PDA

View Full Version : Yet another classification request ...



Echetlaeus
14-04-14, 01:31
Please classify this woman!

6374

LeBrok
14-04-14, 02:22
Pretty, young, looks smart.

Engel
14-04-14, 05:49
Difficult one. My Guess Russian/ Slavic

Angela
14-04-14, 20:14
She could definitely pass as Italian. How long before I can say who she is?

Echetlaeus
14-04-14, 23:32
She could definitely pass as Italian. How long before I can say who she is?

Do not say yet. Let us see what the rest of the forum members have in mind.

ebAmerican
15-04-14, 01:23
I would guess a mix of Central European and Balkan decent. The black hair is throwing me off, but her face looks Central European. I'm horrible at phenotypes, who is she?

julia90
17-04-14, 01:40
I think she looks south-eastern european before central european.
i would guess anything between italian and greek, bulgarian.

althought she could be Also slovenian? Or austrian?

julia90
17-04-14, 01:41
Regarding her haircolor; looking at her eyebrow she's at least natural dark-brown. Altought heir Hair are dyed to make them more shiny and healthy

Echetlaeus
17-04-14, 02:31
I want Angela to answer the question of who she is. After all she seems to know her. Then I will say if her guess is right or wrong.

Angela
17-04-14, 05:03
Looked like Luciana Berger, British Labor MP of Ashkenazi descent to me.

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/Pictures/web/l/m/h/LUCIANA_BERGER__300.jpg

Echetlaeus
17-04-14, 14:58
She is Olga Kefalogianni, the Greek Minister of Tourism. She is from Crete.

Angela
17-04-14, 16:43
She still could pass in Italy. She could pass as Ashkenazi as well, although not as much when seen full face and you can see her eyes and nose properly.
http://www.myself.gr/sites/default/files/styles/homepage_home_carousel/public/field/image/olga-kefalogianni-i-moni-gunaika-tou-neou-kubernitikou-shimatos.jpg

@Julia
She needn't be coloring her hair, although she might be, particularly if she's greying early. Chestnut hair often winds up looking darker in that case. However, you can have the shine naturally if you're young enough, or through a good keratin treatment if you're not... :grin:

It's not all that rare a combination of pigmentation traits...

Another picture of Luciana Berger...http://www.birmingham.ac.uk/Images/Alumni/outstandingalumni/Luciana-Berger.jpg


A woman from northwest Italy...6376

Echetlaeus
17-04-14, 18:37
Angela,
how do you classify the Ashkenazi?

To me they are just Europeans with the Hebrew faith. Correct me if I am wrong, but they seem totally different from the original Semitic race. What do the genes say though from a scientific point of view?

Angela
18-04-14, 02:07
In terms of phenotype, the Ashkenazim were discussed here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29154-Can-you-guess-and-classify-this-man?highlight=Ashkenazi

As I said there, because the Ashkenazim are such a bottlenecked, inbred population (stemming from the *very* small group that survived the massacres in the Rhineland at the time of the Crusades)...
1) There are a few specific looks that I would classify as particularly "Ashkenazi" looking..
2) However, people who have those specific looks need not actually be Ashkenazim.
3) Also, not all Ashkenazim have those supposedly "typical" looks; many of them just look southern European, some might look more Near Eastern, and a few might even look central or eastern European, although more rarely unless they are admixed.

In terms of genetics, there are dozens of studies. If you do a search at 23andme, you'll find quite a few threads about it where very knowledgeable Ashkenazim, among others, discuss those studies.

It's been a while since I've discussed it, but I think, after weighing all the studies, I would say that autosomally their sojourn in Europe has resulted in a few percentage points of ancestry from Central Europe, and an even smaller slice from eastern Europe, and then the remainder is some combination of northern Near Eastern ancestry combined with southern European ancestry of the Greco-Roman variety, in varying proportions in different groups of Ashkenazim. Whether that was picked up in the eastern Mediterranean during the Classical era or later in Italy, I don't know, and I don't think anyone else does for certain either. I also don't think anyone knows the specific percentage breakdown of Greco-Roman versus Near Eastern ancestry, although I've seen "guesstimates" of anywhere from 20-40% Greco-Roman ancestry. In terms of that Greco-Roman ancestry, some people theorize that it was actually picked up in Italy, mainly through inter-marriage with Italian women, before most of the community moved to the Rhineland, but again, there's no incontrovertible evidence, in my opinion.

I still think this graphic is pretty accurate even though it's a few years old. Just click on it to enlarge it.
6377

MOESAN
18-04-14, 14:54
I could "bark with the wolves" knowing her origin, but sorry, I don't agree with a "mediterranean" look:
she looks very more on the "primitive european" model, with jaw prognathy, a nose with can be seen among western and eastern Europeans of old stock, sometimes among Celts, sometimes among Finns and N-Slavs: a pre-neolithic nose, if I can say like that (because some of the earlier neolitihical people could have some crossings with some people like that, or kept some ancestral traits, exceptionally - I would say a "mesolithical nose" and something 'cromagnoid' too (a taste on bones)
+ I don't find any ressemblance with Luciana BERGER neither for nose nor for jaw (Luciana BERGER has a narrower jaw compared to her global face)-
I don'r refer to her head hair color because I never do that concerning women! and it is not the more important when classifying -
in short: some traits of a pre-agricultural population remnants in Mediterranea, before the diverse southeastern people waves...
my analysis is free!!! (LOL)

julia90
18-04-14, 17:38
Her hair are obviously died, to make them a more beautiful color. They are dyed a shade darker plus brillantine-dying.

Sue looks south eastern european.

Angela
18-04-14, 18:57
I could "bark with the wolves" knowing her origin, but sorry, I don't agree with a "mediterranean" look:
she looks very more on the "primitive european" model, with jaw prognathy, a nose with can be seen among western and eastern Europeans of old stock, sometimes among Celts, sometimes among Finns and N-Slavs: a pre-neolithic nose, if I can say like that (because some of the earlier neolitihical people could have some crossings with some people like that, or kept some ancestral traits, exceptionally - I would say a "mesolithical nose" and something 'cromagnoid' too (a taste on bones)
+ I don't find any ressemblance with Luciana BERGER neither for nose nor for jaw (Luciana BERGER has a narrower jaw compared to her global face)-
I don'r refer to her head hair color because I never do that concerning women! and it is not the more important when classifying -
in short: some traits of a pre-agricultural population remnants in Mediterranea, before the diverse southeastern people waves...
my analysis is free!!! (LOL)

Well, I did say my opinion changed when I saw her full face, but as I've also said, I have a long way to go with this classification business. :smile:

Also, whatever the origins of her particular traits, she still looks southern European to me.

@Julia
Whatever the case may be for this particular woman, I assure you that very dark brown hair can occur in nature with very fair skin.

Echetlaeus
19-04-14, 02:47
^ Angela, is that you?

Angela
19-04-14, 03:18
She's someone I know very well.

Echetlaeus
19-04-14, 04:18
Maria, Marianna, Magdalena or something like that I suppose. Maybe Maria, as the song about the "Pure Italian" says. It must be very common in Italy.
Perhaps your mother ...

Angela
19-04-14, 05:24
Are you having us all on, Echetlaeus? Me thinks perhaps instead of a Leonidas, we have a Caesar here. Perhaps a Caesar looking for new lands to conquer after an exile?

Syntax and "voice" when writing, when you have an "ear" for it, can be as distinctive as a fingerprint.

Echetlaeus
19-04-14, 06:33
Have I told you that my favourite fictional character is Sherlock?

Echetlaeus
19-04-14, 06:43
The syntax of the Southern Europeans is very similar (other Italians that I know told me that).
The photo which you uploaded has the initials MB, ergo I made an educated guess.
I understand that you speak metaphorically, but can you explain what do you mean by "voice" ?

P.S. Why do you use improper grammar sometimes? I believe it may indicate a feeling of suspicion on your behalf about the writer of the statement, e.g., when you put your hand in your jaw and think, while moving your head, "wtf is he talking about now ! "
I mean no disrespect, I am just explaining something in a plain and direct way so I can make myself clear. And perhaps I want to understand your character deeply, as Carl Young would put it.

Angela
19-04-14, 16:40
The syntax of the Southern Europeans is very similar (other Italians that I know told me that).
The photo which you uploaded has the initials MB, ergo I made an educated guess.
I understand that you speak metaphorically, but can you explain what do you mean by "voice" ?

P.S. Why do you use improper grammar sometimes? I believe it may indicate a feeling of suspicion on your behalf about the writer of the statement, e.g., when you put your hand in your jaw and think, while moving your head, "wtf is he talking about now ! "
I mean no disrespect, I am just explaining something in a plain and direct way so I can make myself clear. And perhaps I want to understand your character deeply, as Carl Young would put it.

You mean like this? :laughing: Very clever, Echetlaeus.http://quitecontinental.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/of1.jpg


It's Carl Jung, by the way.

I fear you're too "young" to understand my character deeply. Perhaps there is also a certain lack of "gravitas"? No offense meant, of course. :grin: Also, I've never cared to have anyone understand me too well. It spoils all the mystery for one thing, and for another I'm, yes, far too suspicious of other people to normally allow them that much access. These internet exchanges are actually fun precisely because it's a safer environment in which to reveal more of oneself, don't you think? So long as everything stays within reason and decorum, of course.

And now to return the conversation to more seemly matters.

"Voice" can mean several different things in terms of written communication. It can mean "point of view", as in the book is written from the point of view of the main character, or the point of view or "voice" is that of an omniscient narrator. That's a literary use.

It can also mean "active voice" or "passive voice" in writing. In English one can write that "Caesar was stabbed by Brutus.", or one can write that "Brutus stabbed Caesar." My natural inclination is to write in the passive voice, and I have to actively work against it.

It can also mean, and this is the sense in which I used it, the unique style of the author of a particular piece. After all, written language is just transcribed speech. This wouldn't be revealed in a business plan or a legal brief, for example, but it would be revealed in more personal communications. Speaking of "Sherlock", analyzing the "voice" of a writer is often of great help in the kind of detective work that goes on in the criminal justice system, and it can also be of great help in business negotiations for the added insight it provides into the minds of the other parties.

As to my grammar, I've made my living to a certain extent based on my facility with the English language, so it's rather disconcerting that you find it incorrect. I wonder, frankly, that a Greek who learned English relatively late in life, I assume, feels so qualified to judge, but regardless, I'll answer the question. Sometimes, it's because I'm in a hurry, but often it's done quite deliberately for effect, especially when using text or writing on the internet, so as to convey, when facial expression and even tone of "actual voice" is not available, nuance and "color". I also speak, and therefore write, in these settings, very colloquially. So yes, I know you're not technically supposed to start a sentence with "and". :smile:I'm "transcribing" speech as it actually occurs here, and also doing it stylistically, for effect. For example, I tend to use commas in this kind of setting to express intonation.

Another thing occurs to me. When people learn a language that is not their native one, and they learn it after a certain age, or in their native country, there is sometimes a tendency to speak and write in a rather stilted and formulaic way, even in casual settings. Henry Kissinger strikes me that way. His English is always totally, teutonically correct in terms of grammar, but even when heard in more casual settings his language is still as stilted as the language of a treaty.

On a related issue, his accent is atrocious, and he came to America as a teenager. It's just proof that most people who learn a language after about the age of fourteen are incapable of speaking the language with a "native" accent, although the closer the native language is to the learned one the easier it is to approximate the "native" accent. The only people who can really do it are those who have a real "ear" for language. Now, don't ask me to explain that, and no, I don't have an "accent" in English! Well, that's not true. I have what I've been told is a regional western New England accent. I got my first professional job because of it. Well, only partly I hope. My employers were thrilled that unlike so many of their applicants I didn't have a "New York" accent. However, I can do very passable imitations of a Boston accent, a New York accent, and, of course, a southern accent. I'm pretty good at mimicking English as spoken with various foreign accents too. In another life, I would have liked to be an actress.:smile:

There, that's enough self-revelation for one day.

Echetlaeus
19-04-14, 17:33
Angela, yeah that is the picture that I had in mind.

Now, for English you are absolutely right. I am not a native and I have an accent. Actually I will never be able to speak like an American, and frankly speaking, I don't want to. When I said about the grammar I did not mean that you do not know how to write, but maybe this is a specific, inmost procedure, that makes you act like that, for example when you say: "Me thinks that ... "

By the way, I like your analysis and the words that you used. To me this kind of writing is quite difficult though, for I come from a Mathematical background.

P.S.1 It was a grave mistake to misspell Carl Jung's name. I do apologise.
P.S.2 Have you seen "The Wolf of Wall Street"? If the Boston accent is the one that his wife uses, I absolutely hate it. It sound so very low level in my ears. I prefer mostly the so called BBC English.

Engel
19-04-14, 19:02
Lol. Its starting to look like a dating thread

Angela
19-04-14, 22:45
Lol. Its starting to look like a dating thread

That's disgusting. Seriously, grow up. And develop some wit and finesse while you're at it.

Echetlaeus
19-04-14, 23:52
Lol. Its starting to look like a dating thread

What do you mean breh? Please elaborate in great detail!

Angela
20-04-14, 00:28
Angela, yeah that is the picture that I had in mind.

Now, for English you are absolutely right. I am not a native and I have an accent. Actually I will never be able to speak like an American, and frankly speaking, I don't want to. When I said about the grammar I did not mean that you do not know how to write, but maybe this is a specific, inmost procedure, that makes you act like that, for example when you say: "Me thinks that ... "

By the way, I like your analysis and the words that you used. To me this kind of writing is quite difficult though, for I come from a Mathematical background.

P.S.1 It was a grave mistake to misspell Carl Jung's name. I do apologise.
P.S.2 Have you seen "The Wolf of Wall Street"? If the Boston accent is the one that his wife uses, I absolutely hate it. It sound so very low level in my ears. I prefer mostly the so called BBC English.

It was a lame allusion to Shakespearean English. Sometimes they're snippets from literature or movies or music or pop culture or whatever. I'm just amusing myself, mostly. I have to stop doing it on an international forum.

Jordan's second wife was from Bayridge/Bensonhurst, Brooklyn, and the actress was trying to approximate the accent of that area. I don't think she did a particularly good job of it.

This is a Boston accent:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QENmT5c1vw

And this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi2BjFrCsTs

"New Yawk" has a number of different, although related accents. They differ more by ethnic group than neighborhood, I think.

There's the Irish New York type of accent:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grUmDyHDS5c

Then there's the Italian New York accent in an exaggerated, stereotypical way as done in My Cousin Vinny. Marisa Tomei is hysterically funny in it, I think...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBawB6fFhmE

Or, of course, as done a little less broadly by Robert De Niro in films like Taxi Driver. Julia should have posted it when she got attacked on the other thread!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQkpes3dgzg

Then we have the New York Jewish accent as done by Fran Drescher...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xkp7wsJc8MI

And more subtly on Seinfeld...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVqBzP0xdKk

Then you have the Jenny From The Block Puerto Rican New York sound, and on and on..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LOISuVNfvI

Oh, this is the Philadelphia accent as done by Bradley Cooper. He used it less broadly in Silver Linings Playbook, one of my new "favorite" movies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP1QEA954yA

FWIW, the Greek Americans of Astoria just sound like the rest of the Queens people to me.

If you keep on encouraging the "peanut gallery"...I almost didn't post this...

Echetlaeus
20-04-14, 00:53
Thanks for devoting some time clarifying these stuff to me. Generally I prefer the word to be spoken in a proper way. Not pronouncing the "r's", "h's" etc. may be perceived as a sign of laziness.
Okay, the Greeks of Astoria are 4+ generation, that is, completely Americanised. In a sense, and I am really to say that :sad-2:, they have nothing to do with motherland !

I have seen the movie that is one of your favourites, yet I do not understand the hype. I found it mediocre. The female character, Jennifer Lawrence is "overpriced" imho and it was a mistake to get the Academy Award in that young age. I found her performing better in "Winter's bone" though. Yeah, generally I am not into these kind of movies. If I want romance, I would prefer to watch "epoch movies", like those taking place in the 19th century.


I will not feed the "peanut gallery" (bthw I didn't know what this phrase meant, but I found out).

As far as the American accents are concerned, I follow this lady (she is superb in my opinion). From her accents, I like particularly the Southern (e.g., New Orleans), for I find it very proper for women (erotic in a sense or very music like). Here she is:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NriDTxseog

Angela
20-04-14, 01:51
[QUOTE=Echetlaeus;430001]
Okay, the Greeks of Astoria are 4+ generation, that is, completely Americanised. In a sense, and I am really to say that :sad-2:, they have nothing to do with motherland !

Uh...you can't mean Astoria, Queens. It's by no means only full of third and fourth generation Greek-Americans. Even in my suburban town, where we have quite a contingent of Greek Americans, a good percentage of even the young ones are rather recent immigrants.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Nllig-isIo

I do quite admire how even third generation Greek-Americans send their children to Greek school every week and to Greece for the summer. Surely you know they do that? They do say, though, that they're considered quite traditional by the "Greek-Greeks".

You must also know that inter-marriage with non-Greeks is still quite frowned upon even in these long resident multi-generation hyphenated Americans. A great deal of their social life revolves around the big Greek Orthodox churches.

That's not the case with Italian-Americans at all. The third generation almost never speaks any Italian, and there has been, and continues to be so much inter-marriage that I doubt Italian-Americans as an actual group will exist in thirty years time.

Echetlaeus
20-04-14, 02:00
That's very promising, I almost cried. I have met the wrong people here probably. The old guy is speaking with the old Greek way actually ... :embarassed:

Engel
20-04-14, 06:24
That's disgusting. Seriously, grow up. And develop some wit and finesse while you're at it.

But of course Madam. Point taken and reciprocated.
Queens English btw

MOESAN
20-04-14, 14:30
Well, I did say my opinion changed when I saw her full face, but as I've also said, I have a long way to go with this classification business. :smile:

Also, whatever the origins of her particular traits, she still looks southern European to me.

@Julia
Whatever the case may be for this particular woman, I assure you that very dark brown hair can occur in nature with very fair skin. Trust me on this one.
6380

Angela, my answer was about the first picture posted here - she shows very few of what I call 'mediterranean' (typology, not geography) - that to be sure we are speaking about the same person -
concerning dark hair associated to light skin, I agree it exists, apparently without recent ececrossing-overs...

Mars
20-04-14, 22:15
That woman looks balkanic, or centre-southeastern Europe in any case. She can pass in Italy too, to a certain extent.

MOESAN
20-04-14, 23:02
Balkans is not a type definition - only a place - and persons and populations types means are very varied in Balkans according to countries but also to regions: some Bulgars people of 'high stature longfaced 'mediterranean' type are common in Bulgarian region when in other regions they are uncommon, giving place to more brachycephalic types of diverse types ('alpine' short faced and 'dinaroid' type, and others too... and evidently no region is purely homogenous! so I find interesting to try to discover the different components in a person whatever the region where he lives -
to resume I 'd say: this woman (greek) is at the opposite of the typical 'mediterranean' people WHATEVER THE SUBTYPE, unless we speak about some pre-neolithical population - the fact that persons with this features can be found in Southern Europe does not make them true 'mediterraneans' -
just to make me understandable (if I got it)
by the way, a lot of Bulgarian, phenotypically, are close to eastern Greeks when others like other Greeks show more south-slavic mixtures ('alpine', 'dinaric', 'nordic' and somekind of brünnoid borreby's' as dominant not excluding rare cases), being the Greeks less influenced by the depigmented ones, principally 'nordic' and 'borreby'

oreo_cookie
25-04-14, 09:23
Like most Greeks she passes well in central-southern Italy, as well as the southern Balkans (Serbia, Macedonia, Bulgaria).

Angela
25-04-14, 16:54
Balkans is not a type definition - only a place - and persons and populations types means are very varied in Balkans according to countries but also to regions: some Bulgars people of 'high stature longfaced 'mediterranean' type are common in Bulgarian region when in other regions they are uncommon, giving place to more brachycephalic types of diverse types ('alpine' short faced and 'dinaroid' type, and others too... and evidently no region is purely homogenous! so I find interesting to try to discover the different components in a person whatever the region where he lives -
to resume I 'd say: this woman (greek) is at the opposite of the typical 'mediterranean' people WHATEVER THE SUBTYPE, unless we speak about some pre-neolithical population - the fact that persons with this features can be found in Southern Europe does not make them true 'mediterraneans' -
just to make me understandable (if I got it)
by the way, a lot of Bulgarian, phenotypically, are close to eastern Greeks when others like other Greeks show more south-slavic mixtures ('alpine', 'dinaric', 'nordic' and somekind of brünnoid borreby's' as dominant not excluding rare cases), being the Greeks less influenced by the depigmented ones, principally 'nordic' and 'borreby'

I agree with you. "Classifications" are one thing, and whether someone has a recognizable "look" in a certain region or country is another. People confuse the two all the time.

Just in general too, some people playing this parlor game take it way too seriously. I also find it quite amusing how much certitude about phenotype is displayed by people who've never been in the region or country in question in their entire lives, and especially if it's a country that has a lot of diversity.:laughing: I don't count a two week guided tour as being in the country for these purposes.:useless: