countries by external debt, $ per capita, IMF data

Greece 47,636

Croatia 13,519

Bulgaria 6,261

Romania 4,485

Romania and Bulgaria are in the EU six years longer than Croatia, and they are still less developed. I didn't say Croatia is a sucessful country (especially considering last decade), either.


Greece, Romania and Bulgaria are not secular only in paper, thinking that these countries are not secular is nonsense.

Orthodox Church has been traditionally anti-European (means Western)oriented, with close ties to Moscow.


And Greece is the cradle of democracy.

Switzerland has lot more in common with ancient Greek democRacy than modern Greece.



Yes, Russia has Eurasian union. Russia is completely different story, this country has much bigger territory in Asia than in Europe. Russia never demanded to be EU member, and it is surely Russia will not demand to be EU member.

Turkey and European Union have long relations and negotiations. Turkey application is from 1987. Negotiations started 2005. We will see if Turkey will become EU member. Someone should not have prejudices against Turkey. Every candidate for EU must fulfill standards and requirements, but slow process of Turkish accession to EU is due to non-fullfilment of requirements. From present-day perspective it is possible that Turkey is not ready for EU yet, but maybe it can be changed in future, who knows.

Yes, Russia will never have particular interest in joining the EU for well known reasons, but it is the thread's main question, even though it's competely unrealistic.

Neo-Ottoman Turkey with open Islamist as their president, flooded with terorists and other problems, should have never become member of the EU.

Garrick
03-07-16, 20:52
You're ignoring the fact that most people inside EU reject such ideas.

Mostly nationalists and skeptics don't accept. In post #62 is natural path of integration, experts have long written about it and politicians accepted.

Fully integration is the best for European people, and it offers most opportunities for every individual. Of course, if people in any country don't want their country will be out of that system. But it is small number of countries, because advantages fiscal and political union are much bigger than custom or trade union which is at the lower level of development.


Greece is in worse shape than Croatia. EU member since 1981, compared to socialist background of other Eastern European countries. It's unlikely comparison, however, average Greek does not live better than Croatian.

Romania has lot poorer infrastructure than Croatia. Romanians come to work to Adriatic as cheap workforce. Lately they are making positive progress, but it's a long way to go.

Romania and Bulgaria are in the EU six years longer than Croatia, and they are still less developed. I didn't say Croatia is a sucessful country (especially considering last decade), either.

Statistics is merciless. Croatia is not superior to Greece and Romania, in some ways is better, in some ways is weaker. Croatia was significantly ahead Romania in eighties, and today these two countries are very close.

But essence is that there is no reason to exclude Greece, Romania and Bulgaria out of EU or not to accept Serbia and Montenegro. European Union is not Catholic union, it is union of European countries.


Orthodox Church has been traditionally anti-European (means Western)oriented, with close ties to Moscow.

For many years (during the USSR) Russian Orthodox church had no influence among Orthodox churches. In ecclesiastical matters traditionally Ecumenical Patriarch (Constantinople) has the greatest influence. But those are church issues, few people are interested in this.


Switzerland has lot more in common with ancient Greek democRacy than modern Greece.

Greece is cradle of democracy, and now Greek people are very democratic, more than anyone in Balkans and beyond.


Yes, Russia will never have particular interest in joining the EU for well known reasons, but it is the thread's main question, even though it's competely unrealistic.

Neo-Ottoman Turkey with open Islamist as their president, flooded with terorists and other problems, should have never become member of the EU.

Yes, Russia is clear story, it will never want to be member of EU.

For Turkey situation is different, because Turkey liked to be member of EU, and a lot of Turks wanted accession, but for present day situation I can agree with you, unfortunately Neo-Ottomanism is in agenda these days in Turkey. Maybe situation can be changed.

Miss Marple's nephew
07-07-16, 10:10
Russia has become a hot topic these days due to the events of Crimea. Although these are clearly sad events in our modern history as a continent, one has to account that Russia has played an important role in shaping Europe's history and it is considered a part of it, partially because of land, but also because of its civilization. Therefore I was wondering if Russia will ever become a member or EU in the (probably far) future.

What are your thoughts about that? Would you like Russia in or out?
I don't know if it will ... but it should. We have become saturated with 'culture' from the west. No, I don't mean the west - I mean from the far west, over seas. NATO is an evil entity. Europe must disengage from it and sever its influence. The situation in the Crimea is minor compared to what Europe has had to endure (and crimes we've been duped into committing) by following NATO. Should we look to the east for friendship and cooperation? I think so, probably yes. If I think of Europe and America and Russia as 3 separate plots upon the earth, and then consider the "us" and "them" aspect of modern-day, political/cultural juxtapositioning .... then I believe we are better off cooperating with this new Russian plan. Continuing to tag along with those other people have brought the world nothing but death and destruction.

Petros Houhoulis
28-07-16, 16:51
European Union can function as loose union of soverign nations, with common trade market.

No orthodox country should be allowed in the EU, especially not Russia.

But the EU already has three Orthodox members, Greece, Romania and Bulgaria.

The idea of Russia in the EU is several decades and many reforms ahead of us, probably never.

Petros Houhoulis
28-07-16, 16:58
Federalism suits interest of countries like Germany and France, as it would speedy their economic and political domination in the Union.

No other country wants it, espacially not mass immigration and radicalism that is currently flourisning in heart of the EU.

Fiscal Union was already a mistake. Smaller countries that have kept their fiscal indipendence fared better than members of the Eurozone.

Eu should be nothing more than trade Union, as it was originally designed.






Greece is failure, money leeching country in constant state of near-bankrupcy.

Maybe you should try to survive a week next to Turkey, in order to grasp the magnitude of the problem. If Greece falls, the next defense line shall be at the gates of Vienna...


Romania and Bulgaria are poorest members of the EU, their biggest countribution being export of Gypsy criminals trough out the West. Mind that EU does not benefit them either, as most of their educated population left the country.

Orthodox countries are secular on paper only, it is one of main reasons of their poor socioeconomic development.

Greece is already majority Atheist/Agnostic, in spite of being Orthodox on paper. Corruption correlates with geography, not religion.


Russia is no exception, and already has Eurasian economic Union. They are anti European traditionally, and nobody wants them closer.

In fact Russia is neither "European" nor "anti-European.


I don't see differennce in admitting Russia or Turkey, both should stay out.

Miss Marple's nephew
28-07-16, 17:04
But the EU already has three Orthodox members, Greece, Romania and Bulgaria. ...
Ooooooops.


In fact Russia is neither "European" nor "anti-European.
True.

Petros Houhoulis
28-07-16, 17:05
You're ignoring the fact that most people inside EU reject such ideas.




Greece is in worse shape than Croatia. EU member since 1981, compared to socialist background of other Eastern European countries. It's unlikely comparison, however, average Greek does not live better than Croatian.



Romania has lot poorer infrastructure than Croatia. Romanians come to work to Adriatic as cheap workforce. Lately they are making positive progress, but it's a long way to go.



Romania and Bulgaria are in the EU six years longer than Croatia, and they are still less developed. I didn't say Croatia is a sucessful country (especially considering last decade), either.



Orthodox Church has been traditionally anti-European (means Western)oriented, with close ties to Moscow.

Nope, the Patriarchate of Constantinople is independent of the Patriarchate of Moscow. The close ties between the Orthodox countries have more to do with the fact that nearly all of them have been at some point in history under Islamic rule, and they understand a few more things upon the issue...


Switzerland has lot more in common with ancient Greek democRacy than modern Greece.




Yes, Russia will never have particular interest in joining the EU for well known reasons, but it is the thread's main question, even though it's competely unrealistic.

Neo-Ottoman Turkey with open Islamist as their president, flooded with terorists and other problems, should have never become member of the EU.

LABERIA
28-07-16, 18:23
Russia has become a hot topic these days due to the events of Crimea. Although these are clearly sad events in our modern history as a continent, one has to account that Russia has played an important role in shaping Europe's history and it is considered a part of it, partially because of land, but also because of its civilization. Therefore I was wondering if Russia will ever become a member or EU in the (probably far) future.

What are your thoughts about that? Would you like Russia in or out?

I have read that after the fell of communism it was discussed this probabile membership of Russia in EU. The Russians laughed and answered to the Europeans with a question: What's the point guys, you want to join Russia?

Wheal
20-10-17, 17:38
I don't think most of the people in the US are against any type of Unions, as long as the purpose of the Union isn't to take over the states that have chosen not to join. The biggest problem is similar to what is happening in the state of Illinois. The largest population center (Chicago) is clueless to the lives of the southern half of the state. We drive 25 miles to go to our jobs, and are penalized with high gas prices that have been inflated with state taxes to support the massive road systems in Chicago. Property taxes, which are in part used to support the school systems, are also unequally divided within the state, with Chicago receiving ten times the per capita rate given to downstate schools, and downstate counties have a higher tax rate than Chicago.

So if the union is not equal, we see it as not beneficial.

Farstar
07-12-18, 12:02
My out-of-consensus expectation for this century is Russia will break up in many parts, and some of them will eventually join the EU. Russia will be a clear loser this century.

pinovski
07-12-18, 22:20
Spain will cooperate with Russia against misinformation, an area in which much of the interference detected in Western countries is attributed to Moscow. This is the main agreement reached on Tuesday by the Spanish Foreign Ministers, Josep Borrell, and Russian, Sergey Lavrov, during an official meeting held in Madrid. Borrell has transferred to Lavrov his "concern about spreading false news" regarding Catalonia and the Russian official has responded with an offer to create a joint forum to analyze the problem and try to stop it. Borrell has accepted.


The tension with Russia is appeased. "I am happy that you have launched this proposal to be able to analyze the problem, know what we are talking about and prevent it from being an element of friction," Borrell said in a joint press appearance. Aware that it may be paradoxical to agree with the representative of a country that is considered involved in these practices of manipulation, the minister said: "We have never said it was the Russian Government, but certain information came from Russian media. It's very sensible to speak professionally in this cybersecurity group. " Although Lavrov claims to have proposed similar arrangements for the whole of the European Union, for the moment cooperation will be bilateral between Madrid and Moscow.


MORE INFORMATION
Fake news reappears
Junk news in the United States is shared even more than in 2016
Foreign interference disturbs the Nordic countries
The mere visit of the Russian minister, one of the pillars of the Government of Vladimir Putin, is already representative of the thaw between the two countries. The last official trip of Lavrov took place in March of 2014, in full tension by the crisis of the Ukraine. Although Spain has always advocated maintaining good relations with its main eastern neighbor, the Russian invasion of the Crimean peninsula cut off almost all communication routes between Moscow and the EU, including Spanish ones. The allegations of Russian interference in favor of the Catalan independence speech - in the media and social networks - accentuated the unrest.


At the moment there are no details about when that working group will be constituted, even less about the most delicate element: who will integrate it. Strengthening ties with Russia in an area in which distrust of Moscow reigns is controversial for a country belonging to NATO. It is likely that the National Intelligence Center has something to say. Also the ambassador who appointed the previous PP Government last March to combat hybrid threats and promote cybersecurity, Julia Alicia Olmo and Romero. Beyond the domestic sphere, the Spanish essay can collide with the anti-propaganda exercise that Brussels has been leading since 2015 to combat false news originating in Russia.


Lavrov, who also met with the King, has denied the intrusions of his country, but at the same time has extended his hand to discuss the problem. "There is no evidence of Russian interference in Catalonia, Montenegro or Macedonia, I have talked about this with the Minister, interference in third-country affairs is inadmissible, we have to talk about these concerns not in front of the microphones, but presenting real events. "he has defended.

LeBrok
11-12-18, 04:20
Spain will cooperate with Russia against misinformation, an area in which much of the interference detected in Western countries is attributed to Moscow. This is the main agreement reached on Tuesday by the Spanish Foreign Ministers, Josep Borrell, and Russian, Sergey Lavrov, during an official meeting held in Madrid. Borrell has transferred to Lavrov his "concern about spreading false news" regarding Catalonia and the Russian official has responded with an offer to create a joint forum to analyze the problem and try to stop it. Borrell has accepted.


The tension with Russia is appeased. "I am happy that you have launched this proposal to be able to analyze the problem, know what we are talking about and prevent it from being an element of friction," Borrell said in a joint press appearance. Aware that it may be paradoxical to agree with the representative of a country that is considered involved in these practices of manipulation, the minister said: "We have never said it was the Russian Government, but certain information came from Russian media. It's very sensible to speak professionally in this cybersecurity group. " Although Lavrov claims to have proposed similar arrangements for the whole of the European Union, for the moment cooperation will be bilateral between Madrid and Moscow.


MORE INFORMATION
Fake news reappears
Junk news in the United States is shared even more than in 2016
Foreign interference disturbs the Nordic countries
The mere visit of the Russian minister, one of the pillars of the Government of Vladimir Putin, is already representative of the thaw between the two countries. The last official trip of Lavrov took place in March of 2014, in full tension by the crisis of the Ukraine. Although Spain has always advocated maintaining good relations with its main eastern neighbor, the Russian invasion of the Crimean peninsula cut off almost all communication routes between Moscow and the EU, including Spanish ones. The allegations of Russian interference in favor of the Catalan independence speech - in the media and social networks - accentuated the unrest.


At the moment there are no details about when that working group will be constituted, even less about the most delicate element: who will integrate it. Strengthening ties with Russia in an area in which distrust of Moscow reigns is controversial for a country belonging to NATO. It is likely that the National Intelligence Center has something to say. Also the ambassador who appointed the previous PP Government last March to combat hybrid threats and promote cybersecurity, Julia Alicia Olmo and Romero. Beyond the domestic sphere, the Spanish essay can collide with the anti-propaganda exercise that Brussels has been leading since 2015 to combat false news originating in Russia.


Lavrov, who also met with the King, has denied the intrusions of his country, but at the same time has extended his hand to discuss the problem. "There is no evidence of Russian interference in Catalonia, Montenegro or Macedonia, I have talked about this with the Minister, interference in third-country affairs is inadmissible, we have to talk about these concerns not in front of the microphones, but presenting real events. "he has defended.
Prime example of Russian propagandist at work. Pay attention everyone, this is important message from president Putin.