PDA

View Full Version : Parthenon marbles: should they come back?



Echetlaeus
02-04-14, 00:22
What do you believe? Should the Parthenon Marbles return to the country that created them?

Aberdeen
02-04-14, 03:57
Or should the Marbles stay in the country that saved them from the prospect of probable destruction or damage? I can see both sides of the argument.

Echetlaeus
02-04-14, 04:01
Or should the Marbles stay in the country that saved them from almost certain destruction? I can see both sides of the argument.

We are not under Ottomans now. What has been stolen, must be returned! After all the Brits have Stonehenge.

Aberdeen
02-04-14, 04:04
Okay, I edited my original comment because it was a deliberate exaggeration. But since the Turks had owned the Marbles for centuries, they did have a right to sell them or give them away. And nobody has proven that Lord Elgin didn't have permission to take them. It's unlikely he could have removed the Marbles if he didn't have permission from the Turks, who were the owners at the time.

Echetlaeus
02-04-14, 04:11
Okay, I edited my original comment because it was a deliberate exaggeration. But since the Turks had owned the Marbles for centuries, they did have a right to sell them or give them away. And nobody has proven that Lord Elgin didn't have permission to take them. It's unlikely he could have removed the Marbles if he didn't have permission from the Turks, who were the owners at the time.

Even if he purchased them rightfully from the Ottomans, again it does not mean anything. It is ethically a theft, for the real owners would never sell them. It is like you ask the Germans during the occupation to sell you the Acropolis along with the sacred rock ...

Aberdeen
02-04-14, 04:19
Even if he purchased them rightfully from the Ottomans, again it does not mean anything. It is ethically a theft, for the real owners would never sell them. It is like you ask the Germans during the occupation to sell you the Acropolis along with the sacred rock ...

So, would you say that the current government of Greece has no title to Paleolithic artifacts found in Greece? After all, the people who made them probably weren't ancestral to the modern Greeks.

Echetlaeus
02-04-14, 04:26
So, would you say that the current government of Greece has no title to Paleolithic artifacts found in Greece? After all, the people who made them probably weren't ancestral to the modern Greeks.

Proof or it did not happen!
You are trying to be smart here, but :thinking:

And the paleolithic stuff belong to the place that they were found :cool-v:

LeBrok
02-04-14, 04:34
It should be sent to Nashville where a proper Parthenon stands in it's top glory.

http://www.nashville.gov/portals/0/SiteContent/Parks/images/parthenon/Parthenon-Dusk.jpg

And where Athina feels at home:
http://gomanana.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/statue-of-athena-in-the-parthenonthe-conservancy---parthenon-information-a2znizph.jpg





I think Greeks should rebuild whole Acropolis to show first that they care about their heritage.

Echetlaeus
02-04-14, 04:36
It should be sent to Nashville where a proper Parthenon stands in it's top glory.

http://www.nashville.gov/portals/0/SiteContent/Parks/images/parthenon/Parthenon-Dusk.jpg

And where Athina feels at home:
http://gomanana.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/statue-of-athena-in-the-parthenonthe-conservancy---parthenon-information-a2znizph.jpg





I think Greeks should rebuild whole Acropolis to show first that they care about their heritage.

Indeed, very beautiful, but fake. I am really impressed by this kind of statement from someone who is in a History forum. I asked myself, what the heck is this guy talking about? Is he for real? Then I realised that you say that just to piss me off, but of course these kind of statements do not touch me.

There is a point trying to preserve it for it reminds us who we are. It is a piece of history. BTW Athena likes to live in the sacred land where she was born one day from Zeus' head.

Cheers !

P.S. By the way reveal your ethnicity like everyone else here. Then I may understand better with whom I talk and the intentions behind your sayings? Is that OK with you brah?

Echetlaeus
02-04-14, 04:37
By the way, why so many Canadians in here and generally outsiders?
Where are the real Eurobros?

I am sure that the real Eurobros will support me. Canadians are very tightly related to the Brits, and of course, like them, they try to be nice to everyone else, except in the case when their direct interests are at stake. What a race these Brits are! They tell you one thing and they mean whatever ...

LeBrok
02-04-14, 05:19
Indeed, very beautiful, but fake.
Fake but still so real and beautiful. Where is your original one? Oh right, your Christian forefathers closed this pagan temple and moved Athena to Constantinople and ... lost it. Nice.
In this case isn't the fake one better than none? You should be a little bit happy, no?

What if I'm Turk or Albanian? Do you have a reason to hate me more now?

Echetlaeus
02-04-14, 05:26
Fake but still so real and beautiful. Where is your original one? Oh right, your Christian forefathers closed this pagan temple and moved Athena to Constantinople and ... lost it. Nice.
In this case isn't the fake one better than none? You should be a little bit happy, no?

What if I'm Turk or Albanian? Do you have a reason to hate me more now?

C'mon, with that logic let the Brits have copies, they can make them brand new after all. You a little bit irrational here, don't you think?

Why do you talk about Christian forefathers? When the Roman Empire changed the original religion, this was the end Hellenism. Everything Greek was pagan for them. And yes, they destroyed everything !
Now, as far as your ethnicity is concerned, well I want to see if you have sources of bias in your blood. Is that inappropriate? I have revealed my ethnicity already!
From your statements so far I may think the same way, that is, should you be Turkish or Albanian will mean that you will have higher probability to attack me.

FBS
02-04-14, 11:15
When the Roman Empire changed the original religion, this was the end Hellenism. Everything Greek was pagan for them. And yes, they destroyed everything !

Yeah, blame it on the Romans. I bet the Persian feel the same love towards the Greeks and Alexander (not so) Great.

Echetlaeus
02-04-14, 15:12
Yeah, blame it on the Romans. I bet the Persian feel the same love towards the Greeks and Alexander (not so) Great.

OP disapproves your statement. And perhaps you should try to answer the question of this thread.

FBS
02-04-14, 15:23
OP disapproves your statement.
? who/what disapproves my statement? By "statement" you meant my opinion, right?

Echetlaeus
02-04-14, 15:32
? who/what disapproves my statement? By "statement" you meant my opinion, right?

What is your opinion about the Parthenon Marbles Sir?
This is the question of this thread!

FBS
02-04-14, 15:57
What is your opinion about the Parthenon Marbles Sir?
This is the question of this thread!
Ups, sorry for not following your orders SIR! I have expressed my opinion, maybe not the way you liked it, but that's how these forums are... Hope that you will get more than your own opinion in your OP. Good luck with it. Over and out.

Aberdeen
02-04-14, 16:00
Yeah, blame it on the Romans. I bet the Persian feel the same love towards the Greeks and Alexander (not so) Great.

Yes, that's the example I should have used (although I still think my reference to Paleolithic artifacts was valid).

Greece must return to Iran everything that Al the Great looted from Ecbatana or no return of the Elgin Marbles.

Echetlaeus
02-04-14, 16:02
Ups, sorry for not following your orders SIR! I have expressed my opinion, maybe not the way you liked it, but that's how these forums are... Hope that you will get more than your own opinion in your OP. Good luck with it. Over and out.

Bro, OP = Original Poster
You have not said specifically what you mean, are you in favour of return or you are against? Is that so difficult to say in a clean and direct, laconic may I add, way?

Echetlaeus
02-04-14, 16:04
Yes, that's the example I should have used (although I still think my reference to Paleolithic artifacts was valid).

Greece must return to Iran everything that Al the Great looted from Ecbatana or no return of the Elgin Marbles.

I agree with that ! If we have something that does not belong to us, it must be returned if asked officially by Persia.

Then, we ask officially to get ANY artifact that was taken from our country from all museums around the world. The same must be done by Egypt and all the other ancient civilisations. Then you, living in the New World, or pro-barbaric countries, can show your own artifacts, or at least what you have.

Over and out, I hope you feel right now!

Aberdeen
02-04-14, 16:08
By the way, why so many Canadians in here and generally outsiders?
Where are the real Eurobros?

I am sure that the real Eurobros will support me. Canadians are very tightly related to the Brits, and of course, like them, they try to be nice to everyone else, except in the case when their direct interests are at stake. What a race these Brits are! They tell you one thing and they mean whatever ...

Why are there so many Americans on this forum, flying a false flag about what country they live in? Europeans living in Canada and Canadian citizens born elsewhere aren't ashamed to tell the world that they live in Canada. So, what's up with some of you Americans?

The majority of Canadians on here seem to be immigrants from Europe. And, while I can only speculate as to the reason they come here, it might have something to do with missing Europe. Or maybe living in a country other than the country of their origin makes them more likely to be interested in things like genetics and history. But I don't really know - I'm sure we all have our own stories. And, actually, only about 40% of the Canadian population is of British descent. A lot are of Irish, French or German descent, and there are people here whose ancestors came from every corner of the world, not to mention the Native population.

In my case, I'm mostly of British descent but from a family that's been in Canada for many generations, and I don't particularly identify with the Brits. I generally like Scottish people but don't feel any nationalistic affinity with them, and I've found a lot of English people to be rather abnoxious, to be honest.

What does any of this have to do with the Elgin Marbles?

Echetlaeus
02-04-14, 16:13
Why are there so many Americans on this forum, flying a false flag about what country they live in? Europeans living in Canada and Canadian citizens born elsewhere aren't ashamed to tell the world that they live in Canada. So, what's up with some of you Americans?

The majority of Canadians on here seem to be immigrants from Europe. And, while I can only speculate as to the reason they come here, it might have something to do with missing Europe. Or maybe living in a country other than the country of their origin makes them more likely to be interested in things like genetics and history. But I don't really know - I'm sure we all have our own stories. And, actually, only about 40% of the Canadian population is of British descent. A lot are of Irish, French or German descent, and there are people here whose ancestors came from every corner of the world, not to mention the Native population.

In my case, I'm mostly of British descent but from a family that's been in Canada for many generations, and I don't particularly identify with the Brits. I generally like Scottish people but don't feel any nationalistic affinity with them, and I've found a lot of English people to be rather abnoxious, to be honest.

What does any of this have to do with the Elgin Marbles?

What false flag, I am studying in the USA, but I am from Greece. Is that so difficult to understand?
As a Brit you are biased!

hope
02-04-14, 16:38
It should be sent to Nashville where a proper Parthenon stands in it's top glory.

http://www.nashville.gov/portals/0/SiteContent/Parks/images/parthenon/Parthenon-Dusk.jpg

And where Athina feels at home:
http://gomanana.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/statue-of-athena-in-the-parthenonthe-conservancy---parthenon-information-a2znizph.jpg





I think Greeks should rebuild whole Acropolis to show first that they care about their heritage.
Or at least learn to properly take care of those they still have!
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/feb/26/greece-acropolis-debt-crisis-athens

LeBrok
02-04-14, 17:56
Or at least learn to properly take care of those they still have!
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/feb/26/greece-acropolis-debt-crisis-athens

Exactly. I'm afraid that, due to financial problems and lack of funds for heritage and museums, Greeks will receive the marbles and put it in storage.

About rebuilding versus taking care of ruins. I think some of the greatest monuments should be restored to their former glory. We have so much more joy and interest when looking at all the details and beauty of finished "product" than to look only at some remaining foundations of ancient buildings or cities. Even if half of it will be considered fake, when rebuilt, it still can carry a better educational and esthetic value to the population.

Do we consider Louvre or Versailles fake? Surely it is not all original anymore. I'm sure the original roof, or roof covering was replaced. I'm sure there were fires that destroyed parts of the palace, and it wasn't rebuilt exactly same way. Some walls were repainted or restuccoed few times. Electrical, plumbing and heating was added. Etc, etc.

So what would be a crime to rebuild coliseum for example. Even better, lets rebuild it and introduce gladiator shows for tourists there. Fake fights as american wrestling, lol, but I'm sure tourists would leave twice the money for the grand experience. Eat some roman treats (ala popcorn) and drink Roman beer, well at least try, lol. Dress in toga of senators, judge with your thumbs, and have a picture with fake cezar. At least I would pay so much more than going to see only ruins.

Echetlaeus
02-04-14, 18:21
I understand that we have financial problems. However this by no means make you the owners of the marbles. Per your statements above (Canadian guy and English woman), if you want to have something finished and admire its looks, just take the blueprint and make your own. We want these Marbles back because they belong to our heritage.

Why don't you destroy the Stonehenge and create a new one in its position? Also, how about giving us the Stonehenge? Then I will say that we are equal.

ΠΑΝΑΞ
02-04-14, 19:09
(?) Is it possible please for someone to call the police! We also pleased for a doctor or a veterin-"aryan;". (dont hurry! take your time! we are here, waiting...for centuries.)

Echetlaeus
02-04-14, 20:58
The Brits have committed hubris.. Soon the nemesis will come due to the anathema that was made in the first place.
And you may not like today's Parthenon so much because the Thief Lord Elgin, had his men cut the Marbles using tremendous brutality ...

"Blind are the eyes that do not shed tears while seeing, O, Greece beloved, your sacred objects plundered by profane English hands that have again wounded your aching bosom and snatched your gods, gods that hate England's abominable north climate."
--- Lord Byron ---

Angela
02-04-14, 21:23
Things are getting a little overwrought, me thinks.

I have some sympathy for the Greeks in this matter, but mainly because the appropriation or mis-appropriation of the Marbles took place within a relatively recent time frame.

I think there's a loosely analogous situation in what took place during World War II. The Nazis looted massive amounts of art and artifacts from museums and individuals alike. After passing through various hands, some of these pieces wound up in other museums. The descendents of the original owners have successfully brought suit for their return. Provenance matters in the art world. It's a question of buyer beware. You are supposed to do due diligence in order to discover if the seller has undisputed title to the object in question, much as is the case when you buy a house, for example.

However, I take and agree with Aberdeen's point that there has to be some sort of time limit. Just to use another example, should Venice return its lions to Constantinople? Aside from the fact that in this particular case the Byzantine Empire no longer exists, and this would mean a return to the conquerors of Byzantium, which could hardly be considered appropriate, this kind of thing, if extended to all art works removed by one conquering empire or another back to the dawn of history, would create mass chaos. I think some things just have to be accepted as a done deal.

Interesting the discussion about "re-doing" the ancient wonders or places. I was in Las Vegas a few years ago, and was in both the Bellagio and the Venetian. They're certainly beautiful, and in more pristine condition than the originals, but they're not REAL. Aside from everything else, it would cost the earth, literally, to create them using the actual materials. It's just plastic a lot of it, and you can TELL. Over and beyond that, it's the patina of age that makes some of these things and places so beautiful, and it's knowing that you're walking in the footsteps of the ancients that is so awe-inspiring. So, for those who won't be able to see the real thing, or even as a way of opening up a portal into the past for all of us (I think if someone recreated Pompeii, they could make a fortune, for example) it's fine, but leave the originals alone, please.

It's sort of the same way I feel about plastic surgery I suppose. I wouldn't want a beloved face, careworn perhaps, with some wrinkles and greying hair (or balding), cut and stitched and hair plugged in order to get some facsimile of the beauty it had in its youth. It's beautiful now, just beautiful in a different way. Of course, I know I'm probably in a minority in this one. :)

Aberdeen
02-04-14, 21:35
You make some good points, Angela. However, I have a bit more sympathy for the Greeks than I admitted to OP, and it's partly because I think location matters a lot when it comes to appreciating ancient artifacts. The plastic nature of what Vegas has produced no doubt detracts from one's ability to appreciate it, but I think if a person was able to dump some ancient monument somewhere on the Vegas strip, it would probably still look tacky, just because of the context. My main reason for not wanting to see the Marbles returned, and it's more important to me even than the time argument, is because I don't think Greece would be able to properly take care of the Marbles if they were returned. Not now, and there have been a lot of other periods of instability in Greece during the modern period. If a Greek person really wants to see the Marbles, I think they won't be able to appreciate them in the same way by going to the British Museum as they would if they could look at the Marbles as properly restored and protected artifacts in their original location in Greece. BUT that ain't gonna happen - if Greece gets the Marbles back any time soon, they'll probably either be dumped into storage or secretly and illegally sold to some Russian oligarch who wants them to furnish his new mansion. They're better off in the British Museum, IMO.

Gracchus
02-04-14, 23:27
In my opinion, the Parthenon Marbles should be returned to Greece.
I think its a good idea that British Museum return many other "items" to many countries.
always thinking that these countries are able to keep them.

Echetlaeus
02-04-14, 23:40
OP approves the statement of Angela and Gracchus.
No wonder they are Southern bros like me :grin:

P.S. There is a spelling mistake in the poll, can the mod fix that, please?