Romans: the most cruel and most barbaric nation ever existed

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Echetlaeus

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History has shown that these people became masters of the sword, killed and enslaved many people around Europe, Asia and Africa. Their tendency for territory and slavery was superb, for example, from Epirus, the region that I come from, when they defeated the Molossians, they enslaved about 150,000 people. I am sure that there are other numerous cases like that.

Bros, your thoughts are welcome.
 
History has shown that these people became masters of the sword, killed and enslaved many people around Europe, Asia and Africa. Their tendency for territory and slavery was superb, for example, from Epirus, the region that I come from, when they defeated the Molossians, they enslaved about 150,000 people. I am sure that there are other numerous cases like that.

Bros, your thoughts are welcome.

What an 'agent provocateur'...and to think I treated one of your posts seriously. I never learn. :)

The bait is too obvious, BRO.
 
What an 'agent provocateur'...and to think I treated one of your posts seriously. I never learn. :)

The bait is too obvious, BRO.

My beloved Angela,
you hurt my feelings with your statements. Please explain in detail where I am wrong. Maybe my statement is a little bit harsh for some to "swallow", but I expressed an idea that is in other minds as well, ergo I do not think that I should be treated this way by you.

You called me "agent provocateur" for no obvious reason. I find that statement quite offensive and a lady like you should be very cautious when she expresses her thoughts.

Now, to the point history is history and cannot change. I happen to study the old times with much love and, lemme be honest with you, the traces that Romans left in this world are not meant to have come from Paradise. I think that [they] have committed many cruelties during their reign. Nonetheless, I acknowledge some positive effects in the European civilisation.

And Roman woman, remember what your ancestors said: «Delenda est Carthago», for no obvious reason ...
 
My beloved Angela,
you hurt my feelings with your statements. Please explain in detail where I am wrong. Maybe my statement is a little bit harsh for some to "swallow", but I expressed an idea that is in other minds as well, ergo I do not think that I should be treated this way by you.

You called me "agent provocateur" for no obvious reason. I find that statement quite offensive and a lady like you should be very cautious when she expresses her thoughts.

Now, to the point history is history and cannot change. I happen to study the old times with much love and, lemme be honest with you, the traces that Romans left in this world are not meant to have come from Paradise. I think that [they] have committed many cruelties during their reign. Nonetheless, I acknowledge some positive effects in the European civilisation.

And Roman woman, remember what your ancestors said: «Delenda est Carthago», for no obvious reason ...

I remember it as if it were yesterday! :grin:
quote-we-cannot-control-the-evil-tongues-of-others-but-a-good-life-enables-us-to-disregard-them-cato-the-elder-281951.jpg
 
My point exactly. Similarities of Roman expansionism can be found in today's society as well. If your country lives well, that is what matters, although at the expense of others !

P.S. Dear Countess, I am your humble servant, after all I am just a squire. But forgive my impertinence, would it be a difficult task for you to tell me from which part of Italy you come from? North or South?
 
What an 'agent provocateur'...and to think I treated one of your posts seriously. I never learn. :)

The bait is too obvious, BRO.
You got yourself on Angela's ignore list. Why don't you provoke audience by saying, as a Greek, that the Spartans were the most barbaric and cruel? Instead of degrading other ethnicity and possible creating a war with proud Italians, you would have the whole world coming to the thread to defend Spartans on your behave. That would have been devilishly smart.
On other hand I don't expect a proud Greek to criticise Spartans, it would be so unnatural and counter intuitive, almost unhuman.
I have more than a hunch, that it must feel so much better and way more exciting for you to start a conversation from degenerating others.
 
Probably now the whole world will be against me just from the title of this thread. Like you do, like Angela did, like others will do.

It is obvious when people see the tree instead of the whole forest. Sometimes the truth bites, but what can we do, c'est la vie.
I greatly acknowledge however that I am a bit cynical, perhaps a little bit more than the usual.
 
History has shown that these people became masters of the sword, killed and enslaved many people around Europe, Asia and Africa. Their tendency for territory and slavery was superb, for example, from Epirus, the region that I come from, when they defeated the Molossians, they enslaved about 150,000 people. I am sure that there are other numerous cases like that.

Bros, your thoughts are welcome.

My take on the Romans is

They became cruel due to the Punic wars, especially during the third one, where they destroyed all the people , the city and salted the lands. This war gave Rome the idea of Empire, I do not think they thought about Empire before these Punic wars.
So, yes they where one of the cruelest , but made amends with what they built later on in their history.

What would Europe be like in those days if the Romans stopped at tuscany, south-Italy and Sicily............one will never know
 
I have been thinking about this post for quite a long time now. I think that I have made a mistake by choosing this title (both the thread and the poll). Do not blame me bros and broettes. Sometimes it happens to me and I use these kinds of words. And I am quite stubborn to actually say that I am wrong. I do not know why, I really do not know.
 
You got yourself on Angela's ignore list. Why don't you provoke audience by saying, as a Greek, that the Spartans were the most barbaric and cruel? Instead of degrading other ethnicity and possible creating a war with proud Italians, you would have the whole world coming to the thread to defend Spartans on your behave. That would have been devilishly smart.
On other hand I don't expect a proud Greek to criticise Spartans, it would be so unnatural and counter intuitive, almost unhuman.
I have more than a hunch, that it must feel so much better and way more exciting for you to start a conversation from degenerating others.

He isn't on the list quite yet, mainly because he's amusing, and I don't think he's totally serious, although I may be giving him far more credit than he deserves. :)

I found the reference to Cato the Elder particularly amusing...when my future husband and I were courting, he was in a Classics phase, studying Latin and the history of the Empire, and he, having a more martial nature than I ever had, was quite an admirer of Cato, while I was not, finding him a tendentious rather obsessive bore. My 'ragazzo' also had a bit of a tendency to rant on political topics, and to obsess, although he had the grace to recognize it. Often, after getting lost in his oratory, he would pause and finish with "And Carthage Must Be Destroyed!", or I would say it, to tease him. I guess you had to be there, and a bit of a nerd, to get the humor.:grin:

Seriously, I think I have a pretty balanced view of the Romans and all their doings, and of Renaissance Italians, and twentieth century Italians as well, for that matter. (although of course I would say that) There's a lot to be proud of, in my opinion, as well as much to regret, as with all countries or ancient empires. All flawed...all fallen, to use a term with which you might be familiar.

Also, whatever criticisms I level, at whatever group, I try to remember the context and the era.

@Echetlaeus
I'm the descendent of Ligures, and the Neolithic peoples who preceded them, and the Roman colonists from Luni, and some first century B.C. Gallic tribes, and perhaps a few Greeks from Luni or who wandered down the coast from Marseilles, and perhaps a few Lombards, given the number of Lombard castles in my native valley, and a stray Byzantine as well. Oh, and my favorites, the Etruscans, although they were on the periphery.

That's a long winded way of saying that so far as I can tell, all my ancestors back to the mid 1500s, and on some lines back to the 1400s, came from within the region that is sometimes called Lunezia. (and immediately adjoining areas) Let me be clear that Lunezia doesn't exist as an administrative unit, nor, in my opinion, will it, or should it.

190840789-27f11ed0-e7fe-49d5-920b-38ab0819a586.jpg
 
He isn't on the list quite yet, mainly because he's amusing, and I don't think he's totally serious, although I may be giving him far more credit than he deserves. :)

I found the reference to Cato the Elder particularly amusing...when my future husband and I were courting, he was in a Classics phase, studying Latin and the history of the Empire, and he, having a more martial nature than I ever had, was quite an admirer of Cato, while I was not, finding him a tendentious rather obsessive bore. My 'ragazzo' also had a bit of a tendency to rant on political topics, and to obsess, although he had the grace to recognize it. Often, after getting lost in his oratory, he would pause and finish with "And Carthage Must Be Destroyed!", or I would say it, to tease him. I guess you had to be there, and a bit of a nerd, to get the humor.:grin:

Seriously, I think I have a pretty balanced view of the Romans and all their doings, and of Renaissance Italians, and twentieth century Italians as well, for that matter. (although of course I would say that) There's a lot to be proud of, in my opinion, as well as much to regret, as with all countries or ancient empires. All flawed...all fallen, to use a term with which you might be familiar.

Also, whatever criticisms I level, at whatever group, I try to remember the context and the era.

@Echetlaeus
I'm the descendent of Ligures, and the Neolithic peoples who preceded them, and the Roman colonists from Luni, and some first century B.C. Gallic tribes, and perhaps a few Greeks from Luni or who wandered down the coast from Marseilles, and perhaps a few Lombards, given the number of Lombard castles in my native valley, and a stray Byzantine as well.

That's a long winded way of saying that so far as I can tell, all my ancestors back to the mid 1500s, and on some lines back to the 1400s, came from within the region that is sometimes called Lunezia. (and immediately adjoining areas) Let me be clear that Lunezia doesn't exist as an administrative unit, nor, in my opinion, will it, or should it.

190840789-27f11ed0-e7fe-49d5-920b-38ab0819a586.jpg

Thanks for finding the courage to answer me noble Angela given what I said.
I beg you a pardon ma'am. I think this is due to impulsivity of youth :p
 
Thanks for finding the courage to answer me noble Angela given what I said.
I beg you a pardon ma'am. I think this is due to impulsivity of youth :p
Bucket of cold water, that's what we serve to the youth.:grin:
 
He isn't on the list quite yet, mainly because he's amusing, and I don't think he's totally serious, although I may be giving him far more credit than he deserves. :)

I found the reference to Cato the Elder particularly amusing...when my future husband and I were courting, he was in a Classics phase, studying Latin and the history of the Empire, and he, having a more martial nature than I ever had, was quite an admirer of Cato, while I was not, finding him a tendentious rather obsessive bore. My 'ragazzo' also had a bit of a tendency to rant on political topics, and to obsess, although he had the grace to recognize it. Often, after getting lost in his oratory, he would pause and finish with "And Carthage Must Be Destroyed!", or I would say it, to tease him. I guess you had to be there, and a bit of a nerd, to get the humor.:grin:
Definitely my type of humor. :grin:
 
The Romans were calculatively cruel, meaning they were punitive the most with the people that could beat them or had beaten them. An example would be with Carthage, another example would be with Illyrians and Macedonians. Their strategy was to permanently take the big players out of the game and not put much effort in the small ones. Kind of like Italy in the World Cup :). That's why the Germanic barbarians were a nightmare for Rome; they had no permanent settlement that you could wipe out; they lived in woods and villages far away that could be easily abandoned or rebuild; and they were moody, unpredictable, and "disorganized", raiding Rome whenever they felt like it.
 
Attila, the savior of Europe :D
 
No, I find it hard to pinpoint any one nation or civilization as the most cruel or barbaric. Every nation has skeletons in their closet and even if we tried to dig through history and try to tally deaths caused by each and every nation I don't think it would solve anything.
 
My take on the Romans is

They became cruel due to the Punic wars, especially during the third one, where they destroyed all the people , the city and salted the lands. This war gave Rome the idea of Empire, I do not think they thought about Empire before these Punic wars.
So, yes they where one of the cruelest , but made amends with what they built later on in their history.

What would Europe be like in those days if the Romans stopped at tuscany, south-Italy and Sicily............one will never know

A few points here about the Roman Empire.

Western Europe was already well on the way to a "high civilisation" before the Roman expansion. Greeks and Phoenicians together with local Iberian elements had set up an advanced civilisation along the south and east coasts of what is now Spain.

The Greek city states of Marseilles (Massilia) and Nice (Nicaea) had spread Mediterranean trade and civilisation into the very heart of Gaul.

From the time of the Emperor Trajan (ruler from 98 to 117), himself of Spanish origin, most Roman Emperors were no longer Italian, but Spanish, or from the Balkans and occasionally North Africa (eg Septimius Severus).

From the time of Hadrian (117 to 138) most legionaries were from outside Italy and only the Praetorians remained mainly Italian.
 
The Romans were calculatively cruel, meaning they were punitive the most with the people that could beat them or had beaten them. An example would be with Carthage, another example would be with Illyrians and Macedonians. Their strategy was to permanently take the big players out of the game and not put much effort in the small ones. Kind of like Italy in the World Cup :). That's why the Germanic barbarians were a nightmare for Rome; they had no permanent settlement that you could wipe out; they lived in woods and villages far away that could be easily abandoned or rebuild; and they were moody, unpredictable, and "disorganized", raiding Rome whenever they felt like it.


Another example is Judea...they used a relatively light hand in the beginning, even trying to accommodate the 'to them' peculiar religion of the natives, but a large scale rebellion that could have spread to other regions? They wound up scattering most of the Jews all over the world, and eventually took the temple down stone by stone.

As for Carthage....
After they killed or enslaved or scattered all the inhabitants, they razed it to the ground and then sowed the land with salt so that it couldn't be rebuilt...a pretty thorough job.

They did much the same in my area. The Ligures stood in the way of a coastal route to Gaul. My ancestors also made the serious mistake of serving as mercenaries for Hamilcar. Although the campaigns were difficult, precisely as you say because the "natives" could employ hit and run tactics and hide in the mountains, they were eventually "pacified". The Roman accounts say the area was ethnically cleansed, and all the Apuani, at least, were transported to Samnium.

Although I'm sure many were, I think that's probably an exaggeration. Lots of places to hide in those mountains and hidden valleys and nothing very attractive there for the Romans. They stuck to the coast.

As to my collateral ancestors who may have wound up in Samnium, I've sometimes wondered if they are responsible for the relatively unusual (for southerners) phenotype that sometimes appears in inland Campania. Although perhaps not...Italian geneticists tried to find traces of the R1b clades common in Liguria in that area, and weren't successful. Then, on the other hand, we have no ancient DNA for the Ligures, so we don't really know their yDNA signature for certain.
 
My ancestors also made the serious mistake of serving as mercenaries for Hamilcar.

Angela,
are you talking about when the Ligourians united with Hamilcar in the Battle of Himera against the noble Greeks of Magna Graecia?

P.S.1 Point out the use of the adjective noble:grin:
P.S.2 See how the Greeks treated the Carthaginians after the battle, that is, with no total annihilation.
P.S.3 Another evidence of Roman cruelty and I am about to vote "Yes".
 
The Romans later rebuilt Carthage which became again one of the great cities of North Africa.
 
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